Latest / We Mean Business / New Rules of Business: Leadership, Brand & Building What Lasts | Betsey Locke on We Mean Business

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New Rules of Business: Leadership, Brand & Building What Lasts | Betsey Locke on We Mean Business · We Mean Business

• 0:00
  I never even wanted to talk about my children because I was afraid I wouldn't look serious. And I distinctly remember I was in a conference room. It was all
• 0:06
  men. I was breastfeeding and I leaked through my suit and I was presenting. I looked down. I was like, "Okay, what am I going to do?" And I looked up and I
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  said, "Gentlemen, the perils of breastfeeding. I'm now a leader. I have to help normalize." This is We Mean Business, a field guide
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  for builders, believers, and bold operators. I'm your host, Monica Richards, and together we go beyond the headlines to sit down with the leaders
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  behind the businesses, ideas, and movements shaping our world. Each conversation uncovers their principles, hard one lessons, and defining moments,
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  bringing you greater clarity, confidence, and conviction as you build what's next. Pull up a seat as we explore staying grounded as a woman in a
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  powerful leadership position, modern approaches to managing teams, and expert strategies for building a strong brand foundation. All while showing up fully
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  as a mother and wife.
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  We Mean Business is presented by The Next Rodeo, the agency with bold ideas for ambitious brands. Get noticed, get remembered, get results. Welcome to your
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  next rodeo. Let's ride.
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  Betsy Lock, welcome to We Mean Business.
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  Thank you. You are the most aligned guest for We Mean Business because it's
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  brought to you by the Next Rodeo and you are president of the Next Rodeo.
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  That's true. So very aligned. We work really closely together on a daily basis through the weekends.
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  That's true. Sometimes evenings and weekends. And by the way, we worked very closely together on this the whole conceptualizing of this podcast.
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  We did. Yeah. And so what does this podcast mean to you?
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  So, um, it's really important to me because we, you know, and you and I were very closely aligned on this. We talked about, um, what conversations we wanted
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  to have and we, this podcast is really about business. It's not, you know, an agency typically focuses on marketing and creative, but we really wanted to
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  talk about business. There's so much going on. It's dizzying as we look at each other every day. Um, it's crazy. There's so much that's new. There's so
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  much to talk about. Um, and so we decided we really want to focus on stories of builders, people who are building communities, careers,
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  companies. Um, and talk about those stories.
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  Yeah. And two, it's it's for the builders, the believers, and the bold operators, right? And this is really the space that I'm sure you feel the same
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  way. We wish we had while we started to build, right? So, we're really happy to have you here. So, thank you.
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  Thank you. So with no further ado, Betsy Lockach has spent her career helping some of the world's most recognized financial institutions discover the
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  power of purpose. From shaping global brand strategy from City and Bank of America to leading transformative brand work at MT Bank and Regions Bank, she
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  has built a reputation for turning complex organizations into brands people genuinely connect with. She's now president of the Next Rodeo, as we just
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  shared, a full-ervice creative agency where worldclass experts meet new era tech. Beyond the boardroom though, Betsy's biggest queer highlights may
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  just be her 30 plus year marriage and being the proud mother of three kids now on their own journey to marriage themselves. So with that, let's talk a
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  little bit about the next rodeo. So you've you've been part of the building, speaking of builders, uh from the ground up. So what is it and what gap in the
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  market is it designed to fill?
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  So for my whole career, worldclass creative strategy, execution, production
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  was reserved for the world's biggest companies. Those very large companies with very large budgets who could hire very large agencies often um and that is
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  does not have to be true anymore. So, we are in a new world where there's so much new, there's so much technology, there's so many new tools, um, dare I say the AI
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  word. I know we're going to talk about it and there's what else is there to talk about? Uh, but a lot of technology which allows us to work faster, smarter,
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  better, leaner and actually open the aperture of who we can serve, which is
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  really exciting.
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  Um, and we really wanted to be able to sort of move down to serve businesses.
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  99.9% of businesses in this country are small and they need they need real um support. They marketing support, advertising
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  support, strategy support and they haven't and still don't really have great access to resources, right?
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  So, we want to be that and we're, you know, it's very exciting. It's a new it's a new journey um for all of us in our careers. It's the next rodeo.
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  Yeah. And it's a whole new world, right? the the kind of old age of of being a big business and a big institution with not a lot of tech like that. It seems
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  almost like a completely different it was so long. It feels so long ago.
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  I know like two weeks ago, right?
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  So it feels like a totally different world.
