Latest / Bitcoin for Financial Services Podcast / Building Bitcoin Rails For HSAs

Transcript

Building Bitcoin Rails For HSAs · Bitcoin for Financial Services Podcast

• 0:00
  The value prop of our product in putting this together is it's real Bitcoin.
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• 1:26
  Welcome to Bitcoin for Financial Services, the podcast for sound money meets professional
• 1:32
  services. We explore how to build a financial services industry within the principles, values,
• 1:37
  and ethos of Bitcoin. Today, we're joined by John Gordon and Stuart Lackey, co-founders of SoundHSA.
• 1:44
  We'll be exploring sound money, sound hell, and how they're integrating Bitcoin into the
• 1:49
  findings in healthcare industries. Let's get started. Alrighty, welcome back to the Bitcoin
• 1:57
  for Financial Services podcast. Today, we've got a real fun treat. We've got John Gordon and we've
• 2:03
  got Stu or Stuart Lackey. They're both in Nashville together. I'm jealous. They're both
• 2:09
  at the park. And then, of course, Wyatt's at the space. And so I'm the only one that's not in a
• 2:14
  Bitcoin Citadel today. So welcome to everyone. Thanks for having us.
• 2:22
  Absolutely. Well, we've got a lot to talk about. Even as we were just talking through
• 2:28
  kind of outline and everything before we hit record, it came to my head like, man,
• 2:34
  healthcare is one of the top issues that's being discussed in the mainstream media,
• 2:41
  Congress level, all that kind of stuff. At least the last I kind of listened in earlier this week.
• 2:47
  So I'm very excited about this discussion. I think it's a really unique perspective on how,
• 2:54
  you know, something that a normal Bitcoin would be like, hmm, I didn't think about how that ties
• 2:58
  in, but it does. And so John, Stu, why don't you all give us your all's background, give us an
• 3:04
  introduction so that our audience can get to know you a little bit better. Sure, sure. I'll go first.
• 3:09
  But yeah, so I've spent the last 20 plus years launching novel surgical device companies, helping commercialize those opportunities, predominantly the neurosurgery and orthopedic spine space.
• 3:21
  And I've been based in Nashville for most of my working career, which is kind of the healthcare capital of the world, certainly from a hospital and a service standpoint.
• 3:31
  But what I noticed over that time, as we launched those companies, we live in a kind of a fee-for-service market in the U.S. healthcare system.
• 3:40
  And so in 1960, we spent $26 billion as a country on healthcare.
• 3:45
  Today, we spend $5 trillion.
• 3:46
  So the more tests that we run, the more prescription drugs that are ordered, the more implants and surgeries that are performed.
• 3:53
  Hopefully, if they're indicated, that's great.
• 3:55
  But we add more bloat to the system.
• 3:58
  There are a ton of intermediaries that have caused inflationary pressure to the healthcare system. And so most people now who have studied this recognize that it's now 20% of GDP, it's out of control. And the end user, what is called the patient customer, really doesn't know what healthcare costs. I don't know if anybody really does.
• 4:18
  And so we've gone from this back 40, 50 years ago from asking how much is my copay or maybe how much is my deductible, right? It's kind of this ambiguous nature. There's no true marketplace in health. And so I found Bitcoin in 2016 and kind of started my journey and discovery of sound money. And now we're excited to kind of combine that with sound health. So I'll let John talk about his journey.
• 4:44
  Yeah, thanks, Stu.
• 4:45
  And like Stu, I have a background in the healthcare industry, started out my career doing strategy
• 4:50
  consulting for hospitals and health systems across the country, got into the payer space,
• 4:55
  working in a big Medicaid plan, and then moved over to the medical supplies arena around
• 5:01
  COVID time.
• 5:02
  It was an interesting one to be managing gauze products coming out of China when COVID hit.
• 5:07
  And throughout that time, I also completed a master's in health economics and policy
• 5:12
  and was getting married and just started asking the question, what is money in 2020?
• 5:17
  And started to realize that what I'd seen firsthand as broken in the healthcare system
• 5:22
  is saying not having a true marketplace for goods and services and having only now 10%
• 5:28
  of healthcare is self-pay.
• 5:29
  The rest is third-party payment.
• 5:32
  There's a lot of fundamental issues with that setup in the marketplace.
• 5:35
  I started thinking and really orienting myself towards working to integrate Bitcoin into the
• 5:41
  healthcare industry.
• 5:42
  And so that's what I've been focused on the last few years and have recently been helping doctors and dentists and other business owners integrate a Bitcoin strategy, accepting Bitcoin as payment, saving in Bitcoin, marketing to Bitcoiners, and really trying to strengthen the independent practice model out there, particularly direct primary care, something we'll get into a little bit more.
• 6:01
  where the patient actually is the customer of the doctor.
• 6:05
  And we restore that relationship
• 6:06
  and showing that Bitcoin really is a way
• 6:09
  to strengthen that relationship even further
• 6:11
  through that value for value connection.
• 6:13
  So Stu and I connected earlier this year
• 6:16
  and co-founded Sound HSA
• 6:17
  and are super excited to be launching
• 6:19
  what we think is the first Bitcoin
• 6:22
  health savings account product on the market.
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  And Bitcoin, as you all know,
• 6:28
  is the best money humans have ever discovered.
• 6:31
  And we see it as health savings technology and something that can be there to have the
• 6:35
  purchasing power we need as we inevitably age and have different healthcare needs moving forward.
• 6:43
  Yeah, that's fantastic, gentlemen.
• 6:45
  I appreciate the overview there.
• 6:47
  Stu, such a good point about not knowing what healthcare costs.
• 6:53
  Like that blows my mind.
• 6:55
  And I try not to think about it too much, honestly, because I get frustrated and it
• 6:59
  derails the rest of my day.
• 7:00
  But, you know, shameless plug here, I've only recently got a better idea of what healthcare cost is.
• 7:06
  I became a CrowdHealth member about two years ago.
• 7:08
  We got the whole family on it now.
• 7:09
  I love CrowdHealth.
• 7:11
  They're amazing.
• 7:11
  And I think, you know, you guys kind of work in, you know, I would say probably, you know, tangential missions and, you know, specifically, you know, kind of service Bitcoiners.
