Latest / Bitcoin for Financial Services Podcast / Self-Custody Under Fire: Lessons From the Cold Card Entropy Failure

Transcript

Self-Custody Under Fire: Lessons From the Cold Card Entropy Failure · Bitcoin for Financial Services Podcast

• 0:00
  I was on a call with somebody for three hours actually on Friday night.
• 0:04
  And my husband was sitting there and he's like, I don't understand how you were so calm through
• 0:09
  that. I was like, imagine you had your entire life savings on a device. And imagine that that
• 0:14
  was my client. And I sent her the device. I was like, I'm going to do everything in my power to
• 0:19
  make sure that this transaction goes as smooth as possible and to make sure that she's comfortable,
• 0:24
  her bitcoin is safe and that's really all that mattered to me at that point in time
• 0:30
  bitcoin is a currency on the internet if you don't trust any other currency this is where you go
• 0:36
  it's going to outperform everything bitcoin could eventually be worthless every day is a good day
• 0:40
  to buy bitcoin bitcoin reached its highest price to date bitcoin hitting a new high it really has
• 0:45
  reached escape velocity there is no second best who cares about bitcoin it's the only secure
• 0:50
  Your database has ever been invented.
• 0:51
  Antisocial.
• 0:53
  Bitcoin is the real deal.
• 0:54
  Stupid.
• 0:55
  Everything is bullish for Bitcoin.
• 0:57
  Immoral.
• 0:58
  It's going up forever, Laura.
• 1:00
  Fix the money.
• 1:01
  Fix the world.
• 1:05
  White Rock is a registered investment advisor,
• 1:06
  and the opinions expressed on the show are their own
• 1:08
  and do not reflect the opinions of the Silk LLC.
• 1:09
  Joining us as a CPA,
• 1:10
  and the opinions expressed on the show are their own
• 1:11
  and do not reflect the opinions of trusted CPA
• 1:12
  or other affiliated firms.
• 1:13
  Information presented is for educational purposes only
• 1:15
  and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation
• 1:16
  for the sale or purchase of any specific securities,
• 1:17
  investments, or investment strategies.
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  Investments involve risk and almost otherwise
• 1:19
  data are not guaranteed. Information expressed is not taking into account your specific situation
• 1:22
  or objectives is not intended as a recommendation appropriate for any individual. Listeners are
• 1:24
  encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax legal or investment advisor to determine whether
• 1:26
  any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is
• 1:29
  not indicative of future performance. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice.
• 1:36
  Welcome to Bitcoin for Financial Services Media, the podcast where sound money meets professional
• 1:41
  services. We explore how to build a financial service industry within the principles, values,
• 1:46
  and ethos of Bitcoin. A big part of that is our flagship event coming up in Denver from October
• 1:51
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• 2:01
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• 2:07
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• 2:11
  bffs.media.com. Looking forward to seeing you there.
• 2:16
  Today, we're joined by a special guest, amazing conversation, Chantel Lillecrop, VP of Operations
• 2:24
  at Bitcoin Well.
• 2:25
  Let's get started.
• 2:31
  All right, welcome back to another episode of the Bitcoin for Financial Services podcast.
• 2:37
  Today, we have a very special guest on.
• 2:40
  We have Chantel from Bitcoin Well.
• 2:42
  She's the VP of Operations.
• 2:44
  and man, what a timely episode.
• 2:47
  I think we've had this on the calendar
• 2:49
  for, I don't know, maybe a month or so
• 2:52
  and it should have happened a long time ago
• 2:54
  but I'm glad that it happened this week
• 2:57
  in light of all of the terrible circumstances
• 2:59
  because Chantel, I think that you are the exact person
• 3:03
  we should be talking to about self-custody
• 3:06
  and especially with how advisors should be moving forward.
• 3:10
  So thank you for being with us.
• 3:12
  How's the crazy week going for you?
• 3:15
  No, thank you both so much for having me.
• 3:18
  You're right.
• 3:19
  Even though this has been on the calendar for quite some time, I'm really happy that the conversation is happening now.
• 3:26
  Unfortunately, the weekend and the past couple of days have been absolutely insane.
• 3:32
  dealing with all of our clients who either were using cold cards and looking to migrate urgently
• 3:38
  or now who just have questions on am I doing self-custody right and how can I do this better
• 3:44
  to make sure that number one that the seed that I generated is going to be secure but also so that
• 3:53
  I'm not going to over complicate my setup in the future so that I lose access so it's been very
• 3:59
  busy, but it's, you know, there's a lot of learnings that are coming out of this instance
• 4:04
  right now. And I'm happy to go through some of those. Yeah, no, I think you're the perfect guest
• 4:12
  to have on because we haven't really dug into this. You know, Jordan and I have talked, you know,
• 4:18
  internally and, you know, shared ideas. But why don't we just take it start to beginning or, you
• 4:24
  start to finish here, Chantel, like, okay, you know, you and Bitcoin Well team learn of it. What
• 4:31
  was kind of your communication, you know, kind of general, you know, any like PR releases? How are
• 4:36
  you reaching out to clients? How are you working with clients? And kind of what was like the solution?
• 4:43
  Yeah, absolutely. So on Thursday afternoon, I was on X and I started reading Rob's posts about this
• 4:50
  and about how I think at that point in time, there are about 600 Bitcoin that had been lost.
• 4:56
  So I threw it, I threw the post in our Slack family channel and I just advise all of our
• 5:01
  internal employees at that point in time. Hey guys, if you're using cold cards, like
• 5:06
  this situation is happening right now There not a lot of research that been published yet nothing specifically from CoinKite but take a look at your wallets and start following along Throughout the afternoon
• 5:17
  as things became more public and as the research was actually coming out showing what the bug was,
• 5:25
  showing that the RNG was not correct and that the entropy was not where it should have been,
• 5:32
  And that's when we started to generate all of our marketing communications.
• 5:37
  So not only were we making sure that our employees had their coins safe, but we started putting out communications on social media, just advising people on what the situation was, what the next steps should be, and to contact us if they needed any help.
• 5:54
  And then after that, we sent out an email to our entire customer base.
• 6:00
  So over 70,000 people just enlightening them in regards to what was going on.
• 6:06
  That email probably went out about 10 p.m. Mountain Time.
• 6:12
  Our marketing head of Mountain Time.
• 6:14
  Yes.
• 6:15
  Our head of marketing was up.
• 6:18
  He's on the East Coast.
• 6:20
  And so he's up with me at midnight his time writing this email, going through, making sure that we're not scaring our customers
• 6:28
  because we don't want them to act and make a mistake.
• 6:30
  But we're providing them with all the information,
• 6:34
  what to do today and letting them know that we were online
• 6:38
  if they needed any help.
• 6:40
  And Chantel, sorry to interrupt.
• 6:43
  If we could just pause there.
• 6:46
  Two things on that.
• 6:48
  So do we know what the first post about this was?
