Latest / Ready To Drink Podcast / Brand Building Over Founder Story: Growth Strategies | Carly Osman Holme, Founder of Sprowt

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Brand Building Over Founder Story: Growth Strategies | Carly Osman Holme, Founder of Sprowt · Ready To Drink Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm Carly.
0:00
SPEAKER_00: I am the founder of two businesses, which one is called Sprout, and it works with um, I suppose businesses that are going from niche to mainstream, when they're going from that got product market fit and they're really looking to step up and also legacy brands when they're broken and they need to come back and still figure out their foundations and actually what they're trying to say to customers.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: So it's the same kind of work but at different life stages.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm building Frankie, which is an on-demand marketing brain for when your actual brain is fried, because I kept seeing the same challenge again and again with early stage businesses that they just didn't have access to strategic marketing.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: And that meant that they were going off on various tangents, trying to do all of the thing, create more stuff, but it wasn't actually moving the data from them.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: So my stance is all around how can you build propositions that get consumers to say yes.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's where I start and end everything.
0:53
SPEAKER_02: That's I love the the way we're gonna, I can see this conversation is gonna go because a lot of times we get startups in here and things like that.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: And then other times we'll get established businesses, but and let's say the legacy businesses, but nobody that's talked about what that means when you're legacy and not too big, but you asked you may have detached from the connection to the to the consumer.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: So you you I assume then that's the bridge that you uh you fill in there.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: And I did get a chance.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: Usually I don't do any research, but when I saw the Frankie part in there, I was like, I saw in your when you signed up, I was like, what is that?
1:24
SPEAKER_02: And then I looked it up on your uh LinkedIn and phenomenal idea.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, because I do it all day long as well.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: And every once in a while you just need that little nugget to let it kind of to get you started down the next path and things like that.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: So that's a that's awesome.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: Talk a little bit about what it is and and kind of what what the design of it is and kind of how a founder or anybody in the business might use Frankie to kind of help them kind of progress along in the marketing and branding.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: So Frankie helps you think better because I think we're living in a world now where AI is everywhere.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: So there is absolutely no shortage of information.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: So 10, 15 years ago, it would have been, shit, I don't know.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Can I swear?
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh yeah, definitely.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: So I'm they're going, shit, I don't actually know what to do.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't really understand what marketing is.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: But now we're in a world where information is everywhere.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: People are talking about, oh, you need a podcast, you need this, you need this.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: So founders are absolutely drowning information.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: There are so many shoulds.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: But what Frankie does is get you to take a step back and kind of strategically think about the business.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: So it asks you to really start with your market trends.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: What's the gap in the market that no one else is seeing?
2:30
SPEAKER_00: Where are you seeing round corners where everyone else isn't?
2:33
SPEAKER_00: Then also taking another step back, like who is your customer?
2:36
SPEAKER_00: And not a top line demographic.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't care if they're 24, 34, I don't care about that.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: What I care about is who they are at a soul level.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: Who are they?
2:45
SPEAKER_00: What are their meet needs, wants, desires, what's going to make them say yes, and what are their friction points and really getting them to spend some time on there.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: And then it's about building the proposition around that.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: So once you've got that netted, it's then how do you go to market in a way that is designed for both a core offering, but also to connect the brand with the consumer.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: So it's just about guiding you to think better and think smarter about your business rather than just jumping on tactics here, there, and everywhere.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: Over the past 20 years, like I've seen, I'm sure you've seen the same thing as well, is we've gone from, you know, it's one thing to have a great looking can or bottle or whatever package format.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: It's another to have a great flashy story.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: But there's a there's a really a third and multiple other elements now that's more complicated and more onion layers than it than it was before.
3:32
SPEAKER_02: But I think that a lot of what I also am driving with this podcast format is the human connection.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: And and a lot of times like these episodes do get emotional and they do, and I've and they're complete strangers to me uh for the hour that I spend, like like you and I right now.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: But I think that's the reason I'm kind of going that direction with it because that's where I see the consumer once as well.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: The consumer wants to know there's a human being behind that brand that is vulnerable and that has shared experiences with them so that they can support in a certain way.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: I know in legacy brands it still works as an impulse buy and it's kind of some pieces automated, but the ones that are succeeding, I see in expanding, they're the ones that are connecting directly to the consumer in a very unique and customized way as much as possible.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: I agree to a degree with that.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: And I agree from the emotional standpoint, and I think people, 95% of our decisions are made emotionally.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: So is you've got to connect with me as a human.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna give you an example of a drink span, not alcohol, in a second that I did it.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: But I also think we're in a weird time where this founder narrative has become this obsession.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: But for me, a founder narrative is a tactic and it's part of many tools that you can use.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: But I think so many brands are getting so caught up with it that I've got to have a founder story behind it.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: No, you don't, because ultimately you've got to connect with a consumer, and the consumer sometimes might connect with your story if it holds a mirror up to theirs.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: But most of the time, I don't care that you went and did this thing and you've created this brand.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: I care about more.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Is this going to satisfy my need, want, desire right now?
5:03
SPEAKER_00: And I but then going back to the emotional standpoint, I'll talk about a brand that I launched in Australia.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: I lived in Australia for 10 years, and I launched a brand called Maximus, which was an isotonic sports drink.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: And we were going head to head with PowerAid and Gatorade.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: So very much looking at the codes of the category.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: And what we saw was most sports drinks were high performance, go stronger for longer, but we found that uh 60% of sports drinks were drunk when people were hungover, or they were just thirsty on a building site when they were kind of slogging these things down.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: So we built the whole proposition of the brand to be about go big, go stronger, just talking about hangovers, talking about that moment of actual need.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: And we grew it to 18% market share in three years because we were so ruthless about going, this is the customer, this is the need we deliver on, and we're just gonna go hell for leather, really focusing on that.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: And we had just so much fun.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: There was no founder story in any of that.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: But what we did is create content that people went, oh my God, that's me.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I see myself in that.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: And that's, I think, how you win.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: It's not talking at customers, it's like talking with them, show them the life that they want, the desire, all of that stuff is where I believe the brands that will win should be doubling down on.
