Latest / The High-Performing Technical Leader / Ep. 33- Pre-Sales Leaders Are Being Handed More Hats: Here's How to Wear Them Properly, with Anthony "Tony" Francetic

Transcript

Ep. 33- Pre-Sales Leaders Are Being Handed More Hats: Here's How to Wear Them Properly, with Anthony "Tony" Francetic · The High-Performing Technical Leader

• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, welcome back everybody to the High Performing Technical Leader podcast.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Arvi Karkanji.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: And as a reminder, this podcast is intentionally live and unedited with our guests.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm really, really excited to dig in today.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm joined by Tony Frencetic.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: He's the director of pre-sales support with Thompson Writers.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And Tony, thank you so much for joining me.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you and I met in person in August at one of the events.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we didn't really get a chance to talk in person.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then we connected on LinkedIn and we kind of picked up the conversation from there.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I'm thrilled to be able to have a conversation.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, thank you for continuing to do the podcast.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's yeah, we have a few of these out there where they talk pre-sales or just technical sales in general, and I think it's getting a much better following.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate you for doing that.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I honestly get to have awesome guests like you sharing knowledge and being able to share value, what you've learned, you know, maybe what you failed on because those are all valuable.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously it wouldn't be possible without guests like yourself.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I do appreciate it.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: All good.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, with that being said, I wanted to honestly just kind of jump in right to your story.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, one of the awesome things that you said when you and I were chatting backstage is that you started in pre-sales out of journalism, which is not a usual path.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like there's never really a good path for pre-sales.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: But how did you end up here when with a journalism background?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so and that's the I think everybody says it's a non-traditional approach to pre-sales.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but no, I I went to school for journalism.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to, I wanted to work at the Chicago Tribune.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: That was my kind of my my goal.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, life happened.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: When I was when I was in school, it was just about that time of transition to everything digital.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like hard news in the newsroom and didn't maybe devote as much time into HTML coding and photography as I probably should have to be successful.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so then started working full-time and then went back to school and and my my cyber defense degree needed an internship to graduate.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And Thomson Reuters had what they called a business technology internship, which is really a sexy way of saying a support rep.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I took support calls and and that kind of got me in the door.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's awesome.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you've been with them for the last 14 years, and you've clearly moved from support to training to management to pre-sales.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: How has that how was the move like what was, I should say, the move that changed your career the most and why?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely the move to pre-sales.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and not to say that I really did enjoy the training side of it.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, along with implementing our solutions for customers, I taught on Crucial Conversations, still to this day, one of my favorite classes to be able to teach internally.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but moving into pre-sales, like I never realized the passion I would end up having for it.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been the last eight years of my career that has been focused on just this pre-sales piece.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: So getting into something that kind of harkened back to the questioning, and that's the journalism parallel, really, is you know, how do you how do you read people appropriately?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: How do you ask questions?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: How do you, you know, work under pressure in a deadline?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and those things translated really, really well.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I never anticipated it would.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, that's that's very fair.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, one thing that really stands out to me is that not a ton, I mean, you don't see it at least as often nowadays, too, somebody staying and growing within the company for the past, you know, 10 to 14 years.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the issues I see nowadays is that um, you know, people aren't happy at their current jobs, maybe they're not being treated fairly or they want more opportunity for growth and they don't get it.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Or same thing with comp.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that either the company or leadership that you had in place did that maybe other people should start implementing to be able to retain people?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's funny you say that too, because I've I've recognized that in certain parts of even my company, but the industry specifically, you get this uh this loyalty isn't necessarily as important as it used to be.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I grew up in a small town, my dad worked for GM for 30 years.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like that, it's just like that's kind of ingrained in me.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I've been really lucky that I've had several great leaders that that truly kind of embodied that open door policy.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and I always talk back about the the first manager that I had, his name was Kent Williams.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he was my support uh uh team leader at the time.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, You have I'm I want I want here to do something and help you get into the next stage.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that next stage could be on this team, it could be somewhere else in the company, or it could be somewhere outside of the company, and it doesn't matter.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I've really tried to hold on to that same approach to it is you know, you develop people as a leader.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the goal, that's the job.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and if you do that from an angle of wanting to just maintain and grow your own your own team, your own division, your own company, as opposed to kind of letting them grow and develop in the way that's best for them.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: I I always air to the to the latter.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like you want to make sure that they know you've got their back and you want to help them no matter what that path might be.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, compensation's a piece of it.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it certainly has become more and more prevalent, I think, the more that we see pre-sales coming to the forefront of strategy uh more than just delivery.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that we're facing that right now of like, where where do we tip the scale towards, you know, from a sales organization, does that lean into uh compensating solutions consultants more?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And where does that parallel come with your sales counterparts?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a tough call right now.