Latest / The Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast / Sustainable Business: How to Build a Better Future for People and Planet | Mark C. Coleman

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Sustainable Business: How to Build a Better Future for People and Planet | Mark C. Coleman · The Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast

0:00
We're uncertain on where the technology will bring us.
0:02
Advanced computing and the potential for AI has the propensity
0:07
for solving really difficult challenges
0:10
At the same time, it uses a lot of water.
0:12
It uses a lot of energy. A lot of communities don't want it their own backyard.
0:15
We don't want to repeat past mistakes and we also want to prevent future calamity,
0:19
whether that's environmental, ecological,
0:21
social, or otherwise.
0:23
There's a disconnect currently between the opportunity
0:27
and the community understanding.
0:28
It's not just the S-word sustainability in all its orientation.
0:32
What does quality of life mean to us as consumers and citizens?
0:36
And does it mean fresh air?
0:54
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast.
0:57
My name is Rick Meekins. I'm your host today,
0:59
and in our studio we have Mark Coleman.
1:01
How are you today, sir?
1:03
Rick, I'm doing fantastic. I'm so glad to spend some time with
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you here this afternoon. So thank you for having me on.
1:10
I'm excited about the show. This is gonna be absolutely amazing.
1:13
Audience, before we get into it,
1:14
I would be honored if you'd like,
1:15
subscribe, and hit the bell so you can get updates every time we drop a new episode.
1:19
And without further ado, let's get to it.
1:21
So Mark, we would love it if you would let our audience know who you are,
1:25
what you do, and why you do what you do.
1:28
Yeah, thank you so much. hopefully they find it interesting.
1:31
Ha ha ha.
1:32
But it's all
1:32
good. We so, you know, Rick, my background is multifaceted.
1:37
Currently I'm doing a lot of work in the management consulting space.
1:40
That's where I've spent, you know,
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25 years of a career in terms of working across multiple sectors,
1:46
multiple disciplines. And it's given me a background where I can be
1:50
an advisor both to early stage entrepreneurial endeavors as well as,
1:54
you know.
1:55
mid-market companies or large enterprise.
1:58
And I found stimulation in all of it throughout my career.
2:00
So I sp you know professionally,
2:02
you know, where I spend a good deal of my time is in that management consultant
2:05
space, particularly focused on the topics of corporate sustainability,
2:10
business and sustainable enterprise,
2:13
and really how the entity of entrepreneurial activities can improve upon
2:19
the state of affairs in the world in meaningful ways.
2:22
that's where I kind of have my passion.
2:23
That's where I like to spend a lot of my advisory time helping coach,
2:27
mentor organizations that are really trying to navigate all the complexity
2:31
of the world and bring it into full focus in terms of how they
2:34
can create better value in the world that they serve.
2:37
outside of that, I'm a husband,
2:39
I'm a father. I do some adjunct teaching at the university level
2:42
at Syracuse University, topically on sustainable enterprise
2:46
for undergraduate and graduate students.
2:48
I've published four books. I get a lot of stimulation out
2:50
of my extracurricular activities.
2:52
I'm on the board of some smaller enterprise and you know,
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just love also living life, spending time with my family,
2:58
being outdoors, and you know, continuing to learn and grow.
3:01
but that kind of encapsulates me in a quick,
3:03
quick snapshot here.
3:05
Wow, you you sound extraordinarily busy,
3:07
my goodness.
3:08
It sounds busy, but there are
3:10
days I'll tell you that, you know,
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you might say, Don't you have anything better to do?
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But
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Ha ha ha ha.
3:15
no. Yeah, I and and to that point I really,
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you know, it's good to find time to rest the mind,
3:21
you know, heal the body. I'm as I'm getting older,
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I'm finding that such a necessity in terms of refueling the tank.
3:27
there is a lot of busyness in life and there is a lot of
3:31
built in activity in terms of my professional endeavors,
3:34
like many other people. but I also find it necessary.
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In fact, right this afternoon I I found it necessary to break away to go
3:41
to the gym and it's both a a mental exercise as well as a physical one.
3:45
but as I'm getting older here,
3:46
it's just a necessary maintenance opportunity just to to stay sane,
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but also stay healthy.
3:51
You know, I you you have this you have this thread,
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you know, through all that you all of your description where
3:56
you talked about sustainability.
3:58
I think that sometimes I think as entrepreneurs,
4:02
you know, we we don't necessarily fully appreciate,
4:05
you know, what what that means and what the what the impact is.
4:09
And I would love it if you could talk to us a little bit about that,
4:11
why why we need to think about that.
4:14
Yeah, thank you. I it's a great question.
4:16
It gets to the heart of one of the classes that I teach actually as well.
4:19
And it becomes an evergreen topic in many ways.
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And partly because I'll frame it this way.
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A lot of my students, a lot of even active folks within industry that
4:30
I might advise, get to the crux of the question by saying,
4:32
What is a s sustainable? How do we demonstrate sustainability,
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even though there's rankings and there are
4:38
you know, frameworks out there that give guidance and credence to what
4:42
a sustainable product or sustainable organization may be.
4:45
How do we a society or an enterprise ever really determine what sustainability is?
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And so without those boundary conditions,
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how do we actually lean into something that feels opaque and maybe a little
4:55
of a gray area, particularly at the end of the day when we need to
4:58
be profitable and sometimes we hear that doing these things that might
5:02
be sustainable might cost us more money.
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And
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Mm.
5:05
so
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That's entangles a lot of complexity within your question and I
5:10
can address any aspect of it. but at the heart of it,
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I think is value creation. I think when we think of sustainability,
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what we're doing is we're listening to the heart of what is the opportunity
5:22
for the particular customer. Very classic definition of entrepreneurship,
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you know, driving profitability and economic opportunity predicated on some kind
5:31
of market need, maybe even a market failure.
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In the case of sustainability,
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it's really no different, but we might be looking at it through that lens
5:38
of environmental consciousness,
5:40
social responsibility, impact,
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and even resilience within a world that has a lot of risk factors
5:47
and resilience being a multifaceted aspect of not only a build business operations
5:54
and continuity, supply chains,
5:56
but also in the wake of you know a changing physical environment and
6:00
how that may impact the business at large.
