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Key Takeaways from Over 1000 Coaching Sessions · Mortgage Marketing Radio

0:00
Hello, my friend, and welcome to this episode of Mortgage Marketing Radio.
0:15
So glad you tuned in.
0:16
Today, I interview Coach Michael Regan.
0:20
Michael is a performance coach, a podcast, co-host, and a self-described man of the people.
0:25
Michael loves helping high-performance, housing industry professionals simplify everything so
0:30
that they can experience more harmony between life and work with less stress.
0:35
Michael is a leadership coach with building champions and has sat in the coaching chair
0:39
for over 11 years and delivered thousands of coaching sessions with some of today's
0:45
top mortgage professionals, whom names you would recognize.
0:49
Michael and I talk about narratives, navigation, role, invention, and how to really craft
0:57
and hone a focus for closing out this year's strong and building momentum into 2025.
1:03
We talk about mindset, skill set, and one of the actual tactics that you may want to consider
1:09
implementing, adding, removing, or starting in your business as we move into what looks
1:16
like is going to be a promising year for those of us in the mortgage and real estate business.
1:22
You can follow Michael via the links in the show notes, listen to his podcast, Building
1:27
Bigger Lives, check out some of the free resources that exist over on buildingchampions.com.
1:32
And with that, let's get into this week's show.
1:35
Coach Michael Regan, welcome to the show.
1:38
Happy to be with you today, Jeff.
1:39
Thanks for having me.
1:40
Long time coming.
1:41
As I had told you just a moment ago, you and I run into each other that a lot of the same
1:45
events you've been in the coaching chair for quite a number of years.
1:49
And I'm sure you've got some stories, some wisdom, some patterns that you've seen.
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But before we get into that, what would you like to share with the listeners about who
1:59
you are?
2:00
Well, it is true that these are authentic gray hairs over here.
2:04
So a little bit of time, I have been doing full-time coaching with Building Champions
2:08
for about 12 years now.
2:10
Prior to that, I did a little bit of blended coaching and origination under their certification
2:15
program for about five before that.
2:16
So yeah, a long time in this model, I am deeply committed to the way we coach, to what we
2:25
coach and really passionate about being able to do it in the housing industry.
2:29
I think the space that you and I both know and love so much.
2:33
So let's start with this.
2:37
What type of a person self identifies as being ready for coaching?
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Like, where is somebody at in their career?
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Is there, you know what I mean?
2:47
Some some common denominators there?
2:49
Well, I think when I look at most of the folks that are sticky, like once we have the opportunity
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to work together and we can look back a little bit and reflect on what was the formula,
2:59
they tend to be people that come with some humility.
3:02
They've got to have some ability to see themselves as coachable.
3:05
If they don't come with humility, we're not going to spend a lot of time angling for
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lanes and that's never a great place in which to build coaching report.
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But that humility has to be tethered to a little bit of confidence as well.
3:19
I mean, they have to believe in themselves.
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They have to believe in their ability to grow and do more than they're currently doing.
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And so the combination of that humility and confidence is different than arrogance and
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it's different than false humility.
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It's really that nice blend of the both.
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And those two are in place, I'd say the third ingredient that always exists if we're successful
3:42
is they have some vision for what this should look like if they could just get the help
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they need.
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They see what's possible, but they just need some help getting over the hump.
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You know, our companies call building champions.
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We tend to work with people who either already see themselves in some sort of excellence
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or are vying to be a champion in whatever they do.
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So we're not typically coaching people that are figuring it out.
4:07
We're coaching people who are really trying to fine tune those small things that are going
4:12
to make a huge difference in their overall performance and the results.
4:15
Very interesting.
4:18
So that goes back to success, breed success and those, you know, you said a lot in there
4:24
actually.
4:25
You said about vision, humility, you know, coachability and things like that.
4:29
It's interesting.
4:31
I think that's when I think of both myself and this journey I've been on of trying to
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get better at what it is that I do in this chair.
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And it's interesting.
4:39
We could flip the script and talk about how, you know, sometimes you get stale, sometimes
4:44
you get a little bit going through the motions and I'm sure some people listening, they've
4:48
been around in their career long enough.
4:49
Do you do you find people that also come to you when they're in that state of like, you
4:54
know, they're not challenged, they're not inspired or maybe they're also struggling?
4:59
Yeah, for sure.
5:00
In fact, Jeff, as you described that, I'd say that's probably the more common lane that
5:05
we see are these are people that they've experienced some level of success, but maybe they felt
5:10
some sense of plateau, maybe they felt some sense of, I don't know what my next level
5:15
up looks like.
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I don't want to level down, but I don't know what the level up looks like.
5:19
And so they just continue doing what they are currently doing and maybe hoping that market
5:24
conditions and longevity equal improvement, but typically they don't, typically they
5:28
need an additional boost in that formula.
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And so they'll come to me or come to building champions, hoping that what we've done over
5:36
the last 28 years in the mortgage lending space and in real estate will translate to helping
5:43
them figure, figure that out.
5:45
So let's go back to my earlier comment.
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If they do have some vision, they, that vision may be really basic.
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It may not be really well built out.
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It just may be a clear sense of a goal they have or it may be a clear sense of what's
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possible.
5:58
And my job is to help them break down the game film so that they can figure out how to design
6:02
a new play in order to close that gap.
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So yeah, sometimes people do need some help with their, with their confidence in, in the
6:11
dreaming bigger, believing more in themselves.
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And so yeah, there's a little bit of, a little bit of psychology in there too.
6:17
No, I agree with that.
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People definitely need that.
6:19
And also wrote down this thing, you mentioned something about people waiting for market
6:23
conditions to change the way they feel.
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And let's, let's now pivot a little bit as we're heading into Q4 as we're recording
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this right October 21st.
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We had some really favorable market conditions for quite a while and then we haven't for
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quite a quite a long time as well, which is maybe why some people feel they're a little
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bit at the stage we just described.
6:44
So let's say, okay, so what would you advise to people going into Q4?
