Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1106 - Love Your Guts With Karina Savage

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#1106 - Love Your Guts With Karina Savage · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: wants answers now.
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  Speaker 1: Last week on the Happy Families Podcast, I had a
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  Speaker 1: fascinating and really delightful conversation with Karina Savage. Karina is
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  Speaker 1: a pediatric dietitian. She runs Nourishing Kids. You can find
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  Speaker 1: her at Nourish with Karina dot com. Linked to that
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  Speaker 1: in the show notes. But we almost talked about something
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  Speaker 1: that I have always wanted to know about. I've nearly
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  Speaker 1: bought several books about it, but I just I'm not
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  Speaker 1: a dietitian and I don't really want to spend ten
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  Speaker 1: hours and two hundred and fifty pages reading about it.
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  Speaker 1: I just want somebody to give me the facts, especially
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  Speaker 1: as it relates to kids. And Karina said she'd come
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  Speaker 1: back and do that, and so this podcast really for me.
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  Speaker 1: I'm being a little bit selfish, but we'll make it
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  Speaker 1: about parenting. We'll make it about kids as well. But
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  Speaker 1: really I just want to know about this gut byome
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  Speaker 1: thing because I've been told if I have a healthy
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  Speaker 1: guard then I'm gonna, i don't know, do better in
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  Speaker 1: life or something. I don't really get it. I think
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to sleep better, or my brain's going to
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  Speaker 1: work better, I'll have more energy. I don't get it.
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  Speaker 1: I don't even know what my gut biome is. Karina
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  Speaker 1: Savage is going to help me with that. Karina, thanks
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  Speaker 1: for joining me today again.
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  Speaker 3: Pleasure so great to be here.
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  Speaker 1: So you've been a pediatric dietitian for twenty three years
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  Speaker 1: and when I mentioned gut biome stuff, your eyes lit
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  Speaker 1: up and you said, oh my goodness, We've got to
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  Speaker 1: talk about that, And of course we got too busy
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  Speaker 1: talking about other things. If I'm brand new to this idea,
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  Speaker 1: I haven't even heard the word. Or maybe I've heard
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  Speaker 1: people talk about having a healthy gut, but I don't
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  Speaker 1: really get what this biome thing is. In other words,
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  Speaker 1: if my name is Justin cole Someoni, I'm now talking
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  Speaker 1: to a dietician about it, give us the like the
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  Speaker 1: thirty second reader's digest version of it. What is the
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  Speaker 1: gut biome?
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  Speaker 3: So, the gut biome or the gut microbiome is really
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  Speaker 3: to do with the bacterial communities in your gut.
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  Speaker 1: This is the whole proboi its sort of thing. Is
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  Speaker 1: that what you're talking about?
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  Speaker 3: Yees? So it's to do with the bacteria in your gut,
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  Speaker 3: because we have a lot of bacteria in our gut,
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  Speaker 3: like gazillions affect AGAP and what we want is we
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  Speaker 3: want a really good balance of the good bugs and
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  Speaker 3: the bad bugs in our guts.
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  Speaker 1: So that so we want bad bugs in our gut,
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  Speaker 1: a balance, Yes, we.
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  Speaker 3: Want a balance, yeah mostly, but we want that balance
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  Speaker 3: because you really need. It's what we call symbiosis, where
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  Speaker 3: there's a balance of the good and the bad bugs
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  Speaker 3: and everything is in balance, everything is in I guess well,
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  Speaker 3: the terminology is symbiosis. So it's a dis biosis when
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  Speaker 3: we have an imbalance of the good bugs and the
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  Speaker 3: bad bugs, when more of the bad bugs are populating
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  Speaker 3: and growing, and a poor diet will contribute to that.
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  Speaker 3: But there are many factors that influence our gut microbiome
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  Speaker 3: and we try to rectify it by taking probiotics to
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  Speaker 3: put more of the good bugs in. There as many factors.
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  Speaker 3: So right from when you're in utero is when your
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  Speaker 3: gut microbiome starts developing and we are influenced by multiple
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  Speaker 3: factors to do with our mother in utero then and
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  Speaker 3: we are born. Our motive delivery impacts. I got microbiome.
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  Speaker 3: I've heard.
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  Speaker 1: I've heard about this. So if you're if you're if
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  Speaker 1: you're a Caesar baby versus a vaginal birth baby, your
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  Speaker 1: biome changes, like you have a different micro biome depending
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  Speaker 1: on how you're actually born.