• 6:53
  I'm not even sure who actually sounded the alarm
• 6:56
  or how this came to anybody's attention?
• 6:59
  You know, I'm not sure what the first post was.
• 7:02
  The first post that I read was by Rob at Anchor Watch
• 7:06
  and he was doing the research.
• 7:08
  And actually, no, you know what had happened?
• 7:11
  There was a post on Reddit in the Bitcoin subreddit
• 7:15
  and somebody had sounded the alarm
• 7:17
  and essentially said that,
• 7:18
  hey, their cold card was completely drained.
• 7:22
  And then that made it over to NVK
• 7:24
  And NVK publicly on his ex posted a screenshot of it and said, don't listen to this.
• 7:31
  There's no vulnerability.
• 7:32
  I'm paraphrasing.
• 7:34
  But the guy uploaded a bad seed or generated a bad seed.
• 7:39
  That all turned out to be very incorrect because all of a sudden there started to be more and more instances of people's wallets being drained.
• 7:47
  And they definitely did not import their seeds from other devices.
• 7:52
  They said that they generated them specifically on the cold card devices.
• 7:57
  And then all of a sudden, NVK went quiet.
• 7:59
  And that's when other people in the industry started to pop up and started to do their own independent research.
• 8:06
  And so, honestly, Rob was the one that I was following along with the most.
• 8:11
  And that's where I was getting a lot of my information from.
• 8:14
  And then it was probably, I can't remember, sometime in the evening, I was on a Spaces.
• 8:21
  And then they hadn't publicly released this because CoinKite hadn't said anything.
• 8:26
  And what they were debating on is if we show what the bug is right now, is that going to create a wider attack factor because some other nefarious factor or some other nefarious person is going to come in and exploit this?
• 8:39
  Ultimately, they decided that it would have been much worse if they didn't publish this because then people wouldn't be able to move their coins as soon as possible.
• 8:50
  So that went out. And then a couple hours later on CoinKite's X, then they actually talked about what was going on and made the security notice. However, but that first one was just for the MK3, right? Like they only referenced the MK3.
• 9:07
  Yeah, absolutely. It was just for the MK3. And so that's what we were focused on at the moment, or at that point in time, was just telling people about that device. But then, as the time went on, started to get more and more reports that it wasn't just that. It was literally every product, well, every cold card that they had up to the queue.
• 9:29
  and at that point in time that's when people started really you know panicking um and
• 9:36
  what we found later was that you know if you did not use a device level entropy generation
• 9:44
  and you did go forward and roll the dice not even the fit not even rolling dice 50 times rolling
• 9:51
  dice 100 times to generate the correct level of entropy or the correct level of randomness
• 9:57
  that's when your Bitcoin was deemed to be safe.
• 10:01
  And if there was a secure passphrase at that point in time.
• 10:05
  Yeah.
• 10:06
  And maybe we just backtrack just a little bit specifically about Bitcoin Well
• 10:11
  and your infinite service, because you all are an OTC desk
• 10:17
  and you and your clients specifically were I would say more affected by something like this happening than a traditional custodian like a Coinbase or a River because the keys are at the exchange in that instance
• 10:34
  And with you all, your customers have a different setup.
• 10:38
  Maybe talk our audience through just maybe more about your all service, just so that they can kind of understand the difference between the OTC desk and a traditional exchange.
• 10:53
  Yeah, absolutely. So Bitcoin All Infinite is a concierge non-custodial OTC desk.
• 10:59
  And so what that means is that all of our clients have a one-on-one dedicated advisor.
• 11:04
  And when you're dealing with us, we do not hold your coins.
• 11:07
  So unlike an exchange where you have to ask permission to use your coins, we can't actually generate the transaction or start the transaction until we know that your wallet is set up correctly, until you give us an address to send your Bitcoin to.
• 11:22
  At no moment in time do we hold the coins for you. And so the minute that we exchange from fiat to Bitcoin, we send it directly to you.
• 11:31
  And so the reason why our customers and what we were worried about that they would have been more affected is because of that.
• 11:38
  Because, you know, Cold Guard was marketed as the most secure device out there.
• 11:44
  I am extremely thankful, though, that the nice thing about us having that personal relationship with our customers versus an exchange who it's a very impersonal transactional relationship.
• 11:56
  we always ask our customers, where are you at in your Bitcoin journey?
• 12:02
  And what I always told them is if somebody came to us and they're interested in buying Bitcoin,
• 12:08
  but you know what, maybe they only had experience buying on an exchange,
• 12:11
  or maybe it's their first time, or maybe they're just not tech savvy at all.
• 12:16
  And they don't really understand Bitcoin at the protocol level.
• 12:20
  I would never advise a cold card to them and neither would our team.
• 12:24
  And the reason being is because if myself being in Bitcoin for over seven years now, if I had that much anxiety setting up my gold card, when I set up the starting with the Mark three and going up, if I lock myself in the room, tell my husband, do not talk to me for the next hour or until I come out of this room.
• 12:49
  You know, not everyone is meant to go through that process.
• 12:54
  And it's extremely important for our customers to give them.
• 12:59
  We always want them to go into self-custody and we always want them to be in complete control of their assets.
• 13:04
  But I also don't want them to get locked out of their assets.
• 13:08
  And so we wouldn't typically recommend the cold card.
• 13:11
  And so thankfully, we have only had a few customers that we've had to migrate over.
• 13:20
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• 13:43
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• 13:48
  Perfect.
• 13:49
  Yeah, it's so funny because with one of my buddies, we just kind of have like this running joke because I called him one time.
• 13:55
  He's like, hey, I can't talk right now.
• 13:57
  I'm in the middle of a cold card transaction.
• 13:58
  I was just like, oh, my goodness, I'm so sorry, because it literally took like all your brainpower to like focus on what you're doing because their UX sucks so much.
• 14:06
  And it was like not intuitive to to use the device.
• 14:09
  And so, yeah, and you have a similar situation, you know, where I fortunately didn't end up recommending cold cards very often just because you do need to be pretty technical and savvy in that realm to utilize the device.
• 14:25
  Yeah, use the device confidently.
• 14:28
  And so Thursday night last week, you know, so what was that?
• 14:34
  That was like July 31st, I think, 30th maybe.
• 14:39
  We're hearing rumblings of vulnerability.
• 14:43
  Cold card comes out, their official press release.
• 14:46
  This is, you know, isolated to the MK3.
• 14:48
  Bitcoin well, 10 p.m. Mountain Time.
• 14:51
  You guys send out a massive email blast here, 70,000 clients.
• 14:56
  And then I started hearing rumblings Thursday evening, you know, took their word for it that it was confined to a single model, older model.
• 15:06
  But then I get in the office Friday morning and at 1 a.m. Mountain Time, Cole Carr had come out with their official press release that all their models were affected.
• 15:20
  So after your guys' blast comes out and Cole Carr comes out with their official statement, were you guys inundated with calls come Friday morning then?
