Latest / The Third Thing / S2E15: "I Give More Than I Get" - On One Sided Friendship

Transcript

S2E15: "I Give More Than I Get" - On One Sided Friendship · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Danyelle: Welcome to the Third Thing, a podcast about friendship in all its fullness.
• 0:04
  Danyelle: The conflict worth repairing, the evolution worth honoring, and sometimes the letting go.
• 0:10
  Michelle: Think of it as a kitchen table conversation with honesty, laughter, validation, and plenty of tea.
• 0:17
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle, a therapist, healer, and Hudo practitioner who's been thinking about the way we love each other for most of my life.
• 0:25
  Michelle: And I'm Michelle, a life coach, facilitator, and a spaceholder at my core.
• 0:30
  Michelle: I've spent a lifetime helping people communicate better and more honestly.
• 0:34
  Danyelle: We've been best friends for 26 years and we've got the first things.
• 0:39
  Danyelle: We've done the work and we want to share what we've learned.
• 0:41
  Danyelle: The tools, the hard parts, the things nobody taught us.
• 0:45
  Michelle: There are a lot of people figuring out their friendships without a roadmap.
• 0:48
  Michelle: So we're pulling up a chair.
• 0:50
  Danyelle: Hi Mish.
• 0:51
  Danyelle: Heidi, how are you?
• 0:54
  Danyelle: I'm wearing a bra today.
• 0:56
  Michelle: Rude.
• 0:57
  Michelle: With wires.
• 0:58
  Michelle: Yeah, it's doing the most.
• 1:00
  Michelle: But how cute.
• 1:01
  Danyelle: I mean, I've definitely worn them sometimes.
• 1:05
  Danyelle: It's always regret.
• 1:07
  Danyelle: Six years?
• 1:08
  Danyelle: Always.
• 1:09
  Danyelle: Every time.
• 1:10
  Danyelle: Like lockdowns ruined me.
• 1:12
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:12
  Danyelle: And then now I just wear camis.
• 1:16
  Danyelle: Anyways.
• 1:17
  Michelle: Well, after season two, I'm running out of tops that are different.
• 1:21
  Michelle: So I'm doing the best I can.
• 1:23
  Danyelle: Well, after season two, we'll be rich.
• 1:26
  Michelle: We'll have a wardrobe.
• 1:27
  Michelle: Manifest that shit.
• 1:29
  Danyelle: Hey! I'm excited to talk about one-sided friendships today.
• 1:34
  Danyelle: Oof.
• 1:35
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:35
  Danyelle: This feels like our first one in season two, where we get a little gritty.
• 1:42
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 1:43
  Danyelle: We we pull back another layer of the onion and really sink into what does it feel like when you're showing up and you're not getting that back from the other person.
• 1:55
  Danyelle: Right.
• 2:00
  Michelle: Ironic that I'm wearing a bra this episode because we're kind of winging it today.
• 2:07
  Michelle: I don't know what you're gonna say, and you don't know what I'm gonna say.
• 2:10
  Danyelle: Dun dun dun dun.
• 2:12
  Danyelle: Oh, and we do know that we're both playing we know what this is.
• 2:16
  Danyelle: Yeah, we're we know we know we know the role we're playing.
• 2:19
  Danyelle: We know where we're yes, okay.
• 2:21
  Michelle: So join us, won't you?
• 2:23
  Michelle: Join us.
• 2:23
  Michelle: What will happen?
• 2:24
  Danyelle: Dun dun dun.
• 2:25
  Michelle: I know you're gonna do that.
• 2:30
  Michelle: I mean, when you know, you know.
• 2:32
  Michelle: She does.
• 2:33
  Danyelle: So, like, yeah, everybody has that friend who remembers the birthday, their graduation, the kid's birthday.
• 2:42
  Danyelle: And like naming it out loud can feel really uncomfortable when you're that person.
• 2:48
  Danyelle: And I really think about what it feels like to kind of like keep the score of I'm I'm the one reaching out, or I'm the one who's texting on the birthday.
• 2:59
  Danyelle: I'm thinking about Michelle in high school.
• 3:02
  Danyelle: Oh.
• 3:05
  Danyelle: Go ahead.
• 3:06
  Danyelle: We don't have to tell it.
• 3:07
  Michelle: No, do you, Bill?
• 3:08
  Danyelle: I didn't know this.
• 3:09
  Danyelle: It like this is a later in life learn, but Michelle was the person who every birthday would decorate the locker.
• 3:19
  Michelle: I would go to Kinko's.
• 3:21
  Michelle: I had a shout out to Kinko's, I had a manila folder for every friend that I that had piles of pictures of them.
• 3:29
  Michelle: And then I would go to Kinko's and collage and do a birthday collage and put it around the school.
• 3:36
  Danyelle: And like the the yeah, like the locker would be decorated.
• 3:39
  Danyelle: And we used to have well, we used to, like I still go there.
• 3:43
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 3:43
  Danyelle: There used to do like balloon deliveries.
• 3:47
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 3:47
  Danyelle: And so then like you would get the balloons during different periods, and then you would walk around and no, no one ever did it for me.
• 3:55
  Danyelle: Michelle and I were friends after.
• 3:57
  Danyelle: Yeah, no, it's not.
• 3:58
  Michelle: So it wasn't me.