• 7:19
  I have a big presence in the Bitcoin crowd.
• 7:21
  So I think that's really awesome.
• 7:23
  But I kind of want to get some insight from you guys on what it's been like tackling three different industries.
• 7:32
  So we got the healthcare industry, we got the finance industry, the HSA product, obviously the Bitcoin component.
• 7:40
  And to preface that question more too, I use you guys as a gamble all the time.
• 7:45
  Something I talk about very frequently is Bitcoin financial services, most exciting industry to be in
• 7:51
  because you have these existing Tradify products that just need to be applied to Bitcoin.
• 7:56
  And you guys are specifically going after that HSA product.
• 7:59
  So I think that's very fascinating and a great case study, I think, for our audience.
• 8:04
  So why don't you give us some insight on what it's like tackling three industries at one time?
• 8:09
  Well, I can maybe speak to the HSA piece a little bit and why this product needs to exist
• 8:15
  and why it'll be important for, we hope, millions of people.
• 8:19
  So the HSA itself, the health savings account was instantiated in 2003.
• 8:23
  And it was kind of grandfathered in with a lot of the IRA legislation at that time.
• 8:28
  And so most people, as we talk to Bitcoiners, most people don't know much about the HSA or how it works.
• 8:34
  Right. And so we have done a lot of educating around HSAs.
• 8:38
  The Bitcoin piece we love, obviously, it's novel.
• 8:41
  But really, one of the real opportunities is to educate around how to maximize the health savings account.
• 8:46
  Currently, there's about 40 million HSA accounts in America and about 150, 160 billion in assets under management. And what most people do is they take the tax treatment, if they have that through their employer, and then they spend out of it as soon as they save.
• 9:03
  So most people, for whatever reason, whether they're not in a position to or just don't understand the economics, have chosen not to save and really leverage the triple tax advantage nature of the account.
• 9:15
  So it's either tax free money going in or if you open an HSA on the open market, it's tax deductible. The growth, whether it's in equities or in case with us with Bitcoin, grows tax free.
• 9:32
  And then you can spend it through the life of the account on health goods and services with no tax. The other real cool thing is at age 65, you guys know this, age 65, the HSA turns into ostensibly a traditional IRA.
• 9:46
  and so but without a lot of the the challenges of like mandatory withdrawals after a certain age
• 9:52
  the HSA doesn't carry that so there's some really cool things that the HSA offers and so again John
• 9:57
  made the point we think Bitcoin is uniquely suited to be married to this product at least in some way
• 10:04
  shape or form and so that's why one of the reasons why we are so passionate about the product and why
• 10:09
  we stood the company on. In terms of Bitcoin, a lot of folks are hesitant to maybe spend it
• 10:17
  because of the capital gains tax. Well, here's a really unique tax structure in America where
• 10:23
  you don't have to worry about capital gains tax. And we can actually spur on a circular economy
• 10:28
  in health using Bitcoin over time. And particularly some of the policy updates that were incorporating
• 10:35
  the big, beautiful bill expands who's eligible for a health savings account. So as it stands,
• 10:41
  you need a high deductible health plan to continue to contribute to your HSA, but you can be eligible
• 10:47
  with a bronze or catastrophic plan on the marketplace, which tend to have the lowest
• 10:50
  premiums for the month. And it's interesting because the HSA market is split. It's 60%.
• 10:57
  HSAs are garnered through employment. 40% are individual open market HSAs. So it's really have
• 11:05
  this approach that employers are a big piece of it, but also individuals. It's something that you
• 11:09
  can bring with you beyond your relationship with your employer and beyond the year. People get
• 11:14
  confused with FSAs, which are flexible spending accounts. Those are use it or lose it offered by
• 11:19
  the employee or offered by the employer, excuse me. With HSAs, you bring it with you, as Stu
• 11:24
  mentioned, and you can hold on to those receipts and reimburse yourself into the future for
• 11:28
  whatever healthcare needs you have, and particularly now direct primary care,
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  or you have a relationship with your doctor, say a $100 monthly membership fee to have a provider
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  that gets to actually know you and work with you and improve your health,
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  that spend will be eligible within the HSA, which previously it was not because it was considered
• 11:51
  alternative coverage. So these are some of the movements that were already happening on Capitol
• 11:56
  Hill with the big, beautiful bill. And we think the HSA is a structure that's going to continue to
• 12:01
  grow in its usefulness and utilization and increasing balance in those accounts for savings
• 12:08
  where the government is running out of money in Medicare to actually pay for our healthcare in
• 12:14
  the future 30, 40 years from now. I highly doubt that it'll be there around for us. So by stacking
• 12:19
  some stats today, we believe that that'll be there to purchase directly whatever healthcare
• 12:26
  services you need in the future.
• 12:30
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• 12:33
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• 12:36
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• 12:52
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• 12:58
  I love it.
• 12:59
  I mean, Wyatt and I both speak with a lot of business owners and, and obviously our
• 13:03
  audience is I would say mostly advisors but there are some business owners that also listen in I just be curious you know I was listening to a podcast more of a political podcast earlier in the week and it was speaking about how Obamacare you know while maybe it had good intentions it ended up bankrupting a lot of small business owners because it didn do what it was intended to do in terms of bring down the cost of health insurance for employers and for employees
• 13:32
  and it's really interesting like as you scale up a business and you end up needing to hire
• 13:37
  people and not only just any people you want to hire the best people you and you you have to have
• 13:42
  this conversation with them about benefits right and so i'd be curious to get your all's you know
• 13:48
  thoughts on how you see employers fitting into this especially you know business owners that
• 13:54
  are bitcoiners they're looking to incorporate bitcoin into their business and then also extend
• 14:00
  that out to the benefits that they offer to their employees? The employer piece, as John mentioned,
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  there's a huge part of the market. 60% of the market is tied to employers. And we are certainly
• 14:13
  looking at that as a part of our roadmap as we get into next year. Our first entree is offering
• 14:19
  this as truly as an open market, self-directed product. But the employer piece is huge. There's
• 14:25
  a lot of ways that employers now leverage HSAs. Many employers are now starting to offer matches,
• 14:33
  right? Where they're, you know, potentially they can fund the entire contribution maximum
• 14:39
  for the account, which is pretty interesting. I've worked for companies personally that have
• 14:43
  offered a match, a percentage of the total contribution limit. And it's nice, right? So
• 14:48
  you can really accelerate your savings and potentially the growth. We think over time,
• 14:54
  is if you look at the benefits stack, the HSA product, you can offer as many HSAs technically
• 15:01
  as you want to an employer benefit stack. But often the HSA is kind of a throwaway
• 15:06
  conversation, right? It's one piece that is offered as a part of that. And so we want to
• 15:13
  come in as a differentiated product, either alongside or as the sole HSA provider. And so
• 15:18
  we've certainly started to talk to companies about that. As we all know, there's a litany of
• 15:24
  companies that have Bitcoin on their balance sheet now. And so we're approaching that marketplace as
• 15:31
  we get into this employer conversation. So I don't know if you want to add anything.
