Latest / Becoming Flame: Where Sensuality, Sovereignty, and Sacred Power Ignite / The Parenting, Trauma & Nervous System Patterns That Shape Our Adult Life with Grace York, Psych.
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- Kait Tregenza: Hi Grace and welcome to the podcast. This episode of Becoming Flame is brought to you by Phenxx. Phenxx is a ritual luxury house devoted to erotic feminine embodiment. We create alchemical intimacy oils and functional fragrances infused with spagyric botanicals designed to soften the nervous system, open the body, and awaken life force vitality. Our formulations are crafted as tools of self-initiation. They are not cosmetic. Hello and welcome to another episode of Becoming For In podcast. am your Kate, I'm your Kate host. I am your host. English is hard guys. English is super hard. ⁓ What's my name? Kate. Hi, I'm Kate. I'm your host. I am so excited about today's episode. We are talking to Grace York. Grace: Hello, thanks for having me. Kait Tregenza: ⁓ I'm so excited about this. think what I'm going to personally, I'm going to get so much out of this conversation. And I just wanted this conversation to actually benefit so many other women, mothers, people in general. You have such an interesting, nuanced background and specialization. I don't think I did you justice in the introduction. I'd love to, you know, give us a Grace is a psychologist who is passionate about helping children and families better understand how to connect with each other, enabling them to face life's challenges more effectively. With a focus on connection as foundational to her approach, Grace is committed to empowering individuals and families with the skills and tools they need to build resilience and live fulfilling lives. She's They are not decorative. They are designed to be felt. They are designed to shift. Each oil facilitates a cellular shift into relaxation and receptivity, activating and opening up an archetypal femininity that your body knows and is yearning to step into. Give us more insights into your practice. What are you seeing? What excites you about the work that you're doing? Why are you so passionate about the work that do? Grace: Yeah, cool. Great question. ⁓ It's really funny because just the other day we had a group supervision at work ⁓ and we were just talking about, yeah, just re-grounding in our why, like why we all do this. ⁓ So perfect timing for it, although I'm not very good at being succinct. so I'm psychologist, registered psychologist. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: passionate about working with neurodiverse individuals, children, adolescents, parents, individuals who have experienced trauma. And she works a lot with Indigenous Australian children as well. Grace has extensive experience in areas including complex trauma, attachment difficulties, disability, neurodiversity, behavioural difficulties, eating disorders, complex family dynamics, bullying, anxiety, depression and dissociative presentations. These oils allow the body to open safely into sensual intelligence, magnetism and creative power. They open the libido and open creative sexual energy. When the body is safe, it softens. When it softens, it receives. When it receives, it creates. And when it creates, the entire world shifts. Grace: ⁓ I work in complex trauma, predominantly with kids and families, but also work in a private practice with adults one day a week. and I guess more broadly, like what I'm saying, and this, like, it's, it's kind of funny cause this is also the story of how I met you is, that in, the clinic and out in the community, I see a lot of. Kait Tregenza: Grace's research thesis explored the lived experience of parents with ADHD, and she strongly believes in flexible tailored therapy approaches that respect individual abilities and preferences. Grace is trained in therapeutic modalities such as EMDR, which I absolutely love. EMDR, sorry, I absolutely love. So that stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. If you've ever done it, it is so effective. It is... We believe that women who sit deeply in their bodies, in their erotic intelligence and sovereignty, become powerful creators of their lives and the environments around them. Our products are initiations into that coherence. Luxury in experience. Devotional in use. Transformational in effect. Get yours now at phenxx.com That's P-H-E-N. Grace: mothers, families, people that are just really disconnected from those around them. And you see them scrolling on their phone. You see the mums at the park with the kids like desperately trying to get their attention to show them a leaf or something like that. And ⁓ we met at a women's festival where, you know, like Kait Tregenza: In my opinion, in some ways, it's more effective or more fast acting than hypnotherapy or something like that. But she also has a whole bunch of different ⁓ techniques, including CBD, dialectical behavioral therapy as well, play therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy. Grace lives and in Australia. ⁓ xx.com Grace: the women, all the women there are super grounded, super embodied, really connected, really attuned to their kids and to each other, really open-hearted. And yeah, as a psychologist, I guess I work with a kind of skewed population, but I'm just seeing less and less of that. And I think we're all seeing less and less of that in the world. Like so much more anxiety, depression, ⁓ loneliness. Yeah, just. Kait Tregenza: I got her on the show today because ⁓ ⁓ and she basically had a lot of information to give me about neuro attachments, ⁓ cognitive attachments, but also emotional attachments and nervous system attachments. ⁓ And I'm such a... ⁓ Grace: disconnection in communities and even just disconnected people in their families with their friends. Life doesn't look like the movies. I think it's more and more, I guess, even since modern technology as well, ⁓ we're seeing more disconnection in the world. So that's really important. Kait Tregenza: a huge fan of understanding our nervous system and our attachments and how that actually shows up into every single thing that we do in our life. All of that, which is not being fulfilled in our attachment or our nervous system is playing out subconsciously. So a lot of the time we talk about our wounding or our like specific things that happen to us. But once you move through a lot of these really massive things and like you cover off like the really big ticks of like Grace: ⁓ for me, and that's kind of my why is, kind of for selfish reasons too, like, ⁓ I want to feel really connected to those around me. You know, I want to have really close knit friendships, like close family, and feel really supported. And I think we all do. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: These major big T traumas happened to me and I moved through that and I processed that. I'm really fascinated to talk to Grace about how that imprint onto the nervous system or onto your attachment in childhood actually kids continues to show up in your adult life. And then on the flip side, how can parents actually approach parenting in a way that develops strong It's because I hate this concept of the word selfish. I want to use the word for its etymological truth, which is of the self, to be of the self, to be completely consumed in the self. And my approach to parenting has been if I can be completely selfish, and that means in self in my body, embodied. Grace: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: secure attachments in their children or in their child and regulated and functioning nervous systems that actually the baseline of your life is function, not dysfunction. And I think for many of us who come to adulthood and come to a sense of like radical responsibility around our healing and around not healing for healing sake, but like Grace: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: Present here with me with me 100 % I then can share that with my child and my child ⁓ Knows she is the most ruthless teacher I've ever had in terms of presence mindfulness and Capacity to just really truly be because the moment I'm out of my body the moment I'm thinking about something else the moment I'm for an outcome. like, I know that I'm here for this huge big mission, but my nervous system keeps getting in the way. I keep collapsing in these moments where I want to expand or my attachment plays out in, you know, my relating to other people. I lose my power or I lose the effect of who I am because these things that got, you know, ingrained in me or imprinted into me in my childhood. ⁓ Not that I'm a warrior, but you know, I'm a single mom. all falls on me. So there are some stuff that sometimes I need to think about. She is like attuned to it. The moment I move out of my body, she's in it. She's like, what are you doing? Where are you? Where? I can't feel you. Where are you? I don't know what to do. And I instantly see it in her behavior. And so I've learned as a parent, now feel like they're really holding me back. And I think this conversation, I really want to get into like the nitty and gritty and like help us each understand how does our nervous system actually show up in our day-to-day life? What can we do to actually start to parent ourselves? And if we are parents ourselves, what we can do to actually make sure that our own children never have to do the work of my child's behavior is a reflection on my personal capacity to be inside my body, to be present and to be attuned to myself and my own energy because my child's nervous system and her safety and her sense of self and her sense of like what's good and what's right in the world is me. And I'm not there, he doesn't know what to do. And so that started to become my rewiring nervous systems or attachments or whatever it may be back to a baseline of normal so that we're not all craving absolute chaos and drama and trauma as our so-called normal. So, you know, huge topic of conversation. We're recording this on a Friday afternoon. So, you know, I'm hoping that Grace is up for the challenge, but ⁓ let's dive into it. Let's welcome Grace to the show. absolute deepest fascination. And, you know, not that I have a psychological background or anything like that, but it was like this PhD that I was engaging in. was like, watching the kids in the park, and then watching the parents and how they related. And it's exactly what I said, these parents who are I liken, if you're on a if you're on a phone, you may as well be doing drugs. drinking, smoking, whatever you think that's really terrible to do in front of your kids, that phone is worse. Like at least if you're smoking and you're looking at your kids in the eye, in some ways that might be better. They might feel you. You're polluting their lungs, but you're connected to them. And so ⁓ I think we have a really deep ⁓ lack of awareness, but also misunderstanding of how Grace: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: crucially and cognitively and bodily damaging it is to not be there with our children. I think what the power of being a single parent is and not having anyone to throw this off to is I needed to parent in a way that was really sustainable. And so Connected parenting is actually the most sustainable thing. So we don't have a witching hour in our house. We don't have tantrums in our house. We don't have those kinds of ups and downs and dysregulation. And it's not because I'm a superhero. It's actually because I do very little. So when doing the big grandiose things, we're doing life as... Grace: Yeah. ⁓ . Kait Tregenza: two people going together. I just, I'm so interested, like, what are the things that parents, these things that they think they need to do, these big grandiose things that actually create this connection instead of connection? Grace: yes. Yep. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ good question. Good question. I guess like I should probably frame this in saying like I work, yeah, as I said, in like complex trauma. So often it's not just the kids that have experienced the trauma, it's the whole family. ⁓ and I'm working often with very distressed parents. and in the adult clinic, I'm working with adults that were kids in a very sort of distressing environment kind of thing. ⁓ So what are some of the things that parents think they should do or think they need, which aren't actually, which would tell me that their focus is on the wrong piece is ⁓ strategies to manage their child's behavior. ⁓ more instead of less like do they need to do more they think they need more things ⁓ you know more routines more actions more chore charts more reward things you more consequences. ⁓ They, ⁓ when you're coming from a place of disconnection, you're not interpreting your child's behavior as communication. Like I hear a lot of parents say to me, know, what's, you know, what's the difference? Are they actually struggling here or are they manipulating me? And I'm like, your child is never trying to manipulate you. you're interpreting that through your lens of disconnection. But I want to highlight that the parents that are struggling with dysregulation, they're missing that. Inside them is a scared, disconnected little child as well. So they're trying to parent from their child self who's being hurt and taking it personally when their child does behaviors that are, I don't love the word triggering, but triggering to them. What's triggering to the parent is when they're triggered, it means something's coming up in them that is actually their hurt in a child rather than their grounded adult self. Does that make sense? Kait Tregenza: It makes so much sense. you know, I did not grow up in what you would call a loving, calm, gentle home. ⁓ I grew up with a very violent alcoholic, a very one. The kind of spectrum that I would put my mother on is like an emotionally immature. ⁓ The worst end of that would be a victim style narcissist where, you know, guilt and. ⁓ in meshing of my identity and her identity, you know, we, I have three siblings, ⁓ we were pitted against each other in great competition and we were always in competition for my mother's love and attention in a really, ⁓ in a really overt way. This is not something that was happening behind the scenes. There was a lot of violence. There was a lot of yelling. There was a lot of freezing out. ⁓ There was a lot of, ⁓ Grace: you Kait Tregenza: volatility. My dad was also a mining engineer, so he would be there and be, you know, the kind of person that Like I have hyper vigilance to this moment. Like I'm always checking myself. Like I'm the kind of person I walk into the room. I know where the exits are. I know what everybody's feeling. I've got like the temperature gauge on everybody's anger. ⁓ I've never known how to relax in my life until I came to this point of like, you need to relax, you need to relax. And it's really hard to tell somebody who grows up in an environment where there is no safety to relax. They don't know how. Grace: Amen. Yes, yep. Kait Tregenza: So my life in terms of how I became attuned to love and attention was I need to do something for it. I need to perform for it. need to, these are the things that are available for my mother to love me or give me attention. And And yet despite all of that, I was the black sheep of the family. And so these stories that were told to me over my childhood, reiterated and reiterated around my wrongness and ⁓ my acceptance of my own innate wrongness became the way that I would perform for love for my mother, became the over-performing child. I became the over-performing student sports person. Grace: you Kait Tregenza: you know, all of these extracurriculars. And when I became a mother, it was for me, because I'm very visual and I'm very feeling based, I was so able to have these almost out of body experiences of when my trigger was coming up. And because they happened so early in my life, because my life was very chaotic with my parents right from birth, ⁓ that there was a very, ⁓ there was never a bond between my mother after birth. And so the rejection that I felt ⁓ not to my own child because I was so connected with her, it was like, it was the... Grace: and Kait Tregenza: The jar in me was very distinctly from my child. So I think it was easier for me to distinguish between this is my trigger and not something I feel for my child. And I started working with an amazing practitioner who helped me to raise myself. So every day I was having, ⁓ I would say like, my parenting is to me and my child exists. Grace: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: as like it was this not a distancing in terms of like love or like closeness, but like I could work out that the parenting needed to apply to me and that she would receive it through me because I was parenting myself. And I think that becoming a mother, I didn't even realize how disconnected I was from my mother until I had a baby. Grace: you Kait Tregenza: And that was visceral. That was really visceral. And everything else for me started to make sense in my life about why I felt certain ways. And I stopped gaslighting myself and I stopped being able to be gaslit because of the way that I approached my triggers in parenting. Grace: Yeah, oh wow, what an amazing journey. I particularly Kait Tregenza: Listen, wants to have that childhood, but you more, you don't want to pass it on. Like you, that's. Grace: No. Yeah, absolutely. But I think you've done an incredible job of using becoming a parent as a prompt for you to be able to work on those things and recognize, you know, those, those, ⁓ you know, challenges and trauma that's coming up in you rather than and what sometimes, yeah, I see a lot of parents sort of just doubling down, increasing their guardedness and thinking of their own children as the problem, unfortunately. And ⁓ what you've done instead is face what's come up in you to process it. And there's like a couple of things that you said that stood out to me, ⁓ which were that when you were a child, you had to accept your innate wrongness or that was the message that you received. And that's a really common one that I see particularly like in the adult clinic that I work in is that Kids take responsibility for... the dynamic between themselves and their parent or the dynamic between themselves and their siblings. Kids, more often than not, will internalize disconnection or unsafety or ⁓ anger as their fault. And then we become adults that have learned, I'm unlovable, ⁓ I'm alone, I'm unsupported. ⁓ I'm not good enough. I'm stupid. Do you know what I mean? And even if they know it cognitively, you don't believe it. Yeah. So the work that I do with adults is really exactly what you said. Like a lot of, I don't call it reparenting, but I call it, I would probably call it processing the childhood wounds so that the adult self Kait Tregenza: I didn't know what you meant. Grace: and the child's self can be integrated. And we're not, when a trigger comes up, getting sucked into our and responding from our childhood wounds, which is exactly what you've done. As a mother, you haven't been able to. Kait Tregenza: There are days where I snap, right? There are always days where I snap, but the commitment that I've made to my child and to myself and to my own inner child is that I go and repair. ⁓ Grace: Yes, yes. The beautiful thing is you don't have to get it perfect. We're all human and we are built for connection, rupture and repair cycles. Like nobody is ever going to get it perfectly 100 % of the time. But coming back to connection, repairing is the most important thing you can do. It doesn't matter if you have a hundred ruptures a day. If you repair and your child trusts you and feels connected to you, You're doing it right. It's not about not making mistakes. Kait Tregenza: The challenge that I had in learning this and learning that the strength of my relationship with my daughter increased when I owned my mistake. And I also saw that when she had a human moment, she could then come and say, I'm really sorry I did this or that. And I haven't met that many three-year-olds who know how to take accountability for their actions. there's a lot that's modeled in that relationship. And so I thought, hey, Grace: ⁓ you are. us. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: I'm nearly 40 years old. My mom's nearly 70 years old. Maybe. And she's watching this and she's like really making commentary and all of these kinds of things. And so I have invited her if she would ever like to apologize to me for anything. And I think that there's a real... ⁓ There's a really, ⁓ I don't know how to put this. I guess it's like it's an immeasurable pain to know that you as a child will never be apologized to by a parent. And I don't, I think only a child who knows that they've never been apologized to once in their entire life by the terrible things or even like the mundane things that their parent does to them. And that's what reinforces my knowledge that This parenting is not about being perfect. It's about being human. And it's about coming to each other and being like, I didn't do so well today. That must have hurt your feelings. I didn't want you to feel that way. And I'm really sorry. was, and sometimes I go into an excuse that I'm like, there's no excuse. I'm just sorry. I didn't mean to. I'm going to try to be better next time. And I realized as an adult, I didn't know how to apologize to people. I didn't because I had never been apologized to. And I didn't know how to apologize. I explained myself. Grace: Yes, I'm the exact same. Kait Tregenza: I explained myself about why I did what I did in excruciating detail. Or the other thing I do, did, sometimes do, is validate, over-explain myself ad nauseam, like explaining that I have taken up space in the world. Grace: Yeah. Hmm. But do know what that sounds like? explaining and explaining it sounds like a person that wants to be seen and understood but isn't ready to be emotionally vulnerable and be felt. And that's me too, you know, and it's a walk in progress. Like I don't think we're ever done growing. ⁓ And that's like, and I guess that's another thing that sort of comes up with some of my adults that want to become parents, but are afraid of ⁓ not doing the best job ⁓ is I think becoming a parent will show you where you need to grow next. You know, you're not, you're not going to be completely evolved and, know, woke before and then no challenges ever come up again. Like I think we're all working on ourselves and it's about the journey, not the destination kind of thing. Yeah, but definitely one that resonates with me. I'm a big explainer rather than coming to my partner and saying, this is how I feel. I will explain what's going on for me. and hope that he interprets how I feel. But yeah, we've gotten good at noticing that. Kait Tregenza: And it's cool with a child, I don't have the opportunity to use long explanations into reasoning behind things or like telling her long stories about, well, when I was this age and blah, blah, a three-year-old doesn't have the capacity for that. And they don't have the interest in that. They're interested in how do I feel with you? And it's been a really Grace: And then. Yeah. Yes. Kait Tregenza: good thing for me to stop replicating the, please see me, please understand me, please know me versus I'm never gonna explain, I'm never gonna apologize to you. You I'm just only going to tell you why I did it and why it's your fault and why this is actually all convoluted and back onto you and ⁓ now I'm wrong. And so that was my dynamic. And so I can't give that to my three year old because cognitively that's and developmentally. Grace: Mmm. much. Yeah, yeah. Kait Tregenza: What appropriate. And so it was this breakdown of, I'm sorry, like what needs to happen? I'm sorry. Please forgive me. I love you. Thank you. Grace: Yes, yes, keeping it at their level. ⁓ Something you said just reminded me of something else that I think parents and clinicians, I mean, and more broadly, probably everyone at times, ⁓ might come across this is that You can only go at the pace that your nervous system is ready for because I will meet parents that, you know, are trying their best to support their child and doing all the things quote unquote, right. But the child is still distressed. I've even had parents say to me, and this, this was like nail in the head moment. ⁓ my child is acting like they had. the childhood that I had and I had heaps of trauma, but they don't. And I'm thinking, yeah, cause even though you're doing all the things, your nervous system is putting out a message of unsafety because you haven't processed your stuff. And that, and that's one of the biggest and hardest things I think that kids are demanding of parents is Kait Tregenza: Mmm. Grace: to feel safe and connected and whole, they need the parent to do that work on themselves first. Exactly what you said at the start is if parents are not feeling, and I mean, not even just parents, know, this is adults in friendships, adults in relationships. If you're stuck in the pattern of your childhood and you don't know how to feel safe, regulated, You can't be safe and regulated in relationship in any relationship. Does that make sense? How it's foundational. Like what you said about the body at the start is we need to learn and it's the responsibility is on everyone. If you're an adult, it's your responsibility to do this for yourself, to learn, to teach your nervous system, how to first feel safe and second feel regulated before. Kait Tregenza: Yeah, so much. Grace: you open up the capacity for connection, deep connection, safe connection, ⁓ genuine, authentic connection in relationship. Yeah, so those parents that have the kids that are having big behaviors, if you're not regulated as a parent, it doesn't matter what you do right and what you do wrong. In fact, you're better off doing something wrong because you'd be behaving authentically to how you're feeling and then apologizing later when you are regulated sort of thing. Kait Tregenza: is interesting. ⁓ Grace: I mean, not that I'm advocating making your child feel unsafe, but do know what I mean? If you are gritting your teeth, trying not to yell, but saying all the things right, your child's just feeling your energy. So yeah, you need to learn to regulate yourself. Kait Tregenza: Mm. And I think, so I've always expected my child to be deep feeler because I am. And so I've always expected that. So I've looked for it. ⁓ And so when I noticed that she feels it's almost like, because we were very telepathic at, you know, in, in my gestation and then postpartum, obviously she's three years old. speak. Grace: Bye. Kait Tregenza: language out loud now and it's a lot easier but there was always that you know ⁓ I would always wake up and tend to her before she cried you know like she didn't need to be the you know crying and we you know she's always slept in the same room and then eventually co-slept ⁓ and it's interesting because I personally sleep so much better when my child is next to me than you know ever Grace: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: if she has a sleepover at her grandmother's house, I do not fall asleep until she wakes up in the morning. And she's had a whole rough night as well. so, not this is a conversation about co-sleeping, but for me, it's that regulation that's so tactile and we're extremely contact-based, very sensorially needing to be touching all the time. And so... Grace: you Kait Tregenza: I always found it interesting that I became that kind of a mother because I don't think that I've ever wanted to be or was held by my mother. And I thought that I was just a not a touchy feely person. ⁓ and then having a child and being the kind of mother that's always touching and always wanting contact and wanting to sleep next to you. And like, I would rather her sleep on my head than her to sleep in a different room. And yet I don't remember, it's probably been more than 30 years since I've touched or held or been held by my mother, if ever. Grace: Yeah, wow, wow. ⁓ It sounds like there's been so much healing for you in being able to be embodied in the type of parent that you didn't get to have and give that to your child. Kait Tregenza: Mm. It's ⁓ such a knife edge, right? Though, because you want to be the parent to your child that you yourself wish to have, but that might not be the right parent for your child. And so that's it comes back to. I have to be the parent that I wish that I had for me so that then I act from a neutral place to assess what's the parent this child. Grace: Mmm. Yes. Kait Tregenza: needs. And there's a lot of extra steps in that approach to give a neutral parenting ⁓ approach and like come to that with neutral eyes about, what does this child in front of me need? Because this child in front of me is not me unhealed. Grace: Yeah, yeah. How do you do that? What do you find? Kait Tregenza: This is great difficulty. How do I do that? ⁓ The wonderful thing I think about coming into my ⁓ realization point of what unconditional love truly is and not what I experienced it as growing up, that That opened a portal to me for immense rage, immense hate, loathing, like true loathing. And learning to alchemize that, learning to process that in a way that wasn't eating me alive anymore, that could allow me to turn up. And also like removing the outcome of ⁓ if I process this anger and hatred and loathing and rage about my own childhood and about the way that I was parented, I don't have to show up in love. and in unconditional love towards that, can show up neutrally and build a new relationship from the ground of neutrality toward my mother. The main primary focus for me for that was my mother and I don't speak very nicely to each other. ⁓ To be honest, all my siblings speak the same way to my mother and my mother speaks the same way to my siblings. And then we move out of that family dynamic. Grace: Mm. Kait Tregenza: and everybody speaks like a normal person. And then sometimes even the siblings talk that way to each other in the house, but then we move out of the house and we can speak completely normally to each other. So it's a really interesting ⁓ communication style. And so my child, as she became older and older, started to pick that up and she started to, you know, parrot that back. And I was like, no, I don't want that. Grace: Thank Kait Tregenza: And so I knew that I needed to alchemize the anger and the hate and the abandonment and the betrayals and all of that kind of stuff that I was still carrying so that I didn't show up to the relationship holding that towards my own mother that gave my child the opportunity to be that way toward me because I didn't want that relationship. I didn't want that ⁓ dynamic to be ⁓ you know showcase to her and for her to be able to mirror that. Grace: ⁓ Yeah, yeah. Wow. Kait Tregenza: but hugely difficult because, know, just as an example, my mother tells this really funny story where I was crying as a baby and she locked me in the house and went to the shops. And I was like three months old. And she's like, she was such a nightmare that I had to do that. I just couldn't take it. And like for many years, I would get really angry at that story while everybody was laughing about it. Grace: or Kait Tregenza: But I was the child, right? So I'm like, my emotion is off here. Like my registration of this story is off because everyone's saying this is funny and I'm the problem. I, the baby, was the problem. And so it wasn't until I became a mother and understanding what a three month old baby is and then being like the wrath and the rage and the anger that I Grace: Yeah. Thank Kait Tregenza: the abandonment that I felt at that finally, like it clocked in. So a lot of these stories that I'd heard didn't compute until I was caregiving position. Grace: Mmm. Being in their caregiving position justified how you were feeling and what you already knew. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think, I think what's what is a beautiful thing about this society is, is that people are speaking up about things like that. And people are speaking, just speaking up a little bit more when people say things like that, and people are questioning it, you know, like, that's not funny. ⁓ And you're acting as if the The three month old who cries is inflicting that on you, the adult and the parent who's responsible for that baby. Wow. That's not okay. Yeah. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: I had to be really mindful as well because as a parent I was absolutely obsessed, not obsessed, but like I was very cognizant and I was very over attentive in some ways to my infant child. And then it got me questioning, am I over attentive or have I come from an inattentive ⁓ background? Have I come from a dynamic or a baseline where my needs are not attended to? Grace: Mm. Kait Tregenza: And you don't have to have a psychology degree to know that I don't know how to ask for help as an adult. I've always been self-sufficient and self-serving. And so I was like, well, that doesn't help. I don't want my child to grow up and know that she can. I want her to know that she can do everything herself and that she's capable and strong and amazing, but not that she has to. Grace: Mmm. Yeah. Yes, yes. And sometimes that's a really common one, ⁓ like common thing that we see coming out of households where children weren't supported the way they needed to be, weren't emotionally supported, is that ⁓ those children, this isn't the only way it can turn out, but can grow up to be incredibly smart, incredibly capable and with kind of a high need for control because they've always had to do everything themselves. Yeah. Coming back though, the reason I asked how do you do that and how did you alchemize that stuff is because I think sometimes adults aren't as don't know how to lean into processing things as well as kids, you know? ⁓ And kids don't need to sit down and talk and unpack things, adults don't always need to either. ⁓ Kids' brains are still developing, so they can process things by creating new meaning, which is being developed as their brains develop. Adults sometimes need to go back and process things, where kids are doing it through their development, which is such an amazing thing. And that's why I love working with kids and parents, because helping parents understand that is where the kids really benefit from, the kids benefit the most. Where I work at the Nest Health Hub, we run an intensive program. The psychologists work with the parents or carers and the kids work with mental health OTs and their child sessions are videotaped. And then the ⁓ psychologists and the OTs have an hour to consult after the parent session and child session. And we like consolidate. what's going on in the family unit, what's happened at school, you know, what's going on for the child and break down the video into small increments and unpack the child's behavior in terms of their regulation need, like what is presenting in their body and how does that link with the information that I've got from mum and what was mum's... Often I say mum, unfortunately, it's mostly mums that come. I do have some beautiful dads that I work with. ⁓ And I always encourage both parents to come, but yeah, it's mostly moms. yeah, it just, in psychology, think historically there's a, in like working with kids, there's a history and the norm is to drop off your kid at the door and say, can you fix my kid? And. really, I think there's so much value in working with the parents because if they can understand their child's developmental needs and their child's behaviour through a developmental lens, then they shouldn't need my help. You know? And their child's needs will be met because Psychologist is a role that we've created in society because society doesn't do what we need it to. Families aren't what we need them to. Communities aren't doing what we need them to. We don't feel supported and heard and seen and ⁓ okay with the connections that we have. And that sort of is a product of the way Western society is nowadays. ⁓ So if we can come back to that. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Grace: and it's a natural way of being. are mammals, we're a connected species. We rely on each other, we need each other. ⁓ and the idea of individualism was created through, I don't know, something else. It doesn't make sense. Because we're happier when we feel connected and understood. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So in the context of like how specifically then, I think there were a few main things. First of all, I decided... Grace: Mm. Kait Tregenza: In the context of my life at that time, I was doing very well professionally. was, ⁓ but my role was very demanding. And I think there's a part of me that had enough humility to say to myself, I will always be able to be replaced at the work. that I do, but no one else can be the mother to this child. No one. No one else is coming. No one else is equipped for it. No one else has the, you know, the genetics and the biology and the, and the gestation that I can give to this child. Rightly or wrongly, she chose me. Here we are. This is what we're doing. And so I've always had this like philosophy in life of choose your heart. Grace: Ooh. Kait Tregenza: Life is always presents you with challenges. There are a few people, a handful of people on the earth that have been given grace, grace-filled life. Good for them. Go for it. I am not one of them. I have a karma clearing life. I have a cycle breaking life. And I knew that motherhood for me was an enormous initiation, partly because of the road to my conception and gestation. was very long. from fertility issues, from the connection that I had with my child almost five years prior. So I had a really strong affinity with my child and I knew that this was a really big role for me in life. ⁓ It was a long time because it took me a long time to clear as much as I could without having her physically with me to become even remotely the mother that I needed to become. Grace: Thank Kait Tregenza: And a lot of the time, because she was very ⁓ communicative via dreams and messages and things like that, I knew that I wasn't ⁓ where I needed to be personally and as a emotionally clear vessel for her. And I don't think she said that in an unloving way. think that she said that in a really loving way, but it's a very brutal, like truth is very ruthless, right? Like it is or it isn't, you're either there or you're not. And so I think that that really gave me a taste of what I was in for. Grace: Hmm. Kait Tregenza: and so when her birth came, it blew my entire life up. Like it blew my entire life up in such a way that I couldn't have ever predicted. And if I knew what was coming, I might not have gone through with it, which is why I didn't know it was coming. ⁓ in my opinion, but I then needed to make a series of really difficult choices. I can't deal with the personal. dissolution of my life and postpartum and caring for an infant and having a career and all the other things. And so when they say that, you know, you have 99 problems until you have one big one. And that was like my case. So it's like, I don't have any problems in the world anymore, except for me and this kid. And I've got to get this kid through it. And in order to get this get through it, I've got to get me through it because oxygen mask, baby. And so I could, not that I could in terms of like it was easy and dandy, as in I had to stop everything else and just focus on putting myself in a position to clear out. Grace: Thank Kait Tregenza: everything that was coming up. so every time there was an issue with her, I never thought, ⁓ she's doing, you know, she was an infant, she's a small child. So for me, it was like, okay, I've got to carve out and she has a nap time and I would sit and do my process. And my process in the beginning was I can't even do anything but just feel it. Grace: Mmm. Kait Tregenza: like just open the door like the tiniest little bit. And I was so, my nervous system was so shot. I was in freeze form where most of the day I couldn't really do very much at all, but like, okay, so five minutes, you can't do five minutes, do one minute. You can't do one minute, 30 seconds. And I built up and I built up and I built up the capacity to actually face and sit with. ⁓ Grace: Amen. Hmm. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: At first they weren't even like demons, they were just nebulous feelings. It was just like feeling anything. And it was like so mixed together and it was like, ⁓ my God, I can't do that. And I would just like shut the door again and be like, that's all I can do today. And so over time, I then built up the strength and capacity to sit with the most heinous of emotions that were literally ruling my body. Grace: Hmm. Kait Tregenza: and not flinch. But that didn't happen on day one. These were things that I was facing and hiding and suppressing and trying not to feel since I'm one month old or 10 days old, because that's when they were coming up for me. so when you have this stuff that's so old, it contorts. Grace: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: grows, it like it gets moldy and angry and so it's like one little tiny thing that could have been like dealt with in a day after years and years and years. It takes on its own form of consciousness and like attacks you when you try to feel it because it's so monstrous at that point. And I can tell you that I wouldn't have done this without my child because I didn't. Grace: Thank you. Kait Tregenza: I didn't ever sit down and do these things before I had a child. Grace: Yeah. Mmm. Kait Tregenza: I didn't have enough reason to. Grace: Yeah, yeah. Your child became your motivation. Kait Tregenza: She was such a priority for me to not... Because I think I had done all the therapy and I had done all the talk therapy, but all the other things as well, like somatics and various different spiritual modalities and all of these kinds of things, hypnotherapy, EMDR. ⁓ The resolute priority of not replicating my life for my child still happened. Still happened to me because it was marked in my nervous system. My attachment was I was I was so confused about the truth about love. The anytime that I had a really genuinely good loving boyfriend. I ran away from that guy. I ran away because he did not. make me doubt myself, he did not make me hate myself, he did not make me contort, make me feel inferior so that I could then like rise up and be like, no, I am great, I am, I'm gonna prove myself. And all of the people that didn't require me to prove myself and do something for love or didn't abuse me in some way, I was like, they're boring. There's no excitement here. There's no, I don't, don't, we don't have anything common. There's no spark. And so it took me a long time to understand. Grace: I'm going to It didn't match him. There's a bit of a delay in echo. I was just going to say those people didn't match the pattern of your nervous system, so they didn't stick. Kait Tregenza: They didn't want to, they couldn't stick. And so it wasn't until, despite doing years of therapy designed not to marry my father, I married my father. And I was very shocked at first. I was very shocked. Cause I was like, but I did everything right. I ran myself in circles to get. away from this. And I say in circles because you can run and run and run and run and do all the things and end up right where you started off. And it's a very humbling experience. It's very, very humbling. Grace: Amen. Yeah, yeah. I think that, I think that there is like a. There's a huge piece in what you've said and it's not about necessarily the effort that you put in, but the right effort. Like a lot of the time people come to therapy. and We can only go at the pace of the nervous system, but you know, there's the loops that we get stuck in and that's like exactly what you're describing running in a circle. And there's so many different types, they don't all look the same. There's the person that ⁓ is closed off emotionally, guarded, and will be in an intellectual loop of You know, describing the detail of what happened, but never actually emotionally processing it. There's the numbness. I wouldn't even call that a loop. That's sort of a stagnant, we're numb and yeah, everything we're in freeze. We're too unsafe to be moving. We can't open anything up. ⁓ but I think even showing up for the numb person is a huge, huge step. There's the, the loop, the emotional loop of, okay, I'm coming into therapy. And I cry every time, but I'm crying and I'm feeling not good enough. And I'm closed off from feeling anything else. I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. And I'm looping on that and I'm crying on that. It's me. It's me. It's me. ⁓ And I think, yeah, when I'm thinking of adults when I speak about these loops, not kids. Yeah, kids loop in their behavior, in their play, rather than... ⁓ in the same way but kids are processing through their play as well. Yeah I think yeah yeah so Kait Tregenza: Can you give an example? Grace: What I'm thinking of is Hmm a few things I'm thinking of a regulation loop, which is actually helpful for a kid if a if a child is sitting in chaos Showing that their body doesn't feel safe there, know, they they come in there like throwing balls at the windows They tip the toy box upside down. It's chaotic. It's messy. It's big. It's ⁓ If we can contain that chaos down into something that's regulating, that's like a good loop. So I guess loop is a word I use for good things or hard things. ⁓ so, you know, if throwing balls can become, let's aim it at this spot and we'll do it repetitively and we're getting the same feedback and it's making sense this time and it's becoming more and more contained. Okay, we're not kicking it as hard as we possibly could. Let's kick it at 80 % or let's see how high we can throw it without touching the roof. Okay. Using more control, becoming more contained. ⁓ or what, like, ⁓ a lot of kids do this at home, the, the, the jump crash loop. So I've got a little trampoline in my clinic and a little crash mat. they'll Jump and then crash, jump and then crash, vestibular proprioceptive input. But kids do this on the bed too. ⁓ They'll make themselves a little loop. Jump from couch to couch, jump from, you know, and that's really regulating for their body. Kait Tregenza: So that's like a natural thing that they'll do to just start to find some regulation or stuff. Yeah. Grace: If it develops a they're seeking regulation and they're leaning into what their body needs to be able to seek that. Does that make sense? Kait Tregenza: So how do you know when it's regulation and how is it just fun? Because it's fun to jump on the bed. Grace: ⁓ yeah, well hopefully it's both. ⁓ How do you know when it's regulation and when it's just fun? If it is regulating, they should be having fun. Does that make sense? If they're dysregulated, they might seek it. if it starts to, you know, if it's a kid, they're not going, it's, bath time's just finished and they don't want to go to bed and they're... Kait Tregenza: Okay. Okay. Grace: running away from you and they want to jump and crash or something. They're not calm and regulated because they're not ready to settle and they're running away and ⁓ they're doing things that are annoying to parents ⁓ but they're seeking something. Their body's not settled so they're seeking they're trying to seek regulation so their body can settle before bedtime. Kait Tregenza: love this example, because it does happen from time to time in our house, we don't get a tantrum, but she'll want to jump and she'll want to jump off the couch. And she I'm just like interested that she knows how to do things that will like soothe her. But the other thing that I do is if I can see that there's some frantic energy that hasn't gotten out from the day or we've you know, we've been in and out or busy that day and there hasn't been enough of a downtime routine, I will ⁓ Grace: Thank you. Kait Tregenza: She loves to be wrapped in the towel after the shower. And then I like wiggle her and like jiggle and jiggle and jiggle and jiggle. And then she laughs and laughs and laughs. And then she'll say, okay, that's enough. I'm ready for sleep. And then like, it was just a game that we started playing because, you know, it was something that I found really worked for her, but I didn't know the psychology behind it. Grace: Yeah. Yeah, so that's vestibular and proprioceptive input. It's regulating and you're doing it in a connected way. So it's pro-regulation. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. A lot of parents do this naturally. Like they'll find something and it's just lovely. Like that's the really cool thing about being a psychologist is when parents start to... ⁓ Kait Tregenza: So fancy. Grace: develop, like start to attune to the right lens. They're already doing so many things that make sense, that are supportive of their kids. And we just want to keep leaning into that. Your kids show you what they need. Like they ask you in their behaviors. It's just, we listening or not? Kait Tregenza: And are we attuned into seeing that not being naughty, running around after the shower when you're trying to get the kids into pajamas and bed and whatever else, and they're running around like crazy people, instead of seeing it as naughty, seeing it as we're not ready for bed, we're not regulated, we need to do certain types of activities to bring everything down. Grace: Yeah, and that and to be honest with you, most of the time, if you lean into that, you'll get them into bed quicker than if you resist that and try to force them to be calm when they're not, you know, they've got they've got some unmet regulation needs from the day, you know, it's best it's better to lean into that. And, you know, process through the needs meet the needs and then we can move to the next thing easier more smoothly. Kait Tregenza: Okay, so I want to shift into ⁓ attachments now. I know that you have a really unique and interesting lens that you look at through attachments. But I think at least using the word attachment for a general audience to start with and then I want to refine it. ⁓ I think for me, learning about my unmet attachment needs as an adult has been really illuminating into how I kind of do almost anything, not just relationships, but anything. So first, I want to really hear your nuance about it. Like what's the lens you look at attachment through and then what have you found in clinic and in practice? Grace: Yeah, yeah. Okay, big broad question and I might need you to help me break it down. But I guess I'll start with my lens. So I have the most brilliant supervisor and mentor, Phil Bird is his name. ⁓ And he has developed ⁓ a model that we use and in my clinic we're all trained in the model. ⁓ It's based, it's just a neuroscientific model ⁓ that is sort of a culmination of different theories and research in psychology, psychiatry, the sensory system, sort of all put together. So coming from like a complex trauma background in our work, it's a neurodevelopmental lens and it basically talks about developmental needs. so rather than like I'm not saying attachments not a thing. It's 100 % a thing. How to explain succinctly. ⁓ We think about the nervous system through... through a sequential model where the brain develops from the bottom up and the bottom, the lower parts of the brain are our foundations and our lower brain needs are really important for us to build upon. our midbrain and upper brain can develop and capacity comes online. sequentially as we meet those needs. So in kids, these needs, we're working to meet these needs from the bottom up. And ⁓ in adults, we have all the same needs because we are still a person with a nervous system, but we sort of go back and support them wherever needed kind of thing because adults have developed workarounds to maybe we didn't have our needs met in childhood, but we've found defenses or ways of coping with that that could be good or not so good. ⁓ But can we go back and work to support those needs for an adult, I guess. Yeah. So the most primary need which we've spoken about is ⁓ safety and that is related to the brainstem. ⁓ And the second part of the brain to develop is the diencephalon cerebellum sort of area. And the need associated with that is