6:02
both small and large. And so when we think of sustainability,
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it has to my personal belief, and I think many colleagues and professionals
6:09
I work with, it's had an enormous arc over twenty,
6:13
thirty, forty years. But make no mistake,
6:15
conceptually sustainability has been around for thousands of years
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and with prior civilizations, contextually and how humanity
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has reconciled the ideals of both survivability coupled with
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the opportunity around being able to thrive as a species.
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and then and we can get into very specific examples of how we've done that
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in terms of sustainability, but also how that is fraught with new challenges
6:39
as we advance as a civilization and bring new technologies
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and new opportunities into our space.
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For example, if artificial intelligence is a great one to pick on,
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it's timely, it's in the news,
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it's fraught with a lot of both challenge but also opportunity.
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On one hand, we can look at AI as a doomsday scenario where
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We're uncertain on where the technology will bring us.
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Even on any of the news channels today,
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there's there's a lot of commentary pertaining to how these advanced models have
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circumvented certain systems and maybe taking control of cybersecurity concerns
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or getting out in front of our ability to put the guardrails up from an ethical,
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moral perspective on how AI is manifested and used.
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At the same time, we acknowledge that.
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Advanced computing and the potential for AI has the propensity
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for solving really difficult challenges that might take our human minds,
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you know, years, maybe decades to really get to drug discovery,
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you know, finding cures for cancer,
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discovering ways to engineer new products or services in a way that maybe
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we we couldn't conceive of before,
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and other things.
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At the same time, the operational context of AI tells us that it uses
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a lot of water. It uses a lot of energy.
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A lot of communities don't want it their own backyard.
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It has the not in my backyard NIMBYism related to prior technologies like nuclear
8:05
energy. And some of us are familiar with that from prior decades
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and how technology is brought forward in certain communities.
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So all that to say it's sustainability through that lens of technology
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and where humanity is continuing to grow is always kind of a swinging pendulum,
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if you will.
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On one hand, we're thinking of it as opportunistic,
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it can solve some of our grand challenges,
8:24
but it's not without its challenges and getting us there either,
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in terms of how we just our design intent,
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how we manifest that design intent,
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and what value it's serving of society.
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So
8:35
Mm.
8:36
as a someone who looks at this from a broad perspective and tries
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to remain independent but thoughtful,
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I look at AI and say, we should have a certain amount of
8:44
Policy-driven ethical, moral guardrails around this technology,
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because there's so much we don't know in terms of how it's unfolding
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and how quickly and what that might mean for humanity and what I call common sense
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for the common good, the ability for this to really be a technology that
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is serving of humanity, not just a few,
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from a profitability point of view.
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on the flip side of that, I think we have to acknowledge the fact that,
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We we we we certainly can lean into this if we put the right mindset to
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it and the right intentionality around design.
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And for example, if we were lending this towards drug discovery with
9:20
the right boundary conditions and saying that what drug discovery comes
9:24
out of that benefits all of humanity and therefore there's a lane
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by which industry can learn, grow,
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innovate, and offer new solutions,
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that becomes something that becomes more controllable to a certain extent.
9:37
Not entirely, but to a certain extent in terms of how it might manifest social
9:42
impact for society. We could lend
9:44
Mm.
9:44
it towards solving climate crisis or looking at climate resilience or looking
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at how do we mitigate greenhouse gases in unique ways.
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although there's still a service cycle to AI in terms of
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its operational impact there too,
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that we have to work through. so that swinging pendulum is there
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for all technologies, all products and services.
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Sustainable enterprise allows us to look at that lens and say,
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where can we have a pragmatic impact in the moment?
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My latest book, I titled Planet Pragmatism,
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partly for this point of view.
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Sustainability can be something that we look out into the future
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and future generations, and it should be something that we have a,
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I believe, a broad goal as humanity to always doing better and thinking about
10:28
and considering our children, our children's children,
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and
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you know, six, seven generations out in terms of what our impact may be.
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But at the same time, we do have to take care of those needs and our quality
10:38
of life here in the moment today,
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which is challenged by many different things.
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So that sense of pragmatism is anchored by both our wisdom,
10:46
but also our ability to be preventive,
10:49
predictive, and proactive in the moment so that we can actually make moves that make
10:54
sense for for society. So so that was a lot I said,
10:57
but but what I come back to is
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Who is the customer? What's the need?
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And what's the value that can be created?
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And so when you have a broad technology,
11:06
something like AI, that's just thrown out to the universe without a broad,
11:10
without a very specific customer use case.
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And now those are being created as we speak here,
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but without a very specific use case and a huge impact upstream associated with it's
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how it's brought online and the intentionality is not fully known.
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It's going to create distrust within society and within certain segments
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of how we think about it being manifested.
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So it's so it's
11:32
Mm, mm.
11:33
ripe, in my opinion, for ongoing public discourse,
11:37
perhaps conditions for regulatory and policy review,
11:40
and more clear cut business cases in terms of how it's brought to society.
11:45
Sustainability in that mindset would say what is that true value and
11:49
how can we optimize that value in the here and now and acknowledge that.
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We don't want to repeat past mistakes and we also want to prevent future calamity,
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whether that's environmental, ecological,
11:59
social, or otherwise.
12:01
Mm, mm-hmm mm. You know, I I I I th I think I've become a little bit a bit jaded,
12:07
you know, with this with this conversation,
12:08
you know, thinking about like data centers and you know and and all of that
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and and you know at times it seems like those regulatory you know,
12:16
regulating bodies, you know, aren't
12:19
always acting in the best interest of you know the the end customer.
12:24
you know I think about you know the FDA sometimes and I I shouldn't do that.
12:28
Anyway, you know and it's it's it's it's it's difficult to it's it's d
12:33
I think I speak for a lot of people when I say it's very difficult to trust
12:38
you know those bodies to do what they're supposed to do.
12:41
So if we were to take this down to you know a you know a local level.
12:47
You know, and say, you know, looking at you know,
12:49
an organization, I don't know,
12:50
that, you know, cleans up swamps or or something like that.
12:52
I mean, what is the when we look at the i the the econom the economics behind that
12:58
around that, it's like what is what is the what is that purpose?
13:01
What is that drive? How do how do we make sense of that type of work that's
13:07
not necessarily going to generate
13:10
obviously I should say, you know,
13:12
generate generate revenue for that organization to continue or how d how
13:16
do they how do they become sustainable as an organization?
