Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / The Alex Murdaugh Con and How to Avoid Being Conned
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to It's All Your Fault, untrue Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Hi everybody. We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California, where we focus on training, consulting, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In this episode, we are going to continue talking about the Alex Murdoch case slash murders after discussing various aspects of the case and, you know, various personality aspects in the first episode. So in this one, we'll talk about how the people close to Alex Murdoch were conned and how you can be avoid being conned. You may have been conned in the past, so let's see if we can avoid it again in the future. But first, a couple of notes. If you have a question about a high conflict situation, please send it to podcast high conflict institute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast, where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Please give us a rate or review and tell your friends, colleagues, or family about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation. We are very grateful. Speaker 1 (01:30): Okay, so Bill, um, here we are. It's been, uh, now about two weeks, a little over two weeks since Alec Alex Murdoch was, uh, found guilty by a jury of his peers of murdering both his wife and his son, which is, uh, tragic and, and very sad. And we talked in the previous episode about, you know, his personality des antisocial personality is the sociopath. What, what are these? But bodily. So if you haven't listened to that one, go back and listen. It's really pretty fascinating. And in this episode we wanna talk again about, you know, why so many people around him supported bad things. , he, he just kept conning them. And it's like there's this collective, uh, going along with it from many in the community and not just where he lived, but also in the banking community and in the legal community. And, uh, his, his legal firm, law firm had become a powerhouse in the state of South Carolina. Speaker 1 (02:37): And, uh, so he had a lot of connections and, uh, you know, there really had a lot of control in the state. So ultimately, not only has he been convicted of these murders, but he now, now has to go through, I think it's 99 counts of financial crimes. Um, he'll be going to court on those. He stole people's money, allegedly. And, uh, it was millions and millions of dollars he was able to steal by, uh, a doing a variety of things like suing, uh, on behalf of clients in personal injury cases and wrongful death cases, things like that. And, you know, getting large awards from juries and then keeping the money or using, using it in nefarious ways, really, really bad stuff and hurtful stuff to vulnerable people because the, the people he was representing and trying to help were supposed to be helping. Um, were very vulnerable people. So let's talk today, bill, about why do people get conned? How did they go along with this for so long? Speaker 2 (03:47): You know, when you look at conning, cuz that's really what we're talking about is people say, well, that's not a diagnosis or anything. Well, actually it's a factor in the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. In fact, it's factor number two, deceitfulness as indicated by repeated lying use of aliases or conning others for personal profit or pleasure. Now, we're not diagnosing him, we haven't met him, but we're talking about possibilities. I believe that pe reason people get conned by people like Alex is that they put so much energy into creating this intimidating image of themselves and that, uh, they use other people to help promote their image. So what you're dealing with is an image of a person that's a, a fabrication, a pre-fabrication . Speaker 1 (04:54): It's like their, their avatar , right? Speaker 2 (04:56): Yeah. It's Speaker 1 (04:57): Like, it's the con artist avatar Speaker 2 (04:59): Every, and so apparently the whole community kind of tiptoed around this guy because he was so powerful, came from a powerful family, and people didn't, people don't have radar for this. And that's one of the things we're trying to give people is there are people in the world, you know, like this, they're unrestrained. In fact, that's part of their pattern of behavior is they'll take risks that no one else would. Like lying, lying in court, in a murder trial saying, I wasn't there. Oops, I was there, but everything else I said is true except for that. And when you start seeing warning signs, and I think we should all be somewhat skeptical in today's world, like it takes a little while to get to know people because they can put up an image. One of my favorite, uh, cartoons when the internet got going was this dog sitting in front of a computer talking to another dog on the floor saying on the internet, they don't know you're a dog. Speaker 2 (06:07): And the reality is, you have no clue what who people are. And people successfully conn people out of thousands and millions of dollars we're seeing, you know, just irresponsible behavior. But conning is intentional and it's bigger than lying. Lying is, I'm not telling the truth. Conning is I'm not telling the truth. So I can get you to do something. And the thing that they want you to do is to protect them and cover up for them. And