Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 832: Type C behaviors with Dr. Kore Nissenson Glied and Anna White

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Episode 832: Type C behaviors with Dr. Kore Nissenson Glied and Anna White · The Trauma Therapist

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Trauma Therapist Podcast. Plus listeners can listen to episodes early and ad free right
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now. Become a Plus listener by going to Apple Podcasts searching for the Trauma
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Therapist Podcast and signing up today. All right, welcome back to the Trauma
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Thepist podcast. My name is Gamiferson. My mission is to help trauma therapist
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be their incredible selves, to be human, to be real, not just
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a clinician. I'm a big believer in who we are is more important than
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what we know, and this requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability,
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to the Trauma Therapist project dot com. That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com.
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Let's get started, all right, ladies, here we go. So
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five four, three, two and one folks come back to the podcast.
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Very excited to have as my guest today, Corey Glead and Anna White.
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Ladies, welcome, thankk you glad to be here. So. Doctor Corey
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Gleed is a licensed clinical psychologist born and raised in New York. She worked
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for over fifteen years in city hospitals, providing both patient care and academic training,
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and has maintained a private practice in Manhattan since twenty ten, which sup
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provides evidence based treatments for anxiety, depression, and stress to a wide range
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of conditions. And A White is a former Wall Street executive who experienced severe
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burnout and subsequent chronic illness during her years in the corporate sector. Type see
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traits, which we're here to talk about today, were a significant contributor to
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her declining health. After leaving corporate life, she found that a specialty care
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package company called Rest and Heal. So today, now, is it correct
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to say that you're both founders of the Type Sea Toolbox? That's right?
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Yeah, okay, so yeah, I'm really curious to talk about type see
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behaviors and so forth. But welcome to the podcast. We excited to be
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here. Awesome. So before we get going here, now, Corey,
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as I started in the interview, you're from New York. But share with
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the listeners both of you where you're from originally and where you are currently.
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I'm originally from the South, So born in Tennessee, lived in Tennessee and
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North Carolina through my childhood in early twenties, moved to New York City in
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nineteen ninety nine, and I've been here ever since. Live on the Upper
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West Side, same neighboroos Cory, which is how we know each other.
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I am a born and raised in New Yorker. I would like to say
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I did leave for four years in college. I went all the way to
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Minnesota, so I've had my out of New York City's experience, and I
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have lived in Europe briefly, and then I came right back to the Upper
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West Side of New York City. Awesome. All right, So type C
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the Type C toolbox. Okay, first of all, how did you both
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meet? Well, our children are elementary school classmates, so we met when
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they were in kindergarten together and now they're in ninth grade. So it's been
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a long time, a long time. It's been a long time. And
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the way this whole thing sort of came together was I was reading this book
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about cancer and there was this little section in the book around type C as
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it relates to cancer, and when I read the list of what type C
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means, it just resonated with me at the highest level. So TYPEES traits
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are people who are excessively nice, hate letting other people down, carry the
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weight to the world on their shoulders. Can't we have the thought of disappointing
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anyone feel really really really guilty when we say no, we can't set boundaries.
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We go to extreme link to avoid conflict. People pleasers, people pleasers,
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but a little bit more complex. And so Corey and I had done
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some work together around my wellness business, and I brought up this notion of
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type C to her, saying, I've never heard of it described like this
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before, and I think this fits me to a t. And we were
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having dinner one night, right, we were having dinner one night on the
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Upper West Side Yell met new Malaysian restaurant and Anna I had done this work
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together before, talking about health and wellness, and I was kind of itching
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to do something more and to describe this type C. And I was like,
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wow, you know a lot of my patients really struggle with that.
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I had never heard of type C before, but that's something that I regularly
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see and regularly talk to people about. And we talked about, you know,
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what would that look like if we were going to do something around it.