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is very true.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: A question I have for you is like, if I'm somebody in a company and I want to grow within the company, because at the end of the day, I mean, even for me as an individual, I would assume it's easier for me to grow into a company that I already know the product and know the team, you know, unless I'm in a toxic environment, right?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: But outside of that, do you feel like the move to wanting to grow starts with me making that obvious to the leadership or the team?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think it's more of a leadership thing where, you know, as a leader, like you said, you're supposed to develop people.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Do that, does that start with leadership?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how should I handle that side?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it is probably a bit of both, but but I had a leader that directly told me that you can't assume that your leader is gonna know your career aspirations.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and similarly, right?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and this goes into like a dialogue during your one-on-ones and conversations uh with a manager and a and a frontline contributor.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's how do you give them opportunities and projects that are going to prepare them for whatever that next career step might be, that's on the leader.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: But on the on the individual side, I think it is really important that not only just communicating what it is you want to do, but be proactive.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the most difficult thing is somebody who just kind of waits back and and and waits for something to be given to them to do instead of looking around and saying, gee, well, I know my day is is filled X amount with demos and prep and research.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I have windows of of time there, at least my team does.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's where you have to kind of start to look and and define what what impact can I have outside of just what I'm delivering today.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it does go both ways.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then in terms of like one thing that you did, obviously, even with the company that you're with right now, you didn't start in pre-sales, like you start in support and technical aspect.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: I get this question a ton.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you being a director of pre-sales probably gives this a ton too.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: If I want to get in pre-sales and I'm inside of a company now, what should I do?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: What is easier?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how do I make it known that I still like the job, but you know, this is where I'm trying to go.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: How do I have that conversation?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, first and for whenever somebody comes up to me and says they're interested in my team, which I've been really lucky, we've got a wonderful group of people that are part of my org and we don't have a ton of exits.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a long list of people who want to join the team because they see the team culture, they see what you know what's been developed and where people seem to be happy.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: So expressing that they're interested is step one.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and then it then it's kind of inherent on if is it manager or a director or whatever level of leader that is having that conversation, kind of give the guidance back and say, well, okay, what brings it, what brings you to it?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're running away from a job and and your point was very valid, like I like where I am, but you this is interesting to me.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, have them shadow, spend some time with SCs, get get a real handle on what the job is.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions from a sales organization, like, oh, just doing the demo, this is really easy, versus what actually goes into prep and research and awareness and marketing knowledge and industry insights and competitor details and everything that plays into it, I think is not always well known.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, if you're interested in it, I would suggest definitely communicating with that team.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Try to get a little bit more FaceTime and try to understand really what goes into it to see if you're cut out for it.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's a lot of preparation, there's a lot of work behind the scenes that I think that goes unnoticed and probably unappreciated far too often.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, for sure, especially in pre-sales.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um I feel like no matter what, as a pre-sales person, you're wearing so many hats, and we're gonna get into this in a little bit, but yeah, um, you're you're doing a lot.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, and sometimes you know there might be a misconception of like what the sales really does, and then they get into it, like you said, and you're like, oh, that's not really what I thought it was.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was gonna ask the other side of that question.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's just assume I am in like green sales right now, and in my company, I'm doing great, but I do want to grow into leadership as my next step.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: What do I do for the company to make sure and see that I am the person, like I can handle this and I can grow within the company and lead people?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how how do I go about that?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, those are always challenging opportunities.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And like specifically with my org, like we've got a hierarchy that's pretty well set.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't, like I said, we don't have a lot of exits often, but there's a lot of interest for people to get into leadership.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, first thing I always recommend is is if there's a formal or informal mentorship program, start there.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: You want to be able to try and communicate and listen to someone and and understand how you're gonna help them.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think the biggest challenge leaders always face is that it's not just here's your metrics, here's your goals, did you meet, did you not?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's all the other intangibles.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's the it's the personal relationships, it's the things that happen outside of work.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of becoming the the unofficial counselor for your team.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a lot of that just managing people's expectations and how do you communicate effectively to different types of people.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: I always recommend starting there and and find a way to make not just one person either, but multiple, so you can get different perspectives of how you would communicate things and how do you tell that story, maybe three different ways if you're working with three different people.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is, and and this is the challenge we continue to face.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, my org for solutions consultants specifically, like it is a very unique skill set.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And where is that transferable?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: If the leadership opportunity isn't in pre-sales in your org, where else in the company does that do those skills transfer?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a big part of it is the closest parallel I can find is the product marketing organization, where you're talking about value proposition, you know, training sales potentially.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's some parallels there of like what that industry insight really is as being a solutions consultant, but it's also a declining skill because you lose that connection point with the industry by having those conversations with customers.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the further you're moving away for that, then then you kind of don't have the same pulse that you do as a solutions consultant.