Latest / Selling on Giants: The eCommerce Marketplace Podcast / Winning the First Click: Smarter Packaging for Amazon, Walmart, and Shopify with Justin Chen

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Winning the First Click: Smarter Packaging for Amazon, Walmart, and Shopify with Justin Chen · Selling on Giants: The eCommerce Marketplace Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Selling on Giants.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Mr.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Will, co-founder of Bellovix, an Amazon marketing partner, part of the global selling network, and the team behind over half a billion dollars in sales on Amazon and Walmart.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest is here to help us rethink one of the most overlooked levers for growth, and that's packaging.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Joining me is Justin Chen, co-founder of PicFoo, a consumer research platform that helps brands test and validate product decisions before launch using real targeted feedback.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: In e-commerce, packaging is more than just the box.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's your first impression, your inline billboard, and often the difference between scrolling path and a sale.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yet too many brands leave packaging decisions to chance.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, we're gonna explore why packaging matters more than ever, how brands can test before going to market, and what the smartest operators are doing to stay ahead as they expand across Amazon, Walmart, Shopify, and beyond.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: We'll also talk about common mistakes, surprising feedback from consumers, and how packaging should evolve when entering new marketplaces.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's jump in.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Selling on Giants.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Today's episode focuses on why packaging is a make or break factor for e-commerce success.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what stood out from our conversation with Justin Chen, the co-founder of PicFu.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: First and foremost, packaging drives conversion.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's often the first interaction consumers have with your product.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: If it doesn't resonate, they scroll past.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Two, testing before launch is critical.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Brands can use tools like PicFu to validate packaging designs, messaging, and visuals before going live, reducing the guesswork and risk.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Three, common mistakes can cost sales.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Brands often overlook clarity, readability, and marketplace requirements, which can lead to poor performance and negative reviews.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And last but not least, patch packaging must evolve across the channel.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: What works on Amazon may not resonate with Target or Walmart.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you're scaling in today's crowded e-commerce landscape, packaging isn't something to overlook.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Smarter decisions at the packaging level lead to higher conversions, better reviews, and long-term brand equity.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's dive into the full interview with Justin.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Hey Justin, thanks so much for being on the show.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to have you on board and to talk about one of my most interesting topics because I don't have a lot of experience around this, smarter packaging and what it means for e-commerce brands.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: But before we get started, I want to introduce you to my audience and get the get to know you a little better.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: So with that being said, let's start with your background.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: What inspired you to create PicFu and focus on consumer research and package validation?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thanks for having me on the podcast.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, um, so kind of an uh interesting background to how we started.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: My co-founder and I started PicFu.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: We were we're both software people, so we didn't come from the world of e-commerce or anything like that, or research even, but we were building a completely different business.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: We were building a website, um, like a restaurant directory, and we were going through a redesign process, and we had two different designs, and we both couldn't agree on which one we wanted to use.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: So being nerds, we said, well, we should get some consumer feedback.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but we were tired of asking our friends and family, and uh, you know, any entrepreneur can probably go through this uh this phase where you know they they start asking their friends and family for feedback, but at a certain point, you realize that they're not giving really good feedback, they're probably not even your target audience, and so we were kind of done with that.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, being nerds, we've decided to build a solution for ourselves, and that's where PicFu started as a side project many, many years ago.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so we used it to get feedback on two different designs, and we wanted written feedback as well, and so um we threw it up on the internet just to see like what would happen and uh see if other entrepreneurs would benefit from it.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and they did.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so, like over the years, we just we saw really interesting organic usage in all kinds of different industries.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: So we saw authors testing book titles and book covers, we saw game companies testing characters and app app icons.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: And eventually we started seeing e-commerce brands testing all kinds of things, as you can imagine, because they're making such large investments into their product or their marketing and all this kind of stuff.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of times they weren't getting any feedback, yeah, and so a lot of times they were flopping, and so they're retroactively trying to figure out like how do I fix this failed launch?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where that's how people found us.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: That is amazing.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, uh, in all transparency, Belavicks is a big fan.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's the agency uh that I run.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: We love PicFu.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's funny, uh, yeah, we use it for our e-commerce clients, but we are in the process of updating our website, and we ran probably like six or seven different tests on themes and pages.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and we got some really like what it's so funny you mentioned friends and what my friends and family voted on, and then what the market said were they were very different.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: But Antano, you work with sellers from indie brands to major uh indie startups to major brands.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you enjoy most about helping them improve their products and decision-making process?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and uh that we love being able to work on that full spraction.