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  Every day uh changes every day. Every day you open your LinkedIn and there's new tools, new information. Um so we are trying to lean into that.
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  Yeah. And I I I dare we say we're doing a pretty good job.
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  So we mean business sits inside the next rodeo but it's not a traditional agency podcast right this is focused on how businesses actually get built. So why
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  was it important to create a platform that lives at the intersection of creativity strategy and real world execution?
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  I mean there's lots of podcasts about marketing about advertising about creativity. There's some really good ones. Um, of course there's there's
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  podcasts about business, but we were really interested in this whole um this
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  whole notion of business. We've we've moved into this um you know this builder phase. We you know let's talk about women for a minute. Yes.
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  So during COVID two and a half million women left the workforce only 1.8
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  million men and they guess what they did they built businesses they bought franchises. They
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  started sle proprietorships. um they um you know so the conversation's moved from like the last generation was like we were looking to
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  earn our way into the boardroom. Now women are just like I'm just going to buy the whole building you know they're just like buying the building. Um and
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  I'm I'm in a WhatsApp group with 600 women who are all leaning in and helping each other networking helping them buy businesses. So um we're just really
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  interested in that and we want to empower and enable that that builder. um very ambitious builder because we can now we can we can lean in
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  and help them. We can use ideas. We can use all the things all the skills that we've developed over our careers. Um those of us in the in in the experienced
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  class as we prefer as well as our young creative technologists um you know collectively we can support and enable um smaller businesses and so you know
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  that is a really exciting opportunity.
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  Yeah. And yet what is the stat? I think it's less than 2% of VC funding goes to
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  female founded businesses. So, we'll get into that in a little bit, too. Yeah.
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  So, let's take it back to day one. What was your first job?
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  So, I came to New York um to go into advertising because of an article I read
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  in Cosmo.
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  In Cosmo my senior year in college. I mean, in those days, we didn't like my kids had internships like summers before. I didn't really do that. I was like, "Oh,
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  I guess I need to get a job." And I had read this article and it was all about advertising and it had little descriptions of the various roles in
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  advertising. And there was a picture of this woman. I still remember this woman who was wearing a great yellow suit and she was hailing a cab. And I was like,
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  maybe I could do that. And so I came to New York and um I um from California, came to New York, saved up money over the summer, um
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  and got a job at McCann Erickson and I was a secretary. And so I was like, "Oh,
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  I don't want to be a secretary." I wanted to be an account person. So I asked the person I was a secretary for if I could become an account person and
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  they said, "Well, you need to have a job open up and you need to have somebody be willing to take you on." And so I went around to the account people
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  and asked them if they would take me on. And one of them said yes. So I became an account person at McCann Erickson.
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  And then I stayed there for a little while and then I moved to another agency, and that's sort of how I got started in advertising.
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  So what was that like being in New York in advertising at that time, especially as a woman?
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  It was interesting. I mean, it was a very male-dominated industry. There were not a lot of women in senior roles. And I remember feeling like I had to
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  prove myself all the time. I had to work harder. I had to be tougher. I had to kind of fit into the culture that existed at the time.
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  And I think that was probably true in a lot of industries. It was just the way things were. And I didn't really think much about it at the time.
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  I just thought, "Okay, this is what I have to do if I want to be successful." And so I did it. I worked hard. I learned a lot. And eventually I started
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  moving up and taking on more responsibility.
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  And when did you realize that you could actually bring your own perspective into leadership?
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  I think it took me a long time. When you're young, you're looking around at the people who are successful and you're trying to emulate them. And most
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  of the people I saw were men. So I thought I needed to behave like them. I thought I needed to be really tough and really direct and not show too much
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  emotion. And over time I realized that wasn't really me, and it wasn't necessarily the best way for me to lead.
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  I started to understand that the things that I thought were weaknesses could actually be strengths. Being empathetic, listening to people, caring about
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  people. Those things could make me a better leader rather than something I needed to hide.
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  And I think that was a big shift for me. It took years to really understand that.
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  You spent a lot of your career in financial services, which can be a pretty complex and traditional environment. What did you learn there about
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  building a brand that people actually trust?
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  I learned that trust is really about consistency and about doing what you say you're going to do. And in financial services, that's particularly important because
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  you're dealing with people's money and their futures. So the brand can't just be a beautiful advertising campaign. It has to be reflected in the actual
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  experience that customers have with the company.