• 4:00
  Danyelle: But what about all you other bitches?
• 4:03
  Michelle: I listen, yeah.
• 4:04
  Michelle: I I mean, or was I doing the most?
• 4:07
  Danyelle: Well, we're gonna get into that in this episode about wasn't necessary.
• 4:12
  Danyelle: Calm down.
• 4:15
  Michelle: We're gonna be talking about like sorry, I just felt that in my body.
• 4:19
  unknown: Okay.
• 4:20
  Danyelle: Shouldn't have brought it back.
• 4:21
  Michelle: No, I I went down a spiral of like, which I'm sure we will talk about, but why did I need to do the most?
• 4:29
  Michelle: And then I I went there quickly.
• 4:32
  Danyelle: Those parts really be pulling, correct, pulling us down those spirals.
• 4:36
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 4:36
  Danyelle: Well, yeah, am I the convenient friend or am I the chosen one?
• 4:43
  Danyelle: We're gonna get into it.
• 4:44
  Danyelle: So we want to kick it off with some real stories.
• 4:49
  Danyelle: And again, we don't know what the other one's gonna say, but as we were prepping for this, I was like, well, I know the role I play.
• 4:57
  Danyelle: So I want to frame us.
• 5:00
  Danyelle: I want to anchor us in a framework that I learned from one of my spiritual teachers, JT Perry.
• 5:07
  Danyelle: And it's the idea that overfunctioning invites people to underfunction.
• 5:13
  Michelle: Interesting.
• 5:14
  Danyelle: And I think about this in almost a neutral way that it's not that an overfunctioner is better and the underfunctioner is inherently bad, but that we create these dynamics in relationships, in friendships, at work, at work, in family that really play to that.
• 5:38
  Danyelle: And I remember hearing this for the first time and being like, just like wow, in ways that we also rotate those roles internally.
• 5:49
  Danyelle: There are ways that I overfunction in my family, and there are ways that I underfunction in platonic love.
• 5:56
  Danyelle: And so I want to anchor us there because I think it is really important to name that as we are showing up in friendship, sometimes those roles we don't know that we're actually playing them and wanting to really highlight the importance of awareness.
• 6:13
  Michelle: Girl, yes, to all of that.
• 6:15
  Michelle: And I think for so many of us, millennials, elder millennials in our healing era, we probably had a girl boss era.
• 6:24
  Michelle: And this time I used to have a notebook that said, I'm busy.
• 6:29
  Michelle: And I remember like the overhead shot with the cappuccino, and I'm, you know, my point being that actually culturally overfunctioning has been really celebrated, and it's really only recently a more generally accepted part of the conversation that to rest and or to do less is more of value.
• 6:53
  Danyelle: And I think it's also important to name that sometimes overfunctioning is a response to the nervous system.
• 6:59
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 6:59
  Danyelle: The I gotta do, I gotta sit, I gotta I mean, when is it not?
• 7:03
  Danyelle: All the time.
• 7:04
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 7:05
  Danyelle: You know, it's not this personality trait, it's very much this is how I stay safe.
• 7:11
  Michelle: Girl, as I started healing in therapy, I had a moment where I was really beside myself.
• 7:17
  Michelle: Like, if I heal all of this trauma, then what is my personality?
• 7:22
  Michelle: Like, if I'm not intense, angry, overfunctioning, stressed, and I work on those things, then I don't even know that I know who I am.
• 7:31
  Michelle: And I don't want to get so far into that.
• 7:33
  Michelle: But I do think that the ways that we show up in friendships over or underfunctioning too can be a nervous system response.
• 7:42
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 7:43
  Danyelle: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:44
  Michelle: We got in fast.
• 7:45
  Danyelle: We did.
• 7:46
  Danyelle: Well, just to orient ourselves, I am an underfunctioner.
• 7:51
  Michelle: I'm over.
• 7:52
  Danyelle: And a lot of my underfunctioning, not all of my underfunctioning is absolutely a trauma response.
• 8:03
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 8:04
  Danyelle: Um being small and quiet and in the back and not ruffling.
• 8:12
  Danyelle: I'll just be over here quiet.
• 8:15
  Danyelle: You do it, you'll do it better.
• 8:16
  Danyelle: Oh my goodness.
• 8:17
  Danyelle: You will absolutely do it better.
• 8:19
  Danyelle: I could never do it as great as you.
• 8:22
  Danyelle: And being second, right?
• 8:24
  Danyelle: Maybe birth order plays some role into this.
• 8:27
  Danyelle: I wanna I'll I'll drop that little in there.
• 8:31
  Danyelle: But I do feel like I am not the friend who I do remember birthdays, but I'm always going to be like, happy birthday.
• 8:39
  Michelle: But like I might remember birthdays because you're like, and what is your sign and your son and your music?
• 8:45
  Danyelle: Rude.
• 8:46
  Michelle: Because you have charts of it all on your phone.
• 8:49
  Danyelle: Rude, rude.
• 8:52
  Danyelle: But like Michelle is one of the most thoughtful gift givers.
• 8:58
  Danyelle: And I think about some of the like things, the material things that I hold tender to my heart, and a good handful of them are from you.
• 9:10
  Danyelle: I am not a great gift giver.
• 9:12
  Danyelle: I just, it's not that I don't pay attention.
