Latest / Camp Classics / Jawbreaker (1999) w. special guest ROSE MCGOWAN

Transcript

Jawbreaker (1999) w. special guest ROSE MCGOWAN · Camp Classics

0:00
I did not expect to be coming for Shakespeare in this.
0:04
Get away from her, you bitch. Classic.
0:09
He was in the Amazon with my mom when she was researching spiders
0:13
right before she died. No, you thought you become a
0:20
prostitute, you're a go get it. I used to love doggy chow.
0:25
I used to love doggy chow too. She's so evil and she's only a
0:30
podcaster. She's Crystal.
0:33
This is high school Crystal. What is a friend anyway?
0:37
I'm Sue gifts a fuck. And welcome to Camp Classics.
0:44
A thoughtful podcast about stupid movies.
0:48
Learn it, live it, love it. Every two weeks we are here
0:54
discussing and writing some of the peaks and valleys in the
0:58
genre of camp in the search for the campus of Camp Classics.
1:04
Baby can't be here this week, so we are joined by the gorgeous
1:08
Sue Gives a Fuck. I'm doing my best to fill those
1:11
size 22 shoes that's not European.
1:14
Sizes and also how's the odor of those shoes?
1:21
Invigorating. Where is baby?
1:25
Well, let's just say she's in my trunk with a jawbreaker in her
1:33
throat. I.
1:35
Killed Liz, I killed the teen Dream.
1:37
Deal with it. Hi Sue, How are?
1:40
You, darling, I'm very well. Well, I've got a mild cold, but
1:45
the show must go on. I was saying before we started
1:48
recording that it's kind of giving Britney Spears on Good
1:51
Morning America, so you're in great company.
1:56
Good Morning, America. I thought I was the first person
1:59
to have a cold, but it turns out, as with all things, Britney
2:02
invented it. Yeah, she did.
2:04
It's nice to have you back, though.
2:05
It's been a while. It has been a while.
2:07
I'm so glad to be back. And while I've been gone, you
2:12
have been just elevated and elevated.
2:15
Things have really kicked up a gear in recent months, I got to
2:18
say so. I just feel absolutely
2:22
unqualified to discuss a movie of which your recent guests have
2:27
included the star and the director.
2:32
Yeah, we're all unqualified here though, babes.
2:39
Before we get into that little Easter egg, though, we do of
2:41
course have a Gatreon where you can get a bonus episode every
2:45
month. And our latest Gatreon episode
2:48
is on Vamp, which is of course an 80s horror movie starring
2:52
Grace Jones as a vampire stripper.
2:54
Yay, right? So, you know, if that doesn't do
2:59
enough for you, I don't know. I don't know why you're even
3:01
here listening. No, I just, it literally
3:02
ejaculated. Yeah.
3:04
We've got some new Gatron members to shout out.
3:07
We've got Sophie Mcclatchy, Meredith Craig and Brandon
3:11
Wetmore. Oh.
3:14
I know I I'm glad you also feel intrigued by the name Wetmore.
3:19
Oh, Brenton Wetmore. Oh, I think I might have seen
3:22
some of his videos. Yeah, it's giving 80's porn star
3:26
for sure. Whereas Sophie Mcclatchy is like
3:29
a sort of Scottish comedy character, possibly sort of a
3:32
Catherine Tate type of. I hear that.
3:35
I'm getting like, yeah, Scottish crime novelist.
3:39
I will say Sophie Mcclutchy, I just did a Yorkshire accent,
3:44
didn't I? That's what I did there, Sophie
3:46
Mcclutchy. I'd also like to shout out Kate
3:50
Julian, who cancelled her Patreon membership only to come
3:55
crawling back and resubscribe. And that's the energy we love on
4:00
this podcast. Keep us guessing, Kate.
4:03
Keep us on our toes, make us shiver with.
4:08
Antisia. You know the rest, Yeah.
4:12
We didn't have time for that pause.
4:16
And of course, if you can't subscribe to the Gatreon because
4:20
honestly, hearing from us twice a month is more than enough, you
4:23
can leave us a review and five star rating wherever you're
4:26
listening. You could be like IJ Travis who
4:30
says about our Interview with the Vampire episode and I quote
4:35
the original sad reluctant vampire protagonist with raging
4:39
homosexual subtext is Maria Zelenska in Dracula's Daughter,
4:44
which is also wonderfully camp. And if I recall correctly, you
4:48
were on the Interview with the Vampire episode, so I was.
4:51
We obviously discussed sad gay vampires and we've had the first
4:57
one here, apparently Dracula's daughter's from 1936 and it's
5:01
basically a lesbian unauthorized vampire sequel to Dracula.
5:06
OK, well thank you for the hot tip.
5:08
Yeah, about sad homosexual reluctance.
5:13
We've also had a lecture on Spotify, Say Love the pod.
5:17
Y'all are so fun. And her movie recommendations
5:20
are Romeo and Michelle. Yeah, Debs.
5:23
Yeah. Spice World.
5:25
Oh, is that on the list? It is indeed urban legend, which
5:30
I've never seen scream Elvira. And but I'm a cheerleader now,
5:37
Elektra, I have to say we've covered, but I'm a cheerleader.
5:39
So she's your homework, Electra. Come on now, you're getting up.
5:44
Best to B plus. Did you have a brain tumor for
5:47
breakfast? But thank you for the other
5:49
suggestions. I think that's like our 10th
5:50
request for Romeo and Michelle. So groundbreaking.
5:53
It really does need to get covered.
5:55
Well, do you know what? We're going to mention it today
5:58
because it had the same costume team.
6:00
It did indeed, and you can see the fingerprints all over it,
6:04
can't you? You can, But yeah, thank you
6:06
everyone, as always, for your suggestions.
6:09
And as Brandon Wetmore says, keep them coming.
6:16
No, Brandon Wetmore says. Don't go.
6:19
No, don't come. You don't know what I'm on about
6:25
because you ain't seen this film after you, but you're about to
6:28
find out. You mean the listeners or me?
6:31
I really hope you've seen this film, but I would really respect
6:36
if you haven't. Imagine I've just been doing
6:39
this podcast just based on Wikipedia.
6:41
Some synopsis. I include in interviewing the
6:45
styles of the films. Yeah.
6:49
Sue, before we go any further, could you let the listeners know
6:53
what makes a camp classic? A camp classic is something that
6:59
unlocks queer joy, that gives us a little wetty, something that
7:04
has an ongoing legacy, ideally, something that informs queer pop
7:07
culture. It should be so stupid it's
7:10
genius. Ideally, if it makes sense,
7:13
probably. It's not camp and it should
7:16
ultimately have underdog flop vibes.
7:19
Something with flaccid energy. Love that.
7:24
Also, could you say flop again? That really did something for
7:27
me. Flop, delicious.
7:33
And Sue. I don't know if you've noticed,
7:35
but the leaves are on the ground.
7:37
There's a chill in the air. It must be time to head back to
7:42
school. It is, isn't it?
7:45
Just before we get properly spooky, we're off those to
7:49
school. So in honor of the death of
7:51
Summer and the return to the grind, today we're covering
7:53
1999's Jawbreaker, which is, of course one of the Holy Trinity
7:58
of Evil Bitch in high school movies, sandwiched lovingly
8:02
between Heather's and Mean Girls.
8:05
Life's a bitch and then you die. That's how I what I say to
8:09
myself in the mirror every morning.
8:11
Is that your affirmation? We'll get into our context and
8:15
recap shortly, but as Sue already teased, the very
8:18
exciting news about this episode is that I was able to blag an
8:22
interview with the one and only Rose McGowan for this episode.
8:26
And it was such a good interview.
8:29
Thank you it. Was so good.
8:31
You asked a question that I have often wondered and as when we've
8:35
done these films is you talked about intentional and
8:39
unintentional camp. And when you're making a film
8:41
that's intentional camp, how the fuck do you act that?
8:46
Yeah. Like, are you doing, to what
8:49
extent are you doing little winks to camera?
8:51
And Rose McGowan was like 0%. No winks, no winks.
8:55
You just have to play it straight and let the movie take
8:58
care of the rest. Which is really hard because
9:01
that's not what it looks like she's doing.
9:02
No, no. It's fascinating.
9:05
Yeah, I also got to ask her about her time on Charmed, her
9:10
role as a go go dancer with a machine gun leg in Planet Terror
9:14
and if she thinks a doggy door could really kill someone.
9:18
So we really cover a lot of ground in this interview and it
9:23
will be at the end of this episode, so stick around for
9:26
that. OK, So Jawbreaker.
9:28
I mean, what's your history with this movie, Sue?
9:32
Zero. I, I feel like I said this every
9:34
single time you get me on the show.
9:36
I am like the you know, when you have to have in any film that's
9:42
immersed in like a speculative fiction, like in a new world,
9:45
you need to have the audience's eyes and ears.
9:48
Basically, I'm justifying my ignorance.
9:50
Right. You're the dumb dumb that needs
9:52
things explained to them, right? Exactly.
9:55
I had never seen this film. I had never heard of this film.
9:58
You'd never heard of this film. I had never heard of job
10:02
breaker. I wasn't even clear on what the
10:05
candy was. I'm I'm familiar with
10:10
gobstoppers, that's my issue. Yeah, pretty fucked up name for
10:15
a candy, don't you think? What?
10:18
What's the best line? Some of the sweetest candies are
10:21
sour as death. So good Pam Grier really chewing
10:27
up the scenery. She is and she gets that one
10:30
scene of just Tour de force chewing and then then where does
10:36
she go? She's.
10:36
Gone. That's OK.
10:38
So yeah, my history is is absolutely zero and I was OK.
10:42
So delighted to discover it. I think that's quite fun.
10:45
I think it'll be fun to get like a totally fresh take in the year
10:49
2025 of this movie. My history is a little bit more
10:53
tawdry. I think I watched this probably
10:55
when I was like 19 or 20, and I think it was one of those
10:57
movies. I don't know.
11:00
Did you have like a partner or a gay friend when you were around
11:04
that age? That was like, oh, you're out
11:06
now, You're out now. These are the things you need to
11:10
know about to be gay. No, it's like gay starter pack,
11:13
you know? I needed that.
11:15
I didn't. I swear I didn't meet again
11:19
until I was about 26. I'm.
11:22
Sorry I started doing drag not knowing any gays.
11:26
Wow, that explains a lot about your drag honestly.
11:33
Sorry, you made that one easy. You make it so easy, don't.
11:37
You but yeah, I feel like this was part of like the gay starter
11:40
pack of like watch this, watch the first season of AB fab watch
11:45
Heather's, you know, that kind of vibe.
11:47
Yeah, you are that for me. This podcast is that for me.
11:51
But so this film was on the list.
11:54
Yeah, yeah, it was, It was. And I've watched it many times
11:56
since. Yeah, I've met the director,
11:59
I've met the star now. So it's really, really played a
12:02
role in my life. You are the world's leading
12:04
expert on jawbreak. I think that probably is not
12:08
true. You're well above average.
12:11
Well above you. And that's why I'm here, just to
12:16
make you look better. I represent average.
12:20
No, I represent a bit below average in this and all things.
12:24
Good thing she's funny. Oh, that puts a lot of pressure
12:26
on the rest of the episode a bit.
12:29
Of pressure, but I'm sure it'll be fine.
12:32
I'm going to smash her. I'll delete that if you're if.
12:34
You become. Quite unfunny.
12:38
I actually think this film is like a really important just
12:40
discussion of just issues concerning your gender and.
12:45
Yeah, there's actually, I found a quote of Derren and Rose
12:48
talking about this movie like about 10 years ago and they were
12:50
like, they called it an anti message movie.
12:52
They're like there is no message in this movie.
12:54
Both of them said that. It's quite funny.
12:56
Oh, that's fun because I did wonder, you know, with Heather's
13:01
going so in in the marketing and all that, being like this is a
13:06
message movie and you might unlike, I feel like the critics
13:09
were saying, oh, there's maybe not that much to it.
13:11
And they were like, oh, there's hella stuff to it.
13:14
I love that this film has gone with, Oh yeah, we're not.
13:16
Yeah, we're not. Fuck that.
13:19
Yeah, fuck messages. Let's just look hot and be mean.
13:23
So Jawbreaker. It was written and directed by
13:26
Darren Stein. It was made for a tiny budget of
13:29
$3,000,000, which is absolutely nothing.
13:34
And it. Was the same, that's the same
13:37
amount that Heather's was made for, although like 10 years
13:40
earlier so. When was when is Heather's?
13:43
It's kind of even earlier than that, right?
13:44
Yeah, yeah. I think it's more like 13.
13:46
Yeah, I think it's like 86 or something.
13:48
Right, right. So yeah, actually 3,000,000 then
13:50
it would be like 6,000,000 by the time of this movie.
13:54
Yeah, it's a, it's definitely a modest budget and it was also
13:57
shot in 28 days, which is nothing.
14:00
Wow, that's. Cool, because there's actually
14:03
quite a lot of locations and sort of time settings, so that's
14:09
not an easy shoot. No, it's not.
14:12
And on top of all of that, Darren was 27 years old at the
14:16
time, which is just, that's fucking.
14:18
Humiliating. Yeah, look at us, just sat here
14:21
on Zoom. I know when I when I turned 27,
14:24
I really hope that I'm that impressive as well.
14:27
I can't even make that joke, it's just pathetic at my.
14:31
Age. I'm OK with being pathetic.
14:33
That's fine. I'm transitioning these days and
14:38
I feel like you're just allowed so much more delusion because
14:43
it's like I've sort of decided to make my whole thing delusion
14:47
really. I've my whole thing is what I'm
14:50
perceiving is not what the world's perceiving.
14:52
So I'm trans age. I'm trans beauty, not trans, not
14:58
none of the the other things, but not Rachel Dolezaling or.
15:02
Yeah, not trans Rachel. We're not transracial, but we
15:05
are trans. Rachel in that I am Rachel from
15:07
Friends. Any trans speciesism?
15:10
Yeah. Like be a bit cat or dolphin or
15:15
oh. Stop it, I'm going to humiliate
15:16
myself here. Me and my partner, all partners
15:20
have a cutesy thing and there's no shame in it.