6:50
You've coached a lot of people, how many years you've been in the chair?
6:52
14 years?
6:53
Well, 12 full time, let's call it 12 full time.
6:57
How many coaching sessions would you say you've had approximately?
7:00
Well, we could do some quick extrapolation, Jeff, and let's just say I typically coach
7:05
on an average year about 30 to 40 individuals.
7:10
And so you can kind of reverse engineer the math if I've got a couple hours a month with
7:13
each of them.
7:14
There's a lot of hours of coaching there over the last 12.
7:17
Yeah, it is.
7:18
And, you know, I don't tend to spend a lot of time looking in the rearview mirror.
7:21
You know, when I'm driving the car, I focus on the windshield, but the facts are the
7:26
facts.
7:27
And so let's go to your question.
7:29
If we look at this through the lens of that reality, what people have just been through.
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And let's just call it the last four years in particular, the highs of the highs and
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the hard, maybe some of the hardest years that we've seen in the last, well, in the season
7:44
that we've been doing this.
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I think you have to at some level throw out those highs and lows if you're going to
7:52
get an honest view of what we're going to do going ahead because I don't think your best
7:57
years or your worst years are going to define you if we're only looking at your last four
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years as a sample of your work.
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I think we have to look at, you know, how have you been doing over the last decade?
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Let's throw out the highs and the lows and let's look at the median for where reality
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sits in terms of your skill set.
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And then let's look at those market conditions through the lens of your vision and decide,
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do you have a unique value proposition to take advantage of that market that you see
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in the future?
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Do you have some way to stand out?
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Do you have some way in which to differentiate your offering?
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I think if I'm a real estate agent or a mortgage lender, those are critical to me because
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I feel like in a world full of technology, AI in particular, if I don't have those
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kind of differentiations, even if I think the market conditions might improve, I may
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not be able to accelerate as quickly as the market moves.
8:47
So what comes first, mindset or skill set?
8:55
Boy, that is probably a deeper question than our audience may realize you just asked because
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a lot of people want to call that the chicken or the egg, but how about I just nail it?
9:04
I think mindset has to come first, Jeff.
9:07
And it's not because I loved the Carol Duac book.
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It's not because I think that that's what's popular on a lot of the mainstream podcasts.
9:16
It's because when you really look at what we do, if I can visualize this with you, all
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of us have some sort of inner gear inside of us.
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It's the beliefs that we come with, the feelings that are onboarded, maybe some of the thinking
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that's pretty disposed from some of the upbringing that we've had, but those come with us.
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And those are regularly driving the decisions that we make, the actions that we'll take,
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the relationships we'll build, and ultimately the results we're going to get.
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So if we don't first unpack some time unpacking some of those beliefs, some of those thoughts
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and some of those feelings, if we're afraid to dig into that, if that's too muddy, the
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risk is we spend a lot of time trying our darnedest to figure out how to make these course
10:02
corrections on the outside, and we never really get to the heart of the matter.
10:06
And I think that's one of the reasons I love coaching with building champions is we've
10:09
always taken that holistic approach to what we do.
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We believe that we have to address a leader personally, but they have to really lead themselves
10:19
well before they can lead their teams well, which means we're going to get into those
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deeper topics.
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So I think you're asking the right question, and I hope our audience understands, yeah,
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if your mindset is in any way not stable, it's going to be really hard to build your skill
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set, really hard.
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Yeah, there's a very interesting conversation.
10:37
We could continue to kind of peel back the layers on this, because I agree with you,
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and I'm thinking like I'm getting these flashbacks to my own career trajectory and then other
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things that we try and attempt in or outside of our comfort zone.
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But I remember one time I had a gentleman on the podcast, and he shared me with this
10:56
mindset, which you're familiar with, which is be do have versus do be have, right?
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And a lot of people feel like interesting.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Have you ever heard that phrase that way before?
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Be do have comfort.
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That comes for us.
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I'm totally, yeah, I'm totally following it.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Which goes back to mindset, which goes, I'm a big fan of identity, and I kind of geek
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out on that stuff, because I think what you alluded to there is, you know, we talk about
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mindset.
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It's identity as well.
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It's like the baggage.
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How do we see ourselves?
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And this goes back to the quote unquote top producer kind of conversation, and you see who's
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right for coaching.
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So okay, back to Q4, I was going to go deeper on that, but I wanted to also shift to be a
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bit tactical here.
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Okay, so back to Q4, because you've been in the chair for so long, you've actually worked
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with a lot of very successful mortgage professionals.
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Is there a playbook that you are seeing, right, repeatedly, or that you're prescribing,
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as we head into this current Q4 preparing for 2025?
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All right, so I'm going to answer that on two levels, because I think both are present.
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Yes, I do have some, let's call it, it's kind of like a musician.
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Like once you've recorded enough albums at some point, the label wants to put out your
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greatest hits.
12:13
Right.
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And the greatest hits is usually the collection of things that are, you know, the audience
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knows them.
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And true, and they want to hear them.
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And so yes, when it comes to this time of year, there are a few processes that I follow,
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using tools that I've embraced that I know produce the kind of results that help someone
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prepare themselves for the year ahead.
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So without a doubt, that's true.
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But at the same time, what I really love are using tools that aren't fill in the blank
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tools.
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They're designed to be customized from the moment we dig into them.
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So the questions may be standardized, but where we go with the answers are completely
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customized.
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And here's why Jeff, I want to work with people who have that entrepreneurial or that
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ownership mindset that want to design something that reflects their uniqueness.
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They don't want to be put in, you know, a box where everybody is thinking the same way
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and doing the same thing.
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So I'm really drawn to the idea that some of these resources that I'll tend to use, whether
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it's a role reflection journal designed to get them to really think deeply about the
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year they've just had in the role that they play, whether it's a New Year's business
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plan where before we dig into the numbers, we work out the narratives that are going
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to be in that plan because I really think the story lines are going to drive what we're
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actually going to do with those numbers.
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So let's get those narratives figured out.
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Of course, at some point, the numbers don't lie.