6:19
SPEAKER_02: I completely agree with you.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: And it's one of the things that obviously in this show we were very founder-focused and not as and a little bit product focused, but really the founder story.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: But I fully agree with you when an actual execution go-to-market activation, it is the brand, because I work in a portfolio world.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: I mean, when I was in the distribution world, I had 137 brands that I worked with.
6:38
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes the founder story did not matter, and it wouldn't matter today.
6:42
SPEAKER_02: And it is, it can be, you're right.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: If you lead to over-indexed into the founder story, then I hate to say it, but you get hit by a bus tomorrow, your company is going to have trouble pushing forward as opposed to a brand story, and also to understanding that brand story could be just the some specific product, too.
6:58
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be the company is the brand.
7:00
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes these products will overshadow their entire company with their success and connection to those consumers.
7:06
SPEAKER_02: So I appreciate the caveat you put in there as far as that goes, because that's true.
7:10
SPEAKER_02: And I fully agree with it as well.
7:11
SPEAKER_02: It's you have to there has to be a balance, but also there is times where it's not necessary, and the can or the bottle or whatever format it is can carry the company forward without any human beings.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I completely agree.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: Where do you oh go ahead?
7:23
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, but I do think people buy from people, so there needs to be that human connection in your content.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't need to be a founder.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
7:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and sometimes I worry about, I'll be honest, sometimes with the show, even I worry sometimes that we're not hitting the proper delta because we sometimes are so founder focused that I wonder right now, we're a very B2B focused uh format as far as the podcast goes.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: And I always wonder like, would a consume, what does a an everyday consumer feel like if they do cross over this show?
7:54
SPEAKER_02: Is it a daunting thing that they're not interested in learning about?
7:56
SPEAKER_02: Or is it something where they're like, yeah, I am interested a little bit to know how the sausage is made from these products that I enjoy every day?
8:02
SPEAKER_02: And that's a coin toss and a gamble that everybody has to make every day.
8:06
SPEAKER_02: I've lived my life in the Delta, so I appreciate everything you're saying from the fact of like everybody showed you what it is, and it's like, okay, that's what it is, but where is my hole in the in the line of scrimmage that I can run through and score the points?
8:17
SPEAKER_00: But I do think it's an interesting time where I'm personally seeing one of the market trends that I was seeing from Frankie, which made me go right now is the time, was so many people are setting up their own businesses.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: So many people have either leaving jobs because they're being pushed out, AI or whatever, restructured consolidation, or a lot of people, and I'm in my 40s, I call myself an accidental tech founder at 40, don't 41, don't really know how it happened, but here I am.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: But we're seeing people, especially women, go, I can't do this for another 20, 30 years of my life.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: There has to be a better way.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: I need to do it.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: So I'm seeing a lot of people at the moment get curious, and they're getting curious and starting to listen to business podcasts that they haven't before, with the view of I want to start something, but I don't know how to start it.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just gonna listen.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: But again, that comes with a double-edged sword because people want it, but then they're drowning information and that they don't know how to actually progress and move forward.
9:11
SPEAKER_02: No, that's exactly it.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: And then uh we talk about that a lot on here too, because I started this business when I was 23 years old and I knew nothing of what I was doing other than Inc.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: magazine, entrepreneur magazine, and all those fast company and all the subscriptions, and I had all the glossy pages.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: And when I got into it, I realized really quickly, coming from a blue-collar family and and living on student loans and things like that, the bootstrapping part was the chat was the challenge that everybody kind of missed.
9:39
SPEAKER_02: And I missed it as well because I read the glossy pages and I thought it was gonna all work and everything like that.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: And you know, when you ride the roller coaster of entrepreneurship, the the piece, and I know it's overstated, but it's the moments, it's not just the moments of success, but it's the moments of failure.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: And I I don't mean we made a mistake.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean I'm owning, I own it on this show all the time.
9:59
SPEAKER_02: There are moments of absolute failure, bank account cleared.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: How am I gonna make rent?
10:04
SPEAKER_02: Let alone how am I gonna pay all the contractors that I just brought in for this contractor, this project.
10:08
SPEAKER_02: Those are the times where I feel like this for our show and for what you're talking about as well, I want that to be out there for for those people that are curious, because the last thing I want is anybody to go mortgage their home and their family without knowing all of the risks and parameters involved and not be, I call it the American Idol syndrome, when they sing really well in the shower and in front of their family and friends, and then they go to auditions and they get tore apart.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: I don't I wanna I don't want to protect people in a bubble, and I know you don't either, but I like everybody to have all the tools and their kids to know what they're walking into battle with, you know?
10:40
SPEAKER_00: I totally agree.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think we're in a again, a weird place at the moment where there is the shiny narrative of entrepreneurialism and founder.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: Like everyone wants to be a founder, but no one actually talks about how lonely it is, how hard it is, how sometimes when you're going, I I I just don't know what I don't know where this cut first customer is gonna come from, I don't know who's gonna say yes, what can I do?
11:04
SPEAKER_00: And it's the small, and I don't particularly like the very, very early stages of business because it's freaking hard.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: You've just got to show up again and again and again and do the small things, and it's boring and it's dull and it's not exciting.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: The exciting thing comes later when you've got some cash and you can create amazing things, but no one really talks about that grind.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: And part of what I'm trying to do with Frankie is really showcase what that looks like.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: It is the showing up, it is posting on Reddit, it's doing the one-to-one conversations again and again, showing up at stalls, being there, because that's how you build those early stage companies, and there's no way to fast track or change it, unfortunately.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: No, and it's just the reality.
11:47
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
11:47
SPEAKER_02: And and um, and something that that I'm a big advocate of is no matter how long you are in the founder business, nothing is should ever be below you.
11:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:55
SPEAKER_02: And I think that there's a piece where even if you grow up to be one of the largest brands and you're a legacy brand, nothing beats, like you just mentioned, doing an in-person thing.