so, realizing that there's a percent of people, and if he has antisocial personality disorder, that's about 4% of adults. So there's maybe 4% of people who are happy to con you and they don't have empathy and remorse. And people are fooled by that. They go, well, no one would lie about something like this. And big money deals. Well for big money deals, just look at Bernie Madoff. Speaker 2 (07:09): He, he conned the whole city of New York. He was almost appointed the, um, commissioner of the s e c I think the Security and Exchange Commission. He went on for 20 years, conning everybody. And so what's interesting to me is I saw the three, three hour, uh, segment thing. I think it was Netflix on him. And when the first death happened, the girlfriend of a friend of his son, he quickly went to the hospital that cuz several of them were injured in this boat accident. He quickly went to the hospital and he's quickly starting his story. He's spinning his story and saying, don't worry, I'll take care of you to a boy who was not driving the boat. His son was driving the boat and he's implying this other boy was, and he's gonna help him out. Well, he's creating a false story and you can just see him working so hard and fast. People like this are fast and fast talking and they catch people by surprise. Speaker 1 (08:22): So let's talk a minute about characteristics sort of, uh, that could be warning signs. Um, I, I'm thinking of, of con con artists, we've seen many of them seem to be tall. Now I know that seems ridiculous, but there is an intimidation factor when height, um, you know, or maybe being very strong, perhaps, uh, combining that with this personality, um, these tactics, it can be very intimidating. I'm sure there are plenty of height challenged people who are also calling others. But, um, what are some of the, the telltale signs? I know for me, one of the biggest is, is when you feel confused about facts versus fiction and the story being told when things don't line up. You know, I mean, they're, most people will, you know, maybe have a different perspective of things, but this is where it's very confusing and you think, boy, this just, they, they, things don't line up, but oh, they seem so believable. Um, I I don't wanna get it wrong. Speaker 2 (09:28): Well, actually the last thing you said, they seem so believable and they shape themselves to seem believable. Their tone of voice might be quiet, might be friendly, like, might be overly intimate, like I'm telling you a secret that nobody else knows, you know, and don't tell anybody else this is a deal. You're gonna make out like a bandit if you give me this, give me your money to invest in this, uh, whatever it is. And so it's, it's seeming. And so they're really good at manipulating emotions. I actually call it primitive emotional power, pep, p e p. And they use primitive emotional power to get into your head, to get you to doubt what you see and to believe that you see what they're telling you. And so you see a blue wall and they say, now that green wall, I, I painted it actually last week and I really like this color of green and it symbolizes money and all the money we're gonna make. Speaker 2 (10:38): And you start going, huh, well maybe I'm wrong. It doesn't look green, but I'm not gonna say anything because he seems so confident. And that's actually where the con comes from. They used to call it a confidence, man. They take you into your confidence and doubt yourself and believe them. And so this con works emotionally. And when you're being conned emotionally, you, you don't have time to process it. You're not looking at it and you're picking up body language that may look threatening or seductive. A big person can be quite intimidating. But some of the best con artists are little people who are really fast talkers. And you go, oh, well, you know, this guy's gotta be telling the truth. I mean, you wouldn't lie about something like this. Well, that's where people get trapped con artists. So why about anything? And they can take risks and they get by until they don't get by. Speaker 1 (11:44): Yeah. So their mind is trying to solve a problem. And that problem is that they need to be the dominant person wherever they are performing things that make them a, a dominant person in society and in their relationships. So they're trying to, to solve some sort of problem like this, it just is very natural to them and feels very normal. So they're not sitting there thinking, like you said, bill, they're not, they're not remorseful. Where I think we project how we would feel like I would feel some remorse. I would feel regret, I would feel so bad if I did this, you know, if I lied and got caught or, you know, or really put someone in a bad way. But these folks don't. And that I think is very, very tricky for most people to accept and to understand. We want to think that they're, uh, individuals who are already locked up for being a serial killer. Right? Speaker 2 (12:35): The, the kindness is, is a factor. There's a great court case that I put at the front of the book, high conflict people in legal disputes where there was a guy who actually at 21 killed his 19 year old sister, and he went to prison for that. And apparently he was under the influence of some kind of drug at that point. And so what he did was he got out of, out of prison and he went to law school and tried to convince everybody that he could be a good honorable