Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / Bare Marriage Episode Review: I Disagree, Sex Actually Should Be A Sexual Yes Space For Men... And Women

Transcript

Bare Marriage Episode Review: I Disagree, Sex Actually Should Be A Sexual Yes Space For Men... And Women · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi everybody, and welcome to the dr.
• 0:07
  Psych mom show. So today, I am talking about
• 0:11
  another podcast because somebody referred it to me and a Facebook
• 0:17
  group member. So if you join the Facebook
• 0:20
  group, you get a lot more of my attention.
• 0:22
  And I sometimes listen to stuff that you recommend, although I
• 0:25
  really find it hard to listen to podcasts.
• 0:28
  You guys really have my deep respect for listening to this
• 0:31
  one because I can't get through these goddamn things at all.
• 0:35
  So before I get though to this one, which is about sexual, yes,
• 0:39
  spaces or whatever you should definitely subscribe the most.
• 0:44
  Recent one was the benefits of having sex when you're not
• 0:47
  already feeling close and if you think that's a crazy idea than
• 0:51
  it is the podcast for you, okay? So there's this podcast called
• 0:58
  bear marriage, which is Christian women.
• 1:01
  I am obviously not a Christian podcaster therapist Thing.
• 1:05
  I don't know much about these women.
• 1:08
  I know that it's a Christian podcast, but it's not supposed
• 1:12
  supposed to counter these. An Evangelical teachings that
• 1:16
  are that men are superior to women.
• 1:18
  So, all right, fine, I agree. Men are not Superior to women
• 1:22
  and certainly men should not force women into any sort of
• 1:26
  subjugation, whether that's sexual or otherwise, the problem
• 1:31
  comes when some of these These ideas so you're going in
• 1:36
  opposition to something bad fine but then you can go sweetie.
• 1:39
  You could swing so far on the other end that that's not so
• 1:43
  good either, you know, and it gets kind of extreme on the end
• 1:47
  of that men are to have basically no say in the sex life
• 1:52
  kind of. And so that's not good either.
• 1:54
  So I was trying to find one that I would agree with and that I
• 2:00
  would understand because some of it was very the titles.
• 2:03
  I didn't even understand where References Etc.
• 2:06
  One of them was about sexual. Yes, spaces.
• 2:08
  So like should set like his sex is sexual sexual.
• 2:12
  Yes, no is sex. I yes.
• 2:14
  Space for men and then the woman makes an illusion about the
• 2:19
  Montessori school and kids should have a place where they
• 2:23
  don't get told no and so they can go around and play with
• 2:27
  whatever they want and touch whatever they want.
• 2:29
  And and then I thought it was going to go to and this is what
• 2:33
  sex should be like you know. No, it went to this is what men
• 2:38
  think of sex as and this is what these male authors that are
• 2:45
  writing these Christian marriage, books say that sex
• 2:48
  should be for men and it should not in fact be like that at all.
• 2:53
  And and so then she makes this analogy where I mean this this
• 3:00
  is something where she said that there was this this guy you
• 3:04
  know, Smell Christian author, whose writing about how women
• 3:08
  should be good, sexual partners to men.
• 3:10
  And he says that an erotic thing to do in a hand job is to use
• 3:13
  your makeup brush to brush his balls, right?
• 3:16
  And so, then she and the other woman get very upset about this,
• 3:21
  you know? And they do have somewhat of
• 3:23
  their joking a little bit. But mostly they're very upset
• 3:27
  because it's expensive, your makeup brush.
• 3:29
  It's your thing and and you shouldn't have to use it if you
• 3:34
  don't. Want to on his stuff and you
• 3:36
  could get a staph infection in your eye and you shouldn't touch
• 3:40
  his dirty, genitals with your makeup brush and, and they
• 3:45
  weren't kidding about that part. They were, they were upset that,
• 3:49
  that even the woman's things should be used for the man
• 3:53
  because his pleasure somehow comes.
• 3:55
  First in all these domains and sex is this?
• 3:59
  Yes, space where she can't say no to him and it really It went
• 4:05
  very far afield from anything I have ever seen.
• 4:08
  Now if any of you guys that are listening are Evangelical
• 4:11
  Christians, where you believe that, the man should always get
• 4:17
  exactly what he wants in bed. 100%, doesn't matter what's
• 4:21
  happening and she can never say no and you are in charge and
• 4:27
  this is your dominion. And it's a yes, space.
• 4:30
  I have never met a man like that.
• 4:32
  I mean, it is certainly possible.