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We have to get those worked out.
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So I'm going to use a tool I like to call a navigator in order to break those things
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down and project forward over the course of the year, both where leads come from and
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ultimately where that nets into profitability.
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But all of these tools are just tools.
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It's the exchange we get to have once that tool is in play.
13:54
And I love sitting down in one-on-one sessions or even in workshops with small groups and
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helping people prepare for the year ahead because once they're prepared, there's a sense
14:04
of excitement and anticipation for that year rather than, okay, turn the calendar, time
14:10
to erase the slate and do the same dang thing all over again.
14:12
I want to give them that feeling of, hey, we're going to keep a few things because they
14:15
work.
14:16
But we want to improve on some things.
14:17
We want to try some new things and we want to let go of some things that maybe have
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lived out their life cycle.
14:23
Hmm.
14:24
Wow.
14:25
That's good.
14:26
I wrote down a couple things.
14:27
Let's start with narratives.
14:28
Are narratives like a theme for the year or what are they?
14:31
Yeah.
14:32
Great.
14:33
So it will start there for sure.
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I think every year does have a theme to it without a doubt.
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And as you and I look at the year of 2025 from where we sit today in late October, we're
14:45
starting to talk to enough people in our industry to realize, all right, there's a sense
14:49
of optimism, not too much, but enough to where they feel like, okay, if the dark days are
14:54
behind us, let's start building again, even if it's conservatively.
14:58
And so those themes are going to come out as people plan.
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But I think the narratives go beyond just a buzzword or a short catchphrase that's emotionally
15:07
engaging.
15:08
Themes are great.
15:09
But the narratives are more like, tell me, if you're going to tell me what you're going
15:13
to do in terms of businesses you're going to acquire, partnerships you're going to make,
15:18
products you're going to design, social media campaigns you're going to execute on.
15:24
Narratives are, tell me the story behind that.
15:26
So as a good journalist, I want to know the who, the what, the when, the why, the where,
15:30
and the how.
15:31
I know those are journalism one-on-one questions, but we can really learn a lot about the narratives
15:37
of these goals or plans that someone starts to unpack.
15:41
And sometimes we find out there's not a lot of mission or purpose in the vision they
15:47
have.
15:48
They're maybe just doing it because they see everybody else doing it.
15:50
So they feel like, well, I've got to do it too.
15:52
And I want to work out that narrative early because if that's the false narrative they're
15:56
working under, I'd rather smoke that out while we're in preseason rather than have them
16:00
find out somewhere in the first quarter that, oh, shit, I'm not, I'm not making this
16:04
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17:29
So is an error to then kind of the why, the story, right, that was the emotional connection
17:34
to the right, the focus, the vision for the new year?
17:41
Right on.
17:42
And I think if you think of it in that exact phrase the way you said, what's the story?
17:48
You would get to clearly then the mission and the purpose.
17:51
The mission is simply, what are we trying to accomplish the purpose answers?
17:54
Why?
17:55
Why is it so important?
17:56
And I'm a big believer that if I can get people to work on those narratives, two things
18:00
will come from them.
18:01
One is they'll get a little more excited about committing themselves to what it's going
18:05
to take to make that happen.
18:07
And the other is we'll be able to come back to those narratives when the dark days start
18:11
hitting them in the face in January and February.
18:13
And they're starting to feel like, oh, this is harder than I thought it was going to be.
18:16
We're going to remind them of those stories.
18:18
We're going to remind them of that mission and purpose because those are the things that
18:21
they said we're driving this.
18:23
So we want to hold on to those.
18:24
We don't want this to be just an exercise in numbers by itself.
18:28
Mm.
18:29
Okay.
18:30
So that's what I'm seeking a little bit more clarity on then.
18:31
So the narrative, right?
18:33
The purpose, the mission isn't necessarily the more like the next step you have there's
18:38
the navigation, maybe tactical or whatever, like I want to add 10 referral partners or
18:43
I want to add 10 million in production.
18:45
That's not the narrative, right?
18:46
The narrative is something different, am I correct?
18:48
Correct.
18:49
Correct.
18:50
Because if you're going to tell me those things, I'm going to ask you, I'm going to go back
18:53
to the why you want to do that.
18:56
How would that work?
18:57
Who do you need to partner with to be able to do that?
19:00
What resources do you need?
19:01
Let's build out the storyline because if we find out the emperor has no clothes, we better
19:05
pause before we jump on that commitment and make sure we're ready.
19:08
Yeah, I see that a lot too, where people just randomly, I'll ask that question a lot,
19:13
like what's your cue for focus and, you know, no matter what's the primary focus or whatever.
19:18
And there are, it's these one word thing, focus, execution, you know, no matter what the
19:23
hell does that mean?
19:26
But the narrative, like you said, is you've got to back that up.
19:29
So keep unpacking that if you want.
19:31
Yeah, in fact, one of the exercises I'll do with a client is I'll do what's called
19:36
the five Y exercise.
19:38
And so when someone gives me a clear mission, here's what I want to do, and a clear purpose,
19:44
here's why that matters to me, I don't stop at that answer.
19:47
I ask them why that answer is so important to them.
19:52
And then they tell me why.
19:53
And I say, okay, but why would you fight for that?
19:56
And we'll keep going through five Ys until we get to the place where either they can
20:00
dig that deep or maybe they tap out at the third or fourth and say, Michael, that's
20:05
it.
20:06
That's as deep as I've got.
20:07
That's it.
20:08
The purpose is not to need to get to five Jeff.
20:10
The purpose is to push deep because often we know how we're smart people.
20:15
We know how to give a good, why answer, but I'll give you a great one.
20:20
People will tell me all the time, you know, oh, if I ask you, you know, why is it so important
20:24
for you to close 200 loans this year?
20:27
What?
20:28
Tell me why that's so important.
20:29
Well, we want to help families have, you know, financial freedom.
20:32
Okay, tell me why that's so important to you.
20:35
Well, because I think that creates a real important, you know, backbone in our culture
20:39
when people have home ownership and they, and they have that belief that they don't
20:43
have to rent for.
