Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / Exposing psychological myths and identifying strategies that really work, with Clinical Psychologist, with Dr. Nick Wignall

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Exposing psychological myths and identifying strategies that really work, with Clinical Psychologist, with Dr. Nick Wignall · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Nick Wignoll, Welcome to the podcast.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: You are the first.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: Individual from Albuquerque, New Mexico, and that's so New Mexico
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: south southwest.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: We're kind of sandwiched in between Texas and Arizona.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been around that area.
• 0:34
  Speaker 4: G thirty years ago, I was traveling and working in
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: the States and we had an RV and.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Went all the way round that.
• 0:41
  Speaker 4: Man, just this scenery is unbelievable, isn't it wild?
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it can be so diverse, it can change
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: so quickly. You know, you're you think you're in the desert,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: and all of a sudden you're up in the mountains
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: and there's aspen trees.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, it's pretty fantastic stuff.
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: So, mate, you are a clinical psychologist by back, I'm true,
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: but also the founder of loom, where you do high
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: performance stuff for businesses, for leadership teams and that sort
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: of thing. But today we are we're going to poke
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: the burr a little bit, right because I've had quite
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: a few clinical psychologists on all talking about the positive stuff.
• 1:20
  Speaker 4: And you've got a really cool newsletter and you take
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: a different slant on things and So first of all,
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: let's talk about emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is everywhere, right,
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: and people talking about how we need to increase our
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: EQ and all of that, and there's businesses that do
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: EQ training, and now you have a bit of an
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: approach that it's a bit overrated, so they can tell
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: us what you mean by that.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Let's dive into that.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, part of it is maybe I'm just sick of
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: seeing it everywhere and hearing everyone talk about it and
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: kind of what I would consider slightly sloppy terms, like
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: it's kind of vague in general what people meeting by
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: EQ or by emotional intelligence. So I think what And
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: the first thing I'll say is like, overrated doesn't mean important, right,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: And that's really is. It is important, But I think
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: the question is important relative to what else because we
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: all have limited time and energy to put into things
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: and to focus on things, especially to try and work
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: on ourselves and improve ourselves and our teams. Right, we
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: have limited amounts of energy and time and resources, so
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: that this really matters. And the place I like to
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: start is very few people outside of academics actually care
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: about emotional intelligence itself as an outcome. They want the
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: things that come from emotional intelligence. Ostensibly, they want better relationships.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: They want more intimacy or trust in their relationships at
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: home or at work. Right, they want to they want
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: to be more resilient in the face of big, difficult
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: emotions they get super angry, they don't want to lose
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: it and get really defensive in a conversation, or they
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: don't want to get lost in spirals of worry and anxiety.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: So I think this is where I usually start with
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: emotional intelligence, is most people what they want is emotional resilience.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: We want to be able to experience big emotions because
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: that's inevitable. Like we're especially if we're doing ambitious, difficult things,
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: We're going to have difficult emotions like fear and anxiety
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: or anger or regret, all that kind of stuff. But
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: we don't want to get knocked over by it, right,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, emotional resilience is kind of the
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: big overarching category. Emotional intelligence is an important component in that,
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: but it's not the only component. The other, really biggest
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: component is what I call emotional fitness, and those two
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: things together like that I think lead us to be resilience.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: So emotional intelligence in my opinion. It's what you know
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: intellectually about your emotions and how to work with them
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: and work them well. So an example I always like
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: to give is like, worry is different than anxiety. A
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: worry is a type of thinking and it's something you
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: largely have control over. Anxiety is an emotion you can't.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: There's no switch for like turning down anxiety. So if
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: you struggle with anxiety, the trick is actually to focus
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: on the habit that's perpetuating it, which is worry. But
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: a lot of people have never even heard of that distinction.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: So that's an instance of understanding something about how our
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: emotions work. But if you think about it, in any
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: skill in life, whether it's you know, learning to play
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: the piano or running marathons or negotiating or whatever, any
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: kind of skill, insight or learning book learning is important,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: but it's far far from sufficient. So if you wanted
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: to play the guitar, and you said, great, I read
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: this great book on guitar, but like, how come I
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: can't play the guitar anymore? Well, if you expect that
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: reading a book on guitar is going to make you
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: a good guitar player, like you're out to lunch. But weirdly,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: when it comes to emotional health and resilience, we think, oh,
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: if I just heard this great idea, I was listening
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: to this podcast, or I read this great self help book,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: that should be enough, Right, Not at all. That's the
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: very first step, most of the effect. If you really
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: want to be have kind of emotional strength and be
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: resilient in difficult situations, that's a muscle, right, and you've
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: got to exercise that muscle. You got to develop it,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: you got to practice. That's the emotional fitness part. So
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: the reason I say emotional intelligence is overrated is to
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: kind of, you know, provoke people a little bit into
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: realizing you're putting all your time into trying to understand
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: stuff intellectually at the expense of actually practicing, putting in
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: the reps to do the work that's going to actually
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: lead to that resilience in the long.
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: I really like the term emotional fitness for a couple
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: of reasons. I often talk about stress fitness and talk
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: about the analogy with physical fitness, right, and I think
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: we can do the same with emotional fitness. Is that
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: there's a continuum, right, It's not just an on or
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: an off it is a continuum. There are low fit people,
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: there are medium fit people, and there are high fit people.
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: And then you ask anybody a massive audience, what is
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: the thing that distinguishes high fit physically fit people from
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: low physically fit people, And they will all tell you
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: it is that they do the work, and they do
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: the work consistently, right, And I think it's the same
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: with stress fitness. And what I'm hearing from you is
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: it's the same with emotional fitness.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: It's not just something that's a gift. Yes, there's a
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: little bit of genetics involved in all of this stuff, right,
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: but a lot of it is about doing the work.
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: And if you want to be high fit, you have
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: to constantly do the work. And if you stop at
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: any point doing the work, you're going to go down
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: and continuum, whereas if you just sit there and do nothing,
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: you're obviously going to be low fitness.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Really yeah, and you know, I think that's exactly right.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: But I get a little frustrated with my own field
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: of clinical psychology and counseling and therapy because I think
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: we perpetuate this myth that like, well, you can just
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: come in and like talk about your stuff or like
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: read stuff and somehow proof magically that'll make everything better.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with therapy. Like I was a therapist
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: for a long time. I think I think it could
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: be really powerful. But it's just it's just the first step, right,
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: It's what are you doing in between your weekly sessions
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: every single day to get better, to get more resilient
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: at dealing with anxiety or you know, figuring out how
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: to understand and work through your tendency toward depression or
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: that's just that one hour in a day, one hour
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: week when you're talking to me. That's great, but that's
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: that's just the tip of the iceberg. Most of the
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: effects is going to happen in between. It's all those
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: practice sessions you are or aren't doing in the meantime.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, And and there are a lot of people, I
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: think who go to talk therapies just so that they
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: can unload and be heard, and then they walk out
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: and they do nothing, and they expect a different outcome.