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  You can have the best creative in the world, but if somebody walks into a branch or calls customer service and has a terrible experience, that's what they're
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  going to remember. So the brand has to be built from the inside out.
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  And that's one of the things I really loved about working in financial services. There was an opportunity to connect the brand strategy with the actual business
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  strategy.
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  So when you're working with a big institution, how do you get people to actually believe in a new brand direction?
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  You have to involve people. You can't just come in and say, "Here's the new brand." You have to help people understand why you're doing it and what it
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  means for them. And you have to listen to them, too, because they know things that you don't know.
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  So a lot of the work is really about bringing people along. It's change management as much as it is brand strategy.
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  And that's something that I learned over and over again throughout my career.
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  You have also worked through a lot of change in the industry. How do you personally handle uncertainty?
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  I think you have to accept that uncertainty is part of the job. You don't always have all the answers. You have to be willing to make a decision with
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  the information you have and then adjust as you learn more.
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  And I think that's particularly true now. Things are changing so quickly. Technology is changing. Consumer behavior is changing. The economy is changing.
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  So you can't wait until everything is clear. You have to move.
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  You mentioned technology and AI earlier. How are you thinking about AI in the creative and branding world?
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  I think it's an enormous opportunity. I don't think it's something to be afraid of. It's a tool, and like any tool, it depends on how you use it.
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  It can help us work faster and explore more ideas. It can help smaller businesses access capabilities that they couldn't afford before.
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  But I don't think it replaces human creativity or judgment. Those things are still incredibly important.
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  And I think the people who learn how to use these tools effectively are going to have a real advantage.
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  So how do you balance using new technology with keeping the human side of the business?
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  You have to be intentional about it. Technology can make things faster, but faster isn't always better. You have to ask what you're trying to accomplish
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  and whether the technology is actually helping.
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  And you can't lose the human connection. That's what brands are built on. People want to feel understood. They want to feel like there's a person
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  behind the business.
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  You've also talked about women building businesses. What do you think is different about this moment?
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  I think women have more permission than they used to to build things for themselves. And technology has lowered some of the barriers.
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  You don't necessarily need a huge team or a huge office or a huge budget to get started anymore.
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  And I think there's also a growing community of women who are willing to help each other, which is really powerful.
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  We don't have to do it alone.
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  What advice would you give a woman who is thinking about buying or building a business for the first time?
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  I would say learn as much as you can, but don't wait until you know everything. There is no moment when you're going to feel completely ready.
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  Find people who have done it before. Ask questions. Build a network. And then take the next step.
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  You can learn a lot by doing.
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  You've had a long career and you've also raised a family. How did you navigate those two parts of your life?
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  It was not always easy. There were times when I felt like I wasn't doing either one as well as I wanted to.
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  But I think I eventually realized that there wasn't going to be a perfect balance. It was more about making choices and being present for the things
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  that mattered most.
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  And I also learned that you can't do everything yourself. You need help. You need people around you who understand what you're trying to do.
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  And you need to be willing to ask for that help.
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  Did you ever feel pressure that you had to choose between being a good mother and being successful professionally?
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  Absolutely. I think a lot of women feel that. And sometimes that pressure comes from other people, but sometimes it comes from yourself.
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  I had to learn that being ambitious didn't mean I didn't care about my family. And being a mother didn't mean I wasn't serious about my career.
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  Those things could coexist.
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  And I think that's one of the things I wish I'd understood earlier.
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  When you were at the height of your career, what helped you stay grounded?
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  My family. My friends. People who knew me before I had a title. Those relationships are really important because they remind you who you are.
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  And I think having interests outside of work helps too. You need things that have nothing to do with your job.
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  It gives you perspective.
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  How important is it for leaders to show vulnerability?
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  I think it's very important. People don't expect leaders to have every answer. They want to know that you're human.
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  And when you can say, "I don't know," or "I'm worried about this," it can actually create more trust.
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  The key is not to make other people responsible for your emotions. You can be vulnerable and still be a leader.
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  That's something I learned over time.
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  What do you think makes someone a really good leader?
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  I think it's someone who makes the people around them better. Someone who creates an environment where people can do their best work.
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  It's not about being the smartest person in the room. It's about creating the conditions for other people to succeed.
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  And I think that's a responsibility.
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  You have led through some pretty significant moments of change. How do you keep a team motivated when things are difficult?
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  You have to be honest with people. You have to tell them what you know and what you don't know. And you have to give them something to believe in.
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  People can handle difficult circumstances if they understand why they're doing the work.
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  And you have to recognize people. You have to celebrate the wins, even the small ones.
