Latest / Art of the Question / Psychological Tricks of World's Biggest Brands - Phil Barden - #48

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Psychological Tricks of World's Biggest Brands - Phil Barden - #48 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: Phil, thank you so much for coming on the show. I think you have one of the most interesting professions there there is. ⁓ and I know that because ⁓ my father used to be in advertising as well. So I grew up in a household where ⁓ talking about marketing, talking about advertising was was very common. So it's a topic that I find really interesting and yeah, I was really looking forward to it. I think what would make sense as a starting point is to kind of understand ⁓ when you first got into marketing and what made you fall in love with it because you've been doing this for for a very long time now. Yeah, thanks. And thanks for having me on, Judas. It's a Pleasure to be here and good to hear that that your dad was in advertising. ⁓ yeah, so I I started to be interested in advertising and marketing when I was at school. ⁓ a friend of mine and I used to create things like the school magazine. We used to write comedy sketches for school theatre productions. And my friend said I'm I'm he said to me, I'm going into advertising because he had a friend who was a copywriter in London. And ⁓ I had no idea what copywriting was, but I found out and I thought that sounded interesting, but I wanted to do something that was a bit more tangible in terms of product. So I chose a degree course which ⁓ you had to be sponsored by a company to get on the course. And ⁓ that meant that you spent six months at college and then six months working. So I spent my first six months in a factory making biscuits and then the f and then the next year six months ⁓ out on the road selling biscuits and then in the third year ⁓ six months marketing biscuits and then the company offered me a full time role ⁓ on graduation and for me this was just amazing because I'd got that ability now to to put the theory into practice and I could see how the time I spent in production and s and sales really helped as well. ⁓ give me a better understanding of of the marketing role within a within a business. And I stayed there for a few years and then I ⁓ left and joined Unilever on their intake scheme. Unilever is you know one of the great global marketing companies and ⁓ I spent over sixteen years there. And I just loved it. I loved the the what I really loved was the ability to take something and create. So for example, new product development. ⁓ I created a range of Easter eggs while I was at the biscuit company. I created a new ⁓ bouillon cube for the OXO brand, ⁓ but probably made more money than than I will ever see in my lifetime. But it was just really rewarding to start with a thought and insight and turn that into something tangible. And then seeing the physical product being able to touch it and hold it and say, I did that, that I found really rewarding. So that that's really what gave me my love of marketing. Right. I can imagine that that must be such a cool feeling to have an idea and and see that idea literally come to life and see it in the stores, ⁓ see it in your own home. I Yeah, I'm sure that must be such a such a cool cool feeling. So I saw indeed that you spent a a lot of ⁓ time at Unilever. ⁓ but then of course you also started your own firm ⁓ I believe also around fifteen or sixteen ⁓ years ago. What made you decide to start your your own marketing firm? Yeah, so after Unilever, I spent some time at DiAgio, the ⁓ the world's biggest drinks business. And then I went to T Mobile. So it was quite different, a service brand instead of a physical product. ⁓ and while I was at T Mobile, I commissioned research in 12 European countries because I I was the international brand VP and I had to relaunch and reposition the brand in those countries. And the research results were strange. They just didn't make intuitive sense. And it worried me because I had put a a a lot of my personal equity into the research. It was my recommendation and it was a very expensive six-figure sum to spend on research. And this was going to be the foundation of the relaunch. So I was I was very worried for my job. And someone in my team ⁓ said, You need to meet a couple of guys. And I got them in. And one of them is a neuroscientist and the other is a psychologist. And we started talking about the research and I showed them the methodology and and the output and they said, Well, we're not surprised you've got strange results because honestly this this research methodology is is nonsense. Mm-hmm. And that I thought, wow, hang on. This research methodology is used by multinational companies and it's been around for many years. Why are you saying it's nonsense? And then they started to explain to me how the brain makes decisions, how we process ⁓ things, and why the particular methodology that we were using, which was an a reflective self-report, ⁓ just was not a true was not a true measure of what motivates human beings. What people say and what people do can be very different things. And as humans, there's a book actually written by an academic called Strangers to Ourselves. We are very unreliable witnesses to our own behavior and we make things up. So when you ask people Why did you buy Brand X? They'll tell you why, but it's it's made up. It's it's plausible, it seems fine, but honestly, that people don't know the true motivations that lie that lie within. And these guys introduced me to a whole new world. Two hundred years worth of scientific and academic study on human behavior and decision making. And I came to realise that there was something very, very important in this. Because after all marketing and advertising are all about behaviour change. You want people to buy your brand or switch or buy more or tell other people or share things online. It's all about human behaviour. And these guys coming from science and academia with two hundred years worth of study honestly knew more about human behaviour and decision making than the commercial world did. So I commissioned them to work on the relaunch and used their methodology, which is a a true measure of the so called system one mental processes in the brain. So the fast, intuitive, spontaneous ⁓ processes that really drive the vast majority of our behaviour. And the results that we got ⁓ we then turned into a new brand proposition that was translated to an advertising brief. And Sarchi, the agency, came up with an idea which was ⁓ first shown in the UK. it was a flash mob dance at London's Liverpool Street Station. So people, hundreds of people in the station, and then music starts playing, and a few people start dancing, and then gradually it spreads, and more and more people join in this synchronized dance. And There were ended up with about 300 dancers and everyone else were were the general public that were commuters. And that one ad was so successful it grew sales by nearly fifty percent. It wow. It doubled footfall into T Mobile retail stores in the UK within forty eight hours. And it had ⁓ forty one million YouTube views, it spawned seventy two Facebook groups. This was in the days before Instagram and TikTok, by the way, so it was mostly Facebook. ⁓ and YouTube. And I said to these guys, look, we no one in the company can believe the cause and effect. They no one understands why this has been a successful and why this has been so successful. And they just looked at me and said, Well, why are you surprised? Because you know we encoded that ad with motivators of behavior. So why are you surprised when people behave like in the way you want them to? And for me that was like, wow. Okay. I have never ever seen or heard or experienced anything like this. And ⁓ that led me to a a real interest in understanding decision science. And they they gave me a few books to read. And in the end I said, this is too important. I I wanna be part of it. So I ⁓ I asked