Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / Why Men Don’t Talk About Their Pain - Men’s Health, Emotional Repression, and the Hidden Cost of Silence - Fortunate Sons Creators on Trauma, Addiction & Healing | Peter Jones & John Bard Manulis
Transcript
- (00:00) my classmate Kevin Cooper, his father committed suicide six weeks after we graduated from Harvard School for Boys. And Kevin went into his father's business uh because he was trying to repair the shame of the family. Now Kevin is not what his father was, which was an aggressive business guy. Kevin wound up manifesting the same kinds of things his parents did as addicts, alcoholics, and abusive parents. (00:32) Kevin's wife said, "Get help. This isn't good." Kevin got help. He worked with a therapist who specialized in trauma. Kevin got well and he became a trauma therapist owning a clinic, opening up a clinic with his therapist and he had a successful career helping young people deal with trauma. >> That is a success story and that came from Kevin opening up slowly with his story. (01:00) I didn't know about his father committing suicide until he told me. >> Wow. My guest today, producer John Bard Manuelist and Emmy-winning filmmaker Peter Jones are the creators of Fortunate Sons, a documentary following the 1974 class of Harvard School for Boys. Raised for excellence and leadership, their classmates went on to face addiction, depression, burnout, broken marriages, and generational trauma until reconnecting decades later in emotional conversations that they were never allowed to have as boys. (01:36) >> My life partner came from the class just behind us, and he kicked me out of the house when he caught me. shooting heroin. He just said, "Get out." >> And uh saved my life. I I went into treatment and he showed up, you know, family day, partner day, and it was amazing cuz I never felt more loved. the partner did. (02:12) In in my case, he definitely saved my life because I was slowly killing myself, repressing feelings of neglect when I was a little kid. And I had to work on that stuff. And we call it in 12step work, it's an inside job. We cannot get the answer from outside of us. We have to dig deep, but we can do it in the presence of others who have been there before. (02:36) We talk about how emotional repression shows up physically, why men often disconnect from their own needs, and how families can support healthier relationships with vulnerability and truth. Please join me in welcoming both John and Peter to the show. Hi everyone, it's Dr. Taz. Before we get into today's episode, I just want to pause and say thank you. (03:01) Your messages, your shares, your stories are the reason we make Whole Plus. Every conversation here is about connecting the science, the intuition, and everyday life together so you can feel more like yourself. Again, if you haven't already, hit that subscribe or follow button. It helps us reach more people who need this. All right, let's begin. (03:21) Well, thank you both for being here. I feel like this is a very important conversation that we're about to have. One of the things as a mom and a wife and a colleague and friend and all the different roles that we play is that we can't have conversations around family health and we can't have conversations around women's health without talking about men's health. (03:43) And it is the one aspect of health in the whole wellness and health conversation that I feel like is either ignored or incredibly polarized and polarized into this sort of like you've got your biohackers and your gym bros, but you don't have a conversation about what's really happening underneath the surface. (04:03) And that's why I really wanted you both on the show today because I know you have both spent a lot of time in this space. You have an incredible documentary out called Fortunate Sons. And I would love for you to share with our audience what inspired you to even begin this journey of digging into where men are today and have been and what's going on with men? I've heard people say masculinity itself is in danger and there's a lot of threats to men across the board. (04:31) So tell us a little bit about your collective journeys and how you how you ended up doing this fabulous documentary. I have to be uh truthful and only speak from my experience. But then we found when people watch the film, it does reflect open it up. But when I was approached, our classmates would meet on Zoom during the pandemic. (04:53) And Zoom was an amazing thing that could bring people together. >> And these are your classmates from high school, right? >> John and I attended a school called Harvard School for Boys in the San Frernando Valley. Okay. Out of Los Angeles. And uh during the pandemic, guys were meeting on Zoom on Sundays. And after a number of calls, I was asked, would I be interested in maybe doing a documentary because that's my business. (05:22) And when I went on my first call, I must say the truth be told, I looked at everybody when they suggested the idea and I said, "Guys, who cares about a bunch of privileged white men? Is there a more loathed demographic in America right now?" >> I apologized two years later. I had to look at my own judgment about thinking these guys uh back when we were in high school were boys who only are thinking of themselves or are bullying each other. (05:56) It turned out that when we did one-on-one interviews, they opened up in a way I wasn't expecting >> really. Well, I'm so amazed first of all that you guys started meeting during Zoom. What What triggered that? Like at Were you meeting before? Were all of you guys getting together consistently in the past? No, not at all. Um the we had gotten together in the past over life events like a classmate dying 10 years earlier that features into the film >> that had brought people together. (06:22) But other than small groups um the whole class had sort of you know moved on and drifted >> and about 3 weeks into co one of the guys just um wrote or said is anyone interested in seeing a friendly face and uh we put together the first zoom and about 35 people showed up. That's >> the classes only we have at that time we had about 85 alive and uh and then they wanted to do it again as Peter said and then that became a monthly thing. (06:52) >> So how did it go from because you know again I've been gifted to be around so many great men but my observation has been they usually communicate in the context of sports or going out or grunts. Exactly. No one really asks each other how they are or what's going on or you know how they're feeling or any of these kind of deeper questions. (07:14) How did you guys transition from a military class of boys right to you know having these