Latest / The Accounting Leads Now Podcast / The Business Model You’re Using Is Outdated (Here's How to Fix It) - with Michael Ly

Transcript

The Business Model You’re Using Is Outdated (Here's How to Fix It) - with Michael Ly · The Accounting Leads Now Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: What happens when a small business owner walks into an accounting firm and leaves with more questions than answers?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: For today's guest, that wasn't just frustrating.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was the spark for something bigger.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: He saw the mess under the hood of hundreds of small businesses, disorganized books, reactive advisors, broken systems, and decide to build something better.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: What started as a bookkeeping solution quickly became one of the most recognized modern accounting firms in the country with the mission to serve 10,000 businesses and impact 100,000 jobs.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: We met recently at Women Who Count, the Women Who Count event in Mesa, and right away I knew this conversation had to happen.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Since then, we've had the privilege of partnering with this firm behind the scenes, and today I'm pulling the curtains back on the real story behind Reconciled.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: We get into hyper growth, team turnover, the belief that almost broke him, and why he's convinced time and materials billing is killing the industry.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Here's my conversation with Michael Lee.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Michael, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited for this one.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: How have you been?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Good, man.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks for having me on and uh happy holidays.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Happy holidays to you as well.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, Michael, it's been a couple weeks.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um we met we met in Mesa.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: You toured me around countless times through Scott Stale and Tempe.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Had an absolute blast doing that.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: You convinced me to come over to Vegas for the for the Connect uh conference.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for doing that.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was super eye-opening, and I mean I can't wait to get back to Arizona.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I hope I hope you come back soon.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of fun.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um this is my home state where I was born and raised, and whenever I'm here, I love hosting people and showing them around.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So um I'm glad I'm glad you took a chance to spend some time with me.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people can't brave that or don't.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh and then and then to to do that again and to do that in Vegas, uh, that was brave of you.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, thanks for doing that.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: It was awesome.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: So uh let's let's dive right into it.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um I want to hear uh your hot take right away.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: You you've said you strongly disagree with time and materials building.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's open there.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: What uh why is it broken and and what should replace it?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so the the the concept of time and material bill in of itself uh assumes um that there is a limited value on the time in which you can bill uh the value in which you can bill for your time.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Then it's a matter of well, how much do you think you can bill and what do you think it's worth?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then like any market, the market sets a standard rate, and all of a sudden now you've got this rate that everyone assumes.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I like to make the synonyms to the restaurant industry a lot.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, Chinese restaurants and Japanese restaurants buy from the same suppliers, they literally buy the same ingredients.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're actually owned.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: M most Chin Japanese restaurants in the United States are owned by Chinese people, but all Chinese business restaurant owners know you can charge more money for Japanese food than for Chinese food.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And why is that?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's because the market has set a value price on that food.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for example.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: So now there's a rare occasion where instance where you get those more expensive Chinese restaurants, like a din Tai Feng, you know, something like that.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: But pretty commonly, most of the Chinese restaurants in your area, the American ones, the Canadian ones, they're cheap Chinese restaurants.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can get a meal for under 15 bucks, under 20 bucks, under 10 bucks.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Most Japanese restaurants are not like that.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so they somehow set the value of their food at a higher price, and they're both providing you a delicious meal, they're both provide they're both filling your belly with food, uh, but one was able to command a higher price than the other.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So in regards to time and material building, you're just setting a a dollar amount for your time, but who's to say the value that you're giving to the client isn't actually exponentially higher depending on the client you're working with.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I think the value-based billing um is much more superior in our industry because you're actually going to be able to charge and be paid the value for the work that you're providing the customer.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Love that analogy.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's I and also just so informative.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea that they're buying from the same suppliers, and it's I I actually didn't even think about that now until you brought that up that yeah, looking at all, say going to China uh Japanese restaurants, it yeah, it is typically billed a lot higher, and both both meals are delicious, so I love that analogy.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: What was the turning point that led you to launch Reconciled?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Was there a moment where you said this can't wait any longer?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I had been doing fractional CFO work for a number of years when I lived in New England in Burlington, Vermont, and uh every time I went to a client, a small business, and then before that, when I was a you know full-time controller and CFO at different companies, every business I went into, the small business books were usually a mess.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it would usually take a period of time for me to clean them up.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: I would be spending and charging fractional CFO rates and value for that bookkeeping time, and so I kind of felt like this glorified bookkeeper that should be doing more.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I realized, well, there's a gotta be another way to solve this, and so that's when I just decided to launch Reconcile.