Latest / The Capital Shift / Fixing the Housing Gap: Attractive Homes at Every Income Level
Transcript
- Roger Burnett (05:33.586) The folks out there in listener land, watcher land who are just getting to know the Capital Shift and our podcast series, let me introduce you to Sibley. Say hi, Sibley. Sibley Simon (05:45.889) Hi. Thank you. Roger Burnett (05:47.112) Why not wanna introduce yourself and tell the people whom it is you represent and how you got your start in what it is that you guys do. Sibley Simon (05:58.306) Yeah, so I live in Santa Cruz, California. I have spent time living in other parts of the country as well. And I was originally a technology entrepreneur, so I did about 14 years or so of starting a couple software companies that were innovative. but not particularly impact focused or making the world a better place. I just learned a lot through that. And ended up ready for a break, at least. and had a kid and and just got really involved in my local community. And so at that point I was living here in Santa Cruz and not far from Silicon Valley and just got really involved in a no a couple projects locally but then very heavily involved in work on chronically home homelessness. Chronic homelessness. So folks who've been long term homeless who are really at risk of dying on the streets. And So I just I joined some nonprofit leaders locally who were ready to help make a lot of changes in our county as to how homelessness is addressed. We learned from best practices across the country. This was 14 or so years ago, 15 years ago, and really made a lot of changes to government programs, nonprofit programs, churches, volunteers, everything all together. And had dramatic effect. A lot of folks getting then out of long-term homelessness successfully into supportive housing, going on to whatever level of success they're able to have, but not living on the streets. And that's great, but quickly see that homelessness was not going away. And it once we got to a certain point of helping a certain rate of people in our county per month, we were stuck. And what we were stuck on it wasn't even the amount of services available or the things we were stuck on the housing. The housing market, the cost of housing, all that. And the the folks becoming homeless was really about the cost of housing. And all kinds of other factors lead an individual to a crisis point, but the vast majority of these crisis points are gotten through without losing housing in many markets in the United States. Sibley Simon (08:17.985) But where you're extremely expensive, that tips people into homelessness. And then we were out there competing for units when we could pay for a rental unit for someone who was ready to move forward with their life. We had a whole plan, all these services. We were competing against the beginning school teacher or you know, all these other folks in our community. And that did not feel good. We're literally a hundred people show up to rent one little studio apartment, you know. and and all these folks need housing too. Roger Burnett (08:21.917) Uh-huh. Sibley Simon (08:45.973) And so that's when I said, okay, I'm ready to dive into this full time. And I mean before I did, of course, I did a lot of spreadsheets. I looked at a lot of things. And and I said, and I thought we can build housing that's less expensive for people. and at the time I thought I was, you know, particularly more affordable housing. And at a minimum we can do it if investors will take a lower return. Roger Burnett (08:54.674) Yeah. Sibley Simon (09:12.425) And and so raised some pretty philanthropic dollars initially to to work toward that and quickly learned why do we have this housing crisis is particularly in California before it started to grow in other places across the country. and it's because we made it almost impossible to develop the housing that we need. and that led to all kinds of other things about our approach and then where where we are today. But that's how I got started was just some motivation to be like, this is not acceptable. Roger Burnett (09:30.674) Right. Right. Sibley Simon (09:40.769) that all kinds of essential workers in our community, families, et cetera. You know, I had the kid when I took that break and then started diving into this topic. And then we lost our first two childcare providers to the housing crisis and they had to move out of the region, you know. So became just really passionate that our communities can't thrive without a real an effective housing market. Roger Burnett (10:10.812) So the the pressure was building. We'll we'll if this is a movie plot, we'll say the protagonist now has been exposed to the evil plot that is going on, and now it's a matter of the character deciding do we have what it takes in us to overcome this problem and defeat the evil people that are creating this homelessness problem in my community. So Sibley, what what did you find a guide? W was there a hero that came along that helped you along your way or w what inflection point sort of took you from where you were in that moment to where you are today? Sibley Simon (10:49.888) Yeah, and only because of all the mini local politics and everything else I have