20:44
Okay, that's why is that important to you that people have a home ownership and don't
20:47
have to rent?
20:48
Well, you know, I grew up in a house where we didn't really own a home.
20:53
We rented and had to move every year.
20:56
Oh, okay.
20:57
So tell me more about that.
20:59
Why did that happen?
21:00
Well, see my dad, he was always changing jobs and my mom was doing her best work in two
21:05
part time jobs and Jeff, we start getting into those stories where it's the real why behind
21:09
the why and once we get there, we make the emotional connection of, okay, Jeff, that's
21:15
why you're going to fight to serve 200 families this year because you know how it feels
21:20
to be one of those families that struggles with feeling like they never get ahead of
21:24
the financial curve and you understand the math and the potential of home ownership to
21:28
change the trajectory of the next generation.
21:31
So you're passionate about it because it matters to you personally.
21:34
So I want to dig into those wise, otherwise we may miss the whole reason why we're shooting
21:38
for these big numbers.
21:39
Yeah.
21:40
Yeah, and that's, that's pretty powerful.
21:42
I'm sure it takes some time, depending on the person to get there and unpack that.
21:47
Does it seems like some of them don't like it at all?
21:51
Yeah, I know, right?
21:52
Because they have to face the truth of what they're driven, why they're driven to do whatever
21:55
it is they're doing.
21:58
But that's sometimes the reason they don't like face in it, Jeff, is it shallow?
22:02
Sometimes the answer isn't as profound as the example I was going to ask you next is
22:05
sometimes it's, yeah, yeah, sometimes it's not.
22:08
It's just about money, right?
22:10
Well, and look, I don't want to minimize money.
22:13
Money is a motivator for all of us at some level.
22:16
But yeah, if the only thing that matters to you is making more money, then you have to
22:20
really ask yourself, okay, well, then how do you know when enough is enough?
22:23
How do you know when, now, now we'll look into that bigger picture of the life plan.
22:27
So we can look at the accounts that they have outside of work, their, their relationships,
22:32
their health, their personal finances, their, you know, hobbies, whatever else is in that
22:37
life plan is, okay, so if we keep saying level up, level up, level up, level up because
22:41
more money is always better than less money.
22:44
When is there harmony between that and this personal life you're trying to design?
22:50
Because if we only focus on making more money, what expense do we have it?
22:54
I mean, look, I don't want to meet somebody spouse someday and say, hey, thanks a lot for
22:58
helping my husband when, you know, mortgage lender of the year or five years in a row,
23:03
we never see him anymore.
23:04
And the guy's like a walking heart attack.
23:06
Thanks a lot.
23:07
Right.
23:08
That's not a win for me.
23:09
Well, that's the other cool thing that coaching can really do is help you get clear on what's
23:15
really important.
23:16
Help unpack some of those things that are driving you on the good or the bad side and,
23:21
and then get to like enjoying your business or your life instead of it being a drudgery,
23:27
you know.
23:29
Fair enough.
23:30
And you know, everybody gets to write, this goes back to narratives.
23:33
Everybody gets to write a different narrative into that plan.
23:36
And people, you know, want to get married and have kids and, you know, be a little
23:40
big coach.
23:42
Other people want to, you know, vacation and by cars and big, big homes.
23:47
My job isn't to make a value judgment on what's motivating someone.
23:51
It's just to get really clear on those narratives so that I understand what's motivating them
23:56
and I understand why they're going to fight for these things.
23:59
And you know, sometimes I get to play the perspective of the outsider.
24:03
Because I'm the only one who's ever challenged them on why that's important.
24:06
And it forces them to pause and say, you know, Jeff, I don't know.
24:10
I don't know why that's important to me.
24:12
And they really have to pause there and sometimes it's valuable to go point them toward
24:16
an author or a podcast or, you know, something where they can maybe glean some outside knowledge
24:22
to think deeply about why am I fighting so hard for this goal I have before we just go
24:27
tackle the world?
24:28
Yeah.
24:29
Okay.
24:30
So that was a bit about narrative.
24:31
That's really cool.
24:32
And navigation, what is that all about?
24:35
Well, it comes from a tool that we use in order to break down the numbers because one
24:40
of the things that I think is critical in you and I've sat in a lot of these production
24:45
meetings with sales professionals who will, you know, spout out a big goal and a big
24:49
goal is a starting point for a discussion.
24:52
But I want to help them break down that big goal in terms of not just all of the lagging
24:57
measures that are necessary to achieve that goal, but all the way up to the leading measures
25:01
that are likely to drive those results in those lagging measures.
25:06
And for our audience, what I mean by the difference of those is, you know, in real estate or in
25:10
mortgage lending, lagging measures are going to be things like, hey, how many units did
25:14
you close in the month?
25:15
How much volume was that?
25:17
Maybe how much profitability was that?
25:19
Well, those are lagging results.
25:22
Lead measures are going to be things like how many hours are you scheduled to spend with
25:27
partners this month in one-on-one conversations?
25:31
How many hours have you blocked out for follow-up phone calls with your prospects and your
25:35
clients?
25:36
And how many dedicated connections are you committed to make before you say, you know,
25:42
I've hit the threshold of what it takes to drive those lag numbers that I want.
25:46
So I'm going to help them break that down in an navigation tool so that they can see
25:50
what it's going to take and then we're going to time block it to see where does all that
25:54
fit in your daily routine because you've got to be if you figured out what it's going
25:58
to take, you have to figure out where it's going to fit.
26:01
And then at some point that's going to push up against things like eating healthy, working
26:05
out, spending time with your spouse.
26:07
And I'm going to push back on that as well and say at what point do these things end up
26:11
like an NCAA tournament where, hey, the number one seed's going up against another one,
26:15
number one seed.
26:16
And only one of them gets to win.
26:17
Like, we got to think about this before we go into the game or bad results can happen.
26:22
So I'm going to get them to think through all of that and it's critical that we chunk
26:26
down those numbers.