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: This was the summer of 2015 when I finally got together with my early co-founder for Reconciled, and we met weekly that summer of 15, and I had just this idea of how could I leverage the services that I thought small businesses needed outside of just me providing those.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the concept of Reconcile was born.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and tell me a little bit about the name.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Where did I I think the name just works so great for the industry, but like was that something you played around with for a while?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um how'd you land on Reconciled?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I wouldn't say there was like a lot of magic around it.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: We just literally whiteboarded a bunch of different names and then also looked up domain names that were available.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: At the time, reconciledit.com was the only thing available.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't afford reconciled.com.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was like a uh Orthodox priest or something owned that domain at the time.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I even tried to buy it, but it was just too much money.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Even five grand was gonna be too much for me, right?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I went and got a ten-dollar domain, reconciledit.com, and reconciled.it, um, and ran with that for a number of years.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't until we got recognized by Intuit in 2018 as part of the Firm of the Future global, you know, global award that we were recognized as the Firm of the Future for the US.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so when that happened, I said, hey, look, I don't want to go to the press and globally with Reconciled It.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's just too confusing.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: People thought we were an IT company because IT or it was at the end.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I went out and spent uh I think the 15 or 20 grand to get reconciled.com, made some Orthodox priests really happy, and and got got the domain.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so that was that was you know the kind of the history.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: That was back in 2018 when we finally launched and re you know, took off the it and just rebranded just to Reconciled.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: So cool.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: That pre pre-Chat GPT days to just dump a ton of ideas and keep spitting out uh company names.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So um you went through some major team turnover during a high growth phase.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: How did that season change the way you lead today?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that's a great question.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: I really valued myself as a very relational leader and as a leader that led through authenticity and transparency.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a period of time between uh end of 2020 and through the end of 22 where we were growing at a rapid pace.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we were doubling revenue or growing at least, you know, fifty, seventy-five percent a year.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're just growing.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that was through both organic growth and through acquiring uh accounting firms that we were doing at the time.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh at that time, it was because of that rapid growth, it was really hard to stay in touch with the relational piece of leading like I wanted to.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I really had to shift from being uh a relationship-led leader with everybody on my uh at the company to really focusing on the leadership team.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and at the same time, I also began s um working on another venture, a software company venture, and that took some distraction away from running Reconcile, took some definitely focus away.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that taught me a lot because it really showed me the limitations of honestly my abilities, especially in leading a company.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I understand why uh when investors come to you know evaluate companies, why they really are careful to see if the founder's a hundred percent focused on their venture because it takes a lot of time and mental energy, and it was during that time I also learned about my own breaking point, my own you know, personal limit, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it taught it taught me that one, I'm not invincible, right?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, no matter how much people said to me about that, or no matter what peers said, or they thought that I was just the superhuman that could do everything, that I wasn't.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that I definitely had a a limit a limitation, a breaking point, and I had to learn it the hard way.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it was through broken employee relationships, it was through um not keeping my eye on the ball like I should have, um, and it was it was through, you know, honestly falling short of betraying some of the values that I had during that time in running my company.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it it definitely taught me a lot and it was a big eye-opener for me, especially in the middle to end of 2022.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's so it's so interesting to hear that.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, where do you feel you can look back and almost see where you used to stand on the mountain and maybe how much further up you are now when it comes to leadership growth?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because I like I I only met you like like about a month ago.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: We did get to spend a lot of time together, which was awesome.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: But the first thing that would come to mind and what everyone else described you as is that you know, the glue guy and very relationship driven.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it sounds very surprising for me to hear like that maybe wasn't always you, or like I just I would I'm very curious to know like how much growth you feel like you developed from where you were at then versus where you're at now.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, I I only know this version of you, right?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And twenty as we go into 2026 and what everyone else, you know, all the compliments everyone else was giving.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that yeah, I'm just I'm a little shocked that that was even a thing.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I you know, we're our biggest critics, we're our worst critics, and if you were to ask me from 2015, you know, when I when this was an experiment to the start of this, uh to now, if I were to look back and go, could I have imagined any set of circumstances to have the company I have today?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: That there there was it wasn't in my mind.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: You hope it is, you hope that you know what you're gonna build is gonna become something and there's gonna be this uh this ongoing uh entity, but you that's a dream, right, at that time.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I could not describe to you then all the different experiences, all the relationships, all the people, all the employees, all the customers, all the opportunities that I've gotten to go through.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I I would say, you know, I would say at the time there was probably a lot of very similar descriptions about me about the being the relational glue or being this very, very, you know, very, very energetic, community-oriented person.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things I hadn't gone through yet, and I felt like I hadn't experienced in my career was what I would consider um significant failure or loss objectively, right?