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, one of the reasons we actually decided to stop working on our other business and focus on this was we just kept hearing such amazing stories about how Picfu and its consumer feedback was helping people make really critical and impactful business decisions.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think what's interesting about the full spraction is we do see kind of the smaller sellers getting their first product out the door and they're seeing wins, and we, you know, you get the ride along with them and they're that excitement.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: And then on the other end, we we have larger corporate brands that are um testing huge campaigns that we're all seeing, you know, on TV or you know on the Super Bowl, that kind of thing.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's also exciting because um we like to say that it's consumer insights for non-insights people, and that kind of works in two different ways, right?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you're a small brief brand, a solo entrepreneur, you don't even have a team, so you don't have an insights team.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: So of course, you're not an insights person, and so we try to make it easy to use for you.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: But even for the larger brands, um, a large corporate brand that has an insights team, typically those insights teams are only for larger studies, larger decisions that they're making, you know, strategic things that are gonna take many weeks or months and cost, you know, five to six figures uh in spend.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: But if they're trying to test something smaller, like a packaging tweak or you know, what marketing creative that they want to use on their on their product uh detail page, they can't go to their insights team.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: The insights team is gonna laugh at them and say, like, that's too small for us.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's where we come in, where the non-insights folks, the designers, the marketing managers, the product managers of all these different teams, brand managers, can now run their own insights without having to have the expertise of figuring out how to you know find the panel, do all the data quality filtering, you know, write the questions, do all the analysis.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: So we try to do all of that in a you know easy to use package.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you guys hit ahead.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, a lot of times when I talk to brands, especially smaller brands, like to your point, it's incremental improvement leads to long-term growth.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And like what's really great about your product is like you can test that.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what's great is you can run tests on PicFu and uh John, oh my god, I forgot his last name.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Your ambassador, John John Aspinall.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: John Aspinall, he has a really good, like three-step process that uh we have borrowed from him.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Don't tell him because he might have some royalty checks coming.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's really effective.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then being able to take that and kind of run it through, manage your experiment experiments, for example.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you guys are uh you really have a defined audience.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I any of my listeners who's listening, if you guys decide to use it, it it's a really fun and intuitive platform.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And being entrepreneurial like myself, it is pretty easy.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't need to uh have a deep layer of uh of insights or uh in John's case, an IT background, or excuse me, Justin's case, an IT background to be able to uh uh to use the software.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: But on that note, let's jump into the main topic.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: I do not know much about uh product packaging.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really excited to jump into winning the first click, smarter packaging in e-commerce.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna start super high level.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Why does packaging matter so much in e-commerce?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, be so if you think about it, packaging, packaging is the first impression.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: So as we're browsing, you're searching for typically if you're buying on a marketplace like Amazon or Walmart or even Target, you're you're you're searching for something generic, not a specific brand.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, um dog wipes or baby wipes or something like that.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: You're you're putting in a search term and then you're just scanning all the different things.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: Now, of course, the main image that a lot of people talk about is important, but the main part of that main image is the product packaging.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so it really is the first impression for giving a sense of quality, what it is, what it includes, what the quality is, what the quantity is, all those different things.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, if you don't get that impression right, people are just gonna scroll past it, right?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: So um, even before optimizing your main image, which you can do on some of the platforms, you need to get you want to try to get the packaging right.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, there's a lot of different schools of thought around different approaches, and it kind of depends on the brand.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, some like to go very simple, some like to be a little bit more detailed, and it also honestly depends on your audience.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh different countries also like different things, right?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: So are you gonna be more factual on it or sell the benefits, right?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: And that's kind of like a different cultural thing that you'll you'll have to navigate depending on your audience.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that sounds like also depends on your category, too.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, obviously.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: But you did you did hit something that that uh I want to dive a little deeper in this.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: What what elements should brands consider when they're testing their package?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is it you know, outside of some of the nuances?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is it design?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is it colors?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is it copy?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is it imagery?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like what when you're thinking of packaging and and maybe running tests or uh experimenting with variations, like what typically should a seller consider?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's kind of all of those things.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I I would even step back and um think about what your target audience, what your avatar is looking for when they're making a decision about let's say baby wipes.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, you could even do an open-ended question.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: So again, think of PicFu or anything like this as a digital focus group.