citizen. And so he lined people up, he did volunteer work, he just did all these things and he had 20 people testify for him that he's a really good guy. He helped build low income housing, he did this and that. He had law school professors, volunteer program directors, all these people that said that he was a kind wonderful man. Speaker 2 (13:32): And yet at the same time he was, uh, he was, uh, writing bad checks. He was getting traffic tickets. He never dealt with, he didn't go to court hearings for traffic violations. And the Supreme Court, California Supreme Court said, you know, this kind man never had a period in his life without anti-social behavior and especially when he was in law school, when he should have been more attentive to the principles of law. And so they said, you can't be a lawyer, you, you don't pass the moral character thing. So in terms of kindness, that's a big part of the con. Speaker 1 (14:12): So as you were talking about that, what what came to my mind is that they're just, if we go back to the people surrounding Alex Murda, they seem to have been attracted by the power, by the influence. And I think that is a big problem in these cases because, you know, we have such a, an influenced culture. We are influenced by celebrity and we're influenced by power and people who seem to have power. And it seems to me that's how so many con artists get away with it is we want to be seduced. Speaker 2 (14:45): Yeah. I think they find your weakness and what you're looking for, and they're really good. Like, like they don't have empathy of the normal sort, but they, they have a empathy of sensing other people's emotions. And so they go where your weakness is and they go, well, you really want to succeed, or you really want to be seen as a hero, or you wanna really be seen as a attractive person. And they, they tell you things that you'll go, oh yeah, I do want that. And so they, they, they suck you in to their schemes because there is something you're looking for. And especially if you have self, self-doubts, um, if you've got a recent loss and someone's paying you all this attention and they're going, oh, you're so wonderful. You're so smart. You're not getting the respect you deserve, you know, you should leave that job and work for me. Speaker 2 (15:46): Some people are more gullible, frankly, but other people have moments of gullibility. And the reality is, in the modern world, you really have to have a healthy skepticism. And I think most people by now have learned about not falling for skims on the internet, but when they first started, people were giving money to prisoners in Nigeria because they pretended that they were royalty who had money to give away, but they just needed $10,000. And then you would get a million dollars, something like that for a couple years. There was those, and they figured they were coming from prisoners in Nigeria. They were inside prison with computers. , Speaker 1 (16:32): Oh, bill, that is still going on today. Okay. It's rampant across the world. It's, it's from every country. It, it's, it's very rampant. Uh, uh, for example, I was on my, um, bank account last week and uh, was going to transfer some money to someone and you know, someone I know, obviously just a couple hundred dollars, but there was a big, uh, warning sign on the page before you transfer saying, Hey, watch out for scammers, , look out. You know, because they are getting particularly to the elderly who are very vulnerable and to others, and, uh, they use their best conning skills and you know, they're, you know, removed by the internet, like you said, you know, they don't know you're a dog . So I think that was brilliant, by the way. Um, so it's, yeah, there's a lot, a lot, a lot of scamming going on and it, I it's, they just get more clever all the time. Speaker 1 (17:26): So when it's a, you know, through the internet, that's one thing. And it really is remarkable to think that we have evolved into a society that's so trusting of people. We have no idea who they are, uh, you know, because of this, you know, global connectedness. So, uh, it, it, it means we do have to be more aware. Now if we have one of these folks in our circle in our life, they come to you not holding a, a neon sign. Right? They don't say, I'm, I'm probably gonna con you and you're going to really regret knowing me. So they're going to be in your, you know, your biking club or your neighborhood, or your church or your whatever, you know, your friendship group. And they don't even know that they do this. This is just what they do. Right? So you have to be hyper aware, I think, I mean, I, we don't want everyone to be paranoid, do we? Speaker 1 (18:25): But we need to be very aware and skeptical, like you said, to have a healthy, healthy skepticism. Talk for a minute about the people that surrounded him, you know, these were other, uh, others who also had a lot of influence. People who'd gone to law school with him and or even, you know, I think someone as far back as, as maybe junior high or high school where they played football together or you know, or at least met in law school and they've done business together a long time, the law partners. And, uh, there was, I'm thinking there had to be points where they were doubting Alex or wondering what he was up to. But we get busy with life and I'm, I'm not putting any blame on them, but I think we get busy and we also have that intense