Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / The New Elephant in the Room: Personality Disorders
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:04): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:22): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:24): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. We focus on training, consulting, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In this episode, we're discussing personality disorders, specifically how to understand what they are and, and how to explain them to the average person. But first, a couple of notes. If you have a question about a high conflict situation, please send it to us at podcast high conflict institute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast. Or you'll also find all the show notes and links. Speaker 1 (01:04): So let's talk bill about personality disorders. A, a topic that can be very mystifying to those unfamiliar with them and even to some in the mental health profession itself. Although with copious amounts of information online about personality disorders these days, it seems that everyone's an expert , right? And the terminology is, is bandied about with what it, you know, people believe is, is authority on the topic. But, you know, it is sticky and fascinating information. Unexplainable behaviors can quickly be explained away as narcissistic personality disorder or some other personality disorder type. And once that thought happens, it's very easy to develop confirmation, which is a topic we talked about in the last episode. But this can also be dangerous information and information that must be treated with respect and caution. So, bill, let's talk about personality disorders specifically. Let's start with whether personality disorders are a type of mental illness or not. Speaker 2 (02:12): So this is confusing to people as terms of mental health professionals. Personality disorders are a chapter in the diagnostic manual of mental disorders. So for mental health professionals, personality disorders are a type of mental illness, meaning that it affects people's thinking, it affects their behavior, it affects their mood. Um, but what's different is that their interpersonal disorders. So when you think of depression or anxiety, uh, or schizophrenia or even uh, uh, substance use disorder, you think of the person as having problems kind of separate from their environment. With personality disorders, it's very much an interpersonal type of disorder. So it shows up in a close relationship, um, or during a crisis or dealing with authority figures. People start having all or nothing thinking, um, unmanaged emotion, maybe screaming and yelling, and you thought you were having a normal conversation. But that's part of what's confusing is because in many ways they are normal and they seem normal. Speaker 2 (03:31): But in a close relationship like a marriage or dating, they may start attacking you. They may just start having strange behaviors towards you. That's, that's the big difference compared to say, mental illness like schizophrenia, where a person out of touch with reality has delusions, hallucinations with personality disorder, people are in touch with reality, but they put a spin on it, like all or nothing thinking, like jumping to conclusions, like blaming other people for their own behavior. So that's what's different about them. Now, how common are they? Well, research shows about 10% of the adult population, and usually personality disorders aren't, uh, diagnosable tell people are adults because, you know, kids are changing. They try out extreme behaviors, but they're not stuck once they're an adult. If they're stuck with a normal human behavior, but they keep applying the same narrow range to every situation, then that might be a personality disorder. So 10%, that's what the diagnostic manual says. A big study 20 years ago said in the US it's about 15%, so think 10 to 15%, you know, alcoholism is about 7% of the adult population. So this is a bigger problem in issue than alcoholism, and yet very little discussed, little understood, and I really think we need to talk about it more, which is why we're talking about it more on this show. Speaker 1 (05:16): Yeah, as we've said before, it's the elephant in the room and, uh, a lot of people don't want to talk about it, uh, in the profession, you know, mental health profession, some, um, and other professions, it's, it's shut down very quickly. But, uh, you know, the, the 10% figure is curious to me, uh, a bit. I, you know, my gut kind of tells me it's, it's bigger than that. . Do you think it's, it's a, a bigger portion or maybe those that are, are, uh, who just have the traits of a personality instead of the full, uh, meeting the full criteria? Speaker 2 (05:48): That's a tough one, because partly from our experience and especially from the legal field, I think that, you know, high conflict court cases are probably twice as many, like 20% have personality disorders and judges I talked to, you know, I've, I've said to them, I bet 50% of your hearings are more about personality than issues. And one judge said, bill, you're wrong. And I figured, oh, I way overestimated. She said, no, it's about 70%. Um, this is family court hearings, fighting over the children money, et cetera. It's hard to pin down. And