conversations on Zoom and then kind of getting even deeper than that? How did that happen? >> It took first of all growing up our parents came from the greatest generation World War II. My father did not talk about the war and people that served in the war overseas very rarely talked about what they were going through. (07:41) So now we're the first generation, the boomers after the the World War II parents and it was just children should be seen and not heard. >> So that was the kind of the operating thing. And then when we got to a military academy, it was very much children would be listening and taking orders. And once it became more progressive, well then we're just being boys. (08:05) But I think listening to one another and caring about what someone else has to say, that only came with time and life. >> I think also the the fact where the story began and really the reason we decided it could be a really interesting documentary beyond just getting that many guys to talk honestly about life. But it began because this crucible of moment of 1968 where we were you know 7 years old marching with guns um in a allmale Episcopal school and around the corner literally few months was Woodstock and the beginning of huge (08:41) changes like seismic changes in America and world culture for the next five decades. Wow. One after another. And so I think in a way that actually helped these group of guys because on one level they had everything had been up you know upended for them from what they were expected to be and there you know to be the leaders of this society right and everything got upended and then just kept getting upended for them and they had to evolve and change and I think that opened them up to a certain extent by force as they (09:15) could have either just shut down or rolled with it to some extent for the part they rolled with it. And then by the time we started having these conversations, they were at a point in their life where the competition was less. The the need to sort of posture, the need to the the power of the ego, the need to sort of strut and pretend that you were doing great or keep up the facade, which we've all seen in reunions over the years and things was kind of gone and they were ready to actually talk about life. (09:42) >> Wow. So, it's so interesting because I feel like that time almost mirrors today to a certain extent, right? Where There's been assumptions about what your destiny is, what your leadership role is, and they've fallen apart or they've been blown up by shifts in culture and shifts in society. (09:59) And I feel like that's what a lot of men today are experiencing as well. I think we've seen some of that even with, you know, what resonated in some of the elections recently and what's resonated across the board is that, you know, men trying to hold on to something. You know what has been your observation and what comes out in the documentary when it comes to being raised with privilege and being raised with assumption and then having that kind of pulled out from under you. (10:24) What what does that do to the male psyche and the male ego and and how do they react to that? >> Again, speaking from my own person, >> too loaded of a question. >> Yeah. Well, no. I I heard I get it bearing within that speaking from my own experience having come from privilege u and the kind of background children to be seen and not heard. (10:44) I went through uh some emotional I had some mental illness in my life, depression that uh I've been able to to deal with and basically what I needed to learn how to do was talk through things I've been keeping inside. Mhm. >> Most of my life again fear of uh I could never be what my father was because he was a master of the universe in his world. (11:11) He ran a multinational corporation building airplanes during the Cold War. >> Wow. >> And so I imagined myself staying like a little child >> and when I got to be, you know, went into p puberty, I kept my voice like a child's voice >> really. And now I understand through lots of therapy. Of course, I'm still waiting to get that hug. (11:33) And look, I I figured a lot of stuff out, but it was through getting a lot of help, getting sober, uh, and really learning that the skill set I developed as a defense when I was a kid, which was sizing up a room and being a people pleaser, >> worked well in my career as a journalist and a filmmaker because you have to learn how to listen and earn people's trust. (11:59) very quickly and like the classmates, they were a able to tell me things because they knew they could trust me and they knew that I would answer any question they had about my life because I was going so deep with the questions about their life. >> Interesting. So, as you're talking to your classmates and you guys are getting into these deeper conversations, are there themes emerging? Are there themes like everyone was parked in ego like you talked about, but underneath that there was a whole lot of stuff going on. (12:28) What did you guys see or hear as these conversations continued? a lot of fathers and sons stuff obviously and relatively consistent I think of um guys who had to find that they were that it was okay in fact good to make their own way >> to not necessarily do what was expected of them but to figure out what they wanted to do and take that step and sometimes that took decades um to do sometimes it took the death of a parent to do um you know I think that was consist consistent in uh across a pretty broad range of people. (13:06) >> Is that what you saw as well? Is that a big theme for men that the pressure of what their father did or the pressure of what you know their family expectations of their family? Is that what what does that feel like for men? >> I'll tell you the way you asked the question of me, I would be aware with the guys that we would be heading in that direction. (13:28) But if I were to come out and say, "Well, tell me about the pressure you felt coming from your father." The thing would happen where they would climb up and back my hair is beginning to stand on in because I understand that. So, I was very sensitive about that because I could tell when a conversation they were really talking about the father-son dynamic, >> but I couldn't come out and actually say that because men >> keep things in. (13:56) And even when they were being open and expansive, I was ever mindful that that clamshell could close just like that. >> I know that clamshell well. I see it. I see it in the exam room. I see it at home. I I know all about that clamp. >> Roles are a comforting thing. >> They are. But how do we So this idea that men continue, you know, to really rely on emotional repression, right? I think both of you