Latest / She's Next Level / 49: Why Women Struggle With Body Image + How To Release Shame & Guilt Around Food w/Rachel Evans
Transcript
- Rachel Evans: I think shame and guilt from other things get transferred to food. what is the reason that you feel like you need to not finish everything on your plate? Is it because you're like, well, actually it's that I'm worried about gaining weight? So in that case we'd have a conversation about the worry about gaining weight. I think as well, sometimes there can be this element of like punishment. Like either I need to punish myself or I'm not allowed to have nice things, I'm not allowed to have this body that I want because somehow this body that I want is not safe for me. Like there can actually be a lot of things going on in that one behaviour. I think a binge or like comfort eating can often be a lot about avoidance or about like wanting to zone out Darshna Patel: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the She's Next Level podcast. I'm your host, Darch, and I help women look hotter, feel healthier, and be happier. And in today's episode, I have Rachel Evans She is a specialist for eating disorders and helping women that suffer from bulimia. So I'm excited to dive deeper into today's topic, which is gonna be all around releasing shame and guilt and anything to do with experiencing eating disorders. And if you've ever had a hard time just loving your body just as you are, and have a hard time with food and your relationship with food, we're gonna dive deeper into all the things that can help you in having a healthier relationship with food and your body. So, Rachel. I love to know what the hell is bulimia because when I first saw it, I was like, I've never heard of it, but I've heard of eating disorders. So what is bulimia? Rachel Evans: Yeah, so let me just back up a little bit. I think when people think about eating disorders, they probably think about anorexia, they probably think about people aren't eating, which is actually not true. People with anorexia can be eating as well, but you know, you're not they're not eating enough to sustain their body at a certain a certain weight. we don't often think sometimes we might think about binge eating, which is a classified eating disorder. So that is when someone is consuming quite a lot of food in a small amount of time. So it's not just that because you know, sometimes of the year, say like Christmas for example, maybe, you know, people tend to overconsume. That in itself isn't an eating disorder. With binge eating, often people are eating in secret, maybe quite fast. Maybe people are zoning out when they're eating. Often you can feel quite a lot of shame for it. I think I might have just said, Yeah, you're doing it secret. so maybe like in your car or in your house, like hiding the rapids, there's like Love other things that come with that behaviour as well. Actually, fundamentally, it's a coping mechanism. So with bulimia, people are engaging in the binge eating and then trying to compensate for that because you know you're worried about you know the amount of calories that you've eaten and the impact that's gonna have on your body primarily. so that might be things like making yourself throw up, taking laxatives, like fasting, excessive fasting. exercise, so anyways that you're trying to make up for what you have eaten in a binge, and also that you know how you feel about your body and how you think you look also has a big impact on you and your day. So I think it does get into grey areas and we're saying like, well, do you fit this categorisation or not? Because you know, sometimes people might make themselves throw up without having had a binge. So there are sort of grey areas In it, but I think if you're making yourself throw up after eating on purpose, probably not a good thing to be doing. Also, I should probably say as well, I have lived experience with bulimia. So it's like I understand Darshna Patel: Wow. Rachel Evans: why I did it and why people do it, but ultimately, you know, you think you're compensating and it's unhealthy for me to have eaten all that food, but it's actually very unhealthy for then you go and throw it up. So I can understand that we're Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: talking about, you know, where did it come from today, but fundamentally it's obviously not good for your body to be doing these behaviours. Darshna Patel: Yeah, for sure. So you've experienced it. So I'd love to know like how was your journey and then you discovering that you were experiencing bulimia? Because I think I can when you were talking about all the symptoms, I was like, Well, I never made myself throw up, but I used to feel really guilty and then go work out extra and like Rachel Evans: I know. Darshna Patel: do all these things to compensate and like I used to binge eat a lot, but then I also used to undereat sometimes and like Rachel Evans: Mm-hmm. Darshna Patel: not eat and starve myself. I can notice these patterns. So I'd love to know like your story and like how did you know that you had or you were experiencing bulimia and what was like your story behind this? Rachel Evans: But yeah, let me try and give you the so top level version here because you know it was over years, so it could could take a long Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: time for me to explain. The top level version is I think growing up, I had all the usual messages about, you know, your worth is how you look, boys will like you if