13:20
There's so there's a couple of things I that I'm hearing you say that w
13:25
one is the community interface,
13:26
which is important to me. And that's not the exact question you asked,
13:29
but I want to touch on it because it and it because I touched on this in the book,
13:33
we can't leave it exclusively in the hands of I'll put it in quotes here
13:37
big government, big tech, you know,
13:39
big industry to solve all of our problems,
13:42
even with the best intentions under what sustainability or sustainable enterprise
13:47
or sustainable policy.
13:49
could or couldn't be. The
13:50
Mm-hmm.
13:51
the third leg of this stool, so to speak,
13:53
which has been given more credence in recent years by social media,
13:58
a digital culture, and our ability to have more real-time data information
14:02
has been citizens and consumers and community and our ability
14:06
Right.
14:06
to be both citizen scientists who project our values through the lens
14:12
of new technology and being able to have a greater power and voice than ever before.
14:16
And
14:17
I think this ideal that's something that we've we've distanced ourselves from
14:20
for a little bit, but I think it's coming full back,
14:22
full full back in terms of a pendulum swing in terms of the past
14:26
few years around community engagement and not necessarily from
14:29
a politicalized perspective. It's more of a this is my community.
14:33
I'm ingrained in this community.
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I have a I have a vested interest in protecting my family,
14:40
my neighbor, and the values that we uphold within the context of whom we are.
14:45
And that community should have every right within its own authority,
14:50
regulating bodies and and district,
14:53
if you will, to determine what they feel prosperity means to them.
14:57
And that's why,
14:57
Mm-hmm.
14:57
by the way, Rick, in this latest book,
14:59
I don't title the book anything around sustainability.
15:03
I reframe it as prosperity because in my mind,
15:06
sustainability is a lens.
15:08
But what we are being challenged with as citizens,
15:11
consumers, and everything else,
15:13
big business, small business, big government,
15:15
local government, communities,
15:16
and everything else is reconciling as Americans,
15:20
and not just Americans, but I think a global context around citizenship.
15:24
What
15:24
Mm.
15:24
does prosperity mean in the 21st century?
15:26
It's not this old adage of a romanticized version of what prosperity might look
15:33
like through the lens of, you know.
15:36
a certain type of house, a couple cars,
15:38
a certain type of family living situation or anything else,
15:40
it's fundamentally been shifted on its head and each individual
15:44
and each community is reconciling what prosperity means right now in the moment
15:47
Mm.
15:48
and where it could be in the future.
15:50
And so with that said, I think the responsibility for citizens and consumers
15:54
to take community action becomes integral to sustainable action,
15:59
but also how we redefine, recast prosperity in the moment.
16:03
Some communities, so to get back to the heart of your question,
16:06
some communities may favor not just data centers but other types
16:10
of industry within their backyard because they find that as a pathway towards their
16:14
sense of prosperity. Others
16:16
Mm.
16:16
may say, Hold on, I'm not picking on any type of community specifically,
16:21
but we value our natural resources dearly.
16:24
We don't think this type of operation makes sense due to its water consumption.
16:28
We already are water challenged,
16:29
perhaps.
16:30
We have scarcity issues, maybe we're energy strapped and we're already paying high
16:34
prices. And for what we see, this may not be a solution that fits us.
16:38
There's a disconnect currently between the opportunity
16:42
and the community understanding.
16:44
And a lot of that is based upon that nexus of distrust between
16:47
how it's getting positioned by larger government,
16:51
larger corporations and tech, and these localized communities that have very deep
16:55
entrenched views as they should about
16:57
Mm-hmm.
16:59
what their sense of prosperity should be.
17:00
So there's a disconnect in that conversation.
17:02
It's not
17:02
Mm-hmm.
17:03
just more money. It's not just lower tax rate.
17:06
It's not just being able to have greater energy affordability.
17:10
It runs deeper than that. As you pointed out,
17:12
they just don't want a company coming in and in a sense taking advantage
17:16
of their resource base, including talent,
17:18
and then kind of stepping out and it's a a vacant operation and just leaving kind
17:23
of a a longer term liability perception wise or or in reality.
17:28
there in their backyard. ~
17:29
Mm.
17:30
so companies, company some companies are doing a better job
17:34
at articulating and actually having a conversation with communities around that core
17:39
question of what is prosperity and how can we aid in that discovery.
17:42
there are things that specific within the data center industry if we want
17:46
to focus on that, but other industrial applications fit this modality as well,
17:50
where there are true opportunities to reduce energy consumption.
17:54
have greater circularity of water,
17:56
reduce resource requirements, and offer a greater economic benefit to the community.
18:01
not every company is taking that stance.
18:03
It is a little bit of wild west,
18:04
fast and furious out there in certain markets and territories,
18:07
to just kind of descend and build as quickly as possible.
18:11
But that type of build ultimately is short-sighted and and will lead
18:16
to I think constrained sustainability.
18:19
as well as limited prosperity,
18:21
in my personal opinion and judgment,
18:23
on certain communities. ~
18:24
Mm-hmm.
18:25
so I think what we need to get to is back to what I would say a more balanced
18:30
and principled approach to how we can actually bring these conversations forward.
18:34
They're complex. there are right or wrong in my view,
18:37
points of view around morality and ethics and where we go in the future.
18:41
But sometimes those points are sidelined in the image of just wanting
18:45
to have economic
18:46
growth in the near term. And I think what we need to do as a society,
18:50
particularly here domestically,
18:52
is get back to really having civil discourse around what are we trying
18:56
to stand up for what purposes and values?
18:58
How does that align with our civil construct of prosperity and where we're going
19:03
as a humanity, but also as local communities and people who are stewards
19:07
of our environment. And then how do we bring in industrial base
19:10
and government to have to be a partner,
19:12
not just somebody who's coming into
19:15
guide or drive policy or regulatory concerns just kind of because they're needed,
19:20
but because they're truly a partner where if something does go awry,
19:23
they have our back and vice versa.
19:24
~
19:25
Mm.
19:26
I believe we've lost sight of that over the past 20,
19:28
30 years. And there is no other time than now,
19:32
particularly with the advent of advanced technology like AI,
19:35
for us to be having conversations like this in more meaningful ways.
19:38
And kind of I I know a lot of people don't like to hear it on the industrial side,
19:41
but hit pause for just a moment.