them if they were interested in having a UK office because they founded the company in Germany. And they said, Well, we haven't thought about it 'cause we've got young families and we're we're a hundred percent busy anyway, but if you want to do it, go ahead, we'll coach you. And and I did that. And that was 15 years ago. I made the switch. I quit my client side career. I set up the business in the UK with no clients. So a huge personal and financial risk. But with the that experience that I'd had at T Mobile and seeing the power of this approach working in practice and adding money to the bottom line. And ⁓ that was the the conviction, the belief that led me to to do it. So I then I then wrote a book a couple of years later, decoded The Science Behind Why We Buy, which is my attempt to bring this to a marketing and advertising and a business audience. So written in terms that I could understand. ⁓ and yeah, that's what I've been doing for fifteen years and learning, still learning every day. Yeah, it's such an incredible story and it's also part of the reason why I wanted to speak. to you so badly because a lot of people are either practicing something during their careers and then you have scientists, right? So usually they're very separate fields. ⁓ but I feel like you've combined the the years of experience and the science and now have been doing that for also a a very long time. And it's just so cool to see it's such a great example to see when people think about science and studies, it feels very academic and it f might feel something that only happens within the universities. But I think this is a great testament to where it if you let it out in the real world, you can see the implications and it underscores that we really do, that we really are able to decode, if you will, the human brain and human psychology, and that we can use it for good and and sometimes also for bad. But ⁓ yeah, I just ⁓ thought that was such a such a great story. So thanks for telling that. Why do you think the campaign which was such a success from a scientific ⁓ point of view, if we break it down psychologically, why is the flesh mob so ⁓ effective? Okay, and ⁓ this this really gets to the heart of of human motivation. So what I learned from these guys, ⁓ and this is something that on which there is wide consensus across different fields of academic and scientific study. What I learn is that human behavior is goal directed. Now what that means is that we are consciously and also unconsciously ⁓ triggered and motivated to achieve goals. Goals are a mixture of things. So there are functional goals that you want to achieve from a category. Which might be, you know, why do I why do I need to buy a drink? Because I'm thirsty, I need some refreshment, I need rehydration. Those are quite functional basic things. Why do I buy broadband? ⁓ internet because I need connectivity, I need fast access to information and to connect with people and and things. So those those are more functional goals. They are super, super important because if a business doesn't serve those, you don't have a business, right? They are table stakes really. And in today's world, there are many brands that deliver those goals very well. If you think about detergent products, you know, they all clean clothes. They leave laundry smelling nice and fresh and they get rid of stains. That that's great. So how do I choose between the different goals? ⁓ sorry, different brands. If there isn't a significant difference in goal performance at a functional level. Now sometimes there is. You know, there are there are there are broadband, some broadbands are faster than others. That's clear. And for people who want super fast broadband, they will choose the one that is the fastest. Absolutely clear. But often there isn't much to choose between brands at a functional level. And this is when a different level of goals become important. And these are more psychological, emotional, and social goals. And those are, for example, if I buy broadband there and it's fast, then I meet a functional goal, but I also meet this more implicit goal, this higher level goal, which might be to do with superiority. So I can do things that others can't, I can get access to things that others can't, I can complete tasks before other people. So that's more about self esteem, power, superiority. So that that's more of a psychological and emotional goal. Or it might be that it helps me meet excitement and creativity goals because I can simply do more, I can discover more with faster broadband. So it's an always a mixture between the functional goal and the more implicit emotional, social, psychological goal. And and this is this is fundamental to human to human beings. We're all of our lives, whether we're aware of it or not, are regulated towards goal achievement. That can be just having a cup of coffee, it can be choosing a broadband provider, choosing a holiday destination, a car, clothing brand, or whatever. And we come to learn over time through advertising, through word of mouth, through what we perceive in the environment, sponsorship. who who uses the brand, on what for what, on what occasion, but also through personal experience. The brain builds associations between brand X and goal Y. And the stronger the associative link in the brain, and this is resident in memory structures, so neural networks connecting brand X and goal A, the stronger the connection, the faster it it works and the more mentally available that brand will be for use on a certain occasion or a certain a certain job to be done is another way of of ⁓ expressing this. And the brain will choose that particular brand because it has the strongest ⁓ connection, the strongest implicit association with the goal that I want. And it won't choose another one. And obviously the brand that comes to mind first, if it gets bought, That's it. Game game over. The brain works to a principle of winner, winner takes it all. This just just to bring this to life outside of brands, it it works in in our everyday life. So imagine if you you wanted to go out on a Saturday night and have a great night out and you wanted to call some friends to come with you. A certain friend or group of friends would come to mind because you know that you're going to have a good night out with that bunch of friends. If however you have a different job to be done, let's say you've got a a personal problem or or a problem at work or something, and you want some advice, some counseling, you want to talk on a on a one to one or ⁓ or you would just want some a advice on a on a real deep issue with a couple of friends, maybe di a different friend or friends would come to mind because you've built associations that they're good listeners, they're good at giving advice. They might not be the same friends. That you go out with on a Saturday night. So it's like the brain is is making a selection based on its job to be done. So what we did with T Mobile, coming back to the the story now, is we had ⁓ done quantitative research throughout Europe to understand what goals are motivating in the category, so mobile telephony, mobile internet, at a functional level. And at this more social, emotional, psychological goal level. And how was T-Mobile perceived against those goals versus its competitors? So this was quantitative, empirical research using an implicit research methodology that could access the ⁓ the system one ⁓ implicit associations. And it gave us a very clear space that we could. ⁓ move T Mobile to. Now that meant we had to start to build certain associations between T T Mobile and and a set of goals. And that's what went into the brief. One of the goals, and this is no surprise and it's not ⁓ it it's not under under confidential f confidentiality agreement, is is sociability. Now that seems obvious for a mobile phone. So the trick that Sarch is ⁓ were brilliant at was saying sociability is fine, but in combination with some other goals that we want to associate T-Mobile with, we