26:29
Okay, I've just had the thought pop in my head, I'll put it in here right now.
26:35
You've coached thousands of thousands of hours, coached originators across the spectrum
26:43
of production, right, from the lower tier, whatever you want to call that to, the upper
26:47
tier, 100 million plus producers, right?
26:49
Just setting that as a stage, okay.
26:52
So let's just say we had this, we had this Michael Regan AI and we could take the conversations
27:00
of from all the coaching conversations he's had throughout the years and we could feed
27:03
those conversations into the AI and that's the AI to identify the top three or five or
27:09
whatever it is, right, patterns or consistent resistance or headwinds or challenges like
27:18
mistakes, like what would be a couple of those main takeaways you've seen, the AI is
27:23
telling you repeated, right, over and over and over again.
27:25
If we just wanted the friggin cliff notes, like, how would you begin to answer that?
27:29
Yeah.
27:30
First of all, I love that question.
27:32
We live in a world where we can actually hypothesize AI because we could actually do this
27:37
and find out.
27:38
That's great.
27:40
Jeff, here's what's not surprising, you know, whether you're talking to a guy like
27:44
Shant, who's the number one producer in the country or whether you're talking to maybe,
27:49
let's say, well, I don't out my clients, we do operate under confidentiality, let's say
27:54
I work with some folks that are in that same space.
27:57
Sure.
27:58
I think here's what you'd be shocked to find out, you might not be shocked by this, our
28:02
audience might be, is it's this relentless focus on fundamental execution.
28:08
And when you really follow their daily routines, it's so freaking boring and repetitive that
28:14
most people think, no, no, no, that can't be it.
28:16
It's got, you got to give me something fancy or shiny, no, they are absolutely driven
28:23
by those fundamentals.
28:25
I think maybe the person that first woke me up to this was my friend Todd Bookspan, you
28:29
know, he and I used to think we were competitors down in the Scottsdale market for a while, but
28:33
we figured out along the way that we had never once competed for one deal.
28:37
It was a pretty big city.
28:38
You know, when you got five million people in the metro market, it's pretty silly to think
28:41
this guy is my competition.
28:42
So we started meeting on Friday afternoons for these little mini masterminds.
28:46
And we regularly said, you know, hey, if I can help you and you can help me, we'll both
28:49
be better and we'll go compete with a couple of the thousand other people.
28:53
Here's what I learned from Todd way back before, when by noon was even a brand, Todd would
28:58
have these janky little notebooks full of, hey, these are the calls I'm going to make.
29:03
These are the conversations I'm aiming to have.
29:05
These are the handwritten notes I'm going to send.
29:07
These are, I mean, it was so 101 that you would have thought, yeah, yeah, come on.
29:12
But what else?
29:15
And a hundred million dollars later, it wasn't a lot of what else.
29:18
I think far too often we get attracted by bright shiny objects and we forget the fundamentals.
29:24
And our everybody on our, in our audience today knows the fundamentals.
29:28
The fundamentals are things like having a plan for your week before the week starts, having
29:34
everything you intend to do time blocked, tracking everything you did so that you can match
29:38
that up against what you said you were going to do.
29:41
And being accountable to the consistency of what you committed to do back when you wrote
29:46
those plans, those are fundamentals, Jeff.
29:49
They're not sexy.
29:50
They're not fun.
29:51
Right.
29:52
But, you know, like a good football team, we block and tackle and we move the ball down
29:55
field.
29:56
Yeah.
29:57
I always think of a lumbarity whenever I hear people talk about the fundamentals.
30:00
As a matter of fact, on my whiteboard here is written down, be brilliant in the basics.
30:06
And I think if there's one takeaway, there's one right or down or for anybody listening
30:09
right now, that's it.
30:11
It's, you know, I think of some of the coaches I've been to over the years, including a more
30:15
modern day coach like Alex Hermosi, for example, right, who has kind of come up on the scene
30:19
as a business thought leader and who's definitely has a good track record to prove it.
30:24
But that's, again, it always comes back to, it's whenever I've seen people achieving
30:28
in business.
30:29
Even athletes, right?
30:30
I mean, think about the patterns, the practice runs, the drills, like over and over and over.
30:36
And you get bored.
30:37
Yeah.
30:38
But I think the trick is how would you advise somebody to embrace the boredom or as I say,
30:43
embrace the suck?
30:44
Like, what do they have to change about their thinking just to realize I'm sorry you want
30:48
something sexy, but this is it.
30:51
Yeah.
30:52
That does happen.
30:55
And so I try to get people to think differently before I ask them, ask them to act differently.
31:00
And so I'll lean into thought leaders.
31:02
So I know you're a big fan of books like Atomic Habits.
31:05
That might be a place where I get them to read about the mindset of those small things
31:12
repeated over a period of time in order to get really amazing results.
31:17
And then we work through the thought press on that process on that before we make a new
31:22
set of commitments.
31:23
I want to get them to think differently.
31:25
I might tell them to tune in to your podcast.
31:27
I mean, you've got some great guests that come on who talk about what they do.
31:31
And I might say, hey, just go check out this episode.
31:33
Just going to unpack this with this guest.
31:35
And from that, you might come back to me with some questions that we can work out because
31:40
if I can get them to, as you call it, embrace the suck, I'm more likely to get back to
31:45
what we started with.
31:47
Now they're humble.
31:48
Now they're hungry.
31:49
Now we're ready to really get to coaching.
31:51
So sometimes you have to break them down to get there because let's face it.
31:55
I mean, when you're working with champions, there's a little bit of ego in there.
31:59
And they come to you and say, yeah, yeah, I'm sure the basics are necessary, but I know
32:04
what I'm doing.
32:05
Let's don't spend a lot of time tracking my phone calls this week.
32:08
Let's spend more time talking about my new social media strategy.
32:11
Well, okay.
32:13
How's that going to go in three months when the results aren't there?
32:16
Hmm.
32:17
Yeah, interesting.
32:18
All right, let's riff on that for a second.
32:23
Have you seen that comma?