12:03
SPEAKER_02: Like I still uh about it three weeks ago, I'm 18 years into this, and I'll still stand in a parking lot at a retailer and do a customer appreciation party.
12:11
SPEAKER_02: I'll still go on a Friday from four to six with the brands I represent on the day job, quote unquote, which is also part of the same business.
12:17
SPEAKER_02: We do strategy and market development work, and I still go out.
12:20
SPEAKER_02: And I have contractors that work with me and teammates that go and do those, but I do it because there is nothing more valuable than being face to face with a consumer to hear what they say, but not only hear what they say, watch their body language when they try your product.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: That's the piece that we that we everybody's like, oh, they said this, they said this.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, no, I want to know did they cringe, did they smile, did their shoulders go down?
12:43
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm a very analytical person when it comes to physical behavior in people.
12:47
SPEAKER_02: And that was the biggest joy and that I still get to this day, even 20-some years into this as an industry, is is seeing the customer react to something new.
12:56
SPEAKER_02: And also on the flip side, when it's a bad reaction, I'm not afraid to give that reaction back to my client.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: And it's also interesting on the client end to see how they receive that negative information.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, I think you're rare.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't think, I don't think any stage of businesses, people are talking enough to customers.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: I see as founders, I think they're they're afraid of what they're gonna hear, so they avoid it.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: But also big legacy businesses, they never do it.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: They sit behind these kind of shiny walls where the customer is over there, we're here, or consumer, however you want to call them, the person going to consume the product is there.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: They're over here.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: But I got told years ago, and it was really early into my career, that the closer you can get to break down that wall, the better, the more likelihood you'll buy, and the people will actually say yes, because you need to be on that cold face so you really understand.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: And like you said, it's in the body language, it's but it's also the words around the problem that they say, and there's often that magic that someone will say something and you'll go, Oh, hang on a second, that contradicts what you've said before.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: Can we just prod and poke and dig a little bit deeper?
14:05
SPEAKER_00: And then suddenly you're seeing the problem from all the set the challenge and the opportunity from a completely different lens.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is where the gold lies.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: But too many people are afraid of doing it.
14:17
SPEAKER_02: Everybody, um, it's I try to I try to help people along with saying that cold calling it cold calling, code pitching, code anything like that in person is the best way to know whether or not you should scale your business.
14:30
unknown: Yeah.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: Because if you can't handle the feedback, you also know that if you're gonna be the leader of that business, you need to build a barrier between you and the consumer.
14:37
SPEAKER_02: And you better make sure that the barrier between you is actually analytical and is taking all that into consideration because everybody's personality is different.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: And I've learned the hard way many times uh working with different clients that cannot accept constructive criticism, even when it means a pivotal model shift in their business because it's not their original idea.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: And I think that the more times we try to make let entrepreneurs understand that you cannot control everything, especially.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can speak about beverage, you can speak about food, and I've done a bunch of different industries and work, and it's all the same.
15:12
SPEAKER_02: The consumer will always shift.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: It's how fast you step in front of them when they turn left, and then when they zig and you zag, it's not staying in your chair waiting for the next consumer to come through and flipping the TV on the recliner.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: And that's where I feel like sometimes uh a lot of people get that way because they're like, well, that's not what I signed up for.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, uh, I'll give an example in the hemp beverage industry right now.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: We're dealing with a lot with uh in the United States with the bands and everything like that impending in November, and a lot of people's businesses are completely in jeopardy at 100%.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: And it's very interesting when we talk to some people, and I have a lot of one-on-ones, I do 10 to 12 of these a week where I'm meeting founders one-on-one to gather information as well as to create the content for the show.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: The common theme and pattern that I'm seeing is there's some that understand the challenge that's ahead of you to save your business and they're rising to the occasion.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: They're finding advocacy, they're speaking their mind, they're going to their state senators, they're going to their their Congress in DC, and they're making their voice heard.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: And there's others that are very open that are just sitting on the sidelines waiting for the others to do that.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: And it's an interesting thing to watch, you know, you assume every founder is the same, but you realize even within the founder community, they might have had the energy to start the business, but I don't know sometimes if they have the energy to sustain the business.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: Because when this challenge is over, and especially in the beverage world, it's cutthroat.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: And when and just because there's a ban coming, when that ban's over, whether it's good or bad, a year from now there's gonna be another challenge.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: And are you gonna sit are you gonna sit on the sidelines again during that challenge, or are you gonna save your business and build your business and come from there?
16:46
SPEAKER_02: So I found that very interesting in in in the past couple of years that, and I'm not just picking on hemp, I dealt with it with craft beer as well.
16:53
SPEAKER_02: In the United States from 2010 to 2017, I worked with 30 different brands and it was the same.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: When there were challenges that came up, there were sidelines and there was pitcher's mounds.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and a couple first base players and a couple of outfit owners and stuff like that.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: But really, that part changed my perception of founders realizing that there are varying degrees within this world as well.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think you can spot them, and I think you can figure out actually which ones will succeed because I'm I've got a hypothesis that there's three common threads that make a really good founder.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: So that is resilience and it's focus and it's bias to action.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: So those three core things.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: So these founders are you get a no, and then it's the kind of going, okay, well, what now?
17:34
SPEAKER_00: Where do I change?
17:35
SPEAKER_00: Where do I pivot?
17:36
SPEAKER_00: Where do I go?
17:36
SPEAKER_00: And how do I get a yes?
17:38
SPEAKER_00: No doesn't mean no forever, it just means no right now.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: Then you've got the um the bias to action because, well, actually, let's talk about focus first.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: They are so single-minded around what they need to do.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: They're really good at saying, okay, shiny new stuff over here.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: That's nice, but I'm not gonna let it detract me from where I want to go and and have the steps I need to do.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: And then it's biased to action.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: So when they've said this is what I'm gonna do, they actually do it.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: And I think quite a lot of founders, they may have two out of three, but it's the founders that have got all three of them that I think then become those rocket ships because they're like, right, I'm gonna start thinking more with first principle thinking of going, okay, I need to get there.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't need to look in this linear thing.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna, I might zigzag all over the place, but I will figure out a way to get to where I want to go to.