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: So if you had a bunch of parents in a room and you asked them what's important to you when you're buying baby wipes or deciding what baby wipes to buy, yeah.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: And they're gonna give you a bunch, you know, a bunch of answers.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's about uh around, you know, are there chemicals in it?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, what's the quantity or the value of it?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, things like that.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so those are probably probably things you may want to emphasize on your packaging, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: So if if quantity or no, you know, no chemicals added is an important thing, maybe that should just be on your packaging.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, you may want to put it on the main image, but even better if it's actually on your packaging.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's where I would start is kind of like thinking about what information you want first.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, then I would you know start looking at color.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: And this is where you can start looking.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, you probably have your brand colors, but you may want to look at what your competition is doing.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um and there's there's two approaches to that, right?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: One is you want to be part of the category, or you want to stand out.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so um when you're scanning the search results, um, you know, maybe maybe you want something to pop.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: And uh we actually had a brand, um Angry Orange, which is one of Thracio's uh famous brands, and uh part of their redesign, so they did a redesign, a packaging redesign on PicFu.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know if you've ever seen the old packaging, but it was very, I would say homely, home designed, you know, it was it was fine and it was uh it was like a home formulation, and so it kind of had like a lot of text, and it was just you know, not very interestingly branded, but they really wanted to make something pop, and so they wanted to make sure that um it stood out against the competition.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so what they eventually uh settled on based on their testing with PicFu is this is this beautiful bright orange bottle that really just pops, and so like the bottle itself pops when you look for pet deodorizer because you don't see many other ones where it's like this bright orange bottle, and so that is a strategy that you could use in your product packaging, trying to test your color against the competition.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: And that brings up another interesting point where you know it's always important, it's definitely important to test iterations of your own variations, but even more important to test against your competition.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, sometimes people will over-index on like, well, I I tested so many times all my different variations, but it still didn't do well.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, in a competitive marketplace, if you don't then test against your competition, then what have you really optimized for?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like you just found the the local maxima of your your packaging or your design, but at the end of the day, you're competing in a in this you know absolute marketplace, right?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's some really good points, and that's a that's you know, consideration.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm a brand and I'm launching, there's nothing wrong with blending into the category, and there's obviously some advantages that are part of that, you know, the if it's working and it's working well for others, and you know, maybe you're just trying to get a piece of that and there's nothing unique.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, then it makes sense, but also an element of having something creative that will show your brand and be different on that page of so much competition.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And what I liked that you highlighted too, it's like you should not only be testing against yourself and the variations, uh, but also be testing against the competition.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because to your point, like if you're, you know, if you're 5% out of 100, you're just testing against that over and over again, you know, the real opportunity or the real data is gonna come from, you know, what the top sellers are doing and how you can differentiate yourself from there.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm gonna go a little deeper now.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Let's uh let's jump into some more intermediate questions.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what do you think are the most common mistakes brands make when designing packaging for platforms like Amazon and Walmart and their D2C?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just say Shopify for argument's sake.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I guess the the first obvious mistake is assuming that your preference is your custom your customer's preference.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so we kind of talked about uh that before, and also like assuming that you could just ask your friends and family, though those kinds of things, not getting feedback from from the right places.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that's um that's more common than we'd like to admit, because I think we all think that we have pretty good taste or understanding of the market.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think this is particularly um common in the creative space, right?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think people who are innately creative, they they kind of think that they've they've got the right approach to things.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't want to, you know, I'm not trying to bash on them, but like um we've heard the concern that uh from some creative folks that we're worried about testing because we feel like it's gonna be stifling.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: And the position that we have actually is that it's the opposite because it allows you to test a wider range of creative directions um and get that feedback as opposed to kind of feeling like you're narrowly within like that defined brand.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, we actually had an interesting conversation with the manager experiments uh product manager at Amazon Accelerate last year, and he was telling us that one of the issues that they see with manager experiments is that people tend to run experiments that are too conservative, right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because by definition, you're loving running a live A-B test, one of them is gonna lose, you're losing money on one of them.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and who wants to lose money just to gather data, right?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: So, but what we found, uh and and so a lot of times like it would take weeks and weeks and maybe not even get to statistical significance.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but what we found was that when people use PicFood to try a lot of different creative directions and actually feel validated because they tested against their competition, then when they go run their manager experiments with a much more aggressive design, it you know, it finishes within a couple weeks and it gets its you know statistical uh significance uh much faster because now they can confidently run that A-B test, and that's the same with packaging, right?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: So now you can more confidently say, like, hey, let's, you know, we're always very conservative with like this beige color.