Latest / The Accounting Leads Now Podcast / The Man Who's Never Lost a Deal in 12 Years (Here's How) | Justin Farmer

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The Man Who's Never Lost a Deal in 12 Years (Here's How) | Justin Farmer · The Accounting Leads Now Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to another episode of the Accounting Leads Now podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: We have an incredible guest joining us today, so without further ado, let's jump into it.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Most firm owners have no idea what their practice is actually worth.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Not a rough idea, not a ballpark, no idea.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: And when the time comes to sell, merge, or hand it off, they find out the hard way.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Justin Fermer has closed 100% of his client engagements with an accepted offer.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Every single one over 12 years.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: He's a licensed attorney and business intermediary who's sat at the table for more deals involving accounting firms than most CPAs will ever see in a lifetime.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: He knows what buyers are really looking for.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: He knows why deals fall apart, and he knows what firm owners do in years before a sale that either makes them rich or leaves money on the table.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is going to be a conversation you'll want to hear whether you're thinking about selling next year or the next decade.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Justin Farmer, welcome to the show.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hey James, thanks for having me.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Happy to be here.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Really looking forward to this one, Justin.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: We had a chance to connect at the infamous Scott's Dazzle about a month ago.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Scott's Dazzle.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: At uh at a gala evening.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: How have things been since leaving Scottsdale and just getting back into the regular uh regular swing of things?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, really good.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is our busy season.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh, I think there's a lot of exciting things happening in the accounting industry with consolidation and you know, technology and a lot of change coming.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of folks needing help and you know, a lot of exciting things happening.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's busy.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's always something, always something new, and and uh, you know, we're right at the forefront.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: So you've been uh you've been doing this for 12 years now.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Walk me back to the beginning.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: What made you decide to uh plant a flag specifically in the accounting firm space?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: How long do we have?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think you said we've only had 25 minutes.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean that's uh 12 years ago.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it I think originally, you know, I'm a I'm a lawyer.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: So originally it was I wanted to run my own business and actually try to buy a personal injury law firm.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And while I was going through that process, I found out that I didn't know what I was doing.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: No one I could reach out to had any idea how to value a business or structure it or finance it or you know, the list was long.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that was kind of the first seed that was planted in my head is like, if I can't figure it out, you know, I'm a smart guy, I've been I'm a lawyer, went to business school, and no one else is able to help me, maybe there are other people out there that could, you know, use this type of service.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the seed that I I planted long, you know, long ago.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I launched actually selling law firms.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: So 12 plus years ago, I was selling law firms, and the business plan was always to move into accounting industry once I kind of cut my teeth and selling deals.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I tell all my clients if I if you can sell a law practice, you can sell anything.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everyone loves lawyers or loves to make fun of lawyers.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, that was that was it.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was moving from you know attorneys, which are pretty hard transactions, you know, if you're just being honest, to working with folks who actually understand numbers and and can, you know, aren't afraid of valuation and things like that.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the the reason was the launch into uh that industry.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I did that again about 10 years ago.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: What surprised you most about transitioning from legal into accounting?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think the I think the surprise was a pleasant surprise, which was um, you know, my clients understood the numbers.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think I I knew that going in, but really when you explain some evaluation technique or ask for you know an ad back or ask for like verification of something within a chart of account, accounting clients can give it to you pretty quickly.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a pleasant surprise.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And not having to fight and wrangle over the financials and looking at the books of my clients, uh accounting clients, and actually analyzing them is much easier because they're typically uh in much better order.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Not all the time, but most of the time.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now there's a lot of accounting firms up for sale now.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like a lot of people are there's a there's an appetite for buying firms over the next handful of years as you know, some firm owners are are aging out, they're looking at retiring, they're looking to sell.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say is you know the the number one or the top two things that a firm owner should be thinking about now, even if they haven't really had that conversation themselves of, yeah, maybe I could sell this thing in the future.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: What what's what are some of the things they should be prepping for?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And or even just like you know, paving that way for right now.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So being in that my background as an attorney, I help people with you know succession planning, estate planning, business planning.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: So always lead with the exit in mind.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So what are your financial?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's a financial goal, James.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's not it's it's as simple as that.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: What is your goal financially?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's like target setting or goal setting.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't know what the end looks like, then you'll never know when you've arrived.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever I'm talking to a client, I always ask them, how much longer do you want to work?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning, I love what I do, I love tax returns, I love whatever it is, I love my people, whatever.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, that's great.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: How much longer do you need to work?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's the financial question.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so how much more money do you need to take from the business?