32:24
I assume so, seeing it's, you know, over the last, since I was originating, right?
32:27
I mean, I didn't have it, but over the last decade, obviously, social media has grown
32:30
a lot.
32:32
How do you kind of, or how often do you have to have that conversation with people to go,
32:36
you know, like, oh, dude, it's just, I'm just going to rock it with video.
32:39
Like, how do you talk people through that?
32:43
I never want to be anti social media and I never want to be anti technology.
32:47
I never want to tell them, I mean, look, we're on video today.
32:50
I'm never against these things.
32:52
It's when they come at the absence of the fundamentals that we've got a house of cards.
32:57
So I just want to remind them, you know, let's, let's use foundation.
32:59
We're in the housing industry.
33:00
Let's think about it like a real house.
33:02
I'm just talking about, let's make sure that what we're going to build with, you know,
33:07
concrete and Adobe and whatever else we've got, uh, Stucco.
33:11
What am I saying?
33:12
I was trying to get your deserts.
33:13
That's what it is.
33:14
It's, it's Stucco.
33:15
We've got to have that concrete foundation.
33:17
It's got to be there.
33:18
And so that's all I want to get them back to is I don't want to hold them back for many
33:22
of their vision of cool things they want to do because that goes back to some of that
33:26
UVP that I referenced earlier.
33:28
Maybe some of what they can do on video really does create the separation they need.
33:32
Maybe some of what they can do on social really does separate them from the crowd.
33:36
Awesome.
33:37
Let's just make sure it's not at the expense of the fact that real people need consultations.
33:42
Real clients need annual client reviews, you know, real prospects need you to work
33:47
through a total cost analysis or some version of that, uh, to break down their options.
33:52
And so let's be really committed to those fundamentals.
33:55
Hmm.
33:56
Okay.
33:57
That's awesome advice.
33:58
Was there a part three, two narratives, navigation and?
34:03
So when I, when I looked at this, uh, I think back in the, in the prep, I started with
34:07
role reflection and it's okay that we skipped that one.
34:10
But I start there typically because I find what most people want to do when they're
34:14
planning is they just want to jump into, here's where I am and here's the year ahead.
34:20
And we don't spend a lot of time reviewing the year we just had.
34:24
We don't spend a lot of time, or that's not a habit people have.
34:27
So I want to slow their role a little and say, Hey, we're going to plenty of time to
34:30
do that.
34:31
But let's start before we get into those narratives and into that navigation.
34:35
And let's do a quick review of the year.
34:37
And that's going to include some of the goals they had from a year ago.
34:40
So we're going to pull out the scorecard and we're going to review it against the goals.
34:44
And we're going to talk about those storylines.
34:46
Hey, why did we exceed here?
34:48
Why did we miss here?
34:49
What's going on?
34:50
Are those things?
34:51
And you heard me reference the kiss filter.
34:52
I want to look at what are we going to keep doing because there's some evidence that
34:57
it's helping you accelerate.
34:58
What are we going to improve upon because clearly what we're doing is it's working at some
35:03
measurable level, but not an exponential level.
35:06
What are we going to start doing because it's time to add this in order to take advantage
35:11
of a market opportunity.
35:12
And what are we going to stop doing to create some space because that's probably the hardest
35:17
one.
35:18
Jeff, most people are excited about the keep improve and start, but they don't like
35:21
the stop.
35:22
And I have to give them permission to say, Hey, just because something isn't working,
35:26
doesn't mean you take it out back and shoot it dead.
35:29
Maybe you just need to look at those beautiful bookshelves behind you.
35:31
Maybe you just need to park that on a shelf.
35:32
You know where it is.
35:33
You can come back to it later if you need it, but let's don't burn any good fuel on
35:37
that right now.
35:38
It's not time.
35:39
And so I have to help them with that.
35:41
And so that role reflection is a critical first step.
35:43
Yeah.
35:44
Keep improved start.
35:45
I like that.
35:46
Role reflection.
35:47
I got a full page of notes here already.
35:51
When what would you evaluate?
35:55
Is there a decision process you go through to terminate an activity or an objective or
36:02
something that they've been trying to do that you realize just isn't paying off?
36:05
Like, how do you know when it's time?
36:07
Well, remember, if you think about what we had said, we're going to move into narratives
36:12
and numbers.
36:13
So let's presume in the previous year we had some narratives and numbers.
36:16
So those are going to be the two filters we're going to use.
36:19
Let's review the storyline that you told me.
36:22
Is that how the story unfolded?
36:23
You know, maybe that's where we decide to eject.
36:27
You thought it was going to go this way.
36:29
Your audience didn't agree with you.
36:31
They didn't want to go that way.
36:32
So maybe there's a storyline or maybe it is in the numbers.
36:36
Maybe the idea is, okay, it's not that there wasn't some interest in, you know, I don't
36:39
pick a, let's pick a strategy so this doesn't say, let's say someone's going to dive into
36:43
reverse mortgage lending in 2025 and that's that's something they've decided to start.
36:48
Well, now at the end of the year, we want to review that and say, okay, did your audience
36:52
connect with all of your messaging to drive enough interest in this?
36:57
And even if they did at some level, maybe it wasn't enough to where the juice just wasn't
37:02
worth the squeeze.
37:03
You put a lot of money and time and team resources into something that didn't multiply.
37:09
So you know, just like the biblical parable of the seeds, you know, I don't think we're
37:13
looking for a one to one ratio here.
37:15
We're looking to a one to many.
37:16
We need, you know, times three times five times 10.
37:19
I mean, you know, Grant didn't own the 10X, you know, that existed a long time before
37:25
him.
37:26
We want that with our people.
37:27
So yeah, I think it's going to be both.
37:28
We're going to look for the filter of, does the storyline allow you to keep investing
37:32
in this and do the numbers allow you to keep investing in this?
37:35
And if the answer on either of those is no, isn't it my job as your coach to say, wait
37:40
a minute, let's, let's pause and really ask ourselves why we want to put double down
37:46
on this bet that's not paying off.
37:48
Hmm.