15:23
He's a duck and I'm a squid, so I'm a squid.
15:26
Perfect, but the delusion reign. That is cute and also.
15:38
Have you got one? Oh God, probably.
15:43
But I, you know, choose to. Thank you.
15:45
Keep that a mystery. Thank you for having someone on
15:48
this podcast with some dignity. OK, back to this movie.
15:51
So on release, Jawbreaker was a box office bomb.
15:57
It wasn't given a very wide release and it only made
15:59
$3,000,000 with box office. It was also critically panned at
16:03
the time and it's only got 15% on Rotten Tomatoes, which
16:08
actually shocked me. That's one of the the lowest
16:12
scores of any movie we've covered.
16:14
It's it's like at the bottom of the barrel in terms of Rotten
16:17
Tomatoes scores and. Yeah, so I saw that 15% before I
16:21
watched it, so I was expecting a very different movie.
16:24
I don't know what's been going on with these critics.
16:27
Yeah, well, they're mostly men and they're mostly straight.
16:31
That's it. They don't like these evil
16:33
ladies. They like the nice, pliant
16:35
ladies. Do you have a vision for that as
16:38
part of your transition? Oh, I'm I am the most pliant of
16:42
ladies. I really am.
16:44
I am. I'm not a Rose McGowan.
16:47
I'm a Meg Ryan. Oh, that's nice, Meg Ryan, But
16:53
also if she got arrested for activism.
16:56
Right. Yeah.
16:57
No Meg Ryan with a backbone. Yeah, I'm also trans,
17:02
apolitical, I'm deeply political, but that's not really
17:05
part of the vibe I'm going for. So that's not part of the
17:08
fantasy. Sue just so you know listeners
17:14
is an inspiration and has been arrested for protesting
17:18
genocide. Protesting.
17:21
Was it Just Stop Oil that you were part of the first time you
17:23
got arrested? Oh no, you're you're really up
17:26
in my credentials. Yeah, I just the 1 for me.
17:29
Just just the genocide. Back to this movie again.
17:33
Sorry I keep getting tangented, obviously.
17:37
Yeah. So this movie was like a bomb
17:39
and critically panned when it was released, but it's obviously
17:41
become since a bit of a cult fave and it's really found a
17:44
life amongst the gays who have kept it alive.
17:47
There have been multiple oral histories, pop culture
17:50
references, music videos inspired by fashion
17:54
retrospectives. I mean, it heavily inspired Mean
17:57
Girls as we can come on to maybe later.
18:00
And so basically it's around still, but I'd say it's remained
18:04
a little underground and obviously you'd never even heard
18:06
of it, so. No, but the job of queer people
18:09
is to extend the life of pop stars, movies, actors, brands
18:17
long past their reasonable lifespan.
18:21
Long may it continue. Absolutely.
18:23
I'm, you know, I expect to see Samantha Mumber on a stage.
18:28
Well, into her it is. OK, should we get into the plot
18:34
of this movie? Yes please.
18:36
As there is quite a long interview with Rose McGowan at
18:38
the end of this episode, I'm going to speed through this
18:41
plot. Otherwise I think this episode's
18:43
going to be 3 hours long. So the Flawless 4 are the most
18:46
popular girls in high school, consisting of Queen Bee Courtney
18:50
Shane played by Rose McGowan, airhead Marcy Fox played by
18:54
Julie Benz, Julie played by Rebecca Gehart, and Liz Per,
19:00
played by Charlotte Ayana. Of the four, only Liz is
19:04
genuinely kind hearted, whereas the rest demand respect through
19:09
terror. On the morning of Liz's 17th
19:14
birthday, the other three girls play that.
19:17
You know, classic prank where you kidnap your best friend on
19:20
their birthday. Of course, that classic prank
19:23
that we've all participated. In honestly in my teenage years
19:26
I was never out of a car boot. But they kidnap Liz and gag her
19:33
with a jawbreaker. They lock her in the trunk of a
19:36
car, but upon opening the trunk they discover Liz has choked to
19:41
death on the jawbreaker. Is that the relevant sound
19:50
effects? Discovering your friend dead.
19:58
Hijinks ensue. The end.
20:02
Yeah, Basically, yeah. So Julie wants to report the
20:06
situation to the police, but Courtney wants to cover it up
20:09
and so calls the school posing as Liz's mother to tell them Liz
20:13
is ill and won't be coming to school.
20:16
The three then go to school with Liz dead in the trunk.
20:20
OK, so to explain the circumstances of Liz's death,
20:23
Courtney devises a story that she was killed by a rapist and
20:29
she says they'll believe it because it's their worst
20:31
nightmare. Assistant principal E Sherwood,
20:35
played by Carol Kane, sends outcast Fern Mayo.
20:40
Great name. And they call her mayonnaise,
20:44
which kids obviously would. Yeah, it's uninventive.
20:48
And that makes it really true. Yeah, it's so good.
20:51
Fern Mayo was played by Judy Greer.
20:53
She is sent to deliver Liz's homework to her after school.
20:58
Fern idolizes Liz to the point of lesbianism.
21:04
Yeah. Yeah, I think we it's fair to
21:06
say. And so she's happy to oblige.
21:09
But upon arriving at Liz's house, she encounters the three
21:13
other girls planting Liz's dead body in her bed and she flees in
21:17
horror. The girls catch her and by her
21:21
silence by enticing her to take Liz's place in the Flawless 4.
21:27
You know you want it. I mean, who amongst us could
21:31
resist that offer? Oh my God, I'm still waiting for
21:35
that offer. Cover up a little tiny murder
21:38
for, you know, everything you've ever wanted.
21:42
To go from being the shadow to the sun.
21:46
Delicious Fern is given a dramatic makeover and changed
21:51
into a beautiful exchange student named Violet.
21:55
Learn. It, live it, love it.
21:59
Julie is wracked with guilt and so distances herself from the
22:03
group while Violet's popularity soars.
22:08
Courtney, meanwhile, seduces a stranger played by Marilyn
22:11
Manson to have sex in Liz's bed, framing him for the murder,
22:16
which manages to fool Pam Grier, who plays the detective who is
22:20
investigating the death. Fun bit of trivia for you here.
22:24
Pam Grier's contract states that she must be in charge of doing
22:27
her own hair for her films and so and for this film she's
22:31
wearing 3 wigs sewn together. Wig.
22:33
Did you just say wig? She did that herself.
22:36
She did that herself. Why?
22:39
Oh, I love it. Yeah, that is a that is a big
22:44
swing. And I'm afraid, Pam, it's a big
22:48
swing that I miss in this instance.
22:50
I know Wig, I feel that already. But I could imagine she came.
22:55
I mean, she came to fame doing black exploitation movies and I
22:57
bet she had to deal with a lot of dumb white ladies who didn't
23:00
know a thing about black hair. I guess you're right.
23:04
Yeah, I mean, I've, I've done hair and makeup in TV and movies
23:08
before and it's those trailers are often very white and people
23:12
don't know what they're doing when it comes to black hair.
23:14
So yeah, it makes sense. Who is the black comedian?
23:20
Used to do kids TV in the UK and now is it big in America?
23:24
I did a show with her once and I got too drunk.
23:26
I got stuck in a box. Anyway, I can't.
23:28
What is her name? Lewisby, but she was telling a
23:30
story recently about a makeup artist, A white makeup artist.
23:36
We're working with the BBC in the UK who didn't have makeup
23:40
for her skin tone and used hot chocolate.
23:43
No, yeah. So it's a real thing.
23:47
Although I guess if you're going to wear 3 wigs, is it a you're
23:53
not trying to work with your natural texture are you?
23:56
No, maybe it it's something that she started with in the 70s for
24:02
good reasons and you know, that slowly warped into.
24:08
Yeah. No that I just wear 3 wigs.
24:11
It's like with filler isn't it? You just keep adding that bit
24:14
more. Got one more wig on here.
24:18
What is wig? What is wig?
24:19
No, it's not your language, it's just for a wig.
24:22
So Violet becomes even more popular than Courtney and the
24:28
power goes to her head. Is anyone hearing Katie Heron
24:32
and Katie Heron? A confrontation ensues.
24:38
So so Courtney and Marcy post yearbook photos of Fern Mayo all
24:43
over the school, revealing Violet's true identity.
24:46
Is anyone hearing Katie Heron? Do we have a Katie Heron here?
24:50
I'm just going to keep saying that throughout this.
24:52
Many shades of Mean Girls. This leaves Fern slash Violet
24:56
humiliated and destroys her new popularity.
24:59
But Julie, who's had other stuff happening that I don't care
25:02
about, sympathizes with Fern and forgives her for falling under
25:06
Courtney's influence. Julie and Fern find a recording
25:11
of Courtney saying I killed Liz, I killed the team Dream Deal
25:16
with it. And the night of prom they rig
25:19
it to play over the intercom as Courtney is pronounced prom
25:23
queen, very Carey style. The whole school turns on
25:28
Courtney as she is outed as a murderer.
25:32
Few credits, but instead of pig's blood, she's pelted with
25:35
corsages. Lovely, lovely little touch
25:39
isn't it? A slow MO corsage pelt.
25:44
Played deadly seriously then. There.
25:46
I can see what Rose McGowan is talking about.
25:48
Yeah, she really played it like those corsages were made of
25:52
glass. She's experiencing bullets.
25:55
Yeah, she is. Why she's taking those corsages?
25:58
And the makeup artist has drawn like, I think maybe bit of
26:01
blood, but also the mascara is down the face.
26:06
Like, she's really been through the war with these corsages.
26:08
Don't pick a fight with corsages.
26:11
No. So obviously we had Darren Stein
26:13
on the podcast to discuss Carrie, so I recommend people go
26:16
back and listen to that episode. And we talked a bit about
26:18
Jawbreaker in that episode, but he revealed that the inspo for
26:22
that scene was obviously Carrie, but it's also inspired by the
26:25
whole album cover Live Through This, which is a beauty queen
26:28
with mascara running. So that mascara is a real
26:32
choice, deliberate choice. Oh, beautiful.
26:35
Yeah, I like that. Oh, and look, I'm very pro that
26:38
makeup choice. It's an absolute.
26:41
One of my favorite things about this movie is the stylized, non
26:44
naturalistic sequences. Which is why that bit you
26:47
mentioned where Judy Greer ends up with a bloody head is a
26:52
perfect one of those because it's another one where she's
26:55
sort of being pelted with things as she goes through the classic
26:58
student high school corridors. And it's, oh, it's a bit much,
27:01
but oh, no, then someone's looking after her and trying to
27:04
clean up her wound. Only you've played that for
27:05
real. Yeah, I didn't really know what
27:08
was going on there, but otherwise these non naturalistic
27:13
sequences like the immortal slow MO high school corridor walk for
27:19
the plastics and like the pelting with cosages I thought
27:24
were really beautiful and crucially the makeover.
27:29
I was just going to say, oh, isn't it stunning?
27:31
It's love. It's it's because it's, it's
27:33
Frankenstein. It's Rocky Horror, Weird
27:38
Victoriana. Like yeah, we are literally
27:41
making a person. Yeah, it's like candy coated
27:45
Frankenstein. And they borrow a line from
27:49
Rocky Horror, right they. Do they do?
27:51
I've made you and I can. I can break you.
27:54
Yeah, yeah, maybe this is a great jumping off point to just
27:57
talk about like the costume, the set design, the sound design.
28:01
There is so many choices get made in this movie, which is one
28:05
of the things I absolutely adore about it because I think
28:07
whenever there was a choice to be made, they were like, let's
28:10
go for the bold one. Yeah, let's go for the one that
28:12
we wanted. Yeah.
28:14
It didn't seem like this was not, you know, a camel, a horse
28:17
designed by a committee. This was like, you know, the
28:21
team had visions and they were clearly allowed, maybe because
28:25
it was a small budget. There wasn't that money over the
28:27
top of them saying no, we need to factor to this audience or
28:30
whatever. They made their choices.
28:33
Yeah. And so that like, transfers into
28:35
the costumes where Darren was like, no black is allowed on
28:39
set. Everybody needs to be in colour,
28:40
which is really fab. Yeah.
28:44
You've got like all of these sound design choices, which I
28:46
think are really fun. Like when the screen, like you
28:50
get screen wipes and it like does a whooshing sound effect or
28:53
like the jock like sticks his tongue out at Courtney and it
28:57
gives like a waggle to exactly just like quite silly, kind of
29:03
John Watersy, cartoony sort of effects.
29:08
Yeah. And and it all adds up to this
29:10
like, yeah, incredibly stylized, not always necessarily good, but
29:15
always unique end product. Yeah, which is really fun.
29:19
And I do feel like the aesthetics were good.
29:24
I thought with the costume, 'cause it's amazing when you,
29:29
you can just watch this film and be like, oh, it looks like the
29:32
90s and it doesn't at all look like the 90s.
29:35
So costumed by Vicki Barrett, who did Romeo and Michelle and
29:38
Clueless and just like especially Clueless, like bold
29:43
choices are made by and no student was wearing what any
29:48
student in either of those two films was wearing.
29:51
And yet they've gone down as not only iconic looks, but also
29:55
looks that really represent. Something about.
29:58
Yeah, an era and a way of being teenage is fact that no teenager
30:02
has ever worn. Like you know that Cher from
30:05
clueless 2 piece tweed. Look, it's you know some it's
30:11
some visionary work. It is just like such a delicious
30:14
mood board and you can just imagine how many designers mood
30:18
boards this movie has been on, you know?
30:23
Is is costume a good moment to come on to hair?
30:27
Yeah, sure, let's talk about hair.
30:28
Oh right, OK, come on now. So bold choices have been made
30:35
and I I don't know what the Violet is, but it's it was it
30:42
ahead of its time because it's it is a bit, you know, choppy
30:47
naughty sweep across lesbian drama teacher kind of up do is
30:53
that what what people having this in the 90s?
30:56
I don't I don't know what the reference there is.
30:58
I I don't know, but yeah, not since Halle Berry and Catwoman
31:02
have we seen quite such a hair make under it is.