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: How much money do you need to get to your financial goal so that you can effectively walk away and be happy in your second life with, you know, with the financial uh, you know, security that you need.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then once you understand that number and like what that goal is, then you work backwards from there.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: So the timeline adjusts based on that.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so that's really what I do.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some folks are looking at the upside and like the roll-up opportunities as a way to accelerate through growth and to make more money faster, and that can be part of that financial goal.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't know what your financial goals are, you'll never really be able to determine if who you're talking to is the right fit and if the deal is the right fit for you and your family, right?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So so that's it.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's the number one thing.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is it the right financial move for you now?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if your answer is I don't know, then you it's not a good idea to just, you know, go talking to folks because ultimately it won't work.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: What's the number one thing you come across where and like what causes deals to fall through?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you know you come across a lot of individuals who want to sell their firm and maybe it it actually isn't worth that much, and they it was the other end of the spectrum.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: They they thought it's worth a ton, and it's really not worth that much.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what would cause that to happen or a lot of deals to fall through?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so I have the fortunate track record of having very few deals fall through in my career.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you said 100%.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna clarify success rate is every one of my clients has gone under LOI and gotten to the closing table.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Not every deal is closed.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because for like what you just said, there are a handful of clients who get to the closing table and either change their mind, and that's a financial one.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: They realize that as you get closer to the end, wait a minute, maybe this isn't as much as I thought I needed to retire.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: That is the number one reason a deal falls through, is in my experience, is the seller realizes too late that the deal isn't enough for them to actually hit their retirement goals.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or they have a, you know, again, if I won't take a client that has unreasonable expectations, but I can speak from experience.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: People come to me all the time and say, hey, I want 10 bazillion dollars for my practice.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, awesome, I can't help you.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because there's a difference between the need.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: I need 10 bazillion dollars in order to retire versus the market will only pay me one bazillion dollars, yeah, right?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the difference.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have a reasonable expectation, or if you think you paint that you haven't given yourself enough runway, hey, I need this, I need my business to be worth 10 times more than it is.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's a need, that's not reality.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say that's the number one is not understanding it goes back to the financial.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess there's some other things.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm a I'm a fixer, so I've I've I could we could talk for an entire podcast about all the issues I have ironed out um at the closing table, but it's typically, you know, I would call it like seller's remorse.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Something happens and people get emotional and they start to act a little bit irrational when when that when the closing is coming, it can be a very uh impactful, almost like um a loss.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, again, going back to my business plan, since we're being long-winded here, I'll uh you asked the question.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's all good.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I actually you know thought about having like it's a counseling session.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've had I've had clients really mad at me at closing and I didn't know why.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like glaring at me back when deals were closed in person.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember like, were you mad at me?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Yeah, I was mad at you.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because I had so much anxiety, and I and you're the one who's making me feel that way because you're the one who got this deal here, and I've and it was a joke, right?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: We'd start laughing about it, but it's very emotional.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I always prep my clients for you're gonna be upset, you're gonna be nervous, you're gonna and so kind of walking him through, you know, kind of those, you know, it's the whatever degrees of of grief, right?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: The phases of grief.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: People do actually experience that when they sell their business.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I try to prepare them for that.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've never sold, I've never sold a business, but I can understand how I could see those emotions coming up.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you it's like I'm also not a parent, so maybe these analogies are don't make the most sense, but like you're it's your baby that you're you're now selling or you're kind of you're parting with.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's identity too, is exactly right, James.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly now.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Some it's not everyone.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, some people are like, you know, I had a client tell me that they would take uh a gently used vacuum in exchange for the practice.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: They were so burnt out.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: They were like that.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was a true quote.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's a quote from a client, um, which was and I still talk about it today.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: He was so burnt out, he's like, you get me a used vacuum and I'll take that.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like he was gone.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's others who are like, it's their identity, it's they've been doing it forever, it's the sense of self and community and all those things.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so you really have to be prepared for that.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so we always talk about transition planning.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's no, I don't do rip the band-aid transactions.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that doesn't typically work, generally speaking, but it also helps the person who's selling, you know, ease into the next phase of their career, whether that's you know, a de minimis or minimized role within the firm or something else.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: It helps them see the light at the end of the tunnel versus they feel like all of a sudden they're a big part of them's been ripped away.
• 10:16