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: In the sense of when I when the world were defined something as um a mistake or a big failure, I felt like I experienced and went through that.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I went through that not not just like materially uh or above the surface, I went through that internally and it really hit me, and I felt like I reached I was able to reach over over the next couple years after that, um I was able to to touch what I felt like both spiritual, mental, and emotional bottom, you know, as a human being.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and uh it didn't mean, you know, that was I like you know, addict out or coked out on the floor, you know, drunk and no, it it wasn't like that.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was more there was definitely uh I felt like a loss of something that I thought I had had, whether it was real or not, I thought I had that was in me and it's gone.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: And a part of that is is um I think a big part of that is ego is that there was this probably borderline confidence arrogance piece of me that got taken away, frankly.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: I had to uh I I had to say goodbye to it regardless if I still wanted to keep it or not.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was stripped of me.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that gets quickly stripped of you when the thing that y you value the most, which is just relationships when there are relationships that uh are super important in your life get completely broken apart.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And especially at you know, at Reconciled at my company where I had relationships and people and p people I poured into, leaders, employees that I really cared for and valued and I thought cared for me.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that world got torn apart because growth uh can m make that happen.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Growth can strengthen relationships, it also can ruin relationships.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it did.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, admittedly it did.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a big I had a big part to play in that, so you know, it's not I wasn't perfect in that but also the individuals, my you know, employees and leaders involved are also had a big part to play in that and I I'm not sh sh sh um, you know, scared to share about that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's something that I think every great leader goes through this experience.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it doesn't it can it can break a company, it also can make your company stronger for the next stage of growth.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it can break a human being and also can make you as an in human being stronger for your neck your next stage of growth.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so I feel like I've been on this rebuilding phase of my life for the past couple years since then, where I'm really rebuilding um who I am, you know, making trying to make myself stronger and also really uh focus on what really matters and is important to me.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: But also really building the relationships that did stay.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because those relationships were impacted.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: The ones that did stay, the ones that nothing happened bad except for the fact that I've showed up as a different human being for a period of time, I need now to rework on those and to rebuild rebuild those.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and in the midst of that, still found myself, what's the one character or one key strength I had is it's still it's still building relationships.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so even in that, even though I messed up made mistakes, it's still an area of my strength I leverage where that's how I met you, right?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's just met you and and and didn't approach you as oh, you're a vendor, what you can you do for me.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was more like, hey, tell me about yourself.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: What are you trying to do?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um I want to get excited about you as a human being.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I care about.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And hey, if it happens that our businesses can cross paths and do something that are great, but otherwise, I'd like to to see how I can connect with you human to human through this.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we said a little hiccup there in the the audio.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: You still still with me, Michael?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm still with you.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Where where did we last stop?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think think we're good.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a little uh it got a little robotic there just as you're talking about how we met, but uh we should uh Yeah, it should be good.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's great.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well yeah, that's that's the that's technology, right?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's technology, right?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're uh we're we're testing, so for all the listeners, we're actually testing on a new platform here today for the recording, so you'll have to let us know.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Audio sounds minus that uh 10 second clip.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well yeah, but yeah, I was just I was gonna say I'll repeat what I said was you know, even in the midst of all of that re what I feel like is a rebuilding phase right now for myself, you know, personally as a human being, um and really trying to understand what matters to me, what's important to me.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: In that I'm still using the strength of me of of of community building, relationship building, and that's how I met how I met you.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I met you at a dinner, right?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really care.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was cool what you did, but that's not why I cared to connect with you.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: What I cared to connect with was like, who are you as a human being?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And um like you're in my you're in my hometown, I want to show you a good time, I want to be hospitable.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of like how I lead just as a as a person, uh no matter what what who the person is or what the situation is.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then if it ho happens that we can benefit each other business wise, that's awesome too.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't dictate the relationship I want to build with you as a human being.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um so and and I think you probably see that, understand that, and I think most of the people that know me understand that as well.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Shout out to Scottsdale, I think it's the the best place.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I appreciate you sharing that, Michael, and and I'll I'll just add in there that all all those setbacks and that makes for a significantly better story, right?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Or a better movie.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like no one would go into the theater, watch a movie, and the the main character has no setbacks, no hardships, and they're just successful at the end.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: That would be the worst movie ever.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: You just don't you just don't hope for the setbacks on people.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, you're right, like no great no person becomes great, and no character is refined without setbacks.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's a part of life.