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: I'm I'm not such a big fan of talk therapies
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: that that don't have an action associated with.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Them, you know.
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: And I'm I'm poking the bar a little bit when
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: it comes to psychology on.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: This, what what's your what is your view on that?
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: You know, people, I think that that there's a little
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: bit of a risk that in Western psychology we have
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: become too much about may may may may me and
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: who's doing what to me?
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: And woe is me?
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: And that can be sometimes reinforced if there's no self
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: reflection and action, particularly what's your thoughts around.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: I think it's a huge risk that almost nobody talks
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: about with psychotherapy or counseling, or coaching or or a
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: lot of these self development programs, is they can unintentionally
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone is deliberately doing this, but they
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: can unintentionally reinforce patterns of dependence and sort of low agency.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: So you go in in part because you know the
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: we we approach something like therapy like we approach medicine,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: which is where right or wrong. I think there's a
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: good indication, not a very helpful way anything about physical
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: health either. But we think like something hurts, so I'm
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: gonna go and im and talk to doctor. They're gonna
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: figure out what's wrong. They're gonna be a bunch of tests.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know what's happening they're just gonna like test me.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Then they're gonna give you, give me a pill, maybe
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: maybe put me under and do some surgery, and then
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: like poof, I'm gonna be better. And we expect that
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: the same thing that that's how you know emotional health
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: should work too. I'm depressed or I'm anxious, I'm gonna
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: go in some super smart therapist is going to like
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: analyze what's wrong, and then we're gonna talk about things
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: dot dot dot and then somehow everything's gonna be better
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: and it just does. And again, talking can be helpful, right,
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: and there are a lot of very smart, insightful therapists.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: But if your model is that I'm just gonna go in,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: I'm going to kind of vent or talk about things
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: and then I don't know, somehow like everything's gonna get better,
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Like it's just it does it. I've never seen it
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: work that way. It always requires a substantial amount of work,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: like not maybe not literally sweating sometimes sweating, but like
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: real work on the part of the person who wants
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: to grow and improve and get better. And it's just
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: we don't do people any favors reinforcing this model that
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: you can just come in and like chat for sixty
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: minutes every week and like then you'll get better.
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think that every not in every therapy session,
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: but every school should be teaching kids life is hard.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: You know. Life is not easy.
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: It was never supposed to be easy. And anybody who's
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: told you that life is easy and you deserve to
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: be happy has sorry, but they've lied to you. Life
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: has always been hard and always will be hard, and
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: in different ways. And it's like when we try to
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: make life not hard, that's when I think we get
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: in when we get into trouble, when we try to
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: get rid of negative emotions and negative excs experiences and go,
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: this is uncomfortable, so I just want to get rid
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: of it. And I don't think that's the right answer.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I used to see this and I
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: still see it so often. This this counterintuitive problem where
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: again I think it's because we have this medical model
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: where when we're suffering emotionally, we equate pain or suffering
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: with pathology, like that something's broken or wrong because I'm
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: in pain.
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: And we've been fed that though as well by largely
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: by the pharmaceutical industry, that you know, this is something
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: that can just be fixed.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's all. I think there's a lot
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: to it, and I think there's a spectrum of nefariousness here.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of medical providers and mental health
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: providers are against super well intentioned and trying to do
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: the right thing by their clients. But the idea, if
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: you think, if you really stop and think about it,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: the idea that it that if I'm feeling anxious, there
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: is something wrong with me, something broken inside of me
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: that needs to be fixed. This is help you go
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: into a lot of therapy or self help books or
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: whatever it is. The problem is, even though it feels
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: like that, we all know that while pain is sometimes
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: an indicator of a problem something's wrong, it's very often
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: not that at all. In many cases, pain is a
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: sign of growth. When your muscle's hurt after a new workout,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: that's literally because your muscles are growing, right, So I
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: think to assume that pain means something is literally broken
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: or wrong is really it's tempting, but it's so detrimental
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: because here's what happens. There's this process that's a little nerdy,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: but I'll explain it because I think I think it
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: really matters. There's this process called emotional fear learning.
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: No.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Emotional fear learning is when there's a part of your
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: brain the amigdala, primarily which it's responsible for threats, for
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: tracking and helping you deal with threats. So if you're
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: walking around you see a bear jump out in front
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: of you, it's the thing that's going to shoot you
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: into fight or flight modes that you can run get
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: out of there. It's really helpful if you're encountering a
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: true threat to your something literally dangerous. But the wild
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: thing about the amignal is, depending on your behavior, you
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: can train it to believe that anything is dangerous. And
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: here's this idea of emotional fear learning. If in response
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: to a difficult emotion like anxiety or shame or sadness
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: or or fear or anything like this, if you immediately
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: either try to run away and avoid it or get
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: rid of it, that's teaching your brain that this thing,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: your own emotions are dangerous, are threats, so that even
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: if you feel a little bit better in the short term,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: you're gonna feel worse long term because the next time
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: that emotion comes up, you're not just gonna be anxious,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: You're gonna be anxious about being anxious, and when your
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: emotions come pound like this, they get way bigger and
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: way harder to deal with. So so much well intentioned
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: mental health advice I think is actually completely counterproductive. Like
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: a great example of this is coping skills. You hear
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: about this all the time, like, oh, you need more
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: coping skills. You gotta like fill out your tool belt
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: of coping skills so that when you get anxious, you
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: just like whip out a little exercise and cope with
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: your anxiety. No, this is a terrible, terrible idea, because
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: even if you get a little bit of relief in
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: the short term by coping with your anxiety, what your
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: brain is learning is that anxiety is dangerous, it's bad.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: You're essentially trying to get rid of it. So again,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: you're going to be even more on the lookout. Your
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: brain's going to be even more sensitive to anxiety, and
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: you're going to feel anxious about being anxious increasingly. This
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: is where people get into real problems with their emotional health.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: They get self critical about being sad. That's what leads
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: to depression, right or can anyway. They get anxious about
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: being anxious, that's what leads to panic attacks, but feeling sad,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: feeling anxious, feeling angry, feeling feeling guilty. These are all
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: incredibly normal human experiences, which, however painful, aren't. They're natural,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: they're normal, They're not a sign that something is wrong.
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: So sorry, it's no note. I love it and I'm
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: completely aligned with and in a couple of comments just
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: just on that. One is that we know that when
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: people are just like you described, what they can actually
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: do or what happens over time is there amigdala can
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: actually enlarge and become more sensitive. And we see that
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: with people who are either chronically stressed or or and
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: stress could.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Be real or imaginary.