  unknown: Yeah.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do you help your clients with reverse engineering the the path to selling?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm sure like as you said that it made me think, I don't I don't really know where the where the target is.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where that bullseye is, and it's absolutely impossible to hit if you have no idea where it is.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: I know, like, yeah, all right, let's just let's keep growing this thing, let's let's let's build a team.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I like the lifestyle I have now, want to keep growing it, but I haven't really sat down ever to think, okay, in three, five, or seven years, this is the number and this is the steps for me to take.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something to help your clients out with?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, you know, your business, your legacy, I don't know if you can see that there.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: So when I first started the business, one of the service lines that I thought I was gonna be doing way more of was internal succession or legacy transition planning.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I did succession planning, uh state planning as an attorney, so drafting up a state planning docs, and people often forget to put their business and their state plan because you just don't tie those together sometimes.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of them was like, you know, putting an internal succession within the business.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, hey, who earmark someone help them move into ownership?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yes, so so working backwards from you know some exit goal.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: I still, I mean, I'm I feel like I'm a broken record here.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can chop this third reference out, but it's a financial one, right?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you typically set a financial goal.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And once you get that, hit that goal with your financial planner or yourself, then you know you can do something, divest, bring on a partner, go up and market, sell to employees, whatever it is.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so yeah, I mean, I think that's part of it.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: But at the very beginning, you can always set up your internal documents to allow for a partner to come in.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not a bad idea.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do I let someone buy in?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do I get someone equity?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: How do I get someone either income partnership or actually equity within the business that will help me with my succession?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can handpick someone at you know to join your firm James and and get into the business and say, hey, if you're gonna be a partner, a junior partner, you you get 10% equity in 10 years.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: If I it's call and put, right?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm gonna say I want to sell and you have to buy me out, right?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a mechanism within your actually corporate structure that allows for that exit.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's so that is something that we, you know, again, I did more of before the the run on accounting firms with private equity.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's internal succession planning and within the business.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that is, you know, the bullseye, which is maybe 10 years out.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not a mandatory, but you as the majority owner can say, hey, I'm triggering this clause.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Are you gonna be able to buy me out?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And people say yes or no.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and for those listening who are thinking about acquisition, they're thinking about selling, where where do where would one find you know the market of firms that are that are for sale?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: How does someone start that process?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, there are there are many different listing services out there.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna say many.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's a handful uh that list, you know, the that just have listings up on the website.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I want to reference them here or give them the airtime, but so there are some listing surveys.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: You can Google accounting practices for sale.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um then you have there are more and more and more accounting, I'm putting in bunny ears for those listing.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is bunny ears, accounting brokers out there um who list on their website.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have them on my website as well.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, if you're looking to to buy, I mean, you can you can Google it.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I just gave it a little Google plug there, but you can search for listings for sale.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but again, you know, depending on who you are and what you're looking for, you could also, there are buy-side agents.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: In my firm, we represent buyers or sellers never on the same deal at the same time, uh, no dual rep.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there are other ways, you know, like again, you could look in your local area and say, hey, if I want if you want to buy an accounting firm and you, you know, you you just start looking and networking with other accountants who have grayer, grayer hair than you, say, hey, what's your succession plan?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're in an echo chamber, James.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Anyone who's listening here and who's at these conferences, we all kind of think everyone knows what's going on in the accounting industry.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not true.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: I would say more often than not, I talk to folks who don't, you know, they have a smaller firm, they don't know what's happening, right?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: They've been heads head down grinding away.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: You reach out to that firm owner and say, Hey, I want to buy your practice.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna be like, You're Rika.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's a gift, right?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so there's you can just do that, you know, good old-fashioned, you know, cold call as well.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: How how are you finding your clients?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do people how do people come to you?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Are you are you out pan in the pavement?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Are you are you cold calling?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a team that's cold calling for you?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to know what your client acquisition strategy is as this isn't a green podcast.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, hey, so um I network with people who have podcasts uh more recently.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So let's we'll see how that works.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Great way to great way to get clients.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Great way to get clients.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, I saw I've been doing this for a long time.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I get it, I I would say majority of our clients are referral still, referral from past clients or um, you know, you know, you know, compliance.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Then we do, again, I'm a marketing guy.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we do everything from you know mailers.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: We still do mailers, believe it or not, and just like in the in the mail, um, you know, with funny taglines or whatever to remind people we're there.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: We advertise in trade magazines, and then we do, you know, the outreach, the cold outreach and marketing campaigns, like, you know, to target an audience.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: So um I love referrals, you know, because especially if it's from a client, because then again, that's just one more, you know, it goes both ways, right?