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we should try black, maybe we should go with pink, and but you're not gonna you don't want to just try that.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: You don't want to just like do a run of packaging and be like, that's what we're doing.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like you want to get some feedback, right?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like, does this feel on brand?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like, would you still buy these dog wipes or these baby wipes if they were, you know, if they were black colored or whatever it is, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like you want to get that feedback earlier.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I what I like about that, I think that also why we use it on the agency side is like the degree of confidence you can recommend changes.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll say, like, you know, typically we hold monthly strategy calls, and that's where we'll present the results of some of our tests.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh boy, if I could describe their faces when they see stuff, because sometimes the the significance, like sometimes it's like it blows it out of the water, and it's like this small change could lead to big results, and then we double down and we put that uh into manager experiments.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd say more often than not, the data we get in PicFu is uh aligns with the results we'll end up seeing on Amazon.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I I don't know if there's a data confidence is like the correct terminology, but we we definitely see that on our end, and I'm sure you see it on on your side with you know the variety of brands and yeah and challenges running through packaging and all those other uh tests you see on your website.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: I guess the uh going back to the original question, uh, one other other other mistake that people make is um kind of ignoring a thumbnail test, so kind of like a squint test.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: And uh because a lot of times you're designing something and it's like really big, you're seeing like the high-fi version of it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and of course, like it looks amazing, but then you know it's only gonna be like a hundred pixels tall a lot of times.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes you'll just see like very small print, and which may be fine for when you're holding the packaging, yeah.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: But you also, like we said, want to make it as useful as a billboard.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: And can you make the font bigger?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe it'll look kind of ridiculous when you have the product in your hand, but it's gonna be a lot more useful um on online marketplaces, even if you go into retail, honestly, like if you could have the wording and the packaging bigger, if it's gonna be on a shelf, you're gonna draw people's eyes as they're walking by or walking across the aisle.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so you really need to think about like how how legible it is from from a distance or from a very small uh form factor.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good insight, too.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I um I got to listen to John uh speak about testing at one of the events we went to, he was the speaker, and something I took away from it that I'd love for you to elaborate on, but I guess it's specifically with thumbnail, do you have like you said it was like an eighth of a second?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like the time you have to make an impression before somebody scrolls past is like it is super.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then he did this weird thing where it was like uh I showed you something for it was like two seconds and took it away and it's like, what do you remember?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like I I didn't remember that much to be honest with you.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: But can you share, uh, can you dive a little deeper on like I guess a little bit about the psychology behind it for anybody who's considering testing thumbnails or currently doing some beta testing?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I think I think the the key with the that that kind of recall test is is you're trying to um you're trying to kind of like shake it up for them, like or or I, you know, put something in front of them that um they latch on to mentally, right?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: So um another example here is not necessarily for packaging, perhaps, but for main imagery where um testing something as you know, you may not think about like the dog that goes on like a pet product, yeah.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: But the the specific dog that you use actually makes a really big difference.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: And and we've seen a lot of different tests of this.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of times people will just choose, like, oh, this is my dog, so I'm gonna put my dog in it.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but like maybe that dog doesn't test well.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: But like, you know, if you use like a very interesting looking dog, then maybe if you did that two-second test, people be like, Oh, I remember one of the products like had like this really interesting dog, and it was sitting on like this mat in the car or something, if that's what you're trying to sell.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, that could be the thing that hooks them, right?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so you're just trying to um draw connections for with people like very, very quickly, uh, so they can draw that uh mental connection.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe it's the dog, maybe it's a certain color, maybe it's the orange bottle.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, if you were just to look at it and be like, oh, I don't remember, but one of them had an orange bottle, right?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, what are what is the thing that they're gonna take away from?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: And even if you decide to do the same color palette, maybe it's a different, you know, package shape or a different font, so something that's gonna stand out.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, the dog thing is I'm we work with a bunch of pet brands, and I can't tell you how many times it's like the same brown little fluffy dog.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And what kills me, it's like uh small, medium, large, and it's all the same cute puppy and the main image.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I get it, you know, cute puppies sell.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, but that's a really interesting insight.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'll have to have the team run some tests.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but for brands on a budget, like when is the right time to start testing packaging and how much should they invest?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, like you mentioned the thrust.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Brand that they took over.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, probably version one was an MVP, and then they, you know, this thing had legs, so they decided to invest and actually start cleaning it up and making it more presentable.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any insights on how soon you should start?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is this like pre-launch or any insights you could share with some of our uh brands that may be considering launching products, whether they're existing or new to market?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, ideal if it's packaging, ideally from the very beginning.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you don't want to have to go through a redesign and change out the packaging.