31:06
It's a complex wig. No, I don't think.
31:10
I think it's her hair, isn't it? I think she had to.
31:12
It looks like it's her hair. I was.
31:14
I was getting that twisted with. It's actually Julie Benz who
31:19
played Marcie, I think, who had to cut her hair.
31:24
OK, I don't know. For it, yeah.
31:28
I heard this on another podcast that I listened to.
31:30
She had to cut her hair for it. And in that opening scene when
31:36
they realized that their friend is dead and that they've
31:38
essentially killed her, they all have to be hysterical.
31:40
They all have to be crying. And she was like, how do I get,
31:43
how do I access this emotion? So what she did is she just put
31:46
her hands up and touched her hair and she just started
31:50
crying, which honestly I understand.
31:58
That's so good. It's also something, it's so
32:00
something that her character would do.
32:02
Yeah, yeah, it's perfect. But yeah, I mean it is hard to
32:09
sell Bombshell with what's she kind of giving when she's
32:14
Violet. It's kind of giving like your
32:15
nan who's just come from her perm.
32:19
Yeah, and there's a hint of Hillary Clinton.
32:21
Yeah, she's been sat in that chair all day, reading the
32:24
latest magazines, talking to the girls.
32:26
Do you know what it's giving? It's giving some of the videos
32:29
that you have kindly sent me in the past on Instagram where
32:32
you'll get adverts for little local hairdressers that will do
32:37
experimental updos on ladies of a certain age in small town
32:42
Midwest. It's giving that because it is,
32:45
it's a Karen up to, you know, with your spiky top and and your
32:49
sort of fringe bits, but made real, real complex.
32:53
I suppose the kind the kind read on it is it's giving Madonna in
33:00
the 80s when she was referencing the 50s.
33:03
OK. You know what I mean?
33:04
True blue. Yeah.
33:06
Borderline. Yeah.
33:08
And there is. Open your heart.
33:09
Yeah. Yeah, and actually there is a
33:11
bouffon. See.
33:13
Yeah. There is a choppiness in places,
33:15
but there's also a bouffon. See.
33:17
That would be 1950s, yeah. I could listen to you say
33:20
bouffon, see and flop. Thank you all day.
33:24
They're big parts of my gender idiots too.
33:28
OK, have we covered hair? Yeah, I think, yeah, we've done
33:32
the three wigs, we've done the updo, those, the two key pieces.
33:36
What about campus moments? What were your what were your
33:39
campus moments in the movie? Campus moments.
33:42
OK, so yeah #1 for me is pelted with corsages, which we've
33:47
covered. Number 2 is actually makeover
33:51
scene. Rocky Horror Frankenstein #3 is
33:58
probably the in the bathroom cigarette fight.
34:03
Sexy little I'm going to take a drag and I'm going to blow it
34:08
into your mouth without you knowing.
34:10
And I did hear that the director told Judy Greer to do that and
34:16
didn't tell Rose McGowan that it was coming.
34:18
Then Rose McGowan snatches that cigarette and throws it out and
34:23
carries on this cattiest of catty fights there is.
34:27
I think it's there that she says I made you and I could break
34:30
you. So I think that's.
34:32
Delicious. I I think that brings us on to
34:35
my favorite, which is the way we find out that Violet has gone
34:40
too far. This is kind of camp, both
34:42
intentionally and unintentionally, I think,
34:44
because the movie kind of jumbles us a bit, which kind of
34:47
makes me laugh, but also it's just quite funny.
34:49
So Courtney and Marcy are talking, and Marcy's like, she's
34:52
gone too far. She's the power's gone to her
34:55
head. And Courtney's like, no,
34:56
everything's fine, I'm in control.
34:58
And then they hear this commotion outside, and they go
35:01
to investigate what it is. And it's just Violet on the hood
35:04
of her car, just sitting there rocking out to something.
35:09
And everyone is gathered around her just like, screaming and
35:13
cheering, and she's just doing nothing except sitting on her
35:15
car. And that is enough to send
35:18
Courtney into a rage. And that's when she's gone too
35:20
far. I so good love.
35:23
It, and I presume you know as I did not know what that is, is
35:29
referencing. Yes.
35:31
So it's a reference to Angelina, who is an LA icon.
35:35
You now know who Angelina is. I now know, Yeah, So she's just
35:39
some woman who got hold of a bit of cash and just paid for dozens
35:44
of massive billboards across California with her reclining in
35:50
her lingerie and her fabulous bubbly boobs on the top of a
35:53
Corvette with just, like, Angelina written in a lovely
35:58
font over it. And everyone was like, who the
36:00
fuck's this bitch? And why is she such an icon?
36:02
Why did you get the cash for this?
36:05
Yeah, incredible. Incredible.
36:07
She's been also referenced many, many times.
36:09
A real camp icon is our Angelina, and also a symbol of
36:13
everything wrong with America, some might say.
36:15
Yeah, but also everything. Right.
36:18
And camp really lives on that border.
36:20
Yeah, yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
36:23
But yeah, I love that. It's just like she's just
36:25
inexplicably drawn a crowd just by sitting on her car.
36:30
So good, I love it. A car that she's got by being
36:33
popular. By being hot.
36:36
Who amongst us has not received a car for their look?
36:39
I think mine's still in the post.
36:41
Yeah, I, I think that scene and like some of what the other ones
36:45
you've described as well, I think contribute to this feeling
36:48
this movie has, which is just, everything's a little bit
36:50
dreamlike. Yeah.
36:51
Nothing really. Like if you look too hard at any
36:55
of the plot points, you're like huh?
36:58
What? But if you just take it all as
37:01
kind of dream logic, it's quite fab.
37:03
Like somehow I think this movie probably, it seems like it takes
37:07
place over what, the course of a week or two maybe.
37:12
And hard, hard to say for sure, but it's not a long stretch of
37:15
time. But in that time, Violet has
37:17
become the head of the cheerleading team, the star of
37:22
the school play. She's got herself a Corvette,
37:24
she's the most popular girl in school, and no one seems to care
37:27
where she came from or who she is.
37:29
None of the teachers have questioned it.
37:31
No, no. And yeah.
37:34
So like, you can't really investigate that too much from a
37:36
plot perspective. But if you just like enjoy it as
37:39
gay fantasy, it's it's so fab. Yeah.
37:43
And do you know what? Watching it, I didn't feel
37:45
inclined to investigate it because of these stylized
37:49
sequences that told me, OK, you know, the logic that you're
37:53
buying into is not a real world thing.
37:56
So then I read a review like by Roger Ebert, and he's just
38:02
bringing up these things. He's saying the actors look like
38:05
they're in their late 20s. Well, that's sort of the point.
38:08
And Julie could end it all by speaking out, but she doesn't
38:14
because that would be inconvenient for the plot.
38:15
So she speaks out later and. And Violet's transformation
38:20
isn't convincing. I'm like, you are the person who
38:24
made Beyond the Valley of the Dolls.
38:26
Yeah. Which is another film that we
38:29
reviewed together. But you know, that is like,
38:33
probably a reference of this film, right?
38:34
Like, that's another film where the logic you're buying into is
38:38
a dream logic. So I don't really know what
38:40
these reviewers were looking for.
38:43
Totally. They they just basically missed
38:44
the point, didn't they? Why were they so confused by
38:48
this film, do you think, Or so reproachful of it?
38:51
Yeah, great question. I mean, Rose says in our
38:54
interview, like how much stigma there was even about her doing a
38:59
movie with an out gay film director.
39:01
And so I wonder if, like, just something being this kind of
39:05
flagrantly queer while also kind of aiming a little mainstream
39:11
because it's not, it's not trying to be fringe, is it?
39:14
It's not, it's not trying to be a John Waters shock fest that,
39:19
you know, is only for a very small audience.
39:21
It's kind of going for broad while also jamming in all of
39:26
these queer reference points. And I wonder if that was just
39:29
like a little bit too much for people's brains to handle in
39:32
1999. Like, keep this in the gay bars.
39:34
Keep this in the drag clubs. This isn't for mainstream
39:38
America. Yeah, and it sounds like
39:40
listening to kind of the release drama around it, that everyone
39:46
involved had sort of thought that it was going to be a
39:49
mainstream release and that it was that's what they were making
39:52
it for. And then the the distributors
39:57
had all along thought, oh, this is basically a straight to video
40:01
or we'll give it a very limited cinematic release, which could
40:05
have made the marketing a lot clearer and maybe freed up
40:08
something in the filmmaking to just go for the John Waters kind
40:11
of vibe. Yeah, yeah.
40:13
Because certainly it's it's not a clear tone throughout.
40:20
I would say that the tone does slightly fluctuate in terms of,
40:24
you know, the the stylized nurse, the campy nurse.
40:27
Yeah, I think it's probably at its weakest when it goes back to
40:33
plot. Yes.
40:34
And it dips out of the like surrealism, like basically
40:38
everything that happens with Julie.
40:40
I'm like, don't don't need any of this.
40:43
I don't need her love interest. I mean, I, she has a boyfriend
40:45
in it that I, I really wish didn't exist.
40:48
There's, I think there's a world actually where you could have
40:50
combined the Julie and Fern characters and just done it all
40:55
through Fern because splitting the like moral center between
41:01
the two, I think kind of does the movie a bit of a disservice.
41:05
I think they're both good in it, but they're in different movies.
41:08
You're right. And then you could have had a
41:10
little bit more complexity because you'd have had a more
41:12
complex character at the centre of it who would be going too far
41:16
and obsessed with the power that she was getting through
41:19
popularity, but also still have some qualms about doing it on
41:23
the back of a a dead body whose rape has been simulated.
41:29
I was about to say I see Katie Heron, but not even Katie went
41:33
that far. This is it like when you compare
41:36
this film to Mean Girls, which you can't not watching it and
41:39
you think like all those vicious nasty plastics, what they did is
41:44
tell people when they can and can't wear pink.
41:47
You know what this These people covered up a murder and
41:50
simulated a rape and got a a poor innocent man who turned out
41:55
to be Marilyn Manson. Not so poor and innocent
41:59
arrested. But you can see, I, I've had
42:02
this thought before, but you can really see how Mean Girls is
42:05
the, the version of this movie that had like a bit more time, a
42:10
few more writers, a bigger budget and like a studio making
42:14
sure that like all of the boxes were ticked because that is a
42:18
movie that is very like cohesive.
42:20
Yeah, Jawbreaker had to have a go at making this a mainstream
42:27
hit and fail in that regard so that Tina Fey would see it and
42:33
see the potential for a mainstream hit.
42:35
Yeah, and I'm really glad that both exist.
42:38
Like, I've probably seen them equal number of times and they
42:41
they they scratch completely different itches for me.
42:45
But I think they're both iconic in their own ways.
42:48
I could imagine. I mean, Darren has been on the
42:51
record saying like, I watched Mean Girls in the cinema and I
42:54
did feel a little bitter. But, you know, he's obviously
42:57
drawing on the legacy of Heather's.
42:58
So it's all this kind of. Yes, he's drawing on Heather's
43:02
but you know it's not a shot for shot remake.
43:06
And when you do comparisons with being girls, you know, there's
43:10
the slow MO hallway scene introducing the plastics with a
43:14
voice over there. The way that it all goes to shit
43:18
and Violet is thwarted is through posters being put up all
43:23
over the school. You've got 3 evil girls, you've
43:26
got the three-way phone call of the three girls on their bed.
43:34
You know, there's and there's quite a few more that's like,
43:37
oh, you've really just taken those shots, haven't you?
43:39
You could have just twisted those and made them your own
43:42
maybe. Yeah, you're so right.
43:44
I mean, the, oh, the cafeteria scene where they're kind of
43:47
explaining the rules. Of course.
43:49
But that's also that is also in Heather's actually.
43:52
Yeah, you're right. That's did Heather's come up
43:55
with that or was that like a John Hughes invention, that
43:58
scene? Probably a John Hughes
44:00
invention, and to be fair, the first instance I can think of of
44:04
a teen girl movie with girls walking slow motion down the
44:07
hallway is the craft. Yeah, yeah, you're right.
44:11
They did not come up with that. No, but they were staggered.
44:18
They weren't in the line. Right, Tina Fey.
44:21
You could have had them in a in a little triangle formation.
44:24
You know, make it you. Yeah.
44:28
Sexy geese, perhaps? OK, moving on.
44:35
Just want to talk about the gay the gayness of this movie
44:37
because obviously Fern is gay AF.
44:41
Oh, she's deeply gay. Yeah, she's although she does.
44:45
It's interesting how popularity does seem to give her a hint of
44:48
heterosexuality. Just inevitably for being a
44:52
popular lady, you get all the boys and you must like that.
44:56
OK, so Fern, at the start of the movie, is obsessed with Liz
44:59
Burr, and there's a scene where she's recounting how much she
45:02
loved her, and she would just stare at her neck in class and
45:05
make patterns out of the birthmarks on her neck.
45:09
Then she becomes popular, and then she starts using men in the
45:12
way that Courtney does, But I never get the sense that she's
45:14
actually that interested in men. She's like, I need I need these
45:17
men as tools in order to get me a car or to get me more
45:21
popularity or to get me a part in the play.
45:24
She still seems pretty pretty gay to me.
45:28
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
45:30
You're right. She gets the men and she's
45:32
happy. But arguably that's because the
45:35
men are given a nice. Yes, but then I also thought
45:39
I've had this up more recently is that Courtney is also maybe
45:44
quite lesbian coded? It's very homoerotic between the
45:48
two of them. And she's creating a woman.
45:52
I mean, it's, it's she's obviously a sociopath as well,
45:55
but there's something about her that is very, yeah, it's kind of
46:00
a subdom relationship between her and her girlfriends.
46:04
I think she's Pan. Ah, interesting.
46:07
I think she's, yeah, just pure Dom vibes, right?
46:12
Maybe not even that into sex necessarily, just into doming
46:16
power. Because there's the sex scene
46:20
she has with her boyfriend where she makes him fellate A
46:23
popsicle, which I will say was very important to me as a 19
46:27
year old. But yeah, it doesn't seem like
46:31
she's particularly enjoying sex, and she's just very much yeah,
46:35
enjoying have enjoying having a Dick.