• 9:16
  Danyelle: It's just that's not my superpower.
• 9:19
  Danyelle: That's not how I show up.
• 9:21
  Michelle: Right.
• 9:21
  Danyelle: You know how I show up?
• 9:23
  Danyelle: Watch your kid for 10 days.
• 9:25
  Michelle: You know what?
• 9:26
  Michelle: And thank you.
• 9:27
  Michelle: Would take that over a necklace any day.
• 9:31
  Danyelle: However, when we're thinking about friendship, when we're thinking about platonic love, especially in this way of like circles or orbits, some of the ways that you show up are valued more.
• 9:43
  Danyelle: They are seen in a way that is favorable.
• 9:47
  Danyelle: And so I think it's important to orient kind of where I am.
• 9:51
  Michelle: I don't know what more you want to talk about in terms of your well, and before we wrap up that section, I feel like again, as we've gotten older and have more of the language for privilege too, and I've been able to understand how the way I show up, period, is celebrated, not just skin color or being physically acceptable, but also that I really fit into the box in an academic way and that I am a box checker as well.
• 10:19
  Michelle: And so whether it's an getting an A in school or getting hired for whatever job, I just have always fit more in the box.
• 10:28
  Michelle: And what I feel like I've been able to offer you through our friendship is just the reminder of how much value I do get in just showing up, in watching my kid, but not just from a babysitting standpoint, from a genuine relationship that you get to have with her, which is so different from tarot and showing up to our conversations, both as my friend with the history that we have, but also through the lens of a therapist who can give me tools when I'm struggling and be that mirror for me.
• 11:04
  Michelle: And so, you know, I'm jumping to the other side of it quickly, but I think this idea of under over is something that changes over time and also through a different lens.
• 11:16
  Michelle: But yes, I am a classic overachiever.
• 11:21
  Michelle: And I think what I saw growing up, and I really modeled after my mom, who I really respect and how much love she has and how much she wants to always stoke somebody out.
• 11:35
  Michelle: She wants to give.
• 11:36
  Michelle: She used to volunteer at my school in elementary school, she would braid everyone's hair.
• 11:42
  Michelle: I went to my 20-year high school reunion, and people were talking about my mom and her hair braiding with the, but it wouldn't just be hair braiding, it would be with purple ribbons, and she would do these elaborate birthday parties, and she would pick up anyone from the airport.
• 11:57
  Michelle: But speaking of trauma responses, so much of that was this her seeking for love and connection and using that as the means to get it, and or the constant effort of I promise I'm good enough, I promise I'm worthy.
• 12:16
  Michelle: Can I be worthy or good enough?
• 12:18
  Michelle: And so that is what I saw modeled to me in friendship and in relationship.
• 12:26
  Michelle: And I went forth and continued with the birthday, you know, I will, I will call, I'll be your best friend, I'll remember your favorite song.
• 12:35
  Michelle: And it's now, I think I've spoken about it in previous episodes, it's where some of my hangups come from about being too much.
• 12:43
  Michelle: But I can have so much compassion for people in relationship with me that it was a lot.
• 12:48
  Michelle: And it's a lot to hold somebody's nervous system who's really seeking affirmation and approval constantly.
• 12:57
  Michelle: And then we'll really stick it to you if you do not.
• 13:00
  Michelle: Like just the I was frustrated with Billy yesterday and she curled up in a ball and was crying, and I was just like, oh my God.
• 13:07
  Michelle: Okay, queen.
• 13:09
  Michelle: But to hold somebody's like really deep hurt and to feel like it's your fault, I think when you're older and you're someone like me, I can allow her to be sad and not take that on and be like, she's having a big feeling right now, she can have that, but I'm also not a bad mom and we're cool here.
• 13:24
  Michelle: But when you're younger and your best friend is crying and you hurt my feelings and you do really feel responsible, a lot of people's reaction is I don't think I want to be in this friendship.
• 13:35
  Michelle: This feels like a lot.
• 13:36
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 13:37
  Danyelle: And there's no emotional regulation skills at that age.
• 13:42
  Danyelle: We're just out here pretending that we have a fully developed brain.
• 13:48
  Danyelle: And so, yeah, we talk a lot about how our parts then remember, and what you're speaking to is growing up and getting older.
• 14:00
  Danyelle: And maybe showing up in this way and holding that as, well, this is how I get love.
• 14:06
  Danyelle: This is how people like me.
• 14:08
  Danyelle: But I have to walk that line because if it's too much, then people won't.
• 14:11
  Danyelle: And then I, you know, and I guess like the like the flip side or or where I'm sitting is I'm always gonna say the the negative thing about me first.
• 14:21
  Danyelle: I'm always going to be second best.
• 14:24
  Danyelle: I'm always going to be last.
• 14:26
  Danyelle: I'm always gonna just, like you said, stand in the back of the corner.
• 14:29
  Danyelle: And so no one can hurt me.
• 14:31
  Danyelle: No one can say, like, yeah, well, you suck anyways.
• 14:34
  Michelle: But isn't that so crazy?
• 14:35
  Michelle: Because you can look at us, you could look at two young teenage girls having that experience of, I'm gonna be the best friend ever, and I'm gonna show up and remember your birthday and throw this whole thing.