• 15:34
  Yeah. Yeah. So companies over 50 have to provide health insurance as a benefit to their employees.
• 15:41
  And one of the ways that, as you mentioned, Jordan, the cost of healthcare continues to rise.
• 15:46
  It's outpacing inflation. One of the ways that employers can try to lower their cost is by
• 15:52
  actually self-insuring rather than using a third-party insurer, which really does align
• 15:57
  incentives because they want their employees to be healthy. The less health care utilization they
• 16:00
  have, the less they'll pay out. And they can also kind of steer their people towards lower cost
• 16:08
  plans, which tend to be high deductible plans paired with HSAs. And they can contribute directly
• 16:13
  to their employees' HSA, which often happens.
• 16:18
  So the individual limit this year, and now actually going into 2026,
• 16:25
  it'll be around $4,500 a year is the max for an individual to contribute,
• 16:30
  $8,750 for a family, if you have family coverage.
• 16:34
  Employees could contribute up to the max if they wanted to.
• 16:37
  And we think especially for Bitcoin companies or those that want to attract talent
• 16:41
  as that becomes more and more difficult,
• 16:43
  The HSA can be used pretty strategically to put additional tax-advantaged dollars and eventually Bitcoin, sats, into their employees' pockets.
• 16:53
  So there's a lot of flexibility with the HSA and the whole arena of health plan design and navigating the broker spaces can be very challenging for companies, especially for startups.
• 17:07
  They're seeing costs continue to rise.
• 17:09
  So I think these types of alternatives are really important to know that are out there. And then when it comes to the marketplace, you're absolutely right that changes to subsidies in the ACA marketplace have been all over the headlines that led to over a 30-day shutdown in the government due to kind of fighting over these billions of dollars of subsidies, which end to the end user makes health insurance plans in the marketplace be more expensive.
• 17:36
  but actually one of the bills they floated and it was actually shot down last voted just it didn't
• 17:42
  get enough votes but something that's was was proposed by republicans was instead of the
• 17:47
  subsidies going essentially to the health insurers but lowering the cost of the individual it would
• 17:52
  be as a health savings account contribution to the individual who's signing up for the insurance plan
• 17:57
  so again there the hsa is a pretty big part of the conversation we'd say in trying to be flexible and
• 18:03
  get at some of the these trends of rising costs in healthcare but ultimately we feel
• 18:09
  in the system is pretty broken and it's up to the individual to find the best solution for them and
• 18:14
  you know for you and your family to ultimately build your own nest egg your own savings
• 18:19
  we believe in bitcoin is the best way to do that for that future uncertainty
• 18:23
  when a health event might happen but ultimately knowing okay i have some
• 18:28
  set set aside that i know when i spend i'm not going to get taxed on but that i can get the
• 18:33
  services me and my family needs. That's tremendous insight, gentlemen. I appreciate that. And,
• 18:40
  you know, I was wondering if you can maybe kind of expand on like your go-to-market strategy and
• 18:46
  kind of how you're communicating the value proposition here. I think you kind of touched
• 18:50
  on it some, but I think specifically when people are thinking about starting new Bitcoin businesses
• 18:55
  or integrating Bitcoin into their business, like it's, you have to be strategic about it and kind
• 19:02
  of understand like who you're talking to. And a lot of times, you know, kind of devolves into like
• 19:06
  this macro conversation, which may or may not be, you know, appropriate. So, you know, one of the
• 19:11
  things I talk about with my clients a lot, so like around, you know, social security and when we want
• 19:15
  to take that. And then I have to like, get into this conversation on unfunded liabilities and
• 19:20
  what are the odds you actually even get this, you know, if you do, is it going to be fake printed
• 19:26
  money? And, you know, you brought up, you know, Medicaid and the unfunded liabilities there. So
• 19:30
  So how do you guys kind of approach it?
• 19:31
  Are you kind of top level macro view?
• 19:33
  Are you kind of more on the holistic care front?
• 19:36
  And what kind of pitfalls or success have you guys had in going to market?
• 19:42
  Yeah, I'll take that.
• 19:44
  I mean, as I think we may have mentioned in the beginning, we're in our beta launch right now.
• 19:50
  So we're testing the product.
• 19:52
  And so we're taking a very grassroots approach to start.
• 19:56
  And we're approaching the Bitcoin community.
• 19:58
  part of what we've been working on this entire year is building a wait list. And so we've built
• 20:03
  some other functionality. You can download the Sound HSA app right now on iOS or Android,
• 20:08
  and it's essentially an incentive platform. So you get Satoshi's for taking steps. And so we've
• 20:15
  done global challenges where we've had over, I think, 3,000 downloads now of the app and
• 20:19
  massive participation. But from that, we've built an HSA wait list, predominantly of Bitcoiners.
• 20:25
  So there's a huge subset of the community that is HSA eligible, and they either have an HSA and they want to transfer a portion of it to sound, or they're going to open up maybe their first HSA ever.
• 20:39
  And again, in terms of the demographic, the crossover is very similar.
• 20:44
  I think it's safe to say that it's predominantly men at this point who are Bitcoiners, at least through this point in the adoption process.
• 20:51
  And so we're approaching that younger demographic, male and female, to open up HSA accounts with us, either via transfer or brand new account creation.