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna ask you a difficult question, and then you feel free to play this session however you want to, but I'm gonna put you on the spot.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how do you feel about, and I guess there's no right or wrong answer to this, but how do you feel about like when companies promote top performers?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like just because I'm crushing it in my current role as pre-sales doesn't mean that I'm cut out for leadership.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or how I guess how do you feel about that?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe you can tell us how do you guys evaluate who would be the right person to turn into leadership, assuming you have like two to three individuals, you know, they're all looking for the same thing.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's common in sales, right?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like you see a top sales performer, then they're naturally a manager.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I I disagree that you take top performers and it automatically makes them a manager.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the hardest things that I face, an individual contributor, and being, you know, I like to think I was pretty good as a trainer and what I did.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: I came into pre-sales without exposure to it.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I am a little bit of uh again additionally non-traditional of not having the pre-sales background to step into it and lead it.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but those high performers, like, I think a lot of people are out and they see what is what is right in front of them.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you if you know that these are my tasks, these are what I'm good at, this is what I can do, great.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if you immediately think that's a leader and they take those skills and just want to replicate themselves, that can go awry very fast.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, it's it's those individual motivations, it's the drivers, it's it's understanding how to communicate differently.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and you can't just take that high performance in an individual contributor role and equate it to a manager.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, some organizations have management training tracks where they go into learning that before they're promoted into leadership, certainly encouraged there.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you don't have it at your company, you know, LinkedIn Learning's got a ton of content.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's plenty of things out there to look into.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, and and again, I I really grappled with, we had uh, we just went through a promotion cycle.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: I had somebody retire.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I did get to promote and go through there.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we we ended up having a hundred applicants, both internal and external, for the solution consultant role that was a backfill.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you go through and do that?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, when when it's high expectations for output of a of a pre-sales team, which is typically consistent too, ramp time, you know, the the right personality, how do you mesh with the team?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: That last one to me is the primary thing.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you gonna be able to, like if it's an internal promotion, do you coordinate with your peers?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do you help out?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do you step up and and you know take on opportunities where they where they are, even if it's something that you're not directly being paid for today?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's a good indicator that, hey, leadership might be something you're cut out for if you can take those things on and and move through that process.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if you you know, if you're hiring externally, it's the hardest thing.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: How do you know that's gonna be a culture mesh?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, on paper, somebody looks great, they've got a ton of background, they've got the industry insights, whatever it is that that kind of makes them look promising.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: But then it turns into like, how do I structure my interview process so that not just me, but maybe my leaders and a peer leader that they're gonna partner with, like, how do they perceive that that connection?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, there's a ton of personality that comes in.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's the it's the it's the not on paper stuff, and and it's probably not the best advice uh from an HR perspective because they want the consistency of it, but it's a feel, it's a gut feel of how they're gonna work.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, nobody's perfect either.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the gut feel, and then obviously you have experience, you've seen probably certain personalities before and felt like, okay, this person with this personality hasn't worked out so well in the past, or here's where the team is now.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: So unfortunately, hiring is a very human process and very individually human process because it depends on the team and the person hiring to.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I was gonna say, I'm so glad you said that about top performers because in my experience, when I've seen top performers get promoted and they don't necessarily either have any sort of management experience or leadership experience before, or maybe they've never thought about it, but now they're put into this position.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like most top performers try to create clones of themselves in the management style because they don't know any better.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, I think leadership is more like how do we make this person, you know, excel within his personality and then this person with his or her personality versus like creating clones of yourself because that's not realistic.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I've always ascribed to the strengths finder mindset too, and everybody's gonna have those individual strengths that make them good at what they do, and an individual performer that is a high performer, well, there's a way to say, like, how do I, how do I share or or replicate maybe those strengths that I have as that high performer, and how can I influence the team in those areas?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, great, but if they're if your strength is their weakness, it's so much harder to take a weakness to a strength than it is to improve on a strength.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where that you know connection individually and understanding what makes each person good at what they do in different ways is is so important from a leadership angle.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, very true.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: All right, I wanted to shift focus a little bit on, like we just mentioned earlier, the multiple hats that we're wearing in pre-sales and especially the last probably two to three years has changed a lot.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, one thing that you mentioned to me when we were chatting offline was that three years ago your organization changed and you're now managing SDRs alongside Solution Consultant.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: First, I want to know your honest first reaction, and then maybe something that surprised you the most once you were in it.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh confusion was absolutely the first one because you don't connect SDRs to pre-sale like to solution consultants.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's two different worlds.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you can say it's pre-sales and you can put it under that umbrella, but it's it's prospecting versus technical validation, right?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's such a difference there.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and one of the things that I tried to look at it from my perspective, and again, join the the team.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've got two teams in Mexico City, one in the US, and and you know, travel to Mexico City, spend some time with them, figure out the motivations there too in much the same way.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, the the mantra that I've had for my pre-sales team for the longest time is how can I help?