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  Speaker 3: Correct, So when you're born vaginally, you pick up microbes
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  Speaker 3: associated with your mother down that end, and then when
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  Speaker 3: you're born abbat sun route you pick up microbes associated
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  Speaker 3: with the skin and the hospital environment. And there's been
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  Speaker 3: a lot of research into this and then linked to
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  Speaker 3: increased risk of allergies, obesity and whatnot with the different
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  Speaker 3: modive delivery.
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  Speaker 1: And now that we're not that we're.
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  Speaker 2: Trying to shame any parents who have had a Caesar
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  Speaker 2: because sometimes you're just going to baby and you turn
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  Speaker 2: it out fine, right, Wow, When I have these conversations
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  Speaker 2: or not about this, but about these kinds of topics,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of people will there's shame and guilt around.
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  Speaker 1: All the sort of stuff. We're not, We're just we're
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  Speaker 1: just hollowing. There's risks associated one thing that don't exist
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  Speaker 1: with the other thing that's not We're not throwing shaded anyway.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely, And yes, sorry, I was going to say at
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  Speaker 3: the end of the day, the most important thing is
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  Speaker 3: the baby's born healthy. Right, So, like you know, there's
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  Speaker 3: absolutely no guilt of shame. Korea.
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  Speaker 1: Tell me this, What are the benefits to having a symbiotic?
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  Speaker 1: Here we go, I'm using all my big words and
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  Speaker 1: I just love it. What are the benefits of having
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  Speaker 1: a symbiotic gut microbiome.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so when you've got a symbio, a healthy gut microbiome,
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  Speaker 3: your immune system is working much better. Because most of
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  Speaker 3: our immune system, about seventy percent of our immune system,
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  Speaker 3: is actually in the gastro intestinal tract. So what we
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  Speaker 3: want is we want our cells in our gut to
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  Speaker 3: have tight cell junctions. We want a thick mucus layer,
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  Speaker 3: and that helps protect all the baddies. So when we eat,
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  Speaker 3: you know what we eat food, we breathe and we
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  Speaker 3: get exposed to viruses and bugs all the time. But
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  Speaker 3: what happens is they go into our gut. Our immune
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  Speaker 3: system works, it keeps them out. We poo them out again. Right,
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  Speaker 3: it's when we've got a loose cell junctions, we get
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  Speaker 3: a leaky gut. When I'm because is not thick and
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  Speaker 3: protecting our our body as it should. Be that's when
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  Speaker 3: we're more prone to getting sick. And so that's why
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  Speaker 3: we need a strong gut micro and we need strong
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  Speaker 3: gut health because that's most of where our immune system
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  Speaker 3: is now. Our microbes also are like messengers, so when
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  Speaker 3: they metabolize food, they also produce messages and metabolized and
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  Speaker 3: that impacts there's a gut brain axis. It impacts so
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  Speaker 3: many parts about health.
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  Speaker 1: All right, this is fascinating to me. I have seventy
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  Speaker 1: three questions for you based on what you just said.
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  Speaker 1: Let's go bit by bit something that I've noticed. I'm
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  Speaker 1: just a person who I only get sick once or
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  Speaker 1: twice a year. It's usually because I'm run down, it's
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  Speaker 1: because I'm exhausted. But I've witnessed I've watched friends of
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  Speaker 1: the family or whatever over the years, and they're always sick.
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  Speaker 1: The kids are always sick people. And so what I'm
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  Speaker 1: hearing you say is much of this could be linked
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  Speaker 1: to gut biome health, which therefore is linked to the
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  Speaker 1: way we're eating. And that's the fundamental if we get
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  Speaker 1: our diet right. And my diet is not fabulous, but
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  Speaker 1: it's let me rephrase, I've actually got a pretty good diet,
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  Speaker 1: but I chuck a bit of bad food in there
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  Speaker 1: with all the good stuff. Yeah, but if somebody is
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  Speaker 1: not getting all the good stuff, then they're throwing their
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  Speaker 1: gut out of balance. It's no longer symbiotic. It's what
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  Speaker 1: did you say, ds biotic dysbiotic?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, imbalance right? Done? Well, Well, I'm trying to be
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  Speaker 1: a quick learner here. So how do we get a
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  Speaker 1: healthy gut? How do we get our gut healthy so
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  Speaker 1: that we can not get crook every time somebody sneezes
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  Speaker 1: near us?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah? So, as I said, those first three years are
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  Speaker 3: pretty influential in setting up a really healthy immune system
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  Speaker 3: that effectively puts a health stamp on us. But then
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  Speaker 3: from then on healthy diet, basically using probotics if needed.