• 21:02
  And so we've built a platform, guys, that we believe offers a great user experience.
• 21:08
  I think we all can appreciate how that has evolved in our space, in the Bitcoin space over time.
• 21:14
  It was really clunky when I first discovered Bitcoin back in 2016.
• 21:17
  It certainly has improved.
• 21:19
  and we've built tooling into the platform that enables,
• 21:23
  as far as self-directed defined contribution accounts go,
• 21:26
  we think this is probably the best that's going to be out there.
• 21:30
  And so we've looked for ways to automate that.
• 21:32
  We think Bitcoiners will appreciate that.
• 21:34
  Obviously, a younger demographic will absolutely demand that
• 21:37
  with a high quality experience as they engage with the platform.
• 21:42
  So that's one piece of it.
• 21:45
  Yeah.
• 21:46
  Yeah.
• 21:46
  Our move to earn was a huge component this year.
• 21:48
  We launched at Bitcoin Vegas, so we're offering sats for steps.
• 21:52
  And we think this education piece of getting some sats in your hands, learning about Bitcoin
• 21:56
  is a huge front runner and understanding of, okay, now I'm going to want to save in Bitcoin
• 22:02
  further down the road.
• 22:03
  So we have some exciting updates on mobile app side.
• 22:07
  It's all Noster integrated as well.
• 22:09
  So you have your own identity that in your public private key pair, just like Bitcoin,
• 22:13
  but for your identity and communication.
• 22:15
  So actually your step data you can save to Nostra.
• 22:18
  We're integrating a Lightning app in our next release using the Breeze SDK.
• 22:23
  So folks will have a self-custodial Lightning wallet.
• 22:26
  And this is all outside the HSA structure.
• 22:28
  But just to learn about Bitcoin, receive some sats, maybe spend it locally now that Square's rolled out payments for more and more merchants.
• 22:35
  Where can I spend Bitcoin? Getting experience with it.
• 22:38
  And then that's really our driver for gaining awareness, letting people learn about what we're doing.
• 22:45
  And then, and that's open globally.
• 22:47
  We had many people download the app all over the world, which is really exciting and fun
• 22:51
  to have people hitting their step goals all over from Nigeria and Switzerland to Canada
• 22:56
  and US.
• 22:57
  So we're going to continue to roll out some of those challenges.
• 23:00
  That product's also available for employers.
• 23:03
  We've been piloting with a doctor in Houston for his employees as well.
• 23:07
  So we see that as a tool on the wellness side that companies can use.
• 23:11
  And then for the HSA itself, as Stu mentioned, we're rolling out for the individual market here over the coming weeks and months. We'll start with the beta and our waitlist and then moving towards kind of a more public launch later into Q1.
• 23:26
  But we're really excited about who we're partnering with and working with on this product as the HSA is an IRS regulated product.
• 23:36
  And we're not a trust company ourselves.
• 23:38
  We need to find great trust companies out there to work with.
• 23:41
  And we're working with Horizon Trust out of New Mexico and Digital Trust out of Nevada.
• 23:49
  Ultimately, the value prop of our product in putting this together is it's real Bitcoin.
• 23:53
  Because right now you could open up an HSA and get some proxy exposure via the ETFs, but our product is the only one where you can have real Bitcoin in your account. And ultimately we're using BitGo on the backend and BitGo really exciting news around their OCC charter. So institutional grade security, multi-sig, cold storage of the Bitcoin at the individual user level.
• 24:14
  And so Horizon has a lot of experience already administering HSAs, but we're building the front end, the user experience to try to automate that process.
• 24:24
  As you mentioned, it can be a very form driven process.
• 24:26
  If you've ever opened up a self-directed instrument and some of you all have to say the least on maybe helping your clients open up these accounts.
• 24:33
  So we're trying to modernize that through through our user onboarding experience.
• 24:39
  And so we're really excited about that differentiation. Uploading receipts is a really important part of the platform. So we're starting more on the web and then we'll continue to migrate more and more features onto mobile. So you can check your balance on mobile, maybe upload receipts for healthcare eligible spend. And you're building up a bit of that piggy bank that you can draw from over time, right, as needed.
• 25:02
  So you can withdraw directly. But of course, as Stu mentioned, and given the contribution limits on the accounts, really the best usage of the HSA is in the NAA, the savings component. We, of course, understand people need to spend out of these accounts as well. Certain things come up. But if it's viewed in that perspective and really as Bitcoin is, when you're hodling for at least four years, you're increasing your purchasing power over the 16-year history of Bitcoin.
• 25:28
  and we're doing a lot of education here at this intersection of bitcoin and health
• 25:32
  and so it's interesting for the bitcoin audience that we expect and we see as our first
• 25:37
  customers and users of the product they're already pretty savvy in bitcoin you know we're getting
• 25:42
  them into the hsa but for this broader health care market as you mentioned there's 40 million
• 25:46
  accounts uh there's a huge opportunity to bring people into bitcoin from this legacy health care
• 25:54
  system. And so that's even the bigger opportunity for us and what we're excited about and kind of
• 25:59
  meeting the market where it is and trying to orange pill in this way.
• 26:04
  Yeah, that's so cool. I love what you're saying there, John, about it, you know, being real Bitcoin.
• 26:08
  And I think it so crucially important that entrepreneurs in this space build products support real Bitcoin as opposed to paper Bitcoin So tip of the cap to you guys on that You absolutely right about the self accounts It could be a huge pain in the ass to get those types of accounts set up
• 26:25
  But I think especially important with Bitcoiners and getting exposure to bare assets
• 26:30
  about Bitcoin, you got to work with Unchained.
• 26:32
  They've done a phenomenal job in making that process easy for financial
• 26:36
  professionals to utilize.