46:37
She just wants to see what she can get him to do.
46:40
Yeah, yeah, it's fab. And I did see that actually an
46:46
early tagline of this film was suck it and see.
46:50
Oh, fun. That would have been good, that.
46:53
Is. Good.
46:54
I can see why they perhaps didn't go with that one or.
46:57
What did, what did they go with, you know?
47:01
Oh yes, no, I do. They went with that Pam Grier
47:03
quote. Some of the sweetest candies are
47:06
sour as death. Oh yeah, great.
47:08
Much more marketable as well. You can't just say jawbreaker,
47:11
suck it and see like what? What's that?
47:13
Doing what does it mean? Yeah.
47:15
Jawbreaker suck on it. Oh wait, actually that was
47:19
fantastic. But then, and then I was
47:24
wondering, Darren has talked a bit about this movie kind of
47:27
living on and there being future iterations of it and him wanting
47:30
to cast a trans character in in the movie.
47:34
Fine, I'll do it. And he was saying that he wanted
47:38
Courtney to be trans in the movie.
47:41
But I feel like Fern is the is the one.
47:45
Oh, that would be so sad. Well, let's talk about that a
47:49
bit more because is it sad or is it like, I mean, I'm, I don't
47:53
want to put any words in your mouth, certainly.
47:55
But as someone who's had a much more minor gender journey, even
48:01
just through drag, there's something about creating a
48:04
character or creating a new version of yourself where you
48:09
potentially, when you do it, you overcorrect or you, you build
48:15
too much and you you accidentally build a worse
48:20
version of yourself or like a heightened version of yourself
48:22
that has some negative qualities that you weren't prepared for.
48:25
Oh yeah. And any of us who came out as
48:27
gay performed gay for a bit, right?
48:30
Yes, absolutely. And, and you look back at
48:32
yourself at that time and you're like, oh, was I a misogynist?
48:36
Yeah, of course Kaliga would be sad because I guess she's not
48:40
creating herself and. That's true.
48:44
Rose McGowan is creating a bullet.
48:45
And that's why I don't mean sad problematic.
48:48
I mean, sad, like quite true in that any of us who didn't feel
48:52
in school that we were in our own skin were suckers for anyone
48:57
who would tell us what to be like.
48:59
I had a friend who was a sort of Rose McGowan character.
49:04
Me too, didn't we all? Because we just looked to like,
49:09
you just seem like you know what you need to do and what I need
49:12
to do. And she was a bad influence.
49:15
And then she, she ran away to London and she came back
49:19
pregnant. But before that, she very much
49:23
would tell me, yeah, what to wear, how to, at that time, get
49:27
girls. And I feel like that's what it
49:32
would give if the Violet character was trans.
49:35
But it would be, like, so sweet. But I feel like to get not
49:39
cancelled you'd have to have a level of sympathy in this film
49:43
that maybe isn't the arch tone currently.
49:47
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
49:48
That makes sense. I yeah.
49:51
I also had a friend like that who was a gay man who but who
49:54
was very much modeled after. He had modeled himself after
49:57
Courtney. And we would and we would go to
50:00
the gay bar and we would wear shirts that said things like
50:03
don't feed the models gay, right?
50:08
Or we would rhinestone our own Jador Dior T-shirts gay, right,
50:14
thinking we were really serving. I mean, it actually sounds quite
50:17
fab now. And I could probably, I would
50:19
probably wear that now to a gay rave in, in an ironic, in an
50:23
ironic way. It was not ironic then, no.
50:25
Irony. No.
50:26
And yeah, there's something about the gay.
50:29
Yeah, the the story of being a gay person where you realize at
50:33
some point that you're Fern trying to be Courtney, ending up
50:39
as Marcy and like, not wanting to, not wanting that storyline
50:43
and then having to figure out your whole new thing, which is
50:46
somehow a combination of all of those things.
50:48
But do you know who the director was planning to make trans?
50:53
So he has said, I mean, I, I think he's had conversations
50:57
with Kim Petrus about appearing in some kind of remake of this.
51:01
And I don't know who she would play.
51:02
I would assume she would play a Courtney.
51:05
I'm also like with Kim Petrus, you know, with any CIS passing
51:10
trans person, I'm like, well, you're not.
51:13
You are technically casting a trans person, but you're not
51:16
necessarily writing a trans character there.
51:18
Like it doesn't change how she looks on screen.
51:21
Do you know what I mean? So like sort of, I don't say
51:24
don't bother. Like by by all means cast Kim
51:28
Petrus. I'm not trying to do Kim Petrus
51:30
out of a job, but you're not doing a radical change of the
51:34
form if you do that. Sure.
51:36
And I also think there's there's nothing that fresh about casting
51:40
Courtney as a trans person because actually it's just
51:43
playing into, you know, the Frankenfurter stereotype of like
51:50
evil trans bitch. But there is something
51:53
interesting I think about making Fern a character who's figuring
51:58
out their gender via someone else.
52:00
There could be a really neat way of doing that.
52:02
And maybe that's not for this material to like do, but seeing
52:09
Fern slash Violet as like a trans allegory I think is really
52:12
a really fun way to watch this movie.
52:14
I think it would be beautiful. It would be a quite a different
52:17
movie, but the material is absolutely there to be played
52:20
with. And I hear that he's now, no,
52:22
not even now, like for like a decade he's been making it into
52:25
a musical. Yes.
52:26
And I think it got quite far. And then, you know, as with all
52:30
of these things, it's fits and starts.
52:32
But yeah, the last I heard quite recently is that's still going
52:36
ahead. So we shall see.
52:38
It's going to be interesting because obviously Heather's the
52:40
Musical has been, I believe, a success bought on the back of
52:44
quite, you know, a household name, Joybreaker Lessor.
52:48
So it'll be interesting to see how that does.
52:50
Anything. Else one thing to say is just
52:56
how great I think the concept is, the setup.
52:58
One thing that I love is they introduce the characters in that
53:01
classic teen drama voiceover way.
53:05
They get that to it in 30 seconds and then they're into
53:08
what is almost a cold open of the kidnap and then, oh shit,
53:12
she's dead. And that is all accomplished in
53:14
like 90 seconds of movie. And then you've got the
53:24
Violette. Fern has seen them do it, and so
53:29
she has to be made to not tell. What can we do?
53:33
How can we do that? Well, what can we offer you?
53:35
We can offer you popularity. What a great high stakes
53:39
concept. Like I really feel like they
53:42
absolutely nailed the stakes of that.
53:44
And then I was comparing it to other teen dramas that have been
53:49
arguably sort of more successful, at least in
53:51
mainstream ways. You know, looking at the concept
53:54
of 10 Things I Hate About You, which was not a very dismal of
53:58
time, and there the concept is he wants to date the pretty
54:03
sister, but the dad says you can only date the pretty sister when
54:09
the ugly sister has already started dating.
54:12
That's a weird dad. That's well, you have to blame
54:17
that one on Shakespeare, right? That's.
54:19
That. Is based on, I think, taming
54:21
Taming of the Shrew. I did not expect to be coming
54:26
for Shakespeare in this. What I'm saying is, Jawbreaker
54:32
is just better than Shakespeare. Oh God, that's.
54:38
Why people? That's why people come to this
54:41
podcast, these heart takes. Shakespeare is done.
54:49
He's not going to show his face around here.
54:57
I do. I do take your point.
54:59
I think it's, I think it's a bold swing and it plays into the
55:04
whole nihilism that this movie just is all about, which I think
55:08
is so fab. I think just also the fact that
55:10
they make Courtney so fucking evil.
55:15
I don't love the like the rape storyline in this movie.
55:19
I think it takes it to like a too realistic place when the
55:22
rest of the movie is kind of over the top.
55:24
Yeah, and I don't think it's really needed.
55:27
I don't think it's needed either, but there is something
55:29
about Courtney who is just like the most evil thing you could
55:34
be. And Rose has been on record
55:37
talking about this, but I'll read a quote from her actually,
55:39
she said. And while Courtney could have
55:41
been created today, she wouldn't be the same.
55:43
It would need to be clear that Courtney has sociopathy and that
55:46
there is something wrong with her.
55:47
There would have to be a reason. It's a rarity that a woman is
55:50
just angry or bitchy because she just is.
55:52
It's rare that a movie doesn't try and fix her anger.
55:54
She that just lets her stay exactly as she is.
55:57
I think that's quite neat and it's just, it is fun to just see
56:00
like true villainy sometimes. Yeah, it is.
56:03
And she, she does play it so well.
56:05
I mean, she's, it's not the only time in her career that she's
56:08
played villainy. She does it so well and so
56:11
sexily. Yeah.
56:13
Well, I think on that note, should we rate this movie?
56:17
I haven't prepared my rating. You have to go first.
56:20
That's fine. So we are here to rate this
56:23
movie on our patented campometer where we will give it one to 10
56:28
Merrills. I'm Julia Child for the quality
56:32
of the movie and one to 10 Elizas for the camp factor.
56:39
This is a tough one. I got to say tough and as you
56:42
said pre recording, you know I have been bought out by by what
56:50
did what did you say exactly? You're an establishment figure
56:53
in the world of camp movies. You cannot have the director and
56:57
star of a movie on and then next week give the film 2.
57:01
Right, right, I'm in a bind. That's why we've had to get me
57:04
on. We've got a nobody on so I'm
57:06
free. I've not got a sponsor.
57:09
I'm a slave to big cult cinema to.
57:13
Big camp. Yeah, big camp.
57:20
So, OK, Merrills, Merrills, Merrills.
57:22
This is the tougher one for me because I think that basically
57:28
where I want to give it all of its cred is in its lies.
57:33
And I think when we actually look at it from Merrills, there
57:36
are some. Some pretty.
57:38
Yeah, some some structural issues and you know what?
57:42
I couldn't have made a movie this good at 27 but.
57:46
I couldn't make it this good at 37.
57:48
Exactly. But what I would say is like
57:51
from from a point of big swings, from point of like visuals, from
57:57
a point of choices, strong acting decisions, You know, this
58:04
movie ticks a lot of marrow boxes.
58:08
I think I'm probably somewhere in like a 5 or 6 in terms of
58:14
Merrill's. Yeah, I think I'm there as well,
58:18
but I think I'm not a five. I think I'm a six.
58:21
And the reason that I think that is because I enjoyed this film
58:23
more than I enjoyed Heather's. Right.
58:26
Because, and Heather's was also a flop, which I didn't realise,
58:29
but critically hugely successful.
58:33
I found it over long, Yeah, this film, it's snappy, it's pacey,
58:38
it's fun throughout, even where it has its issues and tips that
58:43
don't make sense. So I think you can't achieve
58:47
that just with camp. You're right, you do.
58:49
Need to have some some technique in there, so a solid 6.
58:55
Tell you what, I'll meet you at a six.
58:56
Great. Six it is.
58:58
And so how about Liza's? Way up there.
59:02
Yeah, So let's just remind ourselves of the criteria
59:06
unlocks queer joy. I mean, yes, it basically
59:10
launched my gay ship. So, you know, I owe this movie
59:14
so much in that regard. And it continues to bring me joy
59:17
and. I'd imagine lots of people were
59:20
unfortunately turned lesbian by this film.
59:23
Carpet munchers. The world needs some, Yeah,
59:27
ongoing legacy. I mean, obviously as we've said,
59:31
it's yeah, it continues the legacy reverberates.
59:34
It created Mean Girls. So stupid.
59:36
It's genius, yes. Yeah, It's like got stupid baked
59:42
into its DNAII would say. Yeah, and it's really quotable
59:46
and stupid. It invents teen slang such as
59:50
I've just got to say you are to die to die.
59:54
That's cute. That is cute and underdog flop
59:58
vibes. I mean, it couldn't really have
59:59
flopped harder. It was an underdog movie that
1:00:02
that flopped hard. And another thing that it did
1:00:04
when we're talking about intentional and unintentional
1:00:07
camp, it did both. It did both.
1:00:09
It did both. It gave us so much intentional
1:00:12
camp. And then also whenever it kind
1:00:14
of flopped, it was also a bit of unintentional camp, and that's
1:00:17
also a delight. Yeah, it did, because it could
1:00:20
have been, as you say, John Watersy, but it tried to go
1:00:22
mainstream and didn't quite pull that side of things off.
1:00:25
So yeah, we got a bit of both. And 1 result of that is quite
1:00:30
variations in pitch of stylizedness of acting, which is
1:00:35
very, very camp. And that's what, you know, Mommy
1:00:38
dearest with Faye Dunaway doing so much more than everyone else,
1:00:42
that's we love to see someone who didn't get the memo that
1:00:46
everyone else got. So I think for me, Liza's, I'm,
1:00:51
I'm going to go in. I'm not going to go crazy, you
1:00:55
know, I think I'm going to go 8. OK.
1:00:59
And I am, I think I basically just kind of talked myself to
1:01:05
the edge of a 10 and I don't know, I don't know whether or
1:01:11
not to talk myself down off that ledge or not.
1:01:14
Babies vary. Things get zeros or 10s these
1:01:17
days, so. Right, she's the click bait of
1:01:19
the podcast. Yeah, I don't really know what
1:01:21
this movie could do to be camper.
1:01:24
I think that it could lose the middle plot points a little bit
1:01:29
or get them wrong more. Yes, I see.
1:01:33
So basically if we if we lost all of the Dooley boyfriend
1:01:38
stuff and replaced it with something either worse or
1:01:42
better. That was just more either yeah,
1:01:45
yeah, exactly. One of those two Either just
1:01:49
more Violet in different hairs. Yeah.
1:01:51
Which would be better? Yeah.
1:01:54
Oh, I like a more awful moralistic journey.
1:01:58
Which would be worse? And therefore better, Yeah, OK,
1:02:02
so fair I for that I will dock it 1 and I will give it a nine.
1:02:06
Very respectful. Yeah, but I would say that
1:02:10
certifies Jawbreaker as a camp classic, Yeah.
1:02:14
Right. We love to see it.
1:02:17
Thank you for going on this journey with me.