• 14:46
  Michelle: And then another person that's like, I probably wouldn't do a good job if I was the one throwing your birthday, so I'm not going to, and they meet, and it's like not having the language to understand, like, oh, it's not because she doesn't care about me, she's actually going through something for herself.
• 15:02
  Michelle: Like, this is to me the thing that I geek out on so hard because it's such an unlock.
• 15:09
  Michelle: All of the work that I do, that we do, that we're doing culturally, is allowing us to reframe these things that we're hurting so bad.
• 15:19
  Michelle: And it's like, oh, what our parents used to say is like, oh, they're being mean to you because they really like you.
• 15:25
  Michelle: But it's so much richer than that and deeper than that.
• 15:29
  Michelle: And I have to say, this is such a timely conversation because I reached out to a friend today that I probably haven't heard from in two months.
• 15:39
  Michelle: And if you look at our text threads, it's at least five or six reach outs for me.
• 15:44
  Michelle: It's all blue.
• 15:45
  Michelle: And I finally was like, it's been too long.
• 15:48
  Michelle: I need you to respond.
• 15:50
  Michelle: And what's interesting is the old me would have been like, fine, like, fuck you then.
• 15:55
  Michelle: I don't like fine, I'll, you know, and be really hurt.
• 15:57
  Michelle: But I I kept trying because I was like, I don't think this is about me, and it's making me really sad.
• 16:04
  Michelle: Are you okay?
• 16:04
  Michelle: What's going on?
• 16:06
  Michelle: And that person responded back, 100% not about you.
• 16:09
  Michelle: I am going through it, and I kind of need to just go through it alone.
• 16:13
  Michelle: But I'll reach out to you on the other side.
• 16:15
  Michelle: And even that is still, it still hurts in some ways because I'm like, but I can help you and we can talk, and you know, but also I'm a grown-up now and I can say, okay, you're allowed to have that space.
• 16:29
  Michelle: Thank you for communicating that.
• 16:31
  Michelle: And I can offer that without making it about me.
• 16:35
  Michelle: And that's on growth.
• 16:36
  Michelle: Woo, welcome.
• 16:38
  Michelle: I know, but the little me is still in there, but I can sit with it.
• 16:43
  Michelle: I can like self-soothe and also look for future proof of it being true or not.
• 16:52
  Danyelle: The whole reason we're doing this episode is because we want to center this idea that maybe it's not about you.
• 17:00
  Danyelle: Maybe when you are in a friendship dynamic that feels one-sided, it becomes the you good versus I've done something wrong, they don't like me, I'm always showing up.
• 17:13
  Danyelle: And I think it flips this individualism that feels like it's growing more and more and more.
• 17:20
  Danyelle: Isolation, being away from it flips it on its head of, hey, uh, I'm sad.
• 17:29
  Danyelle: Are you okay?
• 17:30
  Danyelle: This probably isn't about me.
• 17:32
  Danyelle: And I still want to make sure that you're good.
• 17:35
  Michelle: How can I be a good friend to you?
• 17:36
  Michelle: Like, what do you need?
• 17:38
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 17:38
  Danyelle: And I mean that, right?
• 17:40
  Danyelle: We talked, we had a whole episode last season about attachment styles.
• 17:44
  Danyelle: And the same way that overfunctioning and underfunctioning often is a trauma response.
• 17:52
  Danyelle: Layering in attachment style here, I think, is really, really important.
• 17:57
  Michelle: And not surprising that we're fitting perfectly just perfectly into that.
• 18:02
  Michelle: And anxious with overfunctioning, avoidant and underfunctioning.
• 18:08
  Danyelle: And you know, there is this stepping in and stepping back, and attachment styles show us this other side of what's really happening.
• 18:23
  Danyelle: If you have a friend who you see is not responding, you're looking back at the text thread and you're like, hmm, what else is there?
• 18:34
  Danyelle: What else is going on?
• 18:37
  Danyelle: In prepping for this episode, a part of me was like, Oh yeah, that's messed up if you're the friend who's showing up.
• 18:43
  Danyelle: But what we're really trying to name is how do we show up for people?
• 18:49
  Danyelle: How do we ask for what we need?
• 18:51
  Michelle: Yes.
• 18:52
  Danyelle: How are we able to say, this doesn't work for me, or I need you to give more?
• 18:59
  Danyelle: And then be able to receive whatever comes after.
• 19:03
  Danyelle: Whatever comes with I'm going through it, or oh my goodness, I didn't even know.
• 19:10
  Danyelle: Being able to create the space for the conversation to really understand what's going on.
• 19:16
  Michelle: Yeah, because it's so funny that this conversation literally happened today, because what a full circle moment where I would have, I mean, who's text someone six times over the course of two months with no response and doesn't take it personally?
• 19:33
  Michelle: You know, like, especially for those of us that are hyper connected, it's like you are genuinely ignoring me.
• 19:40
  Michelle: And if I had taken it hyper personally and not continued to reach out, I would have missed that that person was really going through it.
• 19:48
  Michelle: And obviously, I wish that I could help them, but that's not what they're asking for right now.
• 19:52
  Michelle: And so by being open and creating that container for like, I know something is up, I just want to make sure you're okay.
• 20:00
  Michelle: I get to assuage my anxious attachment.
• 20:03
  Michelle: I get to ask, hey, I'm acknowledging this may not be about me.