talk about that in the documentary that they push it down and push it down and cover it up and cover it up. (14:27) And to even your point, as a classmate, you can't ask that question, leave alone, you know, somebody else in their family can't ask that question or they're going to get the clamshell, you know. How do you help men or help educate men to understand what emotional repression first of all looks like and what it's doing to them and how to your point I think you both bring this up in the documentary how it leads to a cycle of addiction, anxiety and mental health disorders. (14:55) Well, it's taking the time to let them know like I'm looking at you now directly and talking, not losing eye contact because I knew when I'm interviewing something and it goes deep. If I even look down, it can break the trust. >> So, I learned early on in my career as an interviewer to just stay with the person I'm talking to. (15:18) And especially a classmate who is going deep in ways he never has before. I'm there to say I won't abandon you. >> I'm here no matter what happens. I'm not going to go away. Which sounds like daddy talking to a kid, right? >> I'm cutting to the chase, but that's the dynamic cuz I'm so sensitive to that >> and they open up because they see that I'm present for them 100%. (15:45) >> What were some of those conversations like that you guys were having with them? Give us some examples. What was coming out? Uh well the the my classmate Kevin Cooper his father committed suicide six weeks after we graduated from Harvard School for Boys and Kevin went into his father's business uh because he was trying to repair the shame of the family. (16:10) Now Kevin is not what his father was which was an aggressive business guy. >> Kevin wound up manifesting the same kinds of things his parents did as addicts. alcoholics and abusive parents. Kevin's wife said, "Get help. This isn't good." Kevin got help. He worked with a therapist who specialized in trauma. Kevin got well, and he became a trauma therapist, owning a clinic, opening up a clinic with his therapist, and he had a successful career helping young people deal with trauma. (16:46) That is a success story and that came from Kevin opening up slowly with his story. I didn't know about his father committing suicide until he told me. >> Wow. Any others? Is there a story that you remember and sticks in your mind? >> There's stories I don't remember more interestingly I think which is that you know we all we all grew up together and our parents some of our parents were friends. We were in each other's houses. (17:11) uh you know, we were close, a lot of these guys, right? And um and there was very little if any recognition of stuff that was going on behind the scenes uh with friends who I learned through this process had dire issues going on with their parents um with being abused by a parent with parents being abused by the other parent with >> and this is in your community >> in our community >> privileged community right with with things that they had to struggle to figure out and deal with through the course of their life. I was in those (17:48) houses >> intimately >> and never >> knew about this. >> Never knew about it. Now admittedly, you're not as curious at that age and you're really just doing what you can do to have experiences together, but still you're very sensitive. You know, the antenna are out and I didn't know that. I mean, you know, someone's father is tough or someone's father is a playboy or someone's father is, but you don't know any of the we didn't know any of the details behind it. (18:18) And that was fascinating to to experience that and fascinating in the sense of what it changed in our relationships because you're suddenly more intimate with each other, right? >> And having that knowledge of each other and in a way Peter and I were at an inequal because we were doing interviews, we were seeing the tapes of people. (18:36) Well, Peter was doing the interviews, but I was seeing tapes of everybody and they don't know the same things about us. So, there was an inequality we had to we had to work on evening out and and getting the trust. >> So, these men are having these conversations with both of you. You guys are getting >> and with each other >> and with each other. (18:56) There were these zooms every month camaraderie almost of >> 15 20 of them. Yeah. >> And and they're becoming vulnerable. They're expressing intimacy, right? So many men don't have that opportunity, right? And so many men are not in a community where that can happen naturally. What are some of the patterns that you guys could identify that was coming out of some of these conversations of where if a a listening today whether they have like you we were talking before a father, a brother, a husband, whoever, or we have men listening, you know, what are some of (19:28) the patterns that maybe they could start to self-identify or the people around them could start to identify as, hey, this is a pattern of emotional repression. It may be helpful to be a part of what get therapy, be a part of a group. What like what are what are sort of if you know putting my doctor hat on now if we're trying to identify right and then trying to guide what is what are the signs and symptoms you caught me just a second ago like don't ask about the father like what is the right way to approach that conversation and where (20:02) where do we push them like where do we get them to go so we don't get the clamshell >> well you said the two don't you love metaphors that stick I'm telling you >> I know >> um but You you talked about individual therapy and group therapy and I was part of a men's group for many years and I had individual therapy >> and it gets back to again the the father my father only just before he died told me family secrets >> and the bigger issue was I was able to watch my father finally unburden himself of things that had caused him great pain (20:44) and I was there comforting him though I would have really benefited from knowing those family secrets >> decades prior >> and what I learned was that my they're they're gone now and >> I love both my parents but I'm using them for as a teaching tool right now >> uh my mother's uh father committed suicide >> on my 14th birthday so I thought Gramps died you're 14. (21:15) What does a kid think? >> Old age or >> and or it's my fault. My >> fault somehow. >> Uh and I never was told that for about 25 years. And then my father also told me about how abusive my mother could be physically towards us. And also he acknowledged she was abusive towards him. Oh my god. There was an event that I only knew about when I had one of my first uh troubling episodes and saw a psychiatrist