• 26:38
  And then lastly, too, on the
• 26:42
  stats for for step challenges i think that's just like a phenomenal way to to get bitcoins in the
• 26:48
  hands of people getting them moving and healthy and that's you know crucial component for for
• 26:52
  people getting comfortable with bitcoin you guys were active participant in the big one for
• 26:56
  financial services summit uh we got a lot of folks out in the rocky mountains for some fresh air so
• 27:01
  do you just want to take this opportunity to give us uh some flowers on how great of an event that
• 27:05
  was phenomenal event yeah it was awesome uh we loved it and it was fun to have uh yeah the hike
• 27:11
  activation as part of the conference. It's a lot of sitting. So to get outside, get some fresh air
• 27:15
  in Colorado and yeah, really neat. Met some amazing folks. Some of the folks we met there are
• 27:20
  on the beta list. They want to use the product. They want to help their clients learn about it
• 27:24
  and get into the Sound HSA. So it's an awesome event. Look forward to participating again
• 27:29
  next year. And I think especially as it comes to emerging products in Bitcoin and really
• 27:34
  understanding Bitcoin as this bridging the gap for financial professionals is really important.
• 27:40
  So I think the work you guys are doing is great and utilizing the space in Denver.
• 27:45
  Looking forward to seeing it.
• 27:46
  So why you said you might tease a little bit of a different format, maybe some rapid fire
• 27:51
  questions, shorter presentations.
• 27:54
  I think anything to spice it up and keep people engaged, interested, excited is important.
• 28:01
  But having those in-person connections, nothing beats that.
• 28:05
  I think it's great that we can stay connected online and through our different Bitcoin citadels.
• 28:09
  but bringing people together is super important.
• 28:12
  So it's awesome that you guys are looking to put that together again for next year.
• 28:17
  Yeah, thank you, John.
• 28:18
  I appreciate that.
• 28:19
  It was a pleasure having you.
• 28:23
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• 28:25
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• 28:29
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• 29:01
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• 29:04
  I honestly want to potentially take the conversation to, you know, there's these rabbit holes, right, that you go down as a Bitcoiner.
• 29:15
  I know, Stu, I recall walking around, I can't remember what university, it was in Dallas.
• 29:22
  Anyways, it was at one of the mining conferences and we were on a Twitter space and you were on
• 29:27
  and you were kind of going down the rabbit hole of Bitcoin, how it fits into health and how a lot
• 29:34
  of Bitcoiners get down the path of like, okay, the money's broken. What else is broken? And I think
• 29:42
  for a lot of us. I talk with a lot of newer Bitcoiners like 2020, 2021 entrants, and it's
• 29:48
  like COVID kind of really shined the light on just brokenness across the board. But maybe speak about
• 29:56
  how you all view, I know what you all are terming kind of sound health and how that fits into,
• 30:04
  I guess, in the current stage of Bitcoiners life and how they need to focus on that. But then
• 30:09
  broadly, we could even broaden it out to like a lot of the healthcare is like sick care, right?
• 30:16
  It's just, it's not preventative and it's just like there's an emergency, we've got to act
• 30:21
  instead of how can we encourage people to be healthy just for health's sake and actually
• 30:28
  prevent a lot of this, a lot of the bad stuff that they end up dealing with.
• 30:33
  Really a few good questions there. And if you look at the, again, the history of the healthcare
• 30:38
  system in the U.S. I mean, there was a time when doctors made house calls and individuals paid for,
• 30:44
  you know, standard health needs with their doctor out of pocket. And you had maybe a major medical
• 30:50
  or catastrophic policy of some sort that would cover, you know, cover you and your family when
• 30:55
  something big happened. Right. And again, there's some great material out there. We have a lot of it
• 31:00
  on our website as we educate people about health care and why HSAs are so important. But over time,
• 31:05
  And again, with that bloat of spend that's increased from the $23 billion that we spent on health care in 1960 to the $5 trillion now, one of the big reasons that that happened was CMS came into law in the early 60s.
• 31:22
  And so if you look at the transference of who pays for health care, and there's some great infographics out there that show, you know, there's a lion's share of the percentage for everyday health services was paid for out of pocket in 1960.
• 31:35
  And then as that infographic goes live and evolves up to current day, you see, okay, we went from 23 billion to 5 trillion.
• 31:42
  And the individual now pays for just a little bit.
• 31:45
  And while we've done a lot of good for, you know, through Medicare and Medicaid and those services, this is not a political discussion or a statement.
• 31:51
  It's like, the fact is, we have placed the end consumer further away from the cost of care.
• 31:59
  And when you do that, we don't do that in any other marketplace that I can think of in the U.S., but we do it in health care.
• 32:05
  That is the number one reason we believe that why healthcare has grown in cost. Yes, people are getting older. Yes, people are living longer. Yes, we've innovated. We do the best research in the world, right? We have new pharmaceuticals and new medical device technologies that have enabled people to recover and live longer. That's all true and that's great and that needs to continue.
• 32:27
  but the reality is we spend way too much. And by the way, we have some of the poorest outcomes in
• 32:34
  the developed world for as much as we spend. What really attracted me when I got into Bitcoin,
• 32:39
  first of all, I noticed two things when I'd walk into the conference rooms, okay? Everyone was
• 32:44
  really intelligent, right? And I'd worked with neurosurgeons and orthospine surgeons like,
• 32:49
  in the operating suite with our teams, making sure they had great outcomes in surgery.
• 32:53
  but I noticed just the intellect that was in this industry, was in the Bitcoin industry.
• 32:59
  And I noticed something else, that most Bitcoiners were metabolically conscious. So what I mean by
• 33:04
  that, they were mindful of their wellness. So this concept of low time preference that we all know,
• 33:10
  I think is also, it plays into health as well. Thinking further out than the instant gratification
• 33:17
  of eating the next meal and indulging or overindulgence and just thinking about your
• 33:24
  family from a longer time horizon. And so we talk about sound money, sound health.
• 33:29
  We think that there's a lot of crossover in that ethos. And John has lived that out with his own
• 33:34
  personal journey. So I'm sure he could probably add to that. Yeah. Yeah. He said it really nicely,
• 33:39
  Stu. And I think for anyone going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole and you start to question
• 33:43
  some of your own decisions and opportunity costs and what you're spending on and how
• 33:47
  your lifestyle looks day to day and really optimizing for your best health moving forward.
