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Optimising Nervous System Resilience with Anthia Koullouros · Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Music.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: This is Wellness by Designs, and I'm your host, andrew Whitfield-Cook.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: This is Wellness by Designs, and I'm your host, andrew Whitfield-Cook.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Joining us today is Anthea Kouralos, a naturopath, homeopath and herbalist, and today we'll be speaking about repositioning the nervous system to heal.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Wellness by Designs, anthea.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: How are you?
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Very well, thank you, andrew.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: This is a fun topic to get to with you.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: And so real in today's environment.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: I've got to say and thank you so much for your time today.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I've got to say let's start off.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: What do you mean?
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: What do we mean by repositioning the nervous system?
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: It means shifting from a state of chronic stress and chronic stress and I know we're going to dive into this the fight, flight, freeze and even foreign response into a more balanced, regulated nervous system, because it is in our regulated nervous system that we heal.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: So, quite simply, it's where we find our most stable foundations.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: It's where our body will prioritize healing, digestion, repair.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: It's where we find ourselves in our most calmest state, our most regulated state, because when we're in a stress state, in a non-regulated state, survival is priority, it is not healing.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: And so when we're healing, we want to reposition the nervous system to be in a non-reactive, regulated state, not just survival mode.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: I love what you say.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Like typically, we used to always say fight, fright or flight.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: You've added two more things in there, freeze, and what was that?
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: one fawn on, yes, like a deer.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, in in fight, and most people know fight or flight, that's the part of the nervous system that acutely responds to danger.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: So it's positioning ourselves to be able to quickly move, move towards the stress or a thread or move away in flight from that stress.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: And there's a lot of energy in that state, lots of glucose, oxygen and adrenaline to move real quick in our um free state.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Different the free state feels like it's more it's.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: It is still a protective mechanism in response to stress, but it's where we feel a bit frozen, dissociated.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: It's an emergency state of the nervous system where we no longer can fight or flight, where we go from an I can to an I can't and we freeze, in a sense, almost to hide, to dissociate, to numb ourselves.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: And fawn's a little bit different and you've probably seen people fawn.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: I would say I'm an ex-fawner.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: The people that people please.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: They go into a submissive behaviour as a means to deal with a threat or a stress.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: So it's quite, rather than fighting or fleeing or freezing, they'll, people please like, they'll give in, they'll comply.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Right, right, so forgive me.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: So I was thinking about like a fawn a baby deer would.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: When the mother does a hiss I think it's a hiss they drop, bang.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: They just drop to the grass, bang.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: That's this protective mechanism to not be seen.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: You're talking about something different as into the over-pleasing, the fawning over somebody, sort of thing.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: I think what you're talking about is that phrase.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Like a deer in headlights, yeah.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, got it Okay.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: So that's an interesting one, that form thing that people please as a, as a as a nervous system response yeah, to stress, it's interesting how we can we all develop these different maneuvers or mechanisms coping mechanisms, to stress.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: We either inherit these patterns, they've been taught to us, we've seen them in action, or we develop them from a very, very young age as a coping mechanism.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: We're very crafty human beings.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, but it's like I'm interested in where that comes from, that pleasing sort of thing as a stress response Very, very interesting.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Can you take us through, though, what happens to the nervous system and body physiology when we come under chronic stress?