• 15:30
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:31
  Absolutely.
• 15:32
  We were you know my calendar throughout the entire weekend as well as our teams was dealing with our customers that were looking to migrate as soon as possible
• 15:43
  A lot of our customers as well, they weren't only looking for advice, but unfortunately, because of the bad UX with the cold card,
• 15:53
  they were actually looking for us to be able to handhold them through migrating to a new device.
• 15:58
  And of course, everybody is in a sense of panic. And so we just had to sit there calmly with them. I was on a call with somebody for three hours, actually, on Friday night. And my husband was sitting there and he's like, I don't understand how you were so calm through that.
• 16:13
  It was like, imagine you had your entire life savings on a device and imagine that that was my client and I sent her the device.
• 16:21
  It was like, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that this transaction goes as smooth as possible and to make sure that she's comfortable, her Bitcoin is safe.
• 16:31
  And that's really all that mattered to me at that point in time.
• 16:34
  And so that's what we were focused on. And then that's on the Bitcoin All Infinite side and also on our portal transactions with the retail clients.
• 16:45
  On Friday morning, what we did is we met with the customer support team.
• 16:50
  We made sure that they were extremely well armed with advice on what to do in this situation, how to safely migrate.
• 16:57
  And then we created booking links where any of our customers that maybe weren't at that Bitcoin all infinite level, they still had that support so that they didn't have to do it on their own so that they could actually be on a video call with somebody and not just connecting through a chat bot or through email.
• 17:15
  We just wanted to make sure that everyone was supported throughout the entire company.
• 17:20
  Yeah, I mean, it should be noted that this has been in the code base since 2021.
• 17:27
  And when Wyatt and I spoke on Friday, it kind of dawned on us that even if they had discovered this, say, last year, and they knew about it, it had already affected every seed that had been generated from 2021 onward.
• 17:44
  and supposedly we could get into this if we wanted to supposedly coin coin kite didn't
• 17:50
  retain you know customer emails or anything like that right kind of a privacy forward or first
• 17:57
  business so i just thought it was kind of interesting that even if they had discovered this
• 18:01
  how do you even tell your customers that they need to go generate a new seed you don't have
• 18:07
  their emails so you have to just blast it out and then you know we haven't mentioned yet but
• 18:12
  Kimmy K3 came out. The newest open weight model came out, I think, on Monday of last week. And
• 18:17
  people suspected that might be involved with the hacking of these seed phrases. But
• 18:23
  that just blew my mind. Can you even imagine if you knew about this, but you couldn't
• 18:31
  adequately tell your customers that they're in danger because it might put them more in danger?
• 18:36
  And I don't know if that's happened. I'm sure there'll be a big investigation, but
• 18:40
  just thought that was very just an interesting conundrum for them to have found themselves in
• 18:46
  so it is interesting but unfortunately uh them not having customer emails also turned out to be
• 18:55
  a bit of a farce um so right so i don't know about you guys but i got emails uh from coin kite my
• 19:04
  clients got emails from coin kite but not until days later i think it was i can't remember if it
• 19:10
  was Saturday or Sunday, but I got the email and then one of my clients who on Friday I had helped
• 19:16
  migrate and they're like, I thought they deleted all customer information. And so that's a whole
• 19:22
  different rabbit hole that we can go down as well. But on the aspect of it being planted or maybe not
• 19:29
  planted, if we don't want to say that, but if they released the bug in 2021, there were a ton of bug
• 19:37
  reports that are coming out now where they had to have known about it and it seems like they
• 19:43
  potentially chose to ignore it and I do understand obviously there's that risk as a company is like
• 19:49
  you don't want to create more fear however you're continuing to save save or sell the same devices
• 19:56
  and not tell any future customers and I don't know I think that CoinKite would have still had
• 20:03
  a future if they just told people like, hey, we made a mistake. We released this bug. We patched
• 20:09
  it. Here's what you have to do as a next step. Generate a new seed. But now there's no coming
• 20:16
  back for them. I think everyone has lost trust and there's a 0% chance that I would ever recommend
• 20:22
  their devices. I don't care what it is to anybody in the industry or any of our future customers.
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• 21:09
  Yeah, well, a couple interesting points that I just hopped on the CoinKite store. It does look
• 21:15
  like they are still selling devices but yeah they are they are on sale
• 21:23
  literally these guys are good for literally never doing discounts like i remember one time i'd like
• 21:33
  you know checked out and then i forgot you know my boy guy swan you had a
• 21:40
  like 5% discount code or whatever.
• 21:43
  And I forgot about it.
• 21:44
  And I emailed their support and was like,
• 21:46
  oh, I just checked out, you know,
• 21:48
  could I get my 5% discount?
• 21:50
  They're like, no.
• 21:51
  I was like, well, could you at least like mark him down
• 21:53
  as like, this is the reason I bought the device?
• 21:55
  They're like, no.
• 21:56
  I was like, okay, whatever.
• 21:59
  But they have a, it's literally just highlighted here.
• 22:02
  It says new unit ship with corrected firmware.
• 22:05
  Remember to always upgrade on receipt.
• 22:07
  And then I thought I saw a formal statement from them saying that they've destroyed their entire inventory because they couldn't update the firmware without opening the box.
• 22:20
  So I don't know how quickly they're manufacturing these devices now to actually be able to ship new devices with updated firmware.
• 22:27
  That's interesting.
• 22:28
  But yeah, Chantel, that's something I want to double click on because I got an email from Cold Card as well.
• 22:35
  It was probably Sunday or Monday, but I remember Thursday night, like not knowing if I should be like worried about this at all.
• 22:44
  I went through my emails and I was like, almost positive.
• 22:49
  You know, I, I didn't have like a Mark three, you know, it was like the oldest model I had was like a Mark four.
• 22:54
  And I was like, well, maybe I should just double check.
• 22:57
  And I found the emails, but I couldn't look at the invoice because it's like, oh, this link had expired.
• 23:02
  So I had no way to like verify like what device model I had ordered without, you know, physically getting to my keys, which isn't like the easiest thing to do at the drop of a hat.
• 23:16
  Right. And lo and behold, I get an email from CoinCat and it's like, OK, so which is it?
• 23:23
  Like, do you destroy like customer records or do you do you keep it on hand?
• 23:28
  And then if you did have it on hand, like why didn't you send it earlier?
• 23:31
  You could have at least sent like your public blog releases.
• 23:35
  You got sent 70,000 emails in like, what, 15 minutes?
• 23:40
  Like, come on.
• 23:41
  Well, that's exactly what some of our clients said to us.
• 23:44
  And some of my clients said to me personally, is they're like, why did I hear about this from Bitcoin Wealth first?
• 23:51
  And they sent me, one of my clients specifically forwarded me the email that she got from CoinKite and was like, number one, they didn't destroy my information.
