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Bullying: Panel Discussion · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Welcome to the Gay Men Going Deeper Podcast, a podcast series by the Gay Men's Brotherhood, where we talk about personal development, mental health, and sexuality. I'm your host, Reno Johnston. I'm a spiritual life love and business coach. And your panelists today are Warren, the VP of operations for a childcare franchise. And Warren is also transitioning into erotic therapy of the soul. Keone, a poet, shaman, advocate, and creative entrepreneur, and Phil, a global loneliness thought leader. We're your hosts, your panelists today. And today we are talking about the topic of bullying. So before we dive into the conversation, I want to say a few things about bullying. I want to invite you, the listeners, to create a safe and comfortable space for yourself as you're entering this conversation. Because the content can certainly be triggering and challenging to listen to, it may bring some things up for you throughout the conversation. And so I invite you to really caregive yourself and honor yourself throughout this conversation. If something feels particularly challenging, I invite you to maybe take a breath or step away from the conversation and come back to it. And I'd like to now define bullying. So bullying is defined as an ongoing and deliberate misuse of power in relationships through repeated verbal, physical, and or social behavior that intends to cause physical, social, and or psychological harm. It said that about one third of people will experience bullying in their lifetime, either in the classroom, the workplace, online, or outside of these spaces. And so that makes this a particularly important conversation. Global, globally, bullying is. Is something that, you know, I have come to recognize. We have come to recognize as an issue and an important conversation to be having, something that follows us in the early years, in the classroom and into our adulthoods, and is actually quite prevalent right now in the online and digital space as well. And so this conversation now more than ever feels particularly ripe and important and significant. And I just want to say, as I said earlier, that I am very honored and grateful to be sharing this space with the three of you and those listening and exploring this conversation. So as we dig in, I want to start with a question for each of you, which is, what is your experience with bullying? And why don't we start with you, Warren?
• 3:21
  Speaker B: I go first. How lovely is that? So my experience with bullying actually started before I was even born, you know, so I felt a lot of bullying as a. As an infant. There was a lot of people that would say very negative things because my coming into this world was not the statistical way of getting into this world. So there's a lot of different dynamics. But the bullying started within my family, within my Culture, a Caribbean culture of being a person out of wedlock or being born out of wetlock. My parents were not married when I was born. There was just a lot of different dynamics from that. And then through that just add on as I got older. Like I was a faggot, I was an anti man, I was this, I was that. So it. It really started at infancy and it prevalent throughout, throughout my childhood, through my adolescence. And it caused a lot of strongholds in my life. So.
• 4:46
  Speaker A: Bill.
• 4:52
  Speaker C: First of all, like, I want to say hi. Thanks so much for the intro, Reno. What a lovely panel to be part of. And I'm coming to everyone from Canberra, Australia's capital city, on the traditional country of the Ngarawal people. And I humbly acknowledge and pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. And I want to like, say that I've experienced bullying in two main areas of life. I went to a boarding school and any kind of notion that that boarding school kind of was like Hogwarts or I think there was a Canadian book, like, I think they were Bruno or Boots or something. And I went to McDonald hall or something and it was like from the 80s, I think. And boarding school is some kind of like romantic, romanticized sort of rollicking adventure that really was not my. My experience of boarding school. I grew up in a tiny country town in regional New South Wales, and the alternative to boarding school was being on a bus an hour to a high school and then an hour home at the end of the day. So boarding school was kind of like the only real option. I was in year nine and I was different. I was the smart kid, I was the unsporty kid. I now know that I was during that time noticing an interest in. In boys. And there were people in my dorm who sort of sensed difference, sensed weakness. And yeah, I lived pretty much 24 hours a day with. With relentless bullying. And the only kind of respite that I got was when I slept. But even then I had to be careful how I slept. And yeah, so there was. There was that experience, but then also in the workplace. So I used to work as a diplomat. And there's an expression in like a Chinese expression, the empire is big and the emperor is far away. And it is like that. It can be like that. Living and working in an embassy overseas, where you are your government, you're representing your government, and the power structure within that is extremely hierarchical. And you have a type personalities who really want to make a difference. And the support from your employer can be thousands of Kilometers, multiple time zones away and you are essentially on your own. It can be a great environment, but it can also be a horrible environment when people want to make a name for themselves. Kiss up, kick down. Thai power dynamics are at play. And it was a terrible, horrible, lonely experience at times, both as an adolescent and as a grownup, you know, an educated grownup. So yeah, it's, it's, it's horrible. And also I will admit, and I think we'll get into this in a little while. Like I, I have been a bully. I'm not going to say that, you know, I've, I've been entirely victim here. This is, this is something that, you know, my way of coping with this was to actually go on the attack as well. And which, which is something that is, is deeply uncomfortable.
• 9:17
  Speaker A: Thanks for sharing that, Phil. I'm curious if you want to say, I know you mentioned we might go into it a bit more later on, but I'm curious if you want to say a little bit more about what you just shared as far as being in that role, the role of the bully as well.
• 9:38
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So particularly, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't a big kid. I, I wasn't, you know, I was pretty, what we'd say. I, I guess it's, you know, it's universally expression, they're pretty weedy and, and very bookish. And I realized that, you know, I, while I could run kind of fast, I couldn't like hold like I couldn't defend myself physically. So I protected myself through my wit and my intellect and developed a really sharp tongue. And if someone, if I was feeling threatened or there was the hint of feeling threatened, I would go, I would get you back first. And the sharpness of my tongue was, and the quickness of my wit got me through things, but they also led me to say some pretty horrible things to people in an effort to stay safe in myself. But also, you know, it's a horrible way I could say this is a, you know, 46 year old man. It's a horrible way of, of, of doing that. Making other people feel as bad as I feared they would make me feel. That was, that was where that came from but you know, a defense mechanism from, from adolescence really.