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: You were mentioning, you know, glucose and adrenaline in the fright and the fight stages.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: I get that Different in different stages.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: So in that fight or flight we're activating the adrenals, those stress hormones, so we can quickly move into action.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: And what decreases is our regulated state, our regulated state.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: When I say what decreases is our regulated state, our regulated state, and when I say what decreases is digestion, immunity, engagement, that decreases because that's not necessary for survival In that stress response.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: The hypothalamus, pituitary access will then release cortisol to kind of maintain that energy.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Over time we either produce too much or in the case of burnout or adrenal exhaustion, there's not enough.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: And that's when we can test that as practitioners In the free state, when the state becomes so overwhelmed and we've been in fight flight for too long, the free state, I think think is this wonderful emergency state of the nervous system.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: We shouldn't be there for too long because it isn't healthy to be there for too long.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Often people think freeze is a calm state, because it's just so different to fight and flight, because you kind of feel a bit numb to the actual stress of what's happening.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: So people often will say, oh yes, I'm in a calm state, but they're actually in a dissociated state.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: In a, in a formed state, it's still activating, either a fight flight or freeze response.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: The difference with a regulated state of the nervous system is that all blood flow shunts back to that digestive state, to that rest and digest state.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: It's the state where we feel really calm and connected, whereas fight, fight, freeze and form they're very protective states.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: Our regulated nervous system is called rest and digest.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: It's also called social engagement, where we feel so safe and comfortable in our own skin that we want to connect socially with everyone.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: So, anthea, can I ask with regards to adrenaline and the adrenal glands being engaged in a stress response, whether that be acute or chronic?
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: There's the term that has been coined about adrenal burnout or adrenal fatigue.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Does it happen in the adrenals or are we really talking about brain changes because of a stressful response?
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: I think it happens everywhere.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: It's because of the nervous system's web and its connection to every single body, organ and system.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: So in the fight-flight response it's like we always feel things within our body, our senses.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: So vision, taste, smell, hearing will sense or surveil the scene.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: We call that enteroception.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: There is also interoception, where we're sensing our internal world as well as our external world.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: That feedback then comes back to the nervous system which then activates the adrenals.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: So it's all parts.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Because look what happens to our heart rate in fight flight.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: It speeds up.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: In an exhausted or a freeze numbed out state heart rate reduces.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: In a fight flight breathing activates and speeds up.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: In a more freeze response or adrenally exhausted state the breathing can slow down.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: We will feel sensations of numbness in a freeze state, whereas in a fight flight senses become so heightened we can acutely hear danger, smell, danger, feel danger in that freeze adrenal exhausted.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: When we're burnt through it all, when we go from that I can to I can't, we don't sense anything.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Everything's quite dull and flat.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: So we say it's a whole body experience in fact, starting off with our senses internal world, external world tying this in with assessments that we can use, like the cortisol awakening response to say the car right.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: So we talk about people that have a high morning and then they drop.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Right, rather than coming down gracefully, let's say, during the day with cortisol, then you get other people that are flat.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Even if it's flat higher, it's flat without the day with cortisol.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Then you get other people that are flat.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Even even if it's flat higher, it's flat without the variation yes is, is the issue that there's no variation, then it's not the level per se yeah, I think so.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: I mean often when I see those kind of results in a, in a person who's very dissociated, they're a free state when they're exhausted, usually they have such low cortisol it's really flat, it doesn't peak at all.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: The ones that are in this fight flight in this acute stress.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: Their cortisol readings just go up and they'll stay up throughout the whole day right and it depends on the chronicity as well.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: It's really interesting to me.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: So some people's results, they might be just elevated but they still follow the pattern and it's what they do to self-manage it's.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: It is interesting.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: It's not a a regular thing that you.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: It really all depends on people's starting points, how long they've been stressed for, how they cope and manage with that stress as well, and that will be reflected in those results and also what melatonin is doing at the other end.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Ah well, let's talk about sleep then.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, other end ah well, let's talk about sleep then.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: You know, you get again your two responses to sleep.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: Some people go somnolent and other people can't get to sleep.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: I think in the acute fight and flight people tend to have trouble sleeping in the freeze response.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: They're just so exhausted they can sleep anywhere.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: They're good at even using sleep as a means of dissociating.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Or they're just exhausted and they're tired.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Many of my patients don't even realize they're in a stress state.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: It's a really interesting thing.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: They're so used to it.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: They're so used to operating that way that they don't realize they're stressed until I make them aware that they're acting in an acute stressed out state or that they've been in a chronic ongoing state.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: So it's not until that they become aware that that the way they're living life or coping is actually not where they need to be.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: It's not conducive to healing, it's not conducive to living because they're just in survival.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: But they're so used to that way of being.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: I ask them sometimes I'll show them a diagram of the regulated state and they go.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: I can't remember the last time I was there.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I I operate from fight flight and if I want to dissociate or break from that, I go into freeze where I just numb out.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: And people are so clever.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: They social media scroll, they take drugs, they eat.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: They do all these behaviors to dissociate, but their nervous system will do it for them anyway when it becomes too much.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Can we investigate that?