• 24:00
  number two this is like three days late why did i hear about it from you guys first thank you of
• 24:06
  course but this is incredibly irresponsible for a company um a company where you know you are
• 24:12
  putting millions of dollars of customers bitcoin at risk hundreds of millions yeah yeah i'm actually
• 24:21
  just looking at the email right now that i got in 2022 that says we are now blinking old customer
• 24:27
  records automatically. So really, I guess that was not true. So Chantel, I kind of want to go
• 24:36
  down, you know, Bitcoin is always on the bleeding edge of a lot of tech related things. And of
• 24:42
  course, I mean, we can go a bunch of different directions with this question, but there's a lot
• 24:46
  of people now saying maybe self custody is not what everyone should be considering. Maybe they
• 24:51
  should go pile into the ETF or hold coins on custodians. So I want to give you, maybe we just
• 24:58
  start there. I want to give you an opportunity to respond to that and especially help advisors
• 25:05
  think through how they should be having these conversations with their clients.
• 25:10
  Yeah, absolutely. Number one, what happened is absolutely devastating for the people that lost
• 25:17
  their coins and for how this makes self custody look for a lot of people. That is not the reason
• 25:24
  to give up on this and to exit and move to an ETF. As an advisor and as people within this Bitcoin
• 25:32
  industry, one of the things that we really failed on is we trusted and we did not verify. I think
• 25:39
  every single person now is going to extremely take that to heart and make sure that we are
• 25:44
  verifying before verifying before we are trusting um we have to with self-custody now i think that
• 25:54
  there going to be a lot of innovation that going to come out and it going to make it easier i mean we already seeing like what block is doing with the BitKey Like that is something that is very easy to get into
• 26:08
  You don't have to go through the complexity of rolling dice,
• 26:12
  which I know that everyone is starting, which is obviously very important,
• 26:16
  but it's also not realistic, I think, for every single person getting into Bitcoin.
• 26:23
  So we have to start looking at easier innovations for them
• 26:27
  And also we have to be candid and just asking the customer, like, what is your comfort level with this?
• 26:33
  There's everything from going from a single SIG device to all the way down to, say, a collaborative custody model where you can still be in control of majority of the keys.
• 26:47
  But you can also have redundancy with a trusted verified and trusted company.
• 26:53
  But it doesn't mean that we have to completely give away what Bitcoin was created for and the freedom that it represents.
• 27:02
  If we just kind of lose the plot in that sense, you know, Bitcoin was created to create an alternative financial system as well.
• 27:11
  It's created to fix the financial system that we have.
• 27:15
  And if we're just moving into ETFs, it doesn't really fix anything, in my opinion.
• 27:20
  And also things that we have to look at are the fact that when you go to an ETF or when you go to a custodian, you're just replacing the risk.
• 27:32
  So there's different risks when you can't necessarily audit how a custodian is managing their coins or what their internal key setup looks like.
• 27:41
  Will they lose access to their keys? Do they have bugs in their software?
• 27:46
  You can find an easier setup for yourself.
• 27:49
  And so I think that I guess the one major takeaway is to make sure that we are meeting our customers where they're at and understanding what is their level of complexity, how, what devices should we be recommending to them, and then also making sure that we're doing the research on those.
• 28:08
  yeah and real quick um just so that everyone knows if you haven't been like looking into this
• 28:15
  very extensively if you're not chronically on x the specific bug was that it did not have the keys
• 28:22
  that were generated the seed phrases were not random enough and i liked how rob hamilton put
• 28:27
  it basically if you had a deck of cards and you're creating entropy for randomness with a deck of
• 28:33
  cards, you use a full 52 deck of cards. There's a bunch of different variations of how those cards
• 28:42
  could be, you know, what order they could be in. Now, if you only use 10 or 20 of the cards,
• 28:47
  it's much, much less random. And that's basically what happened here. The seeds were generated using
• 28:54
  20 cards out of the 52 instead of the 52 out of the 52. It's kind of an easy way to understand
• 29:00
  the random number generator that rng term you'll hear uh that was the that was the bug so just so
• 29:06
  that if anybody's not following uh like the source of all of this just want to say that out loud
• 29:12
  so uh wide i'll throw it over to you i just want to make sure i said that no it's a good point which
• 29:18
  is why you know i think this it makes it even more disastrous you know it's like an error like this
• 29:24
  you know they failed step one you know that that is literally like step one of a hardware
• 29:30
  manufacturer is to make sure, you know, seed phrase can be generated with the full amount
• 29:36
  of entropy needed.
• 29:37
  And it was even worse, you know, block, you know, people interested in looking, you know,
• 29:41
  more in depth on this block did a tremendous report and, you know, it's super technical.
• 29:47
  You could throw it into cloud or chat or whatever to help you kind of digest it a little easier.
• 29:54
  And it was even worse too, because it sounds like some of the, the entropy was already
• 29:57
  deterministic with like a serial number, you know, on the chip already is what they were using in
• 30:02
  their seed generation. So the attackers, you know, already kind of knew a baseline, like where to
• 30:09
  start. So no other way to say besides, you know, colossal failure. But Chantel, one of the things,
• 30:15
  you know, I've been kind of pondering on with this is it feels worse because it feels like
• 30:22
  this came from within the Bitcoin community,
• 30:25
  you kind of have to be a hard-o to use a cold card, right?
• 30:29
  Like you're about it.
• 30:30
  And for it to originate via an attack vector,
• 30:36
  originate being self-Custy,
• 30:38
  do you think self-Custy is dead?
• 30:42
  You kind of mentioned how we can come back from here,
• 30:45
  but do you think this at least set us back five years, ten years?
• 30:48
  Like, do you think, I guess, just what are your thoughts on the self-custody landscape and how people are feeling on it?
• 30:56
  Yeah, I definitely don't think self-custody is dead.
• 30:59
  I do think it will temporarily set us back because of the level of fear that it's induced in people.
• 31:06
  I getting clients that you know are reaching out and they don know what the next steps are And they are wondering like should I just liquidate my Bitcoin Should I just move back to an exchange
• 31:21
  But it just takes one conversation with them and reminding them why they got into Bitcoin
• 31:26
  and the possibilities that it gives you in the future and what it means to be your own
• 31:32
  custodian and why that's important and why outsourcing that risk is not always the right
• 31:39
  move for everyone. It's not going to die. It's going to evolve. And I think that this is going
• 31:46
  to teach us so many important things. And I'm really excited about the innovation that's going
• 31:52
  to come of this. You know what, asking every single customer right now, what I've been reading
• 31:57
  is, well, if you want to self-custody, you have to generate your own entropy. You have to roll
• 32:05
  the dice a hundred times. You have to set up a secure seed phrase. We have to be realistic and
• 32:10
  say that that is not going to be the reality for the vast majority of people. So we have to innovate
• 32:18
  on other safe products that still allow our customers or still allow people in general to
• 32:24
  hold the vast majority of the keys. But we're going to make it safer. And we're going to make
• 32:29
  better UX. And we're not going to go back to that experience of where I'm locking myself in my room
• 32:35
  and telling my husband to leave me alone while I'm setting up devices. Like we have to start
• 32:41
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• 33:16
  yeah and where i was going with my previous question originally was you know we're always
• 33:24
  kind of the first to get hit by something whether it's because of how liquid the bitcoin network is
• 33:29
  you know we can move on the weekends if there's news that hits moves markets we're always the
• 33:34
  first ones and then monday morning comes and then the market will move and kind of follows what
• 33:39
  bitcoin does most of the time and of course with all this ai stuff you know people think it's bad
• 33:44
  for Bitcoin with the BIF39 words and these 24 word seed phrases and multi-signature custody setups,
• 33:58
  most people are operating off of the same password that they use for every bank login.
