Latest / Long Distance Friends / Body-Positivity in Kids, Food and Halloween Candy + Disordered Eating - with Rachel Sellers
Transcript
- Rachel: they say, mom, I'm feeling fat. what they often mean under that, that's code for I'm feeling shame, I'm feeling disgust, there is emotional pain that they don't know what to do with. I think sometimes it's paraded on the internet, is just like love yourself. body image work is trauma work. Like often it is deep work. Anna Casey: Wow. Rachel: It's about how I think, how I feel, the stories that I've lived, Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: what's happened to my body. We don't have to be perfect, but we can give them the gift of stewarding their bodies well and knowing that their worth is inherent. Anna Casey: Hey everybody, and welcome back to Long Distance Friends. Today I have on Rachel Sellers. Rachel is a licensed professional counselor, teacher, and speaker who specializes in eating disorders, body image, and the relationship between trauma, mental health, and our bodies. With a background in elementary education and advanced training in somatic psychotherapy, Rachel is passionate about helping individuals and families. Build a more compassionate relationship with food and their bodies. She also supports parents in deepening connection with their children and breaking generational patterns. my gosh, Rachel Sellers, welcome to Long Distance Friends. Rachel: Thanks for having me. Anna Casey: So for those who don't know, social media is super cool because I have been wanting to have this conversation about body positivity and body neutrality and just the general the general conversation about how can we mold and shape our are little tiny humans into humans that love their body and have a positive relationship with their body and a positive relationship with food. And so I did not have anyone in my circle that I felt could have like had the credentials for this conversation. So I posted and I said, help me, does anybody know somebody? That is qualified to have this conversation. And shout out to Talia Olivia because she connected us and you Rachel: Yeah. She did. Anna Casey: are the most you like the best person to have this conversation, Rachel. So thank you so much for coming on today and for being all of our new long distance friend. Rachel: Thanks for having me. That's one of the like s interesting things about social media. Like the connections that I've made is just it's just silly. And fun how that happens. Anna Casey: so Rachel, first off, can you please explain somatic psychotherapy like I'm five years old? Rachel: Yes. Yes. It's a great question. yes, somatic psychotherapy is a pretty broad term, but basically what it means is that we do more of embodiment work, more bringing Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: the body into the conversation work, more In your body? How do you know that? What are the sensations that are present there? So essentially it's kind of this beautiful thing that we get to do alongside more traditional talk therapy, which tends to be Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: more in the literature they would call it top-down, which basically just means it's more heady. Like in traditional talk therapy, we're we're really working in the space of like thoughts and beliefs. In somatic work, we're working a little bit more in the space of sensation and emotion. And neither approaches. Anna Casey: Okay. Rachel: necessarily the best it's just that they actually I believe really complement each other really well. and Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: so I do both. I I blend blend both, but I'm getting trained in something called somatic experiencing which is for those are familiar with trauma work, Dr. Peter Levine's work, it's it's his modality of of trauma resolution that is really amazing. I mean I'm not I'm gonna stop there 'cause I could really squirrel brain on S E somatic experiencing and I'm not. but that that is Anna Casey: Hey squirrel away. Rachel: where I'm being trained and just have yeah a lot of really Anna Casey: Okay. Rachel: beautiful things to say about that. Anna Casey: So, so cool, so cool. So we had a a birth trauma therapist on like my second episode and she was talking about the benefits of EMDR and birth trauma therapy. And so would that be under the somatic umbrella? Okay, amazing. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. yeah, and also under the trauma umbrella too. So whenever we're working with trauma in the room, we always want to make sure we're bringing the body and the nervous system into that healing because that's really where the trauma lives and breathes. Anna Casey: Cool. I'm so fascinated. I'm so excited for all that we're gonna talk about today. so what do you see day to day with your clients? Like you you're coming on here and you have just seen several clients today. So what what's like the the normal thing that you're seeing and the age range and the issues that you guys are working through? Rachel: Yeah, so I my background is working with children. and I have a play therapy background too. And so I I did a lot of my early work working with younger kids and then really kind of learned throughout the early days of my career, I guess, that I could make actually more of an impact on kids by working with their parents. and then really knew that I wanted to work with eating disorders and kind of by by way of that it it brought me to teens, and young adults and then I you know, now that I work with parents, I really do see like across the lifespan at this point in my career, which I love. Like my brain needs the different age ranges and or just the different ages, 'cause I tend to thrive in that space. But primarily work a lot with disordered eating, eating disorders, trauma. work with a lot of anxiety and depression. that's most of what I'm seeing right now. Anna Casey: Wow. Okay, so what's the youngest client that you have and what's the oldest? Rachel: You know, right now I would say so I also have a four year old daughter of my own and when I had her, Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: some of the logistics of like working with younger kids just means that you're in the office late at night because they need to see you after school. and so Anna Casey: Mm. Yeah. Rachel: that's there's a little bit of a logistical piece as to why I'm not like working so much just with like young kids right now. because I wanna be home at night with her. But I would say right now my youngest client is probably twelve. and my oldest client is client is like mid fifties. Anna Casey: Wow, that's so neat. I do feel like our generation we are really passionate about this as a whole. At least that's my experience. with me and my friends, it seems to be like relationship with body, relationship with food is just something that we tend to be really passionate about, and with that I know that that comes with the anxiety of like my gosh, it's my responsibility to make sure that my kid like has this healthy relationship with their body, has this healthy relationship with food. And I know that healing starts with us and it starts with us being healed and us having a good relationship with our bodies and modeling that. what would you say though is the most impactful thing that we can do to model positive body image for our kids? Rachel: So it's such a good question and I think in a way, in the in the way you asked the question, you sort of answered the question, which is like engaging Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: in our own work. Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: because kids' brains are designed in a way that they learn by what we do, not by what we say. Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: they're mimickers, they learn through mimicry, that is part of their design. and so I think that it's something that I sometimes will see is like, and especially women in our generation who understandably so, because this culture sucks, like are really struggling, but they like really have that anxiety of like, but I don't want to pass this down, right? Anna Casey: Mm. Yeah. Yes. Rachel: And so sometimes what can happen is there's becomes this mismatch of I'm telling my kid I want her to know that she's beautiful. I want her to know that there's nothing wrong with her body. But what is Anna Casey: Yeah. Yes. Rachel: she learning through watching me and how I'm treating my body? Because kids Anna Casey: Yes. So good. Rachel: Yeah. Kids are really good at detecting BS. And that's a beautiful thing about them. Like, that is something Anna Casey: Mm, mm. Rachel: that I don't think we celebrate enough about kids, honestly. their Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: way just to like see the truth. And so I think that like we wanna put our words where our behaviors are and Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: As imperfectly as we can. Like we don't that and that's the other thing is like we don't Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: have to be perfectly healed. Like we as moms, I think, have to free ourselves from that expectation because if that's the expectation that I have to be perfect and never struggle and never have a bad body image day, then that's like you're setting yourself up for failure. Anna Casey: Sure. Yeah. That's so good. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. That's such a great distinction. Rachel: Because you live in a body in this culture, right? So it's like you don't have to be I think sometimes we get this whole like you need to heal your stuff and then what we hear is like you need to be perfect so that your kids don't mess get messed up by you. And it's like Yeah, engage in your work. Like, if you know that like you are as a mom still struggling and there's like some hyperfixation around food and your body and exercise or it's taking up a lot of brain space in your in your head, then like, yeah, go go like get the support you need. That's really important. And I think also just like acknowledging our our humanity in that feels important too. Anna Casey: Yeah. that's so good. That's such a good distinction. Cause you're right, I mean, yes, I think I do that where I'm like, I need to be perfect so that I don't like traumatize my daughter. So, yeah, that's Rachel: Me too. Yeah. Gosh. Target. Yeah. Anna Casey: so good. so I have been on my own body relationship healing journey. one of the books that has been really helpful for me, and it's not even in the psychology world, but it's Breaking Free from Body Shame by Jess Connolly. Rachel: Yeah, yep, I know that one. Anna Casey: and That was the first time that someone had told me about body neutrality. because we hear a lot about body positivity, right? But sometimes there's just Rachel: We do. Anna Casey: that like it it feels so far reaching for some of us because it feels like such a leap, right? And so will you break down What is body neutrality and how can it be helpful in this space of working on ourselves and finding our own healing? Rachel: Yeah. body neutrality is awesome because it's kind of a little bit of an antidote to body positivity, although I think that they both have really important things to say. And I don't think I think sometimes we Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: people feel like they have to pick a camp. it's not either Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: or. I think we can take really, really important and meaningful things from both kind of philosophies. if you will, but body positivity, the simplest way to explain it is that body positivity kind of it keeps the focus still about the body, and it's in Anna Casey: Yes. Rachel: the appearance of the body. And it's I love Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: myself no matter what, I embrace all of my flaws, body diversity, bodies come in all shapes and sizes, all bodies are beautiful. That's gonna be more of your bod body positivity kind of mindset. Body neutrality kind of shifts the focus a little bit away from appearance and shifts it towards functionality of the body. and thinking about our bodies in terms of how my body helps me, how my body is there for Anna Casey: Hm. Rachel: me, what my body can do for me. so it and it kind of sits the mindset is more of like I don't have to love my body, I but I also don't have to hate my body. I actually can Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: just land in a more neutral space of acknowledging that sometimes how I feel about my body is gonna ebb and flow, right? Anna Casey: Mm, it's beautiful. Rachel: Body neutrality says that we are more than our bodies. And I think that's one of the pieces that I love about body neutrality is it's like I don't have to love my stretch marks to respect Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: my body. Anna Casey: That's good. Rachel: Right. Anna Casey: I I think I have been thinking that like body neutrality is I don't care about my body. Like it's just like a s a skin suit, right? Or it's just like, you know, yes, yes. I feel Rachel: Skin suit. Yes. who says that? Anna Casey: like I don't know. I don't know where that came from. Someone must be saying it, but Rachel: Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah. Anna Casey: like it's just like the thing that you that like houses your your soul and your spirit Rachel: Yeah. Anna Casey: and it's just like there. But that doesn't feel that doesn't feel right either. You know, it's like too It's two extremes. but that's so helpful. So body positivity, focusing on even more like the physical appearance maybe, but just like loving your body and body neutrality being more like what can my body do for me. Rachel: Yep. Exactly. I do think there's a little bit of nuance when we're talking about things like body-based discrimination, when we're talking about people who live with chronic illness or in a body that doesn't function the way that they want it to function. Anna Casey: Sure, yeah. Yep. Rachel: So I think that's important to name too, that sometimes people can hear kind of about this Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: this whole body neutrality thing and they're like, actually me thinking about like being appreciative or having respect for how my body does act. Actually, just reminds me of how my body has failed me. and so Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: I just say that to name that everyone's story is really unique. And I think some people really love body neutrality, and I think it has so much to offer and so much to give. And there can be a lot of nuances in like how we're approaching this conversation with people that live in differently abled bodies. So I always just want to name that. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's so good. Yeah, thank you, Rachel. That's that's so good. one thing I wanted to make sure that we talked about was mealtimes with kids. And I know you're right in the thick of this with your four year old. Rachel: Chaos. Spear chaos. Anna Casey: I'm certainly right in the thick of this with a four year old and a one and a half year old. but can we talk about Mealtime and snacks and all of the ideas and thoughts it just feels like such an important time to invest in how we're talking about this, right? And so Rachel: Mm-hmm. Anna Casey: like for instance, serving dessert with dinner, not serving dessert like after dinner as a treat or like a reward for like eating your broccoli. Rachel: Yeah. Anna Casey: not having one food on a pedestal over the other. Or Rachel: Mm-hmm. Anna Casey: like not using treats as rewards. so are there any practical things that you would suggest regarding meals or snacks where we can help our little people like not plant any sort of negative ideas or thoughts Rachel: Yeah. Anna Casey: in their brain about certain foods. Rachel: Yeah, it's such great questions and you named a couple of really helpful ways that you're already doing that. one of the things that I often talk to parents about is and I I so feel this as a mom that sometimes I say too many words and I don't need to talk so much about things. and so Anna Casey: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rachel: a phrase I will often use within my own mind is like use less words and less qualifiers, right? Like when I'm talking about Anna Casey: Yeah. Yes. Rachel: food. Like Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: I don't have to give it a qualifier. I don't have to put it in a category. It's not good or bad. It's not healthy or unhealthy. It's not, you know, toxic. Anna Casey: Yes. Mm-hmm. Rachel: That's the one I hear a lot about that like, you know Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: well-meaning, well-loving parents who want health for their children, you know, I never I don't Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: think it ever really comes from a place of wanting to h hurt anybody. But you know, I hear that one a lot, is like, this is toxic. And I think that's especially true in Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: like today's cultural moment where wellness is having a moment, which is not all bad. But I Anna Casey: Mm. Mm-hmm. Rachel: think that one, especially for young kids, is they don't get like when they hear toxic, like their brains are in a concrete concrete operational developmental period, depending on what age group we're talking about. But young children, they literally think like toxic, in the same way that like poisonous, like venomous, like the snakes, Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: you know, we spend a lot of time with our family outside and so we talk about poisonous, venomous snakes. And you know, so a Anna Casey: Yes. Rachel: kid's brain is gonna be like, if Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: I eat that, I could get really sick. They don't have the ability to know what we mean. Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: You know, when we're talking necessarily about ingredients that are toxic. And so I think avoiding the binaries of good, bad, right, wrong, healthy, unhealthy, can be really helpful. And I encourage parents to talk about, just name the variety that's on their plate. Like, broccoli is broccoli, Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: ice cream is ice cream. Like, foods are just what they are. There's really no need to say anything more than that. Anna Casey: one thing I feel like I hear a lot is good job for good job for finishing your plate or good job for eating all of your food and it always like makes me like Nails on a chalkboard because I'm like, Rachel: Yeah, I Anna Casey: listen I'm I'm not saying I'm perfect either, but I feel like I've like come a long way where I'm like, don't say that Rachel: Yeah. Anna Casey: because then you're praising them for finishing their food. that's not the skill or like the value set that we're trying to work on Rachel: That's right. Anna Casey: here. It's listening to their bodies and listening to their hunger cues How do you feel about good job listening to your tummy versus like good job finishing your plate? Did I nail it? Yes. Rachel: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. You nailed you nailed it. Yes. It's a great job. Yes. Like, yes. the goal is not a clean plate. it's it's actually really helpful for kids to attune learn to attune differently, right? And I think that for us to as parents to encourage them to check in with their bodies. And and I've certainly been in those moments where like my daughter will be at the dinner table, she'll have eaten like two bites of food and I'm like, You are not full. Like, you are not full, right? But in s I and Anna Casey: Yeah. Yeah. Rachel: that can go two ways, right? That can go the like Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: you have to finish everything on your plate, which we don't encourage. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: But that's a really beautiful opportunity to say, hey, here's what I know. It's been a while since you've had a snack. This is our dinner time. We need to fill up our bellies before Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: we move on to our next thing, because if we don't, then we might wake up hungry. So I want you to take a second and pause and think about what your tummy might need. Right? Like and it's really just Anna Casey: Mm. That's good. Mm-hmm. Rachel: like I can prompt her to eat more Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: food because I know that she needs to eat more food without Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: saying directly, finish your plate. You need to finish everything on your plate. Right. It's like very different, right? Anna Casey: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rachel: if they say that they're full, how do they how do you know? encouraging that sensation Anna Casey: Mm mm. Rachel: language. So when when you do have a kid that says, I'm full after Eating what we might perceive as a normal amount food, like taking the opportunity to say, which I know that's really subjective and we could but for the sake of this talking point, like being able Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: to say, like, how do you know that? Like what is what what do you notice in your tummy when it when it's full? How does it feel? right? And just really just helping them get curious about how they know. Anna Casey: That's that's really good. or even like how did you feel after like a ton of candy? Like, do you feel good right now? Like Rachel: Yeah right Anna Casey: like So Rachel, Halloween is coming up. This episode is going to be released right before Halloween. So I have to ask what, how do you, I'm going to ask you, how do you with your four year old handle Halloween candy? Do you do the switch? Which do you let your child eat as much candy as they want and feel all of the feelings? Do you disperse it out and put a little candy with each meal? What is your personal opinion and take on Halloween candy in the seller's household? Rachel: okay. We do not do switch witch. because it all you're doing with that is you're putting it on a pedestal. You're elevating it. It's forbidden fruit, right? Like which actually Anna Casey: Mm. Yes. Rachel: makes it more desirable. You're more likely that your kids are gonna sneak it and try and get it in different ways. You're just like reinforcing the idea that like we need to be obsessed about this stuff. Like, and that it's a really big deal. And I and I don't think that's ever people don't understand that, maybe like Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: that that's really what's happening, like or that those are the Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: messages that are being communicated under that. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: but they're just encouraging sneaking and hiding and elevating it, right? Which we don't want it Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: to be elevated. food can be and is for nutrition, food is for pleasure, food is for fun, it is for celebration, it is for all of these things. It can all fit. It can all belong. so that Anna Casey: Yeah, it's good. Rachel: is not what we have done. nor will that ever be something that we do. I will say my daughter is four. so when and I'm gonna talk about this maybe a little more generally, but when they are younger, on the toddler side, there is legitimate like choking hazards and like that kind of stuff. Anna Casey: Sure. Ballad. Rachel: That's like I didn't give her much Halloween candy last year, and it had nothing to do with the sugar, and it had everything to do with like choking stuff and like Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: that sort of thing. and like three, four, five-year-olds, you can put boundaries around this stuff. Like this doesn't mean that there has to necessarily be a free for all where they are eating as much of it as they want. until they say, I'm done, my body sa is saying no more. I think there can be a place for that with older kids because they can attune differently, right? Like Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rachel: they can have and they have more of that interoceptive awareness to be able to like have that intuition a little more a little bit more on board. with like younger, younger kids, it is perfectly fine to set the boundary around what you feel like is like appropriate, Anna Casey: Okay. Rachel: and like normal. Here but here's a here's a really interest I think this is really interesting. Okay. So my f my daughter's four. We are like an intuitive eating family. Like we Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: have followed intuitive eating principles. Like we'll continue to do that with her. we keep candy in our home that we have access to, like lollipops and things that are Hi, my name is Rachel. I run anxious and choking is a thing for me. So I will say that. Like Anna Casey: Yes. Rachel: what I have is so take that for what you will. But Anna Casey: Hi Rachel. Rachel: But I've come a long way because yesterday she had a lollipop in the car and I was like, look at me challenging my anxiety. Anna Casey: Wow. Rachel: I know. But okay, so she went to this like festival. My husband was there. I was out of town and she got like a ton of can like a huge amount of candy. They were throwing it out of the trucks, right? So this is really her first, like she doesn't remember last year. She was like fresh three. Like she had Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: a couple of pieces of candy and honestly wasn't super interested in it, anyways. but she was like candy being thrown from cars. this is the coolest thing ever. I've won the lottery, right? And mo Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: my husband reported was so