push, emotional, what you call it, uh, primitive emotional power that this person has over us. And so we keep our mouth shut and we just keep going along. Speaker 2 (19:26): I think that's a lot what happens. And they kind of go, there's a cognitive dissonance. This is a, a powerful person, a smart person, a wealthy person, everybody respects this person. How could I doubt them? You know, I'm seeing something that concerns me, but I'm probably wrong. And so I think what people do is they push, push their doubts outta their mind. And the, the bigger the person, the more they do that say, well, I don't wanna be the one out on a limb here. I'm benefiting from this person. And by the way, people like this give out a lot of favors. And so people don't wanna lose those favors. They keep coming. I'm gonna need Alex someday to take care of me, so I'm not gonna step on his toes. But there is this weird thing that happened. People push aside their own self doubts. Speaker 2 (20:23): And so it isn't just having a healthy skepticism is it's paying attention to your, your gut. Sometimes there's that book, the Gift of Fear, which I really found excellent, that our bodies, and that's like the primitive emotional power, is your body senses something before your logical mind picks it up. And you need to pay attention. Doesn't mean you should let your gut reaction run your life, but you should at least check with that gut reaction. Say, well, maybe this is a false statement, maybe this is a dangerous person. Maybe this is something I need to really watch out for. So I think that's all, you know, that's part of the package. Speaker 1 (21:08): Yeah. And I, you know, I wonder about people who are very naive. I suspect that many had a trauma background themselves. And I wonder, and I'm just speculating here, if some become maybe hyper vigilant about con artists and they aren't going to be conned, like they can sense it earlier on than, than other people, while some are so used to a life of mixed signals that they don't pick up on it, maybe they push it aside and in an attempt, uh, maybe someone that's sort of codependent and really is a fixer of others and will kind of push aside their own gut reaction to take care of someone else, is do you think there's anything to that? Speaker 2 (21:52): Yeah, some people who are, you know, children of trauma, adults that grew up with traumatic childhood are really looking hard to watch out for the characteristics that that traumatized them. So I'll give you a quick example. I once did, uh, counseling with a teenage girl. Her mother had divorced and then married a new man. So he was a stepfather of the girl. The mother had been terribly physically and sexually abused as a child. And so she was on the alert, I'm never going to get together with a man who's physically abusive. And so she married this guy who is very mild manner, this and that. And she also, for some reason took a job, uh, as a waitress on an evening shift. So she's always out in the evenings. And this guy is home alone with this teenage girl. And starting when she was 12 or 13, he started molesting her and raping her and kept her quiet about it for several years. Speaker 2 (23:10): Finally, 16 or 17, this came out and he ended up going to jail and the girl ended up testifying against him. But I did a, a family session with the mother and the daughter, and the mother's just so traumatized by this. And she said, I tried so hard to find somebody who wasn't physically abusive and aggressive, and because of that, I missed that this guy was, was, you know, a sexual, um, criminal essentially. So I think part of it is people who are traumatized or protecting against the trauma they experience when they still may be then vulnerable to a different kind of dominance and trauma. I've seen that in other situations too. So it's, it's sad cuz they're trying hard and yet it makes them blind to something else. Speaker 1 (24:05): Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yep. They've got some gaps there that they, they are, are completely missing some blind spots I guess we'd say. Uh, interesting. So let's, uh, you know, kind of shift into how do we avoid being conned because we can be, right. We, we, we want to think that it's again, that it's that serial killer that's already locked up or that we'll never encounter. But it can be your banker, it can be your doctor, it can be, you know, anyone at a professional level, anyone at who's not at a professional level . Um, it's very equal opportunity. So, um, I think number one, you just do have to be aware when you meet new people, um, any, any new relationship, whether it's a professional relationship or a friendship or a casual relationship, you just, you do have to be aware in the beginning. Yes. Speaker 2 (25:03): Yeah. I mean the book that you and I wrote Dating Radar really comes to mind with this is we don't tell people, here's the answer. We say, take a year and see what comes up. Because a lot of times, like domestic violence doesn't start for about six months. People can put on an image for six months, maybe even nine months, but most of the time it doesn't last a year. And so give yourself time also. And we suggested it in that book is, is have your friends and family meet the person, see what they think Speaker 1 (25:40): And listen to them Speaker 2 (25:41): . Yeah. Listen to them, listen to what they say. Right? Yeah. So if your sister