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so when we were talking, talking to Mallory uh Thrassio, who's the creative director, she was saying that um the redesign was going to cost them$50,000 in in terms of like you know, redoing the packaging and kind of like changing all the you know, market materials and all that kind of stuff.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: So it was a big investment that they wanted to make sure that they got right.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um so pre-testing all these designs, because you the nice thing about packaging design is you don't have to have the actual packaging printed yet, right?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: This is all these are all um digital designs that you're testing.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: You can make very good 3D renders now.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: So the earlier you're doing this before you've even printed any packaging is the right time to do it.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, all the other stuff you can, you know, main images, all that kind of stuff, you can optimize later, but packaging you kind of have to get right from the beginning.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, or if you if you know you're gonna go through a redesign, like that's that's also the right time to do it.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: And it honestly doesn't take take that much money to run a few iterations of these tests.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: Probably like a few, I think they only spent a few hundred dollars on the number of tests that they ran.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, beautiful.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: And that helped de-risk and give them confidence in this fifty thousand dollar packaging change.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so you know, you're gonna spend a lot on packaging anyway.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: So, what's a few hundred dollars to get directionally get it correct?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's really and to your point, that's not you're not breaking the bank, and to come in with confidence makes a huge difference.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And kind of while we're talking about that, have you seen packaging evolve as brands scale from like a single channel to multi-channel?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, have you ever seen them use different packaging on maybe Amazon, Walmart, Shopify versus retail?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Or based on your experience, is it always consistent packaging no matter where um these products sell at as they begin to hit um economies of scale?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I I definitely I've seen that evolution where when they are smaller, obviously it's easier for them to just do the same packaging across all the different platforms.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it does seem like there's there is a meaningful difference between the buyers who shop on Amazon versus the buyers who shop on Walmart or even Target.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um it seems like there's uh you know, maybe Walmart, they're a little bit more value value-oriented, or maybe they're spending a little bit more time on it.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: So it does make sense to make sure to get feedback if you're gonna if you're gonna make that investment to do packaging variation to get that feedback specifically from those kinds of shoppers.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: And on PicFood, we do have different targeting for people who shop on Amazon versus Walmart versus Target.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: So you can get you can get that kind of feedback.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: And then even when you go to retail, you you do see uh much different variations in the packaging, right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: Because then you even have um forgot what they call it, but even like the the like the holders, like the packaging stands and those kinds of things are being designed as well, because those are essentially advertising pieces.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so um yeah, so there's there's um there's testing that needs to be done there, and then depending on where your store's gonna be, you know, where whether it's rural versus urban, you should also do some testing around uh those kinds of segmentations because um you know we've even seen differences where um like package quantity, like the the quantity that people are looking to buy, and then also the packaging that they respond to differ by oh, people who tend to you know live in smaller dwellings versus like people who have homes, right?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's kind of like the like, oh well, I don't want like a giant pack of stuff, and maybe my value prop, what what's important to me about a product isn't necessarily the quantity or the value, but like the quality, and it could be different for you know um a different community of people.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really interesting too.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we uh we work with some uh major retail brands, and I noticed that um what I sold on Amazon and what I got delivered from Amazon versus what I saw in Walmart or Target.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it it's subtle differences, but you're right.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like these big brands, they understand that there's a certain demographic and socioeconomic condition that attracts these types of shoppers, and that you know that it wasn't drastically different, but it was enough for me to notice.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting that you you kind of see the same thing as brands are are testing these different packaging and it goes to show you how well you need to know your shopper uh and you know their their uh their appetite for or their value proposition.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think now that it it it's becoming easier, you know, not only to make product, but also print more unique packaging.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, you even see people doing things more annual refreshes or even seasonal refreshes, uh, you're seeing greater variety of flavor and quantity uh variations as well, so that you can tailor all these different kinds of hypermarkets.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's you know, that that seems like a trend that's only growing, and that that leads to even more testing, right?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because you're you need to get it right if you're gonna be that specific.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just toilet paper anymore, right?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like you know, maybe it's uh you know, especially in the in the snackable goods, right?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like it it's getting very hyper-focused.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: It is too.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, the the what does it say?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: The riches are in the niches of being hyper-focused and different is uh it's a it's an advan, it's uh it's an advantage, and uh and good brands are able to kind of capitalize on that.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have one more question before we jump into PicFu.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this has been really interesting so far.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we have like a lot of brands that expand globally, and we also bring brands from offshore onshore.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, do you have any advice for some of these global brands that are balancing localizing packaging needs with a consistent brand identity?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, interesting.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, that's a difficult one.