Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Is Your Inner Critic Keeping You Stuck? The Power of Self-Compassion | E17

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Is Your Inner Critic Keeping You Stuck? The Power of Self-Compassion | E17 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

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  Speaker 1: People aren't random. They're incredibly predictable. This is a show
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  Speaker 1: about the science of human behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and
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  Speaker 1: the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us
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  Speaker 1: don't even realize exist. Because once you see the pattern,
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  Speaker 1: you can finally change it. I'm Dr. Sarah Hensley.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm Raina Butcher.
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  Speaker 1: You think your life is random. It's not.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Dr. Sarah Hensley Show. Hey, friend.
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  Speaker 3: Hey, hey.
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  Speaker 2: I feel lonely here without you.
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  Speaker 1: I know. I feel like I've been gone a really
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  Speaker 1: long time.
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  Speaker 3: Well, you've only been gone like three days. But that
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  Speaker 3: is a long time in our world. Three days is
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  Speaker 3: a very long time.
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  Speaker 1: It is a really long time. I miss my kids.
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  Speaker 1: I miss my team. Luckily, my husband just got here.
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  Speaker 1: I am in beautiful Los Angeles doing some podcasting. appearances.
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  Speaker 1: I was just in Phoenix and now I'm here. So
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  Speaker 1: lovely weather though.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I guarantee it. Although we're having lovely weather in
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  Speaker 3: Kentucky too. If you want to talk about peak time
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  Speaker 3: in Kentucky, now is it.
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  Speaker 2: It is showing off. Oh my gosh. It's like constant
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  Speaker 2: golden hour. It's beautiful. But it only lasts.
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  Speaker 3: Like, I hate that it just lasts like a very
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  Speaker 3: short period of time. And then after, what comes after
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  Speaker 3: this period of time really, really sucks, which is gray.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And gloomy and sad. But we're going to eat it
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  Speaker 3: up while we can. And you should eat up the
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  Speaker 3: LA weather while you're there. And then we'll be back
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  Speaker 3: there next week.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, we will. I'll be in New York before then,
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  Speaker 1: in between. I know, girl.
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  Speaker 2: You got a lot. You got a lot, a lot.
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  Speaker 1: I got a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot,
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  Speaker 1: a lot of it. I'm very blessed.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, you are. And it's a topic. And so am I.
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  Speaker 3: And so I need to remember that in terms of
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  Speaker 3: what we're going to talk about today, which is self-compassion.
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  Speaker 2: And I know you've been digging into this.
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  Speaker 3: Research a lot lately, so I'm really interested to hear
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  Speaker 3: more about what you found out and really let our
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  Speaker 3: listeners know what you found out.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I got really intrigued by thinking about how
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  Speaker 1: I can continue to help clients beat their internalized shame.
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  Speaker 1: I've been studying internalized shame since my dissertation. My doctoral
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  Speaker 1: dissertation was on internalized shame. in a specific relationship situation.
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  Speaker 1: And knowing that internalized shame is such a destructive thing.
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  Speaker 1: All insecurely attached people have a self-concept that's at least
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  Speaker 1: partially built upon shame. And so self-concept, again, is the question,
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  Speaker 1: who am I? And insecurely attached people in the deepest
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  Speaker 1: part of themselves would say shameful to some degree, especially
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  Speaker 1: dismissive avoidance. And they're the ones that have sort of
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  Speaker 1: the least awareness around this. And so I was like, okay,
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  Speaker 1: what more can I do? Because I feel like the
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  Speaker 1: research on shadow work, I feel like shadow work is
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  Speaker 1: so blown up as being this antidote to shame and
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  Speaker 1: the evidence just isn't super strong behind it. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And I don't even know if everybody really understands what
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  Speaker 3: shadow work even really means.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. Well, let's go into it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Shadow work is essentially identifying the areas in which you
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  Speaker 1: carry shame sort of in your inner world. So what
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  Speaker 1: traits do you suppress? within yourself, because there's shame around
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  Speaker 1: those things. So for example, the dismissive avoidant suppresses their
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  Speaker 1: need for and their ability to be vulnerable. Because essentially
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  Speaker 1: in childhood, when you have this benign looking emotional neglect,
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  Speaker 1: that is really emotional dismissal, like stop crying, you're okay,
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  Speaker 1: you're fine, calm down, They're given those repeated messages that
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  Speaker 1: their emotions make them bad. And so internalized shame is
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  Speaker 1: this I am bad, deep, deep feeling. And it's a
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  Speaker 1: very hidden layer of our inner world because emotions are
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  Speaker 1: really layered kind of like onions. And I always feel
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  Speaker 1: like shame is kind of a core emotion where anger
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  Speaker 1: and fear will a lot of times sit on top
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  Speaker 1: of shame. So when someone is experiencing shame, they might
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  Speaker 1: get very angry or they might feel a And so
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  Speaker 1: it's one of those things that it's going to produce
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  Speaker 1: a lot of negative emotionality and a lot of negative
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  Speaker 1: inner self-talk. And even when you start to peel back
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  Speaker 1: the layers, it just gets worse. If you really hit shame,
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  Speaker 1: if you, and I think everybody knows to some degree
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  Speaker 1: what shame can feel like. Shame, in my opinion, is very,
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  Speaker 1: it's very heavy, feels very hot, feels very heavy. It
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  Speaker 1: feels very hollow inside of my body. Those are just
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  Speaker 1: my descriptions of shame. A lot of times there's tears.
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  Speaker 1: But when you just feel like, gosh, I'm such a POS.
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  Speaker 1: And I can remember the last time I felt it,
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  Speaker 1: which was when I went to dinner with Sweet Ashley.
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  Speaker 1: And my phone was sitting next to me, but it
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  Speaker 1: was kind of face down. And we were just talking, talking, talking, talking, talking.