18:27
SPEAKER_02: It's that and the and and the leaning in more to crowdsourcing concepts.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: And I think that we've come to a place where we lived a good deck couple decades of the gatekeeping world where every founder and business was very gatekeeping kept in in their secrets and the and everything like that.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: But I find that the more founders are sharing best practices now, the more successful it is as well.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: Because, like you said, go back to the loneliness of it.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: Let's be really honest.
18:55
SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you have a team of 50 people or 25 people or even five people, those five people that work for you don't necessarily think about all the same elements of the business as you.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: And I think even myself, sometimes with the contractors that I bring in for projects, I've gotten to a place, even this as long as I've been doing this, I'm just now realizing that I don't communicate enough detail sometimes.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: And it took me almost 20 years to realize that like some of the times where things didn't work out the way they should have worked out, I took responsibility because I went back in my head and played the transcripts in my brain.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Yeah, that was in my head because I'm the one that created the idea, but I didn't really communicate all of the intentions and angles and caveats that might have come into the process.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: I think that's I think someone once said it's like clarity, what are the five C's like clarity, context, crystal clear communication?
19:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but there's something around, but you you have to take responsibility for those.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: How do you present or how do you necessarily uh for your client base?
19:51
SPEAKER_02: I looked at your website and stuff like that.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: You have a wide range of clients as far as scale goes.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the reasons I was really excited to talk to you.
19:58
SPEAKER_02: How do you balance that each day?
20:00
SPEAKER_02: Because even for yourself, you can't present yourself in a linear way or operate in a linear way when you're dealing with different clients.
20:07
SPEAKER_02: Do you have to how do you pivot back and forth and stuff like that?
20:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm someone who thrives on variety and I get bored very easily.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: So I need the newness of different categories.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: So it's why my my career has been deliberately bored.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: So I at the moment I'm working with an ADHD company, I'm working with a peanut butter, I'm working with a um a liqueur company, I'm working with uh a perimenopause supplement and a few others.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: And they're all very different categories with and they're also very different life stages of the businesses, but it all they all have that same problem of they're a brand trying to connect with a consumer.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: And my stance is always been start with the consumer and then work upwards and then build propositions around that.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, so my context switch a lot, but there's also so many learnings and familiarity because people are people, it's irrespective of what um category you're working with, that you're still trying to connect with humans.
21:09
SPEAKER_02: It's I'm so happy you brought that up because that's a lot of time.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: I was just uh camping with my cousins uh uh this past weekend and our families and kids and everything like that.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: And my one cousin was like, Are you still doing that?
21:20
SPEAKER_02: You know, like one of those are you still doing that things where I'm running my business for 20 years?
21:24
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Yeah.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: And she she was her exact comment was you're always doing so many different things, and how is it all the same?
21:31
SPEAKER_02: And I think explaining that sometimes to people that might be nine to five focused and working for other things, it's hard because it looks like you're job jumping all the time.
21:39
SPEAKER_02: But that's exactly the same.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: I we think the same way.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: That's my common thread all the time.
21:43
SPEAKER_02: There was a book years ago, uh, I can't remember who wrote it, it was called Delivering Happiness.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: And it was about focusing on customers.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: I think it was Zap Host, I think it was uh the shoe company back in the day.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: And and it when that changed it changed a lot of the way that I perceived everything in the beverage space.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: And then it actually was was one of the reasons I.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Left the wholesale world because I felt like I was pigeonholed into just managing brands and pushing brands.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: And I wasn't helping them guide and curate the strategy in advance of the supply chain.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: And that's uh 2017, 20, or yeah, 2017 is when I left exclusively working for with distributors and then also working with distributors, brands, retailers, and getting the entire landscape.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: And that was one of the biggest things because uh there was different times in my portfolio where I had pickles, beef jerky, bloody merry mix, alcohol, non-alcoholic beer, and uh what else was it?
22:33
SPEAKER_02: Vodka, yeah.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: And it was and they were like, How do you sell all this?
22:36
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Well, I don't look at it as a bunch of different products, I look at it as I own a different category on the shelf when you walk into a liquor store.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: And they were like, Oh, okay.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, that's how I view my business.
22:47
SPEAKER_02: And the lens is if I'm the consumer, I want to touch them and every place that their lives go.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: And I always do that when I train sales directs.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: I train them when I walk in.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: I walk into a business uh business with them quickly and I say to them right off the bat, I call them and I'm like, all right, I'll turn around as we walk in five seconds.
23:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, all right, what's on tap?
23:04
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, What do you mean what's on tap?
23:05
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what's on tap.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: You don't know what's on tap yet?
23:07
SPEAKER_02: We're five seconds in and in this walk-in.
23:09
SPEAKER_02: And then they'll be like, okay, I'll be like, Well, what point of sale are they using?
23:12
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what point of sale they're using.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: All right, we'll look over there.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, why are we looking at all this stuff?
23:16
SPEAKER_02: I said, because that will show you their buying pattern, that will show you the type of category they're into.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: And then you, in the moment of the 32 different brands that we're carrying into this place, you can then prioritize and siphon within 10 to 15 seconds which brands you're gonna lead with because you're not gonna sit there and talk about all 32 brands.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: And that's every time I train new sales reps or even seasoned sales reps that have become order takers and want to become more brand builders.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: That exercise is so challenging for them, but it's also so rewarding when they get it.
23:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:46
SPEAKER_02: When they when they get it, when they can look in and like just with color, they get to the place where just the colors are gonna tell them the logos, they're gonna tell them the type of person that's gonna buy those products, then they know what types of products they can sell into those places.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: It's so interesting as you're talking, but I think this is the problem that businesses have.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: They jump into, and I'm just gonna connect some dots in some weird ways here, but they connect and they go straight to output.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: But what you're describing is like the diagnostic challenge, because you're going in and seeing, right, this is the status quo, how it everything is, this is this.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: So you're looking at the problem from a very different lens, but I don't think enough people think that.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: I think the tactic executional rather than actually let's take a helicopter view and step back and assess, and because you're talking there about incrementality and everything there.