19:44
have the constructive conversations,
19:46
let the community be part of the ideation process in terms of how we look
19:50
at the intentionality of the the facility,
19:53
the role the community can play,
19:55
what the future outlook looks like,
19:57
what end of life for this looks like for the community as well.
20:00
Many industrial sector sectors have suffered from this.
20:04
We've, you know, the the phrase rust belt is well known,
20:07
right? In certain states and regions of the United States,
20:09
or where
20:10
Yeah.
20:10
industry or energy have had their
20:13
their heydays and now there's a glut in terms of environmental blight,
20:17
industrial zones that are have been depleted,
20:21
marginalized communities that fell victim to,
20:24
you know, a growth, but then also a a a an epidemic decline.
20:28
here in Syracuse, New York, we have that,
20:30
you know, in spades in many different ways from an industrial past
20:33
and and other other conditions.
20:35
And and so do other parts of the country.
20:37
So we have the wisdom
20:40
Past decisions that were not very good,
20:42
but also the foresight to see where the future's going.
20:47
And now we have to dial it into this sense of pragmatism in terms of how
20:51
do we make really good decisions in the moment that is preventing past mistakes,
20:55
optimizing for right now, but also acknowledging that we don't have all the answers,
21:00
but we do have to have the necessary backstops in place if we do get it wrong.
21:03
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So how I mean,
21:06
how do we do that? I mean, you know,
21:07
in in my mind, you know, I think a community,
21:10
I think the foundation of a community is having a shared vision.
21:13
You know, I mean obviously we can't
21:14
Absolutely.
21:15
get everybody on, you know, the exact same train,
21:17
but I mean it's it's like if we're if we're when I look at my team,
21:22
we have a shared vision of what we want to accomplish.
21:25
I have their best interests in mine and whatever whatever er opportunity I can.
21:30
You know, there I can't, you know,
21:32
meet everybody's expectations all the time,
21:34
you know, but I do the best that I can.
21:36
You know, and sometimes when I look at you know,
21:39
these city council meetings and and that sort of thing,
21:41
you know, I I see the opposite of that.
21:44
You know, I see where the city council may have an agenda,
21:47
you know, walking into the room and they're not listening to the citizens,
21:50
you know, which says to me that there's not a shared vision there.
21:53
You know, and that and that's a problem.
21:55
You know, I mean that's that's that's the opposite of of I mean,
22:00
in my mind, I mean, you know, citizens are trying to survive,
22:03
you know.
22:05
And and it's being stolen from them in a way.
22:08
We have to I think we have to ask ourselves to partly answer your question,
22:11
what does a shared vision, including in government,
22:15
look like? Meaning I'm of the belief that yes,
22:18
there's a forum vis-a-vis the council meeting,
22:21
the committee meeting, et cetera.
22:23
I participate in committee meetings.
22:25
We don't on certain types of extracurricurriculars I have,
22:29
we don't get a lot of voices of the customer or the community necessarily,
22:32
right? Unless
22:33
Mm-hmm.
22:33
it's really something that's
22:35
striking a chord with a s particular constituency.
22:38
So my question back to all of us conceptually is where are we?
22:43
We we've become kind of the old you know the proverbial armchair quarterback,
22:47
you know, sitting back, watching,
22:48
we're pontificating, we're
22:50
Mm-hmm.
22:51
frustrated, we we every range of emotion.
22:54
But are we taking the necessary actions that are within
23:00
our purview and our ability to influence in an appropriate way?
23:05
day in and day out. So so I I'll give you a metaphor here,
23:07
but I'll make it concrete. my my my father in law loved dearly,
23:11
passed away years ago. he was a politician.
23:14
He sat in the city council. He was also active in Irish politics.
23:17
he would love the idea and and did of sitting on the front porch
23:21
and talking with his neighbors,
23:23
anybody who came up, right? Very welcoming.
23:24
You know, he would hold court there.
23:26
You know, people would give him ideas,
23:27
they would come on, you know, all his buddies,
23:29
all that good stuff.
23:31
Lots great conversations. And I remember sitting there a few times,
23:34
kind of just sitting back, absorbing,
23:36
watching this kind of magic, you know,
23:38
transpire. And it dawned on me one day that this was a safe place.
23:42
This was a place where people could say what they wanted.
23:44
~ they
23:44
Mm-hmm.
23:45
could take their hat off literally and proverbially and voice their opinion
23:49
and talk about the woes of the day or pontificate on what the promise
23:53
of the future could be. But it was that safe place also where
23:57
not every individual there put their hat back on.
24:00
And carry that same sense of conviction to whom they were as a father,
24:04
a mother, a brother, a you know,
24:06
a CEO, a member of the council,
24:09
an engineer with a city, anything else,
24:11
right? They kind
24:11
Mm-hmm.
24:12
of design engineered it there,
24:14
but they never carried through that conviction to the rest of their life.
24:17
So, in a metaphor,
24:17
Mm.
24:18
you know, I I wrote this piece eight years ago,
24:21
but are you or are we a front porch politician?
24:24
So it's nice to pontificate, but at some point we have to get off
24:28
our butts and actually get out there and actually
24:30
make sure that that conviction that resides within us that we may stay
24:34
at the dinner table on the front porch or with our friends at the
24:36
gym or wherever carries through to our daily actions as teachers,
24:40
as educators, as
24:41
Mm.
24:42
city council members, as anybody else.
24:44
I I know dearly people in politics,
24:47
who sit on legislatures, who sit on city councils and other things,
24:51
and they are influenced and they do have a conflict in terms of multiple points
24:55
of view that are coming at them.
24:57
And I and I feel for them in many ways,
24:59
but the public has to do our part and not just put these folks on a pedestal
25:03
and say you're getting the answer right or wrong or you're voting in favor or not.
25:07
We have to educate them. We have to be visible.
25:11
We have to follow up with them,
25:12
whether it's on the front porch in the gym or or in person at
25:16
the formal committee meeting. We have to be able to acknowledge let them know that
25:21
we can be seen, we can be heard.
25:23
But we can also be civil in that process.
25:25
The other
25:25
Mm.
25:26
thing I'll say here around these lines is that a lot of the public,
25:29
by virtue of social media and other mechanisms,
25:32
has become uncivil. We've become unhinged from the process,
25:36
right? We want immediate gratification and we don't like it when our leaders
25:40
and the community and elsewhere aren't kind of acting in in accordance with what's
25:45
playing out in our mind. And so we'll leverage these tools in a way that
25:48
can be a little, not a little,
25:50
a lot.