• 20:08
  Michelle: And I also let them off the hook so they are free to go through what they're going through without feeling like they're then hurting me, you know?
• 20:14
  Michelle: Yes.
• 20:15
  Michelle: Because it genuinely isn't about me.
• 20:17
  Michelle: And frankly, if it was or is in the future, they're allowed to say so.
• 20:21
  Michelle: But I don't have to be guessing now.
• 20:24
  Danyelle: Again, it's that space to know, and you're not filling in the blanks, right?
• 20:29
  Danyelle: You're not ad-libbing here.
• 20:30
  Danyelle: You're like, oh, this person is dealing with something, I can hold that, versus it's been two months, I've had six reach outs, and there's nothing.
• 20:40
  Danyelle: Obviously, it's about me.
• 20:42
  Danyelle: And then all that gets created in that.
• 20:45
  Danyelle: All of the ick.
• 20:46
  Danyelle: And then that person reaches out, maybe on the other side, maybe not, and you're ready to fight.
• 20:52
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 20:52
  Danyelle: You're like, well, where have you been?
• 20:54
  Danyelle: Versus being able to meet them with, I'm glad you're back.
• 20:58
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 20:59
  Michelle: And that's such a gift to be able to offer that you're allowed to come back, that this will be a safe space when you're ready.
• 21:08
  Michelle: And that's not to say that I may not have a need or something to say on the other end, but it doesn't need to be right now.
• 21:14
  Michelle: You know, when you're going through it.
• 21:16
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 21:17
  Michelle: Something else that's also sort of connected to that idea of showing up in different ways as overfunctioning or underfunctioning or just functioning in general, is that we're in different phases of our lives that allow us to show up in different ways.
• 21:33
  Michelle: For my wife, there have been years for her birthday where one year I did a scavenger hunt and surprised her with a trip to New York.
• 21:41
  Michelle: And then our friends met us there, and she got taken to the airport in a limo.
• 21:45
  Michelle: I mean, it was full on, and I had capacity.
• 21:48
  Michelle: And now I have a child, and I'm like, I bought you this thing last month, you're good, right?
• 21:53
  Michelle: You know, and that's not a function of how much I care or don't care for her, it's a function of capacity.
• 22:00
  Michelle: So, so a number one.
• 22:02
  Michelle: And then number two, bringing it into this current moment with us where we're both showing up with our attachment styles, we're both showing up with where we're more comfortable functioning in relationship.
• 22:13
  Michelle: And there have been moments where I've said, actually, I'm going to take on this task for us in the podcast, not because I'm overfunctioning, but because I have space and it's an area that I enjoy.
• 22:23
  Michelle: And I think what this leads us into is how do we better communicate our capacity, where we're at, what I hate using the word love language because to me it's very attached to that guy who wrote the creepy book.
• 22:38
  Michelle: Maybe I shouldn't even say that.
• 22:39
  Danyelle: The most creepy book.
• 22:40
  Danyelle: No, we can say it.
• 22:41
  Michelle: The the creepy book that was really about men not having to do shit and still get laid.
• 22:47
  Michelle: But but the idea that we have ways that we each prefer to show affection, and that it's often many of them.
• 22:56
  Michelle: But that what you have to offer is this love for your kiddo.
• 23:01
  Michelle: And I can do a tarot reading.
• 23:02
  Michelle: And I just posted on our Patreon today about when I was like broke with a capital B and was someone's maid of honor.
• 23:11
  Michelle: And while I couldn't show up in the same way as the other bridesmaids financially, I painted two paintings of her dogs for a wedding gift.
• 23:20
  Michelle: And I took film photography at the ceremony and, you know, and I was able to go to all the fittings because I had flexibility in my schedule.
• 23:28
  Michelle: I just couldn't buy the$250 a pair of shoes, you know.
• 23:32
  Michelle: So how knowing this and having the language, how can you better communicate with your beloveds, with your platonic loves, with your besties about what you have to give, what's meaningful to you?
• 23:45
  Michelle: And then you can sort of negotiate from a place of knowing what works for you in that relationship.
• 23:51
  Michelle: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 23:53
  Michelle: Gold star for me.
• 23:55
  Danyelle: I just, it was such an unlock to understand capacity and something that as somebody who's chronically ill and experiences all sorts of low capacity moments and really struggled to articulate that.
• 24:11
  Danyelle: And that is something that I have to negotiate in friendship.
• 24:15
  Danyelle: It's something that we have to negotiate when I'm like, girl, I can't meet today.
• 24:20
  Danyelle: And I think what you're speaking to is capacity along a spectrum.
• 24:24
  Danyelle: You're there's so many different ways that we hold or have capacity, and it does change.
• 24:33
  Danyelle: I often have capacity to do things like watch your kid or show up.
• 24:38
  Danyelle: I don't have a lot of capacity to go on your 40th birthday trip because I couldn't walk.
• 24:44
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 24:44
  Danyelle: Because I was like really dealing with some medical stuff.
• 24:47
  Danyelle: And like that sucks.
• 24:48
  Danyelle: That sucks.
• 24:49
  Danyelle: And I think about something as an underfunctioner.
• 24:53
  Danyelle: It's really hard for me to communicate.
• 24:55
  Danyelle: It's really hard for me to communicate, no, or I can't, or I'm sorry.