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I have had clients refer me clients, and I'm like, I take every every client referral, I'll take the call.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say some of my clients that I've received from those clients have not been ideal.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I will take every referral, you know.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's who I am.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, again, if they're not the right fit for me, you know, I'll let them know.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, that's pretty much is word of mouth.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: I've been doing this for 12 years now, so it's quite a few people out there hopefully saying I did a good job.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Outside of referrals, it's referrals are very tough to scale.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: As you mentioned, it's unpredictable what type of lead or referral you're going to get.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it takes a long time of doing really good work and being very intentional, like remind your clients to send over referrals.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Outside of referrals, what has been one of your what's been the best marketing strategy for your firm and and what's been the worst?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, best marketing strategy.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'd see the most consistent is going to trade shows.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever I so attend trade shows and do public speaking, that typically precipitates folks reaching out because they've, you know, seen I'm a real human and you know somewhat articulate and know what I'm talking about.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I think you know, secondarily to that is like you know, um, you know, we do case studies and we send out you know our case studies and and promote those in email campaigns and that sort of thing.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's real, I mean they're real, so they're not made up, you know, fake case studies to you know promote a hypothetical transaction, it's real transactions.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd say those are probably the number one.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, you know, that one that has worked the least.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like what's what's flopped?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: What's the ones that you're like, oh man, yeah, that that one's fake that sucks.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so we we do have we do uh pay so uh to have lead gen, you know, I mean lead gen, you have to have lead you know gen companies help you, right?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't have a salesperson on uh just constantly making phone calls and doing outreach for me.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, I I so I've been using lead gen companies forever, like for years, like five to six years, I don't know, forever.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: I had one who remained nameless, just get up and they were just getting up and going, and and for whatever reason we used them.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a Ponzi scheme.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: He even admitted.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: He basically said, I charged you and then used what you charge I charged you to, you know, like he basically sent me an email and he's like, I can't pay you back because I used the money you paid me to pay other people.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, not my problem.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like I'm a lawyer.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, just give me my money back because they didn't do anything, right?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: They promised a certain amount of deliverables and every single metric they promised they didn't hit a single one.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was like it was blatant.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was I was like kind ish to him, and then I was firm.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, hey, you admitted to briefs, and I I feel sorry for you, and you want me to let you keep my money but give it back.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then I hired another Legion and they've been great.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, so that was it.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I mean I'm not afraid to spend money on marketing.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I did do I did sponsor a conference, I will not name the conference, and I did not get much out of it.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so again, I sponsor conferences, I go to conferences when I speak, I typically get things in return, but just throwing your logo up somewhere, you know, doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna get return on that investment, at least in my experience.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I that's interesting.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: That that's wild.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that first story saying the guy like emailed you back of yeah, look, I paid other people and it didn't work.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, yeah, that's not really that's not a you problem.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what I said.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I said, not my problem.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like you breached the contract, so either pay me my money back or it was crazy.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel bad for that.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: I feel bad, but it was, I mean, I don't like again going back to customer service and delivery of service.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: I've been doing this then.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: I expect a high level of service.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: I give a high level of service.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: So again, if you're not gonna give me the service, don't lie about it.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and and again, that's that's it.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's how business works.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: You deliver on your promises, don't, don't, you know, overpromise, under deliver.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's tricky when I mean there's put a finger down if you've been burned by marketing before.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure everyone listening has been there.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it makes it tough and something new does come around.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And when you want to try something, because like those scars don't go away quick.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone works really hard for their money, so it is tricky to be willing to reinvest again, but it sounds like you have done that and it's paying off, which is awesome to hear.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't take that as all right, that was the one time it didn't work.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, all marketing is brutal and it doesn't work.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you you kept trying and pushing through.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is there is the company you're working with now, they can remain nameless.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Are they kind of one channel for you?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Are they doing a handful of different things?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the company we're working with now, they do lead gen.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they actually the ones who created our more recent case studies, and they're like great.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like whoever's on the creative team, it they they just look great, right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: We had like very simple case studies, and now these ones are much look way better.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so that I mean that's I mean for me, like lead gen taking a lead and turning into a client is like I'm I'm a long game guy.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I've been doing this for a long time.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll talk to a lot of people who are like, hey, I'm thinking about selling in five to ten years.