to say, there's no evil people involved in the story. There's just bad systems and bad incentives and bad rules, you know? yeah, yeah. Exactly. many different folks. Nobody had the answer would have been happening, right? r writ large, because but there are multiple barriers and certainly had Roger Burnett (11:01.332) There you go. There there's there's your villain. There's your villain right there. Roger Burnett (11:14.302) Sure. Sibley Simon (11:19.712) You know, incredible folks who invested money in our nonprofit fund that does return capital and a modest annual return to investors. I started out eleven years ago, the New Way Homes Fund. And all I had was a plan and and energy, right? And I had some folks who'd seen our good work on homelessness, so you know, that track record, but some folks who invested money in that to get this started. That was amazing. I learned from other developers. That was amazing. And then Roger Burnett (11:39.188) Sure. Sibley Simon (11:48.425) You know, then at the same time, there's incredible good fortune that you know, there's not many problems, giant problems today, where you can say that there's a key level of our government is really working intelligently and diligently and year after year systematically to help solve the problem. And that's true with housing in California and some other places across the country now too. but it got s it was so bad that it finally became a really at the state level widely recognized enough of a problem. And mostly the politics aligned with often bipartisan work to try to solve the problem. Politics do not align on a local level almost anywhere, but at the state level they do. And so at the same time I was starting to raise money, starting to learn from other developers, starting to figure out just initial projects we could do, even if those projects are not financially off the charts, successful, at least could happen and have an impact and learn from that and be building a system that then can work financially. 'Cause I believe from the beginning anybody can bring could Could be put in hard work and be smart and get philanthropic dollars, get volunteers and build one small housing project. You know, like we did one that's seven units of permanent supportive housing for folks coming out of chronic homelessness in the perfect location. Did one that's re-entry housing project at a church in in Oakland for twenty adults coming out of prison who are ready to Roger Burnett (13:12.052) Sure. Sibley Simon (13:27.262) really get jobs and and move to sustainability. You know, you can pull together and do a project, but if you're gonna move the needle in a community, you need a system that works with capital that can accelerate it, right? And scale it. And so from the beginning I had my eye on that. Like, okay, I know some of these first projects Roger Burnett (13:36.5) Mm-hmm. Sibley Simon (13:46.527) are going to return really low returns to philanthropic investors. And there's always a role and there's always projects like that. And we always take on a couple projects like that where that's the only way to do it. And great, incredibly high impact and modest financial return. But to move the needle, okay, we need these opportunities that work at more of a market rate, capital return risk adjusted, and system that does that. So always having an eye on that and working toward that. Roger Burnett (14:07.612) For sure. Sibley Simon (14:13.996) and so and in parallel playing a role with the policy change. And you know, hundreds, literally hundreds of housing laws have now in this eleven last eleven years have passed in the state legislature in California. And we're a part our our little organization's a part of quite a few of them, whether it's just suggesting wording changes so that we know they'll work right or doing a little bit of contacting lawmakers. But lot of it's putting in ideas up front, like, okay, we passed this law two years ago, but here's the part that's still not working. Can we go back and fix that? And we did some of that this year, for example. So, so all of that together to overcome these challenges to make housing more development of new infill housing more predictable, less risky, and financially feasible, find those solutions Roger Burnett (14:49.044) Mm-hmm. Sibley Simon (15:09.322) So they can still be really impact positively impactful and work. Roger Burnett (15:14.906) Okay, so Mr. Big Shot, talking about all the wins, there's gotta be one that is sort of your for example, give me a completed project that maybe is one that you would point to in a pitch deck or you're making a presentation to a group of investors that you want to be like, Hey, example A of what I'm talking about is the project that I want you to share with me. Sibley Simon (15:46.272) Yeah, so one of my personal missions then growing out of this is how to build we'll build full range of rental housing that's that's infill and environmentally sustainable, et cetera, but but full range in terms of income levels, et cetera. I'm gonna mention a couple things, stretch the question a little bit, but you know, one I just have to say because of the origin story, a passion project that is literally about