• 11:20
  Speaker A: Thank you for sharing that, Phil. Yeah. And Keoni, a little bit yourself, what is your experience with bullying?
• 11:31
  Speaker D: Hi everyone. It's really lovely to be here. Thank you Warren and Phil for sharing. Yeah. I would say that my understanding of bullying from this perspective is that it is related to power, related to Feeling an absence of power, feeling that maybe the only way to achieve power is to take that from someone else. So my earliest memories of it, I think, would be with the dynamic between my parents. You know, my mom's position as a very intelligent woman in a very patriarchal society in the 1970s, trying, trying to experience. Trying to, trying to feel like she had power and my father's experience in the same sort of society being expected to wield power and not necessarily feel like an innate quality with that. So getting really drunk and then becoming really abusive. So my experience growing up was of, you know, the kind of almost like the erosion, the erosive quality of bullying. The way that it's about, you know, it's like a drip on, on kind of chalk just kind of wearing away and, and the, and the, and the terrible sadness and suffering that, you know, goes with it. And then my own experience as the, as a young queer was, you know, just feeling continually like I was, you know, I was, I was the object. I was the object of ridicule. I was, I was, I was. You know, there was, there was no narrative of kind of support and, and no kind of recognition, like kind of positive, reinforcing recognition of difference. There was just alienation, belittlement. You know, it was, it was as, as I think probably is going to come out here already, has come out already will come out more may resonate with people just, you know, when you're different and, and you're in school environments where almost universally you're dealing with kids who don't have power, you know, who are children in an adult world and who are desperately looking to try and get power wherever they can, then the people who stand out as different are the, they're the, they're the big, bright, shiny target. And, and so that kind of never, that never left, that never was anything other than that. So, you know, it was either about, you know, being like fat or it was about, I mean, it was about being fat, it was about being camp, it was about, you know, standing a particular way, it was about lisping, it was about. And then, and, you know, the more that, you know, my mum kind of said in horror at me and was like, I need to put you in some kind of environment that is going to make you different but is going to make you straight, that is going to bring you into line, then the more like contrasting that difference. And I don't know. I'm really, you know, I think, I think to some degree the, the poison and the medicine dance really Close together. So the poison of bullying is absolutely related to the medicine of transformation and strength. I couldn't imagine being all the kinds of crazy I am in the world right now were it not for all those instances. And Phil, absolutely. You know, I have. I have an abiding pain when I remember my experience to one of my closest friends who was more camp than me and more effeminate, and turning on him as an act of being able to achieve some kind of power within myself and. And kind of going, okay, I'm not right at the bottom of this heap, you know, and, yeah, it's. It's something that. It's something that I hold dear to me as a reminder of how not to behave. So, yeah.
• 16:22
  Speaker A: Beautiful shares. Thank. Yeah, thank you all for sharing. Where to start. Where to start. You know, some. I believe it was Warren who said it began before. Before birth. And I mean, there were so many brilliant things said just now. And. And I can really relate to that. I. I shared this in a previous podcast episode. We'd record it. But I said, you know, I am the dream of my ancestors. I think it's a quote by Maya Angelou. And, you know, it's really my sense that, like, we carry. We carry that energy and that ancestral energy in our. In our, you know, in our skin and our DNA and our physiology that we are, you know, in. In many ways still kind of healing from. And processing the impacts of ancestral bullying. You know, whether it was witch burnings or, you know, whether it was like, slavery or what have you. You know, the list goes on and on and on. We've seen this. We've seen this again and again and again. And, you know, I'm my mother's son and my father's son, my grandmother's grandson and my grandfather's grandson. And so I'm very much aware of the impact that that has had on me, that I carry that within me. I was born into an environment where I was very much loved by the women around me. And. And also some of them had struggled with their own experiences around abuse. And I would say I was also loved by the men. And the environments that I found myself in, myself in was both challenging at times. Like, there was a lot of love, but there was also a lot of struggle. And sometimes that manifested in terms of in. In. In. In ways that were manipulative. You know, there was like, there were power imbalances. There was, like, you know, there was control, there was manipulation, there was passive aggress, passive aggression, et cetera. And some of My earliest memories of that taking place were like just observing, for example, domestic violence in some of the environments I've been in, just seeing it firsthand. And then later in my own life being in like receiving, let's say like receiving, you know, spankings or. In my neighborhood, there were actually boys that lived just across the field from me. And it wasn't even safe for me to like leave the house sometimes because I knew that the moment I stepped outside, I was a target. You know, small, sensitive, black, feminine, expressive, colorful, curious. Like, you know, there may as well have been a bullseye on my back essentially, you know, and I can laugh about it now, right? At the time it was, it was really challenging. It was really challenging. And you know, if you can imagine like a, you know, a seven year old boy, a ten year old boy, and I use the term boy loosely because honestly, even back then I was they them, you know, I never really identified with the gender that I was given and the sort of social norms and requirements associated with that gender either. I just thought, this is, gosh, this is not me. And so again, that made me a target as well. And I saw this continue in high school and even before that, like, bless his heart, you know, he was only enacting what he had learned himself. But my dad even used to say sometimes, like, put some bass in your voice, you know, and then I used to get it in school and like, it just, it was almost as if sometimes I couldn't, like I couldn't do anything right. And I was always kind of a target. It was like, you know, too much or too little or not enough. And you know, I'll acknowledge as well and we'll probably get into this as, as you said later on. But I too found myself becoming the bully because, you know, as a byproduct of my conditioning, it was like, oh, okay, well, this is where power comes from as I currently see it. This is where power and safety, you know, quote unquote, safety and power, these and belonging come from. And so this is how, this is how I need to get that, you know, fire with fire, right? I would later learn that there were other ways, but at the time I did what made sense to me as we do, right? And so I find myself in a place of, for the most part, forgiveness toward. And I guess we'll get to that. I'm jumping the gun here. But just to say that it's clear to me that I was doing what made sense to me at the time, as were the people who were engaging with me in said ways. And so. Well, I'll get to that later. But adulthood, I would say less, less bullying. But it did come up. There were some moments where I was out at the, the bar, the club or on the street and you know, people are calling me faggot or nigger or what, you know, whatever it is. Right, insert slur here. And so it didn't really end after high school, but it is certainly lessened. It is certainly lessened. Yeah, yeah. So that I would say that in summary is my overall experience of bullying. So I'm curious now that we've all had the opportunity to share our experiences with bullying. What I'm wondering, and we kind of touched on this, is how did your experiences with bullying impact your life beyond the initial experience or experiences? And some of you have touched on this. But yeah, let's, let's hear more.