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  Speaker 1: And it was like I had time blindness. Time just
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  Speaker 1: like flew by. And so normally where I would be
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  Speaker 1: kind of ending the dinner or at least checking in
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  Speaker 1: with my husband and saying, hey, you know, this is
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  Speaker 1: going longer than I expected. About two hours had gone by.
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  Speaker 1: I thought it was about an hour. So he had
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  Speaker 1: been blowing up my phone, but it was so loud
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  Speaker 1: in there. And we were like leaned in close trying
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  Speaker 1: to talk. I just didn't hear my phone. And he
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  Speaker 1: really got worried. He was really like, I thought maybe
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  Speaker 1: you dropped your phone in the parking lot and you
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  Speaker 1: were abducted because it's not like you at all to
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  Speaker 1: not return my calls. And I was about to drive
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  Speaker 1: to the restaurant to see if you were okay. And
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  Speaker 1: I just remember feeling just like, wow, I let my
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  Speaker 1: husband worry about me. And that's never what I want.
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  Speaker 1: I never want him to be scared or worried about
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  Speaker 1: my safety and just I felt really selfish. Like how
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  Speaker 1: could I have, you know, I'm not one to leave
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  Speaker 1: my family very much. I tried to be as involved
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  Speaker 1: as I can be. And so maybe there was this
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  Speaker 1: little bit of sort of inner critic about even going
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  Speaker 1: out with a friend, which there shouldn't be that. But
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  Speaker 1: someone as busy as me, I try to use all
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  Speaker 1: of my off time to be with my kids and
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  Speaker 1: to be with my family and to know that I
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  Speaker 1: had kind of way gone over time without checking in.
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  Speaker 1: And I just remember like the inside of me feeling
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  Speaker 1: so heavy, and also hollow at the same time. So
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  Speaker 1: it was like my body was just this shell that
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  Speaker 1: was really heavy and inside was just really hollow. And
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  Speaker 1: I knew it was shame. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It makes you want to hide.
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  Speaker 1: It does make you want to hide. It's a shame
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  Speaker 1: that feels, it feels public. It feels like everybody knows
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  Speaker 1: you're bad. You're bad and everybody knows it.
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  Speaker 3: Yep. Yep.
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  Speaker 1: And it's very hard to escape. And it takes a
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  Speaker 1: ton of self-awareness, but also very good emotional processing to
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  Speaker 1: actually work through shame. And that is why I'm just
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  Speaker 1: not as big of a fan of shadow work as
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  Speaker 1: so many people are, because I think when you really
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  Speaker 1: look down at the quality of the evidence, it's not
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  Speaker 1: that great. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I do want to talk a little bit about what
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  Speaker 3: happens in the body. So for our physiological aspect or
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  Speaker 3: the physiological piece, Because we know that the brain sort
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  Speaker 3: of takes control and you can't really even sometimes recognize
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  Speaker 3: that narrative. But I know you talked about the feeling
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  Speaker 3: of hollowness and heaviness. But when shame is on repeat,
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  Speaker 3: what happens to the body and over time, like what
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  Speaker 3: type of ailments can it create?
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  Speaker 1: Well, shame is very strongly associated in the health psychology
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  Speaker 1: literature with inflammation. So it can turn on specific immune
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  Speaker 1: functions related to inflammation, and it can turn off specific
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  Speaker 1: immune functions related to clearing viruses, eating up bad bacteria, macrophages,
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  Speaker 1: or specifically NK, which are natural killer cells, are affected
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  Speaker 1: CD4 cells, which kind of help keep a lot of
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  Speaker 1: long-term viruses in our body sort of suppressed. like the
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  Speaker 1: herpes virus or Epstein-Barr virus, when we have a decrease
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  Speaker 1: in CD4 cells, that viral suppression is going to be affected.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And a lot of research is just showing that I mean,
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  Speaker 1: shame is just bad all over. There's no positive aspect
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  Speaker 1: of internalized shame. Like literally every other emotion we can feel,
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  Speaker 1: there is some positive benefit associated with it. Even guilt.
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  Speaker 1: Guilt says, I've done something wrong. And that can allow
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  Speaker 1: us to progress towards behavior change that could be particularly
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  Speaker 1: impactful in creating better outcomes in our lives. But shame
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  Speaker 1: doesn't do that. Shame does not create better outcomes. outcomes.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't come back.
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  Speaker 1: It's way worse.
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  Speaker 2: There's no upside.
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  Speaker 3: And I know you talked a little bit about how
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  Speaker 3: early experiences shape specifically the dismissive avoidant when it comes
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  Speaker 3: to shame. But let's talk about some of the other
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  Speaker 3: insecure attachments and how early experiences shape maybe the way.
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  Speaker 2: Let's talk about the fearful avoidant.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, fearful avoidance. Sorry.
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  Speaker 3: No, I was just going to say, what's their internal voice?
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  Speaker 3: I mean, we know, but we want our listeners to know.
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  Speaker 1: There's a lot of unworthiness associated with fearful avoidance because,
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  Speaker 1: and I wouldn't necessarily call it a wound. There's a
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  Speaker 1: lot of debate of what is a wound and what
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  Speaker 1: is not a wound. And so I wouldn't necessarily call
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  Speaker 1: unworthiness a wound. I don't think that that's scientifically accurate,
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  Speaker 1: but it's definitely a feeling that fearful avoidance can have
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  Speaker 1: because when you're a child and you have a dysfunctional parent,
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  Speaker 1: there's a big part of you, a big part of
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  Speaker 1: your internalized self that's like, why am I not worth
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  Speaker 1: it for this parent to change for? Why am I
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  Speaker 1: not worthy enough for you to get your life together
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  Speaker 1: and to raise me with love and compassion and attunement
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  Speaker 1: and all the things? And so, of course, fearful avoidance
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  Speaker 1: will grow up and they tend to pick really bad partners.