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And then that's really where the type seed toolbox project came along. That
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we decided to work on some sort of educational platform that helped people understand what
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type SEE is all about. The you know, it can be lovely and
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wonderful to be a little type SEE, but when it is taken to the
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extreme in and it's case, and in a lot of my patient's case,
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it leads to exhaustion, anger, resentment, people struggling with a lot of
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anxiety, a lot of guilt. It can also lead to a lot of
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physical health issues, so chronic pain, chronic fatigue, a lot of pelvic
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issues, stomach issues, ir will bow, migraines. So, you know,
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a lot of these things were things that and experience, but I have
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a lot of patients who fall into these categories. So we decided to start
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an educational project and then turned into our own podcast. And really not a
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lot of people have heard of type C. And there are some tips and
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strategies. Obviously, awareness is key number one, but then there are things
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that you can do that are not easy, but there are things that you
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can work on to make change so that you don't have the same types of
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health and illness issues that many people fall into the category. Unfortunately, when
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you're really suffering. So I'm assuming many people have heard of Type A,
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which is like the go getter. If you would describe type A type to
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B and give us a little context there, sure, yeah, I mean,
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well, we think of type A as people that are very driven,
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very competitive, can be sort of aggressive, you know, veer towards perfectionism,
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go go go, like you said, go getters. Type B a
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little more laid back, more flexible, more passive, can be indifferent at
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times. I mean, there are health risks with all of these personalities,
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and it's really when, like Corey said, they're taken to the extremes,
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when we really push the boundaries on these things, then that's when we see
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a deterioration in health. So most and then correct me if I'm wrong here.
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When we think of type A, I think most often we probably think
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of men, but we do think of women, and probably with men it's
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the different perceptions. Right with men, it's like type A, and when
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you think of a type A women A lot of times people can have a
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negative perspective of that. Excuse me now with type B, right, and
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then type C, as you were thinking, so talking about type C,
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I was thinking, do women fall into that heading more or challenge? I
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think women seek treatment more in general across the medical board, with medical doctors
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as well as with therapists and psychologists psychiatrists. So I think it's easier to
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see them more. But over the course of my career, I've had not
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as many men, but definitely men that struggle with type C. And I
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think women can This is maybe a blanket statement, but women can feel a
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little more powerless than men in a lot of situations, especially in the corporate
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sector. That's how I experienced corporate life, and I think that feeling of
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powerlessness is very sort of tight cee, feeling like you really can't say no,
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that you really can't set boundaries, that you have to prove yourself even
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more than the men do. And so I think that's, you know,
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that's an element. I think another thing is is that I think that women
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are more likely to be rewarded for people pleasing behavior, whereas a man may
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not be rewarded for that. And certainly, I mean Anna talks about religion
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and the South as also really rewarding women who were nice and thoughtful, you
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know, did a lot for other people. I know that actually in some
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Asian cultures, particularly in India, being very selfless is very lauded. It's
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very rewarded and appreciated. Right, So there are a lot of cultural kind
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of specificities and complexities with this whole thing. So Anna, when you were
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reading this in this book, you were like, this is me, this
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is did it become like, holy crap, how do I deal with this?
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How do I How did did you seek treatment for this? Well,
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at that point, I had kind of done a lot of work on myself
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to try to get to a better place. So I wasn't at rock bottom
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when I read this. I had hit rock bottom several years earlier, but
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I had never heard it sort of described in these terms. And the real
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low point of my health was after I had my second child. I went
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on maternity leave and worked straight through the whole thing and really burnt myself out.
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And that was a function of just being absolutely type. See. I
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worked for a very small firm. They were under resource. I felt extreme
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guilt about leaving them and a going on attorney leave, and so I offered
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to pitch in during my attorney leave, which is just, you know,
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one of my biggest regrets in this life. But I think you know,
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there was a sincere offer to help. But then on the other side,
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there was a real taking advantage of a type see person. And I mean
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the sad part of this story is that I gave birth the next day in
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the hospital. The boss calls to say, hey, we really need to
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get going on this deal. Oh god, no, yeah, Besa,
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can you get these investor letters out? And you know typeese people default to,
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yes, that's what we do. We don't even stop to think about
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it. And somebody needs us. We can't disappoint them, we can't let
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them down. We say yes, I'm there for you. And so I
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literally went home from the hospital and the next day started working on this deal.
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Seven weeks of you know, working nursing my child at the same time,
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up all night calling you know, investors all over the world. The
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whole thing was complete le bonkers. At the end of it, I was
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a physical wreck and it's just taken years to recover from that. It was
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just yeah, you know, listening to you, first of all, thank
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you for sharing that, But listening to you say that, I'm thinking I
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can identify parts of me, can identify and I know a lot of people
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listening can I identify with that too? And people are like people listening are
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probably going just as I am, like how crazy is that? But a
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lot of us do it. So how do you how do you address this?