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's got three legs to that stool.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's how do I help my peers?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: So peer solution consultants, in this case, peer SDRs, how do I help my sales counterparts, which they're going to be partnered up in a very similar way, they rely on pretty heavily, whether that's an SDR or a solutions consultant.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then how do I help my customer?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And those three things is kind of like the core of it.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: When I stepped in, I said, Well, I think just at face value, if we lean on those three things, then we can build on it.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was understanding so much more of um the day-to-day operation of an SDR and the metrics and the call volume and and the objection handling.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's such a different world.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: You get some exposure to it from like your sales training that your pre-sales team is going to go through, I think maybe at your annual sales conference or or annual training type of thing.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's absolutely like how you coach, how you track, how you um report out details, like everything is is so significantly different.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very true.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel so there's always like friction, I feel like, between sales and like pre-sales?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because we hear it even in like pre-sale specific conferences, it's always like, well, how do we make sure that A's or SDRs, et cetera, or sales in general are bringing the right opportunities in front of pre-sales and we're not wasting time either creating a POC or POV, and you know, at the end of the day, they're not qualified.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Have you seen you managing SDRs and pre-sales now kind of help with that at all?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: In a way, right?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this goes back to again, a lot of the core focus is on really solid discovery.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: So when I took over, um, without getting into like a ton of specifics on compensation, but like they were focused on held and um scheduled meetings.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: That was that was their their core metrics, uh, which is fine.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of SDI organizations do that.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what we noticed was there's a lot of things being scheduled that didn't show.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of things that were scheduled that weren't actual sales opportunities, just like an account review type of thing.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we moved away from that almost immediately to say, like, well, I want to focus on quality because if they're identifying leads and opportunities for the sales team and sales time is always valuable, well, let's put valuable opportunities in front of them instead of making them go dig for it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not to say that a scheduled meeting that that you know is doesn't have a specific target can't result in a sale, but you want to, you know, build up the positives to the front.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um so discovery, and again, hearkening back to the germ journalism side of it, if you do solid discovery and understand that there's a real need and encourage that customer to see the there is something that can help them to solve their problem or or whatever they're facing, then they're more likely to show up to the sales column and more likely to listen to what the opportunity is.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: On the end of that side, right, your solutions consultants, since they typically do a lot of more technical discovery, what I've tried to do is kind of pair that together in a way.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now you can't do super depth technical discovery as an SC, as an SDR.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not going to work.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: But there's themes and trends of like, what do we hear in the industry?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: What are the what are the things that customers most bring to the forefront and we're trying to solve for, and then build your your cadences, your flows, your processes for your SDRs in a very similar way.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I would be obviously we don't have to talk about it here, but I would be very interested to see numbers like before you were managing SDRs versus now, because I do think that specifically in pre-sales, like you're taught to add a ton of value and not be salesy.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to see how it's been since.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it'll be interesting to see if you guys ever post numbers or anything like that, but to see how SDRs maybe went from more transactional to like a mixture of, you know, obviously sales, because you still need that component plus of value and how that's changed the um sales cycle.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that'd be interesting to see.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, you guys are tracking that.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we are, but I I will say that the pivot that we made when I said quality, I didn't I didn't uh Quantify that, but we we we moved to held converted to an opportunity as a lever, as well as closed sales that were sourced from an SDR lead.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so again, you when when when part of your compensation is tied to the success of that lead turning into a sale, then that was the big shift.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, our conversion rates, our held rates, they all have continued to increase.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I've got a great leadership team too.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I can't take any credit in all of this.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: We've all worked together to try and determine what's that best mix of motivation and and and compensation structure to support it.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, we we continue to to increase to the positive.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and I don't know that I've got the the four years ago numbers.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: I should try and go back and look.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good call.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And check it out.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this turn, I love that you guys are thinking that because typically I've seen leaders do it wrong in the sense that they're thinking short term.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: And like the short-term thinking is what do we want out of SDRs?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: We want meetings.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, let's track and you know make compensation around that.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Versus in a long-term thinking, you're like, what do we really want is the outcome of a closed sale.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: So when you reverse engineer, that is not so much about the meeting, it's more about the sale.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, now you're compensating and tracking the right things.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: I guess leading versus lag and indicators per se.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I mean the other challenge of an SDR organization that again is is 180 degrees from ISC org is turnover, right?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're designed to be starting roles to get you to sales.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: So our turnover is so fast, you know, and we try and keep them a year in seat before before transitioning opportunities.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And some last a little longer and some don't, yeah, if you have prior experience.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: But um, trying to do that all at the same time of of coaching and developing new people in a constant rotation is so much different than fine-tuning uh, you know, a well-oiled machine that that the assertion consultant organization is for me.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, kind of like the theme of our podcast really today was wearing a lot of hats as a pre-sales leader.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: How is in from what you've seen, how is a pre-sales leader role today different from what it was?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not even gonna go gonna go 10 years ago, but let's just say five years ago.