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: How do you take a patient through what they should be feeling and assess where they're at?
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: How do you enlighten them as to where they should be?
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: That's a really good question.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: I make them aware of their nervous system responses.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: So we take them through.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: You know how they're feeling, what are they thinking, how they cope with stress at any given moment.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: So I make them aware of their nervous system's response.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: I usually show them the polyvagal diagram, the Dr Stephen Porges diagram, so they can see where they're positioned in that diagram, that 3T diagram.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: I get them really up close and personal to the words that they use and I know this is something that you're really keen to talk about as well which is those internal stresses, that negative self-talk that people have and how we meet that part of themselves, because that only perpetuates the stress that doesn't position ourselves to heal.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: And that's what I talk about.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Repositioning your nervous system is just, it's the physical expression, but it's also the mental, emotional expressions of stress and we kind of find those words, the symptoms, the story around the words and the symptoms and walk through that door and get to know their nervous system's response.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: This would be quite confronting for some people, wouldn't it?
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: It is and it's also so.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: It's revealing, confronting.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: And so it's such great relief for someone to actually meet their emotions and feelings, because often patients will come in and say I don't want to feel this way anymore, I'm so sick and tired, or I'm so sick of this, whatever it might be that they're doing or managing.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: So to have someone say this is a coping mechanism, you're trying to survive a stress.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: And what is stress?
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Stress can be anything from inflammation, infection, pain, but it can be emotional, it can be environmental, too many chemicals or smells, it could be global affairs, it could be financial.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: It could be global affairs, it could be financial, it could be relationship.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: The body accumulates all the stresses and activates our nervous system to fight, flight, freeze, fawn.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: However, we cope all of the above.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Some of them we do more than others, and so it is confronting and so it is confronting.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: But when you explain about the physiological expression of stress, then the people then will say well, no wonder I've got gut issues, no wonder I've got high blood pressure, no wonder I can't sleep at night, no wonder I feel numb and I can't sense or feel something.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: And so the big thing is to validate this.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: These are coping mechanisms.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: They're not bad.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: This is what you've developed and what you've evolved into coping.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: These are your strategies.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: However they've come about, what we need to do is understand the strategy, the parts of you that are acting this way, the patterns that have evolved this way that's so interesting.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: I, I can.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: I'm just in my mind.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: I'm going through so many different conditions from people just feeling stressed from high, high pressure sorry workers in high-pressure jobs from, you know, emotional trauma, the whole gamut like, oh man, this is taxing to you, who looks after you?
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: If I don't do my deep work then I can't meet with people.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: But these are the deep-rooted underlying causes and contributing factors.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: That's why repositioning the nervous system to be in a position to heal or do we just stay in survival mode, I think is one of the most important underlying areas when we're looking at holistically healing a patient is the coping mechanisms tell us a lot.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: The coping mechanisms tell us a lot.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: They may be the underlying cause or they may be just the contributing factor.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: They create the scene, the scenario, they contribute to what's happening.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: But chances are if someone's got chronic, ongoing, persistent symptoms, chronic disease, there is an element of the nervous system, of course, always that is being activated in a particular way to survive something.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: So it's hard not to address the nervous system.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: That's why it's such an important factor is when I look at people, I look at their nervous system.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: I look at whether they're looking at me, whether they're fawning.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: Look at their nervous system.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: I look at whether they're looking at me, whether they're fawning, whether they're people pleasing me, whether they're acting in a frightened state sitting opposite me, whether they're shut down.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: They're not actually there.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: They're in the clinic opposite me but they're not really present.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: So I'm assessing how they look, how they feel.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: My nervous system is sensing their nervous system.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: I'm also assessing if they've got negative self-talk and that tells me a lot.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Let's dive into this one.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a lot of negative self-talk.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Doesn't that beget more stress?