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How do you how do you fix this? Well, let me actually
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just jump in one sec because I was going to say that one of the
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really interesting things that when Anna and I first met, you know, a
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couple of years ago on the upperest side at our little dinner, I thought,
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oh, wow, this is so interesting. I see this in a
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lot of my patients, right, and but since then I start to see
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it myself. I think it's very and we talk about how Anna definitely her
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worst type see traits were work related. But as I've learned more about this
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and understood, I can realize that I can get stuck in this with my
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kids. And so the first part is awareness. So the first part is
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recognizing that there may be some sort of rules that you have for yourself that
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you're not really aware of. So many people would type see have grown up
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in households that either either there was some sort of trauma, or there was
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you know, some sort of abuse or excessive mental illness, or sometimes perfectionism
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or criticism, but there was some reason or environmental factors that led to someone
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thinking either my needs are lesser or it's safer or more helpful if I just
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you know, make things people happy, make sure that people are taken care
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of. My needs are not as important. I'm going to keep things more
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to myself. I'm going to really make sure that I take care of other
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people. So that was not necessarily the case in my household, but I
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think whether it was environment or being a woman, or certain circumstances, I
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definitely can get sucked into doing too much for my kids, and then that
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that leads to anger and resentment. And I see it, and I think
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it's so helpful to have this understanding that it's not it's not healthy mentally or
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physically for us. And so if I may what I'm what I'm hearing too
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is almost a hesitancy and maybe even an ability to engage with someone and to
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you know, stand up for ourselves and say, you know what, I'm
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not really sure or I can do that, or you know, I don't
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have time to do that. It just reminds me. There's this woman on
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Instagram who is very funny. She does these, she shows herself as doing
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these. She plays this like corporate person and She provides both sides of the
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conversation. One's a polite side and one's the kind of type a boss saying,
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you know what, Dorien, I'd really love you to come in today,
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And this woman gives the other side. Anyway, it just reminded me
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of that. But I'm hearing and I can relate to sometimes that I don't
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want to engage. I don't want to you know, rock the boat and
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on the par and at the continuum, stand up for myself or God forbid,
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you have an argument or a disagreement, right, exactly, And so
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the first part is noticing, right, you can't make any changes unless you're
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aware. So I would say, what are the things that we talk about?
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We talk about first noticing are you doing this? You know, maybe
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why are you doing this? You don't have to spend a lot of time
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trying to figure out why. But it's really just about understanding there's a reason,
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not beating yourself up about it. There's probably a reason somewhere, could
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be multi factored, but there's probably a reason. And then it's about a
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willingness actually to sit with discomfort. We talk about you know, often we
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feel guilty if we don't do certain things or I feel we feel worried if
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we don't do certain things. So really what we talk about on the platform
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is could you sit with that? Would you be willing to in order to
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make sure that you take care of yourself and you're not completely ignoring yourself?
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Sit with some guilt, sit with some worry. What happens? What are
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the costs when you just get into that worry and guilt? What? How
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does that hurt you? How does that maybe lead to anger so that you're
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not as great to be around? How does that make you more tired?
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What would be would you be willing to try? Exploring sitting with guilt and
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not doing the thing that you feel you need to do and just be on
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a journey? Explore well, what happens if I do that? It's not
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easy at all. Of course, you know, our bodies are made to
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protect us from danger. We have the fight or flight response, We have
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anxious feelings that really try to help us not put ourselves in danger. So
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we're really talking about doing the opposite of what feels comfortable, which is hard.
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And another thing that we do is a lot of times types see people
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are not comfortable using their voices. We have not used our voices for many,
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many years, so we don't have the language that we need in certain
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situations. And so what we really try to do is provide people some very
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very practical tools. When someone comes to you and they are asking you to
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do something, and you are somebody who just devolved to yes, what can
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you say in that moment? What can you do in that moment to buy
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yourself some time to say no thoughtfully and grace fully? You know, how
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can you just work in a way that's going to put yourself in a better
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position to not take all this on like you're so accustomed to doing. So
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we really try to just focus on very very practical things that people can do.
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So we talk about so one of the things we talked about with Anna
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and the maternity leave, when the boss calls her like, what do you
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do in that moment? You're frozier? Oh my god, you feel guilty?
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Right, So a great thing is called the delay tactic. We did
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not make this up. This is something that's you know, available to anyone.