• 24:44
  unknown: Yeah.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that's like expected now that wasn't before?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've changed a lot.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and and it's been eight years for me from when I first took over, and it was very highly, you know, demo focused.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it was how many demos can you squeeze in the day?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Most of our process was like light discovery.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: They want to see the product.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: We get in there and do kind of like a hybrid discovery demo that results in a follow-up and then another one after that.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I really think that there was a lot of sales organizations five, eight years ago.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: That was the that was the thing that the thinking around the job is you're just there to demo over time.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And there's been great leaders in the pre-sales space who have kind of advocated this, and and I've tried to take it on at Thompson Reuters myself, is the so much data and insight that a solution consultant has, not just from that prospect interaction, and yes, that's valuable, but to do the job well.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I mentioned earlier, right?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: The marketing side and to know the messaging and the strategy, the industry, the insights, the product knowledge, the sales acumen, the presentation skills, like everything that plays into it, that's just gold for all those other divisions.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So becoming more of an influencer in the business from a pre-sales space, I think is the biggest shift that I've seen.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: And now, where originally it was just like how many demos could we do, and you know, multiply by the number of people you have, and that's your output and that's your metric.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's gotten a lot blurrier when we're partnering with marketing for all their events, when we're doing webcasts all the time, when we're partnering with the product teams to talk about functionality and features in the roadmap and what validates it, and what ideas do you have, and what use cases do you have as a solution consultant that we can look at and building into the solutions?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: All that was just very, very minimal, if at all, five years ago.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and now it's uh I think it's an expectation of the job.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that as pre-sales, though, we've we've wanted that, right?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I correct me if I'm wrong.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's we understood our value way, way before maybe companies actually did.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And now that we're there, do we like it?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do we not like it?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're you're a product of your own success.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's part of the part of the challenge, is that it becomes relied upon.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And this is now where I find my org, we're trying to find that balance and and boundaries to say, well, what is the expectation of a product marketing org when it comes to XYZ process and where do solution consultants influence that?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: We certainly can't take it all on.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there there is that risk when when you say, like, oh, all these things we can help with, well, great, then just hire more SCs and you guys do it.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, now you're you're bleeding the lines.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and there are things where, you know, I've I've gone back and forth, and I'll I always hearken back to to Todd Jansen when he was at Salesforce.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: He had his Q branch that had a strategy division and a delivery team too.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the delivery was like 70, 30 split on the on the delivery side, 30% strategy, and then the reverse for the strategy team, and they're partnering with all of those other groups.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you have to keep the 30% delivery to keep a pulse on the industry and the market and the customers to be able to do the strategy well.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, is that a uh direction the industry's going?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, because that there is so much value and insight that solution consultants bring.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then can those other divisions operate in a vacuum without those customer touches?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: And as you're being handed more and more scope, what does wearing those hats of property look like?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we kind of touched a little bit on this, but how do you decide what gets your time each week or things that you need to hand off or stop doing?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's not always easy because the calendar is always full.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I will say one of the things that I started doing uh not too long ago was blocking time to do work, like to do some of the things that you have to prioritize the start of your week, to know what you're gonna tackle that week.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, it's it's in my case, I'm pulled in two directions at all times, right?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's the SDRs and do we have enough leads?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do we have quality?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are we working through performance management?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Are we hiring new people?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's the other side of can I maintain the the quality and the volume and the close rate and the revenue influence of the SC org year after year after year and always tack on more to do better.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, how how do you determine that?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of it falls on the leadership team.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I've again, I mentioned I've got great leaders on both sides, whether it's the SDRs or the solution consultants, and you know, those leadership meetings are probably the priorities of every week.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is what do they have facing them?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: What are the challenges?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: What can I help with and remove roadblocks from?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or what can we just talk through and strategize on what's best for that next month's quota or then you know the next uh um surge that they're gonna do and and try and do a contest around it for an SDRs?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, on the on the solution consultant side, what are the trends that we're seeing?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: What are the sales reps that that are constantly pushing the boundary of you know not having all of your information before a demo?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we communicate to those sales managers?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: And what are we looking at from a quota expectation and what can we be creative about and think up and try and influence?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, week by week, there's so many outside factors that you have to think about what do I want to make a difference with, and then dive into it.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, it's it's pre-sales leaders that don't have the SDRs.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say always look at where you add value to the sales organization 100%.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you have to do.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and I guess very broadly, it's the same thing for an SDR like how do you add value to the sales or it's just taking much different steps to get there.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like you guys are doing it right because uh I obviously heard of organizations that have between like the sales leaders and pre-sales or customer success, because at the end of the day, they'll just all connect together.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not, I feel like it's not about like you versus me and who's doing it better and you guys suck, but it's more like how do we collab and fix it jointly and you know, make sure that it's a great customer experience from the second elite walks in to an SDR all the way to like customer success and account management.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it sounds like you guys are doing that great.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm so glad you said that though, because the customer experience should always remain paramount.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the other thing that I always fall back on is doing right by the customer and and from a solution consultant specifically, right?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: You serve the customer trying to solve a problem, but you also serve the sales rep trying to make a sale.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I've always tried to say we err on the side of the customer because that experience is going to be more important in the long term than that one sale in the moment.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: But it's hard, it's it's a company value that we have, and it still is, you know, sales specifically, like they have a quota to hit.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And if they don't, then their job's on the line.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I understand and empathize, like it's not always easy to do that job, but the best sales reps are partners to their SDRs and solutions consultants, and they work together to both improve.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: They lean on SCs for knowledge, they help SDRs develop.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that sounds like maybe a uh too much of an expectation when that quota is on the line.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: But if you want the best outcome, you have to work with your team.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, very true.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Tony, I'm gonna put you on the spot again.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you and I talked about a book you might have coming up here soon, and we're gonna hold you accountable.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you talked about writing about stoicism and pre-sales.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little bit about the core idea.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: How does that thinking kind of show up in how you lead your teams?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Or and of course, you know, when can we expect the book?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right, right.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, and I've I've faced that moment of life where I've got uh an eight and a 12-year-old.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's life is taking the the back or the the book is taking a backseat to life.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: So so I appreciate the a little uh nudge and pressure to to push it.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: I really like I need to buckle down these next three months and see what I can put together.