with my father who brought me in to see the doctor. (21:50) >> And the doctor asked me about my mother and I wasn't able to say anything. And my father jumped in and said, "Well, how could you trust a woman who grabbed her daughter by the ankles and yanked her out of bed and bounced her head on a wooden floor?" Oh my god. >> Holy crap. My father gave me the biggest gift because that really opened up understanding. (22:15) 30 years passed though. And he said, "You remember I told you that story?" I said, "Dad, I never forgot it. You know what happened after she bounced your sister's head on the floor? She spun around and looked at me and said, "You know why she's a rotten kid? Because of your bad seed." >> Oh boy. Yeah. (22:33) And I just said, "Dad, I am so grateful that you were able to finally get that out." >> Then so many things came together. And for guys out there, just tell the truth and take the time, get help, or just call a friend and earn the trust because it will be there. Because if you've known these guys for a long time, like this guy is one of the finest human beings I've ever known. (23:00) When we were kids, we're just kids. We didn't know it. Who knew? >> But this was the most pos this is the best working relationship I've ever had with someone collaborating. He's an amazing human being. He's a kind person. He's a sensitive person and he's a smart person. So, have I answered the question? I don't know. (23:20) But the key is just listen to one another because the secrets, we are as sick as our secrets. >> We are as sick as our secrets. And you you asked sort of how to open that door. >> Yes. >> With people. And I think no one men or women like to be told what to do. You know, we all bring up the barriers, right, when someone is prescribing Yeah. (23:43) >> to us. Yeah. >> Or >> and unless you've hit the bottom, which is, you know, with addiction or even as you mentioned with Kevin, you know, in terms of being open to his wife saying, "You need help." He had to get to a certain point where that would not have been resisted, right? I think um what Peter's saying is really important because it's important to say I'm to ask somebody not to have to not to be pro not to be prodded into it but to say I have something I want to talk about. I have something that is painful. (24:15) I have something I want to share. Um and and get the trust back in just in that moment. make sure that you get the the moment of trust that I'm here with you and I'll be here for you and take your time. We can come back to it again, whatever. But you have to take that first step because if it's the partner doing it, you're going to clam up, >> right? >> And um the minister at my wedding uh said something really extraordinary that I've used when I've officiated a wedding since. (24:50) And one of our classmates 40 years later, Brad, um, said to me in this process, uh, I remember I was at your wedding and I remember what Clark Oler said and it changed my life and I've held it ever since and changed his life and it was basically in the marriage in the in the advice that was being given by the minister he I think he said something to the extent of there Will be a time when you, one of you, goes into an extremely dark place >> and you don't see your way out. (25:25) You don't know how to get out. You don't know if you want to get out. You don't know what to do. And as the partner, you won't know what to do. And the only thing you can do is say, "I will be here for you when you come out." >> That chills. >> I will be here for you when you come out, and I need you to know that. (25:42) >> And then live to that. Live that live that oath. >> And I And Brad remembered that. and found that it changed his life and his marriage as a permission structure in a way as a so I think that's how we that's how people open up is they they see they model behavior they see something they hear something they take it on themselves and then they act on it >> so for the men listening to us today I think we're we are trying to gently say be open you know find someone you can be open with because we are as sick as our (26:16) secrets And emotional repression leads its way to addiction and all kinds of other issues down the road. I see it in the exam room as inflammation, as cortisol, as hormone collapsing, as disease patterns, right? So, we're in alignment and thinking how how these two things are very much connected together. But for the partners, because I've sat with both, right? I've sat with partners and I've sat and I' I'm in both roles too personally. (26:44) you know, you always want to fix something, you know, like I just want to fix this. I want to fix it for you. Here's an appointment. Here's a this. Here's a that. >> And I'd like to fix it quickly. >> And I'd like to fix it quickly because we got to get on with our lives and we have stuff to do, right? So that's from listening to both of you. (26:59) That seems to be the most counterproductive strategy that any of us could employ as partners from the conversations that both of you seem to have had with all the men in your class. Again, another personal experience. My partner, I uh in fact, it was an all boys school, but my life partner came from the class just behind us at Harvard School, and we've been together since 1973, and he kicked me out of the house when he caught me shooting heroin. (27:37) He just said, "Get out." M >> and uh saved my life. I I went into treatment and he showed up, you know, family day, partner day, and it was amazing cuz, you know, working with a therapist. He was like, I don't want to say a drill sergeant, but it was a good thing that just really paying attention. (28:03) Is Peter really getting it? >> His name is Peter, too. Mhm. >> But the point was I never felt more loved >> but it was so get out >> in that action. You felt loved >> in that. No, in that action. >> You know what? I can't answer that. I'm in the moment. I'm shooting dope. >> Yeah. >> But he just said get out and then like my worst nightmare is that I'm abandoned. (28:29) But you know what? I made that happen because of my behavior. >> Right. But in retrospect, I thought, "Wow, he just said no." Like Kevin Cooper, his wife saying, "Tough love. >> This isn't good. Tough love." >> Yeah. >> And in retrospect, yes, the partner did in in my case, he definitely saved my life because I was slowly killing myself, repressing feelings of neglect when I was a little kid. And I had to work on that stuff. (28:59) And we call it in 12step work, it's an inside job. We cannot get the answer from outside of us. We have to dig deep. But we can do it in the presence of others who have been there before. >> And we call those sponsors and sponses. >> But I