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not a matter of if it's if it's when.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when is the setback going to happen?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um and everyone's setback is relative in regards to seriousness and impact, and we all get a different levels of setbacks in our lives.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I, you know, I don't I don't believe I'm a victim in really a lot of it.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's just a part of life.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a part of what God has put before me in my life, and um it's a part of my journey through all this.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you sharing that.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to get into uh a little bit of a a different kind of shift here, but beyond billing models, what's one belief about firm growth or tech that you think the industry is totally getting wrong?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's that's great.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that uh tech companies right now, the the big thing right now is is talking about the displacement of accountants and with AI.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that most of us are overestimating how fast technology adoption is going to occur in the accounting industry.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think we forget how slow accountants and accounting firms are to adopting the newest technology.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because you have an industry that's conservative in nature.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: It we we have conservative it's a current nature and it draws people who generally are more conservative in nature because we are are dealing with rules that are fairly black and white on many ways, but also we're dealing with a very important piece of the economy and people's wealth, which is their their accounting and their finances.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so generally speaking, people don't make flippant decisions and quick decisions.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I know this because people are willing to deal with the most non techie accountant in their life for years.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Even though everything else in their life is technology s you know, technology forward, they're shopping on Amazon, they're online banking, they're doing using Zell, they're using Zvenmo, they're doing everything, they don't even have checks anymore.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: But what are the what are they willing to do?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Follow and fill out an Old school work paper from the accountant, drop off physical forms to an accountant.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh people are still writing or willing to write checks to their landlord to pay rent.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I think people uh I think people r uh are are overestimating the adoption rate in which AI is going to impact.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now is AI gonna have a real impact?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're just overestimating how fast, but we're probably underestimating how big the impact will be when it does hit.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: When it does hit, it'll be significant.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: It just it's just gonna take a l a lot longer time.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think we're uh we underestimate how slow the our uh our US government's gonna move because a lot of the data issues around accounting relate to two things.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: The IRS has an outdated system, a very outdated one, that hasn't been updated.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and Lord knows when it will be.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: We have tax software that still lives in the nineteen nineties, you know, where Windows ninety-five wants its user interface back, like that's what tax software looks like is 3.1 and Windows 95.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's still and it's 2025, and I'm not aware of any new UX happening anytime soon, and these tax software platforms dominate the industry.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then the lastly, there's no unified API data format for banking.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: So to download banking credit card information, we're v very much unlike we're not like other countries where there's like a unified platform or there's like five banks only in the whole country.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: We've got thousands and thousands of banks and credit credit unions and credit card institutions that have to share data and it's not unified.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's gonna take a while, I think.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now, will once it does hit, will the impact be significant?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it'll be very significant, I think, but um it's gonna take time, especially especially as as you move to more complex accounting and accrual-based accounting, it's just gonna take a lot of time.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's that's so wise of like how because everyone loves the buzzword AI now.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't tell you how many calls I get on with people or just speak to me, like, yeah, well they got AI.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, that's so broad.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And like, what about that is getting you excited?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'm such a firm believer that we're regardless of how much AI will come and take the jobs of bookkeepers and accountants, it will never replace the relationships that you have with your clients and your vendors and your customers because AI can't do that.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: AI is is the computer and it can do a lot of really cool things, it can check for errors and it can make things more efficient, but like it's the human-to-human contact that I don't know if that will really ever be replaced.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people love connecting with other humans, and AI will not replace that.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's you know, it's it's taking it's still taking a long time for telemedicine to take over, you know, and and most people still would rather go to a doctor or nurse practitioner in person and meet with them, even though ninety-five ninety-nine percent of the things that are gonna happen could occur over Teledoc.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: But what happens is you move to a town and you go find a local doctor, right?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: You go to an urgent care center, you go somewhere when Teledoc is literally practically free for most of us now on our phones, we can get prescribed the medicine through it, and yet most of us don't use it.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so there's something to say about human behavior that we underestimate.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: But once it does hit, it'll be overwhelming.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just gonna take a while.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's just gonna take a while, and and so that's where you have to we have to play in the tension of the in-between as a service provider to go, well, where are my clients at?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Where where are they at?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: If if you're serving clients, you know, that are predominantly boomers in their late 60s and 70s, you know, you're probably not gonna want to introduce the latest and greatest technology.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna want to deal with that.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: They just want to be able to talk to a human being.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: You might be one of the few human beings to talk to you that week or month, anyways, as a service provider, right?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're dealing with a much younger population um of client who is more tech savvy, who honestly they'd rather just talk to a chat bot and maybe you set up a chat bot and you're the one behind that chatbot talking, or you set up an FAQ with all the most frequent questions and answers, and people want to do it themselves.