says, Hey, this, this guy's no good for you is don't just say, oh, you're not understanding him cuz that's what he told you, have a healthy skepticism. And the other thing I think, and this is another big one I've been really focusing a lot on lately, is I'm starting to call this the bully story. The bully story has three parts, and the first part is there's a terrible crisis. So you don't have time to think there's an evil villain over there, and I'm your hero, so follow me, come with me, listen to me. And so, and this was one of the internet scams that worked for a while, is you get a message that your, your computer's been, uh, invaded and crisis and you quickly have to click on this link so we can protect your computer from this terrible, you know, virus or whatever that got through. Speaker 2 (26:47): I remember once there was a picture of a weird kind of black do like a spider or something like that, and they said, this is a Microsoft warning and it looked really dangerous and scary and it's like, you've got to do this thing, you know, quickly check this, this, and this. And so many of us got fooled, but got con by the, the fake emergency. So watch out when someone says there's a terrible emergency and there's no time to check it out, you have to follow me. That to me is one of the biggest warning signs that, that we can know about today because we are constantly being told something's an emergency and there are some real emergencies, but you need to check them out. And if they won't let you check them out and say, and don't tell anybody else, that's another warning sign. Yeah. Speaker 1 (27:45): So I'm thinking there are those new relationships and uh, with, with those quick emergencies, and that makes a a lot of sense. And I, I think that's how so many vulnerable peop vulnerable people are, are conned out of their money. Um, you know, I've heard stories about elderly people being called, saying that their, their grandson is in jail and he's going to, I don't know, be kidnapped, all, you know, all different kinds of things. And they, they, they just send the money. They, they, they just, you know, these are people who pull at your heartstrings where if, if it's real, they're going to, you know, you're going to want to go talk to law enforcement or the call will probably probably be coming from law enforcement, right? So you want to check things out, you know, I'm, I'm thinking of the people or the situations I've en encountered myself. Speaker 1 (28:34): And, uh, it's, it's that quick emergency stuff and you kind of quickly realize, you know, that's, that's not a, a good idea, this can't be real. But then we shift into, you know, more longer term relationships or communities of people. And that's what we see, uh, or saw in the Alex Murdoch case is a, a small community, more kind of a rural community where everybody kind of gets along, everyone knows each other. The Murdoch law firm donated lots of things to people in need. They're very charitable in the community. And I've seen this in many rural, you know, smaller communities around the US and I'm sure other parts of the world, uh, , it happens everywhere, but it's, it's kind of known in the community. Like, uh, who, who's who in the zoo, so to speak. And, um, even if they suspect someone like an Alex Murda of Mm, being not quite right, well, they do so many nice things in the community and what would the community do without them? Right? So the, the pressure is there. And, and so in that pot, you know, how do you, I I I guess each person has to make their individual choice. They're not being pressured in the moment, but they're being pressured collectively on a larger scale. Does that make sense, bill? Speaker 2 (29:57): Yeah, no, I, I think you're right. And that's often where we do hear stories like this is someone who was upstanding in the community. Um, some serial killers, they conned everybody. They conned their spouses. And, and that's hard for people to believe, but I really believe it when spouses say, I had no clue because they were upstanding. There was a serial killer, I think it was in Washington state, and the guy, um, turned out to be, I think in the church. I think he may have been one of the elders or someone, and it wasn't a very large community. He certainly looked respectable, all these things. And on the side, in his spare time, he was killing young women and it was like a citizen beyond suspicion. And I think when you realize that somebody's beyond suspicion, you need to be really suspicious , Speaker 1 (30:58): Right? Speaker 2 (30:58): Right. But I think, you know, small communities have more of a hierarchy and everyone supports it. It's like, well, this, these are the upstanding people. These are the people that always get in trouble. And you know, these are the people that are kind of steady and stable. And the, the con artists can fulfill the image for quite a while because once you're established, you stop being questioned. And I think, you know, that big cities, people are a little more suspicious and a little more cautious cuz they know that there's, out of all these people, there's, there's some con artists. It's just having our eyes open and having discussions like this that, that people need. And I think we should mention that we were once conned by somebody. Speaker 1 (31:50): Oh yeah, let's Speaker 2 (31:51): Talk about that. Someone that was gonna be a co-author on one of our