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um but no, the the the concept itself, truthfully, I I did a uh a session at Demo Fest four or five years ago now.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it talks about like the four tenets of stoicism, which are wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: And all four of those, as I kind of leaned into it, I really think that there's parallels into what we do.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh wisdom is pretty simple, right?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: We have to know what we're talking about.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's a basic one.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not just that you have to know the length and breadth of everything in the product as a pre-sales person.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: You have got to have the knowledge and understanding of when to speak and when to stop.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a far different thing than just intellect, right?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the the justice piece, I feel like, is doing the right thing.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: And this goes back to is it the customer or the the sales rep that you're really doing this for?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Are you skirting the corners and maybe positioning the higher solution to get the dollars?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Are you doing right by the customer and doing the right recommendation based on their needs?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are those are things that I think prominently come to it.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Courage, right?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think everybody that goes into a demo that doesn't have all the details, we have to face courage every day.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta know that things are gonna go sideways.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: You'll have a question out of the blue, you'll have a system crash or something.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's always courage there.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: And temperance is balance.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And this is really hard as a leader, and I would encourage anybody to really think about it, especially this time of year.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: We're getting ready for the holidays, things are getting busy.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: Balancing out work in life is so important because you will absolutely burn out if you put all your all into it.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I was there.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's I when I first under or took on the pre-sale seat team, I didn't have any knowledge in it.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: I traveled with sales reps, I tried to understand the business differently because I was used to being a trainer.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then I moved into sales.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: And for years, it was travel and just stepping up and doing it and answering calls on the West Coast and you know from the East Coast.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: So later in the day, starting my day in the morning earlier and just getting things picked up.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you have to find that balance to things.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I it's good for all things in life is is balance, which is kind of the other thing I like about the stoicism concept is it's all transferable stuff in life, it's not just work-oriented.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very true.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in terms of the balance, um, that's been like a very hot topic lately to where it's like it's not always going to be 50-50, and that's okay.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: But realizing that when it does tilt too much one way, that you have to start balancing it out, you know, the other way.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, like you said, you try not to burn out.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if and if it happens, I mean we're all human, we I think we've all been like in the burnout phase, take a step back, you know, kind of reset, rebalance, and then start over.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it is, I mean, uh, whatever companies change what their policies are for time off, you know, we we moved to an unlimited format a couple of years ago, which initially pushed people to take less because you don't know when to take it and you don't have that encouragement.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I I need to take the advice I always give my managers and actually use my own time off.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but it is like you have to use it, you have to recharge.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say, my wife's company, um, um, she's a marketing director for a financial planning firm, but they have a requirement that you take one full week off per quarter, and you have to take the full week together because you think about it, like we're just constantly going, oh, I'll take a Friday off and a long weekend, and it'll be nice.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: And taking a full week and unplugging and getting away and that recharge is so important.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, very true.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Can we bring more?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we just got onto our rapid fire section now.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, these are fast questions, but they don't have to be fast answers.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: So feel free to take however long you want to.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, number one is what is one tool you can't live without right now?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I have to say you can't say AI.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: I can't say Claude, come on.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's the one no AI is the answer for everything right now.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I I still and and not this is gonna sound like a plug, but because we've been a customer with them for for a long time.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: But consensus continues to be something that I has changed our sales process.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and when I look at how do you maximize the knowledge and resources of a solution consultant team, digital demos, like automation of digital demos, has been the biggest change to our sales process that's seen the most consistent benefit.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: I know my my team at the time when we first started using it, they were fearful they were going to lose their jobs, right?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because oh, it's gonna take over.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's the same fears exist with AI.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: But every year since our close rates have increased, right?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: We've had more content that gets in front of customers sooner, whether that's prospecting like top of funnel, or if it's it's mid-funnel, like targeted content, or if it's you know, replays that can be used internally and externally for webinars and such.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it is it is a daily thing where we're reviewing the library, we're updating content, we're looking at, you know, and they they continue to advance the the tech itself.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's continuing to be more effective.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, I like to say that we're at the top of the percentages for view times and view rate and open rates.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like we've done a really, really great job.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: The sales organization has taken it on, and and now it's just kind of self-sustaining.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, nice, very nice.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: What is the biggest growth lever for SaaS in 2026?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm, man, I almost say the same thing.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not using digital automation, like you that's there's so much of this, and this goes back to like where where pre-sales brings value is always the demo, right?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's oftentimes a sales organization just will kind of bypass some things because well, they just want to ask questions, they just want to get in front of somebody who knows the answers.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you you have a level of knowledge difference between a sales rep and a solution consultant.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: There has to be.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's the job, right?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's the technical depth that you're able to bring into it.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there's a way to take some of those things and really look at your sales process.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: What I found when we first started using that, and I think is is a big positive, um there's a lot of low-hanging fruit deals that are out there.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there's plenty of times we've gotten in a demo and just kind of answered a couple of questions and moved on where a video could have solved that and they would have been able to move forward in the sale without having a live demo.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a resourcing thing for me, and it's continued to be where if you're leveraging something that opens up or frees up your team to do the things they really need to do with a customer who is a niche industry and it's really going to be kind of a challenging back and forth.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's important to have time available for.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want the check the box demos where it's just, oh yeah, looks great.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: We just wanted to see it again.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's a way we can do that without without uh you know killing your resources.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'll have to agree on that.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: As a buyer, I've definitely been in either websites or you know, if I'm looking at CRMs or systems that I'm looking to purchase myself.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if they don't have any sort of demo and like I actually have to just speak to somebody to get just basic information, it honestly can be annoying because I want to prepare a little bit, make sure that it would fit my initial criteria, and then go into a call or demo and then really ask all the nitty-gritty questions that I have.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: So versus like exactly versus jumping in and then it's like, oh, well, this wasn't the good fit anyway.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: So now we just wasted both of our times.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, agreed.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, 100%.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: It and you know, I think we're at a generational shift with buyers too.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're much less like handshaking a cigar to make a deal versus you know, a lot of that legwork on their own digitally before talking to a person, or even not wanting to talk to a person at all and have a truly digital experience.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's it's an interesting.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: How do we manage both for right now?