25:51
demeaning or continue to breed distrust or continue to put divide between
25:56
the conversation unnecessarily.
25:58
I think we need to get back to like we're doing right here,
26:01
have earnest face-to-face conversations,
26:03
let the people know what our concerns are,
26:05
and and go from there. I know I'm saying a lot.
26:09
I also would say that there's many in this space on the political side that need
26:14
to be better stewards of their community with regards to not just showing
26:17
up at the council meetings and reading their notes and
26:19
And having the agenda and doing their thing,
26:21
kind of the
26:21
Mm-hmm.
26:21
stamp of approval. I love those that are actually on the beat,
26:25
getting on the ground, holding constituent meetings and,
26:28
you know, really getting a flavor for what's going on and what the voice
26:31
of the customer, what the voice of the community really is.
26:33
That's where change happens. That's where ideas get thrown out,
26:36
that's where you know, the future is transpiring.
26:39
So the future is not this off in the distance thing that we hope will be better and
26:45
particularly in my point of view,
26:46
how when we talk about prosperity or sustainability.
26:49
If
26:49
Yeah.
26:49
we leave it to others, our local elected officials,
26:52
the CEO of the local company or the big corporate entity or the the leader
26:58
of the free world or anybody else,
26:59
we're failing ourselves, we're failing our families.
27:02
Yes, we have the power to vote.
27:03
Yes, we have the ability to make a purchase with our pocketbook and vote that
27:08
way from a from a capitalistic point of view and many,
27:11
many other things.
27:13
but at some point we can't just leave that future decision unto others.
27:16
We have to have an active voice and be influencing the process.
27:19
And that's something I think we've my personal opinion,
27:21
we've shied away from and certainly need to do more of that at that level
27:25
of activism. And and ultimately that's being a good community steward
27:29
and citizen by virtue of playing that role.
27:32
Yeah, I I d I don't disagree with that.
27:33
I I don't disagree with that. I I remember as a as a younger person,
27:36
my my parents, you know, would go to the the meetings,
27:39
you know, at the school and that sort of thing.
27:41
I I wonder though, in I and I don't want to make excuses,
27:45
but I wonder though if there's a different way,
27:48
you know, that we could get this,
27:50
you know,
27:51
we can get greater I'll just use the term,
27:53
you know, greater representation with the way that people work now.
27:57
You know what I'm saying? So we've got people that are,
27:59
you know, basically on their job for ten hours a day,
28:02
you know, between driving to get there,
28:04
et cetera, et cetera, you know,
28:06
dealing with children, et cetera.
28:07
So I mean, there's there's a lot going on,
28:08
a lot more going on in our lives now than there were when when we were growing up,
28:13
you know, as younger people, you know,
28:15
and I don't know that I wonder
28:18
about the the education, you know,
28:21
that younger generations have about being involved in these conversations.
28:25
You know, and so if there's and so because society has changed,
28:29
I wonder if we need to reevaluate the mechanism that enables people
28:34
to be involved in these community conversations.
28:38
great i don't have the answer for it necessarily i think what you're raising
28:41
is truly insightful and i and i and i i think it butts up against the idea
28:46
too that we have a technology base for better or worse that also could enable that
28:52
right in meaningful ways there's other ways that we could
28:55
be having these conversations drawing information from people having town halls some
29:00
of that is used and and capitalized upon but how that information gets
29:05
Aggregated how that story gets told and how that narrative gets spun becomes
29:10
an important factor in all that as well.
29:12
So again, I think even with the ease or mechanisms by which
29:16
we could perhaps crowdsource and make it easier for individuals
29:20
who have constraints in their lives to maybe not be as active of
29:23
a participant as others, I think we all have to be truly mindful too that
29:26
we still need to be listening,
29:28
we still need to be engaging when the time comes,
29:30
because sometimes our words get
29:33
Twisted or changed, right? or we still may not feel fully represented even though
29:37
we've done our survey or sent a text message in or whatever mechanism might be,
29:42
you
29:42
Mm-hmm.
29:43
know, deemed appropriate for a certain type of engagement.
29:46
I would never want to see in a situation where my,
29:49
you know, again, a point a personal point of view where we're taking broad
29:53
perspective across the community and just assuming that that's what everybody wants
29:58
just because it was easy for somebody to click a button,
30:00
you know. ~
30:01
Yeah.
30:02
I
30:03
I I think there's 'cause again,
30:04
there's gonna be things lost through the cracks there and it it and and again,
30:08
hence I think the nature of democratic politics,
30:11
a democracy type of politics here in the United States in terms of
30:16
how we've how we've brought it forward.
30:18
I think the idea of citizen engagement is always been there,
30:21
has remained, it's still very active.
30:23
but I think you're raising a point here which is
30:27
was is right on some of the mechanisms by which we've leveraged in the past
30:31
are can be broken and we need to we need to modify them,
30:34
shift them or or think about doing things differently to to truly bring about,
30:39
you know, the the ideals of of whom we are,
30:41
our sense of community and where we're going.
30:43
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
30:44
Good stuff. Good stuff. let's change topics real quick.
30:47
~
30:48
Yeah.
30:48
I'm excited to hear your thoughts around social enterprises.
30:52
That's something that's always been something I've all I've always thought of.
30:55
I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.
30:57
What are they and you know,
30:59
Yeah.
30:59
what are the benefits?
31:01
Yeah. So I I think I love social enterprise.
31:05
I've been you know, teaching this for a few years and also an active steward
31:10
of it in terms of some of the entrepreneurial activities I've done.
31:13
I think where social enterprise fits in is where there's market failures,
31:18
where there's opportunity or gaps where,
31:20
you know, entrepreneurship or capital markets at at large haven't fully fulfilled
31:26
opportunities within our communities,
31:28
locally or or
31:30
globally. and I think it's ripe for I think a lot of new innovation
31:34
in terms of being able to help younger people identify pathways
31:40
for growth and discovery that,
31:43
you know, really, really are are are always there,
31:46
but they're working through the challenges in their own community
31:50
and often don't see those challenges as pathways for creating something
31:53
new or or innovating a structure that
31:56
That can bring economic prosperity as well as social change within
32:00
the communities in which they live or work.