always tell a spons I will never leave you. (29:20) There's nothing you're going to do that's going to scare me off. There's nothing you're going to say that will scare me off because I've been there. and you only listen to people who have been there >> and walked a similar road and that trust component >> and being told that you will be there and that and I think that's the key actually in that way. (29:39) I also want to say just for for the balance of this I've never been in therapy. >> I don't know that experience at all. I've never been addicted. I don't know the 12step experience at all. Um, and I agree with all of that. And I think there's a certain intuitive element to that if you listen to and you think about how you want to be treated and you think about how you react to situations and to people pushing you. (30:02) You there's there's a understanding of what kind of trust is needed and desired and it's up to you to create that that space. And I've always found it actually from my point, as I said, not having been in therapy, but I've always found, you know, you you look for I wouldn't say superpowers, but you look for things that are part of your power with people or with groups of people. (30:25) >> And I've always found mine was about opening up. that that was part of a way to be unique, to engender trust, to create relationships, and uh and and and ultimately that's what you're looking for is bonds and and people to feel like they can have a a specific relationship with you. (30:47) And that was always something I've I don't mean to say used because it sounds manipulative, but something that I felt was valable was valuable to do. >> That's a gift. And I and again I think that dynamic between trust, vulnerability, opening up >> the partner having strong boundaries. It sounds like then we need to have bound like any partner needs to have boundaries with what >> they deem is acceptable versus unacceptable, right? Is that what I'm hearing from from both your experiences is actually a certain point. (31:16) >> I think if you have the boundary if you if you exercise the boundaries too soon, you shut someone off. >> You shut someone off. that like if if it is a non-negotiable line or if it is something that is creating havoc in the family home or hurting other people within the home that's a boundary that the partner almost has a responsibility to stay true to >> and in a loving way as you just you know mentioned in your own personal story actually motivates the other person to move forward you know without having to (31:45) necessarily say a whole lot which I think is incredible when we go back to the boys from Harvard bird and they become men. How many of them some of them somehow >> good point very good point but anyhow but as hopefully most of them became men. How many of them were in this cycle of emotional repression that then led to addiction or divorce or anxiety or mental health disorders? >> I can speak for I contacted probably 75% of the guys uh interviewed 30. (32:19) >> Okay. And of the 30 I would say actually I would say about 25 of the 30 talked about rough patches in their life that they had gone through and okay if you look at the class of a hundred those are guys that are still keeping things in >> and choosing not to participate because you know a lot of people said you know that's high school I don't need I don't want to go back there. (32:51) And I was the one who said, "Well, I'm not interested. These guys, we came from privilege. Who'd be interested?" That's my own judgment. But once we did get talking, guys would talk about the dark stuff, but to get to the light. And with every one of the stories that are in the film fortunate sons, there's a transcendence uh where you actually are living what they went through and by how they're telling the story, you know, they are not unhappy damaged people. (33:26) There are people who have healed themselves. I know we talk about John says like, "Hey, you know, you don't want to make it look like everybody's messed up, >> right?" Um, and I didn't see that. I saw it just together, candid uh, wonderful whole whole men. Not everyone is like that in life, but they were modeling and and that's why I think the film works so well when people watch it, particularly women, they respond because they're watching men talking candidly. (33:58) >> They're also watching men listening to one another, >> right? Are men watching the documentary? What are they saying when they watch the documentary? >> Well, the first thing they say is, "It's not what I expected." >> Really? Yeah. What were they expecting? >> Well, something about Zoom conversations or reunion or, you know, whatever. (34:18) I mean, >> okay. >> Um, vulnerability talks. I I don't really know. I mean, it's the interesting thing we found in showing the film to people and it having it out there and it's out there pretty widely now at this point is that um as much as it's a very specific slice of our society and the story is a very specific one that comes from privilege and and demographically it's very narrow and >> right >> it's very universal in what it's about >> and obviously privilege is privilege hasn't protected any of these guys but (34:52) that's not the story. There's no there's no feel sorry for us in this. What there is is these are universal human experiences that everyone man, woman, 20, 30 to 90 seem to be relating to and seem to be able to connect to their own families and their own experiences, their own friendships. That's been really powerful. (35:16) Well, I love this documentary because I think it does tell the story of men and men coming together in a healing way. Coming together in community, how community heals, how friendship heals, how, you know, part of me as you guys are both talking, I'm like, "Do we need to make emotional suppression like a diagnostic, you know, criteria to force people to like be like, "Oh my gosh, this is me. (35:37) " You know, because sometimes it takes a minute before you get to that realization that you're in that pattern, you know? So I think the documentary is incredible that way selfishly but also bringing us forward a little bit because you know this was as you said 1968 men were going through a particular thing leadership was changing society was changing we're kind of there again right now and there's been a lot of discussion in culture about the threat to the modern man you know and I'm sure both of you have been following that and how you (36:07) know men are falling behind in education they're falling behind in financial capacity they are falling behind even in a familial role because as women take on more roles and more responsibilities even with our own reproduction, they're