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  Speaker 1: They do. And if they pick a good partner, they
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  Speaker 1: will sabotage it. That is clear as day. Then they
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  Speaker 1: get to replay that narrative. Why won't you change for me?
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to pick the narcissistic alcoholic and then I'm
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  Speaker 1: going to look at him and be like, why don't
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  Speaker 1: you love me enough to change?
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  Speaker 2: And then reflect it back on themselves.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe when I was five years old, there was a
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  Speaker 1: part of me that thought that about my dad. Even
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  Speaker 1: though it was probably outside of my true conscious awareness.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then reflect it back on themselves and say,
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  Speaker 3: I'm not worthy enough. This is why I can't change them,
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  Speaker 3: which is, of course, embedded in the subconscious because we
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  Speaker 3: know we can't change people, right? We don't have that power.
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  Speaker 3: For the anxious preoccupied, what does their inner voice sound like?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not good enough. And again, I think there's...
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  Speaker 1: there's a debate whether this is truly a wound or not.
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  Speaker 1: I've gone down that rabbit hole quite a bit. But
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  Speaker 1: they have this, there's this motivation behind I am not
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  Speaker 1: good enough that kind of like I am unworthy doesn't
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  Speaker 1: really have because unworthiness is sort of like more stable
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  Speaker 1: in people's minds. Then when you say I'm not good enough,
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  Speaker 1: it gives this whole sort of plan that you can
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  Speaker 1: concoct to be better. And if you can just work
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  Speaker 1: hard enough and figure it out and have the right information,
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  Speaker 1: then you can be better. And I think we've really
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  Speaker 1: linked that to the behavior of the anxious, preoccupied person,
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  Speaker 1: that they are just the energizer bunny of connection, where
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  Speaker 1: it's like, just keep getting, you know, give me a chance,
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  Speaker 1: give me a chance, give me a chance, I'll get
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  Speaker 1: it right. And then they don't realize that they're abandoning
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  Speaker 1: themselves in that pursuit of And where fearful avoidance may
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  Speaker 1: have moments where they're like, well, this is hopeless. And
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  Speaker 1: so then I'm throwing up my hands and I'm moving
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  Speaker 1: away from my partner and I'm pulling away and I'm
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  Speaker 1: shutting down. And again, dismissive avoidance constantly feel that way.
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  Speaker 1: They feel defective, which is you're bad. You can't be fixed.
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  Speaker 1: Nothing you do is going to matter. If you try,
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  Speaker 1: it's just going to go poorly. So why bother trying?
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  Speaker 1: You are helpless. This is hopeless. So, you know, you
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  Speaker 1: can't fail if you don't try. You're safer just going
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  Speaker 1: off and shrinking and internalizing. So you can see how
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  Speaker 1: shame functions a little bit differently for the different attachment
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  Speaker 1: styles and produces different behaviors.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and different outcomes within their relationships, obviously.
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  Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about high-functioning individuals
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  Speaker 3: and if there's any research correlated to high-functioning individuals and
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  Speaker 3: the inner critic. Because I know Dana Dawsey, who has
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: been on our podcast before, who's wonderful, by the way,
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  Speaker 3: in season one, that seems like a long time ago,
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  Speaker 3: we should have her back on, talks a lot about
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  Speaker 3: high-functioning females specifically and this inner critic to be better,
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  Speaker 3: do better.
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  Speaker 2: And actually, the inner critic is.
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  Speaker 3: What motivates them to be so high-functioning and the dangers
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  Speaker 3: in that.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. So if we are being motivated by an inner
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  Speaker 1: critic that's producing some internalized shame, there's two main reactions
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  Speaker 1: to internalized shame. There's fight and then there's freeze. And
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  Speaker 1: what we know about functional freeze and that both the
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  Speaker 1: fight or flight sympathetic and dorsal vagal shutdown systems of
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  Speaker 1: the nervous system can be activated simultaneously, people can be
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  Speaker 1: in this functional free state where the shame is producing
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  Speaker 1: adrenaline and cortisol and that makes you productive. But in
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  Speaker 1: order to kind of cope psychologically, your brain has to
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  Speaker 1: be kind of checked out of that.
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  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 1: So your brain is very dissociated at the same time.
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  Speaker 1: And that's really not a great place to live. And
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  Speaker 1: I know that a lot of my dismissive avoidance live there.
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  Speaker 1: A lot of very high functioning people live there because
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  Speaker 1: their worth is placed on how much they can accomplish
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  Speaker 1: and what other people think about them. It is so
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  Speaker 1: true for the dismissive avoidance. They're so achievement focused a
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  Speaker 1: lot of the times. And it, you're being mobilized by stress.
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  Speaker 1: You're being mobilized. What's actually making your body move is stress.
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  Speaker 1: But there are so many downsides to that. Yes, you
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  Speaker 1: might be productive, but when you're productive from a place
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  Speaker 1: of internalized shame, you are inflamed. You are probably somewhat
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  Speaker 1: mildly depressed and or anxious, depending upon how much sympathetic
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  Speaker 1: activity there is and how much dorsal vagal activity there is.
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  Speaker 1: High freeze response is depression. High fight or flight is
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  Speaker 1: more anxiety. So you're not actually going to be happy
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  Speaker 1: with accomplishing more.
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  Speaker 2: No.
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  Speaker 1: Because what's motivating you is crushing on the inside.
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  Speaker 3: Right. And then outside of that productivity time, what is there, right?
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  Speaker 3: And that's where I think a lot of people find
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  Speaker 3: sort of the aha moment where it's like, Well, when
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  Speaker 3: I'm not productive, I either feel really uncomfortable, like this
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  Speaker 3: feels very foreign to me.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know what to do with my time.
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  Speaker 3: Or you're just stuck there scrolling on your phone or
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  Speaker 3: watching TV because you have no capacity to do anything else, right?