32:01
So the opportunity, I think, is just plentiful.
32:04
it becomes localized, it becomes unique to certain geographies and
32:09
and in certain areas of the country.
32:11
I think it really becomes something that can be designed by the people themselves.
32:16
And I I think the structure is there for people just to adopt and be able to.
32:21
lean into it and solve challenges where others can.
32:24
~
32:24
Mm-hmm.
32:25
and it by the way, I I'm glad you bring this up on the hails
32:28
of our prior conversation because social entrepreneurship in my mind
32:32
is why it's beginning to and it has been for a while,
32:34
but while it's continuing to grow in terms of philanthropic giving
32:38
or true business models that are driving revenue within that space
32:42
and offering economic pathways that look more like entrepreneurship,
32:45
not just a
32:47
not for profit-based organization,
32:49
which also has its enormous place in in in social impact as well,
32:53
~
32:53
Mm-hmm.
32:54
is partly because other institutions haven't done their job fully or have failed.
32:58
it's also because some of the services that society requires
33:02
are growing exponentially and we can't be all things to everyone everywhere,
33:06
unfortunately. And our some of the systems are broken,
33:08
some are very constrained. So that lens of social entrepreneurship
33:12
and social impact,
33:13
becomes a powerful tool that we can fill those voids,
33:17
create an incredible meaning in the process of doing that,
33:20
and offer scale and replicability that could be brought to other communities
33:23
or around the world through some of those pathways as well.
33:27
Mm mm. What was one of your favorite projects?
33:30
I like so here locally, I love one that's focused on circularity
33:35
of clothing and looking at pathways for giving clothing to local school districts
33:41
and often other opportunities where people in the community might whether they're
33:47
homeless or just in need.
33:49
having a a circularity opportunity where people aren't just throwing their clothes
33:52
away. it offers a pathway for people to have clothing where perhaps they couldn't
33:58
afford it, perhaps they didn't have access to it.
34:00
I see it in the college community where students are offering this
34:03
as an enterprise where they're getting out in the community,
34:06
being a part of it. they're supporting their local K through 12 high schools
34:11
or middle schools.
34:12
And they're leveraging a a resource base that perhaps they had
34:16
the opportunity to attain, but also feel like it's something that they
34:19
can offer to give back. And there's many cases around that in the community that
34:24
are both focused on what I would say formal non-for-profit structures
34:28
as well as student-based social enterprise and impact
34:31
and other community-based organizations that are all part of that fabric.
34:35
And whether it's whether it's foods and food pantries to clothing to
34:40
other things, it truly has a local impact in terms of how these social impact
34:46
organizations are operating both cohesively together and individually
34:50
in their own right through specific verticals in the community and
34:54
on how they're they're offering that.
34:56
some are driven by donations,
34:59
some are driven on an economic bottle,
35:01
just offering clothes at lower cost.
35:03
~
35:03
Mm.
35:03
so some are just true, pure giving.
35:06
So it's
35:07
it it covers every aspect of the the social enterprise and in my mind,
35:11
not that it meets the needs of everybody everywhere.
35:14
it's attempting to, you know, stratify,
35:16
I think, all different situations in the community in a meaningful way.
35:19
so so that's one I I I love because I see we often have design competitions
35:25
at the university as an example where we're doing the sustainable
35:28
and social impact you know competitions and
35:34
Without fail, you know, there's a couple of these that come up every year
35:37
in the image of of what I'm describing.
35:39
And they're always iterating on their model and finding unique ways
35:42
to drive partnerships, create new revenue streams and offer greater impact
35:46
to the community. So I they're they're becoming more sophisticated
35:49
in their orientation. the next generation I think I love because they have
35:54
the tools on the technology side,
35:56
they have the passion and the heart.
35:58
and they also ha I think have the business acumen by which they're standing
36:02
up these enterprises in really meaningful ways.
36:04
And it gives me great hope on on our future.
36:07
Mm mm, that's exciting. That's exciting.
36:09
I w it was interesting because I was just thinking about like,
36:11
you know, the the revenue impact,
36:13
you know, side of things. You know,
36:15
it's like we need to make revenue in order to,
36:17
you know, sustain the organization,
36:19
or you need to make impact on on you know whatever you know population we
36:25
we wish to serve. but you you talk you you went beyond that,
36:28
you know, and you talked about driving revenue through donations and I guess
36:32
in kind donations and work and volunteer is is that did I understand?
36:35
Under that correctly.
36:36
All the above, yeah. I I mean I think of it as a hybrid model.
36:39
You and you you pointed out, you have to have revenue,
36:42
you have to have in my mind what I would call profitability,
36:45
right? How that profitability gets recirculated back into the enterprise
36:49
at large to do all the things that you want to do becomes part
36:52
of your ideation process on on creating greater impact.
36:56
So
36:56
Mm.
36:56
if you're looking to scale, if you're looking to replicate processes,
36:59
if you're looking to just create greater impact within that community that you're
37:04
trying to serve immediately.
37:05
Mm-hmm.
37:06
your
37:06
revenue base, whether that's philanthropic,
37:08
whether that's partnership based,
37:10
whether that's direct giving to you as an enterprise and how you're dispensing
37:13
of the resource, there's probably still shortfalls potentially in terms
37:17
of a cash flow situation. But that said,
37:19
that's where unique partnerships can step in to help.
37:22
And here's an example of one of the one of the student organizations
37:26
n really wanted to have transportation associated with their opportunity
37:29
to provide res clothing resource into the community.
37:32
They used a a used bus where they refurbished that and with some resources
37:38
and donations, allow that to be an opportunity that would drive into communities
37:42
and allow others to access it where perhaps they didn't have transportation
37:46
to go to some other centralized location in terms of being able
37:50
to access clothing you know at certain intervals of the of the year,
37:54
particularly as we in Syracuse,
37:55
New York.
37:56
edge into winter months as an example.
37:58
it gets so cold and freezing temperatures,
38:00
all that good stuff. So being able to meet the demand where it's at
38:05
and offer a resource like that becomes integral in terms of their ability
38:09
to impact their social business model and the and those that they're trying
38:14
to serve.
38:15
Mm. Mm-hmm. That makes sense. That makes sense.
38:17
I I I love that. I love that. I I it it's interesting the the resourcefulness.