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  Speaker 3: I use probiotics in certain cases, especially in the allergy world.
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  Speaker 3: I've got lots of kids with allergies. But it's about
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  Speaker 3: plant foods.
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  Speaker 1: Is it.
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  Speaker 3: The end of the day, you'll hear this word probiotics.
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  Speaker 3: It's the sexy name for fiber. Okay. So plant foods
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  Speaker 3: feed the gut bugs and they populate the good bugs
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  Speaker 3: in our gut. That's really what we need. Junk food
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  Speaker 3: will populate the bad bugs. If we're not feeding fiber
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  Speaker 3: into our gut, then our gut bugs aren't fed, and
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  Speaker 3: then they actually turn on the on our own mucouslayer
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  Speaker 3: and net gut, and that's when it becomes catchy.
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  Speaker 1: So we need fiber.
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  Speaker 3: We need plant foods, So plenty of wholesome fruits, vegebles
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  Speaker 3: and ut seeds, grainy carps, blakis, baked beans, you know,
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  Speaker 3: all of those foods. Oh it's porridge. Putting fiber into
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  Speaker 3: our gut feeds the good bugs and that in turn
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  Speaker 3: keeps our immune systems strong.
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  Speaker 1: I'm hearing you say this and my brain is exploding
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  Speaker 1: because an orange day. I know everyone says an apple
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  Speaker 1: a day keeps the doctor away, but for me, it's
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  Speaker 1: an orange whenever the kids are sick, whenever the kids
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  Speaker 1: have it like a mouth ulcer or a headache or anything.
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  Speaker 1: I'm like, if you just have an orange every day,
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  Speaker 1: you'll be okay. And what I'm hearing you really say
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  Speaker 1: is the orange provides all this fiber, which healthy is
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  Speaker 1: up the microbiome in the dart makes it more symbiotic,
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  Speaker 1: makes it more healthy, and that works. Let me ask
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  Speaker 1: you this. I'm thinking as you're talking about this lack
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  Speaker 1: of health from too much bad food. Inflammation is a
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  Speaker 1: word that popped into my head as you were talking
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  Speaker 1: about this. To what extent do we see inflammation as
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  Speaker 1: a result of a poor biome? Am I in the
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  Speaker 1: right ballpark here? Or is this a totally different thing?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah? So no, Again, poor diet influences with gut microbes
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  Speaker 3: and then that drives inflammation. So poor diet can also
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  Speaker 3: directly impact on inflammation. So high sugar, high food chemicals,
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  Speaker 3: it's all related, absolutely, Okay.
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  Speaker 1: So my sense therefore is that if we can get
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  Speaker 1: more fiber into our kids' diets and into our own diets,
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  Speaker 1: we're going to be healthier. We're going to do better
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  Speaker 1: at school or better at work, to be more energetic,
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  Speaker 1: we're going to sleep better, we're going to have better
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  Speaker 1: immune function. Like, there's no downsides, it's only upside if
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  Speaker 1: we can get that fiber in, which brings me the
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  Speaker 1: big challenging question. I know we sort of touched on
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  Speaker 1: this a bit last week, but as a parent who
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  Speaker 1: has a couple of kids who aren't really big on
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  Speaker 1: eating all of the green leafy vegetables or any vegetables
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  Speaker 1: at all, really and they just like the beige diet.