to complete Roger Burnett (16:05.705) Good. Sibley Simon (16:13.063) in the next month and have folks move in is a hundred and twenty-one unit project that's all permanent supportive housing. And and so part of the mission is how to create this range of housing and some of it much more affordable without or with less public dollars because the public subsidy dollars is kind of at any one time is a fixed pie. It all gets used most of it's highly competitive. So we have to do more with less, you know, to move the needle. And so that project deeply impact oriented And it has both impact investors in it who funded it. It both needed new state laws to happen. It then did has gotten some subsidy, but not some of the most you know competitive forms that a lot of projects use. You know, it just put a whole bunch of tools together and it's gonna transform our community in terms of housing with services for the very most vulnerable. So I'm really proud of that. I just have to mention it because but it those kind of things can take ten years, you know, and that's it. Roger Burnett (17:10.132) Sure. Sibley Simon (17:10.869) But getting on to where our model that we're going to talk about, that we're really accelerating now, one that's also now under con midway through construction, it'll finish next spring. 100 units of all affordable, lower income, affordable housing. And that project is bringing great returns for the early stage investors, which is our model going forward for both mixed income, mostly market rate apartment buildings and 100% affordable buildings. And and that project we were able it's pretty much unheard of in California. It's a hundred percent affordable project. And from just getting a contract for the site, purchase contract for the site, and just starting work at that point on the project to starting construction was fifteen months. And there might be places in the country where people are like, okay, so what? Like in California with affordable housing projects, that's usually five years, if it goes well. Roger Burnett (17:59.805) Yeah. Roger Burnett (18:07.346) Yeah. Right. Sibley Simon (18:09.111) And and fifteen months, you know, getting in the entitlement process, using a new state streamlining law. And and delicately you have to say, you know, while there were no community protests, no big movement against this project, there were a couple folks high level in the city government who absolutely didn't want to have it. This is a small city, won't call them out right now, but you know, a Silicon Valley suburb that's only had one affordable housing project in its entire history. Roger Burnett (18:37.677) Sibley Simon (18:38.717) it scores incredibly well because there's upward mobility there. It's exactly one of the places the affordable housing system wants affordable housing. but they were able to for decades prevent affordable housing. And now with with the state laws, with knowing what we're doing, checking all the boxes through to building permit. in this we were able to do this thing where yes, we got tax credits, but no other state money, no state or federal dollars or local dollars going directly into the project for construction. and are able to do it. And now people n next year this time it's gonna be full of families, with with affordable housing down the street from the schools, you know, and grocery store and everything. So and it's you know, it's biased towards folks who already work in the area. So so some of these families will be ones that are commuting in an hour away because there's nothing they can afford, but they have jobs there, you know. So yeah, really excited about that. Roger Burnett (19:08.924) RASHU! Roger Burnett (19:33.682) Not the all right, so bravo. Thank you. Because The cynic will say, you can't do it. Or worse yet, in the marketplaces where I am working my trade, the builders can they they have the choice to pick most of the time. So they're gonna pick the high margin project. So What what anyone besides that builder has to do when they enter a market is they have to find their niche. They have to find their place. And this one that you're describing for Most anywhere I'm living in Michigan and from the middle of our state north to the lower peninsula's border, there's 11,000 unit shortage in our state when it comes to the kind of housing that you're describing. And it creates the exact environment that you just articulated. People can't live anywhere near the places that they work. Which adds all kinds of additional cost to their lives. It adds all kinds of time constraints that are of no benefit to anyone. And consequently, if somet a little one thing goes wrong, the entirety of the rest of everything follows suit. So Roger Burnett (21:01.022) Give ourselves the opportunity to find a way to clear that hurdle, and the scale of it has the potential to be enormous. So, Sibley, I'll tell you what I told you before, before we recorded. Like, thank you for being willing to try to solve the problem first and foremost. But secondarily, and you know, if we're being honest capitalists right now. It created an opportunity that you've now structured that is of interest that people should know about. So this