37:49
Interesting.
37:50
Okay.
37:51
Real quick, we're almost at a time.
37:53
What would you, I tried to think of the, how do I ask this question?
37:56
So it's one of two, one of two ways, the way I wanted to ask it initially was, what
38:01
is the, what are the question or questions you wish somebody would ask you on a coaching
38:07
call that they have not yet asked?
38:10
Let's try that.
38:11
Wow.
38:12
I'm going to go back to your earlier comment after thousands of hours.
38:16
I feel like, man, people are pretty transparent with me or what do they not ask that they
38:22
should be.
38:23
Right.
38:24
Yeah.
38:25
That gives you a little more latitude.
38:27
Here's the deal.
38:28
We're, we're all capable of this.
38:31
We want feedback.
38:32
Like if I said to you, hey, Jeff, after we record today, can I give you some feedback on
38:35
the podcast?
38:36
You're not going to say no, thanks.
38:38
But the truth is, if I give you that feedback, there's a little party that's like, does
38:42
he really know, I mean, he doesn't really know, he just has a little sliver of information.
38:47
And I think if I could get clients to say, I'm not critiquing you just for my own pleasure.
38:54
You know, you and I grew up in an era when being a critical thinker used to be an
38:59
accolade, being literally like that, we were trained to be critical thinkers.
39:03
Now if you're critical, it's like you're a bad person.
39:06
I just want to help someone.
39:08
If I really care about you, I feel like that's one of my responsibilities as a coach.
39:13
People don't pay for me to be their buddy.
39:15
They pay for me to be their coach.
39:17
So I want to be able to give them that feedback.
39:19
So I think that's my answer is I need them to have enough openness to say, help me see
39:26
what I can't see.
39:28
How do people perceive me when I'm in meetings?
39:31
How do people perceive me when I'm at these events?
39:33
How do people perceive me when they are watching my videos or reading my posts?
39:38
And if they're willing to let me give them some perspective, I don't necessarily need
39:42
to be right.
39:43
I just need to give them permission to think through the idea that maybe it looks a little
39:48
different than they thought and that maybe helps them sharpen it a little bit.
39:53
That's a very valuable feedback.
39:55
You can't get that perspective from yourself, you know what I mean?
39:59
Like unless you watch, even still it's still you, like I'm thinking about watching video
40:03
of like, you know, you're speaking or whatever or, you know, watching these podcast clips,
40:06
which of course we've both probably done of our own podcast and then we self critique.
40:10
However, it is not quite the same as somebody else providing their context about you.
40:16
That's fantastic.
40:18
And let me repeat, let me repeat what I said is I don't need to be right.
40:21
I just need you to get as a client, give me permission to give you that perspective because
40:26
the perspective of the outsider is perhaps one of the most unique things I get to do as
40:32
a coach.
40:33
And if you hold me back from that, if you don't let me do that, by the way, that doesn't
40:37
usually work, I'll find a way to make sure it happens.
40:40
But if you don't invite me into that, then I have to force it.
40:43
And that's not always fun.
40:46
You know, I'm not, I'm not afraid to pause somebody in the middle of their bravado.
40:52
But I'd rather them come to me and say, hey, help me out.
40:54
Why isn't this working?
40:55
Okay.
40:56
Well, let's, let's review what you're doing together.
40:58
Yeah.
40:59
Well, I would assume that to some degree, people show up for coaching because they are
41:01
seeking answers and they should be somewhat open to constructive feedback, right?
41:06
But we have.
41:07
It depends.
41:08
Yeah.
41:09
All right.
41:10
So for those who've enjoyed this conversation, which I have, and we can keep going for another
41:12
easily 30 minutes, but I know we're tied on time.
41:14
So you yourself actually have a podcast as well, right?
41:18
Building bigger lives.
41:20
Why don't you tell us about that and where people can find it?
41:24
Yeah.
41:25
Well, it's a little tip of the cap, of course, to building champions.
41:27
We wanted to make sure it, it had some familiarity there, but it is not, in fact, a building
41:32
champions branded podcast, Catherine Peterson, who is a 10 year client of mine in the Steamboat
41:38
Springs area.
41:39
I think you've met Catherine a few times and she and I both had talked about this idea
41:44
separately.
41:45
And at some point in a coaching session, I just challenged her and said, look, you're
41:49
not getting off the ground with your idea.
41:51
And I've got an idea that looks a little bit different than yours.
41:54
But what if I said, let's do this together and let's push each other to get this into
41:59
play.
42:00
Would you play along?
42:01
And a way we went.
42:02
So we launched this about a year ago as a concept.
42:06
We first started producing episodes in January.
42:09
We're somewhere in our, you know, 40-something week of production every Wednesday on Apple
42:13
and Spotify.
42:14
We drop a new one.
42:15
And the following week it shows up on YouTube for those that, for some crazy reason,
42:19
want to see what we look like on video.
42:21
And probably helps the algorithm a little bit too.
42:24
And those podcasts are an amazing opportunity for me, Jeff, to be able to do two things
42:30
that I think you get to do as well.
42:32
A, I give people permission to get a deeper glimpse into the things that I'm going to tend
42:37
to care enough about as a topic that we might dig into later in a one-on-one coaching session.
42:42
So it's a great way to preview some of the things that I'm excited about.
42:45
The other thing is sometimes I get referred to somebody who's never heard of me.
42:49
I don't know who that guy is.
42:51
And that's okay because I do keep a little bit of a low profile and that's all good.
42:55
So they can go, you know, they'll Google me.
42:57
They'll find these episodes and they'll be able to get a sense of, okay, either like
43:02
where he's going or I don't, before we get engaged in a one-on-one coaching arrangement.
43:06
So I like the idea that they can preview a little bit about who I am.
43:09
Yeah, that's awesome.
43:11
So I would suggest people tune in as well because you just got a slight taste and of course
43:14
Catherine is awesome as well.
43:16
So it's building bigger lives.
43:18
We'll put links into that to the show notes, both to the Apple Spotify and the YouTube.