think we can do something quite distinctive. And the creative idea then was to have this flash mob ⁓ dance where sociability was created and spread. So it was like this sharing moment, a spontaneous sociability. And that that's what made the ad distinctive because Vodafone or O two or three could also try and signal sociability, but they do it in a very different way to T Mobile. So that that was the basis and the foundation for that advertising. And that, as I said, was so successful. We then used the same formula in other countries with new creative expressions. So we had one in Germany called Rain of Flowers, where cannons shot rose petals throughout a city. And these rose petals were raining down on people. And everyone, of course, got their phones out to start filming and taking photos, calling their friends, messaging. So that was how we did that spontaneity and that share ⁓ memorable moments to share was the was the phrase we had. So that was the that was the ⁓ the story. You find out what ⁓ what goals are motivating and then link those to your brand and express them in a in a creative way. And the brain is brilliant at at making that link. So T Mobile sociability or T Mobile goal X, T Mobile Goal Y. And that's what happened. And we know we knew that from the research that those particular goals would be motivating. And they were. And that was the that was the the nice the nice case study that proved the proved the the theory in practice. Yeah that's so interesting. And if if brands want to apply Apply this mechanism, is there a danger when trying to fulfill too many goals at once? Because I can assume that maybe if the goals are supplemental to each other, if there's some synergy within the goals, that it's completely fine. But if you start to dilute the the ⁓ goal, the mission that it could be dangerous that you don't achieve any of them and that a heuristic might be your safest bet if you can at least anchor yourself with this goal and and and drive all the focus towards fulfilling that goal would probably be a better idea in in many scenarios than when you're trying to check all the boxes. And that's a really good question. And it it reminds me that actually there are lots of sayings and expressions in our everyday language that have their roots in neuropsychology. So in English we have an expression Jack of all trades, master of none. Right. Right. And and actually that translates directly to a concept from neuropsychology known as goal dilution. And it's exactly what you say. If you try and be all things to all men, it's not credible. It's it's just not credible. If you were the creator of a category, so let's say McDonald back in the nineteen seventies created really the quick service restaurant category, excuse me, then you are likely to own more goals than competitors simply because you've created the category. But that's a quite a rare ⁓ rare event. Normally in in everyday marketing Yes, you should focus on certain goals, ⁓ to the exclusion of others. You ni you need to satisfy the table stake. So you you have to do you have to deliver what the category goals are. That's clear, otherwise you you won't be in business. But at the implicit social, emotional, psychological level, you should take and try and associate yourselves with a different space, a different set of goals to your competitors. Yeah. And i are there any examples of where you think companies absolutely perfected the craft of of doing this? And are there also examples where organizations or companies yeah really tried doing too much there and and consequently saw their their business or their campaign ⁓ fail as a result? Yeah, I've seen ⁓ well I've s I've seen some ⁓ in fact worked with some startups where they have several good ideas and they try and package them together as one solution. And actually they're very separate ideas. And and my advice has always been you need to focus on on one idea, get that right, and then you could start to bring in some of the other ideas. But if you try and do everything at once, w what are people supposed to respond to? ⁓ it's it's it's tough. I don't actually know what you stand for when you're telling me there are these six different things that you do. So that's ⁓ that's an example of where people can, can and do fail, just because they dilute their their proposition. ⁓ in terms of companies that do it well, it's it's companies that have been very single minded. An example of where a company does this very well and focuses consistently on a goal is Nestle's Kit Kat, the confectionery bar. So for about forty plus years they've used the idea of have a break, have a Kit Kat, which is very clever because the product itself snaps, you can break fingers, so there is literally a break, but also it links to you having a break from whatever you want to do from work, a physical break, a mental cup of coffee and a break with a with a Kit Kat. And the beauty of that is the consistency with which they've done it. Because like anything that human beings learn, we will only learn based on consistency and frequency. It's like when we learn to speak or walk or learn to play a musical instrument or a foreign language. It requires consistency and frequency of repetition. So when a brand does that like Kit Kat, you strengthen these neural networks and associations in the brain and that brand will be mentally available when it whenever you're in the position or the occasion of wanting a a break. So that's a fabulous example of of doing this really well. Yeah, I think I think another example of where ⁓ an organization i in this matter ⁓ is losing it or isn't doing it quite so well And I have no interest in making this political. It's just purely from a marketing ⁓ perspective. But if you see the the L H I I forget all the letters, but the the the L H D BQ ⁓ plus community in the Netherlands at least, they s they started having marches and they st also started to ⁓ remember, then they introduced ⁓ Palestine to it and then they introduced and they introduced like a whole variety of problems and it even led to some conflicts within the organization ⁓ when introducing too much and it kind of led to something ⁓ that people didn't really know what it sta stood for anymore. Well each of the individual cases was of course ⁓ very good to have attention to to the rights of of all these people, but by adding them together the the message kind of lost its its power there. So I think that's that's a a a good example of where in principle good ideas when combined lose ⁓ their their meaning if you will. and I I think What what is what is also interesting ⁓ t to me, of course, you've been in the field for such a ⁓ long time. How has it changed over the years? And I mean that by the the differences in how we consume media ⁓ nowadays, because back in the day we used to spend a lot of time ⁓ behind ⁓ our televisions, ⁓ but more ⁓ increasingly so people are consuming media from from their phones. ⁓ how does this play into the the strategy that that marketers have? Yeah. Well the the reassuring thing is that goals haven't changed. So the and they haven't changed for hundreds of thousands of years and they won't change for hundreds of thousands of years. The way in which we can access ⁓ things to help us achieve goals has of course changed. So with the with the internet in particular with particularly with social media, we can regulate our goals, we can achieve our goals now through new channels. So Instagram helps us do something, TikTok helps us do something else, ⁓ YouTube helps us do something else. But the goals underlying that, whether it's excitement, creativity, novelty, entertainment, relaxation, whatever they may be, those goals are the they last, they are enduring. It's the media only change access and the way in which the goals can be delivered and and which the goals can be achieved. Yeah, all right. So so it's it's it there doesn't really need to be ⁓ it it it is really not a big shift because ⁓ the one thing that is most important is consistent, which is the human ⁓ psychology. Exactly. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And People are very arrogant, right? I mean, at least if I'm speaking ⁓ to myself, people often like to think that they that ads don't work on them. Like, ⁓ I would never be influenced by ⁓ by by an ad. Like who buys that? ⁓ how aware are we of the fact that we have these goals? Because everyone can be influenced by psychology, but not many people like to to admit it. And there's a lot of subconscious uhness happening as well, I believe. So so how aware are we of these goals? We we are very aware of the functional goals and the these are more explicit. And they they explain you can ask people why did you buy X and they'll tell you. And it's at normally at a category level. And we yeah, we're aware that we need broadband or transportation or refreshment or w or whatever. That's fine. Some of the some of the goals indeed are physiological, like thirst, right? We we have to we have to keep hydrated in order to stay alive. but the more implicit goals, the social, emotional, psychological goals, humans don't have introspective access to them. ⁓ and that's why you need this particular research methodology to get around system two, which is like a a gatekeeper. It acts like a policeman on what we self report because we want to appear rational, we want to appear sensible. ⁓ and we system two will make up reasons why we we buy something. But that that's clearly not the case because if if it if all brands were the same and brands didn't meet different goals, we would all buy the same brand of car or the same brand of clothes or the same brand of watch. ⁓ But we don't because we've learned that a Rolex is not just a watch. You know, it says something about us. It makes us feel ⁓ a certain way. ⁓ where a cheap secondo watch does s exactly the same functional job, ⁓ but it doesn't say the same. It's not a badge, it's not something for public consumption. So Some some l luxury brands like Rolex, it it's it's a bit more obvious why we buy them and why we like to carry around the branded shopping bags or or have labels that are on that are on display. That that's more obvious and people do are conscious of that and and do understand it. But still what's motivating that? It's about recognition, it's about a feeling of superiority and self esteem and self confidence. Those aren't the sort of things that people readily articulate and that's why you need this implicit research method to understand that. Yeah. No, that's that's very interesting. I think ⁓ a Rolex is a good example of indeed an extreme. I think most people who buy a Rolex are indeed going to say, Yeah, I need a watch, but you're not buying a Rolex to to know what time it is. I mean you can whip out your phone ⁓ to to know ⁓ to know the time. So of of course ⁓ some some interesting examples. Maybe like w w one practical goal would be when when buying clothes, for example, is you buy clothes to be warm. Maybe in the winter you buy a you buy a sweater, but there there's multiple goals because you also maybe you want to buy a certain brand or or you wanna look look fashionable. is there is there an example of something that is maybe less obvious than than the Rolex example where ⁓ people think that they buy it for some reason, but in fact they they buy it for for different reasons, maybe status or or some other association. Yeah, cars are another great example. ⁓ so in my book I g I ⁓ give the example of ⁓ shared platform it was the Ford Galaxy, Seattle Ambra, and I can't remember the third one, but basically the the chassis, the engine, were all the same. The what differed was the switch gear inside, so the trim and the finish was was different. But essentially the car was identical across three different brands and yet each brand commanded a different price point. And people were willing to pay more or less depending on the brand. And I had a fabulous example personally where I was presenting to the board of a car manufacturer and I was explaining about system one and system two and goals and how system one is is motivated to achieve goals. And system two was the more ⁓ reflective processes, more deliberate, more in quotes rational. ⁓ and the the CFO challenged me, he said, I don't believe this. I think buying a car is a very system two process. He said, for example, when I got my last company car, I created an Excel spreadsheet, put my budget in, I put ⁓ all of the models that came within the budget, the engine size, the naught to 60, the ⁓ liters per hundred kilometers, the CO2 emissions, the residual value. I did an analysis and that led me to ⁓ or the trim and specification that led me to a new decision. That's a very system two, deliberate, reflective process. And I agreed with him. I said, yes, what you did was was very much system two. But why did you do that? And he said, ⁓ so I could have a BMW outside my house. So he just answered his own question. So System One had already decided BMW because of what it said about him. Now he didn't say Because I want to show off to my neighbours, or I want to prove how superior or powerful I am or boost my self esteem. He just said, I want a BMW outside my house. But that was the decision the brain had already taken. And then his system two then took over to rationalise and work out the decision. And it and it it does a v that's a very important job for system two as well, because we need to make sure that We justify our decisions and we post rationalize our choices to make sense of them. Yeah, I think this also ties into some older study, I believe from the period where they used to do lob lobotomies, where they split up the the brain halves, ⁓ so in order to treat some sort of mental disease back in the day. So the the left brain and the right brain weren't able to communicate anymore. And then I believe they would tell someone to walk to the other side of the room. ⁓ but I I don't exactly I can't exactly recall how they did this, but there was an example where someone wasn't able to register their short-term memory or something. And he was literally told to walk to the other side of the room to get a glass of water. And then when he was asked why did you get the glass of water, it's like yeah, because I was thirsty. ⁓ I should look this up. ⁓ but there are some examples where yeah, it's very common for us to rationalise after the fact rather than that we are perfectly ⁓ rational creatures. And there's a couple of famous ⁓ cases where ⁓ one person had physical damage and the other one had a lesion on the ⁓ part of their frontal cortex. And there were various conclusions and what it meant was they couldn't make decisions afterwards. And there were various conclusions drawn about whether or not they felt emotion and did emotion form part of decision making. Actually, what happened was destroying that part of the orbitofrontal cortex destroyed the mechanism for decision making, because that's the part of the brain where the brain evaluates a so called reward. So that achieving goals is rewarding for the brain. And that that's the part of the brain that decide is like the executive decision making part of the brain that says, do I choose brand X or brand Y? Do I do do I do make decision A or decision B? And because that was damaged, they just it just didn't function anymore. Wow, that's incredible. And w what about ⁓ in the in the book you also ⁓ talk about pricing in the sense of in having Depends on the product, of course. Maybe some products you want to be expensive because their entire value or or or perception is based around the pricing. But in general, for most products, people don't want to pay too much. And when they pay, they don't want to feel it in their pockets, right? And that section reminded me of I I used to be a tax lawyer before I became a journalist and ⁓ I was in ⁓ law school. And one of the courses I had was income tax. And I will never forget the name of the book that I had to read for this course, ⁓ which was and it doesn't translate perfectly into English, but the literal translation was something along the lines of the principle of the least amount of pain, ⁓ which basically It was about the mechanics of our income tax system and that everything was built with the idea in mind that paying income tax should hurt, like psychologically hurt the least amount of possible the least amount possible because nobody likes to pay taxes, right? maybe we we support what's being done with those taxes, but whenever the moment comes though anyway actually are due, ⁓ never a great moment. So That's how they designed a system. For example, if you work for an employer, you are an employee. Your employer, at least in the Netherlands, is paying your income tax. So that whenever it's transferred to your bank account, you can keep all of it. And you don't really feel that you're paying taxes because someone else is doing it for you and you don't even have to think about it anymore. Still you have to file it, but then on the file it's already been done and and usually you don't have to pay extra unless your employer made a mistake, which can happen but ⁓ is is rare. So all of this is to say the principle of bas the basically what they did is marketing, right? They designed that system with marketing in mind because they understood that paying taxes is not fun. So how does this tie in this principle of ⁓ path of least resistance, dealing with Brisis comeback in in your profession. It's really interesting you you say that because it ties in perfectly. Because the ⁓ there's a basic equation in the brain. And when I say equation, that sounds like it's a mathematical formula. It it's not. The brain doesn't work out a mathematical formula, but it it's it it's an equation that just helps us understand the mechanism. So I mentioned the reward. So when and and this was a fabulous experiment done at at Stanford by Professor Brian Knutz and and his colleagues, ⁓ called Neural Predictors of Purchase. So what they did was put people into brain scanners and they showed them images of different brands for four seconds. And then they showed them a price for four seconds, and then each person was given four seconds to press a button to indicate whether they would Buy that brand for that price or not, yes or no. And all the scientists wanted to do was observe on the brain scanner what happens at those points in time. So when people see a brand, this reward center is activated because we we expect that we're going to get something rewarding. So what was interesting was that the scientists already knew from other experiments, two they knew two things. Firstly, That this part of the brain, the same part, is activated when we see something that is very rewarding to us. So if you show a a mother a photo of her kids, her reward center is activated. Or if you show pieces of artwork to art lovers, their reward center is activated. So brands work in a similar way. It is something very pleasurable and rewarding. When people were shown the price, something very different happened. the insula in the brain, which is connected with physical and mental pain and all and also disgust, actually. That was activated. So it was almost like the brain was saying, I want that brand. And ⁓ Godiva chocolates was one example. ⁓ those chocolates are lovely. They're really rewarding. I want those, but ouch. You you want me to give away money? For that reward and giving away money is painful to the brain. It it kind of hurts. And then then there was a trade-off. Did the was the reward activation enough to overcome the pain activation? And if it was, then that person pressed yes. If it wasn't, the person pressed no. And the scientist could predict just watching the activation which button that person was going to press. So price and money is can be painful. fits your story exactly. So price ⁓ triggers pain. Also it's behavioural cost as well. So it's the time and the effort involved in acquiring the the reward. And that's often why ⁓ people don't end up buying things, you know, online for example, if the checkout process is is too long or you want too much information, people just abandon the shopping cart. And can't be bothered because the reward is not enough to overcome the pain of the whole process. ⁓ and it's ⁓ yeah it fits your it fits your ⁓ your story perfectly that ⁓ that money represents pain in the brain. And what you said also about brands needing a certain amount of pain is also true because we pain is also an indicator of reward. That's why luxury goods are expensive, right? If you said to somebody, here's a Louis Vuitton handbag you can have it for fifty euros, then your your brain would say, well that's not credible. So it's either stolen or it's fake, right? Because they don't cost fifty euros. So a a a brand like that has a level of pain that you associate with certain level of reward. Yeah, and w what I love ⁓ that you bring up here is ⁓ not only the monetary pain, but also the effort it takes to acquire something. ⁓ I'm sure you're familiar with the story, but it would be good to to tell it again because I love it so much. Is that when Elon Musk was ⁓ you you can famously buy Teslas online. You can just order it online. And they were looking at the the process because not many people were doing it. And then they saw that there was like 48 clicks or 47 different pages that you had to go through. Because of all the banking documentation that had to be filled out. And they Elon asked the the the lawyers, like, is this is this mandatory or or or or no? And it was just like something that banks did in order to have some extra insurance. ⁓ but then what they did at Tesla is they went to Domino's pizza and they counted the amount of clicks it ⁓ took to order a Domino's pizza. And it was, I believe it was eleven clicks or thirteen or something, but at least it was way less than it was for the for for buying the Tesla. So the new goal was to make it as easy to buy a Tesla than it was to buy a Domino's pizza. But they still had to deal with all this banking documentation and it went up to the banks, can you like get rid of the documentation? Because it's not l mandatory by law and ⁓ no bank was willing to do it. But then eventually they found one bank that basically dumbed it down so it would just be like a super short one paragraph loan document. that if people signed it it was ⁓ it was good and it was ⁓ in line with the legal requirements. And that's how Tesla managed to ⁓ bring down the amount of clicks ⁓ as to ⁓ dominoes pizza and now it's as easy to to literally order pizza or or to buy a Tesla. So I I just I had to think of that example. That's fantastic. I lo I love that. And it's a very it's it's a great example of behavioural cost. Or friction is the other is the other term that a lot of people talk about in the purchase process, reducing friction. I I worked with a a healthcare provider who had built an amazing decision engine. It was he was selling healthcare plans for ⁓ company employees to choose. This was in in the US. And you could input every detail that you needed to, and the decision engine would then work out what the best plans were for you based on every available plan in the United States. So it functionally it was an incredible bit of kit. Really, really powerful. And that's what this guy was very proud of. And he said, but we're getting massive dropout once people have invested this time in giving all their details, they're not choosing a plan. What but we and we don't understand why, because we've got the perfect plans for them. So I clicked through, went through the process with him. And what happened was once you click go to see what your plans were, the next page gave you about fifteen different plans to choose from. And at that point you just go, ⁓ my God. What have I now got to compare and contrast fifteen and go through the detail of each one? And I said to them, that's why you're getting drop-off, because the behavioral cost at that point, the pain