• 33:53
  You see folks and you look around the room at the Bitcoin conferences and like, oh, people are,
• 33:57
  we're taking care of ourselves. We care about the food that we're eating. It's real food. It's not
• 34:01
  fiat food. We're buying it with Bitcoin from our local rancher. All of these themes in Bitcoin
• 34:06
  that we've seen really, it plays out as you start to take more personal responsibility for
• 34:13
  for your health. And so for me, yoga was a big piece of my journey going down when I was studying
• 34:20
  Bitcoin and living in Bali for a couple of months doing the over teacher training,
• 34:24
  really tuning into my own breath, my own health and finding ways to heal that way. No one can stop
• 34:30
  you from doing that. I'm going inwards and focusing on just your breath and how are you
• 34:34
  moving throughout the day. And as I started connecting more and more with Bitcoiners,
• 34:39
  whether that was in El Salvador or in Costa Rica or in South Africa or Argentina.
• 34:44
  It's amazing how that Bitcoin ethos really connects folks globally and steers you towards
• 34:51
  really your highest path and fulfilling that personally and for your family.
• 34:56
  So I think by saving a little bit in Bitcoin and here in the US, we have the advantage now
• 35:01
  of having a triple tax advantage structure.
• 35:03
  But even if not, say you want to start putting inside some stats in a separate wallet for
• 35:08
  yourself that's in self-custody, we can enable that now through a mobile app. And so we're excited
• 35:14
  about other folks around the world that are just wanting to save some stats. And as Stu mentioned,
• 35:20
  the outcomes are very poor here in the US and we're the highest cost. So healthcare actually
• 35:24
  isn't as expensive in other places around the world. We don't have such perverse market incentives.
• 35:30
  There tends to be also a lot of government involvement in some places, but generally you
• 35:35
  can go and find a doctor direct and pay for much less for that service than you might pay here.
• 35:42
  So there's a lot of opportunities for education. And I think on the HSA, what's also interesting
• 35:47
  is you can spend out of it and support those types of habits, more of the preventative.
• 35:51
  Even now you can spend your HSA, while it's eligible, of course, at a hospital, a doctor's
• 35:56
  office, more veering towards the wellness side, whether it's blue light blockers or your beef,
• 36:02
  even. These are potentially eligible expenses on your HSA. Some of them might require what's
• 36:08
  called a letter of medical necessity from a doctor. But I think I know plenty of Bitcoin
• 36:12
  doctors who will probably be willing to write you a letter to eat your beef and health heal
• 36:17
  some of your maybe internal challenges from eating fiat food over time. So yeah, I think
• 36:24
  the money is broken and that's why healthcare is broken. A lot of downstream industries,
• 36:28
  in particular, the food, 60% of food being ultra processed that US consumers are eating.
• 36:34
  And that's driving the six in 10 individuals having a chronic condition, 80% being metabolically
• 36:39
  unhealthy, and one in three Americans in medical debt. So this healthcare really is something that
• 36:45
  I think Bitcoiners also shouldn't be ignoring. It makes sense that Bitcoin starts in financial
• 36:50
  services, in mining, the connection to energy, of course, but healthcare is 20% of the economy.
• 36:56
  And a quarter of that spend a year is administrative. Half of that is waste. Six to 10% of every transaction goes to a middleman. So there's so many middlemen all the way down the stack in healthcare that Bitcoin has an opportunity to disrupt. And so we're excited to be a part of that movement of really trying to decentralize healthcare and get more folks, particularly those that have business models that align with Bitcoin, where you're going direct to consumer and you're not relying on third party payment.
• 37:24
  You can integrate Bitcoin payments today and it isn't just a philosophical decision. You're going to save several percent in those transaction fees on a potentially very low margin business. It's difficult, right, to run, especially as you scale up and you have bigger and bigger health care systems, particularly here in Nashville and making those treasury decisions.
• 37:48
  That was a big theme, of course, for Bitcoin Financial Service Summit around treasury companies.
• 37:53
  But ultimately, it's companies that have bigger balance sheets.
• 37:56
  Many of these are nonprofit institutions as well.
• 37:59
  They really would be doing a public benefit by at least buying some Bitcoin and strengthening that institution.
• 38:05
  So there's a lot of aspects and ways that I think for the individual and for the company to think about bringing Bitcoin into healthcare.
• 38:13
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• 38:21
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• 38:25
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• 38:42
  satoshipacioli.com. Well, Stu, for one, I'm stoked to hear that Bitcoiners are smarter than doctors.
• 38:51
  So that made my day. Generally speaking.
• 38:57
  But you guys are absolutely like spot on. It's just like, yeah, I've tried to be a healthy person,
• 39:03
  health conscious, like all that stuff, but definitely way more after getting to Bitcoin.
• 39:07
  and some of like these health rabbit holes
• 39:08
  have been like some of my biggest endeavors,
• 39:11
  like, you know, outside of Bitcoin,
• 39:13
  you know, whether it's like fluorescent lights,
• 39:15
  like frying my eyeballs or, you know,
• 39:17
  seed oils, public enemy number two,
• 39:19
  you know, after fiat money.
• 39:21
  So when you guys like go to you know I don know I not sure what the like healthcare equivalent is We just call them like TradFi or like Normies But when you go to like the standard you know healthcare providers and you start talking about you know SoundHealth and how you guys are integrating Bitcoin in your business and how Bitcoin is aligned with you know healthy lifestyle
• 39:39
  Do they look at you like you're crazy or are you starting to get like some positive reception?
• 39:44
  Because at least from the outside looking in, it feels like there's so many blinders in the healthcare industry where they just like miss things that seem fairly obvious to an outsider.
• 39:54
  Yeah, I guess the cheat code to that is, you know, there's a growing number of Bitcoin companies in the U.S. that have chosen to add Bitcoin to their balance sheet.
• 40:03
  And that's low hanging fruit for us, right? Someone in that company high up leadership, the board understands the power of Bitcoin as a savings technology for the company. So, you know, we look at that as an opportunity to get into this discussion of the implications of Bitcoin and health broadly.
• 40:23
  And I think something else that they'll find too, and kind of is consistent with what we've
• 40:28
  been talking about in the last few minutes is, you know, one of the big differentiations
• 40:32
  of our platforms is, yes, we have a walled garden regulated HSA product and it's awesome.
• 40:38
  And the user experience will be great, but we're really a health and wellness platform
• 40:43
  as well.
• 40:43
  And no other HSA company can offer that.