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Like stress begets stress?
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Negative self-talk begets negative self-talk.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: It keeps us in this perpetual straight state of stress.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Now, I'm not saying bypass it with positive self-talk, because that's bypassing how we actually feel.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: But if I hear a part of a person's voice that is critical, negative, I hate this.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: I don't want to feel like this.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: I take that one little piece and I think, well, that part of you that sounds so negative, that is criticizing, that is critiquing what is happening, that part of you is just another coping mechanism.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: It's a part of you that wants to not feel scared anymore.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: It's a part of you that wants to feel relaxed.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: It's a part of you that wants to feel comfortable.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: It's a part of you that wants to feel safe.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: It's acting in a not very nice manner, but it's actually a part of you that needs attention and needs to be met.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: So why don't we do that?
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Rather than what we resist persists, let's meet that part of you, and this is the work of Dr Richard Schwartz Parts Theory, Internal Family Systems where we validate and honour, not reject or suppress or bypass any feeling or symptom.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: I'm so with you there.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: This whole thing about you know, fake it till you make it the positive talk when you're feeling down and things like that doesn't address anything.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Might be great as a short-term rescue, possibly, but it doesn't uproot the weed that's festering and causing the issues.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you say that.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: But I also look for functions of things, even though they might seem bad, even though we might judge them as not not being, um, desirable.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: So, for instance, you speak about survival mode and then we're talking about negative self-talk.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: But that negative self-talk does it not have?
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Let's go back from evolution, right that?
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Ah, you know, keep away your dopey day of don't do that again, you don't?
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Is that not protecting us from touching the hot stove twice, reaching out for the snake that would bite us in the long grass when we were cavemen and women?
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Um, it does.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: So the function of that oh sorry, there is a function to that, but it's just overriding is that what's going on?
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: no, see that's.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I see that as a function, I see that as um acting accordingly.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: I don't see that as negative self-talk.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: I think that's informing and I think that's great.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: It is what it think, that's great, it is what it is.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: That's informing it's when we're festering, it's when we're having this dialogue within ourselves with our symptoms, with our disease.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: That keeps us in this perpetual stress state that we're not actually looking at these symptoms and disease states and stressed out feelings as really a story that needs to be met, as something that is popping up over and over again, a part of ourselves that needs attention, a pattern that is well grooved into our nervous system, that is requiring some curious, kind, compassionate attention.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: And that's what we're meant to do as practitioners.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: We're exploring what you're thinking, how you're feeling, how you present your symptoms, how you cope with your symptoms, because that is the path to unpacking the underlying causes and contributing factors, your coping strategies, your coping mechanisms.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: And yes, it sounds like you know we're delving into psychology, but we're naturopaths and we're holistic practitioners and so we're looking at mind, body, spirit, soul, environment, upbringing, culture, a whole kin and kibbutz is how does one present themselves?
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: well, it's all important, totally agree.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: So how do we change this though?
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: so rather than bypassing, so ignoring, wishing it didn't exist, whatever the, the feeling, the stress response, the inner critic, the negative self-talk is, we bring ourselves into somewhat of a space.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: That is curious.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: That's hard when you're in a fight-flight response.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: So that's where we think of what do we do for acute stress then, just so we've got some capacity, just so we've got some space, before we look at the underlying causes.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: So in an acute stressed-out state, someone might be hyper-energised or have no energy, especially if it's chronic stress.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: And so to create some capacity, maybe first-day treatment is we find ways to create energy, we find ways to calm energy and stress.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: So, whether it's supplements, breathing techniques, mindfulness, herbal medicines, there is, there is these different tools that we can use that positions a person in a place to have a little bit of space, more clarity if they've got brain fog, more energy if they've got no energy, more regulation if they're hyperactive, just to then be able to then get into that realm of.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Why am I feeling this?
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Why do I keep having these symptoms?
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Why do I keep responding in this way?
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Why does my outside world always look quite negative or disastrous?