at that point is is immense. And people will be really annoyed with you, by the way, because they just spent a long time giving you all their personal details. And now they're you present them with this. The best thing to do then, present them with three. And of the three Give them one preferred option and say this is you know, this is the most popular option, or most people like you choose this. Simplify it, reduce the friction, really simplify the choice because the brain can just get overwhelmed and we just give up. Because we haven't got the capacity to process all of all of that. It just needs to be fast and and easy to do. Yeah, and that ties into the paradox of choice, right? We tend to be happier when we have ⁓ Yeah, less choices than than more choices, which sounds irrational because a rational actor would enjoy more choices because then they can eventually choose the thing that most aligns with their goals. But in practice, ⁓ I believe that there is a lot of studies that were performed on this where less is actually more and that we are not only happier with our decision, but after we've made the decision that we question our decisions less when they're we're less to begin with. Gener generally that's true, but it does depend on the context and the person. So the the famous ⁓ study for the paradox of choice is about choosing jam in a supermarket and whether if you have six varieties versus twelve varieties on on display or whatever. More people choose from six than they choose from twelve and they're happier with their decisions. However If you were a person who was really interested in jam and you knew there was a supermarket called World of Jam and it was fifty kilometers away, you would drive to that supermarket and you would happily browse for a long time to select one jar or or maybe a few jars. So yes, it does depend entirely on the context. And this is a really important point in the whole decision and behavioural science field. And something that the guys who I work with first told me that behaviour is a product of the person and the situation or the context. And you cannot ignore context. Because if you think about yourself, you know, if I don't know if you drink alcohol, but if you do, think about when where you are, who you're with, the time of day, whether it's an event or an occasion. ⁓ whether you're on holiday, whether you're indoors or outdoors, what the temperature is, all of those things are contextual. And every one of those elements of context can change your choice of drink. Right? What you drink on holiday is different to what you drink at home, what you drink with friends is different to what you drink with business colleagues or clients, etc. etc. So that context is is super important to understand as well because our Our jobs to be done, our goals can differ depending on context, even though we as individuals stay exactly the same. Yeah, it's a good caveat because when I I like to read books and when I go to the bookstore here in Amsterdam, I'm always amazed by the variety in that bookstore. and I'm glad that there is, right? Because I have specific things I wanna buy in that bookstore. ⁓ there is all different sorts of topics. And then I really take my time and then I go home with the books that I think would be interesting. There there's going to be a bunch of them. But in the what I like about watching movies in the airplane is that there is a limited amount of choice. And sometimes there is not a lot of choice. And I have to watch something that I would never watch at home. But then I'm off very often I'm very happily surprised. I was like, hey, I I would have never watched that movie, but I actually thoroughly enjoyed this. movie. ⁓ so by by limiting the choice I have to watch movies on the airplane, it it it sometimes helps. Everyone knows the feeling when they're browsing Netflix, right? And there's like a million options to choose from and you end up choosing no movie at all. And then fift maybe well once you choose a movie and you're like fifteen minutes in there like, did we make the right decision? Did we pick the right movie? I'm not sure. So I think ⁓ reemphasizing there that context r really, really ⁓ matters in in these situations. ⁓ what I ⁓ was interested about is we briefly spoke about ⁓ price in the context of reducing the amount of pain. ⁓ I believe also in the book you mentioned something about removing a pound or euro signs from a price and obviously the very famous thing that we see every day is the the not three euros or pounds but the it's two ninety nine. what's ⁓ what's happening there? How why why don't we or do we like pound or or euro science? Well the the study there's a study behind that which ⁓ I cite in the in the book, which was a restaurant which had ⁓ the the same daily special, Hungarian Gulash, priced at 10 euros, but they they showed the price in different ways. One one was just the number 10, one was 10 with the euro symbol, and the other was 10 euros written out, T E N, and then Euros. And they found that ⁓ they sold more when it was just the number 10 on its own. And this links with with pain activation. So the currency symbol or the currency word activates more pain than just the number. And After the book was published, I I was ⁓ did some work with Carlsberg and ⁓ their insight manager said, These are amazing. I'm going to propose some of these changes to our business. And she did, and the business said, Whoa, hang on, these are just academic studies. You know, we're not going to do anything based on an academic study. So she set out to replicate the studies, and she did, and she very kindly Shared the results with me and I've published them in the ⁓ the most recent edition of of Decoded. And her her studies replicated the original academic study as well. ⁓ and they found ⁓ I think it was something like an eleven percent revenue increase just by taking the ⁓ Danish krona symbol off their their menus card in in restaurants and bars because it doesn't trigger pain. And you find this through throughout I don't know, probably the same in Amsterdam, certainly in London, that restaurants now have taken the currency symbol off their menus. And it's i for exactly this this reason that it triggers less pain. That's so fascinating. I mean, how cool how cool is that? Yeah. Yeah, it's quite it is quite ⁓ quite incredible. And there there's lots of studies into pricing psychology. So the you know the two ninety nine versus three d different different digits, buy two, get one free versus thirty three percent free, half price versus fifty percent off, all of these things as well. They've all all been all been studied. So yeah, ⁓ again, most of it comes down to ease of processing for the brain. Don't don't make shoppers work something out. It's just they're not gonna do it. They haven't got the time, they haven't got the mental capacity or bandwidth to do it. Just make it easy for the brain to process. We'll go back to the conversation in just a second, but first I have an important announcement to make. If you've made it this far, I'm going to assume that you're enjoying the show. If you want to support the show, you can do so by leaving a like or a comment if you're watching on YouTube, or by rating the episode if you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. However, the single biggest thing you can do to support the show is by sharing it with someone you think might enjoy this episode. This could be a friend, it could be a family member, it could be a colleague. It doesn't really matter. If everyone who's currently listening to this episode would share it with just one person, the show would blow up in no time. Which also means that I could go full time. That means more episodes, it means better episodes, and it also means a happy host. So Please consider sharing the episode. It really helps me a lot. And I thank you. Now let's get back to talking. Right. And we haven't spoken about packaging. ⁓ and I believe packaging is super interesting