• 23:27
  Speaker B: So for me, how bullying has impacted my life and my experience, it allowed me to have a very stronghold in regards to forming relationships and distrust with people. I could not trust people. You know, I was, I moved from, I, I was born in New York and then I moved to Texas completely culture shocked. And I dealt with so much bullying when, when I moved to Texas when I was 11 years old because I was the only minority in my class. Very, very, very, very, very, I won't say toxic situation, but very uncomfortable experiences because the students, the children, my peers around me, they didn't see people like me in their neighborhood, in their community. So they were only was funny what they thought was, you know, whatever they was doing. So, you know, all those experiences like people coming to my house and throwing tacos and you know, just all of this stuff and pushing me down the stairs and you know, just calling me all sorts of names that really place a void in my heart and being called monkey and how I need to go back to Africa and just, you know, just all of those hurtful things. It places a lot of, a lot of strongholds. And I keep going back to the word strongholds, but literally I remember going into, going into my new environment, my new school, very confident, very happy, coming from New York City and now being told that I'm too dark, that I need to go to Africa and no 11 year old boy that wants to be accepted and love wants to hear all of these negative things. So I gave my power into these lies, how it was ugly being dark and how I needed to bleach my skin and you know, all of this stuff. So, you know, I was very privileged as a child. I Have access to a lot of things. So I would go and buy bleaching creams and, you know, all of this stuff that most people would not have access to because of all of these toxic words and all of these experiences. Being pushed down and getting bruises and cuts and having to make lies to my mom like, oh, like I fell down the playground or you know, some type of excuse because I didn't want to address the issue. And even if I did want to address the issue, the school administrators, again, they only knew what they knew. They could not help me. I have tried. Like we had tr. Tried to intervene, my parents had intervened, but they. It just fell on deaf ears. So it literally felt like I was navigating the school system here in Texas at the time by myself because no one could have helped me. So it was just a very lonely, painful experience. And then when I became an adult, it just. When I entered the gay community, it's like I was a magnet and I would just give my love to any man. You know, I was sexually assaulted multiple times. I was drug raped. I was just a lot of stuff because I was seeking a lot of validation and love that I did not find. My family system, and that's just because of just how the system is, is basically like cut and dry, like, no, I love you. And I could not find that connection within my peers to have friendships and bond and whatnot because of my skin color, of how I sound very different than the typical norm at that time. And then, you know, yeah, so that's just how all of that impacted in my life. And then through my twenties going through all of the sexual assault and this. A lot of stuff. Let me just put it like that. There's a lot of stuff, a lot of strongholds. And even to this day I have a lot of self image issues just because of the things I've done and said in my past. Like I was suicidal. I told myself I would kill myself. I would never be in a relationship, I would never be loved. There's all of these negative things just because of an initial bullying experience when I moved here in 2000. So I'll leave it there.
• 28:28
  Speaker A: Thanks for sharing, Warren.