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  Speaker 2: Even experience joy. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And that's where I think self-compassion is such an important
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  Speaker 1: variable that has been, I don't want to say understudied,
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  Speaker 1: but I just don't think we sort of hit hit
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  Speaker 1: the goldmine with it as we have in the last
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  Speaker 1: five years. A lot of research that came out on
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: self-compassion is from 2021, where we had a big meta-analysis
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  Speaker 1: come out. We had some other studies come out where
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  Speaker 1: we found that self-compassion physically changes the body, even in
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  Speaker 1: a positive way, sort of even in a stronger way
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  Speaker 1: than shame hurts the body. So self-compassion is not only
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  Speaker 1: an antidote to internalized shame, it can reverse the physical
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  Speaker 1: effects and the psychological effects of internalized shame. And that
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  Speaker 1: we can be motivated and mobilized and actually self-compassion, people
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  Speaker 1: who are high in self-compassion and practice self-compassion, they're more
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  Speaker 1: persistent on tasks. They're more accomplished. So when we look
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  Speaker 1: at discipline, a lot of people think, well, discipline means
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  Speaker 1: I have to be super accountable. And if I don't
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  Speaker 1: meet my goal or if I don't, you know, get
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  Speaker 1: my workout in today or whatever, then I have to,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I have to hold myself really accountable. Accountability
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  Speaker 1: with self-compassion is huge because think about making a mistake
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  Speaker 1: and how, how much, if you, like, if you're in
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  Speaker 1: a relationship and you make a mistake and you hurt
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  Speaker 1: your partner, internalized shame will always produce a defensive response first.
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  Speaker 1: Shed the shame. That's the quickest way to get out
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  Speaker 1: of it. Blame shift it, throw it onto the partner. defend, minimize,
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  Speaker 1: do something to get out of the shame. It is
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  Speaker 1: so internally painful. We will literally throw it onto our
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  Speaker 1: partner before we would sit in it. And then when
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  Speaker 1: that doesn't work, if our partner is sort of saying, no,
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  Speaker 1: you did hurt me. I'm not buying that. I'm not
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  Speaker 1: taking the blame here. Then it's a run and hide situation.
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  Speaker 1: And that's the exact response of a dismissive avoidant when
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  Speaker 1: they're in confronted with a need or a criticism. And
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  Speaker 1: that's because the defectiveness wound is so close to the
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  Speaker 1: surface and there's such a bad pervasive shame wound. But
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  Speaker 1: what we've found in the research is when people can
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  Speaker 1: have compassion towards themselves, well, you know, I made a
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  Speaker 1: mistake and I'm human and humans make mistakes. And that
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  Speaker 1: doesn't mean I'm a bad person. And it doesn't mean
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  Speaker 1: that I'm a POS. It doesn't mean that I'm not
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  Speaker 1: capable of then our nervous system actually comes online and
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  Speaker 1: we become mobilized in a healthy way. We become driven
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  Speaker 1: in a healthy way without the stress hormones driving the ship,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: which is so much healthier mentally, physically, and socially because
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: it allows us to take accountability. When we can go, yeah,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: I hurt you and I'm not a bad person, then
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: I can lean into, I'm sorry that I hurt you.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: Well, and I think too, it allows us to be
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: able to set boundaries easier because we do have more discipline.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: You know, when you show yourself more self-compassion, you're able
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: to say no a lot easier. Right.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: And so if you're experiencing self-compassion, that means you're accessing
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: your empathy. That means you're not in a threat state
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: to have no access to empathy. You're literally shining the
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: empathy on yourself first so that you can then give
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: it to someone else. And I think that that is
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: a lot easier psychologically to do than to... somehow, you know,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: maintain the state of shame and then be able to empathize.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: There's no evolutionary benefit to being able to access your
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: empathy under threat. So you neutralize the threat within yourself first.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: I'm human. It's okay. I made a mistake. I'm still
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: a good person. You know, good people make mistakes. It's okay.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: And then be able to have that empathy right there
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: to be able to give it to your partner.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by the Dr. Sarah
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Hensley Relationship Coaching Services. If you're looking to achieve your
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: attachment security and make dramatic transformations in your romantic relationship,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: I would love to help you. In my practice, we
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: have a self-paced option where you can work at your
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: own pace and achieve attachment security through very prescriptive and
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: logical tools that help you regulate your nervous system, understand
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: your mindset, and view your partner from an objective lens,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: as well as learn the secure behavior it takes to
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: to create a lasting and loving relationship. You can also
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: add on my hybrid group, which is a set of
• 20:14
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• 20:16
  Speaker 1: the group and you can ask questions about what you're
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: learning in the self-paced part of the program. You literally
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: get to pick my brain. And this is a great
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: program for more avoidant attachment styles who really tend to
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: get triggered in therapeutic settings. They can be a fly
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: on the wall, stay regulated, learn, and actually transform. So
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: please send us a message or you can always text
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: our business line at 502-427-6945 and myself or one of
• 20:46
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• 20:49
  Speaker 1: for you. Or you can visit my website at drsarahensley.com.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: That's D-O-C-T-O-R sarahensley.com.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: I want to go back to something you said about
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: the research where, you know, you were talking about the
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: study that happened in 2021. And you mentioned that, you know,
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: they've kind of missed the mark. Where do you think
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: they've missed the mark? And where do you think it
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: can go in the future?
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: I think we've missed the mark in thinking that discipline
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: comes from really tough love. And it really doesn't. If
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: you watch, you know, I'm a huge fan of the
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: people that are the best at what they do. Look
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: at the people that are the best at what they do.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Give me a good documentary on someone who has been
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: the best in their space, and I will watch it.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Michael Jordan, Taylor Swift, Nick Saban. Just got done watching
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: the Nick Saban documentary.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: Josh and I started it last night.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: His career did not take off until he hired a
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: sports psychologist that taught him how to have compassion for
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: his players.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he basically said, stop calling your players dumbasses.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Yeah, because they actually thought that. He's like,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: what are they internalizing?