• 34:03
  And they're using a four-digit PIN to pull cash out of the ATM. And so I don't think we can just
• 34:12
  skirt by that because yes, people in TradFi will take a moment to dunk on Bitcoin once, you know,
• 34:18
  LinkedIn learns about this in a month. But just talk us through Chantel, like, what are the other
• 34:25
  options for people? Are you going to just rely on the password that you've always used with your
• 34:31
  brokerage accounts? Like how safe is all of the financial infrastructure outside of Bitcoin for
• 34:38
  businesses and individuals with the AI, the voice, you know, you can make yourself, I can make myself
• 34:45
  sound like Chantel or like Wyatt using 11 Labs pretty easily. So I'm just curious to get your
• 34:52
  thoughts on where does the TradFi world go from here, you think? Yeah, I think if Bitcoin is at
• 35:00
  risk with the amount of entry that the vast majority of devices hold, the TradFi has to
• 35:09
  improve. And so I was just reading and I haven't validated this yet, but I was just reading that
• 35:15
  there could be another attack probably using Kimi3 on TradFi at the moment. And so I think,
• 35:22
  you know, nothing is safe at this point in time. And would I trust my funds, like you said, behind
• 35:29
  a password that has been used forever or behind a four digit code that I'm using to withdraw my
• 35:35
  funds. Would I trust the vast majority of that in the traditional financial system? Or would I trust
• 35:43
  Bitcoin to be able to secure things beyond what the banking institutions can? I think that there's
• 35:53
  a massive level of risk. We need to improve our cybersecurity practices. The traditional financial
• 35:59
  system does because otherwise everything could be uh it it could be taken at that point in time
• 36:08
  yeah why what are your thoughts as our token trad fi guy where do you think where do you think ai
• 36:17
  goes with this well i i mean i think you you totally spot on you know uh i think yeah people have just in general outside of Bitcoin like horrendous security hygiene You know I thankful personally to the Bitcoin community for just making me more aware of these things
• 36:35
  You know, so I think, you know, a lot of these, you know, try to find institutions will be, you know, at risk for, you know, future AI attacks.
• 36:43
  You know, how much compute gets pointed towards their particular proprietary, you know, solution or whatever.
• 36:49
  I would say, you know, the tricky thing in Bitcoin, you know, it's finite, you know, from Wells Fargo gets robbed, like you just print more money and make everybody whole FDIC, like big deal, you know.
• 37:00
  So I do think, you know, the costs associated with this, you know, potential tax are different in Bitcoin land.
• 37:08
  You know, I think it's very interesting, you know, AI question.
• 37:12
  Just that I think this has changed some.
• 37:14
  I think Rob Hamilton has said that they've gotten access to some of chat or open AI's, you know, frontier models.
• 37:24
  But I just think it's crazy.
• 37:25
  You know, the American frontier models can even be used in defense of an attack like this to audit, you know, software.
• 37:32
  You know, you have to use open source Chinese models.
• 37:35
  And that feels a little backwards to me as a as a Western man.
• 37:39
  So I think you're right, man.
• 37:41
  Like it is a very interesting little experience we all went through.
• 37:46
  And I think there's a lot of different third, fourth order effects that we're not totally aware of yet.
• 37:53
  Yeah, I'll be curious.
• 37:56
  This question for you, Chantel, you know, something that happened on our team tax call on Tuesday was all about identity verification.
• 38:04
  I'm curious if you have anything to share in the age of AI with how your team is, you know, being equipped to, to know that they're speaking with the customer, especially given the nature of you all moving funds to this address and whatnot.
• 38:22
  Can you kind of talk us through if it's something you're able to share on how you're thinking about ID verification in the sense of like, am I actually talking to the person I think I'm talking to, whether it's internal or external to the company?
• 38:36
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 38:37
  So it's something that's very top of mind.
• 38:39
  And what it comes down to is you have to start collecting more device information when you're originally going through the account setup process.
• 38:48
  device fingerprinting becomes so important because when you start to see, you can start to see
• 38:55
  different patterns when you know, if you have an assumption that you might not be dealing with the
• 39:01
  correct person, there's something that will happen regarding their IP movement. What type of device
• 39:07
  are they moving? Are they using? Sorry. It becomes less about like, who am I talking to face to face
• 39:14
  and what information can I collect from them that is public and that we can pull to verify that,
• 39:21
  hey, like this person says that they're talking to me from this city.
• 39:25
  Well, why is their device pinging from Europe?
• 39:29
  What is going on here?
• 39:30
  And so that's how we have to start looking at it.
• 39:32
  It's not just about what does their voice sound like or what are they showing me on a video screen?
• 39:39
  Like we really have to start looking at other technical components to make sure that they're safeguarded.
• 39:47
  Yeah, I mean, I could even see this reigniting the Nostra conversation.
• 39:51
  I mean, that's at least where my head went.
• 39:53
  Of course, like Nostra was kind of a, people think of it as a Twitter replacement, right?
• 39:57
  But Nostra at the end of the day is really a public, private, key pair communication network similar to Bitcoin, but instead of moving money, moving information.
• 40:07
  And so, yeah, I don't have a question about that. I'm just kind of curious to see what products and services are built on top of that.
• 40:17
  Since I don't know, would you all feel safe saying that Noster in its current form has been a bit underwhelming as to what it was compared to what it was promised?
• 40:29
  Yeah, to be honest, I haven't been on Noster in an extremely long time. And I think that probably says a lot as to why.
• 40:36
  But going back to that idea, that is the way that things will have to be migrating as fraud attempts and impersonation attempts become so much easier.
• 40:48
  Signing cryptographic messages.
• 40:51
  Let's be able to, we can easily do that.
• 40:54
  We can verify that aspect.
• 40:55
  But right now, even just signing a PGP key and being able to share it that way, those are really good and more secure ways that we can start to make sure that we are communicating and sharing information correctly.
• 41:12
  Yeah, it's crazy.
• 41:14
  One thing on this topic, I do also want to talk about some Bitcoin family office as well, which is kind of what we initially planned on talking about before this whole fiasco.
• 41:25
  Uh, you, and, you know, Chantel and I were talking about this, you know, before we, we hit record, but.