and very important as well. Are you familiar with the Dutch brand upfront? No. Okay, so it's a recently relatively new. Brand. They started out selling protein bars and protein shakes. ⁓ and their the entire vision of the brand was everything is so packed with many many ingredients that we don't need, and we have to look ⁓ with the with a magnifying glass on on the label. And we just wanna make the packaging very simple and we put up the front of the packaging. what's in it. Like that's going to be like the nutritional values are going to be upfront. And ⁓ they have now expanded their entire ⁓ fitness ⁓ line and it's it's very minimalistic. It's very let me grab one actually. I have a packaging right right next to me. I I wanna show you. So what I have here is their protein powder. And as you can see it's very minimalistic and it has clear you can see inside of the packaging on the side. And this is currently flying off the shelves. This company is growing like like crazy. And it's really I thought it was it's so interesting to me that even in such a crowded space ⁓ which is ⁓ sports supplements, ⁓ protein powders, etc., that they still manage to yeah, to to find something so find something new. And and it ties in, I think ⁓ what they really try to portray is honesty. Like like also in their entire social media strategies, like when they make a mistake or when they mess up a big order or when they misprint packaging or whatever. They immediately post it to all of their social media. So it's like the entire thing is trustworthiness, ⁓ believability, and that's why they have all the yeah, all the everything right on on the center of the packaging. ⁓ how important is packaging and ⁓ why do you think upfront in this example, ⁓ what what what are they doing right here? Well, packaging is is really, really important because it ⁓ it engages more than one sense for a start. You've got the visual sense, but you've also got the haptic sense of touch and that that conveys meaning to the to the brain as well and that can amplify what ⁓ what we see through and what we perceive through ⁓ a visual sense as well. So the colours that are used, the shapes that are used, the materials that are used are all fundamental to the ⁓ the overall meaning and associations that are created in the brain. Give you an example of the the power of packaging. We worked with a client who was testing a face cream and they was they sent out to households to do their market research. They sent out face cream in plain unbranded jars because they didn't want the brand to confound the results because the brand creates ⁓ associations itself. They just wanted to test the cream on its own. And they Got the results back and they found in one city there were very different results and they couldn't understand this. And then they looked at what had been sent out and it turned out that the ⁓ the people supplying the jars had run out of ⁓ a circular jar and had substituted a square shaped jar instead. Still unbranded, but a different shape. And purely the shape the cream was identical as well, so purely the shape of the jar impacted the results. in their research. So no no other change. Unbranded, same cream, just a shape that changed from round to square, had a big if impact. So packaging is super important. It's not it fulfills many different roles, not only on shelf or online in terms of visibility and and branding. But also once you once you pick it up and feel it, that has an impact. And then of course in the home when you're using it as well. It's like I think the phrase is pack vertizing, you know, it exists, it it it lasts in your home. Every time you open the cupboard, it's it's there. So it's super, super important as a touch point. What I think upfront does well, I mean there's a nice link between the name, you we are up front with you, i.e. we're open, we're honest, we're transparent, ⁓ and the that's very clear, literally up front on the packaging, that that's nice consistency. It's very minimalist as well. Which i which is good. It it it echoes the needs for clean living and clean food. ⁓ and I think that's probably built on the insight that they had, and you already mentioned this. People are concerned, even if they're taking a supplement or protein powder or whatever it might be, that there is this long list of ingredients and chemicals and things I've never heard of. What am I putting in my body? That's that's the real ⁓ need that upfront has overcome. So by stripping it back to to the minimal ingredients, being very clear what they are, literally transparent, as you said, on the ends of the pack you can see the product. And that's that's very good because the brain otherwise has to imagine. ⁓ and we're we're what would we imagine is in there? I don't know. But if you can show the product, then we mentally simulate, ⁓ okay, I've put that I can dose that into milk or whatever it might be. ⁓ so that's an advantage as well. So I think it's doing quite a few things, ⁓ doing a good job on quite a few fronts. Up front sorry. Yeah. It's showing, it's showing because it's it's hands down the most popular and most upcoming. They they they've they've expanded from just sports supplements to just basically anything. They have entire supermarkets ⁓ now and ⁓ their advertisements are genius. ⁓ as well. They're doing they're they're they're nailing every every single aspect of of the marketing currently. So I think it's a great great study ⁓ to ⁓ to sue it. And it's just very very cool to see the young young guys who are who are building this. And I think what you mentioned there about using the packaging, about it being so important as well. One thing that immediately comes to mind is buying a new iPhone and then when you unbox it, the snugness of it where it was like kinda it's kinda hard to to and it just slowly there's some friction going on and just it feels so so smooth and so delicate. It's it's just a nice experience to open and it's genius, but you n you do you know that is designed in specifically if you re I read ⁓ the biography of Steve Jobs and in that he talks about ⁓ having two Two guys dedicated just to packaging and they they sit sit in a room and play with boxes. And it that friction is designed to be perfect. It's not too much and it's not too little. But Steve Jobs talks about the anticipation and the expectation and the excitement that comes from that slow process. And it's almost like you are opening a present or a treasure chest. And then once you take the lid off, then you see the beautifully laid out product with in inside. ⁓ It's a genius, genius bit of work. It's it's incredible. And I mean it's Apple, so I'm not surprised that there was some thinking ⁓ behind this because nothing is a is a coincidence when it comes to marketing geniuses like Apple. I think w one of the things that I really wanted to ⁓ this ⁓ yeah ask you about maybe you've heard this story. I am not sure whether this is true, but I I believe there is some truth to it because it I read it in some book about Heineken. ⁓ and that is when ⁓ Heineken first wanted to it's not necessarily B2C marketing, ⁓ rather B2B marketing, but ⁓ as important in s in some ways, is that when Heineken wanted to expand to the US for the first time They were going to have all these meetings with ⁓ big ⁓ beer importers with a lot of bars. but prior to having those meetings and prior to sending out their salesmen to all these places and bars ⁓ that would sell them Heineken, they hired a bunch of people that would go in to all of these places and ask for a Heineken. And I was like, Hey, do you serve Heineken? And nobody had ever heard about Heineken. Because they didn't sell it yet. Obviously, they hadn't heard about Heineken. And then these people like the Barton was like, ⁓ it's like the fourth time this week that someone is asking for a Heineken. And then on day five, they would send in their salesperson to to come and ⁓ sell ⁓ the the Heineken, which may be a bit shady ⁓ now in in modern times. I