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It's part of the sortiveness training toolbox. But can you say something like
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let me think about that. Can I get back to you let me talk
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with my husband about that, or I need to check my schedule, any
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type of delay tactic so that you can slow down and really think about if
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I do this, will this hurt me? Right, there's flexibility. We're
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not saying you never say yes, just that's defaulting always to yes. And
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then we have a whole we have a whole list of ways to say no
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that a type SEE person can handle, right, because you can't just say,
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like your example of the Instagram person, you can't just be kind of
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bossy and say well no, I can't, right, you have to say
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it. For a type SEE person be able to say no, they have
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to say it in a way that they feel comfortable with. And people may
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not have actually had that experience practicing that. Maybe you grow up in a
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household or a cultural environment where you really couldn't say no, so you really
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just don't have that skill. We also talk a lot about being kind to
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yourself, just you know, not blaming yourself. Lots of people struggle with
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this and there are tools that can be helpful. So let me just remind
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everyone I'm speaking with Annah White and doctor Corey lead the Type C Toolbox Project.
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Now, so this is a platform. Now, what do you offer
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on this platform? We have a blogs. We have a website that has
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ashly over one hundred blog posts. Now. It's so funny because when we
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first started this, we thought are we going to have enough material to create
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a blog? And I'm sure you're the same. Like, the ideas just
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keep coming and people have ideas and there's just so much that we wanted we
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want to talk about. So we have a full blog. We've got some
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resources on our website, like a you know, a sheet sheet. We've
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got some you know, therapist recommendations. But we have a podcast. We
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have about forty five episodes. We have an Instagram feed where we've tried to
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post something daily. We're pretty good about that. And we've started working on
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workshops and training. So we've given a couple of talks and we're working on
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some workshops. But you know, for the most part, the idea is
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to try to make people not feel so alone, create some of this community,
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make people realize that we have these resources, and also try to think
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about ways to get into businesses so that we can be talking to team members,
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managers and helping them realize types. See, people are some of your
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best employees. You don't want to lose them to burn out, So teaching
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them and giving educational options for them to realize. You know, Anna,
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you know what, you've been working really hard. I'm not going to add
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another project to your plate. Or Anna, I see you haven't taken that
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much vacation, you know, I think you need to take some vacation.
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Right So, I have had lots of patients who have gone on either medical
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leave or quit jobs, and that's not good form and type. See,
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people will not tell you how they truly feel. We do a lot of
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lying or massaging of the truth because we want to avoid the conflict. We
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don't want to let you down. And so it's very hard for someone with
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these traits to say, I'm really struggling, I need to take a step
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back. You know. Sometimes we just tend to operate in more extremes,
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like I just have to leave, I just have to get out, you
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know, instead of really addressing, you know, trying to come up with
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a solution that's a little bit less extreme. Right now, this is really
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interesting to me because I think so many of us have at least some traits
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of what you're talking about. Just to be clear, this is not an
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official diagnosis, right, no, but not make it up on our own.
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So there, and I was reading this book and there has been research
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on on Type CE traits related to cancer, predominantly in the seventies, and
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the things that they found were that it leads to actually a worse prognosis.
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So if you think that type A person as someone who spends a lot of
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time thinking about themselves and who's kind of a fighter, the person is kind
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of lax. But the type SE person is really very like suppressed this a
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lot, which is never good for a prognosis and isn't really a fighter.
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So you know, we're not saying that there is any medical blame here in
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any way, but it is. It is a real trait. And as
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you know, type A type B were also developed related to illness heart disease.
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So you know, I think it's really just something to work on,
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it's not you know, let's be aware of type C too. We all
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know about type A and type A. So you talked about, you know,
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giving talks and so forth, and can we get a little specific and
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maybe do a little case study of people you've worked with. Some of the
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things they've they've presented to you, and how they show up and maybe how
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you would work with them. What would you use suggest for example? Sure,
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well we can either talk about you, Sure we can talk about me.
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I mean, do you want to give another one of your examples?
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Oh my gosh, there's so many. I don't even know stakes one.
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Yeah, okay, yeah, Well, so this is what we talk about
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on the blog. So on the website, each each entry has to do
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a sort of a specific type C situation that people struggle with, and then
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we go over the tools that you can use. So we've got a lot
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of these, but let's let's do make a mistakes on a big one.