1:02:18
I really, really enjoyed talking about this movie.
1:02:20
Me too, thank you so much for introducing this into my brain.
1:02:24
I'm so glad I finally brought you one that was enjoyable for
1:02:28
you to watch. I think this might be the first
1:02:32
one that I've enjoyed, but what I love is that every film we
1:02:36
ever do is basically new to me. Right, Fab.
1:02:40
OK, so listen, stick around. My interview with Rose McGowan
1:02:42
is coming up next, but for now we shall say thank you so much
1:02:46
to Sue gives a fuck. Thank you for having me.
1:02:48
Sue before you go. Where can people follow you and
1:02:52
how can they support your work? Just find me on the socials, go
1:02:55
on Instagram. If there's not a show to
1:02:57
promote, there's probably a fundraiser for legal costs.
1:03:01
So at Sue gives a fuck, that is where you'll find me.
1:03:06
I have to also just second that. And I mean, your Instagram seems
1:03:10
like it's blowing up these days and your content is just so so
1:03:15
funny. So please, I implore listeners
1:03:20
to go and have a binge because you will not be disappointed.
1:03:24
Thank you. It is mostly musical comedy
1:03:26
about sex work, so if that's up your alley then head on over to
1:03:31
Atsu Gives a Fuck. You know the freaks who listen
1:03:33
to this podcast, and you know it is.
1:03:36
And without further ado, here's my interview with Rose McGowan.
1:03:44
Hello. Hi, Rose.
1:03:46
Hi. Welcome to Camp Classics.
1:03:48
We love a camp classic. How are you, sweetheart?
1:03:50
I'm really good and welcome to my home.
1:03:52
Welcome back to my home. Thank you, it's so lovely here.
1:03:55
Oh. Thank you, we've got Perlita
1:03:57
back. Perlita, Little Pearl.
1:03:59
Yeah, she's back and much happier this time because when
1:04:02
we first entered the UK they made me give her some kind of
1:04:05
crazy medicine. So she was quite cross that day.
1:04:08
Oh, right. And now she's.
1:04:09
She's full of beans. I mean, I just watched her hump
1:04:12
you. So she.
1:04:14
The energetic hug. She's picking up on the energy
1:04:16
in the home. I think she's.
1:04:18
Like I hear some humping happens here.
1:04:24
So Rose, obviously you are a prolific actress, activist,
1:04:29
author, artist, and that's not what we're here to talk about.
1:04:34
I love that I'm so kind of over talking about serious things.
1:04:39
I actually had to take kind of a five year time out from talking
1:04:42
out loud because I was, you know, there's a period where I
1:04:45
just it had to be very intense and very serious.
1:04:48
And everyone who interviewed me was very serious.
1:04:50
And I'm thinking I'm kind of like, I miss just being funny.
1:04:55
That was always kind of more my thing.
1:04:58
And so thank you. I'm happy to be back and just
1:05:01
talking about some camp. OK, I love that.
1:05:03
I love that. I actually completely relate.
1:05:05
I was involved in a high profile lawsuit and yeah, for a year
1:05:09
you're like, well, I'm just talking about this horrible
1:05:12
thing that happened and that's like nothing on on your story.
1:05:16
So let's just keep it light today.
1:05:18
It's a light podcast. It's a fluffy podcast.
1:05:21
We love a fluff. I have.
1:05:22
I have a fluffy dog next to me. We have.
1:05:24
We turn on our fluffy brains. Let's let's fluff, people.
1:05:27
Let's fluff. So obviously we cover camp
1:05:31
movies on this podcast. What do you think makes
1:05:34
something camp? How would you define camp?
1:05:38
How would I define it? I mean, there's two lanes of it,
1:05:41
right? There's intentional camp and
1:05:43
accidental. Of course, my preference is the
1:05:46
accidental, you know, a lot of the mommy dearest, which I think
1:05:50
everybody involved thought they were winning Oscars.
1:05:54
I mean, who doesn't love kind of a train wreck that's with with
1:05:58
some good makeup. But then there's also the ones
1:06:02
where it I, I think it's, I think it's joyful, even if part
1:06:08
of the joy is sadly at someone's expense of, you know, they're
1:06:13
being very, very serious, but it, it gives joy whereas or
1:06:17
something that is just that's, that's barely done in the
1:06:20
background. I don't know, I guess it's just
1:06:23
joy transmissions, right? Absurdity.
1:06:25
And also, like, sometimes there's very high art in camp,
1:06:28
incredible costume design, incredible hair, makeup,
1:06:30
incredible, ridiculous dialogue. And also just pushing, you know,
1:06:35
when I was very, very young, I was introduced to, like, you
1:06:40
know, the movies of Divine and like that, like, to me, I don't
1:06:43
know, having sex with the lobster on a couch and an
1:06:46
evening gown, That's not camp. I'm not sure what.
1:06:48
Or maybe it's just a documentary.
1:06:50
I don't know. But you, it's all a perception.
1:06:52
Hell yeah. You've actually like basically
1:06:55
perfectly summed up our definition on the podcast.
1:06:58
But I agree with you. I think there's something so
1:06:59
special about watching someone go for something really hard and
1:07:03
then accidentally make something completely different, right?
1:07:06
And that can just be the most joyous thing.
1:07:08
Yeah, it's been, it's interesting and and knowing, you
1:07:12
know, certain types of actors or directors that take everything
1:07:17
very seriously and aren't really particularly humor based.
1:07:20
Again, going back to say mommy dearest, you know, seeing that
1:07:23
become, I mean, I imagine that must have just been such a shock
1:07:27
to their system. To yeah, they were very upset
1:07:30
about. It very upset.
1:07:31
I mean, I mean, if you think about that one, and I'm sure
1:07:34
you've talked about that one many times, but I mean, just
1:07:38
that must have. I mean, I think it altered Faye
1:07:40
Dunaway's entire world for sure. But also if you look at the
1:07:43
actors in that, like the the kids that played the children,
1:07:47
they were terrible. They were terrible actors.
1:07:49
Sorry, they were terrible. But that's also what makes it
1:07:52
great. Because then you have this kind
1:07:54
of Oscar winning actress like oscaring her ass off.
1:07:57
And then there's like, but mom, you know, terrible line delivery
1:08:01
of the children. And then honestly, I think it
1:08:03
all lies in the hands of that director.
1:08:05
Exactly He. Was he was?
1:08:06
He was. Whoever whomever he was, he was
1:08:08
objectively terrible. Yeah, there's something I think
1:08:11
that often gets like mommy dears is a great example where Faye
1:08:14
gets all the blame. No, but she was directed.
1:08:17
She was directed to be that way. I mean, maybe she's difficult to
1:08:20
direct. Maybe she was like I'm doing it
1:08:22
this way or not or nothing but. Something I've noticed a lot is
1:08:25
that weaker directors, when they work with kind of a, a legacy
1:08:30
actor or someone who's won awards, they're very scared of
1:08:33
directing them right? And or they'll say more and more
1:08:38
and the person. So you never see what kind of
1:08:40
direction they're given, right? Or in fact, directing is is a
1:08:44
lot about parameters like this is the lane we're in going a bit
1:08:47
too far of the lane if the person has to have a really
1:08:49
solid vision, But also that directors the angle choices, how
1:08:53
he directed the camera, how he directed it was.
1:08:55
I mean, definitely whomever that dude was failed, but also thank
1:08:59
you. Yeah, but also thank you.
1:09:01
What a gift. Also, the gift that keeps on
1:09:04
giving. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:09:05
Because also I think her performance actually, you know,
1:09:10
if you just lensed her performance, it's it's very
1:09:13
good. It's a little too intense for
1:09:15
that movie. But like she's, she does a full
1:09:17
transformation and she's believable as John Crawford.
1:09:21
Right. If you had set up the world
1:09:22
around her properly, if she had, if all the other actors cast in
1:09:27
it were equally as as strong, or at least in that.
1:09:31
Intense or. Intense and you hadn't had these
1:09:34
insane camera angles or close-ups, which she probably
1:09:37
was not entirely aware of what they were doing.
1:09:39
I mean she would know she would know angles, but you don't know
1:09:42
like in the edit room what they're going to do.
1:09:45
So like he was doing a lot of like different like kind of
1:09:47
camera moves and things like that she wouldn't have actually
1:09:51
seen. And also there is that axiom
1:09:53
right that saying that it's never as good as the dailies and
1:09:57
never as bad as the rough cut. Oh, I don't know that.
1:10:00
Right, which is very true. You know when oftentimes if you
1:10:03
would see dailies as they when they used to have to screen
1:10:05
dailies for everybody the day after filming that you get the
1:10:08
film back from the day before and they play it.
1:10:11
So you know, that kind of key crew and some cast if they want
1:10:15
to see it and the director and the producer see it and
1:10:19
everything generally looks amazing.
1:10:20
My God, this is lighting in a bottle, right?
1:10:23
And then you put it together in the rough cut and you're like, I
1:10:26
am going to jump off a bridge. Really.
1:10:28
Yeah, cuz at that point it's desaturated of color.
1:10:31
Okay. You would maybe have a
1:10:35
production assistant in the corner.
1:10:36
If there's a phone ringing and it's a very serious phone call
1:10:39
scene and the person's like you just hear the voice in the
1:10:41
corner going ring, you know? It just no, no movie magic.
1:10:47
Basically no movie like whatever is the magic you had in your
1:10:50
head is now gone and you you're editing in all grayscale.
1:10:53
One of the last things I did in in Hollywood was direct my own
1:10:56
film, and luckily I was very aware of that situation.
1:11:01
Colour in that is amazing. Thank and Don, thank you.
1:11:04
Yeah, I worked really hard on that.
1:11:05
Colour is a huge, incredible, huge thing for me because it's
1:11:08
such a character, you know, people forget, like, everything
1:11:11
to me, one of the things, maybe I took it too seriously in in
1:11:15
other movies, but everything that you put on a screen is
1:11:18
information going into someone in the audience's mind.
1:11:21
So I always thought that there should be more thought about
1:11:23
that. And I wanted in my film, every
1:11:26
frame. You could stop it and it could,
1:11:28
without sound, tell the story and also be its own individual
1:11:32
art piece. Yeah, absolutely.
1:11:33
That was exactly the thought I had.
1:11:35
There's so many shots. There's a shot of her sat on the
1:11:38
couch and I was like, that would be so nice.
1:11:41
And a giant print on a wall like it would be gorgeous because
1:11:44
it's just so vibrant and lush and it really does give so much
1:11:47
character. Thank you.
1:11:48
I did the set design too. And also, but you can say so
1:11:51
much because her boyfriend in in this movie, a set in 1961 is
1:11:54
called Dawn and she comes from kind of a fancy, you know,
1:11:59
wealthier family. And he's a gas pump jockey.
1:12:02
So by putting him in a car that was 12 years older by him
1:12:06
sitting awkwardly on a very stiff but perfect couch from
1:12:09
1961, whereas their furniture would all be meant, you know,
1:12:12
maybe only a two years old maximum, whereas his, you know,
1:12:17
reality would be completely different.
1:12:18
And so he would sit kind of uncomfortably in his slightly
1:12:21
dirty jeans, you know? And I also wanted a level of
1:12:24
discomfort in that home with her very perfect mom.
1:12:30
Yeah, you tell him. Sis, Yeah, you tell him.
1:12:32
We recently covered Red Sonia on the podcast.
1:12:37
There's a new version out, but we were talking about the 85
1:12:40
version, and obviously you were attached to the remake for a
1:12:42
long time. There's that iconic poster of
1:12:45
you licking the bloody sword. I I I guess I'm wondering what
1:12:51
are your thoughts on the OG version, if you've seen it, if
1:12:54
you can remember. That's the thing, I saw it.
1:12:58
I definitely saw it. I don't remember much about it.
1:13:01
I remember liking her hair. Yeah, she has a really
1:13:04
incredible mullet. I remember thinking, oh, this
1:13:09
looks like the people around me at military school.
1:13:12
I remember thinking it looked like some Oregonian postal
1:13:17
workers that I'd seen, you know, that mullet exactly, but kind of
1:13:20
amped up and, and the loincloth, I believe, kind of thing was
1:13:24
cool. Don't remember much about it.
1:13:27
I did. Yeah.
1:13:29
Unfortunately, my arm was became paralyzed after an axe stunt
1:13:33
gone wrong on a movie I did called Planet Terror.
1:13:36
So I spent two years in this kind of seven surgeries in a
1:13:39
machine. I could no longer hold a sword.
1:13:41
But we did have for that poster, there's two versions of it and
1:13:45
they've actually taken one of them for something else.
1:13:47
I've seen it copied where she's I like the one where she's
1:13:50
kneeling. It's a profile of the head body
1:13:54
and the sword is held up in the arm and down and she's kneeling
1:13:58
on a big pile of skulls. It's sick.
1:14:02
And that was actually an amazing hairdresser I got named Peter
1:14:05
Savic, who say did Madonna's hair in the Express Yourself
1:14:09
video and like legend hair. He's he's like he's incredible.
1:14:14
Well beyond that and still working and and and still Peter
1:14:18
the pirate amazing. But that was actually, I believe
1:14:21
six weeks, one on top of it's. A lot of hair.
1:14:23
It's a lot of hair, right? Yeah.
1:14:26
And so, yeah, I didn't, you know, I could no longer wield
1:14:29
that sword. But I, I I.
1:14:32
But you created forever. The poster is there's a new one.
1:14:34
They finally made it. Yeah, there is a new one.
1:14:36
It's out on streaming now. I was talking to the director on
1:14:39
our last episode. OK, this is another wild jump,
1:14:42
but you have one of the most iconic and memorable death
1:14:46
scenes in the Scream franchise. Firstly, do you think that a
1:14:50
garage door could actually kill someone?
1:14:54
Well, that was a real garage door I went up and down in and
1:14:57
had it gone wrong, probably I would say yes.
1:15:01
The funny part is I'd run away from a military school years
1:15:04
before and then I decided after kind of sleeping in cemeteries
1:15:09
and, and having and going to well, that's about 12 1/2 and
1:15:13
dancing in these kind of underground gay nightclubs in
1:15:15
Portland, OR and, and all around the West Coast.