• 41:32
  I think, you know, one of the things we need to manage as advisors in the, the Bitcoin space right now is obviously, you know, everybody's freaked
• 41:39
  out and like rightfully so, but they just want to like ape into like the most intense security,
• 41:45
  elaborate, you know, setup that they could possibly imagine. And we just kind of need to,
• 41:49
  you know, ground ourselves. And I think it was Willy Wu who posted some information about like
• 41:55
  most Bitcoin loss via self-custries, via, by human error. So, you know, if you want to,
• 42:02
  you know, create an insane setup now with like a 15 word passphrase or, you know, whatever,
• 42:09
  because you're spooked about what just happened,
• 42:12
  like next time you go to use it or send Bitcoin,
• 42:16
  six months, two years, whatever from now,
• 42:19
  you need to make sure you aren't setting yourself up for failure
• 42:23
  by creating this very complex custody solution
• 42:27
  that doesn't match either your technical competence
• 42:30
  or realistic reliability for ease of use moving forward,
• 42:37
  especially for your heirs when it comes to like an inheritance kind of situation.
• 42:43
  And so I just wanted to say that, you know, I'm curious in your guys' thoughts,
• 42:46
  can you chime in?
• 42:47
  But I think that's something I've personally been trying to talk people off the ledge a
• 42:51
  little bit, if you will, where it's like, hey, this isn't like, obviously it's bad,
• 42:55
  but, you know, we can't go like full nuclear the other way either because that also could
• 42:59
  be bad.
• 43:00
  yeah that um that is people's natural reaction right now is like i need to do the most intense
• 43:10
  thing possible to make sure that things are secured and so we've been able to isolate this
• 43:15
  down to one issue and so the issue is that the numbers weren't or sorry that it wasn't random
• 43:22
  enough essentially and so going through and although multi-device multi-sig is the gold
• 43:30
  standard now and like truthfully the safest way it's not always safe for yourself and so going
• 43:38
  through we have to sit down with our customers and again we have to make sure that they're not
• 43:44
  going to lock themselves out in the future and a single sig wallet for a smaller amount of holdings
• 43:51
  if you know how to properly generate a seed and the device has been peer reviewed and made sure
• 43:58
  that there are no issues with it at this point in time, like that might be okay. And then you can
• 44:04
  migrate to more of a collaborative custody setup if that's something that's better for you.
• 44:09
  One of the things I was talking to my team about before this call was it's, we have to also advise
• 44:18
  our customers on not only setting up the device in the way that they think is correct at first,
• 44:25
  but also practicing emergency situations. What if you're traveling and you set up that extremely
• 44:33
  complicated setup, and then all of a sudden you didn't properly document that you're on a plane,
• 44:39
  you're out of the country, you can't get back, what's going to happen? You have to make sure that
• 44:44
  you have a redundancy plan, especially if you're starting to hold significant amount of wealth.
• 44:51
  And if you're looking at passing that wealth onto your family and not having it be lost.
• 44:58
  Yeah. Yeah. And has anyone heard officially from folks like Anchor Watch on whether an incident
• 45:06
  like this would have been insurable? Do we know on that? Or I guess it wouldn't have happened in
• 45:13
  the first place because they wouldn't have been on a single SIG.
• 45:17
  Yeah.
• 45:17
  Yeah.
• 45:18
  My understanding of anchor watch specifically is you can only hold a
• 45:20
  maximum of one key yourself and the other two keys are proprietarily
• 45:25
  generated by them for it to be insurable.
• 45:29
  Okay.
• 45:31
  But all that to say, I mean, that's one of the main reasons that we started
• 45:34
  this right is to be on the forefront of everyone.
• 45:38
  Obviously you have to do your own research, right?
• 45:41
  you have to shake hands and,
• 45:43
  and do business with who you trust at the end of the day,
• 45:45
  but we do our very best here to present you with options that at least we
• 45:52
  know the people, but at the end of the day, we're not coders. So yeah,
• 45:56
  get Kimmy, I guess, to, to audit open source software code bases.
• 46:01
  Yeah. Let's, let's take the conversation over to the family office.
• 46:04
  I think that that's been a, a really bright spot for the three of us,
• 46:09
  you know, as well as others that aren't on the call.
• 46:12
  But Chantel, maybe give the audience like the elevator pitch on the Bitcoin family office,
• 46:19
  how you all fit into that and what value you think it brings to your clients.
• 46:25
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 46:25
  So the Bitcoin family office group is a Bitcoin native coordinated service platform for customers
• 46:32
  that are in the five to 50 million net worth realm.
• 46:37
  What we're building right now and the problem that we're trying to solve is that a lot of
• 46:43
  customers especially as your Bitcoin wealth starts to grow they don have people they don have professionals who absolutely understand what Bitcoin is and how to treat it from say a tax standpoint which is why we work with you Jordan or from Wyatt
• 47:01
  if they need somebody who is advising on different financial strategies utilizing Bitcoin,
• 47:10
  they don't want their financial advisor to be advising them to sell Bitcoin because it's a scam.
• 47:15
  They want to go to somebody who can make concrete recommendations based on, you know, maybe based on market cycles or based on their portfolio or based on their individual goals themselves.
• 47:28
  We also have a legal, we also work with Kyle on the legal front, because a lot of customers as well are looking for resources to be able to set up different trusts, or if they're looking to benefit from different tax strategies, you have to set up either different businesses or being able to make sure that you are meeting your goals through those different tax planning strategies.
• 47:56
  And then we also have Abundant Minds with Beau. And what we do with him is being able to leverage the tax strategies as well for anybody that is looking at the depreciation that comes with being able to purchase Bitcoin miners.
• 48:12
  yeah it's been fun we've had a lot of fun with it and the the feedback from clients
• 48:19
  uh has been great so far so uh i've been very encouraged by that why your email list was was
• 48:27
  popping off i think a week or two ago right so yeah yeah no it was great you know we did a
• 48:33
  you know bitcoin well lunch and learn uh geez it feels like two years ago but i guess it was two
• 48:41
  weeks ago, two years ago at this point in time, uh, which was awesome.
• 48:48
  And yeah, we've been, uh, it has been a ton of fun and it's a great group to work with.
• 48:51
  And, you know, Chantel, you've been amazing and the Bitcoin wild team and support resources
• 48:56
  have been tremendous too.
• 48:58
  And that was so beautifully said.
• 48:59
  I was just thinking while you were saying that, you know, if I was going to like rank
• 49:03
  members of the team that can like elegantly talk about BFOG, I think it's you number one,
• 49:09
  me number two, Bo number three, Kyle number four, Jordan number five. Yeah.