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there is a population for that, but they don't make up the majority of the population yet, right?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you still have the large, large boomer population, still business owners, still with a lot of wealth, we're still serving.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have the large gen uh you know uh millennial generation, and they're the ones that's slipping in between who wants to be tech savvy and not uh in regards to being provided a service.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think you're gonna see also more and more higher money spent on higher touch services.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: People are gonna actually value human touch.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna you know, you're gonna pay more so that I can get a one-on-one human-to-human contact um because you're gonna be sick of everything else that you have to deal with that's automated.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I wanna I want to talk to human.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you why do you pay for higher price for personal training where you can get a personal training regiment on your phone?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: You get it because you get the human-to-human contact.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: The accountability's right there, and it's a you it's a fellow human, you get the look in the eye.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that's important to people still.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Human behavior still still values that.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's such a good analogy with the the in-person trainer versus yeah, you can you can download, there's a million apps out there.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can you can get your AI trainer.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's all gonna be the same exercise, but yeah, you just have that accountability.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: People like that, that human-to-human aspect.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'm curious, Michael, um, you experienced a time where you had a revenue decline.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: What moved the needle and what are you most proud of from that chapter?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so uh the the period of revenue decline, you know, the big part of it, a big part of it was calling through customers that were no longer a fit for us, um, especially ones that we had acquired from the firms we acquired.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the firms we acquired, their average monthly revenue, if we were to convert their time and material to average, was m significantly lower than ours.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um sometimes fifty um fifty to seventy percent lower than ours.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we had to do a uh uh intentional job of increasing prices, and by doing that, uh we definitely culled through customers that were lower lower paying or really not profitable for us.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then and then secondly, I think the market shifted a lot during the past couple years.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: A lot more competition came into play.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: It became a lot harder to to find enough new clients to replace churn.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so we learned a lot we we learned a lot from that.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things one of the big things I learned is that uh increasing prices shouldn't is not is not should not be as scary as we think it is.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I just read a stat recently on average, for every ten percent of price increase that you give, you only lose six to seven per six to seven percent of your clients.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you get this significant revenue bump.
• 27:47
  unknown: Uh-huh.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: The usually the lowest the lowest paying clo number of clients, that's the percentage you lose, and then your profitability goes up and you have less clients to worry about.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it seems like a win-win, and the the the firms that are staying resilient in especially have stayed resilient over the past couple years during this kind of post-COVID era, and also are gonna say resilient resilient future, are gonna be more aggressive with making sure they're priced at the value they're providing in the market, and that they're not lower too low priced.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: But unfortunately, there's just too many firms too low priced, and there's accountants willing to do just super low price work at a at at a at a rate I think that is abysmal.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so the firms that are are willing to be resilient and just stay convicted on the value they provide, keep those price increases going, they'll they'll continue to see revenue and profits increase.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I had two questions left, but I gotta add in an extra one here to touch on that, because I think this is huge for so many people.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: When when do you raise prices?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh is it once a year?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: What percentage uh should you be looking at raising prices?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I love that it shouldn't be as scary as it is.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then the last question is do you raise prices for for older clients or is it only new clients that come in?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to hear your take on this.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we raise prices across the board on everybody.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So first off, just because a client is legacy doesn't mean they should be able to get, you know, what many firms have the the the friends and family or the early the early client.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of a lot of people think it's because, well, they were loyal to me, they started out with me when I was small, or they they were this or that.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And there are just not many examples where that's just a reality.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Also, there's the I love the one where it's like, well, if I give this person a low price, they'll give me a lot of referrals.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: It never happens.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: It just never happens.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: So uh because you're not paying them to be your salesperson.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: There that's just the reality.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um we cla we race price across the board.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: We do at minimum annually and and definitely review the clients that are pretty much stable companies, we review them annually, and we do pretty consistent price raises every year, usually around five to ten percent of price increases.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: The clients that are big that we know are growing fast, we actually evaluate them every three to six months.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's a client that's growing fast that we believe, hey, the scope's probably gonna change uh fairly consistently, let's go ahead and do a 90-day review or every six month review, and and that means touching based on their contract, touching based on the services we're providing, and and then obviously getting a pulse from the customer, how are we doing?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Are they really happy with us?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do they find we you know exceeding the value that we're providing that we said we would?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that when we bring the price increase, they would be more than excited, you know, to pay to pay more.