finding that they're like, "Okay, where's the relevance of the male and of masculinity and what does that mean today?" As men struggle with this or as mothers raise sons or as we work in family systems, what lessons can we take from the documentary, you know, that you guys have created and from the men that (36:39) you have sort of traversed over almost like a 30, 40, 50 year history, right, in terms of how they have, you know, charted their own journeys. What are some of the the lessons we can gift to young men today, you know, or to men that are in the in sort of a middle-ag phase of their life, you know, whatever phase they're in? Or we talked about my 16-year-old son. (37:02) What can I tell a very driven 16-year-old of what his blind spots may be as he moves through life and enters his journey? You know, what what are some of the pearls that we can pass on? >> Get off social media. Oh my god, if I could win that one, you know, >> I'm telling you, I mean, this is one thing that uh the parents talking to the guys that are fathers, they put a limit on, you know, for us, I got one hour of television a week, >> so there was the limits there and I'm grateful for that. (37:36) Although I went into the business, but right >> I mean uh then I had to play with rocks and play out in the, you know, throwing oranges at John and we played together with other kids. Today kids are playing with a screen and it's not real. And the the advice up and down would be, you know, get them out of the schools, put your phones, you know, in a box and lock it up. (38:02) It's fascinating because at the same time, parenting has changed from being relatively hands-off to being very hands-off. >> Hands on. Oh my gosh. >> And and it turns out that kids are pretty resilient and kids make their way through any of these structures in some way. And they get damaged in different ways by different parenting along the way. (38:21) And I don't think we've figured out >> none of the rules are are the best yet for kids. And >> but in our era they they sponsored creativity and they sponsored activity and friendships and and connecting with the connecting with the natural world and by having rules and being handsoff and >> this current situation I can't say that parents have created the addiction to social media but the helicoptering oversight has not obviously helped in any way that it was expected to help that you know becoming your kid's best friend or you know being deeply involved (38:57) uh and all the pieces of that don't seem to have yielded >> the results >> any noticeable result that was really different in some way or better in some way I should say >> well both of you have talked about especially you've talked about fathers right and the role of the father and the secrets of the father and the influence of all of that you know for the modern day father what's the right balance so if we're not if we're telling the dad not to helicopter and not to like obsess about every data point and every goal or (39:25) whatever else that the child is doing, but we also don't want the hands-off father necessarily, right? Like what is what is the right role? What is what does a father need to do to model future masculinity? >> You know what? Shared activity. Um my dad was a sailor. >> And my dad was a sailor. And at the time, I'm thinking it was the time I could be with my dad. (39:49) I learned how to fold sails. I haven't sailed since, but that was time to be with my dad and we had a routine washing the sailboat, stopping for uh frost frosty, you know, uh Dairy Queen soft ice cream. Now, >> uh but that was vivid in my brain is having a shared activity with my dad. >> So, I would say just have a weekly shared activity that you both like. (40:16) It can even be watching a game on television or setup counts. But it's a share it's a shared activity. My father and I would play pool listening to the voice of the Dodgers, Vince Scully, calling a baseball game. >> Those were moments I cherish. But it would with guys, you got to have something you're doing. >> You're doing guys are very activity oriented. (40:38) They bond through actions >> and talk comes out of that in fits and starts in unobvious ways. and you and you model behavior or you see behavior, you see how people handle ethical situations, moral situations, but there isn't necessarily conversation about it in that way. And also I think um I think that just knowing even if there isn't shared activity I think the next piece would be just uh being sure that the fact that you love them and trust them and are there for them is clear >> and not a debate >> and does not waver >> does not waver no matter what no matter (41:15) what's going on or are you worried about what looks like or feels like the increasing rates of mental health issues in young men today addiction to different substances drug abuse, alcoholism, >> and our class, by the way, um we've lost I think we've lost 15% >> of our class, which is above the average for this age. (41:35) >> Yeah. >> And the bulk of those were suicide or addiction. >> Addiction issues. >> So, it's it's not actually we're not necessarily out of sync with what's going on right now. >> You know what? Uh my best friend died 12 years ago, cerosis. And I remember there's a there's a photograph of us in the movie on a camping trip and it was on that camping trip where his name was Dennis and around the campfire I was telling him about how I was starting to see a therapist. (42:07) >> Mhm. >> He made fun of that. >> He did. >> He made fun of it. And that was the beginning of pulling away from the guy I was closest to for 15 years. And now as I look back, he he didn't get get that help. And I have a little notebook that I kept during a dark time, 1986, would write little quotes, positive things, because I knew I'd get out of it one day. (42:38) And one of the notes was ask Dennis if he wanted to go to an AA meeting on Melrose Avenue here in Los Angeles. >> His response, >> that's too far away. Let's go to the beach. I realize, you know, he died of alcoholism. I got sober in 1998. >> Is there a way to reach friends or partners or lovers or children that are in that space? >> They have to hit their own bottom. (43:04) There's no way you can short circuit it. >> They have to hit their bottom and you'll be there when they do. >> I don't know that I like that answer. >> I'm sorry. >> No, because because for the person on the outside, it's incredibly painful. I mean it's obviously painful for the person in the throws of the addiction too but but the the the sense of abandonment or that what tough the the ability to step up and have the courage to be tough with love >> is extraordinary courage >> and it sounds like for when