• 25:00
  Danyelle: I feel a lot of shame.
• 25:02
  Danyelle: I feel a lot of like I'm not a good friend because I can't do these things, because I can't show up.
• 25:10
  Danyelle: And I think it is important to name attachment styles in this because it's all connected.
• 25:17
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 25:17
  Danyelle: It's easier for me to say, hey, I need to be honest about my capacity today.
• 25:23
  Danyelle: What is the rest of the week look like?
• 25:26
  Danyelle: Because we have secure attachment.
• 25:29
  Danyelle: When you're not leading with that in friendship or when you're not having those conversations, I know because I don't have secure attachment in all of my relationships.
• 25:40
  Danyelle: I know that it's harder.
• 25:42
  Danyelle: It's harder for me to say, this is my capacity and I'm going to be underfunctioning.
• 25:48
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 25:48
  Michelle: And I imagine that sometimes it's at odds with what you genuinely want to do.
• 25:54
  Michelle: And so there's like a pause there between really admitting what's possible.
• 25:59
  Michelle: I do want to take a moment, not that she needs it, but to plug Lena Dunham's book, Fame Sick, because it is essentially an outline of chronic illness and how it sneaks up on you and the ways in which our society is not built in any way to deal with people who are not 100% able-bodied.
• 26:22
  Michelle: There's not a freaking, even just a metal chair at a restaurant, you know, those ones, those horrendous chairs that doesn't kill my back or dig into my hips.
• 26:31
  Michelle: It's like this world is really built, and then that's just on the physical side, let alone mental health.
• 26:38
  Michelle: It's such a big part of why we're building what we're building here.
• 26:40
  Michelle: The third thing, because we're humans and we do require flexibility.
• 26:44
  Michelle: And especially when one or both of us is dealing with chronic illness, having that can be the difference between making a living or not, and you know, being happy or not.
• 26:56
  Michelle: But in Lena Dunham's book, she really talks about how there can be fatigue in being in a relationship or especially working with someone who has chronic illness because you sort of can't understand.
• 27:09
  Michelle: And when you are that person, how do you communicate it?
• 27:12
  Michelle: And you feel like you should be over it, and other people are like, you got your hysterectomy.
• 27:16
  Michelle: Why are you not better yet?
• 27:18
  Michelle: And so I think that's an important part of this too.
• 27:22
  Michelle: A part of capacity is that there are also these extremes that we're not culturally versed in yet, or who knows if we ever will be, is how to deal with the things that's sort of outside the norm.
• 27:35
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 27:36
  Danyelle: I mean, yeah, we live in such an ableist society.
• 27:39
  Danyelle: And I mean, it took me a long time, you know, like just in the past three years, do I feel comfortable talking about being a person with chronic illness?
• 27:49
  Danyelle: Right.
• 27:49
  Danyelle: Because it makes it uncomfortable.
• 27:52
  Danyelle: It's hard.
• 27:53
  Danyelle: I don't want to make people uncomfortable.
• 27:54
  Danyelle: I want to show up.
• 27:55
  Danyelle: I want to have a body that can work the way that other people's bodies work.
• 28:00
  Danyelle: I've not read the book yet, but you've talked about it and I definitely want to read it because it sounds like there's some parallel in our experiences.
• 28:08
  Michelle: And it's also wildly not parallel in some ways.
• 28:11
  Michelle: So be ready for that.
• 28:12
  Michelle: She's like a waspy white person on the East Coast.
• 28:15
  Michelle: So, you know, many differences there.
• 28:17
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 28:18
  Michelle: With the health journey.
• 28:19
  Michelle: Yeah, with like two very doting parents and like money to pay for things.
• 28:23
  Michelle: But wow.
• 28:24
  Michelle: But but and still, yeah.
• 28:26
  Michelle: Like you can be that resourced and still, yeah.
• 28:31
  Danyelle: I love that you brought up capacity and it's a great segue to just this whole conversation has really we started with like, are you the one who gives too much?
• 28:42
  Danyelle: And we've really rolled it into what is under all of it.
• 28:46
  Danyelle: If you have a friend who is under under functioning, what's happening for them?
• 28:51
  Danyelle: What's up?
• 28:51
  Danyelle: What is their experience?
• 28:54
  Danyelle: And being able to have a built-in foundation to really have the conversation of what's happening versus holding it.
• 29:04
  Danyelle: If you have a friend who's over functioning, what's the like breathe?
• 29:09
  Danyelle: Yeah, slow down, rest.
• 29:12
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 29:13
  Danyelle: What is happening?
• 29:14
  Danyelle: We think about this as like a one-sided friendship or doing too much.
• 29:20
  Danyelle: There's always something under it.
• 29:22
  Danyelle: And I think it's also really important to say friendships are never equal.
• 29:26
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 29:27
  Danyelle: It's we will never be 50-50 because we're human, because of capacity.
• 29:33
  Danyelle: There's a world in which, because I don't have a kid and you do, we won't be even.
• 29:39
  Danyelle: Because you have another mouth to feed and talk with.
• 29:44
  Danyelle: And we just won't be, we won't be even in these ways.
• 29:47
  Danyelle: And I don't think that should ever be the expectation.
• 29:50
  Michelle: I think that's really important.
• 29:52
  Michelle: And I wanna speak to my fellow overachievers.