• 40:46
  Fidelity is not going to do that.
• 40:47
  Optin is not going to do that, like through their HSA product, right?
• 40:50
  So it was really important to us to like, okay, we can't just talk about the connection of sound
• 40:54
  health and sound money. We got to live and breathe that. And so the move to earn piece,
• 40:59
  there'll be some other enhancements and innovation that'll come onto the platform as we move forward
• 41:04
  that we're really excited about. But we really believe that this can be one platform that can
• 41:09
  satisfy this move towards decentralized sovereign health and wellness. And employers,
• 41:15
  Bitcoin employers
• 41:17
  and even
• 41:19
  companies that don't. They're looking
• 41:21
  for ways in the conversations we
• 41:23
  have, they're looking for ways to either
• 41:25
  start a wellness initiative
• 41:27
  or enhance
• 41:29
  what they currently do.
• 41:31
  They may offer a gym membership
• 41:33
  reimbursement as a health
• 41:35
  benefit as a company. Well, we think
• 41:37
  we have something that's really compelling
• 41:39
  compared to that. And so we'll continue
• 41:41
  to innovate in that way to be attractive
• 41:43
  to employees.
• 41:44
  so yeah and i would add to that widen your question as we've gone to a couple of healthcare
• 41:49
  conferences and interacted with folks that are advisors and employer benefit space uh whether
• 41:55
  that's at health rosetta or through free market medical association these organizations were a
• 41:59
  part of and participating in and as we present bitcoin and talk about what we're what we're
• 42:04
  bringing we don't get looks of oh you're crazy it's like oh i just hadn't thought about that
• 42:08
  that makes sense like let's talk about it we want to learn and hear more about how bitcoin works so
• 42:13
  I think bringing some of that Bitcoin 101 to that audience is important.
• 42:17
  And they're open to learning.
• 42:18
  And we're approaching now 17 years of Bitcoin being around.
• 42:20
  And at this point, people have obviously had plenty of exposure, at least through headlines.
• 42:25
  And it's only so long that you can continue to ignore it.
• 42:28
  And we're now offering, we think, a pretty streamlined way of learning about Bitcoin,
• 42:33
  getting into Bitcoin, maybe for those that still think Bitcoin is risky.
• 42:37
  Whereas we have a conviction and realize not thinking Bitcoin is risky.
• 42:40
  if you think Bitcoin is risky.
• 42:42
  Well, here's a way that you don't have to pay taxes
• 42:44
  on the Bitcoin performance and what's happening here.
• 42:48
  And maybe your balance is a little lower, right?
• 42:50
  The average HSA balance in general is about $5,000.
• 42:53
  The average invested HSA balance is $20,000 to $30,000.
• 42:58
  But over less than half, about $70 to $75 billion
• 43:03
  out of the $160 billion that is held in HSAs
• 43:06
  is actually invested in stocks or other assets.
• 43:10
  Most of that is sitting in cash, right? So that's a melting ice cloud, folks, where, oh, I think I'm saving my HSA, I'm doing the right thing. But ultimately, if the government, as they're going to continue and the Fed continues to print more money, that savings, that purchasing power will continue to debase over time, right? It's just math.
• 43:27
  As you understand Bitcoin, you realize, oh, hey, maybe I'm not really optimizing my HSAs as well as I could or my whole health care stack as a whole and how I'm approaching the market and taking care of ourselves.
• 43:38
  But, yeah, I think definitely less crazy looks and more opportunities, we think, in 2026 to bring those different folks together and show because there are many doctors out there.
• 43:49
  And actually another something else that we're bringing out is a nonprofit led by Dr. Mark Stephanie out of Minnesota that we're supporting the Bitcoin Physicians Network. So really through this network, we believe it's a 501c6 out of Minnesota being a platform for doctors, physicians to connect Bitcoin docs, whether you have your own practice or your Bitcoin doc working in a bigger system to network with one another, educate and advocate for more Bitcoin adoption in health care.
• 44:16
  We think we're coming out with a map.
• 44:20
  So kind of like beef maps, you can locate your local rancher.
• 44:24
  Where can I find my Bitcoin doctor?
• 44:26
  So providing more of those types of services and just being out there for people to see that it's a growing movement, whether it's in dentistry or direct primary care, specialty care, surgery, moving more and more of these businesses with merchant adoption onto Bitcoin.
• 44:41
  and then ultimately coming with the consumer of,
• 44:44
  hey, I have Bitcoin saved to spend for whatever I need.
• 44:46
  Yeah, the Bitcoin Physicians Network
• 44:49
  will be for physicians and other healthcare folks as well
• 44:53
  as that's built out.
• 44:55
  You have to understand too,
• 44:57
  there's a big percentage of the healthcare industry,
• 44:59
  those that work in the industry as providers or support,
• 45:02
  they're burnt out.
• 45:04
  They're looking for, they know the system is broken.
• 45:06
  And we hope that this nonprofit,
• 45:09
  physician led, right?
• 45:11
  will be a resource in a number of ways for physicians and advanced practitioners to learn
• 45:19
  about Bitcoin. Maybe if they've hung their own shingle, they've opened their own practice. Maybe
• 45:23
  there's treasury management resources there, all kinds of things. And there are a large number of
• 45:30
  physicians that hold Bitcoin. You may not know it, but there are. And so we felt it was the time to
• 45:36
  launch something like that to really coalesce that segment of the market.
• 45:41
  So no, I love it.
• 45:43
  And I want to pivot, you know, we've got a few minutes left.
• 45:46
  I want to talk about what does the launch look like?
• 45:49
  And a couple of specific questions that come to mind that, you know, Bitcoiners, I'd be
• 45:55
  remiss if I didn't ask, right?
• 45:56
  Just because they're very, they're very in the weeds type of people.
• 45:59
  So two questions. First one would be, can you contribute Bitcoin in or do you have to contribute dollars in and convert it once it's inside? And then the second question is maybe touch a little bit more on the back end custody.
• 46:17
  I know that's a question that Wyatt and I get all the time from Bitcoiners.
• 46:21
  It's like, okay, I'm going to look into doing this product, be it a loan or whatever it might be, right?