• 28:34
  Speaker C: It's. It's hard, it's hard at this point to not engage in comparative and competitive bullying experiences, I'm going to say. Because what I'm saying to myself right now is just like, I'm going to swear he. So I guess if tender is what I turn off for a moment, but like, holy shit. Like the things that we, that we go through. And I feel so many of us, you know, if not so many of us, all of us have these kind of experiences that are so formative that go, as Warren, you just said, you know, down like to, to a bullying experience and how horrible, how horrible we can be to each other. And for me, my sort of like the, the impact of my like being the. On the receiving end of some pretty horrible bullying. And Warren, in a similar way, like, I didn't have an out. I didn't have an out. I was asking for ways out, but I was told essentially, toughen up, toughen up. Put your big boy pants on. The, the words that I hate right now, like, man up. Like, this is how it is. Like, get in there, like make like, you know, you know, toughen up. And again, you know, this is like 1991 regional, like regional Victoria, where the boarding school was. And you know, that was the advice, like you just had to sort of suck it up and get going. And there was an option, there was an option that I entertained and I attempted suicide as a 14 year old because that was the way out. And for a long time I kept that in my back pocket. It's like, okay, if all this goes to shit, if I can't deal with it, well, then that's, that's the way out. Like, if no one else is going to give me a way out, then that's the way out. But on reflection, you know, years later, you know, the way that I coped with this is I took on the bullies voices in my own head. I started to believe what they said and embarked on a constant journey, I hate that word, constant quest in life to improve, to give bullies one less thing. So I aim for it for perfection. Perfection in words, in thoughts, in actions, in appearance. Because perfection was the way that like there were no handles for others to, you know, there were no cracks really. And so if I was perfect, I would give no one anything. And so I developed this hideous self talk. Hideous self talk. And that self talk ruled my life for such a long time until I did some work. And now I have named that, that voice who is like the voice of a scared, terrified 14 year old boy. I've named him the name of like the chief protagonist in that bullying story when I was 14. And so now I have, I think I'm answering the next question, but you know, I've named him and so I can actually now talk to him. I've named like that voice that is me, that the voice that I, I created to Keep me safe. And to keep me safe by, say, like, making me terrified of my own thoughts. But that. That voice that I developed completely ruled my life. I would stay quiet. I would stay silent. I would want to hide in the shadows. I would only want to be seen. When I knew that I could not be criticized, I wouldn't say anything until I knew I would be criticized. I wouldn't, you know, do anything until I knew that I would nail it. And that absolutely, like, ruled my life for, you know, about 30 years afterwards.
• 33:32
  Speaker A: Thank you for sharing, Phil Keone.
• 33:42
  Speaker D: Sorry, just getting my mute off. It's really humbling to hear you. It's really, really humbling. Lauren and Phil. Reno. Yeah, I mean, I find myself listening and nodding, and I also, you know, Reno, when you got in touch with me, this word bullying, I was like, oh, you know, I could feel the voice inside me, the now voice, kind of going, I don't feel like I'm being bullied. And then. And now it's kind of like peeling back layers of wall, you know, kind of going, oh, it's a really nice wallpaper that doesn't involve any bullying. And then going, oh, yeah, but what. Oh, yeah. You know, one of the biggest things for me, I think, as a. As a kid that I've been. I've been really kind of bringing into the light recently is how this. This. This sense of, you know, what it is about shame. And what I've realized is that we only need to be shamed once by someone else, only once. And once that's happened, there is something so viral, so contagious about the experience that we then take that on. We then take that on, and then we. We say that. We say all of that stuff to us. What's wrong with us? What's wrong with you? Are you doing. You're so weird. Oh, you're so. You're such a fag. Look at you. You know, and that. That was, for me, the way that bullying evolved initially as a. As kind of myself kind of. Yeah. You know, doing the bullies work for them. They don't have to do anything. Have to. All after that. Sorry.
• 35:26
  Speaker A: The.
• 35:27
  Speaker D: The next stage, you know, that I can. I can remember was.
• 35:33
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 35:33
  Speaker D: Working on what. What was my asset. What was the thing that I could pull on to. To. To stop. To stop the. The attacks. And. And for me, that, you know, that was. That was clowning, you know, that was like, okay, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be ridiculous before you can get me. I'm gonna. I'm gonna prattful before you can knock me over. And that, that, that was my way through the majority of high school. I was in a, like a state school in, in Cardiff, where I am now. And, and how that then evolved for me, you know, as a, as a defense mechanism, as a protection was kind of very much linked to any kind of substance use that I could find that would, that would fulfill that, that would just basically stop all of the, the rage and the, and the, and the upset, the confusion that all of, all of the real, you know, the, the wounding, any of the engagement with the wounding, just keep that all again as far away from me as possible. And so, yeah, whatever substances were working at the time, they, they were my, they were my go to. The interesting thing that also I can, I can remember then from a, from a sexualized point of view was the way that the bully that, that I would eroticize the bullying. How so powerfully these figures became.
• 37:13
  Speaker A: You.
• 37:13
  Speaker D: Know, like, like erotic charges. How anything that placed me in a position of powerlessness and placed whoever it was in a position of power, you know, how much charge there was behind that. It, and it was a huge, you know, and it did, you know, the, the, the tipping point for me was trying to take my life in when I was 26. And that was a real, you know, that was mostly because all the elastic had stretched as far as it could from, you know, trying to get away from, from what I was feeling. And, and once that had kind of snapped me, then it was like, okay, there's nowhere else to go but into this. This is, this is where it begins. So. Yeah.