24:34
SPEAKER_02: That's exactly it.
24:35
SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's all to the point of the cobwebs on the cobwebs on the fan and the cobweb and the dust on the air filter and the point of sale system is a big piece because a lot of these different mechanics, and there's a bunch, a million other things that I look at in a very snapshot moment, but it shows me what's a priority for them.
24:55
SPEAKER_02: And then that allows me to curate my pitch in the moment, but it is unique, and I I I don't like to sound egotistical about it, but it is true, and it also is something that it's because I'm scrappy.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: It's because I never had, I never, and it's this by no means is a victimhood statement.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: I want people to know that I'm proud of bootstrapping this business and having it thrive in into the 20 almost 20 years coming up.
25:17
SPEAKER_02: It is because I've looked at everything from a stacking resource standpoint where it's like, what can I repurpose and repurpose and repurpose?
25:25
SPEAKER_02: And what I what clicked one day was walking in and saying, Well, I hate to be the napkin salesman.
25:30
SPEAKER_02: And then somebody looked at me and said, Well, why is that?
25:33
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, because I'm just selling napkins.
25:35
SPEAKER_02: Like, there's no variety in how I can do it.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: So you would walk into a place, you sell your napkins, you walk out.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: A lot of times sales reps will walk in and they're selling whatever the the uh you know, their PFP, their incentive, whatever it is that's pushing it is what they're gonna lead with.
25:49
SPEAKER_02: And what they sometimes what you miss, and I did this myself, I'm not I'm not preaching from a high tower.
25:53
SPEAKER_02: I went through lots of trial and to get here.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: If you can connect with the priority of the direct buyer, not the not the market, not the industry, not the category, the person and understand what makes them tick, you can navigate them back to where you need to go from a from an incentive standpoint, but you got to get to the where they give you the time of day, and you you need to connect with them on that.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: So you need to take yourself out of yourself and see what is a priority to them.
26:21
SPEAKER_02: It actually means you are just a vessel at that point.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: You're just a vessel to the brand between the buyer and the brand.
26:27
SPEAKER_02: And if you don't build that bridge, you're just you're just you're just hot tucked uh you know a Huckleberry Finn with a raft and a and a stick, and you're just hoping that you survive the wrap what rapids with this person.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, I told this story the other day.
26:41
SPEAKER_02: One time my favorite uh buyer story was uh walking in, and people people don't realize too when you're walking with independent operators and not chains.
26:49
SPEAKER_02: Because sometimes it's not about the sale, it's about knowing what they want and what they need in that moment that you walked in and respecting the fact that that moment you walked in could be completely different than 17 minutes prior when the other sales rep walked in.
27:04
SPEAKER_02: And that's the fun of it.
27:05
SPEAKER_02: That's the fun of it all is like I find Joey in walking and go, okay, what am I gonna get?
27:09
SPEAKER_02: I got 17 taps, I got six over here, I got four loggers, I got a I got a monster energy drink over here, I got a Coke butt over here.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: Okay, this person shows me they're a legacy fan, but they maybe dip a little bit of craft, so I'm gonna leave it a legacy to match him, and then I'm gonna come back with a craft at the end to try to bring him some margin and everything, but know that he's a volume guy, so I gotta lead here.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: Nice.
27:28
SPEAKER_02: That's the that's the fun of it.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's when I left the wholesale world, it's because the fun of it, I'll be honest, and I and and those that those that work with me know this.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: The fun of brand building left the wholesale world and it became distribution only, and it became taking product A from point A to point B.
27:45
SPEAKER_02: And I and there's a valuable place for that, and I and we all need that and I respect it.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: But for me personally, there the story was gone, the brand building was gone, and there was no creativity.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: And I can't I can't work eight hours in one single day, let alone a whole week or years without any creativity or or situational, like you said, diversity and experience, you know?
28:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think, yeah, I agree with everything you said.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I also let's talk about this word creativity, because I actually think creativity is a secret weapon that if more brands tapped into it, um their futures would change.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I sound like a mystic meg type person with a crystal ball here, but I fundamentally believe that creativity is around problem solving and it's how you think in a different way.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: So I think people, when you say creativity, you jump to execution.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: But for me, it's around how do you look at a problem from a different way.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm gonna creatively join the dots and show them and demonstrate why I'm better.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's such an untapped skill that again, we are outsourcing to AI.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: We're outsourcing all of this.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: But I think the brands, again, that are gonna survive are the ones that double down on this and figure out a way to stand out in the page of slop and everything else.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: Are you seeing?
29:01
SPEAKER_02: I I see on your website some like looks like consumer activation type of experience, uh experiential marketing as well.
29:07
SPEAKER_02: Are you seeing an increase in engagement in those post-COVID now, or is it still a little hesitant as far as the public activation with consumers?
29:15
SPEAKER_00: It's big over in the UK.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: Um and basically for me, what I'm seeing is where people are very overwhelmed with the amount of time they're spending online.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: So they're actually craving more human experiences.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: So I'm proactively with my clients, really pushing those moments where you can get brand in hand but make it um deliver it in a way that adds value, has memorability, creates this incredible experience.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: So there's a brand that you definitely should check out.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you know the brand Botivo.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: I don't, but I'm gonna I'm gonna I gather in the training minutes.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: So they are um a non-alcoholic aperitif, and non-alcoholic drinks are having a moment over in the UK as more and more people are becoming kind of zebra drinkers or giving up altogether.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: But what they've gone is this is not just another alcoholic drink.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: They know from a consumer perspective, the people who are giving up drinking just don't want to have the fun and the occasion of drinking, they just don't want the alcohol.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: So they're really doubling down with this joy and they talk about this yellow happy hour.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: And they've created this activation which travels around the country where they have a piano and they have singers that come down to this piano and they have this just incredible spectacle.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: They actually had, is it Jeff Goldblum play on the piano outside the Royal Albert Hall last week and just a kind of a secret exclusive event?