is the whole point of I want people to understand and we will do our best to layer in some photography, some content that people can see, imagery around what's being built. So it's important that they can see what we're talking about, but more importantly, it's created economic opportunity because Sibley and other smart people were wise enough to say if we solve the problem, capital will flow to the solution. So I want to give you some time to talk about. Okay, so we're really just setting the stage to talk about what we really want to talk about, which is the fund. Right? So so you know. Talk about how you sort of got there and then, you know, what the vehicle is that you're sitting with today. Sibley Simon (22:17.918) Yeah, so as we were, you know, completing some projects, getting pr bigger projects under construction, you know, we really and spent a decade, you know, learning this, seeing the rules change, which is a whole subject. I have a little podcast myself which is just about the niche of niche of how do we use all these state housing laws in California, how do developers use them, how do cities process permits under them and stuff s because the laws only Do good if people use them, right? So so that's a core part of our expertise. So we build all this expertise and then really came to understand: okay, there is money out there, there is capital out there to build these projects. If if we're picking the right projects, designing them correctly, they meet the metrics, whether they're an affordable project that just needs tax credits but doesn't need other subsidy, or it's market rate rental units that ha have You know, often maybe ten to twenty percent of the units are lower income, and the rest is market rate, which is also really important. A couple of those buildings came online in Santa Cruz in last couple of years, and average rents across the city for only the second time I know of in forty years. You know, one was the Great Recession, and this is the second time when rent stopped going up. Everybody's average rent stopped going up for a couple of years. because enough market rate housing came on that were rental, absorbed the s gradual. stream of high earners we get from Silicon Valley here. so then it it's not a huge wave, it's just a gradual stream. And if those folks go into the best, newest, brightest, shiniest units, they're not bidding up everything out the limited supply of everything else, right? So either of those kind of projects, we love them when they're done right. And if and if we formulate correctly, there's plenty of money out there, construction loans and big sources of equity, family offices, whatever, that will provide the funding Roger Burnett (23:53.748) Sure. Sibley Simon (24:15.23) To build the building, but it has to be shovel ready. They don't want to talk about the project until it's entitled, which planning permits, zoning permits, different parts of the country call different things. So I often say we say entitled, and then pretty close to building permit and having your construction loan lined up, then we'll come in and and provide that funding. So we have to get them to that point. And so we first these couple of projects I mentioned that. Roger Burnett (24:38.898) Right. Sibley Simon (24:42.522) affordable housing project that's under construction now. We have another one that's gonna start construction in the spring that is already approved and we're kind of building permits now. And those couple of you know when the opportunity comes up, the right site comes up, we had to really scramble. Like find investors immediately. You know, how do we do this? Have just enough money to get going and confident we're gonna pull together the money to to get the permitting done. And so we did that a couple of times. And then fortunately for us, a couple folks came to us in the local community and said, We love to s we love what you're doing. We're interested in starting to invest in real estate locally here. But we don't want to invest in just one project. We want to spread money across projects. And internally, some of us, me and my partners, we've been talking about, we really need a fund, you know, so that we can jump on these opportunities when they come. We pass up opportunities, you know. Roger Burnett (25:12.434) Sibley Simon (25:39.124) That we think are great. and so at this fortunately a couple folks, local investors, came to us and we had a bunch of conversations with them where they wanted to spread their money across projects. They also didn't want to lock their money up for 10 or 15 years, you know. But they knew we needed it committed. They can't just call us up and say, I want my money out next week, because we gotta go through the cycle of a project. So what we came up with is this housing catalyst fund. And we wouldn't have built it just for these two investors, but we've by the time we worked this out, I really felt, there's other folks are it's a little different than what's out there, there's people who are gonna like it. And so we formulated it last year, started it, just got our first half dozen investors for about nine hundred thousand dollars into it while we were mainly working on projects