• 38:13
  Speaker A: Ooh, yeah. Thank you for your, all your shares. I think it's safe to say that I am still navigating the long term effects of, of, of bullying and, and it feels like such an important, an important and honest thing to say, you know, at the ripe old age of 35. Right. And some of you who are older than me are probably rolling your eyes like, what are you talking about? But you know, even, even now, and just to paint a picture of, of how impactful we are, you know, we all are at 35, I'm still healing from the impacts of, you know, those experiences. What I, what I noticed was that it got easier to navigate those challenges when alcohol was introduced. You know, I started drinking at 13. I wanted to fit in and it seemed interesting and, and I continued to drink, you know, well into adulthood. Although back then, like you were getting wasted, you know, because that's, that's what you did in a Small town. And I forgot to add, I spent five and a half years of my life, like, so I grew up in government housing and, you know, and. And if you're familiar with government housing, those neighborhoods, they're. They're diverse, they're low income, and they come with their own unique set of challenges and characters. And so, you know, I had to be tough. And while I wasn't physically tough, as Phil had said earlier, at a way with words, my mom said something to me once. I remember she said to me. She said she moved us to this rural community that I'm about to mention because she was afraid that my sister would end up pregnant and me and my two brothers would end up in gangs. And I remember saying to my mom, I was like, you thought I would end up in a gang? And she said. I said, what would they want with me? Like, I'm skin and bones and way too cute and all of that. You know, why? Like, why would they want me? She said, reno, you would have been the ringleader. You know, like, you like you. They would want you for your brains, for your strategy, for your. You know, And I had totally written all that off. I wasn't even thinking about that. She's like, you'd be quietly running the show behind the scenes and no one would know. And I thought, wow, I never thought of that, you know. And so, you know, she moved us to this rural town, and I was the only black kid in my high school. And so it was kind of like out of the frying pan and into the fire. Like, at least there I had some friends. I had managed to befriend some of my bullies, and that was really interesting. And, you know, as. As Keoni had mentioned earlier, I had eroticize some of them as well. You know, it was like, oh, my bullies are so sexy. Which is like this crazy up thing, but also like, I totally get it, you know, and then I moved to this small rural town. I'm the only black kid in my high school. And again, that came with its own unique set of challenges. You know, there was racism, there was homophobia. You know, there was femin phobia. And I. Here I am trying to sort of do everything that I can to belong and fit in. So, you know, I'm going through this kind of wild identity crisis, which in a way, I think I carried into my adulthood. You know, it was like, who am I when I don't give a shit about what other people think? And I struggled to answer that question and find that person for, for years, you know, I struggled with an eating disorder as well, you know, because again, if we're going to talk bullying, sometimes it comes in the form of, you know, that, that, like, that, like, popular guy or girl in school who's like, really mean and, you know, obviously a bully to the bullying that I perceive we experience, like, socially and in the media, you know, it's, it's, it's covert, but it's there. And it followed me into adulthood, you know, hated my skin color, hated the way I looked, you know, was. Was struggled with bulimia and, and, you know, was. Was too skinny, wasn't skin enough, skinny enough, you know, was too black, wasn't black enough. Like, I mean, it was everything. And then, and then it also really affected my relationships to men. And I think people in general, I struggled with trust. I struggled with trust. And so my relationship to men was. I was either flirting with them, fucking them, or fighting with them, you know, the three Fs, because I didn't know how to have any other relationship with them really. You know, they were, they were friends sometimes. I'll. I think that's worth acknowledging. And they were probably confused in some cases as well, probably around, like, what. What is going on with this human. Well, what was going on with me was, you know, the after effects of like, dealing with everything that I had had gone through and reconciling with all of that. That's what was. That was. That's what was going on with me. And so, you know, well into adulthood. It. It affected my sex life, it affected my relational life, it affected my, you know, my identity. It affected how I moved in the world or didn't, you know, how I showed up in spaces or didn't. So. Ripples. Ripples. Ripples, ripples. Yeah. Yeah, I, I would say. I would say that about. That about covers it, you know, and I think one thing that I really want to say in this moment is that this is just the beginning of this conversation. You know, this is a. Is. It's a deep and, and timeless and nuanced and challenging conversation. And so I just want to acknowledge that in this moment that we're not going to cover it all, but let it be the beginning. Let it be an invitation, you know, to explore this topic further. You know, so I want to pose another question to you all, which is, you know, would. Would you say that you have healed from some of those experiences? And if so, what made that possible?
• 46:03
  Speaker B: So for me, like, my healing is always continual. Like, the journey of life is Always a journey, It's. It's always continuing. But I had like a come to Jesus moment, or come to divine moment, I should say, when was 26, and literally I was 26 years old and I was feeling like crap. I just. It was just not a good place. And how I started that process of healing is that I surrendered. I just surrendered and say, you know what? I cannot do this by myself. So I channeled my higher self, did not know what I was doing. You know, I believe in divine timing. I had someone that. That time that was in the shamanic world, that is still in the. That is in the shamanic world, because they are still in the shamanic world, basically talk to me and, you know, just kind of voice a couple of things like plant medicine, ayahuasca and peyote and just those types of plant medicines. And at first I kind of rejected it, but then I remembered a time where I felt. Felt the essence of the magic. It felt very different. It felt like I was being communicated by my higher self and accepted that invitation. And through that, through that experience, I was able to connect to, like, unconditional love. So this is the love that I've always been seeking for all my life. To be loved and not be considered as isolated or just of that kid that was adopted or just like I didn't want to be. I didn't want a label on top of me, right? So through that, I was able to connect with something that would allow me to start healing the wounds of all of the pain at that time. For 26 years. And, you know, there has been challenges with more work of doing this in the shamanic world. There is more challenges that come up. But for me, I. It allows me to kind of investigate and be curious and really build the faith within myself and the trust within myself to know that everything is going to be okay. Every experience in my life has been for divine purpose. And you know, I know you mentioned at the beginning of the call that, you know, I work in early care and education. The reason why I believe, and I've been told the reason why I do work with children is because I wanted to provide the safe haven to children that I did not have in the early years. I can honestly say right now on this call, in the last 17 years, I'm actually about to retire in December. And for 17 years, it has always been my mission to allow every child to come to school, to be safe and to be loved and to make friends. And I am so happy that I have been able to accomplish that mission. Because every child that I have had the privilege of supervising being part of my programs, they know that Mr. Warren cares about them and loves them. And it's just, it's amazing to see kids like 18 years old when they were babies. Right. So, yeah. So that's how I've been able to heal and that's how I've been able to, to. To give back to other people, to children is really doing the work on myself and asking the why questions. Like how. No, not the why questions, the how question. How can I be of service? How can I use my past experiences to be of service for people, those around me? And the answers are always revealed to me.