don't know if that's ⁓ in line with with ⁓ fair ⁓ business practices anymore, but ⁓ Such a cool, cool bus B to B marketing story. Have you have you heard this story before? No, I haven't heard that, but it's yeah, it's a great story. Create create the demand and then satisfy it. Yeah, no, I I love that story, but I I should confirm it too, ⁓ before ⁓ before I publicly talk about it some more. ⁓ is there is there anything, ⁓ Phil, that you think is still ⁓ important to mention, something that we haven't touched on while we are on the topic of ⁓ why we buy things. ⁓ the other I think the other really important thing for markers or any any business person to understand is the power of perception. I get one of the things the the two guys taught me very early on is that perception beats cognition every time. And what they meant by that was, and I'll give you a a great example there was a study where people were given two bowls of ⁓ a cream dessert. And one of them was a vanilla colour and the other was a brown chocolate colour. And they were asked to taste them and and report on the dessert. The quality, the taste, the flavour, etcetera, mouthfeel. and ⁓ the the results were very interesting. People said, yeah, great tasting vanilla dessert, great tasting chocolate dessert. And the interesting thing was that the desserts were identical. The chocolate one had been colored brown just using a a brown food colouring. So it wasn't ac it was actually vanilla, but colored brown. But because we perceive it as a brown dessert, the brain automatically says brown equals chocolate, and when we taste it, it's chocolate. So that Sounds like we're crazy human beings, but we're not. It's because perception is so influential on ⁓ on everything else that follows in in in the brain. And that there's I give the example of ⁓ framing in in the book, and this was from Daniel prof late Professor Daniel Carneman's Nobel laureate ⁓ speech, where he shows a a grey square surrounded by a contrasting grey square. And depending on the colour of the frame around the grey square, it changes our perception of the little grey square inside, either lighter or darker. Even though objectively and factually it's identical, we cannot help but perceive it as different. And that's exactly how brands work. They are frames around a product and we can make products seem different, be be evaluated differently, subjectively, taste different. depending on the frame. So this this ⁓ power of perception is one is one other thing that I would urge marketers to bear in mind. That they could create something, whether it's a packaging design or an advertisement, that they believe will be perceived in a certain way. Only because they've written the brief and they're very close to it and they've worked on it every day. But when a human being out there, a customer, someone viewing something when they perceive it, it can be can be perceived very differently and not how the originator intended. That's such an interesting example and yeah, it really goes to show how easily we are fooled by our own own brains. ⁓ is there anything we can do as consumers to kind of protect ourselves from aggressive marketing if you will or what if someone kind of is is a loose spender? Is there is there anything to take away to to kind of protect oneself to buy a lot of things they they don't necessarily need? Or is ⁓ yeah is is the marketing too strong and our brains just too good at fooling ourselves? Well again it depends on the context. ⁓ but we so we need to ⁓ Yeah, if someone needs a drink because they're thirsty and they need they need hydration, then they want to buy a drink, right? That's that's important because they need to stay alive. But there there are two questions that we can ask ourselves. The first is do I need it? Do I really need it? And the second is can I afford it? And if you can answer both of those satisfactorily, then then I think it's ⁓ yeah, it would be safe to to buy something. Or not. I I had an example I went on a on a cruise a few years ago and there was a sale of watches and they used particular nudges or heuristics quite deliberately and you s it was like a feeding frenzy. So they said flash sale, it it opens at six PM, it will last for thirty minutes. There is a limited quantity of watches you can buy first come, first served. And honestly, you had a queue of people and then when they at six o'clock when they let people in, it was people just grabbing things. And I I asked somebody who bought one if I could look at the watch, and honestly they were crap. They were rubbish, dreadful quality. But they created this desire because there was scarcity, s limited time. limited quantity. Flash sale, first come, first served. So they they artificially created a demand. And that can impact human beings. And and it did. I witnessed it. But I think if you answer those ask yourself those questions, do I need it and can I afford it? Then you can avoid some of these Yeah, no, that's that's great advice. And ⁓ finally before we wrap it up, because we're talking about watches just now, I think you must have seen the craze around the Swatch and Otomar's PK ⁓ collaboration where people were brainwashed basically to to want to buy this plastic pocket watch so badly that they were literally they had to close the stores All over the world, not not just in Amsterdam, not just in London, not just but literally all over the world they had to close doors because they couldn't guarantee the safety anymore because people were literally fighting each other to get their hands on a pl plastic pocket watch of five hundred dollars. Which is ⁓ hundreds of thousands of years, our ancestors would grab what they could when they could, because you never knew when something was going to be available again. You know, you had to kill that woolly mammoth because who n who knows when the next one would come along. So we we are driven. There is an urge within us that goes back hundreds of thousands of years to get something that is scarce resource because we perceive that to be more valuable. So when you have a limited collaboration like that, and you know people know it's limited, it it creates this huge perceived value. And then of course the demand demand follows. And that that's how limited editions work in in in fashion, in even in fast moving consumer goods. You know, the Budweiser did some limited edition World Cup cans because they want people to collect them during the period of the World Cup. So it it is a powerful motivator. Yeah. Yeah, it exposes ⁓ how primal ⁓ we can be in ⁓ in some ⁓ scenarios given the given the right ⁓ right ⁓ sounds. ⁓ Phil, we can go on ⁓ all day about this topic. I find it extremely ⁓ interesting. but I think ⁓ maybe we should save that for ⁓ for another day. ⁓ I just want to say thank you so much for for coming on the show. This was ⁓ so so good. I had a lot of fun talking ⁓ with you today. ⁓ where can people go if they wanna buy your book, for example, or if they want to keep up with ⁓ the the work that you're doing? ⁓ what's the best place for people to ⁓ to pick it up? Yeah, so the easiest place for the book is Amazon. So just search decoded the science behind why we buy. ⁓ people can connect with me on LinkedIn, Phil Barden. ⁓ and if they want to get in contact directly to discuss any potential work, then it's my email address is Phil at Decodemarketing. That's all one word. Decodemarketing dot com. Perfect. I'll make sure to ⁓ to put it in the in the show notes. And ⁓ yeah, let's stay in touch because ⁓ I think this is ⁓ something that it's like you say like the the the the landscape is always evolving because we get new ways of how we consume products of how we consume media selling products but ⁓ our our our primal instincts will remain and our goals will remain so ⁓ probably ⁓ a lot more more to discuss ⁓ in the future. It keeps ⁓ it it it remains ⁓ to be very very interesting. So thank you for it today, Phil. It was great. Thanks for having me to this it's good fun.