and working on other things. Roger Burnett (26:06.718) Okay. Roger Burnett (26:18.26) For sure. Sibley Simon (26:31.649) and used that to invest be partial funding for a couple projects we already had started. and then as we're coming into this summer, we knew we had a big project that was a great opportunity. We've been teeing up for a while in Santa Cruz and so we knew that was coming up this summer to get started on. And so I really started reaching out to my you know, just on email to my personal network, on LinkedIn also and stuff. And so just this quarter we've raised about a million dollars from another ten investors and and we got a bunch more you know in the pipeline that are coming toward investment. So that has proved to to be working and and to say what it is, this is really funding for just the piece of after we identify a site and get control of it, getting those entitlements done. because we don't even really need funding for the building permit because once a site is entitled it's so much more valuable we can then borrow money or bring in a a large builder who will put in money or just other things we can get funding to do the little more expensive part of getting the building permit. So it's this planning permit part where It can be up to a million dollars on a project, on a large project. We have the that one we I was mentioning we s just started, we imagine it's gonna be a budget of close to a million dollars and that's for about two hundred and forty unit, a hundred percent lower income affordable project with some commercial space as well. so it's incredible leverage because that's well under one percent of the development cost of the project. So this one percent, less than one percent of the project's overall budget to get to completion just unlocks everything else. We're often finding arrangements where we don't need to buy the site up front. We can get this entitlement done and again then borrow money to buy the site. so we really just need this piece. And so for that, we can provide a high return to investors for that piece. Roger Burnett (28:16.933) Nice. Roger Burnett (28:41.392) Right. Sibley Simon (28:41.777) Because it doesn't really move the needle on the total development cost of the project. So we're targeting twenty to twenty-five percent annual return to investors in this fund. And then we can reuse this money because the those the project just needs the capital for we say I say one to four years. We aim for one to two years in every project. And then, you know, like I mentioned, that fast project, 15 months, boom, once construction. Roger Burnett (29:02.673) Right. Sibley Simon (29:10.245) starts by the time construction starts this fund gets taken back out of a project. So it's just for that early stage. That's the fast end. And then yes, some projects hit something where it's like, that's gonna take an extra year or year and a half, you know, to to to work through. But they're in that range. And so the fund invests in projects. Those projects need that this early stage capital for one to four years. Then by the time construction starts Roger Burnett (29:15.877) Yes. Sibley Simon (29:37.896) The project buys the fund back out of the project with the target rate of return. The upside gets sent out to investors at that point. And then investors who've been in the fund a while since that project started get the opportunity to withdraw some of their money then. So we have this liquidity opportunity at that point and say, do you want to withdraw or do you want to leave your funding in and have it cycle to the next project? Roger Burnett (29:54.395) Right. Roger Burnett (30:03.697) Yep. So just so that we make sure for our consumer of the content so velocity of capital we're saying two two years to four years somewhere in that ballpark fair. Sibley Simon (30:20.093) Yep, that's right. I think and really it's kind of a rolling time period like that. Like we put the capital to work pretty quickly when someone invests, and then but either way they're accruing this target return. As soon as they invest, we're accruing that, you know, that target. But we have a fifteen percent preferred return. So our the fund itself is not a profit center for us. We're hoping to cover our all our costs of running the fund. but Roger Burnett (30:25.809) Sure. Yeah. Roger Burnett (30:34.267) Mm-hmm. Roger Burnett (30:45.071) Right. Right. Sibley Simon (30:48.423) you know, everybody wants us aligned of the projects have to work and successful for us to to be be paid, basically. So that's right. and so once someone says, Well, I wanna start winding out of this fund, it may take them a couple of years to get their money fully out of the fund. But otherwise they can leave it in in an evergreen way. Roger Burnett (30:52.12) Sure. Roger Burnett (31:07.099) Yeah. Yep. Well, and as we continuously reiterate to All listeners of the program, typically speaking, if you've made an investment in a project that you believe in and you've gotten the return that you believe you were expected, why not just let it ride and continue to reap the benefit? Because unless circumstances have changed, typically the fund is still doing the work that you as the investor