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we just need that first aid until we can really position the nervous system.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: We need some first aid relief yeah and that's what beautiful tools of naturopathy exist yeah, so let's go into this.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, one of my first sort of go-tos for what we're talking about here would be I mean, obviously diet is the foundation.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: So let's start with diet, let's start there yeah, yeah.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: So I think, if you know, if someone is seeing a psychologist or a psychotherapist or even if you're seeing any practitioner, is to get off the highs and lows of stuff that you're doing to cope, because either you're going to be diagnosed with ADHD or you're going to be diagnosed with having some type of brain fog, and sometimes diet will impact that greatly.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: So if you're really addicted to sugar, do anything that you can.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Obviously there's a component.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: The addiction for sugar means you're trying to bomb something or distract from something or you're trying to find energy.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: But if you're high as a kite on caffeine and sugar and drugs and those kinds of things and stimulating foods or soft drinks or colors, whatever it might be, I think that's one of those things that you do.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: It wouldn't be the first thing, but it is a really important foundation when we're looking at repositioning the nervous system.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: So we're not responding in a fight, flight, freeze or foreign state.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: We can respond in a more regulated state and I have to ask, you know, habits are hard to break.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: When somebody's stressed, they're very resistant to change.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: So you know, take us through the journey of how you approach this with patients yeah, so it is.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Isn't it tricky that?
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Because it's the stress that's creating, contributing to the addiction, and then the addiction we employ to help us cope with the stress.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: So how do you break that cycle?
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Is first, the awareness that that is what is happening and in those given moments, what can we do?
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Do we need to like?
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: There's very, very acute things that one can do to, you know, calm the nervous system.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Splashing cold water on your face, a cold compress, I know it's so simple.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: It could be shaking out or dancing out the adrenaline, that excess adrenaline, instead of just saying go and sit in your room or go and sit in the corner.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: If we're in this activated acute stress response, we need to exercise, we need to complete that stress cycle and get rid of all that excess adrenaline could be.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Just, you know, if we've kind of left the room and we're wanting to ground ourselves, it could be.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: I do a cute little technique five Around senses identify five things that you see, four things that you feel, three things that you smell, two things you hear.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: One thing you taste, it's whatever activity.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: So often I ask patients what is it that you do that helps you get grounded?
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Patients know there's stuff that they do, that does, and if they don't, then we give them these exercises Again.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: It's this acute stuff, the acute stress relief, that just regulates, even for a short period of time, so they don't jump to the sugar, so they don't jump to more caffeine, just to widen that space from reaction to a response.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: It's tricky, but it's so doable.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: You're looking at it holistically, that's for sure.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Do you know?
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: You remind me what you're talking about there reminds me of a lady I interviewed some years ago, megan Sheel, about dialectical behaviour therapy Instead of CBT, this is DBT, and she was talking about even violent offenders, domestic violence and things like that, and she'd get them to splash water onto their face to wake them up.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: But I love, I love what you've said about five, four, three, two, one.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: That's brilliant, because five things you can go emergency.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: What's my five things?
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: What's my four things?
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, what's it?
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: And it takes that time.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that you've got yeah that's really interesting.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: And it just brings some people meditate.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Some people can meditate, some people do a deeper exhalation, some people have mantras.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: So sometimes you work with what a patient already does.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: And if they don't do anything and their coping strategy is just sugar and caffeine, well, we kind of do some healthy swaps, from coffee to maybe green tea.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: And I talk about l-theanine.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: We're not going to give it as a supplement.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: It might be start taking magnesium, it's.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: It's a bunch of things.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: It's so individual and it's so bespoke, so very prescriptive what works for each individual person.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: But I think the goal is this create some space, give them the first aid.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: If they've got brain fog, help them with clarity.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: They've got no energy, give them energy.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: We're not really addressing the underlying causes at that point.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: It's just creating some capacity so they become aware that their nervous system is what, and repositioning those nervous system is what is actually going to put them into that healing realm.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: And other nutrients like, say, fish oils, for instance, to help to feed the neurons in the brain.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: What about things like phosphatidylserine?
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Do you ever use that?