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: They internalize.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: They're internalizing, and I'm a dumbass. I can't actually do this.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: I'm so stupid for not being able to run this
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: play correctly. He said, you've got to stop all that.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: You've got to build them up. Hold them accountable. If
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: they're not, you know, be like, no, this isn't the
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: outcome we're looking for. And here's where I think you
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: can improve. That's a whole different ballgame.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Gosh, you're so stupid. Gosh, you're a dumbass. Gosh, you're
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: an idiot. You know, gosh, you're lazy. You should be
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: doing more right now. You should be doing better right now. Shame, shame, shame, shame, shame.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Nervous system. Screwed.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Fresh out.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Fresh out.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: And think about those statements that you just made.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: I feel like there's probably so many people listening right
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: now that that's their inner voice.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: I know it's mine. I know. Guys, I'll be the
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: first to admit, when I first did my healing, I
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: felt like I had it nailed. I felt like there
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: would never be another inner critic to sweep in and
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: try to steal my happiness and my joy. And spiritually
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: for me, it's the voice of the devil. It really is.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Shame is the voice of the devil. Fear is the
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: voice of the devil. Bitterness and unforgiveness and self-pity and
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: victimization and accusation and unlovingness. Those are all offense. Those
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: are all the voices of the enemy. And I think
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: there's a reason why God says there's life and death
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: in the power of the tongue. And as a man thinks,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: so is he. I think it is God's law that
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: that what we think and what we speak really demands
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: to be fulfilled. And that's why I think God puts
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: so much emphasis in the Bible on what we speak out,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: not just what we think, but what we speak, you know,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: out of the heart, the mouth speaks. And it's so true.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: And I have fallen off the wagon and really watching
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: my tongue in terms of speaking life over things instead
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: of speaking fear or overwhelm or frustration. I'll blame it
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: on entrepreneurship, but really it's the devil. Yeah.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: And if you struggle to remember to change your thoughts,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: try to focus on your words. And of course, metacognition
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: and being able to monitor your mind is a huge
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: tool that I teach. And it's important for everybody. But
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: we have to be just as cognizant of what we speak. Yeah.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: And I think- Well, it's what we think.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: You and I have had sort of these epiphanal moments.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: We always have them, guys. I mean, we've had a
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: bazillion- throughout this journey, but you know, we were talking
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: and I think so many women are guilty of this
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: and it does, it just adds fuel to a fire
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: where you bitch bond and you bond over bitching.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: And it's bonding is bad.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: We've been guilty of that and we've, we've recognized it
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: and we want to say no more, you know, because we,
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: we kind of, trauma dump our issues, because our places
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: in this business look so different from day to day,
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: but it's equally, I think, as stressful or heavy in
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: terms of the load we have to carry. And if
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: we just shift our perspective just slightly, what a difference
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: it makes. It can literally change everything. And I think
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: this applies not just to business, of course, in our circumstance.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: But it greatly does.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: You know, applies to your relationships, massively applies to your relationships.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: It massively, you know, applies to your relationships because like
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: I said before, shame will always fight to freeze. Fight it.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: If you can't fight it, you got to run from it.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: That's your only other solution.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: You have to learn to be able to face it.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: And then feel through it. That's why I don't think,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, the evidence is very, very weak for shadow work.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: And so I had a little bit of shadow work
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: in the program and I've really backed away from it
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: as more evidence has come out that it just doesn't
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: work as well as we thought maybe it did. Earlier
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: studies were a little bit more promising as we've tested
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: things and interventions. The evidence just looks weaker. And that's
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: the thing about science is you have to follow it
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: and you have to be willing to say, oh, well,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: it looked promising. But once we did more research, those
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: were error effects. Those were not true effects. And that's
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: why I've kind of moved away from it in my programs.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: And this new sort of version of the program that's
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: going to be coming out, there is a self-compassion exercise.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: And there is a lot of practice around self-compassion because
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: of its evidence in fighting shame, which is the biggest
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: hurdle we have to overcome.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: And crazy enough, that's the very thing Christ died for
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: was our shame.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: Yep. I wanted to ask you this imperative question because
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: I know that it probably comes up a lot in
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: terms of trying to decipher the difference. But like, what's
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: the difference between self-compassion and just making excuses?
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't think self-compassion comes without accountability. I
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: think self-compassion says, I made a mistake and I'm still
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: a good person. I think excuses are, I didn't really
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: make a mistake. Here's all the reasons it couldn't have
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: turned out differently that have nothing to do with me.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: And blame shifting. I didn't catch the ball because the
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: sun was in my eyes, right? Right.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Well, it's okay that I didn't catch the ball. And
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: where can I take personal responsibility for maybe catching it
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: in the future? What can I work on?
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I don't think those two things are opposing.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: I think excuses are a way for people to mitigate
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: shame without... really taking accountability.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: For sure. For sure.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: And in relationships, I see it so much with, well,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: I'm only going to change if my partner changes. Why
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: do I have to be the one to change first?
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: They should have to change. I don't think I should
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: have to change until they change.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: What's your answer for them?
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: My answer is, well, good luck with that. Your relationship
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: is probably not going to survive because that's an extremely
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: selfish standpoint where, you know, how about You look at
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: what you can change and hold yourself accountable and have
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: compassion for yourself and for your partner at the same time.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: And don't worry about what they're doing. If they're behaving badly,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: that's when you come in with your boundaries. That's where
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: you come in with, you know, your rules of reengagement.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Don't let your anger try to protect you. Let your
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: boundaries protect you. Anger and resentment is really a form
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: of self-hatred that you've stayed and you've tolerated bad behavior.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: that's the opposite of self-compassion, right? A compassionate self says, yes,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: maybe I did stay too long, but it doesn't make
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: me a bad person. It makes me a kind person.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: It makes me a person who believed in a dream.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: It makes me a person who wants to see the
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: best in people. And at the same time, I can
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: realize that XYZ thing isn't healthy for me anymore and
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: I need to have boundaries around it or I need
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: to be moving away from that. Those two things can coexist.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: And shame, I know, also keeps you in the state
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: of victimhood. And you've said it once, you'll say it again.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: Victimhood is the super glue to hell.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: You want to feel hellacious. You want to absolutely hate
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: your life. You want to give up. Be a victim
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: because nobody's coming to save you. Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. You
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: have to save yourself. And yeah, being a victim, where
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: does that get you? Does that motivate you? No, it
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: actually creates helplessness and hopelessness, which create freezes.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it keeps you stuck.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: It keeps you stuck.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: So what are some, what do you think are some
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: just basic practices that somebody maybe who's listening could start
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: doing to start recognizing this inner critic?