believed in when you made your initial investment. So we'd like to see that money be sticky. I think in your instance, maybe more so than most. There's a reason for the stickiness beyond just the return, given what it is that it's doing in the community that it is serving. And for the smart investor who maybe also has an eye towards the future and maybe wants to, I don't know, maybe do something in their own community. That's similar. What a great way to learn how to mimic than by studying at the feet of the people who are already doing that kind of work. Now the only question that I have that I think is left is ta tax efficiency. Does investing in the fund provide our steward any tax efficiency in the process? Sibley Simon (32:30.95) Yeah, there's it's not a core focus of the fund itself. There's a little bit like while the money's being used, there's passive loss that flows through. So if people have passive income. Where we've had folks more concerned about that, we do have an opportunity zone fund, so we can kind of, you know, pair with that. Or if people have capital gains, they want to invest in the same kind of projects. Or the other is that we've had multiple investors. invest through self directed IRAs. So, you know, they want to make this investment. And obviously it's that vehicle that's giving the tax advantage, but you know, we can fit into that. So yeah, this isn't as much a vehicle that just straight up gives tax a advantage. but we are, you know, we are getting close to the velocity at where, you know, we expect to have a a cash payout every Roger Burnett (33:10.972) For sure. Sibley Simon (33:25.904) year on average to investors. You know, some years may have a couple and then might be a little longer between, depending on how you know project timing goes. But we're getting to that point where it's more and more frequent. projects get to that milestone and make payments out to investors. And I will say one, I know one of your questions is often about a leverage. And so you know, yes, it's highly it uses that benefit quite a bit, as I described, but I also say, you know, a lot of real estate investments Roger Burnett (33:44.263) Mm-hmm. Sibley Simon (33:54.321) very leveraged at first. And then as you pay down, you know, debt or appreciation happens, or whatever, then sometimes you might sell that investment and leverage that into a larger building, larger property or something like that. This kind of just always keeps doing that because it's the whole point is it's cycling in and out and always sort of maintaining that high degree of leverage by being in this particular phase of a project's development. Roger Burnett (34:22.299) Right, so we'll we'll do a little a little ad ad we'll do a little 301 investment course knowledge here. because of the economy right now, ta sure tax is important, but it's important for the people that it's important for. Everybody else needs income, right? Because There's not a lot of opportunity to sit around and wait for a multiple at the moment. And because velocity of capital has grown in importance, the fact that you've created an opportunity because your deal flow is good, because you're serving a market that needs it. So you are gonna. Constantly you can develop your own opportunities that your own fund can take care of. So there's some verticality to what you've done because it gives you the opportunity to create the projects, source other projects, and then marry it to the funding source that has already proven itself reliable to the people who are invested in it. If we just cut that one little part out and said, How do you create a successful investment strategy? It's what I just said right there. It's find people who want to continue to get what you're giving them for a return and find more projects to have them give you money for. So congratulations, Sibyl. You've gotten and but granted, it took you fifty it took you 15 years to get there, right? And Sibley Simon (35:53.319) Yeah. Sibley Simon (35:58.31) Yeah, that's right. Roger Burnett (35:58.385) This is the thing we need to remind we need to remind people is it was a 15-year effort that ultimately rewarded you at the end. So the fact that you were able to leverage it into an actual financial instrument really is the PA de resistance, if you say it, because lots of people are running around hustling, creating opportunities, and then trying to f find funding for them. And this solves that problem. So I What what's been the ancillary benefits for you as a result of kind of uncoupling that whole treadmill? Sibley Simon (36:38.879) you know, I think there's different there's multiple stages of that journey. And we're at this stage now where y yes, we're able to attract the capital, put it to use, and that I mean the huge benefit there first is impact, you know, it is that okay, we're able to do this at scale, that's the dream, you know, the vision really have a significant impact on communities around here and housing need. and and that's just also really motivating, satisfying, you know, being able to work at a little bit larger scale, have the staff, you know, I didn't haven't even said that we have a whole system for doing this where, you