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: Right, And as you say, when you get worried about
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: being worried the amygdala in functional MRI studies, when they
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: follow people, the amygdala grows bigger. That means they become
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: hyper vigilant, doesn't it.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: So the brilling is.
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: Then non consciously scanning the environment for bad shit. And
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: you can find that these days you just need to
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: turn on the bloody news and then you linger on
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: that longer than other people, and then it compounds, which
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: is when we think about it is in a dative
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: response if you're a key of man being in a
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: dangerous warst right, but now it's maladaptive.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, it's it's But again, I think the key
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: idea here is that even in that case where you
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: have habitually trained your amigola to be hyper sensitive and
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: hypervigilant to things, it's your brain is still trying to
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: do the right thing. It's still trying to help you.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Your brain is always trying to help you. Yeah, but
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: if you treat it like an enemy, it's going to
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: increasingly start to feel like an enemy. That's the problem.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Like that.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: It's so I think so many of us, unintentionally and
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: on the bad advice of supposed professionals, we get more
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: and more stuck and overwhelmed by difficult emotions because we're
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: constantly trying to either run away from them or get
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: rid of them cope with them, right, which unintentionally just
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: makes it harder and harder in the long run.
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: So, so, what is a more productive strategy then, for
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: if somebody is listening to this and going, oh, this
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: stage just nailed me either currently are are in the past,
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: But what is a more productive adaptive strategy? I mean,
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: we know with anxiety exposure therapy created exposure is one
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: of the key things, and it's it's the same as
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: the principle with exercise training. You know, you need to
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: progressively overload the system in order to stimulate adaptation. So
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: what would your advice be to someone who's kind of
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: stuck in that loop of wanting to get away from
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: their emotions or make them disappear or cope with them.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the first thing I would just say
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: is like, as unproductive as that can end up being
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: if you end up backing on it, as we've been
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: talking about it, it's very natural, So like, give yourself.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Don't immediately go to start criticizing yourself now because you're
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: doing this, it's very instinctive to want to avoid pain,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: and just getting critical with yourself about that is not
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: gonna help. That's just gonna make things worse. So be careful.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: That's the worst thing I'll say. Yeah, in gen I mean,
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: emotional resilience is a huge kind of topic. There's a
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: lot of ways we could go here. I'll share with
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: you one small but really powerful technique that I teach
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: people in my work, especially I I have a whole
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: course on emotional resilience called mood mastery, and the kind
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: of the cornerstone practice in that in that program is
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: something I'll call the AVA method. AVA like a v A.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: It's a it's a memory device, but it stands for
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: these like three little simple steps that you can apply
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: in any emotionally difficult situation. These will be you can
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: guarantee these will be teaching your brain the right thing,
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: not the wrong thing. And so I'll walk you through
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: really quick. AVA stands for a acknowledge, So just very
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: briefly label how you're feeling. I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling sad,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling you know, mad. And the key here though,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: is don't intellectualize we adults. When was the last time
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: you hear an adult say I'm sad? It sounds childish, right,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: It sounds like the kind of thing a six year
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: old would say. But the reason we do that is
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: it's a subtle avoidance strategy. Saying oh, I'm so overwhelmed
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: doesn't feel quite as bad as saying I feel really
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: sad right now, that's prickler. It's more emotionally evocative. So
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: we get in the habit of using vague overly intellectual
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: language to describe how we feel. Knock it off, Like,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: that's the first step. Use very simple words. I tell
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: my students, say it like a six year old when
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: you're struggling, right, how would a little kid described this feeling.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: So that's the first one. Just acknowledge your emotions. And
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: this is really fast. This is like five seconds. I
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: feel sad and a little bit frustrated right now.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: And it's been shown neck.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: I think to reduce the emotional intensity whenever you name
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: it right, name it to tamate. I've heard other people
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: talk about it does.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: But this next step is like intensity reduction on steroids.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: It's this is the one that really will help you
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: alleviate some of that intensity. The V stands for validate
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: and validate means once you've acknowledged, okay, I'm feeling anxious,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: validate means it's valid It's okay to feel whatever I'm feeling.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Just because it feels bad doesn't mean it is bad
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: or that I'm bad for feeling. So I don't like
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: feeling anxious right. In fact, it's a pain in the ass.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: I really wish I wasn't feeling anxious. But it's not
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: surprising that I'm feeling anxious given what just happened to me,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: or it's not surprising that I'm angry given that what happened.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: A lot of people would be angry in this situation.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: It's valid, it's okay. It's what you would say if
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: a good friend came to you and they were really sad.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: You'd say, I'm really sorry to hear that, like, you know,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I've been there before, and it's really tough, like I understand,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: but it's okay, you know. So it's just being that
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: same level of supportive with yourself instead of being critical
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: with yourself. Oh I shouldn't feel this way, or what
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: do I need to do to make myself not feel
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: this way? No, you're going to validate it. It's valid.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: You might not like it, it might be painful as hell, right,
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: but it's valid. It okay to feel that way. And again,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: this step, you're not having a therapy session with yourself.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: This is not sixty minutes or like journaling for half
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: an hour. This is ten seconds. You're saying, Okay, I'm
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: feeling really anxious right now. As much as I don't
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: like feeling anxious, it's okay that I'm feeling this way. Okay,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: So that's that's step two, and then the third step,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: arguably the most important step is the second a, which
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: is on your values. So many people, especially especially in
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: like modern therapy culture, we are a little bit too
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: obsessed with our emotions. Fifty years ago, we were probably
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: too avoidant with our emotions. We just didn't even talk
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: about emotions at all. Right, that's obviously not helpful. I
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: would argue we've swung a little too far to the
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: other extreme, where we've got kind of obsessive about our emotions.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: We get stuck in them. We think, we overanalyze them,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: we talk about them too much. I think a lot
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a great because.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: And what's key is the reason that's problematic is to
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: your brain, it looks like like a fight response, like
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: you're trying to get rid of this thing, this emotion,
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: and that's just as unhelpful as the avoidant one. The
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: healthy middle ground is to acknowledging it, accept it, and
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: just let it be there. It's okay, I'm anxious. I
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: don't have to do anything about being anxious. My brain
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: is just trying to help me. Maybe it's a little
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: bit confused. It thinks there's something dangerous, when really there
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: is anything dangerous, but it's just trying to help me.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: And I'm not going to stay stuck in this emotion.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to keep ruminating about it or venting
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: about it to other people. I'm going to get on
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: with my life despite feeling this emotion. I'm going to
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: act on my values. What's meaningful or important to me
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: right now. I'm not going to act on the emotion.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: This is not coping skills. I'm going to act on
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: my values. And when your brain sees that you are
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: willing to get on with your life despite feeling anxious
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: or sad or angry or whatever it is, it downregulates.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: It stops getting so emotionally worked up every time you
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: feel an emotion, and your level of emotional equanimity will
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: just be It'll be so profound once you start doing
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: this regularly. So that's the third step. Acknowledge, validate, and
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: then put on your values. Allow the emotion to be there,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: and get on with your life. Refocus on that the
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: other person you're having a conversation with. Start writing that
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: report you know you're nervous about writing. Go to the
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: gym instead of overthinking about whether you should I shouldn't
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: you know what to get on with things. So that's
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: my I said, it's going to be brief as usual,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: like over talked a little bit on this, but eva
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: aba acknowledge, validate, and then move on, act on your values.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Let the emotion just be there. So that to answer you.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: That's a long winded way of answering your question all about.