you look a certain way, didn't really feel good enough in general. I put a lot of myself worth on getting good grades, which wasn't a problem as such while I was studying and I did a lot of sports. as well. and then in my third year of uni, I just I thought I was being healthy, as we do. You know, I've started getting more food rules from magazines or things that I saw online. so this was like 2012. So it was before Instagram was a really big thing. I think right now there is so much nutrition information and misinformation. It's very easy to pick up on all of these Darshna Patel: my God. It's too much. Rachel Evans: food rules. But the thing is it It's not just the information, it's that layer underneath that we're going to be talking about today. It's the how you're feeling about yourself makes you susceptible to, you know, not listening to your body anymore and thinking someone else knows better about what your body needs than you do. so then I stopped, well I did a masters, but then I was finishing the masters, so it's almost like I was losing getting myself worth from getting good grades. And also I stopped the sport. So it's only in retrospect that I realised that had such a massive impact. on me and how I was feeling. So I basically like channeled my energy into like I can be good then at like working out. I can be good at like eating healthy and not eating all of those things. and kind of getting a sense of pride from that. So it didn't start as bulimia. I'd say in my professional opinion I speak to very few people who it starts off as binging and purging. Often they've been through some form of restriction first. Not always but you know often. so I actually got an award in the third year of my psychology degree for an essay about eating disorders. Did I recognise when this was happening to me? Absolutely not. it just did not click. I thought everything I'm doing is like fine. Apart from then I couldn't go out and eat in a restaurant because they didn't have something that I would eat and I was really anxious about it and like I couldn't just make a compromise for one day. For example, or I remember the gym being closed and I was so stressed about like working out that day, or I'd have to w wake up earlier and earlier to work out just so I'd make sure I got it in so I wasn't anxious if I didn't do it that day. Darshna Patel: Wow. Rachel Evans: so it was starting to creep in and take over, but it was really because I think I just felt quite directionless in my life after my master's was in health psychology. to be a health psychologist in England, you have to do like another stage of training. But to do that, you basically have to get all your own placements. So it's really tricky. So I was like, well, I can't do that. So what shall I do? I got a research job abroad in Singapore. And so everyone I talked to is like, my God, you went to Singapore. Is that amazing? Well, it was nice, but I also had disordered eating, probably an eating disorder that was never diagnosed. so I just did I couldn't make the most of it because a lot of social things when you're meeting new people are around food. And so I couldn't really engage with that. I ended up like isolating myself, being very unhappy, or I just spent like a whole evening like pinning food on Pinterest that I was never ever going to eat because I wouldn't let myself. so like my world was getting very small. My family came out and saw me, they were very concerned about me. I did have this one kind of light bulb of like maybe I'm not okay. and I went to one eating disorder support group. I remember like leaving that and going to a restaurant and trying to order this food. It didn't come how I expected. I just started crying in this restaurant because this food wasn't what I thought. It was I was like challenging myself to eat this. I don't want to say what it is, just in case it triggers people. but yeah this poor server was like, my God, is it not okay for you? And then I just went back into such denial because no one was holding me accountable. because all the people I just met thought Rachel's really healthy. Like Rachel works out every day. Rachel walks to work and works out and always brings a salad where we go to the canteen. Like they had only seen me in that kind of identity. They didn't see the whole struggle that was going on in my head behind all of this and all of these decisions. and I never really had the urge to binge. I was restricting a lot, but kind of in that restriction. and then I came home, I actually got a some private therapy. For the under eating, I started like binging. Like I think the therapy was helping, like shake something up, but then I just started eating uncontrollably. So sometimes this is called like primal hunger. Or maybe people listening might kind of recognize it. Do you know, for example, sometimes people who do like bodybuilding competitions and they've been Darshna Patel: I've definitely experienced that. I think I do that more often. Like, it's just like it's so good and I can't stop. Rachel Evans: Yeah, but this was like I was waking up in the middle of the night, literally the middle of the night, and like just eating so much food from the kitchen and it's like I couldn't stop and I remember I told my therapist and she wasn't a specialist in eating disorder, she was really lovely, she helped me, but she did not understand. She was like, Well, could you do some yoga? And I'm like, No, because it feels like this urge is me. I didn't explain it earlier that That