we go back (43:33) to the family systems and the community systems I think reinforcing that right within the home or within the community >> I've heard trust today I've heard openness allowing people to be vulnerable not pushing so they don't become um clamshells, you know, communities, asking the questions, you know, getting off social media, creating boundaries when you're the partner or the parent. (43:58) These are patterns that have emerged as things that are more successful when you're dealing with somebody in this situation. What else do you hope people will take away from this documentary? I'll also I'll say I'll answer that based on what you just said also which is by the way because it it is what happened in this documentary which is guys developed a cohort they developed a system they developed whether it was three people they could trust or 10 some of I'm getting together on Friday night with 10 guys >> um for dinner that happened a month ago (44:29) with the different six guys um from our class I mean not and one of the ways to deal with that courage that's needed to address those tough times is to not be alone >> in that. If you're if you're if you're dealing with a problem with the person who's closest to you or someone who's very close to you in your family, you need your own support system. (44:51) You can't just be strong and courageous in dealing with it. And so that's where having a cohort of some whether it's one person or three people or and women are much better at that, >> right, >> than men, >> right? We'll pick up the phone and call. That's one of the things this sort of trusted friendship group, however big it is or small it is that we discovered I think in the movie was really key. (45:14) >> So I think our directive then to men is to find your cohort. Yeah. >> Really build that cohort, invest in it, you know, and I think you have to do it. You know, I have so many female friends obviously, but so many of them are like I arrange playdates for my husband or for my partner, right? So, which is great, but I think at the end of the day, the, you know, as a male or as a guy or a boy or whoever, you know, start to use that muscle like start to build that, right? You know, we talk about that a lot at home because a (45:44) lot of us are driven at home and head down and trying to get things done and trying to get from point A to point B and all this other business. But, >> but trying to build community and build a cohort is a skill. >> Yeah. And it's a value that we all need to put more emphasis on when we're talking about success. (46:02) >> And if you don't do it in the easy time, you won't have it available later on. It's almost like putting dollars into a bank, right? And generating some return on it. And I think that when we're thinking about whether we're thinking about privilege or we're thinking about high achievers or we we're even thinking about anybody like you said demographically, I think that is a skill that I don't hear about. (46:25) I don't hear people teaching that as mothers or parents or right >> or private school institutions or colleges like let's invest in this skill which is going to serve you in good times and in bad and I think your documentary and your journeys together for all these years have demonstrated that and have really shown that and I think there's some really incredible stories coming out of all of that. (46:49) Is there anything else you want people to take away from this documentary? And where is the documentary headed, by the way? And where can people watch it? I think that >> Well, it's it's on PBS available on PBS stations. We're now in 86% of the United States in terms of all the PBS stations and they can go to their local PBS outlet and then it's going to be available on uh video on demand I think beginning of the year. (47:12) >> Okay. Amazing. >> Um but my >> it's on the PBS app so it's streaming streaming on the PBS app at the moment. But you know about like what to do. I was thinking learning to talk to one another. >> But the key >> is learning to listen. >> And when someone sees that you're actually paying attention to what they're saying and not thinking about what they're going to say next, that's when the magic happens. (47:39) It's interesting. I'm saying you're going to learn how to talk through feeling comfortable enough, being able to listen, then when you talk, you're going to be listened to. >> Yeah. And I I I totally agree and I I would add the word respect. >> Yeah. into that which I think may not be in terms of men finding the relationship with men but in terms of bridging the gaps with women with bridging the gaps with people of different upbringings and different cultures is go into it with respect for the other person the same (48:12) that old golden rule you know treat people the way you'd like to be treated yourself and it gets you a long way there I I think privilege has been as much of an asset for me which is kind of obvious vious, you know, and how that plays out. But it's also been a hindrance in ways that people don't recognize, at least in the way that I've worked because I've done a lot of my work in areas that are um FEMA camps and Appalachia and Navajo Nation and >> and you know kids in >> Jacksonville high schools and you know (48:45) dealing with racism and a lot of places where >> without the ability to listen, without the ability to to put my privilege aside entirely and and be there on their grounds and in their reality would never work. >> Respect is a big one >> and I guess it explains why after uh making the film I started last quarter I'm attending Antioch University to get a master's degree in psychology during the filming guys would say well Peter have you thought about being a psychotherapist? Uh no. Um but actually after making the (49:24) film and what do I want to do next with my life because I believe to the that phrase to whom much has been given much is expected. >> Absolutely. >> And in making this film anyway I'm I'm going to get a degree. Yeah. Hopefully in two years I have to get 3,000 hours working with clients before I actually get a license. (49:45) But this is my way of giving back is again practicing the skill set >> as a listener really and allowing someone to find their voice through my letting them know I'm listening to you. >> That's incredible. >> You asked what we're doing with the film. >> Yeah. >> And it is available and we mentioned that. (50:04) But we're doing something else because it actually is a film that has impact on people and very few films do. they entertain, but this is one that actually has the ability to change people's lives. And when we realized that, we decided to that you had to somehow get into the