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all of those things I mean.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: It depends.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Sometimes, as we know know, patients already come in with a cocktail of things.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: They're either not taking good quality things, they're not taking the right dose, but simple things, and again, I might not even have time to do a blood test because someone is such in a state where I can't give them a list of 10 things to do or even go and get a blood test because they don't have capacity for it.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: So we need to get them to feel better quickly.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: So that's where I might give them some activated bees magnesium, zinc, c, l-theanine it might be those supplements and then herbally it might be things like and again, are they on any prescriptive medication?
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: So we're not looking doing any drug interactions, um, ashwagandha or withania, it might be saffron, it might be all my herbal adaptogens and nervous system or nervine herbs that I love california poppy and passion.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: If someone's not sleeping, let's help them sleep, because then that creates again capacity positioning of the nervous system.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: So we're moving from a reactive state to a more responsive state and that positioning is then healing.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Often people think, oh, I feel better now.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: But that's not.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: We haven't addressed your underlying causes and contributing factors.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: We've just put you in the realm of healing.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: What about different things in the acute stage versus the chronic stage, like for instance licorice employed, you know, when somebody's really depleted but not necessarily favourable?
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Am I correct in this in the acute stage?
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I like using licorice in both states, I think, like the ginsengs I use for those chronic, chronic stresses, the medicinal mushrooms and astragalus and things like this.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, it just depends again how they present.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Are they in the fight flight, where they're so highly wired they present?
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Are they in the fight-flight where they're so highly wired and not sleeping?
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Are they in the freeze, brain fog, numb state where I need to activate them?
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: So that's when we use different.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: See the different stages and the different reactions to stress.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Do we need activation?
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Do we need to liven them, awaken them?
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: And what about toxicants, things like that?
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: So you know the heavy metals, for instance, persistent organic pollutants, persistent organochlorine pollutants.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: How do you address this?
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's a heck of a lot of testing.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: So we do that second or I, might you know, just do a whole bunch of tests that I suspect, through a really thorough consultation, we think, oh, they've been exposed to environmental toxins, they've been exposed to mould.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: It takes four weeks to get results back.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: It's what we do in that mean time.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to just wait for results.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: What are you doing the meantime?
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: So when the results come in, that it can creating a stress in the nervous system, can I do some first aid to create some capacity, some clarity, some energy or some regulation if they're hyperactive, so we we can look at the results, so we can implement a protocol.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: So again, it's that positioning of the nervous system in any which way possible to create capacity to implement a protocol.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Some people can only do the whatever we do to make them feel better immediately.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: Some people we unpack enough that we think you know it's time to see a psychotherapist or a psychologist now to do that deeper work.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I can get them to the door, but they need to see their therapist to do the deeper work.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: I get them to the door of having enough capacity mentally, physically, emotional to do the deeper work, whether it is with the naturopath and the psychologist or psychotherapist, but it's that first aid, positioning the nervous system, creating energy, regulating energy, creating capacity, clarity just a quick question about polyvagal therapy that you spoke of earlier.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Do you get people to engage in like singing and gargling and the what is it?
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: The external conker of the ear, sorry, pinna of the ear, um, where they stimulate that to to help with stimulation of the vagal nerve?
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Do you do that?
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: all of the above, yes, Right, Because they're the most simplest exercises to tone the vagus nerve.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: But again, it's that once you become aware of I'm operating in a fight-flight or a freeze response or a fawn response, once people become aware of their nervous system positioning, then we can then start having those conversations about polyvagal the vagus nerve, fostering more parasympathetic nervous system activity, moving from that sympathetic nervous system state to that more regulated state.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: And these are all the different techniques.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: There are so many techniques to use, which is the good news.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: There are techniques that we can offer to a patient and say pick the thing that you relate to, the thing that makes you feel most comfortable, Do the thing that makes you feel like you're regulating your nervous system repositioning your nerves.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know what I was very recently shown?