• 29:58
  Michelle: Are you doing it out of love because you're showing up and it truly brings you happiness?
• 30:04
  Michelle: Are you giving that gift because you know it's gonna stoke them out?
• 30:08
  Michelle: Or is the expectation that they will do the exact same thing for you?
• 30:12
  Michelle: And I think it's an important question because I have surely done both.
• 30:17
  Michelle: I love giving gifts when it's something that really reminds me of that person.
• 30:22
  Michelle: And I've also learned to turn it off.
• 30:24
  Michelle: I told one of my very good friends, Jess, who's someone I really admire, not just as a as a friend, but also her style is just impeccable and embodied, if I may.
• 30:39
  Michelle: But I went on a on a honeymoon and I came back and it was over her birthday.
• 30:43
  Michelle: And I said, My gift to you is that I didn't bring you anything back.
• 30:48
  Michelle: She died laughing because I really did have my eye out for her, and nothing caught my eye.
• 30:53
  Michelle: But I was like, you know what, she doesn't need is a tchotke that's not really her that she's just gonna throw away anyway.
• 30:59
  Michelle: And that was me coming from a place of love.
• 31:02
  Michelle: Like I really thought of you, and I just didn't find anything, you know, and giving myself that permission.
• 31:08
  Michelle: And when I am sort of over what are we calling it?
• 31:12
  Michelle: Overfunctioning.
• 31:14
  Michelle: Am I anxious?
• 31:16
  Michelle: Do I feel loved by this person?
• 31:20
  Michelle: Do I need something from them?
• 31:22
  Michelle: And then I can make that request instead of trying to sneak my way around it or avoid the conversation.
• 31:30
  Danyelle: And I think for the underfunctioners, like, do you feel loved?
• 31:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Danyelle: Do you feel anxious?
• 31:38
  Danyelle: Do you feel scared?
• 31:39
  Danyelle: Do you feel avoidance?
• 31:41
  Danyelle: What is keeping you from stepping up?
• 31:43
  Danyelle: What is keeping you from, for me, not wanting to fail as a friend, not wanting to, you know, when you're friends with someone who's an overfunctioner and does things really well, are you coming from this place of, yeah, I can never do it as good?
• 32:00
  Danyelle: So I'm not gonna try.
• 32:02
  Danyelle: I'm gonna be like, hi, I'm here, and that is enough because anything else more, it would probably be bad.
• 32:10
  Michelle: I wanna say, as an offering for our tools as well, that I think you said this in in our opening episode for this season was that this podcast has been giving you and us new tools for friendship, even though we're the ones teaching it and talking about it.
• 32:28
  Michelle: One of the things that has really helped me, your fellow Ova Functioner, is that you've said, I've got this, because I will just default to doing it, not out of any cruelty or malice, but I will just do it.
• 32:42
  Michelle: And you've been able to step up and remind me, hey, I'm here too.
• 32:48
  Michelle: And whether it's this skill or this time period where I want to step in or step up, you've used your voice, and I think that is a function of secure attachment, but also that we each keep inviting each other into the process.
• 33:01
  Michelle: We don't just assume our roles and never talk about it.
• 33:05
  Michelle: Yes.
• 33:05
  Danyelle: I love this so much because yeah.
• 33:09
  Danyelle: And it's interesting too, because as you're talking, I'm thinking about the ways that I was like, oh, she just did it again, and I'm not good enough.
• 33:18
  Danyelle: She thinks I'm not good enough.
• 33:20
  Danyelle: And like, no, girl.
• 33:23
  Michelle: But you did ask me, you were like, hey, I notice you keep doing the newsletter.
• 33:28
  Michelle: Like, do you know that I can do it?
• 33:31
  Michelle: Do you think that I can't do it?
• 33:32
  Michelle: And I was like, neither of those things.
• 33:35
  Michelle: I just am an eldest daughter, I'm an Aries, I'm a very independent functioner, and I am really used to, I think there's this inherent distrust or unsafety in letting other people help you.
• 33:52
  Danyelle: In delegation.
• 33:53
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 33:54
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 33:54
  Michelle: That like the only way that I can be truly safe is if I do it myself.
• 33:59
  Michelle: And so it's an unlearning, and it's so worth it because then you do let other people in, and you're like, oh, it was okay.
• 34:09
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 34:09
  Michelle: And it turned out okay, and they did show up for me.
• 34:12
  Michelle: And the times when it doesn't work out perfectly, that's still learning, and I survived.
• 34:18
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 34:18
  Michelle: We survived.
• 34:19
  Danyelle: We did.
• 34:19
  Danyelle: We did.
• 34:20
  Danyelle: That's what bubbled up the service for you today.
• 34:25
  Danyelle: Oh.
• 34:28
  Michelle: I have just so much compassion for the younger versions of us that didn't feel loved and were seeking love and or didn't feel worthy.
• 34:39
  Michelle: And I can look through so many of the hardships in teenage years with friends and so much of the hurt.
• 34:47
  Michelle: And it's so crystal clear now that it was never, it was never about what you thought it was.
• 34:54
  Michelle: Like truly never.
• 34:55
  Michelle: Like it's a once in a blue moon occurrence that it's like, actually, you're the worst person ever.
• 34:59
  Michelle: And I've decided today I don't like you.
• 35:01
  Michelle: Like, more often than not, we're all just so dealing with our own shit.