38:23
That's you know, that that you're that you're talking about.
38:25
I I th I think about when I think about that,
38:28
one of the one of the one of the I guess bigger projects I was thinking about
38:31
was the guy that brought cell phones,
38:33
you know, into, you know, the rural areas in Africa and like built this,
38:36
you know, this huge organization.
38:38
So or like well projects and that sort of thing.
38:40
And it's it's it was
38:42
These seem different, you know,
38:44
these are like your ground up typical,
38:46
you know, entrepreneur. Let's in let's invent a a solution to a problem.
38:50
But I love the the practical nature of what you're talking about.
38:53
This is it's a it's a different mindset for me.
38:56
So thank you for that.
38:58
Yeah. Yeah, of course. No, we we study all those global entities and,
39:02
you know, often the you know, giving a pair away a pair of shoes or,
39:06
you know, all the companies that have done different things,
39:08
because there's something to learn from all of them,
39:10
right? In terms of how they've done it and how they bring in revenue
39:14
as different pathways by which they can continue their social mission forward ~
39:17
Mm-hmm.
39:18
or environmental mission or et cetera.
39:20
so there's something to take away from all those.
39:21
I think when you take social
39:24
business and you begin deploying on a local scale in certain areas,
39:28
you learn quickly, right, in terms of what's possible,
39:31
what's not. And you're always iterating on that business model,
39:34
in my experience from what I've seen with others and advise with others.
39:37
Partly because the dynamic of the customer is is ever changing.
39:40
And sometimes the model isn't fully replicable in
39:43
Mm.
39:43
terms of its scale and being able to bring to other places.
39:46
Some of the corporate
39:47
I call corporate practices that have been built in buy one,
39:50
get one, or buy one, give one,
39:52
you know, and others that have been used here do have their place.
39:55
I think there's definitely a mechanism that get can get leverage
39:58
and high visibility. so I don't want to take anything away from those either.
40:01
~
40:02
Yeah.
40:02
but I think it's a combination of leveraging that insight from what
40:05
big companies have done and bring it down to a local scare and scale
40:08
and see what works where you can see some really creative things happen
40:09
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
40:11
and it it can be exciting.
40:13
Mm-hmm. Mm. I love that. I love that.
40:15
Awesome. do you want to talk about your a little bit more about your book?
40:18
Yeah, I'm happy to. thank you for that and the opportunity to,
40:21
you know. So this is my fourth book on Planet Pragmatism,
40:24
The New Path to Prosperity. it was released last year.
40:26
I'm really quite pleased with it.
40:28
And we've talked a lot about it here in the past few minutes,
40:30
but conceptually, it came out of my three prior books were really focused
40:36
on sustainability. The first one was Sustainability Generation 2012,
40:40
Time to Trust, which had a exclusive focus on
40:44
How trust-based relationships were kind of dissolving in society.
40:47
And that was back in 2014 and fast forward 12 years.
40:50
We're still struggling with that a great deal.
40:51
And then in 2020,
40:54
a book called The Dignity Doctrine:
40:56
Rational Relations in an Irrational World ,
40:58
all had a perspective, whether it was accountability,
41:01
trust, dignity, around the human and social context around sustainability,
41:06
something that I feel like has been underserved for a long time.
41:08
Oftentimes
41:08
Mm-hmm.
41:09
people look at sustainability and think it's primarily a
41:12
environmental or energy perspective and it certainly is and that's a huge aspect
41:17
of where it was born out of. But let's not forget that a an enormous aspect
41:21
of all that is the context by which society operates and behaves as
41:24
a culture and collectively as a community in terms of what
41:27
our sustainability impact is. So we cannot remove ourselves from the equation
41:30
by any means. So that being underserved in my mind,
41:33
I wanted these four books have focused on some of those core principles or values.
41:37
And this most recent one on pragmatism really brought me full circle,
41:41
Rick, because
41:42
For years I kind of looked at the sustainability challenge
41:45
as something that practitioners like myself were continuing to perpetuate
41:50
to a certain extent. If you you know,
41:52
I'd go to conferences and you shake hands and everybody pats each other
41:55
on the on their backs about topics and things that we've done and and
41:59
yet the world w you know is still challenged and corporations aren't necess
42:04
necessarily that much more sustainable and we're having a lot of impacts
42:08
in other ways. And so
42:10
that's not the fault of that professional crowd or or cohorts necessarily,
42:14
~
42:14
Mm-hmm.
42:14
but it's the idea that perhaps we have to shift the dialogue and language
42:19
too so that it becomes more accessible.
42:21
Perhaps we need to be engaging with our ideals around sustainability
42:25
in a different way than perhaps they've been manifested in the business community.
42:28
So with Planet Pragmatism, I came full circle and said It's not just
42:32
the S-word sustainability in all its orientation.
42:35
We have to get back to
42:37
What does quality of life mean to us as consumers and citizens?
42:41
And does it mean fresh air? I mean,
42:43
I could say a lot of things that we probably would say,
42:45
yeah, that makes sense to us, right?
42:47
But it is about health, it is about economics,
42:50
it is about social and cultural dynamics,
42:53
it is about our sense of spirituality and and how we may want to bring that into
42:56
the world within our own sense of individualism and responsibility.
43:00
it's about a lot of things. And so
43:03
We can't just put a blanket label and say,
43:05
you know, American prosperity or,
43:08
you know, a certain flavor of prosperity.
43:10
It really needs to be a conversation.
43:12
It needs to be, as we've been talking about all along here,
43:15
dialed into the very fabric of who we are as individuals,
43:19
who we are as a community, who we are as a society.
43:21
And it's multi-layered, right?
43:23
And it's multi-generational. you know,
43:25
if if I look backward to
43:27
you know, my prior generations and and people in my life.
43:30
And I look forward to you and I began this podcast separately talking about
43:34
our children. and then there's a place of time that we're serving right
43:37
now in between bookends, right?
43:38
And what do we want that story to be and what are how are we serving of that,
43:42
but also acknowledging that that story and narrative is going to change within
43:46
our lifetime for our children and and perhaps future generations.
43:49
And so
43:51
This is a deep this book gets deeper into the mindset of trying to ask
43:55
the reader to reconsider that notion of prosperity,
43:57
reconsider what quality of life truly means to us today,
44:01
and then reframe it back into how can we bring these principles back into action
44:06
in terms of our decision making and all facets of how we manifest this within
44:11
society, both business, government,
44:12
policy, politics, academia, research,
44:15
anything that you can imagine.