30:38
SPEAKER_00: Turned out he was a customer who loved the brand, and then they somehow managed to shoehorn in and this kind of experience.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: But what I'm loving about them is they're using this brand in hand, create the moment and represent people when you should be drinking that occasion and how you should feel.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: I think just showing up again and again and again.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: So what I'm saying with brands is like, how can you create this one activation that you can lift and shift to different places that has the infusion of the personality of the brand, the occasion, all of that, and just do it in a joyful, memory, memorable way.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think gone in the day.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm not gonna say gone in the days because I see it time and time again, especially with uh big brands where they're like, take this drink, take this drink.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, no one cares about that.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna be memorable.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: For me, it's around you, especially when you're startup and scale up, you've got a limited budget.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: You've got you can't give away 20,000 skews of a drink or anything like these big brands can.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: So it's how can you do it in a way that people were gonna go, oh, that was lovely.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: That was lovely.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: That made me smile or gave me an emotional reaction.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: So I'm more likely to remember you.
31:44
SPEAKER_02: It's and and I want everybody that's watching and listening to to know that you don't have to overcomplicate that either.
31:50
SPEAKER_02: Uh, like we uh when I was in the wholesale world, we did samplings like crazy.
31:54
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we did 2,000 samplings a year.
31:56
SPEAKER_02: We had a team of 55 people that had day jobs, and then they did it on the side.
32:00
SPEAKER_02: And it was a cumbersome our operational process, but it was the experience that was there.
32:05
SPEAKER_02: And I think uh a couple weeks ago, that sampling I was telling you about that I was at, it was a customer appreciation party.
32:09
SPEAKER_02: My client, they're a vodka orange crush company, and they it's a one, it's I'm I'm the I'm the guy doing sales in one area, and then the founder's doing his sales in his home market, and that's it.
32:18
SPEAKER_02: And it's a very small operation.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: But he did one little thing different was he sent me when I went to pick up to the warehouse to pick up, he's like, I got some extra stuff for you for this event.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: He's like, and it was a fake tree, a fake orange tree.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: So it's an orange, a vodka orange crush, and it's a fake orange tree.
32:32
SPEAKER_02: And I put it on the table and I was like, all right, Nick, what do we got going on here?
32:35
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
32:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, how's this gonna work?
32:37
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm like, think I wanted to be more experiential and inviting rather than, like you said, just standing there on a bootstrap budget handing out six cups of samples all day long.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: That tree, I don't know how much money he spent on it, probably you know, 10 bucks, maybe five bucks.
32:50
SPEAKER_02: That tree brought in more people than anything else because it stood out as like as something and it brought in people that were curious if it was real.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: I had out of 150 people that came, I had 25 people try to buy it from me.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: And I had, you know, I and I think like while we can do great, we can do everything, and that's what I want to say is is like don't limit, don't limit yourself to I have to be big or I have to be small.
33:13
SPEAKER_02: It's and like you said, it's it can be subtle little things that evoke an emotional connection that expands the conversation outside of the taste.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh a hundred percent.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: And I and just to echo that, so I um work with a perimenopause brand and we are so early stage.
33:29
SPEAKER_02: But I'm working on one right now, so I want to hear this conversation right now.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: We're we're yeah, we're getting ready to launch in a couple weeks.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: For me, it was all around like the customer I called were life enthusiastics, life enthusiasts.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: So they were the same people as they were at 27, as they are at 45.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: They just happened to be perimenopausal.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: So perimenopause is happening to them.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: So they are still the women who would dance on a bar, who will go out with friends, want to travel the world and have an experience, like an amazing life.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, so we what we did is bought a giant glitter ball and I bought a load of um tinsel stuff from Target or Amazon Prime, got it sent, it probably cost me about 50 quid to kit out this thing.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: I then created some signs which were um things like like hornier than I've ever been in my life, but can't stand the sound of my husband breathing.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: So things that I knew these women were saying again and again.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: We held them on, we paused and tuned, and we were flooded with women who were going, Oh my gosh, that's so funny.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: I see myself, but we got we, I think we got about 200 women at this small event to sample.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: And that for me is in a supplement space where trial and skepticism is so high.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: That for me was a massive success.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: And those people would have probably seen the brand before.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: We were doing quite a lot of advertising at the time and they would have gone, yeah, I like the sound of that, but I'm not sure.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: But this allowed them to come into our brand world, experience it, talk to us if they wanted.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: And then we'd now have an advocate of women who were championing us, saying our names in WhatsApp groups with their friends.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: So we win that way.
35:01
SPEAKER_02: I think it's uh it's it what you just said about the I the the when they when they made people make that comment where they're like, I see myself in that, that's it.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's that's the golden ticket is when you your brand can be a mirror to your consumer, you're in.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: Like I now have a criteria for any campaigns that I work on that I need DMs from people going, you I feel like you're in my head.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: And when I've done that, I've won.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: So we did a campaign again for a similar period for the same perimenopause company, around um the 3 a.m.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: like night anxiety panic attacks.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: I had so many women come off the back of me and go, You've just described how I live every single night.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: And you don't get there by accident.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: You get there by spending so much time with the consumer so you understand them intimately.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: What are they caring about?
35:53
SPEAKER_00: Like I I talk to the whatever category I'm working with, customers day in, day out.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: I want to hear the words they're using.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: It's not just every now and then, oh, let's put on a focus group.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: It's continuous.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm constantly on Reddit reading everything I can because that's the layer and the richness.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Because I do think, and I'm just going to tangent here massively, but I do think the brands of tomorrow are the ones that are going to have layers.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's not just I'm going to push this message.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be something over here that adds to something over there.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: It's experience, it's depth, it's something more than just the transactional products.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: And in order to create that, you really need to understand the world of the customers and then build things accordingly for that.