• 50:14
  Speaker A: Oh, beautiful. Thank you, Warren. Sending you so much love. Yeah.
• 50:21
  Speaker C: I, I think that's awesome. And I want to say that something that you just said, Warren really stuck with me and it's, you know, accepted the invitation and oftentimes I want to control everything because control helped get me through days safely. And I like to call myself now a reforming, control seeking enthusiast, because control freak, that's, that's very judgmental. So I say, you know, a control seeking enthusiast. And it is so hard for me to let go. To let go and accept what is, rather than hold on and create what I think should be. And for me, where I said a little earlier that, you know, I wanted to be perfect and I got really good at that. I got really good at saying the right things to the right people at the right time to get the right outcome and, you know, showing up in the right way, showing up in the world, doing the things that I thought everybody expected me to do and doing them well. The smile on my face and a whistle on my lips, I got really good at that. That. Right. And that strategy was awesome until it really wasn't. It like fell a. He fell in an absolute heap and I was staring down an abyss. And that abyss, for me, I now know, was loneliness. I did not know who I was, I did not know how I was. All I knew was that I was getting to my late 30s and I had done everything that was, I thought was expected of me. Got into a good university, did great there, got into a great job, was doing great in that was kicking goals, was doing all of the things, was living my dream. But I wasn't, I wasn't being me. I wasn't being me. And I did not want to be lonely. I really, I would have taken anything else, but loneliness just seems so sad, so needy, so clingy. But Warren, what you said, like I, I. That really resonated with me. Loneliness was my invitation. It was, it was. I don't know, call it what you will, like fate, divine intervention, like, whatever, whatever. But I did not want to accept it at all. I would, like, no, pass. No, no. I'm gonna try again when it, like, double down on perfection yet again, just in case this time I nail it. And yeah, my, like, the, the emptiness within me paying attention to that was the invitation. And that, the accepting the invitation, that was my loneliness helped me feel more connected to me, helped me heal, help me understand myself, helped me to love myself. It's the, the glorious up, like, amazingly weird human that I am and helped me begin to show up in the world as me. And then as Warren, you said, you know, in. In service, that was the key, like, going within helped me find, you know, who I am. God. That sounds like a Hallmark card, doesn't it? But, like, and it makes it sound so easy. But as, of course, as we know as humans, it's. It's really not easy, but it might not be easy, but almost always, I'm yet to think of an exception. It is worth. Is worth it because, like, you know, when we accept our own worthiness, there's. There's so much power in that.
• 55:17
  Speaker A: Thank you, Harbor. Thank you, Hallmark. Phil, that's beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing, Keoni.
• 55:30
  Speaker D: Yeah, I, I was really. I was really touched by a lot of what you said to Warren as well. I, I. And I found myself nodding as well to many things such as, you know, the, the power, the. The real power and the grace of the, of the shamanic path of, of connecting with, you know, my Celtic indigenous ancestors, connecting with the land, connecting with animals. I mean, one of the. One of the core practices for me within that process was connecting with my power, my power animal, and recognizing that my power was in animal form. To even have an appreciation that power wasn't even human, was elemental, was, Was raw, was. Was feline, was cat, was jungle, was sweat, was. All of these things that just moved me so much away from the kind of, the beige. The paradigm of, you know, like broadcast media, of soap operas, of, you know, all the rest of it. You know, it was. That was. That was just magic. I mean, it was magic. And. And that hasn't gone anywhere, you know, because. Because that's our divinity. That is. That is, for me, that is our existence as, you know, moments of the divine in. In conversation with ourselves all around. It's a practice. There's no. There's no Healed. You know, it's a practice as, as soon as you feel like something might be coming together, some other bit is falling apart. I mean, this is mortality. This is, you know, I'm, I mean, Reno. Bless you, baby. 35. I can't even remember 35. I think my skin was a lot flatter then. But, you know, I've just turned 50. I'm in the middle of my Chiron Returns. Like I am, I am back. I am literally speaking to you live from my childhood bedroom. And what's so fascinating about this conversation is that I've been really, you know, this was a, this was in the phrase of the Pet Shop Boys, the place I waited years to leave. And I. If you had said to me at any point before last year, you're going to spend your 50th birthday in your childhood bedroom, living there, I'd have be like, are you on glue? Like, this is never gonna happen. And it's been the most incredible experience because it's like, it's the spiral. You know, we're so, we've all of us, we're all of us, you know, kind of hard, almost kind of polluted with patriarchy, with this, you know, this, this huge model of kind of like a learning of how not to live for thousands of years, which we can dust off. But, you know, the spiral is reminding us that the nature of life is to return to exactly where we were and to witness transformation, to witness where we have been and how much has changed. And so there's