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely as they're the first consideration as you're expanding is to make sure that the branding resonates.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because sometimes you actually have to do a branding change depending on where you're going.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: It could be because of the uh the name you know translates poorly or sounds sounds offensive in in the native language, um, or even just like the logo or like you know, the the kind of like the brand theme or or voice is doesn't resonate either, right?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: Is maybe if it's a if it's the very loud brand but it's a very uh reserved culture, like that may not go over well.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the the first thing is always making sure that the brand itself is going to resonate.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um but then yeah, I think the interesting thing is not only are you having to do product validation, but also the packaging and the um marketing material validation to make sure that how you're communicating it uh is going to resonate.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I think to keep the brand consistency, um, I think that's a a bigger strategic question around, you know, if we're going into this country, are we going to maintain this exact same brand voice, brand colors even?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like a lot of times it can be quite different.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and especially if you're gonna partner with like a you know a local a local company to to either potentially license or redistribute, you know, I think those factors have to be considered.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um but yeah, I've I've seen more mistakes from not gathering any feedback at all.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: So as long as you're as long as you're factoring all of these things in, I I I think you'll have success in in uh launching into different countries.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's solid advice too.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I know we've seen it in the US where uh you'll be shopping around for products and sometimes when it comes from offshore the English translation.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I I also find that uh Amazon specifically, that's where we do a lot of work, uh the how they localize things automatically don't always really resonate, or it's not it doesn't translate well.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I think which is why you want to do it yourself to make sure that the auto auto-translate doesn't mess it up.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: The the one caveat I'll I'll put to that is that um you got to know your audience because sometimes it's better to look more authentic.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and so you know, I remember John Aspinall was talking to um a seller from Korea, and they were you know bringing beauty products over, and they were actually thinking about rebranding it with some like American sounding thing.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: And John was like, no, no, no, like we want the Korean beauty products, and so we want them to look Korean and to sound Korean, yeah.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, don't make the mistake of like trying to uh assimilate your product too much, right?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because maybe the value is that you're coming, you know, from a particular country or or area that's known for producing that good, those goods, and so you want to keep some of that that identity, but just make it you know communicated and accessible in the target audience.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a lot of there's a lot of lines to to tiptoe around.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we're only touching on the surface, but obviously to your point, there's a lot to it.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I don't envy any brand that has to go through it, but you know, that's where the opportunity is.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's pretty exciting.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's dive into PicFu.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to just dive a little deeper specifically into your software and how you guys do business.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, with that being said, what makes PicFu different from traditional focus groups or post-launch surveys when it comes to package validation and then kind of all you offer to your uh the people who use your software?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so uh first of all, this is uh this is a target audience that you're gonna reach out to.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: This is not your uh your actual customer.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, a post-launch survey or you know, like a uh server that you include with your packaging would be directly to your your actual customers who paid for it.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: This would be kind of like a representation of your potential audience.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: So you could do targeting by different demographic or behavioral traits.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: So people who have dogs that drink coffee that are you know 18 to 24 could be who you think you have to target.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and then we're gonna go out and tap into um the same enterprise uh consumer panels that uh Procter and Gamble would use when they're doing longer form research, but we're gonna tap into that automatically using our proprietary software, and we're gonna make sure that we find that right human, uh, make sure that they're paying attention when they're doing it and that they are giving you a high quality uh response.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so we incentivize them to do that.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: So they're they're kind of you know trying to do a good job.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: They don't want to get rejected, otherwise, they're not gonna get that incentive.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's kind of part of our magic sauce is that we're gonna go find your target audience and we're gonna try to do it very quickly.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: So part of the magic is that it's very fast.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, typically if you're running 15, 15 to 50 people, um, it could be done within 30 minutes to an hour.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's a very magical experience.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and especially for agencies, like we've seen we've seen this a lot of times where the agency will work be sitting down with their client and they'll just start the poll like at the start of a meeting, you know, talking about the the new designs that they did, and by the you know, middle or the end of the meeting, they've already got a result showing showing why you know their their design is actually resonating much better with the target audience than maybe what the uh client originally had.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know that's always a sticking point where you know clients are tend to be uh kind of uh attached to their uh existing creatives.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Green, to your point uh with your comments earlier, like creative people can get uh when they have an idea, they get very uh very attached to it.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's hard to exactly uh and it's such a subjective thing.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I I will highlight, you know, what's really impressive about your software is the speed.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Before I knew about PicFu and other marketing agencies, like it would take you know at least 30 days to run some of these tests.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: The data was great, but your data is pretty so.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Can you dive into the the detail you guys go into?