• 49:16
  I would agree. I would verify that. So yeah, absolutely. Hey, I'm just a tax guy. You know,
• 49:25
  I stay in my corner, not, not that well-spoken. And I, I just, I just do, I help people save on
• 49:31
  taxes. I mean, it's a humble servant. It's an important role to play and we need you and our
• 49:37
  clients need you, Jordan. Yes. But no, it's been so amazing building this with you guys. And
• 49:44
  the way that it started, I mean, I was out for dinner with Jordan and painting this picture and
• 49:50
  this problem that I was having with, hey, our customers need these ancillary services that
• 49:56
  our executive Bitcoin advisors are not licensed to do, but they're coming to us and they're saying,
• 50:03
  you know what my financial advisor is literally telling me to liquidate or I asked my um my
• 50:09
  accountant about tax loss harvesting and they said that this is not beneficial to me or I need to set
• 50:14
  up an estate but they don't know what um private keys are and they don't know how to pass that on
• 50:20
  and so Jordan was like I think that you need to meet Wyatt and I think that we are not meet but
• 50:25
  I think you need to talk to Wyatt and we need to start sort of building this together and so
• 50:30
  when you sent over that pitch deck, I was like, this is exactly what I've been envisioning. And so
• 50:35
  it's been amazing to be able to start to bring this to life.
• 50:39
  Yeah. Totally. Well, no, what I think is just, you know, being lost in general that I think,
• 50:47
  you know, all five of us do really well, which I think, you know, is part of the reasons why we make
• 50:51
  a good team together, you know, just with like, this really kind of started probably, you know,
• 50:57
  five, 10 years ago with like software getting more prolificated. But now with AI, it's just like
• 51:02
  the experience you can have using any given software program or even service providers
• 51:08
  nowadays can feel so impersonal and canned and yucky. But we all make like the extra effort,
• 51:18
  I would say, to offer like these boutique white glove services. And, you know, I think, you know,
• 51:22
  Bitcoin Wall Infinite has been like a really good opportunity for us to learn how like that service is provided and how to have, you know, high touch client experiences.
• 51:34
  And ultimately, that's, I think, something we saw very well is like that's all that's what people are looking for.
• 51:39
  They want somebody to call, you know, that's like a comforting feeling, especially, you know, when things go south, like what we just experienced.
• 51:47
  Like that's a tremendous value add.
• 51:49
  And so that been great working with Bitcoin Well and seeing that firsthand and your executive advisors Chantel and how they handle clients And I think specifically from the Bitcoin Well client list we probably gotten most of our referrals are at least sizable So clearly that I think foundation you guys have
• 52:14
  established, they're seeking that in other service providers. And so I think that's been kind of a
• 52:19
  cool little bridge thing to point out. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe Chantel, let's go a little bit deeper just
• 52:28
  so that if an advisor is listening in and they do have clients that are looking to allocate some of
• 52:34
  their portfolio into Bitcoin, maybe they want to escape just the fiat world or the bonds or whatever
• 52:41
  it might be. Talk to us more about what they can expect for their experience as an advisor,
• 52:50
  as well as their client's experience, whether they're looking to buy Bitcoin or maybe they've
• 52:55
  saved up Bitcoin and now they're needing to buy a house and they need to liquidate that Bitcoin.
• 53:01
  Yeah. What does that experience look like for them? Absolutely. So first off, some background
• 53:06
  on our company itself. So Bitcoin, well, we've been around since 2013 and we are a publicly
• 53:12
  traded company. And so we started off as a Bitcoin ATM company, migrated to have a portal in Canada.
• 53:21
  And then now we've expanded to have our Bitcoin Well Infinite division that operates globally.
• 53:27
  The reason why we created the Bitcoin Well Infinite division is because advisors and people that are in the higher net worth aspect, they didn't want to go and log into a portal and to be able to do things all on their own.
• 53:41
  They wanted somebody that was high touch, that understood the Bitcoin market and that they had a personal relationship with where they could pick up the phone anytime they had a question and to be able to just talk through it.
• 53:55
  So what it looks like when you're coming in and working with Bitcoin All Infinite is so the first meeting always starts off with a video call.
• 54:03
  We want to have a face to face relationship in that video call.
• 54:07
  We're getting a really good understanding of your level of knowledge with Bitcoin.
• 54:11
  If we need to get you set up with a properly secured self-custody setup, we'll also have a separate meeting doing that as well.
• 54:20
  And then we take you through the onboarding process, which is all done within a single day.
• 54:25
  From the onboarding process, then we manage all of your transactions for you.
• 54:30
  And the best thing about that is that all you have to do is to send in a wire transfer to the dedicated account that we provide you with.
• 54:39
  And then our team is going and actually buying and sending the test transactions, making sure that you're receiving the amount before we send a large amount on chain.
• 54:49
  And at that point in time, the relationship really doesn't stop.
• 54:52
  Like I said, anytime that you have any questions, specifically like with the scenario that's happening right now, our advisors have been working around the clock, just answering calls.
• 55:02
  One of them jokes that they're having a therapy week and that they're putting on their therapist hat and just talking people off a ledge. But when you're dealing with extreme sums of Bitcoin, again, you just you want somebody that is in your corner, just like you guys are in your corners for your clients.
• 55:20
  Yeah, totally.
• 55:22
  Well, and I can personally attest of just having a client, you know, utilizing Bitcoin
• 55:29
  well and the infinite program to purchase, you know, large some of Bitcoin.
• 55:33
  And we worked with Q, shout out Q.
• 55:34
  And, you know, the two of us, you know, as professionals in the Bitcoin industry working
• 55:39
  with them, you know, they're newer to Bitcoin.
• 55:42
  This is by far, you know, the largest Bitcoin transaction they've made.
• 55:45
  You know, she later told me it gave her a ton of confidence, having a team on her side,
• 55:52
  willing to communicate with her, help her through, you know, different questions and
• 55:55
  anything.
• 55:56
  And so, you know, I even like to be upfront with, you know, different service providers
• 55:59
  or partners I work with.
• 56:00
  Like, look, like I own like the client communication.
• 56:03
  I own like the client relationship and I'm looking for people to like work with me in
• 56:07
  that aspect.
• 56:08
  And, you know, Q is like an amazing, you know, partner and sidekick through like that whole
• 56:12
  thing.
• 56:13
  And that's something I just like really value and, and appreciate what, you know, partners
• 56:17
  that, you know, understand that dynamic and are willing to, you know, kind of, you know,
• 56:21
  mold to it.
• 56:24
  Yeah.
• 56:24
  Amazing.
• 56:25
  Thank you for that feedback.
• 56:26
  And I'll definitely pass that on to Q.
• 56:28
  He's been a great addition to the team as well.
• 56:31
  Yeah.
• 56:32
  Yeah.
• 56:32
  If it was anybody else, I would say you should, but, you know, Mike goes straight to his head.
• 56:36
  So I'm not sure.
• 56:37
  Yeah. And people, you know, people forget, I think, very quickly about, you know, probably the last big blow up before this was FTX.
• 56:51
  And we should make it really clear that none of these situations ever had anything to do with the actual Bitcoin tech itself.