• 46:26
  Where I'm having to post Bitcoin out of my cold storage and potentially bring in a trust, some kind of trust inside of that in order to be more efficient from a tax standpoint or cap gains, whatever it looks like.
• 46:41
  So maybe touch on that and then also just, yeah, let us know what is the launch looking like?
• 46:47
  for 2026. I can speak to kind of the cash in, Bitcoin in question. So under current law,
• 46:55
  you can only fund the account with cash, right? So you fund your account with cash, you buy Bitcoin
• 46:59
  within the account, and then you have to spend cash out. We hope over time that we can be the
• 47:05
  first product to actually enable Bitcoin spend directly out of the account, right? Because if
• 47:12
  think about it, there's never been a commodity or an asset, an equity that you could take to a
• 47:17
  provider that they would accept as payment. So it's really kind of been a non-starter.
• 47:21
  But as the network of physicians and providers expands that accept Bitcoin, we think there's
• 47:29
  going to be an opportunity where over time, our customers can spend directly out of the account
• 47:34
  in Bitcoin. But right now, it's cash in by Bitcoin, sell your Bitcoin, cash out to reimburse
• 47:41
  your expense. But if you want to speak to kind of the custody arrangement.
• 47:46
  Yeah. And then when you direct the investment over into Bitcoin, our partner Digital Trust,
• 47:52
  they're actually the company behind Bitcoin IRA.com that's been on the market for almost a decade.
• 47:57
  Many may be familiar with that brand. And so they're already very familiar and have
• 48:02
  existing relationship as well with BitGo, as I mentioned, for where the Bitcoin is
• 48:07
  being custody. And so BitGo has multi-state cold storage set up at an individual user level. So it's
• 48:16
  a sub-account kind of set up technically when you look at the structure of how HSAs are structured,
• 48:22
  but it's through Horizon Trust and Digital Trust ultimately and having those rails set up
• 48:26
  that can streamline our process of individuals getting Bitcoin within the HSA. So as Stu mentioned,
• 48:32
  fiat in, buy some Bitcoin and HODL. We think spending out of it in Bitcoin eventually will
• 48:38
  really help spur this circular economy in healthcare. That'll continue to get built out
• 48:43
  over time. Yeah, we're excited to come to market with that setup and feel free to join the waitlist.
• 48:50
  We'll be working through the waitlist here in January and gearing up for a bigger public launch
• 48:55
  as we continue to test the rails and our front-end product. So we're really excited about
• 49:00
  this opportunity standing this up this year and seeing where it can grow into the future.
• 49:05
  As we mentioned, it's a big marketplace and it's going to be a matter of kind of demonstrating
• 49:10
  the value as well.
• 49:11
  As you mentioned, your customers, your clients, the CFA, CPAs are asking the right questions.
• 49:16
  It's really important to know that this is real Bitcoin, where it's sitting and what
• 49:21
  the arrangement is moving forward.
• 49:24
  And so we'd love to work with more CFAs and CPAs like yourself.
• 49:27
  We're looking for more ways to save tax advantage stats and how that can fit into an individual and family portfolio.
• 49:35
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 49:36
  I mean, even earlier today, I woke up with like a crick in my back on Tuesday and I got into the chiropractor today.
• 49:44
  And I'm always just a cash pay guy because self-employed, you know, that's a whole nother rabbit hole.
• 49:48
  Just health insurance is so broken.
• 49:51
  So I ended up just basically paying for a lot of things out of pocket and then doing what you guys are recommending.
• 49:56
  And I can't wait to move my HSA from hsabank.com to Sound HSA, you know, immediately, basically.
• 50:03
  So really appreciate you all coming on.
• 50:07
  It's been really amazing to watch you all build the company and get user feedback and the steps piece.
• 50:14
  I mean, I know for I can imagine a world, right, where it's like an employer.
• 50:17
  They've got Bitcoin on the balance sheet and they're paying direct out to their employees as they hit certain milestones from a health journey standpoint.
• 50:25
  So super excited about all of that.
• 50:28
  Wyatt, any closing thoughts from you all before we let them kind of let us know where they can find, everyone can find them?
• 50:36
  Yeah, I just want to express my gratitude for what you guys are doing.
• 50:39
  You know, just sitting in our role as kind of advisor piece, like we rely on entrepreneurs like yourself to make our job easier and develop your products within the Bitcoin ecosystem.
• 50:50
  So keep up the good work, gentlemen.
• 50:53
  It is fantastic to watch the ride.
• 50:56
  Thank you.
• 50:57
  It's been a fun journey.
• 50:58
  And the team has done just a fantastic job to sprint to where we are today.
• 51:03
  And so, yeah, more to come for sure.
• 51:05
  We're excited about the journey.
• 51:08
  Yeah, I really appreciate y'all.
• 51:09
  And check out soundhsa.com and join the waitlist and get ready to join.
• 51:14
  You can also download the mobile app in iOS or Android.
• 51:18
  and check us out, X, Noster, LinkedIn,
• 51:21
  I'd say are going to be the main channels.
• 51:23
  We're posting some updates
• 51:24
  and keeping in touch with folks,
• 51:25
  but feel free to reach out anytime.
• 51:28
  Looking forward to connecting with you all.
• 51:31
  Beautiful.
• 51:31
  All right.
• 51:32
  Well, thanks again, John and Stu.
• 51:33
  And yeah, we will keep tabs.
• 51:35
  Hopefully I would love to bring you guys on,
• 51:37
  you know, maybe into first quarter
• 51:38
  and give an update on where everything stands.
• 51:40
  So thanks so much.
• 51:41
  And we'll talk to you all soon.
• 51:42
  Okay.
• 51:43
  All right, guys.
• 51:43
  Thank you.
• 51:48
  We appreciate you joining us.
• 51:50
  If you want to help build the future of Bitcoin in financial services, hit subscribe, leave a review, sign up for a newsletter, and share this with someone in your network who's integrating Bitcoin into their practice.
• 52:01
  The more professionals we reach, the stronger this ecosystem becomes and our clients are better served.
• 52:07
  Stay sharp, stay sovereign, and keep leading from the front.
• 52:18
  to be better than it is.
• 52:32
  Yeah, perhaps.
• 52:32
  Yeah, maybe.