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just say for package testing, like um what are the different layers I would get if I'm running a split test against a competitor or I'm testing different variations?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I I guess stepping back a little bit to to your previous question also, yeah, it the best way to think about it is is like a digital focus group.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, one of the comparisons to um working with the traditional approach would be, you know, typically you work with a market research consultant or something like that.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: You you build out a survey, which is typically you know, many questions, right?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you're gonna go through the work of contacting these people, you want to try to get as many questions answered as possible.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: So that typically takes a long time to make sure you get all the questions right.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: Then there's a process of like, oh, let's go find the people.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so, so you know that that's a separate thing.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: Then you got to analyze the data, make sure it's all it's all clean and there's you know no junk in there.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's why it does take a long time.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: We try to make all of this into a very um self-serve package and and kind of 80-20 deliver the value.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, maybe the it's gonna be more exhaustive if you go with the the market research consultant approach, but we think that we can deliver you 80% of the value at a much quicker um and more affordable cost um in this approach.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: So, to your question about the packaging, um, the way that we set it up is typically um these preference tests uh is is what we like to call it.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, you would put up your your image design against your uh your other image design or against your competitors.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: You ask a simple question, if you're buying baby wipes, which one would you prefer?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: And our uh audience is going to first, they're going to uh choose which one they like or rank them if there's multiple.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: So they'll you know rank it, you know, one, two, three, four, five, if there's five of them.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: Then they're gonna give a written explanation why, um, which is required, and then demographic information.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so um the written explanation is actually where you're gonna get the most interesting insight.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, it's interesting to see what wins, but you kind of want to know why it wins, and then also why some of the other ones lost, because maybe that one was yours and you want to make improvements to it.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_03: So um I always say that you know, people they they come for the uh the the the quantitative, but they stay for the qualitative, right?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they think they just want to know the winner, but it's actually they find that it's more important to understand the why.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and also I think it's important to note that you don't always have to you don't always have to go with the winner, right?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: This is these are just data points.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: You're still the decision maker.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: We're trying to provide you as much data as possible.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why those written explanations and the demographic information is important because you may read through and say, well, these five people seem like, you know, out of all of them, yeah, they were kind broadly our target audience, but like the way they talk about the product is really who we're trying to go after.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: And they, you know, they've resonated with this one that maybe lost or something like that, right?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's up to you to decide.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think that's an important distinction because people I think feel compelled to just blindly follow the quantitative, and that's that's not what we're trying to do here.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense too.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: And having just done the website with the team, the feedback we got on the whys is is all things we didn't consider.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like it's nice having somebody outside of friends and family in the organization to come in and be like, that looks like a stock image, that's not real, you know.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: This it's just the colors don't go, and you're like, wow, I you know, I never really considered that.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then yeah, as we evolved it, it just, you know, our end product is due to launch soon, and it's it's gorgeous.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I can a lot of that's due to the information we got from you guys.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my last question before I jump on to like the future of e-commerce, which is a tradition here.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to talk about onboarding, being the agency space and the service space.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you guys are uh, I guess, more of a SaaS platform, but can you talk about so we have some listeners who are interested in trying out PicFoo?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what does it look like to sign up?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Do they get any support?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how how do you work with your customers?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so we try to make it as self-service possible.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: So it's always free to create an account.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, when you create an account, you ask you all answer a few questions about yourself so that we can tailor the experience.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: And then you actually get a free onboarding poll.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: So we want everyone who comes to experience that magical aha moment of actual humans responding to their thing because it's one thing to see an example or for me to talk about it.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: But when you put up your logo or your website or your product and actually start having humans give you feedback on it, then I think it kind of clicks for you.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I definitely recommend everyone just going and trying it for free.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, sign up.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: And then we do have a bunch of templates.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: So if you don't know where to start, you're not sure how to phrase a question.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: We have different templates for common things like packaging tests, or maybe you just want to get open-ended feedback on a on an image or packaging.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: We have a click test um template, so it'll generate a heat map.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so we have a lot of those templates.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if that's not good enough for you, uh, you could always schedule time with our customer success team where actual human customer success um folk will hop on a call with you.