fascinating. So Number one, she came home and she was excited about it. And my husband was like, Rachel, she tried things and th that she said, I don't like this and threw stuff in the trash can. Like, Anna Casey: Cool. Rachel: I have never called candy bad. I we have never like told her she can't other, you know, than the obvious like you know what I'm talking about with the bubblegum in the middle. Like, yeah, she hasn't had those yet, right? So, Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh-huh. Rachel: But it was really cool. Like he was like Rachel, she regulated herself. She was like, that's too sour. And like there were certain like chocolates that she didn't like. Home girl, like l prefers dark chocolate. She's four. Like, we keep both kinds in our house, but like she like does like she was like, Anna Casey: Okay. It's funny. Rachel: I don't actually like, like, mama, I Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: don't like really like this. And then she found a couple things she did like. And then Anna Casey: Great? Yeah, great. Rachel: She literally said on her own, I think I'm done. can we put that in the bag and we'll save it for later? And I'm like, cool. And so Anna Casey: Aww. Rachel: we did. And we've been saving it because it's like what we're gonna give out for trick-or-treating. But like it's just so cool. Like when we have given her access, the girl eats a lollipop at least once a day. And she eats really nutritious food. She ate mushrooms and kale last night on her plate and told me it was, I quote, delicious. Like, Anna Casey: Alright. Rachel: she is an adventurous eater, and Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: it's cool because, we have arrived at a place with her where, because it's not been restricted, she's not obsessed with it. Like, Anna Casey: Yeah. Yeah. Rachel: we I keep I have a Halloween jar that I keep out. that I recently put gummy bears and sour patch whatever on it that just stays Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: out in our kitchen. And like does she ask me for it like once a day? Yeah. But like is she obsessed with it? No. Anna Casey: Yeah, that's awesome. Rachel: You know? And like We could do a whole conversation on like, yes, it's okay to set boundaries around sugar. I'm it doesn't have to always be a free for all. For some older Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yep. Rachel: kids, I think it can be really powerful to be like, hey, I just want you to listen to your body. have what you want. It's Halloween. Like, y'all chill. It is one day. Like, we're all gonna be okay. Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: you know, like really, it's okay. and it's can be really cool for them to have that experience of knowing their limits. Like Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: We don't have to rob them of them learning that. That's actually Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: really powerful for them to learn that and attune to that in their own bodies and be like, cool, I've had enough. And this will be available to me tomorrow. This will be available to me. Like that knowing that like it is available and it is not Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: off limits is actually what frees people. To have a normal, trusting relationship with it and to have a balanced relationship with it. If it's available, I don't have to eat it all right now out of scarcity and out of fear that it's never gonna be available again. Right? Anna Casey: Yeah, yeah. Rachel: I can trust. Anna Casey: Wow, that's a really cool vision of how it can be, right? When you've been practicing these skills with your kids, You said a word that I learned recently that I wanted to highlight, was interoceptive, right? Rachel: Mm. Anna Casey: interoception, is the skill of learning your body cues, right? Hunger cues, fullness cues, thirst cues, right? Is there anything you would add to that? Okay. Rachel: Yes. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yep. Anna Casey: So maybe for kids that do not have this, right? Like they just don't, they're not there yet. Halloween comes, Rachel: Yeah, no. It develops over time. Yeah. Anna Casey: you're saying, okay, it's one day parents and you're saying, Maybe this is an opportunity to try, like with your kids, just saying, hey, Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Anna Casey: eat what you want, eat what feels good, and just, and then let go. Rachel: Yeah. Hands off. Yeah. They get a tummy ache. If they get a stomachache, that's a great like I don't mean to be like mean, but like Anna Casey: Or you're saying. Rachel: that's a great learning lesson. And like Anna Casey: It's a great learning lesson. Rachel: we can trust our kids' bodies. Like they're Anna Casey: Mm-hmm Rachel: going to they're they're gonna stop. Like Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: if what's been said to them is like, yeah, Anna Casey: They won't die. Rachel: they're not gonna die of a stomach a stomachache and like if it's if the language has been like, Hey, I trust you, you're gonna know. Like, listen to your body. Like, Anna Casey: That's cool. Yeah. Rachel: trust it to tell you that like It's done. It doesn't want anymore for right now, right? You know? Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: And then I think when you're working with the kids that are more on the younger, like toddler, like early, like Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: your, you know, your threes, fours, and fives, although with a five-year-old, you could probably totally just do listen to your body. I think that would be perfectly acceptable. But for your toddlers, right? Or honestly, this is for any time you're setting a boundary around sugar, right? I'm gonna br actually broaden this and say anytime you are having to set a boundary and say no. You get to do that, but you don't this use less words. You do not have to go into a lecture about how they've eaten too much sugar and that this is gonna make them die. Like you can Anna Casey: Okay. Rachel: just say we're not having any more of that right now. These are your options if you're still hungry. You may have X, you may have Y, you may have Z. and hey, I promise there's gonna be more gummy bears available tomorrow. Like, that's All you have to say, right? And yes. Anna Casey: And that's with anything, not just Halloween candy. That's with any meal or food. A, Rachel: Yeah. Anna Casey: we're not having this. We're not having any more of this right now, period. Rachel: Yeah. Anna Casey: B, here are your options. You can have a cheese stick or some apples. C, apples and pears. C, there will be more tomorrow. Forecast the future. Okay, so there's the formula. Rachel: Yep. It's beautiful. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly. That one really that one really helps my little one 'cause it really does Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: remind her brain like Hey, I will get more of this. Like, she needs that reminder, even though it's she knows she sees it. Like she sees the Costco Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rachel: gummy bears that we keep in our home. Like she Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: she knows, her body knows that that is not a limited scarce resource, but it really does help, I think, their little like young, young toddler, early preschool minds, like to be reminded, like, hey, this isn't the remember, this isn't the only opportunity for you to have this, right? Anna Casey: Yeah, or even like six, seven, eight year olds. mean, I still see Rachel: Yeah, yes. Anna Casey: that being beneficial. OK, so your seven year old says, but why? But why? But why aren't we having more candy? What would you say? Rachel: You can say, hey, that's a really good question. I know it's really important for you to wanna know why. the candy just reiterate the boundary. Like the candy still need the candy Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: needs to go away. You know? And I think you can say, like, Anna Casey: Okay. Rachel: it's getting really close to bedtime. Like it Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: it doesn't have to be about like sugar is bad and toxic and it's gonna make you gain weight and all of these like da-da-da-da-da. Like, it's okay to say like I'm saying no because it's it's genuinely close to bedtime. And like I Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: want, you know, you could say something like, it would actually make it harder for your body to wind down tonight if I said yes. Right? That's often Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Okay. Rachel: what I'll tell my daughter, like if she's asking for more dessert after dinner and I know that it's like that's gonna not be helpful, right? and so that's what I'll say. Like, hey, I my it's my job to like set you up for success. And I know that if I say yes to this, like you're it's not gonna help you go to sleep. And I really want you to get a good night's dress. That's important for your body. and we ended at that, right? Like Anna Casey: Yeah, so good. So good, Rachel. That was so Rachel: That so that can be a good one. Anna Casey: helpful. Rachel: I think it's also okay to say, hey, we're we're saving this for other times during the week. Like and that I think is Anna Casey: Okay, yeah. Rachel: really valid for like, holy mackerel, Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: groceries are so freaking expensive right now that like It makes me wanna do this. so I think it's Anna Casey: you Rachel: also totally okay. And I've said that to my daughter before. Like, hey, Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: the cause yeah, of course, why? Like the why is like because I wanna make sure this lasts us a couple more days throughout the week, right? Like Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: and again, it's like it's not because it's and the the important thing is like we're not centering because it's bad or it's wrong to have more. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: It's just a like a Boundaries exist to keep all yeah, like it's just beneficial. Like boundary I need boundaries. Like Anna Casey: beneficial. It's just beneficial. Yeah. Yeah. Rachel: kids need boundaries to like help them feel safe. And so I think we we do have to like make th this is not a conversation where we're saying like you should never set boundaries. I think sometimes p parents hear that and I'm like, no, that's not what we're doing. Like, but how we set the boundary and the words Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Rachel: we say about the food when we set a boundary is actually very important. Anna Casey: Mm hmm. Yeah, that's good. Well, thank you for giving us the language. And now for Halloween, you have you got you can choose your own adventure. Eat whatever you want. Listen, choose Rachel: Choose your own adventure. Don't do switch, witch, don't do that. Anna Casey: your own adventure minus the switch. I love it. Okay, so taking this a little bit deeper, let's say Rachel: Yeah. Anna Casey: that our kids are all of a sudden they're starting to talk to us about their weight or about the way that they look or they don't like the way that they look. which I am not here yet and I am dreading the day when my daughter comes to me with this because I I'm gonna be heartbroken, right? Rachel: Yeah. Anna Casey: but I know that many moms who are listening to this are having these conversations. and they're they're here, like their hearts are breaking because their kids are coming to them with these like heavy, sad thoughts about the way that they look and not liking the way that they look. So what are Say, I'll say your daughter, say your daughter comes to you and she says, like, mom, I'm fat, right? What are helpful responses? Or maybe not even responses, like say less words, like you said. Maybe this is a moment for that. what are some helpful responses that A don't like invalidate their feelings, like, like you're beautiful, it's like it's fine, or Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anna Casey: that don't accidentally make their weight a bigger deal than it than it is in our response. Rachel: Gosh, it's such a good question. And it's it can actually it totally can be a an opportunity of say less words. I Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: think it also can be the first thing I'm gonna tell any parent is to pause. Like Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: Before you say anything, because your knee-jerk guttural reaction, probably as a parent, is gonna be: I wanna fix, I wanna convince you that you are beautiful exactly as you are. That's gonna be our Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: our quick, like fiery impulse. but I think when our kids and our adolescents, early teens are bringing this this question or bringing these kinds of comments, it's really actually an opportunity to attune to the deeper. pain to what's under the actual question that they're saying, right? Anna Casey: Mm, mm. Rachel: because really what they mean when let's say they come to you and they say, you know, mom, I'm feeling fat. what they often mean under that, that's code for I'm feeling shame, I'm feeling disgust, I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling I there is emotional pain that I can't name or I you know, I don't I that they don't know what to do with. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: And so I think as parents, it's a really beautiful opportunity to be able to pause, slow down the conversation, and really get like curious about what is under what's going on underneath, right? so depending on the age, I might say a couple different things. I might say, I'm so glad that you told me that. Can you tell me Anna Casey: Mm, so good. Rachel: more? Can you tell me more about how you're feeling? Because I want to get under, right? Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: I want to be curious about what's underneath it. I also think a really appropriate question, especially for more of those like preteen teens, is like, can you tell me about where you when you first thought that? Or can you tell me where you heard that? Anna Casey: Okay. Yeah. Rachel: right? Like, and really kind of like getting curious with them, helping them access like those critical thinking skills of like. Tell me more about that and also when did you learn that that was bad? Like to to Anna Casey: Hmm. Rachel: be that. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Wow. Wow. That's really good. Mm-hmm. Rachel: And what do you think about that? Right? So, and again, that would be more for your older, like teens who have a little bit more of that ability to access, really helping them get to like what have they internalized about how bodies should be? And like, Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: what do they really think about that? What's a part of their value system about what they believe about body diversity or about body neutrality or about some of these things? So Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: it's such a beautiful opportunity to get to what's underneath it. And I think sometimes what I caution parents to is you know, along I I think it's our knee-jerk reaction to sometimes maybe say like, You're not fat, you're beautiful. And when we say that, what we're actually affirming is that fatness is bad. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: And so I think we have to be really careful Anna Casey: Wow. Rachel: with that. and again, that's gonna depend on like your family's values about body diversity, right? I recognize that like my family's values around body diversity might be different from another family, right? we talk a lot, you know, in terms of our family values is we wanna be people that see people for more than their body size and that embrace Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: and that love people of all shapes and sizes and colors, right? and so Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: I think that that that's the one like thing that I I often will will say. Because I don't think people really reali they're just trying to say a helpful thing, right? They don't necessarily know Anna Casey: Sure, sure. Yeah. Rachel: that that's what they might be reinforcing. does that make sense? Okay. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. It makes a ton of sense because in your response you're showing that you that their concern is too much for you. Like you can't sit in it either because Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Anna Casey: you're trying to fix it immediately. You know what I mean? Like Rachel: Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly it. And you're shutting down the opportunity for connection and for deeper conversation. That could be really beautiful Anna Casey: Yeah. Yeah. Rachel: and really fruitful if you just like if we as Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: parents could like attune to our own regulation, right? Take that pause, take that breath and be like, Okay, actually my job right now as a parent is to get curious about what they're really feeling. Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: there's a really beautiful writer and author in the eating disorder space, Anita Johnson, and she talks a lot about how body image distress is like a decoy for deeper emotional pain, which is so true. Like oftentimes the body's be the body just kind of becomes the scapegoat. So, for like displaced feelings, right? And so a lot of the times like, you know, there's two things. We can acknowledge that living in a body and ha especially as a teenager in this cultural moment, like holy mackerel. Like I have so much compassion for my teen clients for what they're up against. And like there's so much that we could talk about with that, but like Anna Casey: I know. I know. Rachel: it is truly like we have to acknowledge that like the culture sucks. And so sometimes it is about it is about body image and it is about it is about that. And often and we also have to be aware and acknowledge that it's often deeper than that. Does that make sense? Anna Casey: Yeah, makes a ton of sense. Man, this is a whole can of worms because it's like, man. Okay, so say so say you you're talking to your kid about this and they're like they're like mom, I'm fat and you take a beat, you respond thank you for so much for like coming to me with this. Where did you first feel where did you first think that or where where did you first have those feelings of feeling fat? I feel like they would be able to just like turn their phone and be like, look, look at all these people that I'm looking at, Rachel: Yep. Yep. Anna Casey: all these women that I'm scrolling past that are very sexualized or have a very specific standard of beauty, right? and so, man, this could be an entire episode. This could be a whole series. Is there any is there anything that you would say to like parents of preteens that have a phone and they're seeing all these beauty standard constantly. Rachel: You know, I think that this is one place where actually like our empathy really can Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: like be really beautiful. Because I think there Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: are times and places where it is super appropriate. Obviously, we're it's not appropriate to deep dive our own stories and like go into like grave Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: detail about our own body image distress, but to be able to say to our kids, like, hey, being in a body is really hard. Like Your access to that, like, how could you not be comparing yourself to strangers on the internet? Like, of course, your brain is doing that. Like, that's really hard to look at that Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: and to not feel like there's like less than, right? And so I think Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: that is that is often what our kids need. They need to feel seen, right? And so I think sometimes if we can join them in the like, it is really hard to be. Anna Casey: Hmm. Yeah, it's hard for me. Rachel: A teen trying to navigate. It's hard for me, right? Like Anna Casey: Yes. Rachel: and like that is so profound. And I think sometimes we can just rush Anna Casey: Wow. Rachel: to the like Just be confident. Just just love yourself. Just like your body's so awesome. Look at what it does for you. And there's a time and a place for that. Anna Casey: Mm, mm. Rachel: Absolutely. I'm not saying we should never like encourage them in the direction Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: of like body respect and body kindness. Like we can do that, but if we don't first meet them in the like, hey, this is really hard. And I'm right here with you. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rachel: And I'm so glad you came to me. And I'm always gonna be a safe person that you can talk to these things about. Like, Anna Casey: Hmm. Rachel: that's the sauce. Anna Casey: Yeah. That's so good. What a beautiful response to the question I just teed up for you. That was so good. Thank you so much. It's beautiful. okay. Yeah, please. Mm-hmm. Rachel: Yeah. Can I say one more really quick thing? Okay, on that vein. Because I think sometimes parents then are like, Okay, but then I empathize and they're I'm like, it's this hard, but then they're like, What do I do? So I think of just like Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: by way of practical, like when we meet them and join them in that, I think we can also do this thing where we can ask them, like, hey, is there like a time when you feel a little bit better about your body? Or is there a time when like you feel a little bit less critical thoughts about your body? Anna Casey: cool. Yeah. Yeah. Rachel: when I'm with my best friend, da da da like, cause sh she doesn't talk about Anna Casey: Yeah. Mm. Rachel: the things are like I know she values X, Y, and Z, right? So I think that we can also like that's where our encouragement can can come into place. Where like we can encourage them in in the direction of attuning to something different or we can ask them a question like around body neutrality, like, hey, I know you're really struggling with this stuff. That makes so much sense. And like, is there one just even like small thing that like you're grateful for your body, like that it can do for you? Like, you know, and I the goal is not to rescue Anna Casey: Beautiful. Yeah. Rachel: them from their pain. The goal is not to like make Anna Casey: Sure. Rachel: their f their negative feelings go away, but it's kind of to bring in a little balance to like, hey, this stuff is really hard. And what sort of Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: encouragement or like orienting them towards the inherent goodness of their body can kind of come alongside that? That feels important. Okay. Thanks for letting me like go there. Anna Casey: That's really that's really, really good. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, the the questions we ask, right? That's so cool. I remember feeling that feeling as a middle school girl, like around when when do you feel good in your body? And for me it was running because that was a time when I didn't have to be put together. I didn't I I felt like competent and like capable, like in my body, you know? And I just Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Anna Casey: remember really appreciating that. And I I don't know, I think I think that's important Which Rachel: Yeah. Anna Casey: I know is a privilege in itself. But yeah, that I remember that feeling of like, hey, I feel this when I run Rachel: Like how cool that my body can do this and Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: I can experience my body in a positive way. Anna Casey: and it doesn't actually matter what I look like while I'm doing it. I can be very sweaty, I can look the worst I've looked all day, but I feel the best in my body. Rachel: Totally. Anna Casey: Yeah. Okay, so Let's talk about disordered eating, which I know you have dedicated years to and so much study. And I'm just so grateful that I get to talk to you about this. Like truly. what are the signs of maybe like the early signs of disordered eating in our kids? and what should we do if we see those signs? Rachel: Yeah. They're really, really great questions, really important questions. Okay, so restriction is a big one. If all of a sudden you start to notice that they're restricting Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: things that they didn't used to restrict, certain Anna Casey: Okay. Rachel: food groups, certain foods that you're like, you used to love that, right? And now all of a sudden you're not seeing them engage in that food. That can be a little bit of a red flag. anxiety, like sudden anxiety around food, worries about food, sometimes that comes out is like a lot of fights around mealtimes. so if they suddenly Anna Casey: Okay. Rachel: start to have like a lot of commentary about what you're making or how you made it, how you prepared it. All of a sudden they never used to care. They were just like, thanks for the food, mom. And now all of a sudden they're asking you questions about the ingredients or how much of something you use. Like these are all like little red red flags. If you start to notice like Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: exercise becoming excessive or obsessive, right? they start like not hanging out with their friends because of their new exercise routine. like it's starting to take the place of things that they used to love. If they start Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: going to the bathroom shortly after eating, if they start eating in secret, And then I think especially now with how normalized this specifically has become, but I think if there starts to be a lot of conversations around like tracking and macros and calories and weighing food. Anna Casey: Are you talking about adults or are you talking about teens? Rachel: right, but like that's such an appropriate reaction because a lot of people hear Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: these things and they're like, no, but that's healthy. And my my like my rebuttal Anna Casey: I don't think that I don't think the internet is ready to hear this, Rachel. Rachel: My rebuttal is like it might be like it might be for some people. Like, Anna Casey: Mm. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Rachel: sure, like not everybody who diets cr tur that cr you know, that evolves into an eating disorder. And for a lot of people, that does, right? and so I think that's There have been I mean, we could have a whole podcast episode on this, but there have been so many behaviors around food that have been normalized as things that Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: we have to do to be healthy that Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: I think there's a really fine line. And I think we have to be really honest about that. Do you really have to like obsessively track your food? Like Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: To be healthy? Like, I don't actually think you do. Like, yeah, if you have an allergy, like, I hope you don't eat that food. But like Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: Does your gut really hurt when you eat carbs, or do you have so much anxiety about eating bread that your stomach hurts when you eat it because you have disordered eating, right? Like, and Anna Casey: Yes. Rachel: I say like I say that with so much compassion, right? Like it's like Anna Casey: Yes. Rachel: because I think so many people have really do live in that mindset of like, this is just normal. I have to maintain this level of obsession to be healthy. Anna Casey: Or to achieve a certain aesthetic, right? so going back to our conversation with teens and kids, I had the privilege of listening to one of your podcasts about the relationship with trauma and disordered eating and how oftentimes control is a huge piece of that. And so would you would you mind sharing a little Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yep. Anna Casey: bit about the somatic psychotherapy? methods that you use, maybe like a bottom up, I believe you call it, approach when you're treating disordered eating. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. So I think one one thing that comes to mind is well, and this this feels important that you mention this as like this control piece. So a lot of a lot of what I see, not always, like eating disorders and disordered eating, it's really it's really complicated and there's never I think sometimes people want to pin down like this is the one reason why someone developed this. when it's so multifaceted and and and multi Anna Casey: Sure, yeah. Mm-hmm. Rachel: factors, control is absolutely one of those pieces. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: and I see that a lot in teens who are Maybe they're going through a really big life transition that they didn't expect, or Anna Casey: Okay. Rachel: there's some grief in their family system, or you know, there's just n like not a lot of emotion regulation in the home. There's not a lot of like emotional safety, it's not really safe to talk about big feelings, like that gets shut down, whether, you know, it's with punishment or the silent treatment or whatever, right? Like it's not safe to feel, so I have to turn inward and I'm not like expressing my pain just like won't be met with compassionate care and understanding. and so a lot of times what we see is like disordered eating can often function as a way to get core needs met, right? A need for Anna Casey: Mm, yeah. Rachel: a need for control, a need for belonging, right? Anna Casey: Yeah. Yeah. Rachel: belonging is a huge one, especially for, you know, our adolescents and our teens. Like that is like their developmental task at that point in their Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rachel: development. Is like they that that need, like not belonging, feels like Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: like true threat to their nervous systems, right? Like from a nerve Anna Casey: Yeah, yeah. Rachel: from a somatic perspective, Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: the relational injury of not belonging is like catastrophic. And it a it actually feels Anna Casey: Wow. Yeah. Rachel: to their body as if like real like that's danger to their nervous system. Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: and so I think this is not necessarily exactly what you asked, but in it made me think of like that that's a really big piece of disordered eating for teens is like all You know, all my friends are restricted to not eating before homecoming. And like, that's really Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: enticing to do that because I have to belong to this tribe. And if I don't belong to this tribe, then like something bad could happen, right? So the somatic kind of bottom bottom-up Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: approach and working with disordered eating and working with eating disorders. Yeah, it really is like looking at those needs, those core needs. Like how is this behavior meeting an important need? What function is it serving? Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: A lot of times disordered eating can also kind of function in that way of like numbing, emotional numbing. Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: so if I'm restricting my intake, I'm almost always restricting other things. I'm restricting my authenticity, I'm restricting my ability to feel. Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: it's not safe to feel emotions, so I I've learned to stuff them down, like restricting my food drowns out the noise on all of it, right? so I can't tell you how many teens I've seen over the years who are in recovery for a restrictive eating disorder and they also check the box of a highly sensitive kid and they check the box of high anxiety, right? because no one has ever taught them how to feel their feelings safely. And so Anna Casey: Hm, wow. Rachel: they turn to that Disordered eating behavior is a way to like, this is great. I don't have to feel that. Like, Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: awesome. This works, right? There's a secondary gain there. Anna Casey: Yeah, sure, yeah. Rachel: yeah. So that that more somatic kind of bottom-up approach is really looking at like that emotion regulation piece. Like, what is the disordered eating behavior doing for you? and then yeah, talking about function. Talking about needs, and then really like hitting that emotion regulation piece. 'cause that's often we could I for the sake of this conversation, I won't deep dive that, but that's almost always I've let's just say this. I have never s treated anybody for disordered eating or an eating disorder that is like, I know how to feel my feelings. I feel very comfortable in feeling my emotions and letting myself feel. Anna Casey: Okay. Rachel: I know exactly how to do that, you know? never Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: once have I heard someone say that. Anna Casey: so say there's a parent listening and they're seeing these signs of man, like my son or daughter is really like I'm I'm feeling those red flags that you mentioned with the excessive exercise or obsessive thoughts around food. What is the next step? What would you recommend? Is it immediately go find a somatic psychotherapist? Is it to have conversations? Is it both? What would you say to that parent listening? Rachel: Yeah. So I would say don't delay getting help. that Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: is the number one thing I see. I see again, well meaning, loving, wonderful Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: parents who say, and I totally get why they think this. They're like, that's just the stuff they're seeing on the internet. Like, that's just this cultural Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: moment, right? Like, how could they not be? based on what they're being exposed to in X, Y, and Z. And I really I caution against just writing it off as like it's just a phase because it's often not a phase. and and if it is a phase, then your therapist will let you know. And congratulations. That's awesome. I'm so happy for you. that that's that that's what you know you're being presented with. You know, like he let let a professional yeah like let a professional Anna Casey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there you go, exactly. Best case scenario. Rachel: tell you that. if that's the case, right? Because because disordered eating And eating disorder behaviors are to the person who is struggling, to the young kid, to the teen, I mean, we're seeing pediatric eating disorders now, starting as young as 10, even younger, right? Eating disorders thrive in secrecy, eating disorder disordered, you know, on the spectrum. they don't want to be called out. And so they get really good at hiding. so if you as a parent are seeing things, Don't del don't delay. Don't delay getting help. And I would say that, look for a therapist who specializes in eating disorders. That's really important. not all therapists, like, I'm gonna be real with you. Like in my grad school training, like there was maybe like a lecture about eating disorders. That's it. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Wow. Okay. Rachel: so it is such a highly specialized specialization that really that's important to see somebody who has that specialization look for someone in their bio that you know, who says that that's that's what they have. They have additional training, they know how to treat that. that feels really important. but that would be my first, my first step. I mean, I think also if you have a trusted relationship with your pediatrician, that can also be a great place to to start. But I've also seen that go both ways, unfortunately. I think pediatricians, Anna Casey: Mm, mm-hmm. Rachel: they also don't get hardly any training in disordered eating and eating disorders. Like none in medical Anna Casey: Okay. Yep. Yep. Rachel: school. and so really well meaning pediatricians might be like it's fine, you know, and we're people in our field are like teens should not be losing weight. Like there should be growing that is a time of rapid brain and body development. And so for me, a teen who's losing weight is a red flag. but I've heard stories of pediatricians writing it off and Anna Casey: Sure. Mm-hmm. Rachel: Because of that they're living in the same culture that we're living in and are, you know, so and then I have, you know, wonderful colleagues and pediatricians who have training and they know what they're doing and they are wonderful and skilled. so I'm not knocking pediatricians, but it's worth asking. Like, I Anna Casey: Sure, absolutely. Yeah. Rachel: encourage parents to ask, their pediatricians, do you have knowledge? Do you have training and treating or working with or knowing about disordered eating? Like that's an important question. Anna Casey: That's good question. Okay. Is there any advice that you would give a parent who maybe is a little apprehensive about their kid seeing a therapist? Rachel: First of all, I would say that makes so much sense, right? Like, Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: yeah. If I'm taking my kid to a provider, I I'm gonna have a little like that's that's your parental instinct, right? Like Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: I would say be with that kindly and compassionately, knowing that, like, of course you're afraid. Of course there's like, no, what if this doesn't help? Or what if this is more serious than we know? Or what if this is nothing? Or don't let that stop you from moving forward. and what I will also tell parents, especially when we're talking about young kids, early adolescents, like preteens, therapy is really collaborative. So like when I'm working with eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen year olds, the their parents are involved. in maybe not in every single session, but it is really important to me, specifically as a therapist, that I have a really strong rapport and relationship with that parent as much as it is Anna Casey: Okay. Rachel: that I have a strong relationship with that kid or that teen. and Anna Casey: Cool. Yeah. Rachel: so I don't know, I almost sometimes think that there's this weird, like assumption that the therapist is gonna shut the parent out and only work with the teen or the kid or that the parent isn't gonna be my greatest work as a therapist, if I don't have a good relationship with the parent, I actually have pretty little influence over the work I'm doing with the kid or the teen most of the time. Right. So Anna Casey: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Rachel: I think, you know, therapy with teens and kids is like really collaborative and I think that that I hope that that's encouraging for parents to hear. Like, you will get to be a part of this. Anna Casey: And ask, right? You can ask whenever you find a therapist, Rachel: Yes. Anna Casey: like what how involved will I be? And like what how yeah, what's my role gonna be? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rachel: Yes. Yeah. Absolutely, right? Because your role is like you're responsible for the food you bring in your home and feeding your children. All those things. So that it's really highly collaborative. Anna Casey: That's really cool. Rachel: but I will say, what one like final, I don't know, closing word, final thought. Anna Casey: Yeah, please. Rachel: is just so much of this work of like disordered eating, body image recovery, how do we help kids like not hate themselves? like Anna Casey: Ha ha. Rachel: is like so much rooted in us being able to like bravely look at our own pain as parents and like turn Anna Casey: Mm. Yeah, definitely. Rachel: towards the stories that maybe we've buried or that maybe feel really scary to look at That is brave and hard work. Like I think sometimes people Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: think like this work of like body compassion and body respect and like having a more kind and compassionate relationship with your body, like that matters so much. And I want that for ever like I and I mean that. Like at the c in my core, it's like I want that for every human walking this planet to know how innately worthy and like deserving of respect and nourishment and care. Like every single one of us deserves that. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: But also just naming the complexities of this work. Like body image Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: is not, I think sometimes it's paraded on the internet, is just like love yourself. And I'm like, y'all, body Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: image work is body image work is trauma work. Like often it is deep work. It's not just about Anna Casey: Wow. Mm-hmm. Rachel: because body image is so much more than even just what I look at when I s look in the mirror. Like Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: It's about how I think, how I feel, how I perceive the sensations, like the stories that I've lived, Anna Casey: Mm. Rachel: what's happened to my body. I mean, there this stuff is like It's real, you know? And so Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: I think I often just like to name that. Like I think people can have this perception that body image work is like fluffy. And I'm like, Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: there's nothing like this stuff is gritty. Like this stuff requires like deep dives and and I hope people will like accept the invitation, right? Like Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Rachel: I hope that like we get to pass on. freedom to our kids because Anna Casey: Yeah. Rachel: it is their birthright, right? And we're gonna do it imperfectly. We don't have to be perfect, right? But but we can give them the gift of stewarding their bodies well and knowing that their worth is inherent. And I think that's important. Anna Casey: Mm. Mm. That's so good. Rachel, thank you so much. Rachel: Thanks for having me. Anna Casey: Yeah, this this was a really, really special conversation. And I feel like we probably need to have a part two at some point. Because every single time I ask you a question, Rachel: Let's do it. Let's do it. Anna Casey: we're like, that could be a whole episode. But Thank you so much, Rachel, for all of your work in this space. for the years that you have put into this work and the countless clients that you continue to see every day. and more than that, thank you for your compassion in this I feel your heart in this conversation and I know that your clients do too. It is really, really special and really tangible. So thank you so, so much, Rachel. Rachel: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.