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  Especially when you're going through a difficult period.
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  How do you think about failure?
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  Failure is part of the process. You're going to make mistakes. You're going to make decisions that don't work.
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  The question is what you do next. Do you learn from it? Do you adjust? Do you keep going?
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  I think resilience is one of the most important qualities a leader can have.
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  And sometimes you just have to keep moving.
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  Was there a particular failure that taught you a big lesson?
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  There were plenty. I don't know that there's one that stands out more than the others. But every time something didn't work, I learned something.
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  Sometimes I learned something about the business. Sometimes I learned something about myself.
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  And sometimes I learned that I needed to listen more carefully.
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  What role does curiosity play in your leadership?
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  A huge role. I think you have to stay curious. You have to keep asking questions.
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  The minute you think you know everything, you're in trouble.
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  And that's especially true right now because everything is changing.
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  How do you stay curious when you're busy?
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  I read. I talk to people. I pay attention to what's happening outside my industry.
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  And I try to surround myself with people who know things I don't know.
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  That's probably one of the best ways to keep learning.
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  You mentioned the importance of people who know things you don't. How do you build a strong team?
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  Hire people who are good at things you're not good at. It sounds obvious, but it's really important.
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  And don't hire people who are just going to agree with you. You need people who will challenge you.
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  The best teams have different perspectives.
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  What do you do when someone on your team disagrees with you?
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  I want them to tell me. I would much rather have someone disagree with me in a meeting than agree with me and then complain afterward.
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  You need psychological safety. People need to know they can speak honestly.
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  And ultimately the leader makes the decision, but that doesn't mean the leader has to have all the ideas.
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  That's an important distinction.
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  How do you create that kind of culture?
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  You model it. If you ask for honesty and then punish people when they give you an honest answer, you're not going to get honesty.
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  So you have to be willing to hear things that you don't want to hear.
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  And you have to thank people for telling you.
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  What about when the stakes are really high?
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  That's when it's even more important. When the stakes are high, people sometimes become afraid to speak up.
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  You need to make sure that doesn't happen.
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  Let's talk about branding. What's one mistake you see businesses make when they're trying to build a brand?
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  They focus too much on what they want to say and not enough on what their customers need to hear.
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  A brand isn't about you. It's about the relationship you have with your customer.
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  So you need to understand your audience deeply.
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  And you need to be clear about what makes you different.
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  How important is consistency?
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  Very important. But consistency doesn't mean everything has to look exactly the same.
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  It means the underlying idea is consistent. The promise you're making is consistent.
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  The experience should match the promise.
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  That's how you build trust over time.
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  What makes a brand memorable?
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  Emotion. People remember how you make them feel.
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  That's why storytelling matters.
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  And that's why creativity matters.
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  You can't just give people information and expect them to care.
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  You have to give them a reason to care.
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  What about smaller businesses that don't have big marketing budgets?
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  They don't need to try to look like a giant corporation. They need to figure out what they can own.
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  Sometimes being smaller is an advantage because you can move faster.
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  You can know your customers better. You can be more personal.
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  And technology gives small businesses access to tools that used to be available only to much bigger companies.
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  That's a really exciting shift.
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  How should a small business think about where to spend its limited resources?
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  Focus. Don't try to do everything.
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  Figure out the one or two things that are going to make the biggest difference and do those really well.
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  And then build from there.
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  What do you think is the biggest opportunity for businesses right now?
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  I think the ability to reach people directly. There are so many tools now for businesses to communicate with their customers.
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  But that also means there's more noise.
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  So the businesses that are clear and authentic have an opportunity to stand out.
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  Let's talk about your own leadership evolution. What changed most for you?
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  I became more comfortable being myself.
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  Earlier in my career I thought leadership was about projecting confidence all the time.
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  Now I think leadership is more about creating confidence in other people.
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  That's a very different thing.
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  And I think it's much more sustainable.
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  What do you think young leaders get wrong?
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  They sometimes think they need to have the answer immediately.
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  It's okay to say, "I don't know. Let me think about it."
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  And it's okay to ask for help.
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  You don't have to prove that you can do everything alone.
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  What do you wish you had known when you were starting out?
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  That careers are long.
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  You don't have to get everything done at 30.
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  You have time to learn and change and reinvent yourself.
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  And that's actually one of the most exciting things about a career.
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  You can have more than one chapter.
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  You've had several chapters. How did you know when it was time to make a change?