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: Like, but it's a great it's a great answer, and
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: I particularly like I like all components of it, but
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: that it is directed towards acting and linking it to
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: values right, which is straight out of acceptance commitments that
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: are taking.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: It towards move rather than away, which is hugely important.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: So you know, let's make it real.
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: Let's just say I have anxiety and and you have
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: a birthday party coming up. But you know fortis birthday,
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: whatever it may be, is a big birthday. You invite
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: me to the party. My brain all of a sudden
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: is going no frequent way, no way can I go
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: to this party. You know, everybody's going to be looking
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: at me. What am I going to do with my hands?
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: People are going to be talking about me, what am
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: I going to work? All this shit goes on, and
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: then often people do avoidance behaviors, right, they don't go
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: to the party. They make up some bullshit excuse, Whereas
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: what you're talking about is you acknowledge it, you validate it.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: It's okay to freelanxis, and particularly because I've got a
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: bit of social anxiety. But actually a value of mine
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: is friendship, and Nick is a very good friend of mine.
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: So I'm going to take my anxiety with me to
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: the party in the service of something bigger. It's not
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: that you're getting rid of the anxiety, you take it
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: with you, right bing.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's so right on, And I love that, like
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: bringing friendship in. You know, psychologically, why this isn't. One
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: of the reasons this is so important is that our
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: values are a huge, largely untapped source of motivation that
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: we almost never think about. We all have values. There's
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: a reason you initially wanted to come to my birthday party, Paul,
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: or whatever the whatever this year. You wanted to go
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: to the gym, you wanted to do that podcast, you
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: wanted to write that book, you want to do whatever
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: it is. Tap into that value when you remind yourself
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: of that value and make it clear and kind of
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: just spend a little time thinking about it. There's so
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: much motivation there to help you overcome that whatever difficult
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: emotion is getting in your way. Not that the emotion's bad,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: it's just your brain giving you some advice and maybe
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: it's not especially helpful advice, so you're not obligated to
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: listen if you decide, you know what, Thanks brain, I
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: appreciate your input, but I've really decided it's important for
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: me to go to this, to go to this birthday party,
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: and so I'm going to do it anyway, right, So
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: I love your example there.
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: And this value I actually want to really dive into
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: the value stylence. And you know, because I think and
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: I've been thinking about this a lot, and the kind
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: of loss of religion in the West. Now I'm not
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: religious at all. I'm a recovering Catholic from Northern Ireland.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: I've been in recovery for thirty years.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: But I a lot.
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: This is not my original thinking. Lots of other people
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: will say this, that the breakdown of religion has has
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: had an issue, not because of the lack of religiosity
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: or whatever, but because.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: You look at all religions is they give people values
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: to live by, and people.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: Will then live by those shared values and they don't
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: have to think about it too much, whereas not when
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: there's a lot less religion, people then have to think about.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Their own values and what they actually are.
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: And when I run workshops, and I would imagine that
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: values come into your workshops when you're when you're doing
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: stuff in corporates. When I'm talking about it, lots of
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: people are.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Like, oh, even about what my values are?
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Right, But they are.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: A compassed by which you should be living your life.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: Right, It's hugely important. And and just one other comment
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: of me before I throw back to you, and you know,
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: talking about values and habits and behaviors, and so for me,
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: I'm I'm arismx military. I've had an unhealthy relationship with
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: alcohol for for for.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Many years, not not not not.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: A ridiculous piss hit or an alcoholic, but just probably
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: drunk too much. And you know that whole culture of
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: binge drinking. The one thing, and it was probably a
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: couple of years ago that I significantly reduced my alcohol
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: consumption and now I only drink once.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Or twice a week.
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: I'll still give it a nudge if I'm out with
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: friends and I'm no ee injel. But the one thing
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: for me was authenticity, which is a deeply held value
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: of mine. And as somebody who's a corporate speaker and
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: talks about high performance, I'm not being authentic if I'm
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: coming home on a Tuesday night and drinking half a
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: bottler or bottle of wine, right, And so for me,
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: it was tapping into that authenticity.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: And particularly when you're walking.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: Past the bottle shop or I don't know what you
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: guys call them in the States, but you're walking past
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: it and your brain is getting seduced into it, right,
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: that's when values become really important and going yeah, wow,
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: I'd love to do that, but I wouldn't be being authentic.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: So I just want to throw that back to you.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: That's discussion.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: What I like, too, is like, especially when at the
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: end that idea of I think people miss this they
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: think about values, is these things inside of you that
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: you I don't know. You take a test or you
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: listen to someone talk to you, and you kind of
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: like uncover your values and it's like, ooh, interesting, there
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: are values and that's great. If you haven't done that,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: like that's good. Work to do is to start to
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: understand what your values are. But I think what where
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: they get really powerful is when you start deliberately using.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: They're not just these abstract things. You should be using
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: them on a regular bringing them into your life in
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: difficult decisions, when you're trying to follow through on a
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: particular commitment, when you're in a difficult conversation with your
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: spouse or a person at work or whatever. It is
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: like what you Know? Simon Sinek wrote that great book
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: like What's Your Why you Know? And I think a
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: lot of ways values are about that. It's about just
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: this basic thing of reminding yourself there are bigger reasons
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: why I'm trying to do these difficult things in my life,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: these important difficult things. And turns out if you just
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: get better at reminding yourself of those, you have so
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: much more motivation to follow through and do those things
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: that you aspire to do. So it's really low hanging
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: fruit that I think a lot of us are missing,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: not just exploring our values but using them right, bringing
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: them into our lives.