1:15:18
I mean, I had so many looks. It was so cool.
1:15:22
I was like kind of little mascot.
1:15:24
But at one point the 2 Queens I was in a kind of a flop house
1:15:28
with and the stripper named Tina, she suggested I needed to
1:15:31
pay $35 a month and I thought oh.
1:15:34
So then I I decided to break into my family's house and the
1:15:40
only way in it was around Christmas was through the cat
1:15:44
flap. Stop it.
1:15:45
It's quite small because it was for cats, but I fit and so I
1:15:48
knew even from looking at the size of the, the, the dog flap
1:15:52
in Scream, I was like, oh, I could No 3 of me could go
1:15:54
through that. I know I can do that.
1:15:56
So they actually had to nail my shirt into one side.
1:15:59
It was originally it was meant to be with the stunt woman, but
1:16:04
I'd costume Tatum like extensively and well, everything
1:16:09
there. She wears red and white pants in
1:16:11
the movie. Those were mine.
1:16:12
I had a boyfriend that was like a designer, I think it's called
1:16:15
Mondorama in downtown LA Very cool stuff.
1:16:17
And then the white boots were mine.
1:16:19
And then I went to the mall in Santa Rosa, CA for like I've had
1:16:22
to buy quadruples of of the tops and the skirts.
1:16:26
And I'd seen the storyboard for how they were planning on
1:16:28
shooting a sequence and I knew at one point the camera was
1:16:31
going to be on her, on her on her bum, as they say here in the
1:16:35
UK when she goes in to get the beer bottles before Ghostface
1:16:39
appears and she has her big fight with him.
1:16:43
And and I knew there would be a close up on the bum.
1:16:45
So when I saw this skirt that had this kind of psychedelic
1:16:48
swirl ending right at the, you know, the V and the BI thought,
1:16:52
ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, this is going to be on a big screen.
1:16:55
So I thought that would be a huge kind of audience prank.
1:16:57
Like step into my optic swirl like, oh, you want, you want a
1:17:00
close up? I'll give you a close up.
1:17:04
That's so good. I was always like, kind of like,
1:17:06
I don't know, like making weird pranks that only I knew about.
1:17:10
Right. I love that.
1:17:11
I can't believe you were allowed to do the costume.
1:17:14
Well. It must be quite rare.
1:17:17
I really, honestly, yeah. Wes Craven was badass.
1:17:20
I think he knew because he'd seen me.
1:17:23
You know, kind of. I remember him seeing me at the
1:17:27
Independent Spirit Awards when I was nominated for something.
1:17:29
Didn't win. Thank you.
1:17:31
But I was wearing orange plastic pants with a bell and these, the
1:17:37
white boots that I wore in the movie, actually, And then this
1:17:41
kind of strange crop top thing I he'd seen that I'd had kind of
1:17:45
like a fun style. Whereas I remember, and I feel
1:17:48
bad because it's in Scream lore. So whomever, I think her name
1:17:51
was Cynthia. I'm sorry.
1:17:53
I remember having to make the choice.
1:17:54
OK, there's this lady. I think it was like her first
1:17:57
really big film and she just pulled out.
1:18:00
She pulled out like faded overalls for Tatum.
1:18:02
And I was like, oh, fuck that. And then white chunky kids.
1:18:06
And I remember her saying they're very now.
1:18:09
And I just looked at her. I believe my head tilted and I
1:18:12
just said they're very never. And I remember at that point and
1:18:18
I was like, bitch, I'm such a bitch.
1:18:20
But I had a choice. I was like, OK, I can be this
1:18:23
lady's enemy. She can hate me or I can fail
1:18:26
this character. I'm not failing her.
1:18:29
I've already made my hair this color for her because I'd I'd
1:18:32
learned on my I was going in for like my 5th audition and I just
1:18:36
learned on the way in that they cast an F Campbell and I had
1:18:39
dark hair. So there we go.
1:18:41
By rules of movie law of movies, you cannot have two dark haired
1:18:44
people unless they're sisters. Famously, famously, you know
1:18:48
about. You know all about Dark Eye
1:18:50
Sisters. Yes, which is why I made my hair
1:18:53
red at one point in that. So yeah, the so I would just
1:19:00
found out that they cast Nevada and right as I was walking in
1:19:04
for the final kind of test, and there was Kathy Conrad, the
1:19:08
producer. They had one female producer.
1:19:10
And there was like, I don't know, probably 10 people in the
1:19:12
room, including Wes. And I looked at Kathy before I
1:19:16
said hello. And I looked at her and I said,
1:19:18
Kathy, who's your hairdresser? I've been wanting to go blonde.
1:19:21
Do you know who could turn me blonde?
1:19:23
And it was like seeing this collective light bulb go on in
1:19:25
all their heads, like this is possible.
1:19:28
And that's essentially really how I got cast in that.
1:19:31
It was just quick survival thinking.
1:19:34
I we often joke on this podcast about like the blondes and the
1:19:38
brunettes and like how it's such an annoying trope of like the
1:19:42
fun one, the sensible one, but like the idea that actually
1:19:44
translates into, you know, the casting room as well.
1:19:47
It's so it's quite depressing. The trope has to start
1:19:50
somewhere. It starts with them.
1:19:51
I mean, it's it's super strange. And there's there's an actress
1:19:55
uncharmed at the show I did and very legendary producer Aaron
1:19:59
Spelling. This was before I got there.
1:20:01
I guess she had cut bangs or a Fringe, as they say here.
1:20:05
And he said, I don't know if the audience will recognize you to
1:20:09
her. And I was, you know, I had the
1:20:11
thought of like, I mean, it's in a close up.
1:20:13
It's the same character. I think they will.
1:20:17
I think I. Think they can give them some
1:20:18
credit? Give them some credit.
1:20:20
That was part of the fun of a of a long running series is what
1:20:23
seeing what hairstyle the leads were gonna come back.
1:20:25
With that, yeah, right after. The summer.
1:20:28
There was a yeah on that show. There was a, I guess because
1:20:32
there've been a show called Felicity years before and it was
1:20:36
on the same network and she'd cut off all her hair and the
1:20:39
ratings tanked. So there became this edict and
1:20:42
and it was coming from like Paramount Studios, Viacom, which
1:20:45
was a massive corporation that owned the WB.
1:20:48
The network charm was on and it was in the contract that you
1:20:52
have to you're legally not allowed to change your hair
1:20:57
without legal approval and I was like piss off.
1:21:01
So of course, 1 summer I decided to go kind of like strawberry
1:21:05
blonde red and I I just was without asking of course.
1:21:09
And then there was much hair pulling well, as figuratively
1:21:15
and or maybe literally, I'm not sure.
1:21:19
But they said, how are we going to deal with this?
1:21:20
How are we going to explain this?
1:21:22
Like first of all, it's a show about magic, OK, And I'm
1:21:25
fighting demons and like there's anything could be explained
1:21:29
pretty easily. So I said, I don't know, just
1:21:32
say I was working on potions in the kitchen. 1 exploded, turned
1:21:36
my hair red. I liked it.
1:21:38
I come first. Like week later, I'm back on set
1:21:42
after a summer break and the first lines out of my mouth.
1:21:46
Another character. What happened to your hair?
1:21:48
Well, I was working on potions in the kitchen.
1:21:50
It exploded. It turned my hair.
1:21:52
I liked it. So yeah, exactly that.
1:21:57
I liked it too. I liked I honestly, I should
1:21:59
have kept that for longer. I.
1:22:00
Should I? Why couldn't you, your
1:22:02
character, have just gone to a hair salon to get her hair?
1:22:05
Right. No, because I mean, yeah, that
1:22:08
would not logically enter. They live in San Francisco,
1:22:11
first of all, OK. I mean, I was always mad because
1:22:14
we had this hideous. I hated this Wicker grandma
1:22:16
furniture and it was always getting exploded in every
1:22:19
episode. I'm like, these women are
1:22:21
they're in their 20s. Seriously.
1:22:23
In like in Spanish. Like my favorite is like Anserio
1:22:27
like serious. Are you serious?
1:22:28
Like, is this serious? Like they could just.
1:22:31
You're so right. Why do they have to have grandma
1:22:34
floral couches? Yeah, they were like replacing
1:22:36
their grandmas constantly. Wicker fruit like it's it's like
1:22:40
it's like they're living in this mausoleum of grandma hood and
1:22:43
thinking like why would they not just get like some dope ass sofa
1:22:47
slow that constantly change your environment in a way because
1:22:53
you're seriously not chained to anything.
1:22:55
Right. Yeah, that like basically AB fab
1:22:57
where she's always got a new kitchen.
1:22:58
Yeah, exactly like. You could have think of the
1:23:00
think of the possibilities. I did.
1:23:02
That was the problem. That was the problem with my
1:23:05
brain and that because I remember like there was, I had
1:23:08
only done film before that really.
1:23:10
And I was shocked that like, at the level of, I mean, in film,
1:23:15
it was like they they try to create world and an environment
1:23:19
around you or your character to make it real.
1:23:21
And luckily, I could kind of use that sometimes.
1:23:23
Also on Scream in Tatum's bedroom.
1:23:27
So you're too young for this, but there was a band called the
1:23:30
Indigo Girls. Oh.
1:23:31
I know the Indigo Girls. Are they Canadian?
1:23:33
They seem like they'd. Be Canadian.
1:23:34
They're Canadian coded for sure. They're.
1:23:37
Serious Canadian Speaking of the red Sonia mullet.
1:23:41
Closer to fine. So the production designers on
1:23:46
Scream, who did, you know, the posters on the wall and the set
1:23:50
signs, stuff like that, they kind of looked a bit like the
1:23:53
Indigo Girls from my memory. And on the walls of Tatum's
1:23:57
bedroom were posters of the Indigo Girls rocking out.
1:24:01
And I look at it when I get onto the bedroom set and I just, I'm
1:24:05
like, there's no way this popular high school chick, a
1:24:08
character, by the way, whose kind of life I had never lived
1:24:12
and only seen in movies or looking in through the window of
1:24:15
someone's house like a creeper, I'd never experienced that.
1:24:17
That was not my path, right? These were not people I knew.
1:24:21
It's not my environment. But I also I did know this girl
1:24:24
would not have. The Indigo Girls who would have
1:24:27
listened to what 9 What are what are we 97?
1:24:31
Yeah, probably around that. Oh, I don't know, but I hadn't
1:24:33
thought that far. But they I said I, I, she can't
1:24:36
have these in her room. Right, right.
1:24:38
Because that's what people don't understand is like, there's
1:24:40
things they'll see that they'll take in on a deeper level.
1:24:43
They might not, unless it's like a crazy eagle eye fan, which are
1:24:46
definitely out there. But it all adds up to inform the
1:24:50
character. And I always feel like with
1:24:52
filmmaking, you want to make kind of the least mistakes as
1:24:55
possible to keep people in the world you've created, right?
1:24:58
So there might be someone that's like, it would just somehow make
1:25:01
her character less believable, which is not my fault.
1:25:04
It's like that's not putting the posters on the wall is not my
1:25:06
job. And they said, but we've cleared
1:25:08
these with legal. How do we replace it?
1:25:10
And I'm like, kittens, go get me some kitten posters.
1:25:14
Hang in there. Put those on the wall, kittens.
1:25:16
That's what we'll do. So that's actually how they wind
1:25:18
up with kittens, Yes. Wow, wow, Tatum's a cat girl.
1:25:23
I mean, she had to be. Yeah, well, she had the cat
1:25:25
flap. No, that's not her house.
1:25:26
I don't remember. That was my house wherein I
1:25:30
stole all the I went in, stole the majority of the Christmas
1:25:32
presents and went. I don't even know how I knew
1:25:35
about this. Probably running around with
1:25:36
some underground people and found the pond local pawn shop
1:25:39
and pawned all the presents, pawned the video games pawned
1:25:42
and got the $35 I needed to pay stripper Tina for rent that
1:25:45
month. Work Tina, bless her heart.
1:25:47
I remember she had pop. My father had always said please
1:25:52
stay away from homes with popcorn ceilings.
1:25:55
What does that mean? Like you know when it looks like
1:25:58
sprayed almost like that chunky ceiling.
1:26:02
Kind of like stucco. Kind of, yeah, that, but it's
1:26:04
like kind of like if you're bouncing on a bed, you could
1:26:06
potentially hit your head on it and it cracks off.
1:26:09
That's like, I think known as popcorn ceilings, right?
1:26:11
And they're very, it just says a lot about the maybe the
1:26:14
situation you're in, right? I remember being like, oh fuck,
1:26:17
Stripper Tina has popcorn ceilings, but literally beggars
1:26:20
cannot be choosers. So here we are.
1:26:24
My favorite hair salon in in that in that region was called
1:26:27
hair. We are sorry.
1:26:30
I just side note, here we are. There's a a place near here
1:26:34
called Barbra Streisand. Very good.
1:26:37
That is very good, yeah. OK, wow, I I love it.
1:26:41
We can go anywhere. It turns out we're covering
1:26:45
Jawbreaker on the podcast this week, so I've got a couple
1:26:49
Jawbreaker specific questions, if that's OK.
1:26:52
I mean, firstly, how do you look back on this movie?
1:26:54
How do you feel about it? What I love about it, I mean,
1:26:58
besides all of it. And Darren Stein, the writer
1:27:01
director in the world he created, was 1.
1:27:03
He was just so and still is incredibly enthusiastic.
1:27:07
Like he's amazing. He's just incredible.
1:27:10
But he was he was very young. I was very young and I, I
1:27:14
remember there being an agent at my agency the time saying, I
1:27:19
don't know, he didn't know like my history, where I'd come from,
1:27:23
how I'd grown up, like my first boyfriend wore long skirts and
1:27:27
we would regularly get harassed, things thrown at us.
1:27:30
Like this isn't an region where there's probably nobody in 1000
1:27:34
miles that looked like us, you know, at all.
1:27:37
And, you know, I was like 12 1/2 and, and Paul like had these
1:27:41
beautiful long skirts always with like these little sandals
1:27:44
that he would wear. And I would do, we would do each
1:27:46
other's eye makeup. Oh.