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And is there more we can do for them?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Almost every single time that we do a price increase, we do remind customers here's what we've done, and here's what we'll continue to do, and also here's what we'd like to add if if we think the price increases is you know gonna be more than 10%.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Here are the th here are the additional things we would like to provide you to continue to show value in this process.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: That that last piece of here's the extra stuff that we want to add in.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it now it's it's not just an increase in price, there's an increase in value, like you said.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: How do you frame that to when you go across the board?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm guessing it's not, hey Bob, things go up ten percent next month, uh, all the best.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, we we we tell we tell, you know, we remind individuals, hey, the cost of doing business is going up, uh, that the the talent that we have, especially the talent we have prov serving them, um has we have to, you know, uh the cost for them increases because we have to give them raises, we want to continue to reward them.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: But we also want to stay up to date on the latest technology, we want to update their tech stack.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we do all these things that we absorb and we're we're basically making sure we keep our prices high enough so that we keep the profitability for the company to continue to run.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it it it's it's that's framed so well, and also it comes back to the most important thing.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's framed to your client's benefit.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Why why is this even happening?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's not for you guys to line your pockets, it's to keep that level of service that they're accustomed to and and ideally make the service even better.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm hearing.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: So two two more questions for you, Michael.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know I've taken up uh a little bit more of your time than originally carved out, but I would love to hear what are you most focused on building next, whether that be inside reconcile or or or beyond beyond it.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so one of the things I've been working on and um I've been kind of passionate about is investing in the next generation of firm owners as well as investing in the next generation of founders building software in our space.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's two areas in which um I've I've focused a lot of time on is I actually actively coach new firm owners and firm owners that have stagnant firms or firms that they want transformed.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: They reach out to me personally.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't usually market that uh anywhere.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: People just reach out to me personally as they get to know me and say, hey, I'd love to have a coaching or mentoring relationship with you.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so we we I put that together for them.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And usually you have anywhere from you know, you're from a handful to a dozen clients at a time that I'm coaching one-on-one.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other side, I'm focused on investing and meeting with founders building in the software space for our space, for accounting space.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um some of them contract me as a consultant to help them with go-to-market and introductions to the right accounting partners.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them uh are raising money and they want an angel investment, um, and so I do that.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or some of them are trying to raise a bigger round and I try to help facilitate introductions to other investors um as well.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's you know, that's kind of the two sides that I'm uh heavily focused on.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, last question for you.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And to find smarter people to come work alongside you.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: So simple.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's so simple, but it it it really it carries so much weight.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think too many people they do they yeah, they just take everything way too seriously.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like just have have fun, and it's like everything's gonna be okay.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: That that's what I hear when when I hear that from you, and then when I hear other people say that, I'm like, yeah, just have a laugh.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's all good.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, yeah.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, yeah, I mean, this is about fun, right?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, is we want to have fun, and that's why I'm in it.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, I'd be doing something else.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you like to have fun.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: I've been I've got to be able to witness that firsthand experience that with you.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, Michael, thank you so much for coming on.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: You you you shared so much knowledge, it's been an absolute pleasure getting to know you.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm really excited about what you know working with you, what that is going to look like, and just seeing you at more and more events, and yeah, just being connected with you.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's been great.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of your knowledge.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Where's the best place people can get in touch with you if they want to continue the conversation with you?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: LinkedIn's probably the easiest.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Just go to LinkedIn.com and look for Michael Lee.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: I have a little fire emoji in front of my name that helps people um find me easily.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: So look me up and um we'll in a connect and chat.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Michael.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, James.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of CFO Chronicles, the secrets behind success.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you found value in today's conversation.
• 35:11
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• 35:14
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• 35:18
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• 35:22
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• 35:24
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• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: If you try to position yourself as the advisor, your clients need.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to stay up to date on what's happening in the world of accounting and financial growth.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: We've got exciting topics coming up, so stay tuned for the next episode of CFO Chronicles.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, keep pushing forward.
• 35:51
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• 35:55
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• 36:00
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• 36:06
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• 36:11
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• 36:15
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• 36:20
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