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: One hundred percent got to become part of your behavioral DNA.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: And this goes back and some of my listeners. Can
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: They'll be rolling their eyes here right because I'm going
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: to talk about the stoic philosophers again and arete you
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: know arite that that whole character was really all you
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: needed to be the good life And it was basically
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: acting with integrity and being true to your values or
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: your virtues as they called them in those days, and
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: that was really all that you needed. And it's actually
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: really powerful when you go into a situation and that
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: could end up in a heated argument, but you tap
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: into some of your values or your virtues and actually
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: take the higher grind and then reflect on it later
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: on and go, actually, that was good behavior, Well done
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: me nice.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: I like that little reflection afterwards. It makes me think
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: I was just doing a little workshop on communication, like
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: people who are difficult communication scenarios. And we're talking about boundaries, right,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: So there's a hot topic these days. Everyone wants to
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: know about like setting down yes. And I think boundaries
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: are important. But I think something people misunderstand about boundaries
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: is they think of them very negatively, like it's all
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: about saying no, and then someone violates your boundary and
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: you say no and you yes, yes, and that's part
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: of it. But I think what can be really powerful
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: people if you're trying to set, you know, a boundary,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: maybe with a you know, a manager at work or
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: a relative or whatever it is, your kids, even it's
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: important to remind yourself maybe them too, that the reason
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: you're saying no is for a bigger yes behind it.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: You're not just saying no to be difficult or to
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: be a pain in the ass, right, You're saying no
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: because there's something, There's some bigger important value on the
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: other side. Like why am I saying, you know, well,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: my kid wants to play locks for you know, the
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: third hour in a row on Saturday, and I say no,
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go for a run. I'm not just
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: saying no because I you know, I don't like my
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: kid or something. I'm saying yes to self care, to
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: my health and to taking care of myself.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Right, So I'm not just being saying no to be mean, right,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: I'm saying no because I'm trying to balance many values.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: I won't quality time with my kids, but I also
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: really value my health, like I want to be around
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: for a long time with them. It's the same no
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: to some playtime on Saturday, so that I can say yes,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: right to exercise because health is a really important value
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: for me.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very good point, Very good point. And let's not
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: let's move on to the next topic. That was a
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: rather deep little rabbitovey.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: But that's co so link to all of this stuff.
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: It's kind of intertwined in it. But you have this
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: this concept that stress management is a bad idea, and
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: I think we're going to be following a familiar theme here, right, Yeah,
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: so this.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Is definitely a little poking the bear. It's not just provocative.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: I think there's a deeper truth on your here. But
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: something I see in a lot of my work, whether
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: it was for years when I was doing therapy with
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: folks but now in more of my corporate work or
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: with my students, is managing your stress can often be
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: a distraction from doing more important. Now, what I mean
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: to this is, I think there's this important distinction between
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: stress and a stressor. Right, so if I'm out for
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: a height and again, like a bear jumps out in
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: front of me, the you know, me feeling tense and
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: my heart rate going up, and like that's a stress response.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Stress is what happens to your body physiologically, the stressor
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: is the bear, right, that's the thing triggering or generating
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: the stress in the first place. So it's really what
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: people end up doing, though I think is so problematic
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: is they forget about the stressor and all they're doing
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: is thinking about the stress anytime they get stressed. The
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: question isn't why am I getting stressed in the first place,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: The question is how can I feel less stressed, which,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: again very normal thing to want to feel like I
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: hate feeling stressed, Like I don't want to fel stressed when
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I'm stressed. And I think there are times when literally
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: managing your stress, do some deep breathing exercises or go
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: for a run or like whatever it is, like, that's fine.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: But what I don't like is where we get so
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: consumed with managing our stress that we don't focus at
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: all and do anything about the origins of that stress.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: And where I see this a lot is this usually
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: takes the form of assertive communication. If you're chronically stressed,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: nine times out of ten, it's because there's a difficult
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: conversation you need to have that you're avoiding. It might
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: be with your spouse, it might be with your manager,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: it might be with your kids, it might be with
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: your parent, it might be their best friend, it might
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: be with your barista at Starbucks. I don't know, right,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: but so often the source of our chronic stress is
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: an actual issue or problem out there that we need
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: to address, probably a conversation that we need to have,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: but because it's difficult and uncomfortable addressing the source.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: We end up.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: I like people do this explicitly, but because it's easier, right,
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: we fall back to, well, I'm just going to do
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: some deep breathing as sizes, or I'm gonna have a
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: glass of wine or whatever. I'm just going to try
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: and manage the stress itself. So any we can probably
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: get into more of this. But that's what I don't
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: like about the idea of stress management is that it's
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: often an avoidance mechanism for looking about these sources of
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: stress in the first place.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: And I would build on this.
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: What I don't like about the term stress management is
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: the inference that all stress is bad and has to
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: be managed. Right, there's you know, there's de stress, and
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: there's you stress, and you know anybody here's who's listening.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: I want you to think about your biggest achievement in
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: your life, like the stuff that you are super super
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: proud of, And then did it involve stress and being
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: out of your comfort zone? And I guarantee you, for
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: ninety nine percent of people, the answer is a resignding yes.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: That is where we grow.
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: And I think we've we've created a society where this
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: whole idea that stress is bad and is making things
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: worse for quite a lot of people, and that that
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: that your.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Attitude as well.
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: And this opens up the whole conversation around this, this
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: attitude around challenging threat that we know that if we
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: are me and you are faced with the exact same
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: stressor if I view it as a threat, it I
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: start to become have all those negative emotions and avoidance behaviors.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: But what it does physiologically that threat and psychology activates
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: cortisol and the major stress hormone, which.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Has a half life of more than an r.
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: Whereas if you view the same thing as a challenge,
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: not only does that change your psychology and probably your
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: behavior around it, but it changes your physiology because it
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: activates your fight or flight response and the chemicals adrenaline
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: and nord adrenaline, which you'll know is Epinefforn and nor
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: Epeneffor and right, and they have a half life of
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: less than a minute, so very quickly you're back to homeostasis,
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: whereas in our leader, I'm still in a hypervigilant state.
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: There's cortisol going through my body, and we know that
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: chronic cortisol ravages your body in your brain, and a
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: lot of that comes from people's just their attitude around it.
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: And that's one of the reasons why fundamentally I hate
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: the term stress management, and that you know, we need
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: to encourage people to have more of that challenge response.