regulation. And then you've got the limbic system that is sort of more of our attachment system there. So the bottom two are really our body-based, it's sort of like the body brain. The limbic system is like our emotional relational brain. And that's where attachment develops. ⁓ which we're initially learning from our caregivers. ⁓ And the needs associated with the limbic system are control and connection. So control meaning like knowing what to expect, is my environment predictable, are the people around me predictable? ⁓ If they are and my needs for safety and regulation are already being met, then I can step into the need for connection. I can open myself up. and learn to connect. And then the last part of the brain to develop is the cortex. And that's our thinking brain. And the need associated with the cortex is learning. And what's emergent from integration of all of these parts of the brain is resilience. So that's bit of a mouthful, but. Yeah, that's, that's, guess, our lens and it's kind of an oversimplification, but yeah. Kait Tregenza: So if you were to undertake this practice, you would want to be taking really close attention and taking notes of these reactions that you're having to unsafety and the defensive or kind of hack kind of ways that you've built, whether in childhood or early adulthood. around how to gain safety when you didn't feel it. And then your job as an adult, if you want to repair that is to, I guess, undo what you've had job built and then go back and repair for safety at that initial rupture point so that you actually feel true safety in a neurological sense. ⁓ or in a never system sense, is that, have I understood? Grace: As an adult, I... Yeah, don't have to... It's not like we're going back necessarily to a specific memory or a specific point. It's more like... behaviors tell us what our needs are and if someone is you've probably heard of fight flight freeze for If someone is experiencing fight flight freeze Their safety responses. Is that pretty that's something you already know. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, that's Kait Tregenza: Okay. Mm-hmm. Yes. ⁓ That's like the basic, right? So what's Grace: That's the basic one. But that's an example that I think is easy for everyone to understand because I've heard of it before. That we're looking at the behaviors and we're understanding what is the underlying need. Okay, when we really think about that... What does that look like? Okay. Someone that's numb, disassociated, they're in freeze. They're not feeling safe. The person that's fighting at the pub that we, we all look at and think, you know, glad I'm not them. They're actually not feeling safe. They're fighting. They're really, nervous system's not feeling safe. They're not just being a dickhead, being an asshole because they want to be. their nervous system isn't feeling safe. And maybe they've grown up in a place where their nervous system hasn't learned how to feel safe in, you know, more broad environments kind of thing. And when we really think about that, we open ourselves up to having more compassion for these behaviors. ⁓ but yeah, I guess that's an example that we're most people are probably familiar with in theory anyway. Coming back to your question of what are we doing to work on that? What are we doing to reprocess that? That's the cool thing because we want to work well as a psychologist, I don't want to have a one size fits all in my approach. I know that we as humans all have these parts of the brain. Doesn't matter if you've got, you know, if you're neurotypical, neurodivergent, intellectual disability, Down syndrome, we've all got a nervous system and we've all got a brain. and your nervous system knows what you need. So as a psychologist, I'm trying to understand somebody's nervous system. And that's going to lead us to what's the next right step for them. Does that make sense? It's not very specific, but give me an example and I can tell you what I would ask. Kait Tregenza: Yes. ⁓ Just such a guinea pig today. Okay. Grace: It doesn't have to be you. You don't have to be the example. Kait Tregenza: think about somebody else though. Okay, I think a really, really common one is not just in the bad things that happen to you, because I think this is revealed when you're trying to upgrade your life, when you're trying to up level, right? I think a lot of the time that it's really revealed to me ⁓ Grace: Mm. Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: was that I will reject opportunities or unknowingly, or I will collapse under, if I go too quickly, too big, quickly, and I can't hold something yet. So I've learned, what I had to learn was first expand, first come, first come into safety, and then be able to hold more. ⁓ Grace: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: But I find it even really difficult because I guess the reason I was asking that question is because I don't think we know the certain threats to us until we are trying to make that life, because we know that something is in our life that is not working, right? But we aren't always great at seeing what it is until we're trying to get to that next level and feel like this pullback. Grace: Hmm. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: So I feel like the question is almost like, how do you find out what it is? Because that's almost like the hardest part about this. Grace: Yeah, yeah. Kait Tregenza: Because if you've found what it is, can actually, you can kind of work with that. Like, I feel like the bigger question is, what do you do when you know something's holding you back, but that's nebulous or, or, you know, it hasn't come into form or hasn't come into like cognition yet. And you were like, I can't name the thing that I know there's something. Cause the life that I have is based on how safe I feel. And it's based on my belief systems and it's based on, you know, Grace: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: my nervous system capacity. So if you know that your life is smaller than you cognitively want it to be, if you could see what it was, you would just heal it. The part is when you can't see it. Grace: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I also think the healing part can be pretty hard for a lot of people. ⁓ But I think like the best starting point is always curiosity because it sounds like you're like in your experience ⁓ once you've become aware of something, you're really good at processing it and ⁓ alchemizing it and helping yourself get into a place where you're feeling safe and you can move forward. But that's not everyone finds that easy. So I think. Kait Tregenza: Yes. appreciate that. Grace: Yeah. ⁓ I think when you, when you've noticed like something's not working from a mindset of curiosity, I think we need to start paying attention. Can you notice down to the moment when that feeling comes up? And it sounds like for you, a lot of the time, maybe those things are cognitions that come into your awareness, but for other people, they might, might be. It might be a physical sensation. might be an emotion. It could be a cognition. ⁓ Maybe it's something else. if you can ⁓ first notice, I guess, first notice and second, be curious. And I think what is helpful in therapy, but you don't need a therapist to do this, is explore that with someone. You know, the curiosity, sometimes it's helpful to have someone hold the space for you while you sort of unpack. ⁓ what was that feeling that came up? Like something was there, you know, and This is, maybe I'll share a little bit of my own journey as a bit of an example, just a recent part of my journey. I, ⁓ I've got chronic fatigue. I've had chronic fatigue for two years. My, ⁓ my allied health practitioners think it might be long COVID. ⁓ and it's sort of gotten worse. So, but I'm still sort of unsure. The jury's not. 100 % on that. And there was. Yeah, there was something that happened that really, I'll be more specific. My partner is from England and we went and visited his parents two years ago in England and there's just big family trauma, really dysregulated. ⁓ And the high fart was we didn't know what we were walking into because he sort of had lived out of home. not being back there, sort of didn't have the awareness yet of his family, of his family's pattern until we went back there. So I went in really openhearted, ready for, you know, lots of love and welcoming. And I was the, ⁓ villain who stole their son away to Australia. And we stayed with them in their house for two months and they didn't ask me one question about myself. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ but I can contextualize his, his parents have. Yeah. Big family trauma, big generational trauma, which I won't go into. And we went over, at the, at a time when I was mentally burnt out and I was ready for a holiday and resting. And it really wasn't that. And that, ⁓ that experience actually repeated. was sort of a repeat of my childhood experience where, ⁓ my mum was very controlling of me and, ⁓ my dad was absent and, I was the problem and, you know, all of that stuff. And I hadn't had to, yeah, I had found a way to do life without being in a position like that. Like I was in childhood again until then. And so my God came right up and, ⁓ yeah, after that experience. Yeah, this was sort of like the needle in the haystack of I've already got chronic fatigue, but I didn't label it. hadn't been diagnosed yet. And now my nervous system is just shot kind of thing. So we came home to Australia. I was on the floor crying for three weeks and. then yeah it was totally in my like safety, safety brain. ⁓ I was like super distressed, so was my partner. He had just been dragged through the mud as well being over there. ⁓ Yeah like you've, you're dressing different, you've lost your roots, like we don't like this new you and you know lots, lots. ⁓ so he, he couldn't support me. I couldn't support him. We were both just not doing great. ⁓ and so as life went on, unknowingly, I, yeah, I'm really good at sort of up here stuff, thinking brain stuff. So I, ⁓ yeah, developed, I guess, a guardedness of my emotional self and was intellectualizing everything. Yeah, so as I started processing that and, you know, as I got further away from the experience and started processing that with my own therapists and with some plant medicine, ⁓ It really landed that I've just been walling up my heart and I was just missing. just was through doing that. I was not fully being with