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: We have to be able to learn to monitor your mind.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: You have to. whatever that looks like. I teach what
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: we call an EMA, Ecological Momentary Assessment Protocol, in my practice,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: which is essentially having something to remind you around the
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: clock to be monitoring your own mind. I think journaling
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: is a good thing. Whatever you feel, get it out
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: on paper and then close it and try to reopen it,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: you know, at a different time and look objectively at
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: it and say, you know, is this true? Are these
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: thoughts productive? Are these thoughts in line with my values
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: of who I believe that I am and who I
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: want to be? And a lot of times it's the
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: last one that you're violating. You're violating your own inner
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: value system. If you believe you're a kind person, but
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: you're calling yourself a POS or an idiot, your nervous
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: system knows that discrepancy. It's cognitive dissonance and it's going
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: to produce dysregulation in your nervous system. And I think
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: I really had a lot of progress in healing when
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I started talking to myself a lot more compassionately. And
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: I used to be someone who really struggled with perfectionism
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: and with making mistakes. And I think a lot of
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: high-functioning people out there feel a lot of shame when
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: they make a mistake. And mistakes do not make you evil.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: They do not make you stupid. They do not make
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: you lazy. They do not make you dumb.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: They make you better. They actually make you better.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: And people will respect the hell out of someone, even
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: in relationships, but in the workplace or friendships or wherever,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: that can go, hey, I made a mistake, but I'm
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: going to correct it. I'm going to fix it. Nobody
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: respects someone who tries to backpedal and act like they
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: didn't do anything wrong.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Nope.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: And I really think that if we think about it
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: from a romantic relationship perspective, I respect... my husband's a
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: lot when he can go, Hey, I could have done
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: that better. I missed the mark on that. I'm really
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: sorry that I hurt you. You know, and he can say,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: I made a mistake and here is how I'm going
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: to correct it. That's not the same as, okay, I'm sorry.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: I'll do better. We know that doesn't work, but actually
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: having a plan of here's how I'm going to correct
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: this mistake that will earn you so much respect in
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: your life. Just hear me on this people. Whether it's
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: in the workplace or wherever.
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: It creates intimacy. I mean, that's a baseline of intimacy
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: because it creates true repair in your relationship when someone's
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: able to come in and be like, I'm really sorry
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: I hurt you and this is what I'm going to
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: do to make it better. And then you're able to
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: connect on when they actually follow through. Yeah.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: And I feel like my couples sort of have three stages.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: They have stage one, partner can't take any accountability. It's
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: never their fault. whenever they bring up a problem, their
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: partner is defensive or shuts down or leaves the conversation
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: or gets reactive. And it's like pointless. They can never,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: ever say they're wrong. And I'm like, wow, it must
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: be very exhausting to never be able to be the
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: wrong person, right? That's a lot of internal mental gymnastics
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: you have to do to never be wrong ever. And
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: then we have a second layer where people can get
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: to the point where they can go, okay, you're right.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I'm But their nervous systems are still very
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: shame-based and very frozen. So they actually can't carry out
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: new behavior because the shame system, like when you are
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: operating from a basis of shame, you're running on autopilot.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Your psyche has to dissociate because shame is so painful.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: So if you are talking to yourself in a very
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: shameful way, your mind is going to want to try
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: to sort of check out. So it doesn't have to
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: be a part of that at the same time. Isn't
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: that crazy?
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: That is crazy.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: We're creating the pain that we then have to try
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: to dissociate from.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. It shows how powerful we are.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: We're so powerful.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Our mind is so freaking powerful. If you could see
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: it in the spirit world, if you could see it
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: in the quantum field, it would be on this like
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Donkey Kong. And so when you're dissociating, then you're not present.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: You're missing out on joy. There's no joy in the
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: land of dissociation. You don't get to choose what we suppress.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: We're suppressing pain or shame or fear. We're suppressing our
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: access and capacity to joy. We're suppressing our feelings for
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: our romantic partner. We're suppressing all happiness. There is no
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: joy in that state. And so imagine when you can
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: start speaking to yourself in this compassionate way, like, whoops,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: I dropped that. And you know, something simple and stupid.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Like I dropped a new compact that I just bought. Right.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: And of course, you know what happens when you drop
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: a compact and it shatters. Yeah. You're like, damn, that's
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: never going to be okay. Like it's going to be
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: messy crumbs. There's no keeping this. If I keep it
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: and just try to use it, it's going to be
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: a nightmare. Well, and that's $ 40 down the tube or whatever.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: And then what does your nervous system do with that?
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: What an idiot. Oh, that's such a waste. Look at
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: that money gone. Negative, negative, negative. And then your nervous
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: system responds to that in threat, right? I'm in threat.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: So I'm pumping out cortisol. I'm pumping out inflammation. Over
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: a stupid compact. Yes. Yeah. And then, you know, things
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: like that happen to me now. And I'm just like, oh, well.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: So be it.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: At least I didn't wreck my car today. I really
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: am someone who it's like I really like to try
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: to play the game of how could it be worse
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: to keep me in gratitude.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: How could this be worse?