44:18
I began the book about with a s short poem,
44:21
Feeding Faith in the Fur of Fog.
44:24
I titled it. It was inspired by a conversation I had with Reverend Brian Konkol,
44:29
who at the time was the dean of Hendricks Chapel at Syracuse University.
44:32
he's gone on, he's been he's now the president of Valparaiso University
44:36
in the Midwest. And it was a great conversation.
44:39
The reason I bring it up and bring Brian up is because
44:42
We're talking about this sense of fog that many in society may feel.
44:47
We don't necessarily know where the direction is going.
44:49
We have a sense of fear. we have a sense of loss.
44:52
We have a sense of anxiety. We also feel empowered.
44:55
We also feel hopeful. And this confusion is creating fog in the lives
45:00
of many in terms of really trying to understand where do we go from here
45:03
day in and day out. And this rapid ascent of technology has made many of
45:07
us feel I think both connected,
45:08
but also alone. That all said.
45:11
it gets to this place where there is light,
45:13
there is hope, there is opportunity.
45:15
And I think that all stems from the inspiration we bring to this conversation
45:20
as individuals. But what we need to do is a better job of listening
45:22
and hearing each other and understanding contextually where we're coming from
45:26
and really trying to solve problems together as you and I were talking about.
45:29
So in a snapshot, the book is really getting to that sense of hope,
45:33
really looking at sustainability not just as a
45:36
you know, a soft word that is out there in the ethers that people should have
45:40
as an ideal, but really getting it to a a a more measurable context around what
45:44
it means to your life and how you can have an impact on it right now.
45:48
Mm. Mm. Wow. Sounds sounds sounds intense.
45:51
where I saw the book on Amazon.
45:52
Are you selling it? Do you have it any place else?
45:54
Yeah, it's you know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble.
45:56
If folks want to go to my website,
45:59
MarkColemanInsights.com, they can access that book and any of the other three titles
46:03
as well if they choose to do that.
46:05
it's in other retail outlets as well.
46:07
So if if folks are willing to take a peek at it,
46:09
I'd be incredibly grateful. I'm always looking for feedback and and love
46:13
to hear from folks as well, the good,
46:15
the bad, anything in between. It helps me become a better writer,
46:18
thinker, doer. I think what people will find too,
46:21
Rick, is that
46:22
at least feedback that I've received that I've always appreciated is that
46:25
it really true tries to take a independent.
46:28
We all have bias to the the the world that we have to a certain extent,
46:32
but I I try to be as objective and independent as as possible in the voice that
46:36
I try to carry through this book and would love what others have to say about
46:40
it and and really continue the conversation.
46:42
So I thank you for that.
46:43
absolutely, absolutely. And we'll put links on your on your show notes.
46:46
is there a LinkedIn address where people can reach you or is it just through your
46:50
website?
46:51
Yeah, the best way would be through the website MarkColemanInsights.com
46:55
All right, perfect, perfect. We'll have your information there.
46:57
And I think we have a book cover you guys sent over.
46:59
So we'll we'll make sure people get to you.
47:02
one last question for you. I always ask my guests.
47:04
so the name of the show is the Relentless Pursuit of Winning podcast.
47:08
And you know, for most people,
47:09
defining winning is pretty simple.
47:11
The hard part is maintaining that relentless pursuit.
47:14
And so what would you recommend to our guests as as advice on how
47:18
to maintain that relentless pursuit?
47:19
That's a great question. you know,
47:22
I I so I'm gonna say this in a different way.
47:24
Something came to me. My my younger son is he just got his driver's permit.
47:30
And so he's 16, he's looking to get his driver's license.
47:32
And I did this with his older son too.
47:35
and maybe this isn't the best metaphor,
47:36
but you know, when I when we got behind the wheel of the car,
47:39
we're doing some practice driving after he got his permit.
47:41
You know, I I mentioned to him,
47:42
I said, Look, driving is a privilege.
47:45
It's not just a right. And even though right is embedded in the word privilege,
47:49
we have to acknowledge that this is something that you have to earn.
47:53
You have to learn. You have to make sure that you're safe and you're creating safety
47:56
in the world around you and by virtue of this machine that you're now,
47:59
you know, taking control over.
48:01
and and I think about that a lot,
48:03
not only from the context of driving a car,
48:05
but I think how we pursue life.
48:07
I think we have to think of it as something that's
48:09
Not just given to us and is expected and we're here every single day,
48:12
but something that it is an amazing time to be alive,
48:16
even with all the challenges that we've talked about.
48:18
And so I think in the spirit of relentless pursuit of winning,
48:21
I think it's getting up, having that grit,
48:24
going up every day, really stepping off that front porch,
48:27
wearing that hat that is that deep conviction that we all have,
48:31
and not being fearful of whom we are,
48:33
right? The world wants to challenge us in so many ways to strip us away down to this
48:37
core of something else and drive us in ways that really become confusing through
48:43
that fog that we talked about.
48:44
And where I'm coming from at this point in my life is skip all that,
48:48
get back to the core of whom we are.
48:50
We know who we are. You know who you are inside.
48:52
And if you don't, get out there and find it,
48:54
work hard at it, and bring it in the best image that you possibly can to show
48:58
up no matter what lane that you choose to drive in every single day.
49:01
because it truly is a privilege and we need to lean into that privilege
49:04
and just own it. And so
49:06
When when I think of winning, Rick,
49:07
I think of it's it's not all those externalities or material things
49:10
or anything else. It comes back to just being who we are,
49:14
owning who we are, the good, the bag,
49:15
and the ugly, continuing to learn,
49:17
lead, love and grow and and life can be a beautiful thing.
49:21
Yes, life can be a beautiful thing.
49:22
Mark, thank you so much for being on the show.
49:24
This is this has been insightful.
49:26
I really appreciate your time.
49:28
Likewise, Rick. I appreciate you and your time and thank you so much.
49:31
And yeah, we'll talk again sometime.
49:34
Sounds good. Sounds good.
49:35
And folks, thank you so much for watching or listening to another episode
49:38
of the Relentless Pursuit of Winning podcast.
49:40
We'll catch you next time.