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, great.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because goal, goal, goal.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's like, you know, so I can I can take a lead and either turn them into a client or prospect pretty quickly.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's what this company's doing.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: I just I don't need them selling for me.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: I just need them getting people that want to talk about their succession.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that's you know, that's a you know, as I've grown in my own career, you know, I used to think I want a salesperson, but my clients don't want to be sold.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: They want to have a conversation, right?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's different.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like someone who's trying to sell, like on sign, sign up, sign up, sign up.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean I'm gonna get a good client.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, like you have to be ready for the transaction, which takes more conversations with me to kind of determine if they're they're even ready.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think that's such an important piece you touched on of you're it sounds like you're you're looking for the The opportunity, the interest from someone, and from there you'll take it, you'll nurture it.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: What would you tell, you know, the listeners when it comes to even vetting or finding a marketing slash lead gen or growth partner for their firm?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: What have you looked for in the company that is working really well now?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: What's your expectation?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, obviously you're running with and converting, which I think a lot of people misunderstand.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: They think a lead is credit card, it's in Stripe, they just have to hit submit.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas here's the intent.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: This person wants to talk to you about the thing, widget, service you sell.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: You have to sell.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, hey Justin, I'm a credit card ready.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: I saw your ad.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: I saw your message.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just hit submit and charge my card?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a lead.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's um, I think it's a partnership, right?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I with long before this, I was a I managed salespeople in a different life.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's it's a partnership.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: When you're working with a salesperson or you're managing a team, you have to tell them what the goals are.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Goes back to goals.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk to this type of client with this type of business at this type of revenue in this industry.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the more detail you provide, the better your lead gen company can perform.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: If I had just said, I want to talk to any accountant in the United States, I would get a ton of bad leads.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: A ton, but I'm very specific.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Geography, size, type, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's not a perfect science.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: I do get folks who aren't ready and they're five to ten years out, but you know, those are leads for the future.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, conversion, you know, people's plans change all the time.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's considering making your lead, it's don't be I'm like that first story maybe sound combative.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: I gave we gave them all sorts of time.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: They had a right to cure, like we gave them more time.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, fine, it's fine.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: You said you want to you know go three more months to try and catch up.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Fine, fine, fine.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like whatever, like end of three months, still the same result, right?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, you know, so it's just like fine-tuning it and giving, you know, it they're part of the team.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: You have to treat them like part of the team and give them what they need to actually understand what you're selling and what you're looking for.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so yeah, I mean, that's what that's our biggest thing is you know, I consider them they're my outsourced, you know, team member.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wicked.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Very cool.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, Justin, as we get ready to wrap things up, you've shared so much knowledge already around what you do, what to look for, how to get ready to sell your firm.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: What is the actional piece of advice when this episode is done playing for the listener?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: It ends, they don't go into a new episode of something else, their favorite sound doesn't come on.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: What should they walk away from in this episode and take action on immediately that will better either their individual life or better their business?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's a that's a wish you just sent that.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: You should have sent that to me ahead of time for the closing, James.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: But here's what I'd say it's like yeah, as the owner of the business, it's your journey.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's individual and don't have FOMO to use a term from being a dad.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Don't have fear of missing out, right?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not the right time for you, that's okay.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So leave this podcast thinking, okay, I want to figure out what my goals are.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I talked to a lot of people at Scott's Dazzle who didn't know what their goals were, but people are talking to them and they're thinking, maybe I need to sell.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, are you ready?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Then you're not ready.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's the answer.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to not be ready to sell your business, right?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: I coming from a sales side majority guy that doesn't sound self-serving, it's not.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not ready, you got to figure out when and how to become ready.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is planning for your exit, figuring out the value of your firm so you can actually figure out what it'll be worth.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we can help with that.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, like if you don't know it's worth, be conservative, you know, plan conservatively, and then set a goal.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And once you set your goal, now you have a timeline and you can and you can aim towards that bullseye that we talked about earlier.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I would say.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, don't feel FOMO and sell when you're ready and you're ready when the financial goals align.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I gotta go back on what I said.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: That was gonna be the last question, but you you some stuff there it shook my head around.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: I really need to ask.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: What do you say to the person who's like, my firm will never be big enough to sell it?