the 10% figure in the diagnostic manual came from basically averaging studies from several different countries. And they said the median was about 10%, so that means half were higher and half were lower. But the big US study done with over 40,000 people, uh, 20 years ago, said 15%. I think that's probably more realistic, but I'm okay saying 10% because it, what really matters is who, who you're talking to now and how to deal with the person if they seem particularly difficult. And if they have a personality disorder, is understanding that they don't have as much control over their personality as the average person does. So arguing with them, blaming them just often makes things worse. So that's why it's helpful to understand kind of the nature of personality disorders as a stuck pattern of interpersonal behavior. Speaker 1 (07:36): You know, I, I tend to think of it as relationship disorders because that's rarely really where these, these pop up. Although in other mental illness, there can be relationship problems as well. But this one is, is very much focused on, in, in relationships. And, you know, over the past weekend, I was, um, I, I think you and I are probably a lot of liking in this. We, we spend a lot of time thinking a, about personality disorders, high conflict personalities, and trying to always find better ways to explain this to the average person. And what popped in my mind over the weekend was, uh, let's say a person with a a personality disorder is trying to find a solution. We're all trying to find solutions to problems. And, um, if we think of a person with a personality disorder as just they're trying to find a solution, but in a very different way from you or I, right? They're, they're governed by just sort of a different set of, of rules to find that solution where they feel okay, where they feel normal. Is that a fair way to think about it? Yeah, Speaker 2 (08:37): I think, I think that's very true. And maybe one good example is, uh, narcissistic personalities, which are get bandied about a lot today, as you said. But in many ways, they don't feel okay unless they're seen as superior to the people around them. So their behavior to feel okay is to put people down, which makes other people feel not okay. And so they often put down the narcissistic person, you're being arrogant or rude or, or ridiculous, which makes the narcissistic person feel defensive and try harder to see, be seen as superior. And there's kind of a dance almost, uh, with narcissistic people of trying to set limits on their acting superior, but without triggering them to act, try more hard to act superior . Speaker 1 (09:37): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a vicious cycle. I, I, I think about someone I was interacting with in the LA the last few weeks. Um, I went to, uh, this person for an appointment and, um, she was in tears when I arrived and I said, oh, what's wrong, ? I was sure it was a boyfriend issue, and sure enough, and the first thing she said was, oh, he's such a narcissist. And I told him that last night, . So how'd that, how'd that go for you? Not well, not well. Um, and, you know, and, but she just can't seem to, to pull herself away. But then, um, you know, a couple of other, um, individuals I, I had had, uh, interactions with in the last few months and the, you know, talking about their romantic relationships when they, the relationship ended, and this is to kind of, to give an example, a further example of what you're saying about they have to put someone down, in particular, the narcissistic personality is if, if they feel put down by someone else, if someone leaves them, then their reaction is to put that person down, you know, well, you're poor, you're gonna, you're ugly, you're disgusting, you know, you're never gonna be anything. Speaker 1 (10:49): And that's, that's just what they do. Yeah. No one else does that kind of thing. So anyway, just sort of some real life examples that I see playing out over and over. Speaker 2 (10:59): Well, let's make a a big point here. The thing you mentioned, uh, the woman told him that he was a narcissist. We really recommend against that. Don't tell parents, children, boyfriends, girlfriends, coworkers, bosses, anybody that you think they have a personality disorder. Cuz in today's society, people know that's a negative thing and they're gonna be defensive anyway. But if it's true, they're gonna be really defensive and they're gonna, you know, wanna pound a flesh from you for having said that. So that's one of the most important lessons. Let's talk about this in general terms, but don't label an individual, you know, or it'll backfire. Speaker 1 (11:43): Yeah. And be very hurtful, as we saw with that young lady. So, you know, we've talked a little bit about how they appear in every day life. Um, how would I know, know if someone has a personality disorder bill? Speaker 2 (11:56): It's basically a narrow range of behavior that's stuck. And so they keep repeating the narrow range of behavior in many different settings. So we are talking about narcissist. So if they have narcissistic personality disorder, it means that it doesn't work, that it's dysfunctional. And if they try to show that they're superior to everybody around them at work, at home, in the community, and it doesn't work, people don't like them, people