• 4:34
  Boil that the men that are in these situations with these sex
• 4:38
  lives where it is all. Yes, space.
• 4:41
  Well certainly they fucking don't need any therapy, I guess
• 4:43
  because they are they are very happy man but I don't see why
• 4:48
  it's like that either. It is, of course, certainly,
• 4:50
  very possible that I am so secular based on how much I
• 4:53
  curse, you know, alone, they wouldn't want to come in that.
• 4:57
  I have never encountered such a person.
• 5:01
  You know, this seems knocked Real because I do work with a
• 5:06
  lot of Christian couples that in fact are coming in because they
• 5:11
  are so sexually. Repressed in the bedroom, the
• 5:13
  wife says, no to everything, usually is why they're coming in
• 5:17
  and some people have rejected, then some of the religion, but
• 5:22
  some are still Christian and they're coming in and they're
• 5:24
  still talking to me. But it is, of course, possible,
• 5:27
  that and probable that these people are the ones who are less
• 5:33
  adherent to Whatever Christian principles and mores.
• 5:36
  They are just by definition. They're more open minded
• 5:39
  definitionally because they're coming into me but I'll tell you
• 5:42
  something if this is going more mainstream you know as is
• 5:47
  evidenced by its appearance in my Facebook group when I'm
• 5:51
  obviously a secular therapist and everybody knows that who
• 5:54
  signs up and comes into my stuff, my group and whatever
• 5:58
  this is not how a marriage goes for 99.
• 6:04
  Bead percent of married men, certainly not ones that are
• 6:10
  anything. But at the real fringes
• 6:12
  religiously, the idea of sex being a yes space for men is
• 6:17
  like Preposterous. I mean the idea that a woman
• 6:23
  would do anything. She doesn't want to do in bed
• 6:27
  for the majority of people that I interact with is just a
• 6:31
  Preposterous thought, you know? And so So, yes, if they're if it
• 6:36
  is incredibly culturally different, and it seems like it
• 6:39
  really is. And there are these Evangelical
• 6:42
  men that are forcing their wives into sex, terrible, you know,
• 6:47
  that's real bad, you know, get out of that.
• 6:49
  However, you can and if those women have no idea that they can
• 6:55
  possibly have any rights in the bedroom, they certainly haven't
• 6:58
  been exposed to my stuff, hope they do get exposed to myself
• 7:01
  and to this bear marriage thing. This so Spear marriage thing,
• 7:05
  seems to be a rescue system for very, very, you know, extreme
• 7:12
  cases where women believe that they have to be dominated by
• 7:15
  their husband in the bedroom to please.
• 7:17
  God. I don't see any of those people.
• 7:20
  In fact, what I see when people recount these things to me are
• 7:24
  that they were always told that sex was bad and then never much
• 7:27
  told anything after that, you know, and so kind of sex was
• 7:33
  bad. Sex was bad, sex was bad, then
• 7:34
  they got married. Married.
• 7:35
  They knew they were supposed to have sex but one or both of them
• 7:38
  were incredibly repressed and it was very hard to do and the
• 7:43
  woman says no to everything. So the women that kid don't feel
• 7:46
  like they can say no, they may be an abusive relationships.
• 7:49
  They may be at the very extremes of these cultures but they are
• 7:54
  nowhere near the mainstream of what I see.
• 7:57
  Which is that women constantly say no.
• 7:59
  So we don't want to swing of course, if this stuff is now
• 8:04
  made me. Stream.
• 8:05
  What I fear is that then the idea of sex being a yes space
• 8:10
  for men and women which I very much think it should be in a
• 8:12
  healthy marriage is now not there and it's thought of as bad
• 8:16
  sex should be a yes space for both men and women.
• 8:19
  I talk about this all the time, you know, coming from a place of
• 8:22
  yes instead of no saying yes to things being open-minded, I talk
• 8:27
  all the time around open-minded, which is the same thing as a yes
• 8:30
  space. You know and I say this about
• 8:33
  all aspects of the The marriage and I have a post titled, if you
• 8:36
  want your wife to be more open-minded in the bedroom, try
• 8:39
  being more open-minded outside of the bedroom.
• 8:41
  But like, a lot of this stuff is it's about like women where the
• 8:47
  men it's paint. It's painting men, very bad.
• 8:50
  And it sounds like they've had some very bad experiences with,
• 8:53
  with some men in this extreme version of the religion where
• 8:59
  the men think that they have to be super dominant.
• 9:01
  I would see any of these men, you know?