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: But again, I'll just finish off with my rant, is
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: that a challenge response, like I can only really have
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: a challenge response if I believe that I have the
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: resources to be able to deal with it. And that
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: actually comes back to having done hard stuff in a
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: lot of and a lot of things. I believe that
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: I can do this because I've done this before, Whereas
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: if I have a history of avoidance behaviors, of course
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: I've got no belief that I'm going to be able
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: to come this challenge, and then I'm gonna go into
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: a threat response and avoidance behaviors and blah blah blah
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: blah blah.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Anyway, that's my runt. I'll throw that back over to you.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: I love this because it reminds me of one of
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: my favorite ideas in all of psychology and really in
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: all of life, I think, but I think about it
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: in the context of psychology all the time, and that
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: is it's kind of a mouthful, but incrementalism, and incrementalism
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: is kind of a fancy term for this thing we
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: all basically know, which is if you want to get
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: better at something in life like, it basically requires slow,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: steady progress. You do. You know, if you want to learn,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: if you want to be a great piano player, you
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: don't just try and play Beethoven. It's not gonna work.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: You're gonna suck and then you're gonna feel bad. And
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: it's like, that's not how you do it. What do
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: you do? You play Twinkle Twink a Little Star right
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: until you get kind of good at Twinkle Twink a
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Little Star. Then you play chop sticks, then you play whatever,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: and you slowly but surely incrementally, you work your way up,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: building both competence, ability and skill, yes, and confidence. That's
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: where confidence come, everyone wants more confidence.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Like confidence comes from competence, right exactly.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: But I think a lot of people make this mistake,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: especially with kind of personal growth, self improvement, psychological type topics. Again,
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: they think, oh, I read this great book about being
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: more assertive, so I'm going to go like barge into
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: my boss's office and like demand a fifty percent raise
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: or else I'm quitting or something, And then like that
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: doesn't go real, Well, that's because you haven't practiced being
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: more assertive in kind of a gradual way. Or you decide, Okay,
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna do this big thing, and then you chicken
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: out every time. Why is it because you're not It's
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: not because you're a bad person. It's because you're trying
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: to play Beethoven when you haven't learned how to play
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: Twinkle Twinkle.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: A Little Star.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: So I think this applies to so many situations. Is
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: that important to check ourselves and say, yes, we want
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: to get up here, right, but what are the steps
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: I need to take to get up there? Can I
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: design kind of a training program for this? I used
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: to all the time with my anxious clients, like, yeah,
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: you don't want to have panic attacks when you're driving anymore.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: I get it. But what we're gonna start with is
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: little tiny bits of anxiety, and you're gonna get better
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: at feeling the anxiety and being willing to have it
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: and to continue talking to me sitting in a nice
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: comfy office.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Then once you're better at that, we're gonna go for
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: a walk around the block, right, or we're gonna go
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: to the grocery store together, and you're gonna get a
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: little bit more anxiety, but you're gonna slowly build up
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: the skill so that you really believe it. It's not
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: just me. You're like cheerleading therapist telling me you can
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: do it right. No, you have confidence because you have
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: shown yourself that you can do it. So I think
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: this is just so important. I think any good therapist
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: or coach who's worth their who's worth their wait and whatever.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: I think we'll adhere to this on some level because
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: it's it's just the only way anyone grows in anything.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: So.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: So we forgot about that at our at our peril.
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: And I think Nick buried within that message, I think
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: is one of the best bits of parenting advice. If
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: you want to bring up well rounded children. Is they
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: get out of this bullshit idea that came out of
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: the States in the nineteen eighties of you should just
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: boost your kids' self esteem and tell them that they're
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: awesome and they're brilliant and they can be anything that
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: they want to be.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: As you rightly said, and.
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: Any good sports psychologists will tell you this, that confidence
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: comes from competence.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: What you just talked about.
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: So if you want your kids to grow up as
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: well rounded, confident individuals who are adept at stuff, is
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: slowly build up their confidence by getting them to do
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: incrementally hard stuff. Right, That's the thing, not telling them
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: they can be anything they want to be could because
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: there's a friggin' bell curve for a reason. Not everybody
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: can be an astronaut. Right, Yeah, whatever, But I think that, God,
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: I think it's a poor message, right that. I think
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: the message we got to give to kids is you
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: can be the best that you can be, not you
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: can be anything you want to be, or that you
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: are amazing or so special, and you can be the
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: best that you can be if you put it in
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: the work.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I feel like I love you brought
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: that up. I was just talking to somebody about this.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: I got the advice early on from a psychologist, actually
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: a good smart psychologist, who said, you cannot improve your
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: kids self esteem. Only they can improve their self esteem. Yes,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: and actually you trying to do it will only make
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: it harder from them, because it'll teach them that self
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: esteem comes from other people, from outside.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, south validation from the way.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: To you ever have good self esteem, to assume that
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: it's coming from others, You need permission from other people
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: to get self esteem. Right. So the idea is more
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: can and I think this. You know this applies to
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: little kids, I think, but also I think it applies
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: to ourselves, anyone who's out there listening and thinking, like
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: I wish I had better selfish, which is something people
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: write into me all the time about asking about is
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: it's not a matter of like staring in the mirror
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: and telling yourself that you're great and you're wonderful. Yes,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: that's like telling a kid, oh, you're the best, like
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: you can be whatever you want to be. This is
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: not It's well intentioned, but it's not going to do anything.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: I think the smarter way to think about it is
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: how can I create the conditions such that I can
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: build self esteem myself. And I think this idea of incrementalism,
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: setting small, meaningful goals for yourself and following through with
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: them regularly. I think that so that you can develop
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: that competence and confidence. That's where self esteem comes from.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Self esteem is an output, it's an effect. It's not
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: an input. You don't do self esteem. It happens as
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: a result of doing things that you can be proud of, right,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: And I think building, But I think the key there
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: is that idea of if you're struggling with that, start smaller.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: If you're struggling, do something smaller, so that you can
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: give yourself the chance to build up even a tiny
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: amount of competence and then the confidence that comes with it,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: and then you can do a little bit more the
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: next time. So I think it's a great little till.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: Like if you're running into problems like always get smaller.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: What's the What's what's a smaller unit that I can
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: try to tackle so that I can build up that
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: that confidence and competence.
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: And I think that gets combinded today. The issue of
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: this is combinded today with social media and particularly especially
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: teenager but not just teenagers and is everybody and looking
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: on social media and the ridiculous amount of upwards comparison
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: that we have.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: You know, we see.
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: The best little herb brush snapshots of people's lives. We
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: don't see all this shit that's going on, and often
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: we don't see reality.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: And that's what's called an upwards comparison.
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: I'm comparing myself, which is what the human braind does,
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: especially teenagers. And when do you think of when we
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: were kids, Like how many teenagers do we interact with?
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: There might have been one hundred in year class at school,
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: or or in your year level or stuff like that,
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: and we are constantly comparing ourselves. It's a natural thing
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: to do. But now we get to compare ourselves to
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: tens of thousands of people who seemingly have these amazing
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: perfect lives, and that then kind of rule our self
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: esteem further because we think I need to be like them,
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: and that that gap between where I currently am and
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: where I think I should be is just way too
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: big and often way too big to even get people started.
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: So I love your idea of incrementalism and start small
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: and build yourself efficacy through effort.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah that you know the three where I heard this.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: I heard this somewhere, but it was something like, if
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: you must compare yourself to other people, compare yourself based
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: on inputs, not outputs. So I always think, you know,
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Jocko has this thing and I don't really follow him,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: but he's got this thing where he every morning he
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: takes a photo of his watch at like you know,
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: four am or something of him like he's up and
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: he's going to the gym. So it's not photos of
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: him being jacked, right, it's photos of the input of
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: what his photos of him getting up at a godly
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: hour to go work out, which is something anyone can do.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: I can't just be Jocko tomorrow, right, I can't just
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: look incredible, but I could get up early tomorrow and
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: go work out. So I think it's a nice way to,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: you know, think about someone you admire maybe and something
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: you want if you do want to start exercising more,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: you want to start writing more, or whatever it is.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: I do think role models can be useful. But then
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: when you do that, look for the look for the inputs, right,
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: what are the things they're doing that are leading to
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: the outcome that you desire or that you want and
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: keep your focus on the inputs, not so much the outputs.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: I don't I find that like a nice little distinction.