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: And it's, it, it's really easy to play that game.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: It's very easy.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: And speaking about one in four people not having access
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: to clean water, you'll change your, your mindset.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Simple as people not being able to afford groceries. I mean, that's,
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Half of America right now.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: There are kids going to bed hungry. Did you feed
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: your kids today? Celebrate. Yes. Do you have a roof
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: over your head?
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Celebrate.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Do you have a car to drive? Celebrate. Do you
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: have clothes that cover your skin? Celebrate.
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: Do you have a meal to eat tonight? Celebrate. If
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: we just did that, our nervous systems would be fine.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: They would be fine. And if we can have compassion
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: when it doesn't go perfectly— Oh, it's okay. It's not
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: a big deal. That's not something to be upset over.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: And again, we're not trying to gaslight. Again, somebody's going
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: to be like, well, aren't you just gaslighting yourself, telling
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: yourself everything's fine when it's not? I know that's what
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: people are thinking. And I would say, no, tell yourself
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: the truth. If something doesn't feel good, you can say, hmm,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: that didn't feel good to me. Oh, I needed something.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I need something different here.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, I really, you know, wish I hadn't dropped that.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: that's truthful.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: But then I can follow it up with, and so
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: now what? Where do I want to go from here?
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Do I want to keep, do I want to think
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: about all the, you know, the $ 40 that I wasted
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: and how bad of a mistake that was? I just
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: dropped my compact or am I just going to be like,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: still have food to eat tonight? Yeah, exactly. You know?
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: And so it's not, it's not lying to yourself. If
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: your partner's doing something hurtful, the goal isn't to be like,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: they're fine. It's fine. It's all great. No, the goal
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: is to, instead of being like, they're such a jerk.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: They're terrible. They're never going to understand me. To be like, wow,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I just really don't like what they said. That doesn't
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: feel good to me. What do I need? What do
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: I need?
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: And I think, you know, we didn't talk a lot
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: about gratitude, but I think it's the antithesis to shame,
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: you know, and staying in gratitude and shifting the perspective. And,
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: you know, gosh, I could go in so many directions.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: And I really wanted to talk a little bit about,
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: you know, grief, because I think shame is such a
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: big piece of grief. Like when we lose somebody close
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: to us. Um, and I know that we've, we, I
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: think we should do a whole episode on grief and
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: just what that emotion really looks like. Um, so maybe
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: we save it for that, but you know, I know
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: personally that, you know, when my mother died, which is
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: really the only person that I've really lost that's close
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: to me. And I know that you probably experienced this with, with, uh, Jared, but,
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: you know, I think you feel this sense of real
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: shame that you didn't do enough.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Like I wasn't a good enough daughter. I should have
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: done more.
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: And I know that that is really, really hard to
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: sort of emotionally process. Yeah.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: I said, there's just this finality. There's no going back
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: and getting a redo, right? And that's where self-compassion can
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: come in. I was a human. I made mistakes. Yes,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: I could have done X, Y, Z thing different, but
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: I'm going to forgive myself. I'm going to decide that
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: Whatever version of me showed up there, I was at
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: my own capacity. And this was an interesting question that
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: Brene Brown posited several months back. I saw a social
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: media clip about it. I don't know how long ago
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: she was actually talking about it, but I know I
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: just ran into it several months ago where she asked people,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: do you believe people do the best they can? And
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: my answer to that is yes, people do the best
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: they can. And then other people would come in and say, really?
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: What about the person that's like smoking crack on the
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: sidewalk and is stealing money, you know, to survive? That's
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: the best they can do. And what I think is
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: that people do generally the best they can with the
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: tools they have at the time. And those people really,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: really lack tools and they lack, you know, resources. resources.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: They lack internal tools. They lack so much.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, support systems is a huge piece.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Right. And then what we try to do to fix
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: the problem is to fix the poverty piece or to
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: get them to just stop using substances when the internal
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: piece isn't there. The internal capacity and tools aren't there.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: We only have so much capacity to self-regulate and not
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: sort of give in to the things that we want
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: that might be bad for us. So we have to
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: build that muscle within the nervous system. And we have
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: data now that shows that self-compassion builds that muscle. Self-compassion
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: is related far more to success than shame is. And
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: so if we can maybe, I don't know, I would
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: really love to delve into the research on self-compassion and addiction. Mm-hmm.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: Because I know for sure that my ex-husband had a
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: horrible inner critic. Occasionally, he would let it leak out,
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: and it was very different than his sort of external persona.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: He would speak to himself very negatively in little flashes
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: here and there if he made a mistake, which was
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: a lot different than the it's not my fault sort
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: of scenario. But either way, that's shame. When you're blame
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: shifting onto someone else, it's because you feel shame. Yep.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: It's not that you're not holding somebody accountable. We can
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: hold people accountable, but we got to get really clear
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: on what was my role, what was their role. And
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: we have to admit that most of the time if
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: things go wrong, there's likely a role that we played.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Not 100% of the time, but a lot of the time.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: And then let's focus on what we can control, which
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: is our role. And let's do it with compassion, forgiveness, love,
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: and gratitude towards ourselves.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: So I know that you've like, recently done some deep
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: diving into this. And so I want to ask, is
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: this currently a part of the hybrid group? I mean,
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: maybe not within the course, but.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: It will be very soon. It's in the new course.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: It's in the new course. It's in attachment OS. Um,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: and we're just weeks away from that.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We're, we're getting there guys.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: We're getting there. And I mean, I talk about it
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: and mention it a little bit, but I really feel
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: like this is the scientific antidote to shame where people
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: have been pushing shadow work, shadow work, shadow work. And
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: if you look at the evidence, it's not there. And self-compassion,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: the evidence is very, very strong, both in experimental studies
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: as well as correlational studies. Yeah. looking at field studies,
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: so observing people in the real world. It's just the
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: evidence is kind of everywhere. And that's what we want
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: to see in the science. We want to see things
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: being tested in a variety of ways and that these
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: findings hold up across situations and populations over time.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: And for my brain and for our listeners' brains, because
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: I've already forgotten, tell the difference between shadow work and self-compassion.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: Because what is the biggest difference between the two?