communities. You had to get below the level of just it's available on a streaming platform or whatever. (50:26) So, we've been partnering with schools, with community groups, with nonprofits, um, churches, senior community centers around the country to get kind of burrow into the communities where people really can take this message and and bring it into their family, bring it into themselves and have these conversations that can be really transcendent, transformative conversations. (50:51) and that uh people can put their own host host their own screenings for their own um for their own community groups, their own church groups, their own sports teams, whatever. And uh that available that's on our website, the ability to host your own screening, get in touch with us about it, to help support the to support the campaign financially if you can, to help us get to more communities because we're our feeling was that that's where this really can have its impact. (51:19) I, you know, as you guys have both been talking, I actually want to take this to the schools, you know, my children are involved in. What's the What is that website? >> Uh, it's fortunate-sons.com, and there's sections on it for host a screening. There's a page called impact, which is where you can see what we're doing with the campaign. (51:35) There's the ability to donate. All those things are on the >> they're on that. They're all on the on the one website >> in the show notes and on the screen as well as I start to play this. But this is to me very important. What's your hope for men and boys as we move forward? >> Just never give up. >> Never give up. I like that. (51:54) What about you? >> I I have a lot of hope because I I was blessed to know a man named Buckminster Fuller later in his life with someone who was not only a major thinker but had lived for 90 plus years and saw the sweeps of the pendulum swing. Uh, and I feel like, you know, we're watching the pendulum swing in this way just within our own 50 years of this movie, 60 years of this movie, and it will continue to. (52:18) So, I have I have hope for it, but I think we all have to bring grace to each other. We all have to respect each other, and uh, and I think we have to start to find trust and then act on that trust. And I think things will be good. We're meant to be different, >> right? >> Everyone is unique. (52:35) We're not meant to all somehow fit into some cookie cutter proper mold. We just have to realize that it comes out of love or comes out of respect or comes out of whatever and that that's the driving force that holds us all together. >> Do you think part of the reason and I promise this is my last question. Well, maybe second the last question. (52:52) Do you think part of the reason that men have more issues is that they have a little bit more of sort of I don't want to say a fixed mind but a structured mind where it's harder to be nimble, right? It's a little bit harder to be like, okay, I'm like women like oh we're a mom one day, next day we're not. (53:09) we're like an executive, the next day we're, you know, a grandparent, you know, like we're constantly shifting all over the place. Whereas, I feel like men, you know, kind of have a little bit more of a structured existence, period. Do you feel like that actually works against them? And maybe the challenge for the future man is to be more nimble, to be willing to change and grow and to understand that as like the external world continues to be chaotic and present us with new challenges, the men that will win will be open, able to have (53:39) conversations, have respect, but most importantly, maybe be able to be flexible and a little bit more nimble. >> I think you said it all yourself and I'd add one more word. Humility. >> Humility. have humility >> because I mean I want people to know >> and if not if you don't life will tell life will give it to you. (54:00) >> That's true. You will be humbled by life. Humility is an amazingly it's a wonderful word. I said never give up but stay humble. It's not all about you. >> Ask somebody in aa there's a line a sponsor to a spons you know when I'm going to have a sense that you're getting better. No, when when you ask me how I'm doing. (54:23) >> I love that. That's a good one. All right. Now, this really is the last question. >> I'll just add one thing. >> Yes. Add one thing >> because I think I would say curiosity. >> Oh, I like that >> in a in a big way. Curiosity. And I because I think that ultimately >> um that's where you that's where we keep evolving. (54:40) >> That's where we keep growing and evolving and not getting into and because we are women have been forced to be adaptable, right? because they were sort of in a patriarchal society and they had to adapt to whatever was said or done. Men now have to sort of learn to that that limitations are opportunities. (54:58) Challenges are opportunities >> not to be afraid of. >> You guys have said so many things I just want to hold on. You're only as sick as your secrets. Challenges are opportunities. Limitations are opportunities. Do we have any other oneliners? Clams. Clams. We can't forget about the clams. And that's the theme of the episode for sure, the clams. (55:17) All right, final question. What makes you both whole? >> Taking a breath. Staying present. >> I love that. Staying present. So hard to do nowadays. What about you? >> Caring about other people >> sort of more than myself. >> I love that too because have you always been that way? or has it been a growth journey? >> Yes, I don't know that. (55:46) He's always been that way. I can answer that for him. How about you? >> What makes me whole is seeing others thrive. >> It really I would say family. Of course, my family makes me whole, too. But I I think about the collective family and seeing others thrive and and do better. >> That really keeps me going. >> That's great. >> But this has been great. (56:10) Thank you both for joining me today. I appreciate it. All right. Well, if you are a mom, a wife, a sister, a colleague, if you have any semblance of a guy in your life, I hope you will listen to this episode and share it with your friends. I feel really passionately as a mom of a 16-year-old, as a wife, and watching, you know, those sort of issues come up within our family, how important it is to have our men healthy, open, able to trust us, and be vulnerable. (56:39) Please share this episode with anyone you love and I look forward to seeing you guys next time. Before you go, remember healing doesn't happen all at once. It happens in moments. If today's episode gave you one of those moments, subscribe and keep learning with me. The next video is right here and it picks up right where this one left