at the time, but this is how I explain it now. It felt like a compulsion, like, I have to go and do this. I cannot stop myself. And also things like I would know that my mum would have a certain yogurt that she wanted. I wouldn't let myself eat it in the day at all. But as soon as it was night time and I closed all the blind all the blinds in the kitchen, I would eat it, and then I'd have to go to like the supermarket at 6 a.m. when it opened to buy my mum this new yogurt because I couldn't have not eaten it. And she would try and hide it in the fridge and I would find it because I knew it was there. And it's like, I'm not trying to eat your yogurt that I know you want, but I just literally felt like I couldn't not do it. because I was so hungry and I think my body was like, that's the only time you'll let yourself eat. However, then the things that I would eat were things that, like I say, I wouldn't let myself eat that in the day. So then I started making myself throw up on top of all the exercise that I was doing. to compensate because you just think like this gets rid of the food. You don't actually think like this is messing with my electrolyte levels, it's actually quite dangerous. something that I relearned the other day that I think I knew but like had forgotten, actually, if you make yourself throw up, sometimes if you're really unlucky, the food can go down your air pipe into your lungs. Like you're so fixated. Darshna Patel: shit. That's crazy. Rachel Evans: So fixated on like I need to get rid of this, and not like what is it doing to my esophagus, what is it doing to my teeth, what is it doing to my heart, like putting the stress on your body. but also just to say, like, in that moment. Darshna Patel: Yeah. And it burns like a bitch. Rachel Evans: But like in that moment, like those things were not big enough risks for me to stop it because I just felt so much like shame, which is I guess what we'll come on to talk about, shame about what I'd eaten. so really at that point I didn't have an eating disorder diagnosis still, even though I was doing all these behaviours. I actually kind of leveled out a bit. I was eat started eating a bit more in the day because I realized like if I'm eating all this at night, well I might as well eat some more in the day. And try and stop eating so much at Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: night. Obviously, my body changed very quickly in terms of bloating, but also Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: like weight gain. I started a PhD in the psychology of eating. I thought I didn't have an eating disorder. I thought, like, I'm eating way more food than I used to, but now I look back at the pictures of what I was eating because I was like photographing my food. It was nowhere near enough. I was still cutting out loads of food. I was still like binging and purging at least once a week. I was stealing my housemate's food and having to replace it. But like I thought I am fine and healthy. I just went so much into denial again. so that was happening for like a year that it was kind of stable the same. And then the thing that kicked it into overdrive was I thought I wasn't doing very well at my PhD. Like I didn't analyse my data when I thought I should have done and I couldn't have this meeting with my supervisor because he was on holiday. Then I moved to live on my own. So again, like no accountability. Like at least with housemates, I had some accountability for things that then actually then I started binging and purging like every day and multiple times a day. And it's like before I kind of had my own rules about it. Like I think the rule was always like you can only do it in the evening. But then I think once I broke that rule and started doing it lunchtime, and then it would literally be the whole day that I would do it multiple times. And I don't share this to be like wow, Rachel, that's really extreme, or like not for people to compare themselves to, but like obviously that's part of my story. I think even if this is happening once a week, even if it's happening once a month, it's still something, you know, that is affecting you and you can get support for. so yeah, that was about three months that that was happening. But then I was like, right, I really have to change this because I cannot live like this. Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: like it just was not sustainable. So like some of my clients have had an eating disorder like since they were 16 and now they're in their like 40s, 50s, 60s. I even had a 70 year old client. So I think for some people, you know, this is going on for a long time, but for me it was really like I just cannot not get support right now. Darshna Patel: Yeah, I think about my journey as you're talking about this. And for me, I grew up in like an Asian South Asian household where, you know, they would tell me that I'm getting fatter, but then they'll keep feeding me. And Rachel Evans: Mm-hmm. Darshna Patel: I I kind of had like I've had two weight loss journeys, you know, and During those weight loss journeys, I've tracked my calories. I've kind of been more on the restricting side of things. But, you know, I'm glad that you kind of shared some of the symptoms and some of the behaviors attached to this because I thankfully will say that I haven't had it to that extreme. But I would love to know, like, what are like how can you start to see the differences between having it versus like not having it? And what's that common like