• 57:01
  Right. The FTX blow up was a company doing shady things.
• 57:06
  And we'll see what happens with this cold card blow up.
• 57:11
  But it definitely was a company that made a mistake not anything to do with the base code for Bitcoin But maybe we should go back in time and that can be where we kind of wrap Remind people
• 57:26
  Chantel, of the FTX debacle. And if they're not thinking through the custodian that they might be
• 57:35
  trusting, what might happen in a scenario where they thought they knew this company really well
• 57:41
  And they weren't even able to verify because all those code bases are closed sourced. And so they're putting all their trust in whatever custodian. I guess just a good reminder for people would be great from you.
• 57:56
  Yeah, absolutely. So it is extremely painful that this happens specifically as a result of a mistake. But going back to what we were talking about before, the reason why that this is not a reason to move back to an exchange or to move to an ETF is because of the fact that we don't know what they're doing in their business practices.
• 58:19
  What happened with FTX, what happened with Mt. Gox, what happened with Quadriga was essentially somebody mismanaged in all of those situations, basically somebody mismanaging funds and customers not being able to withdraw their coins or to withdraw their funds in general once a company either went bankrupt or the company owner disappeared.
• 58:44
  When somebody else is managing your keys, there are extreme risks and when the company goes under, all of the wealth is gone and it's not, say, a single device that might be impacted.
• 59:00
  Um, one of the benefits, it's tough to say, but one of the things that I've been thinking
• 59:07
  about in this situation is that because it happened to a manufacturer of a device and
• 59:15
  it wasn't an FTX level collapse where the entire company was gone and the entire company
• 59:20
  was utilizing client funds and that wasn't able to be withdrawn, people had time to act
• 59:26
  and people still had time to save themselves.
• 59:30
  If it was a massive company, say if it's a Coinbase now going forward, if Coinbase goes bankrupt
• 59:36
  or they mismanaged funds or if Coinbase gets hacked, all of those funds are gone and you're
• 59:43
  not going to have any time to react. What you're going to have to deal with is probably their
• 59:47
  bankruptcy proceedings and then that can end up taking years to settle and typically when it does
• 59:53
  settle, you're only being paid a fraction of what was actually there or you're being paid
• 59:58
  at the price of Bitcoin today instead of the price of Bitcoin in 10 years.
• 1:00:03
  So remember, leaving your keys with a custodian just amplifies the risk or it passes on different
• 1:00:10
  risks, but it doesn't allow you to actually be able to act in a scenario like this.
• 1:00:18
  Yeah, I was just trying to think back. Does anyone remember the name of that company that
• 1:00:24
  It was kind of like acorns, but it was for Bitcoin.
• 1:00:27
  Does anyone remember?
• 1:00:28
  Either of you all remember what I'm talking about?
• 1:00:29
  Are you spend money on a credit card and they would pay?
• 1:00:32
  It would pay you back in Bitcoin a percentage.
• 1:00:36
  I mean, it's leaving me.
• 1:00:37
  But all that to say, I had like 700,000 sats, which is not a lot because I hadn't withdrawn it.
• 1:00:45
  And that company went under.
• 1:00:47
  And I am still in the I've never received funds back.
• 1:00:52
  Now, thankfully, it's not that many sats.
• 1:00:54
  in the grand scheme of things. But to your point, Chantel, like if something, if a company goes
• 1:00:59
  belly up, you're just, you're on these like court proceeding calls, and they send you an email every
• 1:01:05
  six months. It's like, here's where we're at. We're trying to get the funds back, but who knows.
• 1:01:11
  And so I just think in this time of people trying to figure out what to do next,
• 1:01:16
  just have a long and clear memory of what has happened in the past. And you can move to an
• 1:01:24
  exchange for a moment to catch your breath and get everything set up, decide what you want to do.
• 1:01:29
  But then you should very quickly consider, strongly consider going back to self-custody
• 1:01:36
  because you do not want to be in that situation. Because if it's a big amount of Bitcoin, then it's
• 1:01:41
  a much bigger deal. So, all right, cool. Why? Any other questions from you, sir?
• 1:01:49
  Thank you for asking, but no, I don't have any. I think this was great. I really appreciate you
• 1:01:56
  sharing your boots on the ground experience, Chantel, your wisdom from being in the industry
• 1:02:00
  for so long and some of the unique insights and perspective you guys have as a non-custodial
• 1:02:05
  exchange. I think this was an awesome podcast.
• 1:02:10
  Yeah. Thank you guys so much for having me.
• 1:02:12
  It's always great talking to you both.
• 1:02:15
  Yeah. And if an advisor or high net worth individual wants to get in contact
• 1:02:20
  with Bitcoin well to do business with you all, where's a good place they can head to?
• 1:02:25
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:02:26
  The best place to go to book a meeting with us is to go to Bitcoin well.
• 1:02:29
  dot com slash infinite. You'll have the ability to connect with our team and we'll always start
• 1:02:36
  off with a video call with you so that we can listen to where you're at, get to know exactly
• 1:02:42
  how we can help you and make sure that we cater our experience over to you. And one of the things
• 1:02:47
  that we're offering right now is that even if you're not looking to move forward with buying or
• 1:02:53
  selling a larger amount of Bitcoin right now, if you just need help navigating this situation,
• 1:02:58
  making sure that your custody setup or your self-custody setup is secure.
• 1:03:02
  If you're evaluating going back to an exchange versus managing your own keys,
• 1:03:07
  we're here to talk. Like I mentioned,
• 1:03:10
  our advisors have their therapist hat on therapist hats on right now,
• 1:03:15
  and they're just here to listen and to give you all of the information that we
• 1:03:19
  have to make sure that you feel safe and secure with your next steps.
• 1:03:25
  That's awesome. And I would just end,
• 1:03:28
  By saying if you're looking to hang out, Chantal, we'll see you at the Midwest Bitcoin Summit and the Bitcoin Financial Services Happy Hour.
• 1:03:36
  And then, of course, the Bitcoin Financial Services Summit in Denver coming up here soon.
• 1:03:42
  Yes absolutely Looking forward to seeing you there Awesome Thanks Chantal Appreciate it Thank you Thanks Chantal All right
• 1:03:54
  We appreciate you joining us. If you want help with the future of Bitcoin and financial services,
• 1:03:58
  hit subscribe, leave a review, sign up for a newsletter, and share this with someone in your
• 1:04:02
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• 1:04:07
  understand how Bitcoin is changing wealth management, lending, custody, retirement
• 1:04:12
  planning, and capital formation, you need to be at the Bitcoin Financial Services Summit
• 1:04:16
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• 1:04:20
  smartest operators in the industry for practical conversations focused on what's actually working
• 1:04:25
  today. Register now at bffs.media. The more professionals we reach, the stronger this ecosystem
• 1:04:33
  to come and our clients are better served. Stay sharp, stay sovereign, keep lean from the front.
• 1:05:03
  Thank you.