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  Speaker 1: How do you get that fiber into them? How do
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  Speaker 1: you get them to take that on? I mean, I
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  Speaker 1: know there's hiding food in the lasagna. You can grate
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  Speaker 1: up the zucchini and the carrot and stick in the lasagna,
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  Speaker 1: but they're not getting a lot of zucchini when they're
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  Speaker 1: eating it graded up in the lasagna. So how do
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  Speaker 1: we do this? I mean, one of my kids, when
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  Speaker 1: we have wraps, she'll have a little bit of meat,
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  Speaker 1: complains about it. She takes all the beans out of
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  Speaker 1: it that we put in there, and then she'll have
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  Speaker 1: cheese and pineapple on a white wrap. Okay, And I'm like,
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  Speaker 1: you've gotta have something green, and so she'll put a
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  Speaker 1: spinach leaf on there. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It'll be
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  Speaker 1: this the smallest little piece of green, which she's like,
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  Speaker 1: I've got green. I'm like, du on, that is not
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  Speaker 1: and what I'm hearing you say. If I had the
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  Speaker 1: language for it, I would say that is not feeding
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  Speaker 1: the good, the good pre biomedic, I've for gotten the
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  Speaker 1: words good bugs, good bugs in your gut. That's right,
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  Speaker 1: it's not doing that. So how do we do this?
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  Speaker 1: How do we get them to put the good food
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  Speaker 1: on the wrap. How do we get them to get
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  Speaker 1: the fiber into their body so that they're eating that
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  Speaker 1: food that makes their gut healthy.
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  Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I'd say we need to focus
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  Speaker 3: on small changes done consistently, because over time it will
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  Speaker 3: make a big difference. So I encourage parents to offer
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  Speaker 3: six times a day, whatever they're eating, put a little
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  Speaker 3: bit of color next to it. So next to breakfast,
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  Speaker 3: put a couple of blueberries. Next to their morning tea,
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  Speaker 3: put something that's plant or you know, food or edgeable related,
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  Speaker 3: and not often it's in the lunch box. And often
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  Speaker 3: at schools they do like a crunch and they put
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  Speaker 3: something like that brain break fruit break in their lunch box.
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  Speaker 3: Or if they're at home having a cheese toasty, put
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  Speaker 3: a jerry tomato and a tidy bit of carrot next
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  Speaker 3: to their lunch so they become used to seeing color.
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  Speaker 3: Same with afternoon teat, same with dinner, same with supper.
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  Speaker 3: Making it fun is a good one. Dressing vegetables so
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  Speaker 3: they taste good. I don't mind the mayonnaise lemon and
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  Speaker 3: lemon and olive oil is gray and brocoli. If you
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  Speaker 3: have to put a bit of salt on it doesn't
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  Speaker 3: matter because if it gets them enjoying food, then that's
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  Speaker 3: that's a wind and then you can always pull back
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  Speaker 3: on the salt later. So I think making food fun tasty,
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  Speaker 3: offering it throughout the day is an important one.
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  Speaker 1: You just reminded me. One thing that she will eat
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  Speaker 1: is we get kale, and I can't remember what we
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  Speaker 1: do with it. I think that we sort of shake
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  Speaker 1: it up a little bit of oil or something, just
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  Speaker 1: drizzle it with some oil. Then we stick in the
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  Speaker 1: oven and we create kale chips. Yeah, loves that. Loves that.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe we've just got to do more kale chips and
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  Speaker 1: that sort of stuff.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely, So focus on the positives. I'm like, focus on
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  Speaker 3: what they are eating and build on that. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So even if it's fried in the oven with a
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  Speaker 1: bit of oil or baked in the oven with a
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  Speaker 1: bit of oil whatever and a bit of salt, you're
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  Speaker 1: still saying that they get that fiber into them than
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  Speaker 1: not even if it's got absolutely yeah interesting.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, extraversion olive oil I think is liquid gold. Like
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  Speaker 3: it's amazing. So use as much as that there's no
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  Speaker 3: low fat here, like you're using good fats.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, got it. I love this all right. Something you
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  Speaker 1: said earlier, Karina, is that the first three years is
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  Speaker 1: where the foundations of good gut health are layed. Now,
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  Speaker 1: for many of us, we've already got kids that are
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  Speaker 1: well beyond those first three years, but there are a
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  Speaker 1: lot of podcast listeners who are definitely in that phase
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  Speaker 1: where they've got kids who are I mean, in the
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  Speaker 1: first three years. There's a lot less fussiness, right, kids
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  Speaker 1: kind of almost eat whatever you stick on the high
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  Speaker 1: chair tray. What can parents do with their little kids?
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  Speaker 1: We know that there's some things that you've got little
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  Speaker 1: saying okay, sometimes you try to breastfeed, but you don't
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  Speaker 1: produce milk, or there's breastfeeding challenges. Obviously, whether it's a
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  Speaker 1: caesar or a natural birth. Sometimes there's limited control over
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  Speaker 1: what's going on there. But once the child's in the
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  Speaker 1: world and you've got some control over the diet, the
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  Speaker 1: food's going in their mouth, what do you do there?