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: Man, that that is sports psychology one oh one, right,
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: But it's hugely important. I mean I I've been doing
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: some mindset coaching for karate athletes and particularly the guys
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: who are wanting to get to the Olympics of the
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: World Championships and talking to them about process versus outcome.
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: So many light bulbs going off right that thinking about
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: when their performance was bad, what were they thinking about?
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: And often it was about I'm in the final, I
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: need to win this, right, or there's people watching me,
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: I need to win this, and they're focusing on the outcome,
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: not on the process, on the skills and behaviors that
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: they need to do. So it's exactly what you're talking about,
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: and all sports psychologists will say this is absolutely critical.
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: Process beats outcome. Every single day of the week. You
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: focus on the process and then the outcome will come
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: or may or may not come. But it's about the
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: process that's the key thing. So that's your inputs think
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: right and completely endorsement.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: And it's you know, it's the emotional fitness thing. You know.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: So in my world of emotional health and resilience, it's
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: if you want to be less anxious, anxiety is the outcome, Like, yeah,
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: you want to be less anxious, like we all want
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: to be less anxious. I think for the most part,
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: the more important question to ask, though, is what are
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: the inputs to my anxiety and what can I do
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: differently there? So, when do I find myself worrying a lot,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: getting lost in worries? And how could I handle that better?
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: What could I do differently when I start to when
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: I start to worry right, or anger if I'm really angry,
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: and like I personally am am a very impatient person.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: So I'm trying to like work, I'm not losing my
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: temper with my kids as much, being a little more relaxed.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: But I've been trying to think about don't worry about
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: the anger. What are the inputs in particular, what are
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: my expectations when I'm sitting down to dinner and I
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: start getting frustrated with my kids, because often that's what
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: I have control over, right, That's what I can actually
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: those are the levers I can pull and adjust, right,
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: and if I can stay focused on those, I will
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: then try to trust that the outcome will take care
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: of itself. Right. So, I think even we're talking about
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: sports psychology and you know, lifting weights, all that kind
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: of stuff, but I think it applies to any type
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: of goal, even these kind of emotional goals that we have,
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: is to stop focusing so much on the emotion and
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: ask yourself, what are the inputs to that emotion that
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: I have some control over?
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it.
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: And and then if you can kneel the not being
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: so angry with your kids, we'll get you back on
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: the podcast because that will be an absolute blockbuster.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: It might be a little laugh if I'm being honest,
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: and you and.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Me both, So let's let's let's let's let's let's.
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: Let's take at different chat here, and you talk about
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: and why we should stop thinking about insomnia as a
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: sleep problem. That's an interesting twist, so so talk us.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Through that, because bears getting really tired of being poked.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Ba I used to get in arguments like fights with
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: people at conference psychology conferences because I'd sort of poked
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: the bear there and claim that you know, insombia is
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: obviously classified as a sleep disorder, right, but you talk
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: to anyone who actually studies sleep, and they will. There
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: is nothing physically wrong with people who have insomnia. There's
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: nothing wrong with your brain, there's no pathology involved. And
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: in fact, people with insomnia, this is a little known statistic.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: People withinsomnia on average don't sleep any less than people
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: without insomnia.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: Oh really, They just spend more time in bed.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Spend way more time in bed, and they spend a
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: ton of time thinking worrying about sleep or not getting sleep,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: anxious about sleep. So my kind of hot take on
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: insomnia is that if you if you think about insomnia descriptively,
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: what it looks like. Sure, it looks like a sleep disorder, right,
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: because it's about sleep. But if you look at it mechanistically,
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: which is how any sophisticated field in medicine, it defines
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: its disorders by mechanics, how it looks superficially. Right. So
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: like when you have a heart attack, right, that's defined
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: by you know, what's going on inside your body when
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: you're having a heart it's not defined by like the
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: fact that you have chest tightness. It's not a chest
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: tightness attack, right, Yes, what is with insomnia? What causes insomnia?
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: The underlying mechanism is anxiety. It's an anxiety issue. You
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: are trying much too hard to sleep, and because you're
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: trying too hard to sleep, you're teaching your brain that
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: all sorts of things around sleep and bed are dangerous,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: and so you're you go into a state of kind
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: of hypervigilance, chronic worry, anxiety, which is fundamentally incompatible with
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: rest and relaxation and sleep, which is why people struggle
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: so much with sleep. That insomnia is literally it's a
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: struggle with sleep. It's the lack of sleep. And so
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: I have found Gotcha by far the most helpful way
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: to get people out of in Zombia. And you can
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: literally cure in Zombia quickly, like really quickly. But what
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: it requires is this fundamental shift and you have to
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: stop thinking about as a sleep problem, and really it's
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: an effort problem. You're trying too hard to do something
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: that only happens when you relax. Yeah.
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because if you if you are up tight, you're
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: in sympathetic nervous system and you're in high beta wave
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: and it is impossible to sleep if you're being as
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: in beta waves. It has to go through alpha wave
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: to theta to fall asleep today and deep sleep is delta.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: Right, So if you are.
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: Stimularly overaraged, and you know that that's what us physiologists
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: a psychologists'll talk about it. It's not that sort of
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: arrisal in bad but but if you are overaraged from
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: a nervous system perspective, good luck getting the sleep.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not gonna happen.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: You got no chucks shut.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting all these people who struggle in somnia.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: They've got checklists, dozens of things they have to do
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: every night before bed. They've got their blackout curtains and
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: they had no blue light, and there's all their weird
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: supplements and like all this stuff, right, which really is
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: just a form of what I call sleep effort. You're
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: trying hard to do something. And if you look at
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: all the best sleepers in the world, they're not the
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: ones with huge checklists and like meticulous routines around sleep.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: The best sleepers break the rules all the time and
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: sleep like babies. You don't need. You don't need all
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: of the tips and tricks and the funky gadgets, And
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: in fact they often get in the way. And so
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: there's we probably all the time to get into like
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: the whole thing, but I will sort of leave it
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: as a like on the mindset level, if you're thinking
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: of sleep as this big problem you have to prepare
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: for and solve, is it really surprising that your brain
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: starts thinking of sleep as a problem and then you
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: shockingly have a hard time actually relaxing and falling asleep.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: Hmmm, yeah. Interesting. There was a guy in university I
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: think it was South Australia.