something I think as well, psychologists talk about coming to the age of 49 is completing the seven, seven of the seven year cycles. And then you find yourself returning to the, to the core. And so this, for me, the Chiron Returns moment is coming back to the core wound and, and feeling what has, what has changed and, and I guess stepping into, stepping into the next, the next part. So, yeah, the healing is ongoing. I find myself, I find myself more vigilant about the voice inside me that wants or that, that knows as a default how to bully and meeting that voice with compassion, meeting that voice with grace, and then being able to extend that to every conversation, every encounter that is happening beyond. You know, we're at a time now where people's disempowerment and people's anger and pain and frustration is, is so palpable in so many places around, you know, people snapping and whether that's on social media or in a traffic jam, just, you know, just erupting and, and I feel like to be able for any and all of us, which is what's amazing about being part of this space here. But for any and all of us, to be able to move through that world and. And help to be in service. This has been said by both of you, Warren and Phil, to be in service to the collective, to. To help people find their power and find their way. Then, I mean, that's kind of what it is. No, it is not. And I think one more thing. I'm obsessed about Andrew Tate at the moment, but I'm also really intrigued as to how he seems to be doing the very opposite. He seems to be attempting to increase his personal power by removing power from others. So if nothing else, like, let. Let that be a model of maybe, you know, how we can do things differently, how we, you know, we can. We can all rise here. We can all help each other. Like no one. It doesn't have to come at anyone's expense for us to feel good about ourselves.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker A: Well, y' all have said it all.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker D: Wow.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker A: Wow. Yeah, it's. It's ongoing, you know, it's ongoing. It was said here. It's. It's ongoing. It's an ongoing journey. And it was said in a bunch of different ways, but there's. You know, there's. I. I love this quote. If you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what is within you will destroy you. Thank you, St. Thomas. That's it for me. And there's so much depth to that. That. That. That quote. What makes sense to me is that, you know, it has been through my willingness to. To enter the wound, to suck the poison out, to alchemize it and turn it into something beautiful. Love Service. You know, we named it here. That has been my healing. And so the very thing that was my hell has also become a gift in a way. And it feels so strange to say that, you know, especially if someone listening right now is still just, like, in the thick of it or is not there yet. It's like my heart. My heart, like, sincerely goes out to you, because I can remember so many times when, you know, people would say things like this to me, and I was just like, yeah, I get it. But, like, off, you know, I'm still in it. Leave me alone. So if you're feeling that way, you're not alone. Like, I. I've been there. And then. And then one day, when I least expect it, I'm like, oh, that's what mom was talking about. You know, it's like, oh, mom, always. Right? You know, But. But. But, yeah, yeah, It's. It's ongoing. And to be honest, like, I wouldn't trade nothing for my journey now. You know, it's like, it's beautiful. It's messy. It's beautiful. It's been hard, but it's great. It allows me to have conversations like this with amazing people like you. You know, this is what we're up to. And I think one of the biggest things that has supported me in this ongoing healing journey, you know, that that word journey is. Is at some point, the wisdom of maturity really kicked in, and it was like, oh, we're all just doing what makes sense to us in the moment. Always. We're only ever, always doing what makes sense to us in the moment, including myself. And so it was almost like. It wasn't like I was letting them off the hook, like, oh, it's okay that you did what you did to me. You know, it wasn't that. It was like, oh, right. Like we're kind of in the same club. Like, we're a different club, but, like, the same club. You know, it's like, I'm just doing my best. I'm just doing what made sense to me, what makes sense to me. You were just doing what made sense to you. You gave the love that you had available, you know, or whatever it was, you know, what was there was there, and that has really helped me just kind of let go and like I said, not let them off the hook, but let myself off the hook, you know, so that I could just like, get on and live and not continue repeating the same hurt over and over and over and over again, you know, because that, my friends, is the definition of insanity. And I have no interest in living in insanity. You know, I. I wish to live in the miraculous and the beautiful and the wonderful and the, you know, the juicy and the. Yeah, all of that. So, last question. I love that we find ourselves in a place of levity as we're approaching the end of this conversation. And if you're listening and you don't feel like you're there right now, that's also okay. Truly, sincerely, genuinely, it is all welcomed here, you know, and I think that itself is part of healing, is to welcome it all. So, the last question, and perhaps we'll keep the answers a little brief, but. But also equally authentic and sincere. What wisdom would you provide to someone who's navigating bullying or, you know, or sort of recovering from it?