43:22
And then what do you want to, anything you want to give a mention, a shout out we have
43:25
to the building champions, right, for people who are curious about coaching, want to learn
43:29
more?
43:30
Yeah, I mean, listen, here's, I've got a very personal feeling about this.
43:35
So I'll go ahead and use your podcast as a platform to say it, you know, Daniel Harkovie
43:39
launched building champions on a sales mastery stage in 1996.
43:44
Wow.
43:45
I mean, we are literally the original coaching company in the mortgage space.
43:50
And because of my dear friend Bill Hart moving along to another platform that I know you're
43:53
familiar with.
43:55
He perhaps was that, you know, really well-known part of our brand because he was out there.
44:01
He was on stage as he was, he was online and I've decided that I'm not willing to let
44:05
our brand die in this industry simply because Bill went on to do some cool new things on
44:10
his own.
44:11
Daniel Greg Harkovie and I still believe deeply that this is not just the industry we
44:15
came from, but it's the one we want to be in until somebody's at our funeral.
44:19
So if you'll just let me say today, I am, I probably haven't been this excited about
44:24
the housing industry as I've been since I joined building champions.
44:28
I think we're just about to enter a nice long run of growth in this industry and because
44:34
technology is finally going to play a positive role in where we're going, I actually believe
44:38
we're going to deliver a better version of being advisors than we've ever been able
44:43
to deliver.
44:44
And frankly, I'm excited about it.
44:46
So yeah, building champions has has not left the building and I'm going to plan our flag
44:50
strong and make sure we are present and hoping as many people as we can over the next
44:54
decade.
44:55
Well, you should because I agree with you.
44:57
There are probably, you know, rank at the very, very top of the most impactful coaching
45:01
organizations within our industry and if coach thousands and thousands and many people
45:06
that I've had on the podcast here as well before.
45:08
So that link will be in the show notes as well.
45:11
Before I let you go, I got to switch up and get personal here for a second.
45:14
Did I read something correct that you are a songwriter?
45:17
Is that, is that true?
45:21
Put me on the spot here, buddy.
45:24
Let's just say I do enjoy playing music and I do occasionally enjoy writing music with
45:32
my good friend Frank Boxberger and we had the pleasure of writing a song during the
45:38
COVID season that we recorded did a demo track of it.
45:42
It was fun and he got to play it for a guy that he records a lot with and publishes
45:47
music with.
45:48
The former lead singer of the band, Kansas, guy named John Elefante and John got to record
45:56
one of the songs that we wrote and demoed and it's now on one of his latest releases.
46:01
So yeah, that's kind of fun to get to get one of your songs recorded by one of those
46:06
people.
46:07
I grew up listening to Fight Fire with Fire when I was a kid and now that guy is singing
46:10
one of my songs.
46:11
Wow, that's crazy, man.
46:13
That's amazing.
46:14
So free tickets to Kansas whenever they're in town or what?
46:19
I'm more likely to get us into a foreigner show, but that's another topic that's probably
46:23
take us off on a left hand turn, but let's just say I've got a little more of an in road
46:28
with the Rock and Roll Hall of Famers at foreigner.
46:30
Oh, well, yeah, I'm definitely going to ask you about that next time.
46:33
Okay, cool.
46:34
Are there any other things we wanted to share with people before we let you go in terms
46:38
of links and how to follow you?
46:40
Yeah, I appreciate that.
46:41
I mean, you referenced our podcast, building champions.com is where you'll find our company
46:46
website.
46:47
And I want to encourage people, you know, one of the things that they maybe maybe should
46:50
know is right in the menu bar are resources and we have free resources available.
46:54
So don't think that you're not signed up for coaching, therefore you can't get some
46:58
of these tools that we just referenced in our show today, you know, please feel free
47:02
to go there and check them out.
47:03
And if I can be of any help to you, you can certainly get my contact information on
47:07
the website.
47:08
You know, you can follow me on LinkedIn.
47:09
That's where I'm most active in our industry.
47:12
And I just appreciate being here with you.
47:13
I've been listening to you all the way back when my one of my clients, Brent Palmer, was
47:17
a guest on your podcast probably six years ago.
47:20
And Brent sent me the link and said, Hey, check this out.
47:23
I'm a guest on a podcast and we both laughed and said, What if anybody listens to podcasts
47:27
and look at Jeff Zunford, you know, you have not only led the way, I mean, I talk about
47:32
us in the coaching industry.
47:34
I think you in mortgage podcasting, you, you've literally blazed the trail.
47:39
So I appreciate the opportunity to finally close the loop and be on a show with you today.
47:43
This is great.
47:44
It's, it's too long coming.
47:45
I apologize for the delay, but ideal timing and really, once again, I want to stress for
47:50
people who want to get started on your vision plan.
47:53
Some of the things we talked about here today, building champions dot com does have lots
47:57
of free resources like the personal vision guide, focus plan and other things.
48:01
So go check those out.
48:02
I mean, what the hell?
48:04
Start doing the, the self work to prepare the mindset for 2025, Michael.
48:09
I know you got to go appreciate the time so much, man.
48:14
Really great to be with you, Jeff.
48:15
I hope we'll get to return the favor on building bigger lives and I hope everybody in your
48:20
listening audience continues to listen in because you're doing great work.
48:23
You've got great guests and it's always good to be with you.
48:26
Thank you so much.
48:27
Listeners, Hey, if you like this, you know what to do, share it with somebody.
48:29
First of all, and then secondly, leave us a review right in the app.
48:32
Wherever you're listening on this right now, appreciate you tuning in.
48:34
We'll see on the next one.
48:35
Bye for now.
48:36
Okay, that's it for today's episode.
48:37
Before we wrap up, I just wanted to remind you about my agent classes, your proven
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So if you're ready to take control of your agent referrals and grow your income,
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visit mortgagemarketing.pro or check the link in the show notes.
49:08
And while you're there, don't forget to check out the success stories from
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other mortgage pros who've already seen incredible results.
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Thanks for listening and I'll see you on the next episode.