my whole experience. I was trying to protect myself and that was, that's a childhood pattern that I had over explaining, ⁓ guarding my emotions so they couldn't, you know, so I couldn't be any more hurt. ⁓ But then it was creating disconnection because my heart was closed. I was disconnected from myself. yeah, after a... ⁓ after a pretty powerful plant medicine experience, ⁓ I had a really deep conversation with my partner and yeah, we sort of realized that together. ⁓ yeah, he realized some stuff about himself and I realized that pattern of mine. And even though I had been doing somatic work and all this stuff, like I had been doing it from a guarded place still, from a fearful place. we, yeah, I guess the example that I wanted to come back to, that's the context really, is that after that we started really finally attuning to ⁓ when we disconnect in conversation. And it could be just a minor, it could be just a minor thing, but it was really helpful to just. for a week or so. really bring our attention to it, ⁓ so that we could, so that we could process things really intentionally. So we'd be having a conversation and maybe there would like, we'd be having a normal conversation and maybe there was music on in the background. And then, you know, the dog did this or got her lead tangled or, you know, a few things happen and I'd just be like, you know, my energy would shift in the conversation and he'd be like, Hey, what's going on for you? initially I would sort of be like, I don't know, like I'm guessing. It almost felt like I was guessing too attuned to myself. It's foreign when you haven't like done that intentionally. Um, and it almost, yeah, felt like a vague guess. Like I think I feel overwhelmed and I think these are the reasons why. And it was such a weird experience. I asked my, you know, sometimes I get my clients to do it and I was sort of like, Kait Tregenza: and Grace: This is so funny. Like it's, it's a lot harder than I thought it would be. and I'm a clinician, but yeah, having been guarded for so long, like I was really disconnected from my emotions. So for him to notice where my energy shifted in conversation and bring my attention to that. And for me to think, not explain what happened, but feel. It felt distant at first, but then the more I practiced it, the more I was like, ⁓ this emotion's coming up. Okay. Now I can, I know what that feels like in my body. I can notice it easier next time sort of thing. Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Yeah. And I think that's what I was sort of trying to explain when I was coming out of my own freeze-forn, you know, ⁓ period. You're like, how do you, people just say, how are you? ⁓ Grace: Yeah. I actually know. Kait Tregenza: it full or am I numb? Is everything great or am I numb? Grace: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: I feel so great because I feel nothing. Grace: Mmm. Kait Tregenza: And then the preparedness that I needed to feel before I was willing to feel. I think that shouldn't be underestimated, especially because we're so trained, we're so, so, so, trained to live here, to be at school, to do our to-do list, to do our work, to be on our computers, to scroll on, you know, all of the things like, Grace: Yes. Well. Kait Tregenza: If we can live as floating heads, we'll have this like almost like really great life because we're not living anything. And the choice to go into your body and feel it, you're going to feel like an absolute idiot at the beginning. You're like, I think I need a feeling chart. Grace: Yeah. Mmm, yeah. Kait Tregenza: I think I need a color coded feeling chart to help me with what does overwhelm feel like? What does anxiety feel like? What does existential dread feel like? Because it might be any of those. But it's crazy because what you were doing with your partner in terms of like you like being distracted or being taken out and him being like, well, you left me the Grace: there. Kait Tregenza: The training that I got from this toddler or not being present versus being present was like mastery, mastery. She's a ma- toddlers are masters in are you here or are you not here? Because I feel you or I don't. The end. It's like you're here or you're not. I don't, I don't need the why. I need you here. Grace: you Thank Kids are so good at it. Kids are so, so good at being in their bodies, being present, demanding that of you. Kait Tregenza: Okay. And so then coming back to the attachment style, because I think I understand all of the layers of how that brain works. And then how does that show up in our lives? Like, I guess as a clinician, you have just a short conversation or maybe you might need longer, but eventually you start to work out where someone is and you can either... Grace: Thank you. Kait Tregenza: fill in the gaps of what may have happened to them, but I feel like that's somehow less relevant than how that person operates in the world today and what they kind of need in order to fill them. So you spoke about freeze-forn and the rest of that and what that needs. I always associate that more with the nervous system than the attachment, but how are they linked for you then? Grace: Yeah, okay, good question. Good question. So why I probably use more language around needs rather than attachment style is because It captures the needs capture more because say I grew up with avoidant attach avoidant attachment. Yeah, I could provide context around that, but I think your audience probably already understands avoidant attachment. Yeah. I went through, in my, yeah, teenage years and early twenties, I was in relationships where I would, um, be really connected, but then hit a point where I just needed to escape and get out or do my own thing or the closeness was too much and that was too vulnerable. Yeah. So avoidant. but how I would, how I would, um, put that into needs is moment to moment behavior. So like, in the moment where I was tolerating the closeness, maybe my behavior, ⁓ yeah, maybe I'm like cuddling on the couch and I'm cool with that and I'm relaxed ⁓ and my need is connection or... I'm up in the cortex because I'm like totally integrated. We're like connected and we're having like a really reflective conversation and I'm feeling being really genuine and authentic. ⁓ So that could be the need in one moment. And in the next moment where ⁓ being where I so you wouldn't necessarily like associate that behavior with being avoidant but that do you know what I mean like that's not where the like that could be part of the pattern of avoidant attachment but like that particular behavior is maybe more of a connection need and then when I'm yeah like say not not that this is what I did but say if I was like not responding to text messages or seeking attention elsewhere or something like that, like that's where you would label that avoidant attachment. I would label that, ⁓ I guess, describing the behaviour of saying, say avoiding text messages. I would say maybe that's with, yeah, avoidance, withdrawal. Maybe it's a regulation need because you're not able to be relational. ⁓ If you're seeking attention elsewhere, I would say maybe that's a control need because you're... ⁓ trying to gain. Does that make sense? Kait Tregenza: I understand. The attachment style, it's not all inclusive of the moment to moment needs of each moment in that day or that week or that. So you can have an overall avoidant attachment style, but still have needs that are not avoidant needs necessarily. Grace: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if we label, if we are, if we are observing and paying attention to the needs rather than the style, none of the needs are bad. Like the needs are needs that are being presented. so like needs that are unmet and they come from somewhere. I feel like attachment styles and diagnoses, um, sometimes have like a negative connotation like okay I've got this one and I need to work to not to have secure attachment instead or you know there's there's no if we focus on the needs there's actually no negativity in that it's just how can we work to support and meet our needs so we can become more safe calm regulated connected people. Does that make sense? Kait Tregenza: Yeah, because I do it does make sense. Grace: and our behaviour shift as a result of meeting our needs. Kait Tregenza: Yeah, yes, I get that. Because I think there are certain contexts where I'm like, have a completely secure attachment. Like the things that, the behaviors that I exhibit, the way that I live my life, there's so much security in that domain of operation. And in other domains, it's like, ⁓ my God, I don't, this is so disorganized. Like I'm up, I'm down, I'm attached, I'm avoidant. I'm like, you know, ⁓ Grace: Mmm. Kait Tregenza: And I think that the different people tend to bring out different things in our needs as well. So you can be in a relationship with someone who really understands your needs and all of a sudden you like melt into a very secure, attached person. You don't have any fears about. cheating or flandering or anything, gambling, any kind of like addiction, anything like that. And so you secure your, your calm, your, you know, you're relating to that person, like a completely secure person. You meet another person that triggers every single one of your deepest wounds and doesn't fulfill any of your needs. And you morph into a completely different person as well. And so I like the way that you're talking about it is like attachment is not this static thing that you are. It's. Grace: Yes. Kait Tregenza: there are aspects of us that may display those needs in certain contexts and not in other ones. Grace: Yeah, it's a way of capturing a presentation. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: I like that capturing a presentation of a person or of an attachment or of a situation. What were you capturing? Grace: Yes. If I'm, yeah, it's a way of capturing a presentation. I guess, attachment styles can be related to like parent child or at the usually in the context of either parent child attachment styles or adult intimate relationship attachment styles. So they're, they're capturing a present, an overall presentation in that, but they're not capturing. Yeah, the nuanced behavior and what the underlying needs are and how can we work on that style sort of thing? How can we change those behaviors into ways that are more relational, ways that feel better for us? ⁓ And that's where I find the needs lens really helpful. Because exactly as you've said, ⁓ presentation can change depending on the people that we're with, it can change depending on the environment that we're in as well. And it can change like dependent on what else is happening around us. ⁓ you know, are we at your mom's house where you and your siblings are all talking, you know, in like reverting back to that childhood sort of family way of speaking to each other. And then how does that affect the way you are in your intimate relationship or in your parent child? Kait Tregenza: Mm. Grace: sort of attachment in that environment around those people kind of thing. ⁓ So what I find like more helpful rather than like working on attachment styles ⁓ is meeting the underlying needs. Like can we support the foundations that sit below that presentation so that our presentation changes. Does that make sense? If we're feeling safe, if we're feeling regulated, if we're feeling, if our need for control is met and we're feeling connected, we are presenting with a secure attachment. Kait Tregenza: It's. Mm. Yeah. ⁓ Does this show up in a lot of different ways and lot of different domains? Like is how you feel in your relationship with your parent, how for example, you know, is that going to show up in how you make money or how you do relationships or can they all be separate? Grace: capacity and our behaviors. Hmm, that's a really good question. Can you give me more detail or can you ask it in a different way? Kait Tregenza: Really? So I have, when I, in the context of what you're talking, and I'm learning this on the fly. So in the context of how you're talking, I would say that I have a disorganized attachment to my mother or I have an unsafety with my mother. And that's like a primary thing, right? And so I always see primary relationships. ⁓ They don't show up in in periphery stuff for me, like in periphery things, like for example, friendships or ⁓ less intimate relationships. I don't see the same patterns, but I feel like money and creation is like so linked, at least for me and my personal journey is very linked to my relationship with my mother because how she created me is how I create other things and. the undoing of a lot of that has helped me unlock my creation capacity. Of course, in other domains where it's not like my physical, ⁓ there are aspects of creation that I do really innately, that they're my innate gifts and I'm like in security and I'm like so, so good. But what I'm talking about is when it comes to the worthiness of accepting payment for the creation. So, Grace: Hmm. Kait Tregenza: Creation for me is really easy, but it's around the worthiness factor. It's about the safety factor. it also shows up for me in, so money and intimate male relationships are really like interlinked for me. And I'm seeing the attachment dynamic or the nervous system ⁓ patterns that I have with not so much my father, but really with my mother show up in those two domains. Grace: Yeah. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: And I don't think I'm alone because I've had a lot of conversations with this about this with other women, particularly when the women are self-employed or self-generating their own income in some way. So they might be a clinician or practitioner, but they operate as their own business, even within a clinic or they're a hairdresser and they operate their own chair. You know what I mean? Like some kind of self-generation aspect to it. Grace: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: I'm just wondering if that's a clinical thing or if that's an anomaly or if you've seen that or Hmm. Grace: Really good question and I... don't want to speak with confidence because this isn't something that I've actually ⁓ spent a lot of time exploring, but anecdotally in my clinical experience, ⁓ think where your patterns show up like I think that's what you're trying to ask is like where do like it? Yes, yes. Kait Tregenza: Because everyone might have a different domain, right? It'll be different for them, but something that transfers. Grace: Where your patterns show up, I think can vary from person to person. So I don't think it's always in finances, but I think relationally, it's always gonna show up in some way, shape, or form. ⁓ Does that make sense? In terms of other domains outside of relationships, I think it could show up. like to varying degrees across the board. But we Kait Tregenza: Mm. Grace: We sort of, we interpret our childhood lessons. in some ways, like our childhood does shape who we are, but we can also shape who we are through our adult experiences. ⁓ Like if you had an abusive parent, that doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna be bad with money. Does that make sense? Like you could have a really attuned parent that had a lot of distress around money and then you could have a lot of distress around money. Does that make sense? Like it's not... ⁓ It's not your attachment or your relationships that, ⁓ guess, determine the other domains where that pattern shows up. But if you've had distress, like around that specific domain or something challenging around that specific domain or a belief, like you said about worthiness, like if it's a belief, then that's where it could be showing up in those specific domains. Does that make sense? Like if your belief is I'm unworthy, that makes sense that it's showing up in what's coming to you. If your belief is like, I'm unlovable, then, you know, maybe, maybe that's not affecting, you know, your finances, but it's affecting your relationships more kind of thing. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: definitely in a different way. Makes a lot of sense. think there's so much in this for parents ⁓ of children that we've spoken about today. But I guess if you had an opportunity to talk to every parent in the world, at least the ones listening to this podcast, ⁓ what would you most want them to know about all, like how could you distill all the wisdom that you've Grace: Mmm. Kait Tregenza: seen, experienced, your lived experience, your clinical experience, everything that you sort of could package up as something that you could gift to parents as wisdom that you would love them to understand and parent differently through. Grace: Yeah, that's a really beautiful question. ⁓ I'm just taking some time to think. ⁓ want to say something like. the more well you become, the more well your child will become. ⁓ Yeah, so. If you're not okay and you're trying to make your like help your child be okay, you really need to start with yourself. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: It's really simple. Grace: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: It's really simple, but the mission is huge. Grace: Yeah, yeah, it's simple, but it's really hard for a lot of people. Kait Tregenza: Grace, I have learned a lot. I hope other people have benefited from being a guinea pig on this ⁓ chat and you sharing your own experiences as well as ⁓ both a clinician and your own personal journey. And I really hope that you start to feel better soon and somebody can help you with your long COVID or chronic fatigue. I am so grateful for this. Grace: I'm on the way. Kait Tregenza: I'm so grateful for you, the work that you do, the fact that you hold a vision for a connected world, for parents to be connected to their children, and that you worked tirelessly towards that goal and that outcome, and that you practice that yourself is so rare, and you're such a beacon of light, and I'm so grateful for your time today. So thank you so much for being on the podcast. Please tell people where they can find you and connect with you and work with you. Grace: Yes, thank you so much Kate, it's been such a pleasure. ⁓ You know, there's so much to talk about and sometimes it's really hard to distill it down and find the words, but it's been an absolute pleasure and you're amazing. Yes, if you want to get in contact with me directly, you can email me at graceyorkpsychology. ⁓ My last name is spelled Y-O-R-K, no E on the end, Graceyorkpsychology. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Pedro. Grace: Yeah, my complex trauma clinic where I work is the Nest Health Hub in Newcastle. Yeah, and I'll also just give a shout out to my mentor Phil Bird. He does trainings, so Phil Bird psychology. ⁓ Yeah, like he does parenting training and cool things. Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much. Kait Tregenza: And we'll link to all of that in the description below. Grace, have an amazing day. And I'm so excited for other people to be able to share in your wisdom and the way that you see things. And honestly, my biggest great, like you really changed my life when you came up to me and you made your own noticing of my parenting. So validating. Grace: Honestly, like that experience like seeing you with your daughter and like the other beautiful mothers there at the women's festival actually brought me to tears because I see so many dysregulated mothers in the waiting room on their phones kids demanding their intention and when I see you know when the mums start to become more regulated themselves and they're sitting there with their child peacefully reading a book or playing a game or like you were just like delighting in their kids, it's really moving. That's what we need in the world. Kait Tregenza: Well, you're bringing me to tears now, but thank you. It's quite a bit of my story today. So it's a long, it's not an easy journey to do that. that one, I feel it and I accept it, like, because that's my mission, to be the mother to my child in a way that ⁓ lets her become anything she wants to become without doing the 20, 30 years of work. Grace: Anytime. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: that so many of us have to do. There's nothing more important and there's nothing more gratifying when you get it right. And I do genuinely, I don't say this out of shame or judgment because I know how hard it is to be a mom. I'm a single mom, but it's so much easier when you connect and it's not work. It stops becoming work and you're just two peers working together and walking the pathway together. that doesn't... happen overnight and it doesn't happen in a vacuum. And so to be seen by you, means everything. Grace: I'm so glad. I'm so glad. Yeah. Beautiful. Kait Tregenza: All right. All right, everybody, we will catch you next week for another episode and look up ⁓ Grace. Her details are going to be in the show notes and she's amazing. Connect with her, go and see her. Grace: Thanks.