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  Sometimes you just know. Sometimes you feel like you've learned everything you're going to learn in a particular role.
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  And sometimes an opportunity comes along that you can't ignore.
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  The important thing is to pay attention.
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  Don't be so focused on the plan that you miss what's happening around you.
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  What keeps you excited about work now?
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  Building. I like building things.
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  I like being around people who are excited about building things.
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  And I like learning.
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  That's what keeps me going.
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  You've described yourself as a builder. What does that mean to you?
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  It means taking something that doesn't exist and making it exist.
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  It means solving problems. It means bringing people together.
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  And it means having the patience to keep working when things aren't perfect.
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  Because they're never perfect.
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  What gives you the confidence to keep building when you don't know exactly where it's going?
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  I think you have to believe in the possibility.
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  You don't need to know exactly what the final picture looks like.
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  You just need to believe that it's worth pursuing.
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  And then you take the next step.
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  How important is patience?
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  Very. Building anything meaningful takes time.
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  But patience doesn't mean standing still.
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  You can be patient about the outcome while moving quickly on the work.
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  That's an important distinction.
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  What about ambition? Has your relationship with ambition changed?
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  Yes. I used to think ambition meant getting somewhere.
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  Now I think ambition can also mean creating something that matters.
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  It's less about the title and more about the impact.
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  And I think that's a healthier way to think about it.
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  How do you define success today?
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  Having people around me that I love and respect.
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  Doing work that I'm proud of.
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  And being able to look back and feel like I treated people well.
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  Those things matter more to me now.
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  Do you think success changes as you get older?
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  Absolutely. Your priorities change.
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  You understand that time is finite.
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  And that changes what you want to spend it on.
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  What do you want to spend more time on?
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  People. Family. Friends.
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  And work that feels meaningful.
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  You mentioned earlier the idea of purpose. How important is purpose to building a business?
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  I think it's incredibly important.
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  Purpose gives people a reason to care.
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  But purpose can't just be words on a website.
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  It has to show up in the decisions you make.
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  If your purpose says one thing and your behavior says another, people will notice.
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  So you have to be willing to live it.
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  What happens when the business gets difficult and the purpose is tested?
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  That's when you find out whether it's real.
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  It's easy to talk about values when everything is going well.
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  The hard part is making decisions based on those values when it's uncomfortable.
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  And that's where leadership really matters.
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  Let's talk about boundaries. How do you set boundaries in the middle of pressure and constant decision-making? How do you build
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  something significant without losing yourself and still keeping joy and also you know pushing any sort of like mom guilt that was maybe given to you from
• 40:52
  other people not not Jeff but other people within the space like how do you because I I can I feel that happened probably. So how how did you deal with
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  that and still keep your joy and still have magic in what you're building because you are a builder. Um, you know what? I I have this my
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  favorite saying I think you know, which is it's a journey and a destination. In fact, I used to try and get it into every meeting because there's always a
• 41:14
  reason to say that. And um I used to have some of my my team who would like try and beat me to it in meetings and then I'd get texts from another floor
• 41:22
  like in this meeting so and so just said, you know, it's a journey and a destination. Um but at, you know, in all seriousness that what that says to me is
• 41:30
  that your destination is important. If you're building something, you're building towards something, you're trying to reach a goal,
• 41:37
  you go for that, but the journey on the way is where we live most of our life. And so make sure that the journey is optimized. Make sure that the way you treat people on the way
• 41:47
  to that goal, the fun that you have, the laughs that you have, the humanity that you show
• 41:53
  when someone needs humanity shown when they're in crisis or when they are, you know, they need that.
• 41:58
  That's really, really, really important. We should not forget that. So to me it was about always keeping in mind, yeah, we're, you know, I'm as ambitious as the
• 42:07
  next person towards our goals, but we really have to be seriously thinking
• 42:13
  about what's the journey like when you get there.
• 42:16
  Because that's where we live most of the time.
• 42:18
  Correct. It's really good advice. We're going to get into a little bit of fast field notes.
• 42:23
  So what do you know now about leadership or success that you wish you had understood earlier in your career? Yeah. I mean, I think it's what I talked
• 42:31
  about earlier that I I thought that you needed to be like the guys. I thought that you needed to be like really hardcore and you needed to, you know,
• 42:40
  tell people, you know, you really needed to not, you know, sort of hide your femininity and your soft side, if you will, that sort of nurturing part of you
• 42:46
  because if you wanted to be in business, you needed to be, you know, those were the role models when I
• 42:50
  started out in New York, you know, in early days. And it took me a long time to get, you know, I was a grownup leader when I really came to the realization
• 43:01
  that, you know, being a good boss is is a moral imperative because you impact people's lives, you know, um, and that it's okay to lean into the softer sides
• 43:11
  because it's not just about making sure people function, it's about making sure they flourish.