• 9:04
  I mean there's That these men don't care if the women orgasm,
• 9:06
  I've not seen a man who doesn't care if the woman orgasm, they
• 9:09
  are like riding their whole self esteem on.
• 9:12
  Whether the woman orgasm has, you know, like being a guy who
• 9:15
  can get the woman off is considered like the number one
• 9:18
  thing. I posted something on Facebook
• 9:19
  about how you could switch the order of operations.
• 9:22
  So that the man gets off first sometimes because that could
• 9:25
  arouse the woman. And like all of these guys came
• 9:29
  out of the woodwork to say, I was wrong, no shock, you know,
• 9:31
  everybody has an opinion but none of them.
• 9:34
  Said, the woman shouldn't have an orgasm.
• 9:36
  I mean, the most of them are like, oh, well, you know, that's
• 9:39
  not how we do it. She always comes first, I always
• 9:41
  make sure she comes first. She always comes first, you
• 9:43
  know, real man, always make sure she comes.
• 9:45
  First comes, first comes first. So, I mean, even in porn porn is
• 9:50
  terrible, right? For married sex, teaches you?
• 9:53
  Nothing? Good.
• 9:53
  But the reality is, even in porn.
• 9:56
  The idea, is that the woman is coming.
• 9:59
  So like, it's not like, men, don't like that.
• 10:03
  The idea is that She's coming. Yeah, she comes within 30
• 10:06
  seconds of penetration Max and it's bullshit, but men like
• 10:10
  that. Yes, average healthy men want
• 10:15
  the woman to enjoy sex. They wants, you know, they
• 10:18
  certainly want to explore but they also want the woman to
• 10:21
  enjoy herself. You know?
• 10:23
  I mean this this this podcast was like it's it was so it
• 10:27
  reminds me of fair play and go back and listen to my fair play
• 10:30
  podcast, and it mentioned equal equal equal like over and over.
• 10:34
  Over and over. But I've not seen sex lives be
• 10:37
  equal because there's only one gate keeper.
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  So if it is extraordinarily different in this Society, okay,
• 10:44
  you know, that I understand people would need to listen to
• 10:46
  something that says, yes, women should be equal.
• 10:48
  But the reality is, what I see is that women are gatekeeping
• 10:52
  all over the damn place. They're saying no to everything
• 10:55
  there. They certainly don't need to be
• 10:57
  told not to use their makeup brush on his testicles if they
• 11:00
  don't want to most women are like yeah.
• 11:02
  Fuck, no, no, what? You know what?
• 11:05
  You know what. I think it's just a makeup
• 11:07
  brush. If you said to a guy yeah, by
• 11:09
  different makeup brush to put it on your testicles.
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  Most guys would run out in 3 seconds to do that if that was
• 11:14
  some way that they wanted to explore.
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  So in if this is mostly directed to extremely religious people
• 11:22
  that act as people did multiple Generations ago, fine.
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  But if it's becoming more mainstream than it is, it is
• 11:31
  perpetuating. This idea of men has extremely
• 11:34
  You know, selfish and insensitive.
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  When the reality is I don't see most men get their desires, even
• 11:41
  given a nod in the bedroom. It's pretty much just only what
• 11:46
  the woman does. What wants to do only when she
• 11:49
  wants to do it and anything else?
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  You just says no to. And that is in a good marriage
• 11:55
  either. Not on either side.
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  I think sex should be a. Yes, space for men and women.
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  Like there's there's the idea of sex being You know, fun and when
• 12:06
  everything is thought of as like, it has to be like even
• 12:08
  Steven, then it's not going to be fun.
• 12:10
  It's not going to be, it's not going to be giving it's not
• 12:14
  generous good giving and game, you know, as Dan Savage, says
• 12:18
  GGG and they talk down about this Christian marriage author,
• 12:23
  who I'm sure is a is terrible and whatever way I'm even like,
• 12:28
  like it's not my domain. So I mean, if everybody thinks
• 12:31
  like some big Christian male old marriage book, Writer is a, you
• 12:36
  know, the big anti-feminist. I mean, it tracks that he
• 12:40
  probably is, who knows, but the reality is that, you know, if
• 12:45
  he's saying that she should give her husband, a nice hand job.
• 12:50
  Why is that bad? Like, all right.
• 12:53
  So that, that's one opinion, you know?
• 12:55
  He's a man and maybe he's a big anti-feminist, maybe that's the
• 12:59
  entire thing of being a Christian but not, you know, not
• 13:04
  a full Not any kind of Christian but this sort of Evangelical,
• 13:07
  Christian. But either way, is it so bad
• 13:11
  that she would give him a handjob?