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Who who's gonna who's gonna buy this?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's they may feel in their head it's small, maybe it is actually a little bit small.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is there an appetite for those firms in the market?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's staying pretty vague.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't shared any numbers or head count, but I'm just curious because I know like I I've come across, I've thought about that a lot in the past as well.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I hear of other people selling marketing companies, and I'm like, but there's it seems like there's always someone who wants to buy something.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just curious from your perspective.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: I I believe that it's specifically talking about accounting, every accounting business can be sold.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's like in my professional opinion, if the seller is reasonable, it goes back to the number.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, your one person shop,$500,000 revenue, give or take, can be sold, but is someone to give you a million in cash for it?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not, right?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: So structurally, it can be sold if you're reasonable every single time.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like again, I don't think there's too small.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's some of the roll-up comp you know, the roll-ups that we're might be you know alluding to will not look at a certain size.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: But that again, go be FOMO.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's other people out there, there's owner-operator, there's an accountant down the street, there's a friend, there's a another firm locally that would take your business.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's many, many options outside of what everyone seems to be focusing on right now.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so don't feel like, oh, I can't do anything with my business.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's not true.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, interesting.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't don't let the it doesn't need to be a hundred million or four hundred million dollar exit.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't have to be the the entry level.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Very cool.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, it you know, it really the size doesn't matter.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's about it's about you and your and your goals and in your succession plan.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: You can find someone who wants to take over your business or a firm that wants to take over your clients.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Very cool.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Justin, thank you so much for coming by.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: I will wrap it up with this final question for you.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: What's the best piece of advice you've ever received personally or professionally, that we'll we'll tie a bow on this episode with?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Take time for yourself.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a I had a business coach say, if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of your business and your family.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: So make an appointment with yourself every day and keep it.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if it's exercise or lunch or coffee, whatever it is, just like you wouldn't cancel on your client, don't cancel on yourself.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: That was pretty impactful, impactful for me.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I I have it on my calendar personal time every day, and then you can't schedule on it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you wouldn't cancel on your client, you wouldn't, you're not gonna cancel on yourself.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Custin, thank you so much for coming by.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: This has been an awesome episode.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: I hope the listeners got a ton of value from it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how can people find you?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: How can they get in touch if they want to continue the conversation or potentially even work with you down the road or or now?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, James, I really appreciate it.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's been great.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can visit my website, privatepracticransitions.com.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Phone number is two five three five oh nine nine two two four.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: You can reach me on all the socials that my marketing manager manages for me.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're all there.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if you really want to get a hold of me, just call or email Justin at privatepracticetransitions.com.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Justin, thank you so much for coming by.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just gonna throw in there real quick for everyone listening.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Justin did something really cool that so many of you are gonna call you out on do not do.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: He made it very easy to get in touch with them, and he's not scared to share his number.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone, if you're running a business, why you make it so hard for people to get in touch with you is beyond me.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Make it easy for your clients and ideal clients to get in touch with you.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, Justin, love the masterclass there of just sharing your phone number.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: So many people don't do that.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Again, Justin, thank you so much for coming by.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: This has been awesome.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: You bet, James.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, everyone, for listening.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's a wrap on another episode of the Accounting Leads Now podcast.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you got something out of today's conversation, do me a favor, hit subscribe so you never miss an episode and leave us a review wherever you're listening.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: It genuinely helps this show grow.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the bigger this community gets, the better the conversations we can bring you.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, here's the part I actually care about most.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you're running a firm and you're still relying on word of mouth to bring in new clients, I want you to hear this.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Referrals aren't a growth strategy.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say that again.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Referrals are not a growth strategy, they're a hope strategy.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: If you're ready to stop hoping and start building a system that brings qualified prospects to you consistently, go to accountingleadsnow.com and book a call with my team.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: We work exclusively with accounting, bookkeeping, and tax firms.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: We'll look at your situation specifically and tell you what we would do if it was our firm on the line for bringing in new clients.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to go deeper on your own first, I wrote a book called Book Solid Digital Marketing Strategies that actually work for accounting firms.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's the digital marketing playbook built specifically for accounting bookkeeping and tax firms.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Link to grab a copy is in the show notes.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you on the next one.