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Making mistakes a big one. I was also just thinking about, like my
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history of not being able to unplug or take vacations. I think this is
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a very tight see thing to do. So I had a boss once upon
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a time who just kind of frowned on vacation, but the company itself didn't
23:22
frown on vacation, and so I really internalized that and didn't want to let
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the team down. Did we'll let hurt down? And so you know,
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I just I took a lot less vacation than I could have or should have
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I needed it, and and and just this like boundary less sort of like
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going into the evening, checking emails all, you know, all through the
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evening up until bedtime, first thing in the morning, checking emails, responding,
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not just checking, but responding. And you know, I think you
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know, companies like that, they love people that are sort of giving that
23:52
much of themselves. But at the end of the day, that's just that's
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not a really healthy thing to do. And so you know, did you
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do that, because it's just this pathological need to be available to people,
24:07
to not disappoint them, to not let them down. There's also this element
24:11
of type C, which is kind of painful to talk about, but where
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you feel a little bit lesser than everyone else, and so you're feeling like
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you really need to prove yourself that much more. And maybe that comes from
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whatever happened as a child, but somewhere along the way you got the message
24:29
that your needs were not as important as other people's needs. So there's a
24:32
real prioritization of everyone else over yourself. And you know, for me,
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it was just default autopilot. It didn't even I didn't even question like this
24:44
behavior. I just did it because it was pathological. I needed to make
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sure that people knew that they could count on me, they could rely on
24:52
me, and that I was there for them. I wouldn't say that is
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something that would be true of all the people that I've seen over the years.
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Who who are you know in this guy's these typese traits, that there
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is a feeling of lesser, a feeling I need to prove myself or self
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esteem. Yeah, it's not. I would say it comes more. You
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know, surprisingly, people can think they're really good at their jobs, but
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it's not as obvious as low self esteem. They're not sort of people you
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think of is that way. They're people who can be very successful, but
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underneath that, if you ask them, they will say so. Again,
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it's a facade, you know, they will not they it's not as obvious.
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You wouldn't pick them out that they seem they're not shy, but they're
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definitely people who work so hard to make sure that they don't make anyone unhappy,
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they don't disappoint people, So you know, I mean, I've had
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many patients over the years. Sometimes it's at work where they're just like Anna
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was talking about working excessively taking work home, having a harder time on you
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know, stopping work, or sometimes I can be at home with kids where
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I see, you know, just working so hard to make kids happy and
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burning yourself in that way. I've had patients unfortunately who've really hit rock bottom
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because they're doing this to themselves and wake up thinking, like, you know,
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I don't want to go on having passive suicibal thoughts. And the hard
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part also, I would say, is that a lot of times, when
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people do so much for other people, whether it's at a job or for
26:30
friends or family, if you start to change that, not everyone in your
26:34
life loves that. So that's another thing we talk about, which is that
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if like I had a patient and she was, you know, wanted to
26:45
take medical leave, she was passively suicidal, having a hard time getting to
26:48
work, and we talked about like, okay, now you're making these changes,
26:52
whether you like it or not. You know, you got to anxiety
26:56
and guilt. You know, we need you to stop working. You gotta
27:00
do this, you gotta do that, and the work commented, right,
27:03
she used to be the one hundred and fifty percenter, and so she wasn't.
27:07
They weren't seeing as much put out product from her, and they weren't
27:11
so happy with that, and you know, I was bummed out, but
27:15
I also realized, like, you're going to get this. And definitely types
27:19
of people can be susceptible to relationships where they either have a friend who's a
27:26
taker, or in worst case scenarios, they're very susceptible to abusive relationships,
27:32
whether it's with a friend or an intimate partner. And so sometimes partners and
27:37
friends are not as happy with you when you make these changes. And so
27:41
deep, yes, this is deep. I mean, what I'm getting here
27:47
is almost a feeling of a lesser you said it anna self worth. It's
27:52
like the space that I take up isn't as valuable as the space that you
27:56
take up, you know, And this is really I know people listening to
28:02
this are like, oh my god. You know, part of this is
28:04
me I can't step into. I can't engage, I can't say, I
28:11
can't even say, you know what, Hang on a second, let me,
28:14
let me let's talk about this tomorrow, or let me talk to my
28:18
partner about it, you know, creating that space that is I can't even
28:22
think about that. It's too much, you know, one of the what
28:26
we talk about is that's not going to change. That may be a part
28:30
of you, but it's an awareness and also noticing how does that drive your
28:34
behavior that hurts you in the long run. So a huge part of our
28:37
work is talent explaining to people and getting your to ask yourself what is the
28:44
cost? Right? All these changes are really difficult. You know, people
28:48
may not be as happy with you in the worst case scenarios, and you
28:52
may feel guilt, You may feel anxiety. Why would you do that?