• 43:15
  Yeah. And I learned that pretty late, I think, and when I did, I embraced it. But I think I felt a lot of tension with myself over the years when I was getting
• 43:24
  to that.
• 43:25
  Mhm. Well, working with you very closely, that is exactly how you operate now, and it is much appreciated. Yeah. Working so closely inside major
• 43:34
  financial institutions. What is one practical lesson you've learned about financial decisionmaking that people outside of that world can really apply
• 43:42
  today? Oh gosh, what do I know about financial decision-making? I I don't know.
• 43:46
  Savings, investments. Well, I guess I would say that it it is the fact that you think that finances are really all about, you know, the rational. They're
• 43:56
  all about making really reasonable rational decisions. The truth is almost to everyone, even you know, even at the sort of commercial side,
• 44:06
  they're very emotional and it's probably a good reason to have a, you know, um to get yourself a financial adviser. I don't want to give that kind of advice
• 44:14
  but you know they say that people who have advisor do better even if they have to pay for it because it keeps you from making really emotional decisions. It's
• 44:21
  the same thing also with the brand by the way. You know there's a lot of sort of sense that financial services brands
• 44:27
  brand really doesn't play. It's really about the numbers. It's really about the rational stuff. Do you have a rate? Do you have you know um these very rational
• 44:36
  things. It's way more than that. And decisions are made even with financial services brands or with your own personal choices very emotionally. I
• 44:43
  mean all decisions are made you know so emotionally and then you sort of postrationalize and it's the same is true.
• 44:50
  So um being aware of that it's good to sort of guard your own decisions around money but I also think about it in terms of you know brands.
• 44:56
  Yeah. Solid advice.
• 44:59
  What is one piece of advice you consistently return to when making those hard decisions? Any hard decision? I I had to think about that. I I
• 45:09
  remember one time, it's hard. You always need advice and and I remember one time getting on the train to go home and writing myself
• 45:17
  getting my notebook out and my pen and writing myself advice.
• 45:21
  And I remember writing 10 things and I don't remember the ones in the middle, but I remember the first and the last. And the very first one was live by the
• 45:30
  golden rule, no exceptions. M that and the last one was never never never never never never give up which is
• 45:38
  attributed to Winston Churchill. He may or may not have said it, but it's attributed to him, right?
• 45:42
  And I remembered those two things and those I think the notion of the golden rule, um,
• 45:48
  you know, the sort of biblical, you know, do unto others and and all that. It it's really good business advice because you do get into
• 45:54
  situations where you're not sure who's for you and against you and uh, you know, whether you you know, you have allies and foes and and what about this
• 46:02
  decision? Are they undermining you? You know, you get into really complicated situations as you do in life in general. you know, business is just a big piece
• 46:07
  of life. And um it's really good to operate based on your values in in life. You know, I
• 46:15
  found that I used to think that you were one person as an executive and when you sit down in front of your computer when you used to go into the office, remember
• 46:21
  that so quaint, right?
• 46:22
  Um you became this persona and you were hardcore and you and you know and then when you turn it off in five you or 10 whenever u you become, you know, your
• 46:30
  real person. It's not true. I learned it's not true. you are the person and the executive that you are in both of those roles and you can't really be
• 46:38
  two different people. It's it just isn't true. Um and so you really um living your values whether you're in a business situation
• 46:49
  or a life situation is really has to anchor you. That was kind of long-winded but that's that was
• 46:55
  advice I gave myself.
• 46:57
  I love that. I'm going to start doing it. Of course it's the first and the last one that you remember because those are always like the punch, right?
• 47:03
  Yeah. Uh so closing, if our community takes only one single
• 47:09
  truth from this conversation here today on how to mean business, what should it
• 47:15
  be? It's the journey and the destination. Never forget that. Go for your goals. Go with gusto. But make sure that on the way you're treating people
• 47:25
  right. You're having fun. and the journey's worth the destination.
• 47:29
  Thank you, Betsy.
• 47:30
  Thank you.
• 47:34
  If you've enjoyed this episode, subscribe and comment below. You can also find us on social at We Mean Business Pod. And if you prefer to
• 47:41
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• 47:44
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• 48:00
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