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: It was one of the local universities who created this
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: program around insmodi. So we created this ring and what
• 54:14
  Speaker 4: happened and I actually got a ring. I was part
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: of the study, just out of interesting. I don't have
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: an insomni issue. But the ring would go on and
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: it would vibrate every fifteen minutes.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: And you actually, I had to get out of bed.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: You had to physically. So there's people insomnia.
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: They had to get out of bed and they had
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: to go and sit in another room until they felt
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: tired again, and then they got into bed and they
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: had to reset it and then it buzzed again after
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: fifteen minutes and they had to get out of bed
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: right And so they did.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: This for.
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: Two nights and created massive amounts of sleep pressure and
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: sleep debt and then all of a sudden bomb they
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: fell asleep. Right, So just manipulation of the physiology and
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: then all the worry and away when I am so
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: friggin tired, If she take an insomniac and don't let
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: them sleep for two days, they will fall asleep pretty quickly.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know why it's such a secret, but there's
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: an approach, and I think it comes out of that
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: approach of describing comes out of this. But there's an
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: approach called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: Which is YIBTI.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is the gold standard. It works and I
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: I've worked with hundreds of people with insomnia. I have
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: never seen it not work when applied. It's curative. It
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: literally gets rid of inzomnia, and it's so powerful and
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: nobody knows about it. Everyone's like stuck on sleeping pills
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: and all sorts of goofy sleep hygiene routines and stuff.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: And there's this approach which is really straightforward that is
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: just phenomenally effective, So people are really interested kind of
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: behavioral therapy for insomnia. It's this really robust protocol for
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: dealing with insomnia. Is super powerful.
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: I've fully endorsed that. And sleeping tablets are not the
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: answer you're that. They don't make you sleep, they put
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: you unconscious. The brain wave patterns are completely different, changes
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: your brain chemistry over time.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: Just a not good ship.
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: And last one just because I have to run, but
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: I really want to talk about this one. You talk
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: about a daily scheduled worry practice being better than drugs
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: or therapy for chronic anxiety, and I.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: Think I know where you're going here, but yeah, talk
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: us through this. I think this is genius.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: It's my favorite. I think it's my favorite practice in
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: all of emotional health. It's so it's so cool, it's
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: so simple, and it's so powerful. It is the number
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: one thing I do that I recommend for anyone with
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: any kind of chronic anxiety. And all it is, it's
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: incredibly simple. All it is is you find ten to
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: fifteen minutes a day and you make time to worry
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: on purpose. And so what you do is you set
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: a little timer for like ten minutes. Then you get
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: out your little just a little pad of paper, and
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: you just write down anything and everything you can think
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: of that you're worried about. It could be tiny, little
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: minor things like I forgot to get bananas at the
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: grocery store. It could be nuclear war, you know it could,
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: and everything in between. Anything you're worried about, you just
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: barf it all down onto the page. Now you're not
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: solving anything. You're not analyzing it, you're not creating to
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: do lists. You're just getting it in your brain and
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: putting it onto paper. After your ten minutes is up,
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: crinkle the paper up, throw it away. Do the same
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: thing the next day. It sounds crazy. I have never
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: found anything as powerful as this for dealing with chronic anxiety,
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: and I don't tend to get into it. But the
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: basic mechanism is that it's essentially exposure therapy for chronic worry.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: You are forcing yourself to deliberately approach your worries instead
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: of what we always do, which is run away from
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: them or try to suppress them or distract ourselves from them,
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: which only makes them more intense, which leads to more anxiety.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: But when you get in the habit, and this is
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: the thing, this is not a coping mechanism. You don't
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: do it when you're anxious. It's an exercise. Like just
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: like you go for a run every day, you like,
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: do your scheduled worry every day, and over time this
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: trains your brain to have a healthier relationship with worry
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: and anxiety. So the overall it desensitizes your brain to
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: worried anxiety. And people who have chronic worry, they're they're
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: highly sensitized to worry and anxiety. So you do this
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: regularly and your overall level of chronic worry is dramatically
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: going to decrease, and along with it your level of
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: chronic anxiety. So it's very simple. I just described it.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: You anyone can do it. I actually maintain a little
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: like my website just for it. It's called Scheduled Worry
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: dot com. And there's a little like package so people
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: can download like little PDAF that shows you how to
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: do it. But it is so powerful, like it's the
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: best if anyone's interested in this, like shoot medium, I
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: love as you can tell, Like, I just get so
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: stoked talking about it because it's it's really powerful and
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: almost no one knows it about it, and it's it's cheap,
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: it's easy, it's free. You're not like eating weird things
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: and like ingesting strange shampicles like. It's just very it's
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: very straightforward and awesome and I highly.
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: Recommend very very cool.
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: Can I suggest a tweak, Yeah, it's rather than get
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: a piece of paper that you throw away, it's have
• 59:11
  Speaker 4: a journal and write it down and just keep it
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: and then six months later come back and go through
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: it line by line to see what came true and
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: what didn't. Because there was a paper released that you've
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: probably seen, this paper around generalized anxiety disorder. They took
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: a bunch of people, I think the name of the
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: paper's worries that don't come true. They got them to
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: write down all of their worries, and then they had
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: to come back as a bunch of time leader. I
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: can't remember when it was hard much later go.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Through line by line and work out what came true.
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: Ninety one percent of the shit that people worried about
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: never came true.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Nice. There's all sorts of really cool variants like that
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: that you can do off schedule. You can get really
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: like sophisticated with it. That's a good one, though I
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: didn't know it was that high. I mean, that's that's
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: It's bunkers. I'll flick you the paper.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: These just bonkers and when people go, oh Jesus right.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: But I love you.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: I love that scheduled worry stuff. In fact, I've loved
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: everything you've talked about. And there's a whole heap of
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: stuff I'd love to talk about, but we will because
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: I have to run for an appointment, and so mere
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: can people go to find most of their schedule worry
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: dot com for the warriors.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: But you have, you've got a pretty awesome news letter.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: Tell us about that and more people can can follow
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: you and find out more.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: Sure, I have a newsletter called The Friendly Mind. It's free.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: It goes ou every week every Monday morning. I've been
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: doing it for seven years now. It's basically an advice
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: column for emotional health, so readers write in with questions
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: about anxiety or stress or anger or you know, depression
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: or whatever it is. I just answer reader questions about
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: bioty things. It's it's really straightforward, practical, kind of no
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: nonsense and friendly. So it's free. You can sign up
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: check it out see if you like it or not.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: The Friendlymind dot com. And yeah, I would love to
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: see you on there. Thanks, Paul. I really appreciate you
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: having me that stuff.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: Yep, mate, great to have you on, I love the conversation.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: Keep doing your ship, keep poking the bar
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: H