• 35:06
  Michelle: And so what bubbles to the surface for me is I'm just so glad to be able to take a step back and stay curious.
• 35:18
  Michelle: And that's not to say that I never make assumptions or don't experience that hurt, but the biggest gift is pause and asking, is this real or can I ask for clarity if I'm confused?
• 35:30
  Michelle: And it just gets you to the other side so much faster.
• 35:34
  Danyelle: Yeah, I love that.
• 35:36
  Danyelle: I think for me it's this remembering that there's always more to it, that it's not the thing I'm immediately thinking.
• 35:49
  Danyelle: That pause gives me so much information.
• 35:55
  Danyelle: And it's a good reminder that I still have stories to unpack.
• 36:03
  Danyelle: That I still have parts of myself that are saying my best friend of 26 years, who I now work with, thinks I'm bad at newsletters.
• 36:12
  Danyelle: You know, and like horrible mail chimp.
• 36:20
  Danyelle: And like let it go, girl.
• 36:22
  Danyelle: You know, like like reach out to your therapist and you know, get some brain spotting on that one.
• 36:27
  Danyelle: But like for real, you know, and and like that it doesn't we just said, right?
• 36:34
  Danyelle: We're here creating the container for the tools and the conversation because it supports us too.
• 36:42
  Danyelle: Yeah, it it absolutely has changed the way that our next chapters will look.
• 36:50
  Michelle: Will you pull this card, please?
• 36:51
  Danyelle: I will.
• 36:52
  Danyelle: You know, we started this episode with one-sided and we end it with it's always deeper than that.
• 36:59
  Michelle: It's always deeper.
• 37:00
  Michelle: It's always deeper.
• 37:00
  Michelle: It's always an underbelly.
• 37:02
  Danyelle: What do the cards have to say about the underbelly?
• 37:09
  Danyelle: Not the tower.
• 37:11
  Michelle: Oh no.
• 37:14
  Danyelle: Oh, I'm not really supposed to do two anymore.
• 37:19
  Danyelle: I mean, you can.
• 37:20
  Danyelle: Okay, but I'll do fast.
• 37:21
  Michelle: Yeah, if it's if you're being called to.
• 37:23
  Danyelle: Well, the tower and the sun.
• 37:25
  Danyelle: There you go.
• 37:25
  Danyelle: I mean, okay.
• 37:27
  Danyelle: The sun was bottom of the deck.
• 37:29
  Danyelle: And I'm really thinking about this as like sometimes things have to fall down for you to keep moving forward.
• 37:36
  Danyelle: We talk about the Phoenix rising from the ashes, but we forget that the phoenix has to burn first.
• 37:42
  Danyelle: And that's what the tower card is.
• 37:44
  Danyelle: The tower card is really saying the foundation in which something is built on is faulty.
• 37:51
  Michelle: What you think you know, or what you think about how you're showing up is potentially not real and you need to reframe.
• 37:58
  Danyelle: Not real or it doesn't serve you anymore.
• 38:03
  Danyelle: Not real, or this used to feel safe.
• 38:07
  Danyelle: In high school, I imagine it felt good for you to be doing these things.
• 38:12
  Danyelle: And it was driven by I want to do nice things for friends, you know.
• 38:18
  Danyelle: For me, it's safety.
• 38:20
  Danyelle: What the tower card is inviting us and our younger selves to say is like, no, not anymore.
• 38:28
  Danyelle: Slow down, speed up, meet each other.
• 38:32
  Danyelle: And what is then there?
• 38:34
  Danyelle: The sun card being the underlying energy is like, it's bright, it's sunny.
• 38:41
  Danyelle: Let yourself have that sunshine on your skin as you're digging through the rubble.
• 38:47
  Danyelle: You know, again, we know that the Phoenix will rise again.
• 38:51
  Danyelle: So this sun tower combination to me is really saying, yeah, sometimes you're gonna have to do some of the work that's uncomfortable, but it's always for the greater good.
• 39:01
  Danyelle: It's always for bringing yourself into the light and being shined on.
• 39:07
  Michelle: I love that so much.
• 39:08
  Michelle: And I know we'll put up the writer Smith visuals, but these that I'm looking at, it's like the tower is on fire and crumbling and smoking, and there's ravens circling it.
• 39:20
  Michelle: And it really is this like dismantling of, and the sun card is sunflowers and sunshine and white horses.
• 39:28
  Michelle: And I think that's what we really came that full circle today of I'm over, I'm under.
• 39:35
  Michelle: And then we really come to this modern day moment where we get to name our insecurities, we get to name our capacity, we get to allow space for each other to show up, we allow for help and yeah, and that we get to be stronger for it.
• 39:51
  Michelle: So I know I don't always weigh in on the cards, but I think these are it's almost like too perfect.
• 39:58
  Michelle: As they have been.
• 39:59
  Michelle: Yes.
• 40:00
  Michelle: All right, well, see you next week.
• 40:02
  Danyelle: Have a good one.
• 40:03
  Michelle: Bye.
• 40:04
  Michelle: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 40:08
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at the Third ThingPod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 40:16
  Michelle: Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it.
• 40:19
  Danyelle: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 40:27
  Michelle: The link is in the show notes.
• 40:29
  Michelle: If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us.
• 40:34
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.