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what is one belief that you have that most people would disagree with?
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good question.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I was going back and forth, uh, let's see, with my leadership team, because when we went through this whole promotion thing, it's like, is the the internal promotion more valuable than the external?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what brings new perspective in?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say, like, we our our last process we ended up promoting internally, but I the several times previously I would say, like, what is the non-traditional person that we can hire to bring in and bring a new perspective to the team?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because you you do risk if you're always hiring internally, you've got a little bit of that of bias of process, like just an awareness and a and a consistency with what you've always done.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: I would say it's important to refresh when you're doing hires every so often to bring in somebody from the external side in a non-traditional type.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: For me, teachers have been utterly fantastic to bring in as pre-sales resources.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if you think about like what we're asked to do, a teacher is underpaid.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: They constantly shift the message to the audience, they're able to manage a large group who are obviously uh all in different directions at the same time, right?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and what we have to do, like to be able to be a lifetime learner and have that mindset, teachers have been fantastic.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if I disagree with hiring teachers, but I would encourage anybody to look into it if you're yeah.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you brought up an interesting point, and I won't get too much into it, but I I've seen a shift, at least the companies that we hire a lot with, which are mostly startups, you know, the nature of our business and recruiting is startups that are high growth.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of their um requirements, especially, you know, as they're growing, is domain expertise.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's been a tough one for the market nowadays.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think the market is, I feel like the market is not bad and it's not good.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit weird.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that it always comes up is like, okay, we need them to have domain expertise.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like that depends on like the product type, you know, how technical it is versus not?
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: What's your overall thoughts on that?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, a little of both.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I've always said that there's one of two things that's got to be present for me to look at hiring a solution consultant.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: And domain expertise is one.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you know the product or the industry and you've got that background, that's fantastic.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you're gonna be a leg up in the training process.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: But the other side of it is just that ability to communicate effectively and connect with people, that is much harder to train on.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, so I've I've gone down that process and hired people with no industry insight, no pre-sales insight, but they had that spark, that communication, that style that that you can have them talk about anything and people are going to listen.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: I can train a lot of the domain stuff.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: And in our case, too, we're taxing accounting software.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have any tax background when I came into it.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, aside from the internal hires that that I moved in, any external, we bring in anybody that had prior, you know, CPA experience or accounting experience or anything like that.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they've been some of the most successful SCs we have.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it does have very industry-dependent uh, you know, tie-ins to it, where if there are uh certain things, your timeline for expectation for ramp that also plays a big factor.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I get a little bit of a I guess benefit on my side because we've got like 15 products that we're we're selling in our space.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a that's a long ramp time to learn.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's some core products you start with and then you expand and grow, but it's a it's a two to three year window to bring somebody in to understand a full suite.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and there has to be that bandwidth.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have that, you don't have the window of ramp time and it's just now go.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, of course, you have to rely on that domain expertise to shortcut the process.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very chill.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, what was a hiring mistake that you made and what did it teach you?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I am uh I'm a notorious optimist and I see good in everybody.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that I think has has over the years, not that I've become cynical about it or anything, but but I have looked at things from a different lens.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I did like there's good people that are in situations, and you learn about stuff that you know, the where they're looking to transition from, and you kind of make some hiring decisions based on whether or not they um um.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you overlook whether it's a fit, but you know that that person is is has potential.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I like to see the potential in everybody because everybody brings a different, you know, value to the to the team.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, have not been a hundred percent.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's that's for sure.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would be a red flag if you told me I hit a hundred person.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody I hire is perfect.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think but a lot of it is you kind of you you you quiet that voice in your head that that that starts to talk about those red flags and you try and promote the positive potential instead of looking at where there's a red flag and making the best business decision in the moment.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Not not fun to deal with, but I think there's something that every leader's probably gone through.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'll tell you mine.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I guess I've never shared this before, but my bias, which I don't do anymore, I try to be way more logical.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: But is if I connect really well with you, I will try and forget, like if you're, you know, kind of like you said, I guess a little bit optimistic of like, okay, well, he or she doesn't have one, two, three, but like she's such a great person or he's such a good person.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm in recruiting and I still make that mistake if I'm hiring personally.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when I'm helping others, I can see things way more logically because I'm not in it and like so emotionally invested.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: But um, that's something that I've definitely had to learn personally when I'm hiring for myself.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: So and that's something we can just teach people either.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think everybody has to make that mistake and learn through it to make it stick.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: It is definitely, yeah, I was gonna say for sure one of those where it's like no matter how much I tell you, it's like, well, just let me fail it, and then I'll learn from my mistake.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all right, awesome.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: On the hiring side, I wanted to know a little bit on your perspective as a hire manager, especially this last year.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like we mentioned, the market has been a little bit weird lately, but what are some things that you do look for when it comes to hiring or maybe common red flags that for you are like immediate no so that people can, I wouldn't say avoid them, but at least learn how to overcome them.