36:33
SPEAKER_02: It's you nailed my business model, is uh in the past couple of years, I call it an ecosystem now.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: Nice.
36:39
SPEAKER_02: Is I uh I had a uh a couple of years ago, I was in Florida in the in the beach, and I was just sitting in the beach, probably two, three feet of water, and I'm watching this crab go between my legs, and then I'm watching this fish go by and this larger fish go by and all this stuff.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: And I had this moment, call it spiritual, cult, woo-woo, magical, mystical, whatever.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: But I had this moment where I was like, that's it.
37:04
SPEAKER_02: It's not just the billboard, it's not the radio ad.
37:06
SPEAKER_02: It's how do they intertwine with each other and how does it grow?
37:09
SPEAKER_02: And then that was where it birthed, you know, the podcast stuff and everything like that to do that.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: And what we try to help brands with, exactly like you just said, too, is what's ironic is it wasn't even the product.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, that consumer, let's say, that caught that sign and that and that's what brought them in.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't the product.
37:26
SPEAKER_02: The product was the hook at the end, the but the other part was the lead and was the sign.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: And when you get to the place as a founder or anybody in this industry, whether you're a founder or not, when you realize not always, it's not always the product.
37:39
SPEAKER_02: And it's it's what what is the bridge to the product?
37:42
SPEAKER_02: Because the product is not a linear path to the consumer all the all the time.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: Now, sometimes, yes, it might be drawn in because of the can on the shelf or whatever it is, but a majority of time it's something, some ancillary thing within the ecosystem that kind of redirected your focus back to the product.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: I think that's even more important than people realize because I think we have a bias for what we think the consumer cares about versus what they actually care about.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: So I spend a lot of my time talking to founders about saying, no one cares that you've got 20 grams of protein, no one cares that you've got three times more CBD, no one cares about this, this, and this.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: What they care about is is that product gonna address this need?
38:19
SPEAKER_00: Is this product gonna address what I'm feeling right now where I'm I'm full of anxiety?
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Is this gonna address X, Y, and Z?
38:27
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what more people need to do is like switch that stop.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: And I I call it the give a fuck factor.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: Is your customer really gonna give a fuck about this?
38:36
SPEAKER_00: Or are you just talking to yourself based on what you think you should be rather than what they're gonna care about?
38:42
SPEAKER_02: So the last couple of years, uh, I don't think I've shared this yet on this episode, but I'm three and a half years sober from alcohol.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: And even though I I sell it, yeah, exactly.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
38:51
SPEAKER_02: Same amount of time and everything?
38:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm December 23 years ago, 21, maybe?
38:57
SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: Mine was uh yeah, December 2022.
39:00
SPEAKER_02: That'll be four years in December, uh right after Christmas.
39:03
SPEAKER_02: I had my rock bottom and that was it.
39:05
SPEAKER_02: And uh, and what I what I say a lot of times to myself is I have to remind myself that I sell alcohol and alcohol's in my car all the time.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not I've gotten to a place like I took a year off and went to other industries and came back so that I could get to a place where I could see it as a commodity and a product and not something I needed.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: But long story short is with that change in that mindset, I've had to study the alcohol consumer where I haven't had to before.
39:30
SPEAKER_02: And that's been such a unique place to like to be like, okay, I'm not, I have to accept that I don't know what goes through their head at 10 a.m.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: anymore.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: Like because I know what, and even when I was selling it and I was a consumer of it, I realized that I was doing the extreme version of it.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: So that's like, and I mean if you've been in the industry and I was in the alcohol industry, it's like it's it's not like yes, I it got out of control, but it was really because it's part of the industry.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: At 8 a.m., the a brewery's coming into pitch and you sample it and you go on to lunch and happy hour and it just turns into what it turns into.
40:00
SPEAKER_02: But I think that looking at the alcohol industry from an academic standpoint now has been the most fascinating for me because it's changed so much.
40:08
SPEAKER_02: And it's changed so much.
40:09
SPEAKER_02: And you bring up the non- the low, low dose or low dose, non-alcoholic, whatever you want to call it, and low alcohol in in the UK.
40:16
SPEAKER_02: It's something that I've been following for years, uh, because for the longest time in the UK, and especially in England and I think in Scotland or so, I was watching the trend where you called it yellow hour.
40:26
SPEAKER_02: And is that because of the is that still the thing where it's like beer, cider, beer, cider, or kind of alternation?
40:31
SPEAKER_00: Yellow hour is Botivo.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: So that's what they got.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: They're trying to own that happy hour occasion.
40:37
SPEAKER_02: What was it called?
40:38
SPEAKER_02: Did they have I thought there was a phrasing for when you alternated low dose and high doses, and that was like a trend for a while too.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: Zebra, I think it's zebra drinking.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: That's what it was, a zebra drink.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:48
SPEAKER_02: Yep, that's what it was.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and when I saw that, that was when things started to click for me because it's like, okay, outside of the United States, they're starting to see things at a different trend.
40:57
SPEAKER_02: And obviously, that that wave has now come over here to where people are, you know, I go I go out still with my friends and everything like that.
41:03
SPEAKER_02: Like I spend a lot of time in breweries, wineries, and bars and stuff like that.
41:07
SPEAKER_02: And I'm seeing my own friends because I'm drinking non-alcoholics, they're going like two and then a non-alcoholic and one and it's and they're actually there.
41:15
SPEAKER_02: It's not, I'm not one that like says I'm not a sober person that like is like alcohol is poison or anything like that.
41:21
SPEAKER_02: I think that's the worst statement in the world because alcohol is great for a lot of people and it and works for a lot of people.
41:26
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just happening to be one that over time it didn't work out.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: But the the part that everybody in the beverage industry has to really brace themselves for is that mentality, though, while it is great for health, from a business standpoint, you have to be paying attention by the week and by the day now to where this consumer's going because that promiscuity, I'm not saying it isn't negative about the consumer, because the consumer is doing what the consumer wants for themselves and for their for their best interest.