• 13:12
  I mean, I don't think it's so terrible.
• 13:14
  You know. Is it so bad that she would use
• 13:16
  a silk scarf? That's another one.
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  They didn't like they said, that they should have used a pocket
• 13:20
  square. They said men have soft things
• 13:23
  also. And so using the woman silk
• 13:27
  scarf to to rub on him instead of his pocket square.
• 13:34
  Like, what century are we who has a pocket square?
• 13:38
  I don't know anybody with a pocket square.
• 13:40
  So, I mean, it was just so, like, I don't know, like, you
• 13:45
  know, like the Fairplay thing, like, dividing it.
• 13:47
  So, very strictly, like, the woman stuff is her stuff and she
• 13:52
  should never ever have anything, you know, forced into her
• 13:56
  domain. She shouldn't even use a silk
• 13:58
  scarf. If she doesn't want to, she
• 14:00
  should find his pocket square or, and this was serious, he
• 14:03
  should go to the Fabric store, she go to the fabric store to go
• 14:08
  buy fabric like like they have closed around, you know, they
• 14:13
  have like a I mean like he was you was just use true.
• 14:17
  It was something really weird. You know about this idea that
• 14:22
  like he should have to go out specifically, they gave the
• 14:26
  examples of the dollar store in the fabric store.
• 14:28
  She go to the dollar store to get a makeup brush and a fabric
• 14:31
  store, to get a piece of fabric Like Liquor.
• 14:34
  Is though, like you there's no Amazon or something like it was,
• 14:37
  it was almost like to humiliate him.
• 14:39
  You know what I mean? Like, he would have to go to the
• 14:41
  dollar store to get like a makeup brushes.
• 14:43
  His his sister. He's excited.
• 14:46
  Handjob. Should only be worth a dollar?
• 14:48
  I don't know. It's like strange so and then
• 14:51
  they of course, said that like oral sex is more important for
• 14:55
  women, like men should go down on women, more than women should
• 14:59
  go down on men because frequently women need that to
• 15:01
  get off but men can get off anyway.
• 15:04
  Which is wrong. You know, I'm in a lot of men
• 15:07
  have trouble getting off especially as they get older.
• 15:09
  And also oral sex is not the only way.
• 15:12
  There's also your hand too. And of course, there's many,
• 15:17
  many things that people can do to get each other off in bed.
• 15:20
  But the idea that like, because the man can get off other ways
• 15:24
  than oral sex isn't as important for him, as it is for her, was
• 15:29
  bizarre. Also, it was bizarre because
• 15:31
  most men are dying to give their wives oral sex and love to give
• 15:34
  If their wives oral sex which again makes me think either
• 15:37
  there is this crazy population out there that I've not heard
• 15:40
  hide nor hair of and 13 years you know doing couples work
• 15:44
  which again is possible. This is an extreme and small
• 15:47
  subset of people who would never reach out to somebody secular.
• 15:50
  Okay. But again if it does go more
• 15:55
  mainstream it paints men as so selfish and domineering and
• 16:01
  patriarchal and I'm see any of this.
• 16:03
  I see guys. That have knocked out an oral
• 16:05
  sex in like 20 years, you know, much and and go down on the
• 16:09
  woman like before every encounter because she has to
• 16:12
  have her orgasm. So there is another way to go
• 16:18
  about this and it is to say that sex should be a.
• 16:22
  Yes, space for men and women and people should feel, you know
• 16:27
  free in bed. What if feel free in bed, you
• 16:30
  know, really you don't want to feel so constrained.
• 16:33
  So so if if this allows some women to realize that they have
• 16:39
  rights also, when they don't think that they do, that's great
• 16:43
  but I don't like the part where it says that men in general or
• 16:47
  even Christian. Men are so selfish because I
• 16:52
  don't, I don't see that, you know?
• 16:54
  And, and I do think that it is a nice thing to give your husband,
• 16:58
  a hand job, you know? I mean, that isn't something
• 17:01
  where and they did say that would be nice, but then It's
• 17:04
  only nice if like we're using, like his specific pocket square
• 17:09
  and makeup brush versus like hers.
• 17:11
  And then it gets kind of into the weeds.
• 17:13
  Like, the spirit is gone of it. You know, the generosity is
• 17:17
  gone, I guess the generosity is gone, which makes sense.