28:55
That sounds horrible? So it's really about recognizing if you can you to act
29:00
in this way, what's the cost? What's the cost on your health?
29:03
What's the cost on your mental health? How much anger are you feeling?
29:07
How much fatigue and exhaustion are you feeling? Would you be willing to try
29:11
something different? Which is really hard, But ultimately it's about being willing to
29:18
to care about yourself and when you feel lesser, that is so hard.
29:23
So that may not change, But are you willing to act in a different
29:26
way even though you may feel this way deep down? Would you be willing
29:30
to act? I always like to if there's if I can find anyone,
29:33
you know, if someone has a child. Do you want to be role
29:37
modeling this behavior? Is this how you grow up? Or you know,
29:41
any any type of example. Would you what would you say to a friend
29:45
in this situation because that can help people get out of themselves nuts. How
29:49
are you You're not going to you're not going to take your maternity to you?
29:55
Oh my god? All right, So, as we kind of wind
29:59
down here, you also have a podcast. What's the name of your podcast
30:03
type see toolbox. We are sort of across the board type see yeah,
30:07
nice, well smart, I mean an awesome name. That's awesome name.
30:10
So, and who do you have on the podcast? Sometimes it's us,
30:15
and then frequently we have guests, and then we have all types of anything
30:21
related to health, really mental health and physical health. We've had an acupuncturist
30:25
on, We've had we shut down anutropathic doctor, we have a sleep doctor
30:30
on, just anything that sort of intersects with type CEE and health. We
30:34
love to talk to experts in their field, talk to them about, hey,
30:38
do you have any type see patients and how does that sort of manifest
30:41
in your world and talk to us about that. It's been such an amazing
30:45
learning experience. We also had a lawyer who was very not Type C and
30:51
she but she's a woman and she sort of understands that, you know,
30:55
the pitfalls, and so that was really fun because she talked about ways that
30:59
she stands up for herself. She talked about posture. And so we just
31:04
like to find people that we think would be beneficial for someone who has Type
31:08
C to hear from. Well, awesome, all right, ladies, as
31:11
we kind of wind down here, how do people contact you? Well,
31:15
well, let me ask you before we answer that. So they're going to
31:19
go to your website type C toolbox dot com and you have the blog.
31:26
Are you offering what are you offering on the website to help people? So
31:32
we've got the blog, which is about one hundred posts. We've got some
31:34
resources. We've got a cheat sheet of all of our strategies so that it's
31:37
like a little handy handy, like one page reference of like here's all this.
31:41
You don't have to dig through the blog, but here's like the you
31:45
know, the ten things that you need to to think about strategy wise.
31:48
We're working on a book, so we are actively hearing stories from type SEE
31:53
people. We've done gosh, seven or eight interviews now and the stories that
31:56
we're getting are just so incredibly powered. We're always looking for more if anybody's
32:01
interested in that. So that's that's on our website of contact. Yeah,
32:07
So if anyone is listening to the podcast and it's interested in contacting us,
32:10
you can either contact us on our website. It's typees toolbox at gmail dot
32:16
com. You can send us a message on Instagram, which is also type
32:21
see toolbox. But we are working on this book and we would love to
32:24
hear people who want to share their story. We make them anonymous. It's
32:28
over zoom, so it's very easy. Yeah, very cool. I'm just
32:35
adding you on types of toolbox right now. Very cool. Ladies. Awesome,
32:39
super interesting, super inspiring. Na. Thank you for sharing your personal
32:45
story. Really appreciate that, and ladies, love to have you back at
32:51
a later time. Keep any time, Keep yeah, keep, I'd love
32:53
to keep you know a breast of what you guys have going on here again
32:59
type two box dot com. We'll have a link up here at the show
33:01
notes page at the Trauma Favorits podcast dot com. Thank you so much,
33:05
thank you, thank you. Take care, take care,