• 1:06:45
  Speaker B: So, sorry. The advice the wisdom that I will provide is that it gets better. And I know that statement is being put. It can be thrown so many different ways. It gets better, it gets better. But experiences in my life has showed me that. Just like you were saying, we know, you know, experiences in my life has shown me that the people that were bullying me, it comes back in some type of form. So the people that were calling me faggot queer, this, that they have had a situation that in their lives that either they themselves realize their truth of being queer or whatever they were calling me, like they were utilizing their defense mechanism back then, or they have a loved one, like maybe a child or a parent or someone that has now come out. So those actions that they were doing at 12, 13 years old, they may not do it right now because someone in their bloodline is, you know, gay. Right? So, you know, the wisdom that I can just say is just unconditionally love yourself. You know, at the end of the day, what I had to realize is that, you know, when I make myself happy, when I love myself, like everything else doesn't matter, right? So everything, my power is controlled by the love that I give myself. Like, I'm the only person that can hold me to all of my goals and dreams. So when I continue just living in passion and love, yeah, I'm going to have all of this negativity around me. I cannot stop that. The only person that I can stop is myself believing in those lies. And when I'm embodying my truth and my authenticity, authenticity, that is my key. That is my permission to live my life to the fullest. That's my wisdom.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker C: I love that. I've got three pieces of advice. One is very practical. And if you find yourself in a situation where you are being bullied and that might be in the workplace, document it, document it, document it, document it. Do not rely on your own recollection of events afterwards, but document it, document it, document it. How you feel, how you felt like, what was said to the best of your recollection, times, dates, who was there, who could possibly witness it. But documented, documented, documented in an environment in workplaces where I have witnessed bullying, where I have been bullied, that stuff is gold. And it's hard to do when you're in the midst of it, but set aside some time. And essentially when you are being bullied at work, that feels like it becomes your job. And yeah, like, but, but do that. Secondly, if you are working through some, some issues and, and some trauma that have come up from being Bullied in your past or currently. And that might be capital T trauma or little T trauma. Trauma is trauma. Work with yourself, particularly if you are bullying yourself. You're calling, you're saying yourself, saying the most horrid things to yourself with love and curiosity. Because judgment rarely helps. Judgment rarely makes things better. But with love and curiosity, start working with yourself. And my last tip is you are always worthy of love and belonging right now, just as you are. And if you want, like, any kind of reminder of that, if you want me to put on a cheerleader's outfit and be your number one cheerleader, oh, my God. It is a privilege and an honor to do that, because your worthiness is never up for debate. It can never be up for debate. You cannot even question your own worthiness. It simply is. It's a fact. And then once we accept our worthiness for love and belonging, great things happen. But, like, take back that power and, you know, the bullies want to take that from you, but it's not yours to give to them. And they can't take it. But they're my three.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker D: I love that philosopher. Yeah, the bullies. The bullies can't. The bullies can't take it from you, but you can give them the power. So that. That's really, like, Just remember that, like, on a soul level, like, soul loss, soul theft, as it happens, is happening because we give something away, we agree to it on a soul level. And that might not make any sense. There's somebody hearing it right now. It might make sense to someone. What I found really helpful was dancing. I think dancing is pure, pure medicine. Whatever that dance is, if that dance is rocking on the floor, if that dance is cowering in a corner, if that dance is screaming and shrieking, whatever your dance is, wherever you are, dance it, dance it out. Go to the lip of the ocean and scream, roll around. Just allow yourself to be embodied in your body and feel that potency. And the other thing I'd say is what you're most frightened of right now, what terrifies you the most is your gatekeeper to your power. So feel it and go towards it. And. Yeah, and. And happy journey. How exciting. Like, at some point we stop breathing. Like everything's a bonus. That's all.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker A: That's all. Wow. Well, I guess in honor of threes, you know, number one, your experience is valid. Your experience is valid. Do you know how many times I encountered, you know, people? And fact, you know, quote, I. I use this quote, unquote, facts. And. And like, we're Familiar with the term gaslighting, Right? And if you're not, look it up, you know, but, like, what I have come to. To. To. To really learn and like and like and welcome is my capacity to feel and to, like, sense things, you know, beyond their facts and their righteousness and all of that. And that has become my superpower and my secret weapon when I'm moving through a world that would lead me astray and into the, the, the. The. The belief in the idea that I'm not enough, that I'm not worthy, that I'm not, you know, that I'm not worthy of love, that I don't have enough, that I'm not okay, that, that. That the behaviors that were enacted on me were somehow acceptable. It's like, absolutely not. You know, I know all I have to do is listen to my body, and I know it's not safe here. I. That something about what they're saying feels off. They're saying all the right things, but in my body, in my body, this does not feel accurate. I'm going to trust that and listen to that. That wisdom has been with me. It remains with me, and I trust it probably more than anything, anything other than. And. And they're. They're one in the same. I was going to say anything other than God, spirit, you know, divine mother, whatever you want to call it. Two, sanctuary, you know, I would say, like, find it outside in nature, cultivate it in your inner world. Spending time in space, that feels like sanctuary. External space and internal space. Cultivating an internal space like that. Godsend, you know, I thank God for my grandmother, for example, bless her heart, God rest her soul. She was sanctuary, you know, and because I learned what sanctuary felt like, I now continue to move in the direction of that, you know. And three, my mess is my millions, you know, your mess becomes your millions. It's like millions of lives changed, millions of dollars, millions of meaningful moments, you know, it's like that all came from that mess. My mess, you know, And I believe with all my heart and all my soul and all my experience that that is possible for. For everyone, you know, that is possible for everyone. Your mess is your millions. And with that, I want to say thank you, you know, from the bottom of my heart to, to you, Warren, to you, Keone, to you, Phil, for being here today, for participating in this conversation again. This is. It's the beginning, it's not the end. It's the beginning of this conversation. It's not the end. And below, if you're listening to this on podcasts or YouTube, there will be links to resources. If you're currently experiencing bullying or someone you know is currently experiencing experiencing bullying, you can use those links and those resources to reach out as well. We offered you some There was some great advice and guidance offered in today's conversation. We'll continue these discussions on the last Thursday of every month in the Gay Men's Brotherhood Zoom Hangout where you'll have a chance to share your own experiences. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported, so if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show Notes. You can also subscribe to the early access option on Apple Podcasts, Listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. All your support helps us continue making content for you and supporting our community, and we thank you in advance. And finally, if you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, check out our new coaching collection. Learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting instant access to 45 + premium personal development coaching videos created by us as well as our by us as well as our healing your shame and building better relationships courses. Head to gaymengoingdeeper.com for more info. And that concludes our conversation. Like I said, this is only the beginning. Thank you all for being with us today. We are sending you so much love and so much compassion. See you next time.