unfriend them, all of that, they keep doing the same thing. They don't learn, they get angry with feedback. And so the, the thing to know is a personality disorder is someone who's stuck in a pattern of dysfunctional behavior. Now, for some people, let's say someone who has avoidant personality disorder, they don't bother other people. They bother themselves. They may isolate themselves or say, if they're a business manager, they may avoid making hard decisions and they may avoid dealing with people who are acting badly. Speaker 2 (13:12): And so you may have a division where a lot of people are acting badly and the manager goes into their office and hides because they have an avoidant approach. And every time there's a problem, their approach is to avoid the problem. So that would be an avoidant personality disorder. Now, antisocial personality disorder, probably 40% end up in the criminal justice system. And they have a pattern of often criminal behavior, and they repeat and they go to jail, they get outta jail, they repeat, and they're back in jail again. So you see, it's, it's a stuck pattern of behavior that's dysfunctional interpersonally. So that's kind of a, a long definition Speaker 1 (13:58): . Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, so speaking of criminal behavior, you know, we're, we're right in the midst of the big case here in the United States with, um, a murder murders of four, uh, lovely young people in Idaho at their university in November, 2022. And just in the past week, the, um, alleged killer was, was apprehended. And in fact, today is being extradited, um, from Pennsylvania to Idaho to face the charges. So I, I've read a bit about, about this, this person. Um, have you, I don't know if you have yet, bill, if so, do you have any thoughts about that in relation to, uh, perhaps antisocial personality? Speaker 2 (14:41): First, let me say, I recommend that if you start thinking about personality this way, you say you have a private working theory, , like I said, you don't tell other people, uh, about a specific person. So what I'm gonna say is questions you might ask yourself about this person who's accused, who's, I guess been indicted, which means they have a fair amount of evidence that he may be the killer of those four people. So, questions to ask yourself are, does this person show signs of having remorse having a conscience? Because people with antisocial personality don't seem to have that. Does this person have a pattern of antisocial behavior, like breaking the law, like stealing, breaking other people's property, lying to people, a lot of lying. Does a person have a lot of lying? Does a person have a lot of, uh, antisocial planning? And so, you know, we know there's crimes of passion where somebody's upset and they, they kill somebody because they're upset in the moment. Speaker 2 (15:57): And then they're like, oops, sorry about that. That's usually not an antisocial personality. The antisocial personality might be more likely to plan something to scope out if I wanna kill somebody. And, and, and there are people that grow up wanting to kill somebody, wanting to know what's it like that's anti-social behavior. So if they're plotting saying, okay, I wanna kill somebody, I wanna kill some college students, I wonder where, where I could get away with it. How would I do it? What time of day would I do at all of that? Keep in mind what's been in the news about this person is that he's studying criminals, I think murderers. Mm-hmm. and wondering and surveying. What, what were your thoughts? Did you, you know, how did you do it this way or that way? Which Speaker 1 (16:50): And your emotions. Speaker 2 (16:51): And your emotions, yes. Mm-hmm. . And it, it raises the question of, is this person like a hardcore anti-social personality? And someone said, I think a high school friend, we were best friends. And then over one summer this guy changed this personality. Well, that's the way some of this personality stuff happens, is you see people start becoming a different person. As, as a young adult, between about 15 and 30 is where you start seeing anti-social behavior get started. And that may be why a lot of our young killers are 18, 19, 20 years old, cuz they haven't done anything to get caught yet. So their first crime could be a murder. Speaker 1 (17:45): It's big like a school shooting Speaker 2 (17:47): . Yeah. It also may be their last crime. And it's too bad we can't predict who's gonna do something like that before they do it. But a lot of people don't even act like that until they start their personality kinda ripens into adulthood. And you see, so these are all questions I would, I would ask. Mm. So I, I wouldn't, great, I wouldn't conclude. I wouldn't make a conclusion, but I would ask these questions. Speaker 1 (18:15): That's a great way to put it. Bill and I, I I always have to remember that , just ask yourself questions, . Yeah. Just have to know kind of which questions to ask. So, you know, we talk a lot about high conflict personalities, high conflict people, uh, that's what we do at High Conflict Institute. But, uh, you know, the question we often get is, you know, are all people with personality disorders, high conflict people? Speaker 2 (18:40): So the answer is no. So personality disorder is someone who's stuck in a