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: They could help strategize with you know a campaign that you're working on.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm trying to do this, you know, what series of tests should I run?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: How should I phrase the questions?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: So either way you want to do it, whether you want to self-serve it or you wanna you want to chat with someone, we we can handle it both ways.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing too.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we uh we we do the self-service, it's very intuitive.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: But we did have one of your customer success reps actually walk through our entire team on how to use it.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: We got some really good insights that we probably that we actually apply to this day that uh that we didn't pick up right away.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it definitely um you have a very knowledgeable team.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: So very, very cool.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh on that note, Justin, I'm gonna ask you to pull out your crystal ball and predict the future.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if it does come true, you heard it here first.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, as platforms like Amazon and Walmart, they they become more competitive.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: What role do you think packaging will play in standing out in the next couple years as um as technology, as AI becomes more innovative and it becomes, to your point, a lot easier to kind of uh shift out of packaging and try new things?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um I guess it kind of touching on what we were talking about earlier.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think it'll just continue to get more hyper specific and personalized, kind of like how websites are nowadays or our expectations with with uh experiences based on AI, like you kind of expect like a more personalized touch to um you know exactly what you want.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I think packaging is gonna start evolving towards that where like you know, maybe I don't want like you only sold it in threes and twelves before, but like I want it in five.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and maybe the packaging is gonna speak to me exactly like that.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe there's gonna be more print-on-demand packaging, even you know, like I don't know if Amazon will get into this, but like maybe we're gonna start seeing digital, much more digitally rendered packaging, and then like much more configurable and tailored to our requests and uh in our you know personal buying preferences.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: And then when we get it, it actually is what we what we thought we bought, right?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it was maybe just printed on demand just for me.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that I think is a feasible feature.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, probably not too far away.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: So like there may not even be a need to you know do these big packaging runs to start if we're just like you know, shipping off like the raw product that can be recombined and you know they can you know do digital packaging, I think that would be pretty interesting, actually.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um would be, and I think it would really improve the buying experience.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hands down.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh really interesting insight.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I have data we ran probably through your system, but like if I have the search term that's like product oriented on the packaging, it leads to better click-through rates.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: So just goes to show you like man, if the if that becomes a real thing where you can swap it up that quick, that would be insane.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like if it you know you're searching for very big dog wipes, and that's like what was on the packaging.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, oh, of course I need very big dog wipes.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, when you when you get it from Amazon, it's like, oh, it says very big dog wipes.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what I was looking for.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hey, Justin, this was awesome, man.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on the show.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: I personally learned a lot just about how to think about packaging, the branding.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: We even talked a little bit about international shipping and kind of some of the uh the nuances with that.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: We talked a lot about PicFu and the value of split testing and going in with data confidence.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: With that being said, where can our audience find you?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: If and do you have anything in the works that you'd like to share?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, they they can find me on LinkedIn.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm pretty active there if they want to connect with me.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: Otherwise, just come to PicFu, uh, check it out, sign up for free, reach out to the team if you have any questions.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, yeah, we actually have quite a bit of product updates coming down the pipeline.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: I won't spoil it now, but there's there's going to be a lot of changes and updates to uh you know the surveying capabilities.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so you know, maybe stay tuned in a few months for for that kind of announcement.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: But uh yeah, and then I think we've got a special offer uh for your audience if they want to try it, if they want to pay for a poll, there's 50% off using the coupon giants.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I know you'll put it in the description below.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Justin.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: And just so everybody knows in our audience, we'll have the link to the website.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: We'll have Justin's LinkedIn information, and we'll also have uh the promo code Giants, but it'll be linked there in the show notes down below.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: Once again, Justin, thanks so much for joining us, and we'll catch you next time on Selling on Giants.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: That wraps up today's episode of Selling on Giants.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: A big thank you to Justin Chen from PicFoo for sharing why packaging is one of the most important yet overlooked drivers for e-commerce success.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to take the guesswork out of packaging and make better product decisions with real consumer feedback, head over to pickfoo.com.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Link is in the notes below.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: For selling on Giants listeners, use the code Giants to get 50% off your first poll.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: G-I-A-N-T-S Giants.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you got value from today's conversation, make sure to follow, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you're listening.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: It helps more operators discover the show and join us in these tactical conversations.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on Selling On Giants.