41:52
SPEAKER_02: We have to be more observant of that.
41:54
SPEAKER_02: And we have to be able to prepare for those moments when that consumer might shift from, I'm not going to drink alcohol this month or for two months, I'm going to go over here to this other drink.
42:03
SPEAKER_02: And I think retailers, a lot of times we get into conversations with chains and grocery and convenience that are kind of autopilot when it comes to ordering and stuff like that.
42:14
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if you have the same experience with independence, but I feel like they are the canary in the coal mine.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: So when that consumer is shifting faster than the grocery convenience store type things or the chains and stuff.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I definitely agree with that.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: I think we've still got a problem with the lack of choice in a lot of big venues.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: You go in and it's across event spaces.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: And when you go in and you ask for non-alcoholic, and I'm like, oh, what fun non-alcoholic drinks.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: We have.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: And they're like, well, we have coke or water.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, I don't want to drink another Coke, and I want something more with tasty and flavour.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: And but I also think this again, it comes back to a lot of people are set in their ways and they're seeing the state as quote as it is.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: They're not taking the time to actually interrogate who is this drinker and why have they given up drinking and what do they still want?
42:59
SPEAKER_00: Because for me, I love wine, but wine doesn't love me anymore.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: So I'd wake up feeling awful even after one glass of wine the next day.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: And that's that was my tipping point.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: But I'm still the one who will go out and dance.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm the one who's who wants the fun and the joy.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: I just don't want to have my drink to have alcohol in because I can't handle it.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: So I see that a lot of places and hospitality aren't keeping up.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's because they've gone, well, this is how it is, and we're just going to reorder, as you said, rather than going, okay, let's reimagine this.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: Let's kind of take that step back and start thinking about what what does this look like again?
43:37
SPEAKER_02: Are you seeing in the in the UK?
43:38
SPEAKER_02: I mean, in the United States, it's not prevalent by a volume that's that's anything immeasurable yet, but we're seeing like sober bars popping up now where they don't even have alcohol in it.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're seeing a few of them, and there's also sober event spaces as well, which I I like.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: But again, I'm not anti-drink.
43:55
SPEAKER_02: See, that's my problem with it.
43:57
SPEAKER_02: That's exactly what I like it blended.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: I like it blended.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can see like I love us would love a sober rave at 6 a.m.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: in the morning.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't really want to drink then.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: But I also, for me, I don't care if other people around me are drinking.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: It's about just for me the enjoy experience and just having something that I can get on with.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: But I also think it's important to note like there's a couple of brands over here that have nailed the portfolio approach.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: There's like Guinness and DiAgio have absolutely nailed their non-alcoholic Guinness.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: So my husband is a big Guinness drinker, but he'll flip-flop between the two.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: And he sometimes he'll have a non-alcoholic, and it you'll see it with his friends when they're out, is sometimes they'll be on the non-alcoholic, sometimes with them there, so they'll flip around.
44:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a it's a it's a the funny thing is from the retailer standpoint, the margins are the same at some of the retailers in the American.
44:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm looking at they're charging nine, ten dollars for non-alcoholic beer.
44:50
SPEAKER_02: So the the retailer has a has an incentive almost to diversify as much as possible.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: But I have we have to wind down here, but Carlett, thank you so much.
44:59
SPEAKER_02: Like I just I have to say, like, I I wanna I wanna I could talk to you for days, I feel like.
45:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, I just I really want to say thank you as we kind of wind down here.
45:07
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for the courage to come on.
45:09
SPEAKER_02: Uh, because it sounds like to you, you're like, oh, courage, what's that?
45:12
SPEAKER_02: We got I I did I pitch everybody all week long, and sometimes people are like, no prep, no questions, no anything, I'm not hopping on.
45:18
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what you're gonna ask.
45:18
SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be clickbait, it's gonna be anything like that.
45:20
SPEAKER_02: You got the courage to come on, and I I really appreciate it.
45:23
SPEAKER_02: And and that drive and resilience and everything like that.
45:26
SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for that.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: It's been absolutely joyous.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: I just love it.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: Love a good ramble.
45:32
SPEAKER_02: So do I, so do I.
45:33
SPEAKER_02: So I'll close out with uh reminding everybody this there's no script, there's no agenda, there are no questions in advance.
45:39
SPEAKER_02: Carly and I have never been to a bar together, we've never been to a coffee shop together, and we've never met in person.
45:44
SPEAKER_02: And this is the first time, and I want to remind everybody the human connection is a really powerful thing.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: You've seen it themed out throughout unintentionally, but that's just how our personalities were.
45:52
SPEAKER_02: It's not like that every episode, but it works out sometimes to be able to show you.
45:55
SPEAKER_02: So I remind everybody while you're out there walking on the street in the sidewalk, put your phone in your pocket, look at the strangers while you're walking down the street.
46:02
SPEAKER_02: When you're at the gas station filling up your cup of coffee, ask the person next to you how they're doing, and actually shut your mouth and listen to what they say.
46:09
SPEAKER_02: Five minutes a week is my challenge to everybody.
46:12
SPEAKER_02: Five minutes of kindness to a stranger, 20 minutes a month.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: We talk about ROIs on this show all the time.
46:17
SPEAKER_02: It's all fun and it's ready to drink, and we talk about beverages, but human connection is so important that five minutes could save somebody's day, could get them through to the next day, and then God forbid they don't want to be on this earth.
46:27
SPEAKER_02: You might actually give somebody an extension and to really consider what their time is here.
46:32
SPEAKER_02: And I really want to thank you, Carly, because that part of your courage coming on is also the joy of the human connection that your willingness and open mind to have a conversation with a stranger from across the pond, as they say, you know.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: That's wonderful, and I agree with you.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Human connection is everything, and I think it's gonna get more and more and more important.
46:49
SPEAKER_00: So excellent.
46:51
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Carly.
46:52
SPEAKER_02: You have a great rest of your day.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: And you take care.
46:54
SPEAKER_02: Take care.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: See ya.