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Just a very simple meditation trick, if you like, and it's more physical than mindful and it's a very short breathing exercise.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: That's all Something that you could do before you pull up to a meeting in a car, something that you could do just outside your boss's office, something that you could do before you pull up to a meeting in a car, something that you could do just outside your boss's office, something that you could do just outside your walk in the door.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Like there's a two-minute thing, it doesn't have to be this, you know an hour-long meditation in a yoga position and things like that.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: I was very impressed with who showed me this Can you show us now.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, can you want me to show you?
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: So it is simply closing your eyes and taking a long, deep breath in through your nose and then exhaling through your mouth and then completing, crunching over so you push more air out and then a big breath in Perfect, that's it.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: That's it, you know, and within there is a pause in breathing.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: But this was actually taught to me by a dear friend of mine just recently and I was like wow, like that's something that anybody can do in the car for less than two minutes and that's why we need these, like techniques that you know, because in those stages of becoming aware of our nervous system, responses to stress, some people say, oh, now that I know and I do this, is that it it's like no, because it's taken you years to react in this way.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: It's like via neuroscience.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: And the wonder of neuroscience is that we can wire in a new response, a different way that it's understanding.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: It's getting to the roots of why are we reacting that way?
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Why are we fawning?
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Why are we freezing?
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Why are we fleeing?
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Why are we reacting that way?
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Why are we fawning?
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Why are we freezing?
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Why are we fleeing?
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Why are we fighting?
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: And so these little techniques are just so we can really feel into what regulation means.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: What does regulation feel within our nervous system?
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Because that's ultimately where we want to be when we're looking at healing.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Now, the goal isn't to always be in a regulated state, and some patients will say what do you mean?
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Because we're not immune to danger, we're not immune to stress.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: We want to be able to have a great active, fight, flight, freeze response, but we also want to be able to regulate, not just stay trapped in these different spaces.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Regulate, not just stay trapped in these different spaces.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: So really the mark of well-being is being able to move between the different states of your nervous system adaptation.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love your work.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: It's brilliant.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Why don't we all do it?
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: I know I suppose you know what, andrew that people don't expect it from your naturopath.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: But I think how this is, how do we address any chronic, persistent symptom and somehow separate the nervous system and stress when we know that is really what's driving?
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: all of it it's just what's.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: It's the why behind the why fight, flight and freeze.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: It's the why it's, and it's usually some type of trauma or cumulative stress, or taught patterns or inherited three generations the mark of the work of mark wolen.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: It didn't start with you, I have to ask one last question what advice do you have for people who want to find equilibrium with their nervous system while navigating the demands of modern life?
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: So, andrew, that is an excellent question.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: So you know, being a practitioner for as long as I have been, the patients that get the greatest healing response are the ones that create time and space to better understand how their body works.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: So, just as we tell them, understand how your digestive system works if you've got chronic constipation, how you digest, absorb your gut microbiome.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Constipation, how you digest, absorb your gut microbiome do the same with your nervous system.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Befriend the nervous system.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Understand at any given moment where you are in your nervous system.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: Are you reacting from a fight response, a flight response?
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: Are you in a freeze response?
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Are you a perpetual fauna?
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: What is your coping mechanism?
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: When you understand how your nervous system works, then we can work with it.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: And we always say love what it is that you're looking at.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: So when you love enough of something that you're taking care of, it'll love you back.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: When you pay it enough attention, it'll pay you attention back.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: So follow the love.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: Love the thing that you're working on.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: It will love you back.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Pay attention to the thing that needs paying attention to and it will pay attention back at you.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Meet the parts that are unmet.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Get to know the parts that are unmet.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Get to know the parts that require attention, because aren't they what symptoms are and what stress reactions are?
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: They're a cry for help.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: It's look at me.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: You're not paying any attention to me.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Meet me anthea, I've learned so much from this podcast.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: So salient advice, fantastic.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking us through how you operate, how you help people to not just navigate but to, as you say, to follow the love to their nervous system and to help them to to reengage with life and with others.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking us through this very important topic today on Wellness by Designs.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Andrew.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: And thank you everyone for joining us today.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: We will put as much information as we can about this crucial topic up on the podcast notes and, of course, you can catch up on all of the other podcast episodes on the Designs for Health website.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: This is Wellness by Designs.