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Shadow work is identifying where you have shame and and
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: trying to sort of neutralize the shame associated with those things.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: So if I am a dismissive avoidant and I know
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: that I suppress vulnerability, it would be sort of intellectually
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: understanding that I have shame around being vulnerable and trying to,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: because I'm aware of that, practice more vulnerability. And I'm
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: not saying that there's zero benefit to doing that, But
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: what we know about the nervous system is that it's
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: not just about trying harder. Right. That sometimes trying too
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: hard makes us bounce back. So if you think about
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: the nervous system as a muscle, and there's so much
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: science behind how it functions like a muscle, and this
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: is a core part of my coaching program. What happens
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: if you lift weight that's way too heavy for you?
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: You get hurt.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: What happens?
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: You get hurt.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: You get hurt. you're so sore you can't go to
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: the gym for how many weeks? I've done it. I
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: think all of us at one point tried a new workout, right?
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: And then you're like, I can't go to the gym
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: for two weeks because I can barely sit on the toilet.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Like my legs are so sore. That's what happens to
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: the nervous system. So you can push through really hard.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: And this is what explains the vulnerability hangover effect with
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: more people with more avoidant attachment, like the dismissive avoidant.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: When they're using their nervous system to push through, for example.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: That suppressed vulnerability. So they're trying to be vulnerable. They're
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: trying to give time and effort. And then they have
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: this hard pullback where they isolate and they, you know,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: they sort of move away from their partner. It's because
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: they lifted weight that was too heavy for their nervous system.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: And instead of learning to sort of build capacity and
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: And then really care for the nervous system afterwards as well.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: And show themselves compassion.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: We want to take our amino acids. We're talking about
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: real muscles. We would take amino acids. We would stretch
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: after our workout. We would do some things to help
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: our muscles recover. The same is true of the muscle
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: of the nervous system, which may include reflecting and going...
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: instead of being like, oh, I shouldn't have shared that
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: or that was too much or that was stupid to
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: tell them that, which that's a lot of what dismissive
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: avoidance will do is they will say, you know, oh,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't have told them that or I regret saying
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: that or I regret sharing that about myself. They have
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: this really mean internal critic that comes right after the vulnerability.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: It keeps the shame in place. And it's like, no,
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: it's okay that I shared that. It's okay if they
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: don't understand it. It's okay if.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: If, If I'm regressing a little. It's okay.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: And again, that's not making an excuse for oneself, but
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: it's saying that if a mistake happens, is beating yourself
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: up over it going to change that mistake? No. In fact,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: the science says you're more likely to repeat the mistake.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: If we actually take accountability with self-compassion and forgiveness for oneself,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: we're less likely to repeat the mistake. And then what
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: are we viewing as mistakes? Is vulnerability truly a mistake?
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: It's not. So part of our understanding is it can
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: change the behavior, but we really got to help the
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: nervous system learn to do it and not push too
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: far and also know when it's okay to say, hey,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: you know, this, this, I need a little bit of time.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I need to care for myself after that workout. Right.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: But not so much where we then, for example, like
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: what the dismissive avoidant would do would be just avoid.
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: And then their partner's like, what in the heck just happened?
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: But if we can practice what we just did and
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: then say vulnerably, that felt really tough for me to
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: open up like that. And I'm feeling the need to
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: kind of shut down. And so I don't want to
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: do that to you, but I, but is it okay
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: if I just take a little bit of space to
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: kind of And know that I will be back.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: This absolutely is in your program.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: It's a totally different outcome.
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and this absolutely is in your program because it's
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: the baseline of solace.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is being able to feel through shame. Mm-hmm.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: is far more effective than just understanding shame. And I
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: think that that is why we see weak evidence for
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: shadow work, because it really stays at the level of understanding. Whereas,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: for example, my soulless practice and emotional processing really lets
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: us feel the extent of our shame, feel it through.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: And also the metacognitive piece paired with that allows us
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: to change the story. Instead of, I messed up, it's, okay,
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: maybe I made a mistake, but that's okay. I'm human and.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: I can forgive myself.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, signaling the safety component of it to tell the
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: body that you're actually safe regardless of what you're feeling.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: Feeling and experiencing. So there's a lot of pieces there
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: that we just shared. But bottom line is having compassion
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: for yourself is the antidote to internalized shame.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: It is. It really is. Yeah.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: Well, it's beautiful. I think maybe we should do more
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: episodes like this more often. You are on fire. You
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: are on fire today.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: It's because you're in LA and the weather is beautiful
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: and you've been in the sunshine for the past three days.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: It does. I have.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: It's really, really hard to be upset by the pool.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: I get it. I get it.
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to, even though it's a little churn
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: and burn. I am looking forward to going out there,
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: out west, and being out there for a couple of days. Well, guys,
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: thank you, as always, for tuning in. Please download this episode.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: Please download. We forgot to say that in the beginning.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we did forget to say that in the beginning.
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: We can't forget. We can't forget. Download this episode, please,
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: first and foremost.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: And obviously, go back.
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: Listen to— we have so many episodes. Now, I mean, we're
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: in season three. So go, you know, I don't know.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: You'll sit down and binge watch a show. Binge watch
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: this or binge listen to this podcast.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: Or you can watch it on YouTube, too. And you
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: can use code, LoveDog27.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: You can use LoveDog27 for 27% off any of Dr.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: Hensley's services. That is good for all of our listeners.
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: So please check her out at doctor, that's spelled out, SarahHensley.com.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: Please continue to tune in, like, subscribe, follow, leave us
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: a comment, write to us, whatever we want to hear
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: from you.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: We love you. We love you.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: Love you guys so much.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: And until next time, peace, love, and perspective.