narrow pattern of behavior. A high conflict person, someone with a high conflict personality is stuck in a pattern of behavior of blame. And with that comes all or nothing thinking extreme behaviors cuz they're preoccupied with blaming others. So if you think of personality disorders as stuck patterns of behavior, high conflict people as blaming patterns of behavior. Some people with personality disorders are high conflict, people have high conflict pattern of behavior and some don't. So there's 10, uh, personality disorders that mental health professionals identify in the diagnostic manual. Only five of them seem prone to being high conflict. That's the cluster B, which is antisocial, narcissistic borderline and histrionic. And if you want more on each of those, listen to our earlier podcasts, but also paranoid personality, which is a cluster, a personality disorder. Because many of them think somebody else is interfering with their life, like blocking their career or out to get them. And they're not. But that's the thing about personality disorders, is distorted perceptions of other people in relationships. So basically think personality disorders, maybe half have high conflict personality behavior and high conflict people, maybe half of them have personality disorders and the other half are a little more flexible, maybe not as stuck, but still blamers. So blame is high conflict stuck is personality disorders. Speaker 1 (20:35): I love that. That's such a simple way to explain it to the average person, , including this one . What's kind of fascinating I think to, to most people is that we hear the word person, uh, term terminology, personality disorder, and think that it's some really, you know, dark, um, really toxic, um, person that you're just gonna recognize right away, oh, this person's very different and they're, you know, ooh, I have to avoid them. But really these are just ordinary individuals in an everyday life that we work with. We marry, we, you know, they're our friends, they're our neighbors, and it's it, you know, they don't come with a sign. I always like to say that there's no neon sign hanging around their neck saying, and I'm gonna be really, really blaming. That's why we have to be careful when we meet new people is to, you know, when you listen for, for things like blame, are they blaming other people a lot? Because they might often come with charm as well, or, and just regular, ordinary, everyday people, right? Speaker 2 (21:35): Yes, yes. And I'm glad you mentioned charm because all of the high conflict people tend to have charming potential. And that's why in dating we tell people, wait a year before you make a major commitment, like getting married, buying a house, or having a child, because you may be just not seeing the whole person that over the course of 12 months, you usually do see the whole person. But over three months or even six months, sometimes you don't know. This may be someone who hits you. This may be someone who's gonna blame you a lot, but at first they're charming and friendly. But within a year you're gonna see this. And that's, that makes it very hard. Cuz as you said, Megan, they're very ordinary in most ways. Um, but when you get close is when you eventually start seeing this cuz this is basically about close relationship behavior. Speaker 1 (22:34): Yeah. And, and the, uh, you know, what later is understood as control may initially start as, as that charm or may start as seeming protective and a hero and taking care and being a leader when in fact, um, you know, like someone with a, a narcissistic personality, the, the high conflict personality right, is with narcissistic, you know, can come across very differently. . Yeah. It, it, it, the, it it's like a, when you finally get under the surface, Hmm. It was all there all the time. It was just seen very differently in the beginning. Speaker 2 (23:06): And that's a real good point cuz people will say he's had a sudden personality change and it's usually not a sudden personality change. It's usually seeing the full personality that was always there. Speaker 1 (23:20): Mm-hmm. . It is. And the next question people have is, is well the, they know they're being this way, you know, so I'm gonna tell them that they are. And we've discussed that a little bit, but it, it, it's, it's often very, uh, very tempting to think that that, you know, folks with a high conflict personality really understand that they have one and honestly they don't. Speaker 2 (23:41): That's right. Self-awareness, lack of self-awareness is one of the big, the big ways you can tell if somebody says, gee, I'll have to think about that, or maybe I shouldn't have done that, or I should have done something different a long time ago in the relationship. That's good. That's self-awareness. High conflict people and people with personality disorders don't have self-awareness. They really don't look at themselves and that's why they're stuck because they don't change the part that they can change and the only part they can change is their part. You can't change another person, but you can change how you interact with people. 