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  Speaker 1: Is it again just about trying to stuff them full
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  Speaker 1: of fruit and veggies? Do you throw olives on the
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  Speaker 1: tray and hope that they stick one of those in
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  Speaker 1: their mouth and like it? How do you make this work.
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  Speaker 3: So I encourage parents to give little ones as much
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  Speaker 3: variety as possible in a non pressurized way. So throw
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  Speaker 3: lots of variety at them when they're young, and let
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  Speaker 3: them explore, let them get their fingers in it, let
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  Speaker 3: them smush it all over their face, and not by
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  Speaker 3: the I'm talking about like a ten twelve month old.
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  Speaker 3: Let them explore food with all of their senses, because
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  Speaker 3: that's how they develop and build that familiarity and trust
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  Speaker 3: in the food, and then they learn to like these
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  Speaker 3: foods over time. You've got this early window of opportunity
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  Speaker 3: to really expose them to the world in a non
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  Speaker 3: pressurized way. Let them eat as much as they want,
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  Speaker 3: and be okay if they don't want it, because kids
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  Speaker 3: have an inate ability to self regulate their appetite and
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  Speaker 3: eat to what they need. So it's about us providing
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  Speaker 3: a really positive environment with lots of exposure to all
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  Speaker 3: these lovely fruits and vegetables and you know, bowls of
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  Speaker 3: porridge or wheat pis, but not pressuring them to eat it.
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  Speaker 3: Just let them enjoy and learn about this food because
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  Speaker 3: they will then come to like these foods if offered
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  Speaker 3: in a non pressurized, fun way.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned control. It's
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  Speaker 1: such an important factor here. The more the more you
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  Speaker 1: push force creates resistance.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And that's something that we as parents find
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  Speaker 3: really hard because we value nutrition, we value helth. A
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  Speaker 3: lot of the parents that I work with inside nourishing Kids,
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  Speaker 3: you know, they're worried about their child not getting enough
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  Speaker 3: nutrition because they know we're always told that our kids
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  Speaker 3: need good food. But it's like, what how do we
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  Speaker 3: make that happen? And that's that's where I come in
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  Speaker 3: to say, like, this is how we set up a
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  Speaker 3: healthy feeding environment for a toddler, This is how we
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: set up a feeding environment for a fussy eat out,
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  Speaker 3: because we just need to remember that kids will learn
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  Speaker 3: to like these foods. We just need to set up
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  Speaker 3: really non pressurized way because if we create anxiety at
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: the in the high chair, at the dinner table, the
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: walls go up, and then we've lost that ability to
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  Speaker 3: for that meal time for them to explore food, and
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  Speaker 3: we lose that connection time as a family too, because
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: connecting at dinner time is really valuable and it's something
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: that we really need to cherish and try and bring back.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: Not enough families are connecting at the dinner table these days.
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  Speaker 1: Karina Savage is a pediatric dietitian. She's been doing it
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: for a few a couple of decades. I nearly aged
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  Speaker 1: you more than I should have a bit of it
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  Speaker 1: self indulgent today trying to learn about this gut microbiome.
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  Speaker 1: But I've learned a lot today. Thank you for being
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: patient with me. Karina lives in Sydney with her husband
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: and two kids, and is the founder of Nourishing Kids,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: where she helps parents create healthy eaters stress free. Karina
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: as a regular on National Warning TV on Sunrise and
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: seven and also has her own podcast. You can check
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: it out at the easy Feed. We will link to
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: the easy Feed. We'll also linked to Nourishing Kids and
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Nourish with Karina dot com. Karina really appreciate generosity and
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: sharing your time and expertise. Again, Hopefully this has been
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: well and it's been helpful for me. Hopefully it's been
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: helpful for a bunch of parents who are listening. Pleasure.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: The Happy Family podcast is produced by Justin Rouland from
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. More info in the show notes. If you'd
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: like to figure out how you can get your kids,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: improving their gut health with Karina and the work that
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: she does at Nourishing Kids. And more information about making
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: your family happier is available at happy families dot com
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: dot u or check out our social pages. Dr Justin
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Colson's Happy Families on Facebook and Instagram.