1:27:47
That's so nice. I loved him.
1:27:49
He was beautiful. Anyway, so this agent was like,
1:27:55
I have to warn you, working with an out gay director might harm
1:28:00
your career. And I'm, and I, I remember
1:28:02
thinking, dude, what decade are you in?
1:28:04
I go, first of all, my first lead role was in Gregor Rocky's
1:28:08
movie. So you don't even, you haven't
1:28:11
even apparently seen your client's resume, which is slim
1:28:14
at this point. So fairly easy to note that I'm
1:28:18
not scared of things. Secondly, I was always very
1:28:21
terrified, I don't know rightfully so of like straight
1:28:24
people, particularly in Hollywood.
1:28:26
They just were very confusing and I didn't understand what was
1:28:29
happening and the weird signals and things like that.
1:28:33
And I was like, I think it's more dangerous to not do this.
1:28:36
Thank you. And luckily, Clint Culpepper, I
1:28:38
remember he was the executive on it and he it was at Sony and in
1:28:44
a subsidiary called Screen Gems. And I remember when Jawbreaker
1:28:47
came out, they had the choice to either promote a movie called
1:28:50
Can't Hardly Wait or Jawbreaker. And they're like, we're going to
1:28:54
throw our weight and money behind.
1:28:56
Can't Hardly Wait. I remember thinking you're going
1:28:58
to regret this, but maybe it was supposed to be how it was
1:29:02
because it did turn into like this classic camp, but also
1:29:07
good. I always believed if you're
1:29:09
doing something somewhat campy to maybe not on the level of
1:29:14
Joan Crawford, but you know that character is not aware that it
1:29:17
is. And I based it on a very to me,
1:29:20
somewhat campy movie called Leave Her to Heaven.
1:29:22
I based Courtney, my character on that.
1:29:25
It's a beautiful actress named Jean Tierney, like one of the
1:29:28
most beautiful women of all time in in cinema for sure in in and
1:29:34
she has I guess now you'd probably call it borderline
1:29:38
personality disorder slash psychopathy.
1:29:40
But at one point her her new husband has a a son already.
1:29:47
The son is in a wheelchair, I think his name is Johnny, let's
1:29:51
say. And she takes Johnny out on the
1:29:53
lake in a in a in a anew pushes Johnny over the side or and he's
1:29:59
like help, help, help. And she just looks.
1:30:04
She has this incredible like stone face, beautiful.
1:30:10
She just like side eyes Johnny and paddles away later when the
1:30:14
husband's like, but why? Why did you do this, darling?
1:30:18
We needed more time alone together.
1:30:21
And that right there was the exact for me because I, I had a
1:30:24
big love of, of classic film. My father took us to revival
1:30:28
theaters, probably because there's so many of us kids and
1:30:30
it was only like $2.00 to get into them.
1:30:32
But subsequently I had this really great education in
1:30:35
Classic Cinema. And so to me that was just that
1:30:40
was the, the, the origin of of Courtney for me, like how to
1:30:43
play her like Darling. We needed more time alone
1:30:46
together. I mean, it's very that.
1:30:48
It's just logic. Yeah, I was going to ask you a
1:30:50
bit about that actually, because obviously, yeah, Jawbreaker has
1:30:53
this very knowing winky intentional camp vibe.
1:30:58
But like, how do you approach that when you're starring in it?
1:31:02
Do you take you just? Have to really, we needed to
1:31:04
take it seriously. You.
1:31:05
Have but you do. Just take it seriously.
1:31:07
Well, I also because. The character, Yeah.
1:31:10
How does that work? I mean, to me, it was just, I,
1:31:14
I've met a few psychopaths in my life and they're, they're not
1:31:16
really usually aware that they're psychopaths or if they
1:31:19
are, everybody else is wrong. And this is how this is just
1:31:23
logic. This is their logic.
1:31:25
It might be skewed logic. Personally, if there was a jaw
1:31:30
break or two in my perfect dream world and Darren, you know, good
1:31:34
for him. He's making a musical of it and
1:31:36
doing all that fabulous alternate reality.
1:31:38
But in my reality of it, I would do it like she has been
1:31:44
institutionalized and in an area where the Kardashian types live.
1:31:52
I think it's called Hidden Hills or something like that or
1:31:54
whatever the air Calabasas. That's where they live in
1:31:56
California, right? Let's say she gets out of there
1:31:59
and and now she has to she's like on the outs but has to
1:32:02
become queen bee of the Calabasas juicy loving crowd or,
1:32:07
you know, skims wearing people and and just wreaks havoc.
1:32:11
That's my dream. Oh God, someone green light it
1:32:14
immediately. I mean, to me, that's just like
1:32:15
that just seems like she gets out, takes off her glasses,
1:32:19
surveys the situation and the reality TV show, all that stuff
1:32:22
that's happened since she's been locked up.
1:32:25
And it's just like, OK, how do I Queen be this situation so good?
1:32:29
Let's go into operation mode. Let's win.
1:32:32
Cue the slow motion walk sequence, right?
1:32:34
And go. I I.
1:32:39
The the other one I was thinking of was obviously Planet Terror,
1:32:41
which again has that like very knowing camp.
1:32:45
But again, do you just go into a character like that and you do
1:32:50
it seriously? I did it seriously and it was
1:32:53
very much like so that director and Quentin Tarantino, because
1:32:58
they they kind of did them side by side and I was in both Death
1:33:01
Proof and Planet Terror and it was an homage to they I don't
1:33:08
again, I don't know if in the 70s when they saw these movies,
1:33:11
because they used to go to these theaters and they were called
1:33:13
grindhouse films. They called them grindhouse
1:33:16
because they would just grind them out and they would send the
1:33:18
real a film around. It would go like all over the
1:33:22
country. They would maybe have two or
1:33:24
three copies of the of the movie.
1:33:26
And let's say there was a projectionist in Ohio and he
1:33:31
liked the sex scene in one of these movies or he thought like
1:33:34
this guy or girl was hot. So he would could cut the frame
1:33:37
out, manually take it home and then just kind of glue the film
1:33:41
back together. So then that or put like a, a
1:33:45
piece of negative film in there that would just or there be a
1:33:49
real jump. So let's say the movie makes its
1:33:52
way from New York to California. And by the time it plays in LA
1:33:55
theaters, there's a it'll a card would just come up and say
1:33:58
missing reel because someone along its way had cut it out to
1:34:02
take it home and maybe jerk off to it or who knows what, right?
1:34:06
They had a whole collection, probably.
1:34:07
So that's kind of how we did it. And I approached it, of course,
1:34:11
because again, I think if you have this completely insane
1:34:14
world, I mean, even in Planet Terror, I remember him wanting
1:34:17
the director to, to break all the rules of, you know, the kind
1:34:20
of sacrosanct, the, the rules and film making of things you're
1:34:23
not supposed to do, which is you're never supposed to kill an
1:34:25
animal. They even killed like the dog,
1:34:27
which did not really get killed. But I argued, I was like,
1:34:29
please, please don't kill the dog.
1:34:31
We have to kill the dog. I'm like, I understand, you
1:34:35
know, But it was, it's interesting because the region I
1:34:37
first moved to where I live in Mexico, I was walking down the
1:34:41
beach one night in 2020 and I'm like, why did I, why did I move?
1:34:46
Why did I have like, why did I come here?
1:34:49
And then I thought, Oh my God, it's because in the movie, Bruce
1:34:52
Willis is a general there's a laboratory leak.
1:34:56
People in society get sick. They turn into these kind of
1:34:59
mutants. And I lead a band of survivors
1:35:03
to this exact region. It's where we filmed the end of
1:35:05
that movie, the survivors. And I thought, Oh my God, I'm
1:35:09
copying a movie that I was in. I have this strong like
1:35:14
survival, go there, go there. And I'm like, OK.
1:35:17
And then months later I'm like, why?
1:35:18
Why did I? Why was that signal so strong?
1:35:21
Oh, wait, because this is where the I had to deliver the
1:35:24
dialogue about the band of I'm like, Oh my God, my brain.
1:35:28
You just need a a rocket launcher on your leg.
1:35:31
I mean, at times, believe me, I have wanted.
1:35:33
That I believe it. I believe it.
1:35:35
OK, We talked about Courtney Shane a bit.
1:35:37
Who are your other some of your other favorite female villains?
1:35:41
Female villains? Oh that's a good question.
1:35:45
I always preferred playing villains far more.
1:35:47
You have fun. I just I I had AI love charmed.
1:35:51
I love, you know, some of the people on it and and the people
1:35:54
I've met through that and and the legacy and that that's like
1:35:57
interwoven and families lives. But that was honestly one of the
1:36:00
hardest jobs I ever had because there were a couple episodes
1:36:05
where she turned evil. I love those.
1:36:07
There's the evil enchantress love that one.
1:36:10
That was always like, I don't know why.
1:36:12
I just always knew how to play those, you know, And there was
1:36:15
just it was, it was. And I realized also with playing
1:36:20
evil, Sorry, I know I'm not answering your question.
1:36:22
I'm buying time to think. But playing evil, it has the
1:36:26
same beats as comedy because I realized that once when I think
1:36:30
it was in jawbreaker, actually, when I delivered the lines to
1:36:33
Fern Mayo, which are my favorite lines in the movie, when she's
1:36:37
like, because it's so mean. She's like, you're the shadow,
1:36:41
we're the sun. And then they would take cut and
1:36:45
I would start cackling. And then I realized, Oh,
1:36:48
actually playing like, I think I love it because it has the same
1:36:51
exact beats. If you know comedic beats and
1:36:53
how to hit those lines. Well, it's the same beats,
1:36:56
right? And it's, it's almost like
1:36:58
operatically evil, this very fine line between that and
1:37:02
comedy. Why do you think queer?
1:37:03
People love the villains so much.
1:37:06
Smarter, I had to whisper that. But yes, smarter, I think,
1:37:10
because it's I think because when you've been sold the lie of
1:37:13
what is normal and you've basically been born like what
1:37:19
like kind of either at 1st and hopefully that's moving moved
1:37:22
away from that where it was internalized that it was odd
1:37:26
that it was inside you, that it was against the grain.
1:37:29
But in fact, kind of it's an oppositional way of viewing the
1:37:34
world to me because I grew up. That was how I grew up.
1:37:39
Like, you know, called a freak, a weirdo run from big trucks
1:37:44
trying to kill you just because you look different.
1:37:46
Like they change my name is Rosa Ariana.
1:37:48
They changed it the first day of military school to Rose.
1:37:51
It's on my documents. I didn't even understand.
1:37:53
Actually, I understood English, but I didn't really understand
1:37:57
what was happening. And there's a real sliding doors
1:37:59
moment, right? But anyway, what I mean by that
1:38:01
is like the people that were all seemed united against me were
1:38:06
terrifying, but also villains. And so to get that, but they
1:38:12
weren't fun villains necessarily.
1:38:14
So to get to have the pressure release of like a villain that
1:38:17
you can actually root for and then that villain, if they're
1:38:20
destroying normalcy, fuck yeah, even better.
1:38:23
I mean to me like. Yeah, you've just said it so
1:38:26
well. You've said it so well, that's
1:38:28
like when when I started doing drag, I was always interested in
1:38:32
in playing like, yeah, the bitch.
1:38:34
I think that's something I've kind of moved away from a bit
1:38:37
because I actually kind of start to see how that's also a limited
1:38:40
view. And and you don't want to fall
1:38:42
into like a misogynistic trap of like only worshipping the the
1:38:48
feminine who's strong meaning and powerful.
1:38:51
I appreciate that, but there is something so cathartic.
1:38:56
Just more fun. And it's also because a lot of
1:39:00
times people that are unique, that are artists to kind of
1:39:04
navigate in the world, There's a level of masking when you're in
1:39:09
in your, I call it civilian face clothes, right?
1:39:14
There's a level of having to pretend like you're not like
1:39:18
other people, but that you can get by in that world.
1:39:21
But it's quite exhausting. And so to not have to wear that
1:39:26
mask and to get to go far into the unmasked, Yeah, you know,
1:39:31
it's it's. And to legally break all the
1:39:37
rules and be celebrated for it. And also just like, say what you
1:39:41
actually think. But deliver.
1:39:44
Get power from that, deliver it in such a way that it's
1:39:46
celebrated. Whereas when I I'm dressed like,
1:39:51
you know, normal version and not like Courtney or not like
1:39:54
anybody or maybe at times Rose, who's not even really me.
1:40:00
You know, it's I, I relate to to what you're saying and you know,
1:40:04
it's for me, a lot of my career, especially like coming out of
1:40:09
charmed. Before charmed, we dressed
1:40:13
ourselves. We did our own hair and makeup.
1:40:15
I look fucking cool. I had really cool taste.
1:40:17
And then after spending years. Being dressed kind of to appeal
1:40:25
to middle America and beyond. I got really, really lost like
1:40:31
my North Star of who I was, was just like, I was like, what?
1:40:33
And then I came out and at that point they literally said like
1:40:36
everybody has to have a publicist $6000 a month.
1:40:39
Everybody has to have a stylist, $6000 a month.
1:40:41
Everybody has to have a hair and makeup artist.
1:40:43
And I, and I just, I at that point, I'd already really quite
1:40:46
forgotten, like my, my closet was so strange.
1:40:50
Like later on I would be like, wait, why did I buy this?
1:40:53
Oh, wait, that's that character. That's not me.
1:40:55
Like I just got lost. Because if you're replacing for
1:40:58
12 to 17 hours a day for pretty much five years straight,
1:41:02
everything you would think of do people you would be around.
1:41:06
I'd never been around kind of a money machine in a way where
1:41:10
that was the not so much the cast, but a lot of the machine
1:41:15
around it. That was the goal was just that
1:41:18
so like on the table, instead of making it say, like we were
1:41:21
talking about real for for the characters like, and why these
1:41:25
young women would have horrible grandma furniture when they
1:41:28
could have anything. I mean, they could have like
1:41:31
Henry the Eighth's like giant Tudor chair.