books and, and you, you said, um, I've lost contact. Can you see if he wants to use his middle initial or whatever to put on the book cover? And I'm in an airport and you have to find out today for the published, you know, this, the distributor wants to know the titles on the cover. And so I didn't have information with me, so I quick googled him and found out that he wasn't who he said he was. And he'd been sentenced to four years in federal prison for identity theft. And this is someone that did some research for us. Fortunately, we never depended a lot, but we got conned. Speaker 1 (32:35): Yeah. And how did it start? It started by being contacted by him. And this was a professional, right? He was, this person was a lawyer and um, wanted to do an internship with us. And of course we'd love to have help with all the work we have to do. And, uh, but we, we, you know, this is, we tried to practice what we preach. So I was actually going to be in this person's, uh, uh, city and I thought, well, let's, I'll just meet with the person, uh, over a meal or something, um, and, and have a meeting just to, to get a read on the, the individual. So we thought we were doing dil due diligence, right, bill, right. Checking this out in person, we thought, and we're Speaker 2 (33:18): In this business, Speaker 1 (33:20): Right? And I think we're really experts at it, and we kind of are, but they're still, we're still human. And, uh, you know, you do your best. Um, and sometimes there's still going to be, you know, people that get away with things. However, uh, what what kind of in also influenced me in meeting this person was they were, um, uh, pretty severely physically, uh, disabled. I think that probably increased my empathy factor a bit, but also there was no, you know, big massive charm. It was, this individual was just, you know, pretty calm and, uh, very intelligent and, and nice and, you know, seemingly had a pretty good, uh, track record in the legal community. So yeah, it, I, I think I recommended to you like, yeah, I think this'll be a really good deal and, um, for us, and it'll be very helpful for this individual as well. And it went well for a while. The work got done, but boy, it's not great when you open the newspaper and there's, there's identity theft. Speaker 2 (34:22): And by the way, we should mention that while we read, he'd been sentenced to four years in federal prison for identity theft, is he left the country. So he didn't serve that sentence. Speaker 1 (34:33): And one step beyond that just opened up shop back in Canada where he was originally from. Um, so I'm sure no one in his surroundings knows that this happened in the us. So this is, this is really common and typical, no remorse moving on, setting up shop. Um, you know, and I, I believe that we definitely believe in second chances, but I would be pretty confident that there was no reporting of his own activities to those around him. So, and even if, if even if people do, um, have a sense of that, there would probably be probably be a victim story, uh, that he would tell. And, you know, that there was a, it was a false accusation and I, there'd probably be some sort, you know, I, I don't know for sure. But that's, you know, it's pretty predictable in these cases. Speaker 2 (35:26): Anybody can be con if we are in this business of understanding personalities and we got con and both of us, you know, we should always have someone else check it out. And here we are, we're both going, well, don't see any red flags, Speaker 1 (35:40): But we found out in time. Yeah, that was the, the good news before we had a, an established longer term relationship. So, Speaker 2 (35:48): And not on the cover of the book. Speaker 1 (35:50): Right, right. Hallelujah. So, well I hope this has been helpful to you, our listeners. Um, you've just gotta be careful. Um, and particularly I think if you have others in your family, in your life, your friendships, groups that, uh, you, you, I, I guess I would assess who around you is vulnerable. If it's your parents and they could have some exposure, uh, financially, just make sure you get them educated. Make sure that you say, Hey, you know, if someone contacts you and says, your grandkids in jail and you need to send $30,000 check with me first , right? Um, not everyone's listening to the same news stories or, you know, really understands these things. So we have to make sure that things are, are very protected and people are very protected. Speaker 1 (36:47): Thank you for listening today. Next week we will answer a lot of listener questions about a variety of topics. I know you've been sending them in. Thank you very much for doing that. And it's been a while since we've answered questions. So we'll do those In the meantime, send your questions to podcasts high conflict institute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. Tell your friends about us and we'd be grateful if you leave a review wherever you listen to us. Until next time, keep learning and practicing the skills and be kind to yourself and others while we all try to find the missing piece. It's all your fault. It's a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson, music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and zip Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm for high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app Laos ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.