• 17:21
  If it is a culture where women get stepped on all the time, but
• 17:24
  if this in any way moves away from just this tiny subset, then
• 17:30
  it's painting men, know if no pun intended with A broad brush
• 17:35
  and saying that they are very selfish when it isn't what I
• 17:38
  see. So what I fear is that women are
• 17:41
  going to look at husband's that aren't selfish and be like,
• 17:44
  yeah. Now that I think about it, you
• 17:47
  know, you are a pretty big asshole and quite honestly, that
• 17:50
  is sometimes what I see after women take.
• 17:54
  You know, various like women's courses and stuff like that
• 17:57
  online or like courses, but led by women about how to reclaim
• 18:01
  your libido and but you know, Basically, what they do is they
• 18:06
  come home and they say their husband actually, you know, I
• 18:08
  don't think that we should have any sex because I should only
• 18:11
  have sex when I'm in the mood. And it's like, when you're going
• 18:13
  to be in the mood, you're a responsive desire, female in
• 18:16
  monogamy, how are you going to be in the mood?
• 18:18
  I don't understand. When do you get in the mood?
• 18:20
  You know, and it's never and so, then she assumes that because
• 18:23
  she's ever had sex when she wasn't in the mood.
• 18:25
  Then he's basically an asshole like all these guys.
• 18:28
  She's being taught about. Now that are assholes and he's
• 18:31
  just been a guy who's trying to get laid, sometimes in his
• 18:34
  marriage. Because that's how he wants to
• 18:36
  feel close because that is like, literally how men feel close and
• 18:41
  just like how for her. It's him saying I love you or
• 18:44
  kissing her hugging her saying she was beautiful whatever all
• 18:47
  the shit I tell him to do to you know.
• 18:49
  So so my point is take this stuff and and think very
• 18:53
  critically whenever you hear something where one gender is
• 18:57
  bashed, think about who's saying it.
• 18:59
  Think about their experiences? In this case, maybe these people
• 19:03
  really have these Experiences where there is tremendous.
• 19:08
  You know, it is a tremendously unfair situation for women who
• 19:12
  feel extremely forced into things that they don't want to
• 19:16
  do constantly. I do not see that though.
• 19:19
  As the norm that if it was the norm Generations ago which it
• 19:23
  was, it is not, you know, the, the majority of people that I
• 19:29
  see and that I even saw before, I had a platform.
• 19:33
  We're Men that That were not barely ever having sex, you
• 19:37
  know, like, that's what happens when women aren't happy in.
• 19:39
  Marriages, they stopped having sex.
• 19:42
  So only sociopaths are like raping their wives.
• 19:45
  You know, people that are really, really fucked up.
• 19:48
  So most people are then just not having sex.
• 19:50
  So, you know, I mean, that's got to what's happening.
• 19:53
  But again, you know, if this is something where you feel like
• 19:58
  you are in some kind of a marriage, I don't know how you
• 20:00
  would be listening to me this long if you were, and still be a
• 20:02
  fan. But if you feel that you're in a
• 20:03
  marriage, where you, Never say no to your husband for sex.
• 20:06
  You're having all kinds of like makeup brush hand jobs that are
• 20:09
  against your will. Then this could be helpful to
• 20:11
  you, to make you realize that you are a person to with needs.
• 20:15
  But if you're in the more normal situation that I see that, I
• 20:18
  talked about where the woman says, no fairly constantly
• 20:22
  whenever she wants to say no, then I think you're still in the
• 20:26
  other category of people that need to be more generous, you
• 20:30
  know, and think about. Hmm.
• 20:31
  Maybe this would be nice for my partner.
• 20:33
  Maybe I Should get outside my comfort zone as the woman
• 20:36
  because that is that that? That is generally what I see.
• 20:40
  So, yeah, I mean there was some there's there's definitely some
• 20:45
  utility and thinking about this looking at things from other
• 20:48
  perspectives, thinking about how things are different for
• 20:51
  different populations. If you though are a guy who
• 20:55
  feels like he has not gotten a fair Shake because your wife is
• 20:59
  listening to the more of these kinds of things, then it's worth
• 21:02
  it to bring up, you know. You know, the reality.
• 21:05
  Would you perceive the reality of the situation is, which is
• 21:08
  that you are not having anywhere near the sex life you want?
• 21:12
  You do not feel any power in the bedroom at all.
• 21:15
  You try to give her an orgasm in every encounter and you feel
• 21:18
  very, very lonely. Once you reject, you frequently,
• 21:24
  you know, and that is much more of the common situation that I
• 21:27
  see. Alright, so I hope that this was
• 21:29
  useful and interesting for any of you and I'll talk to you all
• 21:32
  soon.