80 or 90% of people say, oops, what did I do wrong there? What can I do different in the future? That's a big thing that personality disordered people don't do and that's why they're stuck. So it's helpful to understand that. Speaker 1 (24:38): Yeah. Right. And they turn most of those things around on you. Um, when they're being manipulative, they say, you are , it's all Speaker 2 (24:46): Your fault. We should name a podcast after that. Oh, Speaker 1 (24:50): We should . Good idea, bill. Okay, last question here, and this is really an important one for our listeners, is if I want to explain to a friend or a family member what a personality disorder is, what should I say? Speaker 2 (25:04): Well, here's kind of a, about six or eight points in a nutshell. First is say there's somebody who's stuck in a na narrow pattern of behavior that doesn't work, that backfires for them. They don't connect the dots to their own behavior. They don't connect it back to themselves, as we were just saying. They don't self-reflect. They lack self-awareness. Therefore they don't change. Now you can't point this out to them because you'll trigger incredible defensiveness and blame. They'll blame you and say, no, bill, it's you, it's all your fault that I sabotage such and such. You know, it's all your fault. So they'll be very, tend to be blaming, but not all of them do that. About half of people with personality disorders do that and the other half just kind of make their own lives difficult. So we need to have compassion for them, which is another point I wanna make sure to say. Speaker 2 (26:11): Now, if they do, if they're the half that has targets of blame, it's all your fault. You, you need to realize not that it's, there's no point in arguing with them about that, that you really want to focus on the future, focus on what to do now and maybe even give them a statement that shows empathy, attention and respect. You may need to set limits on them and say, I'm sorry, I can't do that, but here's what I can do and I care about you a lot and I'm gonna need to go now. So, you know, you take care. So the way you talk to them is important, but more than anything, just understanding they're stuck, about half of them are blamers. And that the goal really is either manage the relationship with them and you can, there's many, many people that actually can be delightful. Friends, coworkers who have personality disorders and a range of activities that aren't too close. You can probably get along fine. Maybe you have a friend you like to go to the movies with. You can do that and that may be fun. And yet you don't wanna like spend every waking hour with them because then they start Speaker 1 (27:32): Or go on vacation Speaker 2 (27:33): Or go on vacation, then they'll feel abandoned , yes. Speaker 1 (27:36): Or go on vacation with them. , you feel like you want to abandon . Speaker 2 (27:41): That's also an issue. In fact, sometimes that's when people realize that this is, this is too intense. So the thing is, you know, having balanced relationships, getting close to people slowly. And if it's too intense and you realize there's a problem here, is backing off to where it feels more comfortable. Or if you feel you need to disengage in general, disengage slowly, because if you disengage rapidly, you may be triggering intense emotions that will make them back into your life even more. Um, and sometimes in dangerous ways, you know, antisocial personality is one that can be quite dangerous and may wanna punish you, uh, for splitting up with them, things like that. So overall, it's people who are stuck a wide range of behavior. You can manage the relationship in many situations, but also you may choose to not get into some relationships or to get out because the pattern is too extreme. So have compassion and have your eyes open. Speaker 1 (28:53): That's great, bill. So thank you for all that. I, I hope this is really helpful to you, our listeners. Um, it's, it's interesting, very fascinating information and I hope it's been demystified a bit for you today. Just remember, try not to label, don't tell someone you think they're high conflict or, uh, or that they have a personality disorder or they are a narcissist. It, it just doesn't help anything and it's, and if they really do have the disorder or have a high conflict personality, it's just going to backfire on you and, and be hurtful, um, to you probably. So be respectful, explore many options and just, you know, in general exercise caution. We thank you for listening today. Speaker 1 (29:44): Next week we'll talk about getting it backwards in family court. Why sometimes persuasive blames win and their victims lose. Now, um, even if you don't have a family court case, you have never been divorced, this information can still be fascinating and applicable a across, um, the board in other areas as well. In the meantime, send your questions to podcast high conflict institute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. Tell your friends about us pretty please, and we'd be very grateful if you'd leave a review wherever you listen to us. Until next time, keep learning and practicing these skills and kindness to yourself while we all try to find the missing piece. It's all your fault. It's a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and zip Moran. Find the show, show, show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm, high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app Laos ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.