1:41:33
You could like, they could have had so much fun in that way too,
1:41:36
right? And in some ways I understand
1:41:38
why because it brings kind of a homey thing to the viewer.
1:41:40
I get it, consistency. But like they had a coffee table
1:41:44
book that always drove me insane on set.
1:41:47
It made me so fucking furious every time I saw it.
1:41:51
I was like, what is this fuckery?
1:41:53
And it was like nothing is real and no one's trying, no one
1:41:56
cares. What's the coffee table book?
1:41:58
Dude, it was The Power of Pittsburgh, a coffee table book
1:42:03
about Pittsburgh, PA in young women's house.
1:42:09
What? The fuck living in San
1:42:11
Francisco. Living in San Francisco, the
1:42:13
power of Pittsburgh. What?
1:42:18
And I would literally just, I would every time I had a scene
1:42:21
in that in in that living room, I would just, I would hone in on
1:42:24
that and I was like, you son of a bitch.
1:42:28
And I would just get furious. The whole entity around me, the
1:42:31
whole machine of like, I could literally be working at a pencil
1:42:35
factory and there was a lot of care from like the actors and
1:42:39
people. And I imagine on some level at
1:42:41
times the writers, things like that.
1:42:43
But like just stuff like that. I'm like, way to Take Me Out of
1:42:46
this, of this scene that I'm supposed to be playing.
1:42:48
Like is real. Like I'm this magical realism
1:42:51
thing that I'm doing. But then I look over, there's
1:42:54
goddamn Pittsburgh on the table, a place that, you know, Although
1:42:58
to be fair, a couple years ago I found myself in Pittsburgh and I
1:43:01
was like. And.
1:43:02
The power. You're like, I get it now.
1:43:08
Now I understand why some 20 something girls in San Francisco
1:43:12
definitely would have the no no. There was cool architecture
1:43:15
though. Sure, but I mean, come, come,
1:43:18
come. Yeah, It would never have
1:43:20
occurred to me how dressing as a character for four or five years
1:43:25
could really influence you. And you go from someone with
1:43:28
like one of the most iconic, I'd say 90s fashion looks, right?
1:43:32
Too. Very confused.
1:43:33
Fishnet dress like one of the moments.
1:43:35
That was actually beating, was it?
1:43:37
It was beating. And in the limo on the way
1:43:39
there, I had to kneel, not because I was giving a blowjob,
1:43:43
but because I didn't want, you know, the Gretel butt.
1:43:47
Yes. Yeah.
1:43:48
Like the print? Yes, correct you.
1:43:51
The trick is kneeling. OK?
1:43:53
Like kneeling. And I only wore that on the red
1:43:56
carpet and then changed into a different outfit for the rest of
1:43:58
the show because, yeah, I knew I would have to sit.
1:44:01
And then you get up and then you have all these.
1:44:03
It's like sitting on a chair with it, the lines.
1:44:05
And that's not a good look. No, no, no.
1:44:07
Wow, wow. That was also a huge prank.
1:44:10
That was also a couple things. That was one I'm going with
1:44:13
Manson. I got to win.
1:44:16
Obviously this is going to be like a big fashion showdown
1:44:19
between us and two. Then I'd found out that the
1:44:21
photographers make double. I was always like wondering why
1:44:24
they would always yell over the shoulder.
1:44:26
So like that would be like they wanted the shot of your head
1:44:29
turning but also your butt at the same time.
1:44:32
And it turned out it's because it triples the value of the
1:44:34
photograph that they sold. If they get butt and face at the
1:44:37
same. Time, correct.
1:44:38
So then I'm like, oh, you want it?
1:44:40
All right, let's see what you're going to do.
1:44:41
It's kind of like in the the end of Gladiator and they're like,
1:44:44
are you not entertained? You know, like that kind of
1:44:46
thing, like, oh, what are you going to do now?
1:44:48
It's. It's I mean.
1:44:50
I didn't quite understand the concept at that point.
1:44:53
We were just going into like real electronic media and it
1:44:55
living forever. I had not didn't have that
1:44:57
foresight right then. The slut shaming was insane and
1:45:01
it went on and on and on. It was global.
1:45:03
It was like as if I disturbed the entire world's view of like
1:45:07
and I was just but something I have seen and it certainly, you
1:45:11
know, I mean, they could call it an homage, although almost
1:45:13
nobody has said this is, you know, the inspiration for this.
1:45:18
But it's quite obvious when people dress like that for
1:45:20
things. But what I have noticed why it
1:45:22
never quite even if it's a a beautiful dress or look, I think
1:45:26
probably Rihanna's was the best. That was a beautiful dress, but
1:45:30
always down to the level of kind of turning on the invisible
1:45:37
crowd kind of way. And I did it as more like, you
1:45:42
want to play, let's play. Like chicken?
1:45:44
Yeah, like, yeah. Is this what you want?
1:45:46
All right, let's go. What are you going to do now?
1:45:49
How are you going to cover this in your family magazines, in
1:45:51
your family papers over breakfast?
1:45:54
What are you going to do? What are you going to say?
1:45:57
And it was, it was like kind of like, like, you know, like all
1:46:00
the, it was kind of like this point of like all the people had
1:46:04
called me weirdo freak for like growing up.
1:46:06
And then all of a sudden I was beloved, so to speak, by the
1:46:10
public at the same time that my interaction with a lot of the
1:46:13
public had been quite terrifying for a lot of my life.
1:46:17
Right. And so you're like, you don't
1:46:18
actually know me. Right.
1:46:19
And I was like, OK, let's go. And then there's always the
1:46:23
subculture that I was with and was with me until that kind of
1:46:28
got weaponized later. But it was very much of like a
1:46:33
lot of big challenge, like how you going to deal with this
1:46:36
mommy and daddy? Let's go.
1:46:37
And I guess at one point it like probably turns off so many
1:46:40
people or like turns off the right people and then also wins
1:46:43
you so much credibility with the right people or the people that
1:46:46
you know will get it. Oh, definitely.
1:46:49
But I didn't, I mean, I never really thought too far in
1:46:53
advance, to tell you the truth, I wasn't, I was not prepared for
1:46:57
the I just didn't really. I, I wouldn't, I didn't think it
1:47:02
through. I probably, I would have done it
1:47:03
anyway, honestly, I can't see any other way of being.
1:47:06
I mean, I'm just the way my brain works.
1:47:08
But yeah, the, the intense slut shaving was quite prolific and
1:47:12
prolonged and, but I, but I think the big difference between
1:47:16
that and the, and the different versions of it that I've been
1:47:19
worn since, it was just that I, I didn't, later on when my brain
1:47:24
kind of got quite lost in the Hollywood look, I stopped even
1:47:27
looking at myself because I was so used to getting hair and
1:47:30
makeup and some other clothes that I hated put on me every
1:47:33
day. I stopped even noticing what I
1:47:34
looked like. I didn't, I just looked
1:47:37
basically weird. I didn't recognize myself.
1:47:39
So what's the point of even looking right?
1:47:41
And that's how I wind up just looking weirder and weirder and
1:47:44
weirder, like to me, to my eye, and kind of more and more lost
1:47:48
in a way. And then, you know, obviously at
1:47:51
one point I woke up and got righteously pissed off.
1:47:53
Right, right. Yeah, and I was like, I'm going
1:47:56
to burn you down. Yeah, that's so cool.
1:47:58
But also, being stalked for that long will eventually piss you
1:48:00
off enough to do so too. Of course.
1:48:02
Like, none of us, none of this sort of had to come to this
1:48:04
point if you would have just left me alone, right?
1:48:06
And not dismantled project after project or bought off the media
1:48:09
to say probably it was part of the slut shaming, all of that
1:48:11
kind of stuff. Yeah, it's a bit complicated.
1:48:13
And also, I guess the time I mean, something that is positive
1:48:17
about now is that if, if a moment like that happens, you've
1:48:20
got the opportunity to speak to people directly and I guess.
1:48:23
No, there's nothing. No, you had nothing.
1:48:25
So let's say you even did an interview, you do an interview,
1:48:28
but then the headline, they would put the tagline of it
1:48:31
would completely spin it a certain way before anybody,
1:48:35
let's say they even did read the interview, right?
1:48:37
Rose, before we wrap up, any suggestions for camp movies that
1:48:41
we should cover on this podcast? Well, have you done Superman 2?
1:48:45
We have not done Superman 2, we have done Super Girl.
1:48:49
Was that Helen Slater? Yes.
1:48:51
I never saw. And Faye Dunaway or?
1:48:54
Her that sound, that sound tribute Sarah Douglas, that's
1:49:01
her name. So when I was probably, I don't
1:49:05
know, 11 and a half 12. I don't know if it when Superman
1:49:09
2 came out, but whenever I saw it didn't mean that's when it
1:49:12
came out. But when I saw it, I remember I
1:49:15
was living in this, as I called it, butt fuck Oregon and this
1:49:19
everyone used to always say, Oh, aren't there always hippies and
1:49:22
peace and love in Oregon? I'm like, not in the one I knew
1:49:25
and the one I knew it was trucks made the wheels extra big.
1:49:30
All of them had guns. They were often shoot at me with
1:49:33
rock salt. It was like guns that shot
1:49:35
squares. Of salt.
1:49:37
Oh yeah, this place was like insane.
1:49:39
But I did have one of my all time favorite lines at this one
1:49:43
military school. They were screaming at me like
1:49:45
ugly freak as I was walking down the hall and I kind of walked
1:49:49
through like a queen and some girl behind me goes, how does
1:49:53
she do that? And I turned and I remember
1:49:56
thinking I'm breaking the 4th wall.
1:49:58
I already knew that term and I turned.
1:49:59
I said it's simple. You don't exist in my reality.
1:50:02
Oh my God. And I remember watching her 11
1:50:04
year old brain just kind of splatter on the wall.
1:50:07
But I would definitely at that time my fashion icon was Sarah
1:50:11
Douglas. Believe that's her name in
1:50:14
Superman 2 when the three people in all black like land on earth
1:50:18
with their upside down cross and they're just here to cause
1:50:20
mayhem. The Krypton like the
1:50:22
Kryptonians, I think. I don't remember anything about
1:50:25
it except for her cool ass outfit.
1:50:27
I think Terence Stamp, who rest in peace just died.
1:50:30
He was amazing. He was odd.
1:50:32
And then there was the kind of big, you know, he's probably the
1:50:36
sweetest person in the world, but meant to look scary.
1:50:38
And then this British actress who had like jet black hair and
1:50:44
what's like the killer all black outfit.
1:50:46
And she was just they just stood there like holding their power.
1:50:49
And I remember like, Yep, I have to, I have to show you a picture
1:50:53
I found of me. It was my 12th birthday and I
1:51:00
had. She's in Superman 3.
1:51:02
Was it 3? I know.
1:51:04
No, not 2. Yes, she's got the like pics.
1:51:07
It's not really a Pixie cup, but it's like.
1:51:08
You have to see the full fashion look.
1:51:10
And it's kind of like a mini mullet, sort of.
1:51:13
Yeah, yeah, very cool. Yes, there.
1:51:16
And there's that scene of them when they all get sucked into
1:51:19
the negative zone and they're like all spinning into a vortex.
1:51:22
I mean God damn I get sucked into the negative zone almost
1:51:24
every day. That's why we avoid media and.
1:51:27
Yeah, she's got like the V-neck. It's almost like kind of a
1:51:30
karate uniform. No, but if you see like like
1:51:34
it's full, yeah, I. Hear that?
1:51:35
Oh, with a split. Sleeve.
1:51:37
But if you see them when they land, so this is obviously not
1:51:40
quite that, but this was my look.
1:51:42
This is me on my 12th birthday. Oh my God, yeah.
1:51:47
Wow. On this giant sand dune at the
1:51:50
beach in Oregon which I was protesting being made to go to a
1:51:52
beach. Listeners, I am looking at a
1:51:54
side by side of Sarah Douglas in Superman 3 and Rose McGowan at
1:51:58
age 12. And honestly it's the same
1:52:00
photo. That is incredible.
1:52:03
Okay, well, Superman 3 on the list.
1:52:06
Thank you. Thank you for also telling me
1:52:08
it's three and not 2. Now I know she was.
1:52:10
Incredible. Thank you so much for coming on
1:52:12
the podcast. It's honestly such an honor and
1:52:14
a treat. Thank you sweetheart, I had such
1:52:16
a blast. What beautiful stories?
1:52:18
What are you working on at the moment?
1:52:19
And. Well, I'm actually in London.
1:52:22
I'm collaborating on this track because of my album Planet 9.
1:52:27
I I love music. I've always loved music and I
1:52:30
mean, who doesn't really? But I like using my voice in
1:52:33
different ways. And, and I'm kind of, you know,
1:52:36
I realized after talking to trees and plants and and animals
1:52:40
for the last five years, it was time to see if I could start
1:52:42
talking to humans again. And, and also I felt like with
1:52:45
my little fluffy dog, she was replacing the volleyball and cat
1:52:49
and castaways that was called. I was like, wait a second.
1:52:54
Minus the scraggly beard, I very much resemble Tom Hanks in
1:52:58
castaway. Oh my God, you're my Wilson.
1:53:01
It's time to put on some shoes. Right.
1:53:03
And so now you're dipping your toe back into London.
1:53:07
And civilized society. Wow.
1:53:09
Well, let's. Not get carried away.
1:53:12
Well, I did wind up at a party of yours first, so yeah.
1:53:14
What? We're just kidding.
1:53:15
We're so beautiful. Gorgeous house and garden.
1:53:17
It's been really lovely. Thank you for teaching me about
1:53:19
the air fryer. You know what, if that could be
1:53:21
my legacy, I'm very happy, Chicken.
1:53:25
Thank you so much. And yeah, I can't wait to have
1:53:28
you back again soon. Love that.
1:53:30
Thanks, Rose. Get away from her, you bitch.
1:53:34
Classic. He was in the Amazon with my mom
1:53:38
when she was researching spiders right before she died.
1:53:44
I. Thought you can't prostitute or
1:53:48
dog? I used to love doggy chow.
1:53:52
I used to love doggy chow too.