know, we have our own architecture team, so we're the architects on projects, we have a GC license. We don't we're not the general contractor on big apartment buildings, but we can build small projects, but that gives us expertise on designing things that are efficient to build. being able to check pricing, other things, or doing owners rep work ourselves with construction knowledge. So, you know, we're really try be very integrated, you know, what you're saying is so we can really understand the whole path. And and we're on the cusp here of of getting to the point where I think, you know, even in the next year and eighteen months, it really we have the number of projects at the scale where Roger Burnett (37:47.59) Right. Sibley Simon (38:05.319) Yeah, it takes so long for these to get done, right? But some finishing, others underway. Well, we're finally gonna have the n amount of staff where we can just be like, okay, I'm not sprinting like a startup guy, right? So that's that i I mean, and I'm always determined. I do not give up, you know, that's my but you know, get into the point where okay, it's a more sustainable pace for me. Roger Burnett (38:14.491) There we go. There you go. Sibley Simon (38:33.339) you know, working where it's I love my work. I absolutely love it. I'm gonna keep loving it for years to come. I I get to learn all the time. It's incredible learning all the time because you it's the amount of experts on different things. And this project has soil geology, you know, and and that kind of stuff you get to learn about. And this one has engineering and then this one has public relations topics and commercial uses and all and Roger Burnett (38:52.327) Right. Right. Sibley Simon (39:01.243) Some days and some months and some years, I just want to be doing ten percent fewer hours. That's it. You know, I'm not ready to retire just ten percent fewer hours. And I can see that time coming. And so to talk really personally, you know, yes, I am trying to achieve that while achieving everything else for for everybody involved in this. Roger Burnett (39:20.817) That's great. That's great. Well that's called secession, my friend. And regardless of whether you're a nonprofit or a for-profit, you need to be able to allow the business and what it does to continue in your absence because the only thing that's guaranteed is we all have an expiration date. So giving yourself the opportunity to be able to create legacy for your impact is probably the exact right thing for you to be doing at this stage of the game. And if anyone has been so moved that they may want to I don't know, the Googlers in this crowd may be slightly sympathetic to California's h housing insecurity problems. How might we have people track you down, sir? They wanted to learn more about what you're doing. Sibley Simon (40:11.335) Yeah, so my email is I don't know if you want to put it in show notes or whatever, but you know, Sibley S-I-B-L-E-Y at workbench built dot com. So that's just like it sounds like there's three words there, workbench built dot com. So that's a good way. And you know you're welcome to put my Roger Burnett (40:19.441) Go for it. Sibley Simon (40:38.339) cell phone number in the sh show notes too because you know I'm even more responsive on text and doing that all the time too. But yeah, and we've had, you know, to your point, yes, we've had folks invest who want to learn from what we're doing and we're big on sending out, you know, quarterly reports on all the projects, everything going on, on taking people's calls and questions, wanting to learn more, periodically, you know, doing a call with folks who just want to ask questions, get into it. Roger Burnett (40:44.465) Yeah, man. Sibley Simon (41:04.671) And, you know, yes, we also certainly get a lot of folks who are like, care about California, wanna invest in solutions. Also get, you know, I talked to somebody yesterday I knew who's in North Carolina and they're like, you know, I already do real estate investment, but it's all here in North Carolina. So it'd be great to just have something in the opp opposite s end of the country that has its own, you know, benefits and drawbacks and everything. So, you know, we get all of those things. Roger Burnett (41:29.383) For sure. Sibley Simon (41:32.933) Yeah, so love to have folks reach out for any of those reasons. Roger Burnett (41:33.436) Yeah. Roger Burnett (41:37.943) I'm always a huge proponent of if there's a pr a purpose beyond our investment objective that allows us the added benefit of making the world a better place while we're also reaping a financial benefit. it goes straight to the front of the line when it comes to the Burnett family. So I for one am very grateful for the work you're doing, Sibley. And I you know I was you knew how excited I was to have you out on the program and you did me exactly the way I had hoped. So that's it. That's all. That's everything. I hope money comes flying at you and you keep solving those problems at scale, because I'm over here cheering for you, my friend. until next time. Sibley Simon (42:21.799) Thank you, Roger. I really appreciate that. Thank you very much. Roger Burnett (42:28.517) Alright, there you go.