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the I guess the red flags to look out first.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've always tried to do in the in the interview process initially on you want to have somebody give you some experience stories, right?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: To to talk about a time when and then give them a scenario that that you're trying to understand, whether that's time management, uh, whether that's uh communication with a partner, uh, like a sales counterpart or some other level there.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and if they're unable to give the specifics, like, and I've pressed people on multiple, like, well, it's a great understand generally what you're trying to say, that you're always helpful with other people or whatever, but do you have a specific situation when?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if they can't give those up to me, that's a red flag.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're either A, don't have that experience and they aren't being, you know, completely forthcoming about what that looks like, or they don't want to tell you because they they haven't maybe done well at those things.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, yeah, if you don't give specifics, it's it's certainly a red flag for me.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: What I look for though, and and kind of what we already alluded to a little bit, is from solution consultants specifically, like you are the energy of the deal.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have an ability to bring some of that energy into an interview process that you're trying to sell me on yourself, right?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like somebody who comes in who's confident and has that high energy and is able to communicate effectively and do all those things, those are those are the things you want to look for.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's tough because in tech sales specifically, and especially if domain expertise is kind of the forefront.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, engineers don't have oftentimes that same level of energy and enthusiasm that you really need to bring into a demo.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, it's a sales role.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's blending that technical and the sales side.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I will always go back to you're you're gonna have better bets with the energy and teach the tech.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: That that's kind of where I lean on it.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you already gave out this answer, but just to put it in like a structure format, yeah.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: What separates somebody that is good versus like an eight player in pre-sales?
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I and and I think you need both.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let me let me say that first.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't mean to say like if you're a good SE, then that's a problem and you always have to do more.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: But a good, a good solutions consultant sales engineer, they get the job done, right?
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: They they they work within the confines of what they're given, they're successful with the the tasks at tasks at hand.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: That is a good solutions consultant.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: You have a good close rate, you have good connection rapport with your sales counterparts, like whatever all the metrics are that you follow.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you're good and you achieve those goals, perfect.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a problem.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: And those, again, those are necessary for teams to have people who come in, do the job, and that's it.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: But your A players, the ones who are gonna be the, you know, lack of a better term, but above and beyond folks, right?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna look for more and they're gonna recommend things.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna look at your process and say, hmm, can I make this better and make recommendations?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: They might not have the leadership title yet, but your top players are always looking for ways that you can take what you do today and level it up.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just for themselves either, right?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: It certainly everybody can go out and learn more and apply concepts and make yourself better and you know, build your strengths.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, everybody should.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're looking at how do I not only build myself up, but build the opportunities of the team up.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do I help my peers to get better?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: What when I listen and I hear something being phrased in a in a demo in the office environment, or if you know, if you're all virtual, then hopefully there's some sort of rotation where you listen to each other's demos and just look for opportunities to steal shamelessly, is what I always say.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you have good things, steal shamelessly, but also offer the same insights and opportunities in the other direction, right?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're proactively doing those things, to me, that's an A player.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I love that plagiarism is not a think in the real world versus you know, when you're writing.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure you probably got that from journalism.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, a training background, that was the one thing.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't replicate energy, you can't replicate, you know, replicate particular stories or examples or whatever.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: But if you have something to build from, like that's where steal shamelessly, the data, the this, the example, the the scenario that you want to phrase, absolutely, and then make it your own.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's the other caveat to it.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have to bring your personality, yourself, your experiences into it.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, it feels scripted and and fake in the moment.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: Tony, you've been amazing.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining me.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: This was fun.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love it.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, where's the best place people can connect with you?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: LinkedIn's the easiest.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, until the, you know, there's the the book thing, and I don't know if there'll be a website eventually, but no, for now, LinkedIn and and you know, I try and really live that uh the the four tenants that I keep talking about in my in my posts.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: I try and do a Monday motivation and Wednesday wisdom post that are always tied into that kind of same stoicism concept.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I will say it's it's uh engagement's not the point, and and certainly encourage if it can help and it makes a difference for somebody, fantastic.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I need the same level of motivation and wisdom and encouragement myself.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's equally selfish as it is to make sure and hopefully help somebody else out at the same time.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say sometimes I write the post for myself because I need it in that moment.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: No other plot or something helped me overcome it.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, this is actually good.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe somebody will want the same thing.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, somebody out there needs it.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but thank you so much again for coming on, sharing all of your wisdom and being super transparent on everything.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's honestly so much notes to take from this episode.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm hoping that if you did watch this live, you can go back and actually take notes from either our podcast or YouTube channel.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, feel free to connect with Tony.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, thank you, Tony, and everybody for tuning in.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'll see you next time.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks all.