pattern because I think that even if I didn't have it, I still don't want to like get to that point where I end up having it. So like how can people start to notice those patterns? And, you know, let's say that they're like me and they haven't really gotten to that point, how can they avoid it? And let's say for the people that have, how can they start to notice like, no, this is an issue? What are those common patterns that you notice? Rachel Evans: Yeah, I think that's a really big question because I think for some people like the same behaviours might not be classified as an eating disorder than for other people. So for example, like you say, if you're counting calories, actually none of these things are in the diagnostic criteria themselves. They're more like the symptoms of it. but I'd say if you were counting calories, actually some people are like, This is information, okay, I'm gonna eat this, not that. Like it's very like more cognitive decision, like it doesn't bother them too much. I think if you're really anxious, if you're weighing everything to the absolute gram, if it like I say it's causing a lot of stress, you're like missing out on opportunities with your friends. Like I think the way that I talk about it with clients is like, how much is this impacting your overall wellbeing and your life? Does it feel like it's shrinking? But like I say, the tricky point in recognizing it for yourself is you're like, yeah, but you can like justify it be like, well I wasn't bothered about that meal or I wasn't bothered about that friend. because you actually don't want to eat more because you're scared of that. So I think for me it's when people maybe start losing a bit of flexibility. But then I also don't want to put my values and my goals on other people because people might have a fitness goal, for example. But I think as soon as like shame, guilt, stress, anxiety are like becoming predominant, it's not to say that you have an eating disorder, but I would think that if you look at your relationship with food, you're gonna have a lot happier life with that. Yeah. Darshna Patel: Why does food stress us out so much? Like, I'm just like, why is food such a thing that causes us to behave in these ways? Like, why? Rachel Evans: I mean, yeah, I mean it doesn't for me now because I have done a lot of work on it, can feel a lot more flexible, but I think kind of what we were saying more in the beginning around the body image side of things, like you know, we might have evidence from ourselves, but sometimes it's really easy to think like what I eat, like calories in, calories out, but it's obviously more complicated than that. So then you're really trying to control what you eat and you're not getting the result, and then I think it just gets more complicated with more diet rules and I'll try this thing because that person has and you've probably got your rose tinted glasses on when someone's lost weight and you think everything's good for them. But like now if I think about you know losing weight, I probably think, well when I lost loose of weight, I was cold all the time, I was really hungry, my hair was falling out, I didn't have my periods. Actually for me, I don't want to pursue that anymore. Like yes, some people might give me more compliments, but to me that's less important than My overall well-being or like today. I'm in a hotel right now. I'm doing a meetup tomorrow, so I decided to like drive because it was a few hours away. So basically, I'm in this hotel. I got there, like, there was no one in the bar. I ordered lunch. It took 40 minutes for a Caesar salad. And like, I mean, I was fine at the beginning, but I was getting a little bit hangry. And I just feel like in the past when I had an eating disorder, like for example, that would have been so stressful because it would have been like, what can I eat from the menu? I probably would have bought my own food to be honest. what can I eat? And then if it came and it wasn't like I was saying, if it wasn't exactly how I wanted it, or like now actually they did put loads of dressing on it, which doesn't bother me from like a stressed out side of thing, but I was like, this was too much for like my enjoyment. Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: And it took ages and then I was a little bit stressed because I was feeling like a difficult customer because I was like, I'm really hungry, where's my food? Please, I'm the only one, like you only have to make me a salad. There's no one else. But I just think that would have been such a nightmare. And especially as well, I think sometimes when you where you're saying why is food stressful. I think if you're hungry, a pattern I see is like it's harder to make choices about food when you're hungry or like chronically. hungry, like that decision has so much weight, or if you're like if I can only eat one cake this week, it must be the perfect cake and it must be so worth it. And if it's not, I'm gonna feel really bad about it. So I think there are actually lots of little factors involved in it. Darshna Patel: I feel like I turn into a bitch. I'm like no one talk to me. Rachel Evans: Well, the the person at the the the guy taking my order who I feel like wasn't doing his his job great, but Darshna Patel: Okay. Rachel Evans: he was he was nice enough, was like, you're hungry. I was like, Don't turn I didn't say this, I thought, don't turn this around to me being hungry. You've taken forty minutes to make my food when it's really simple, like this is not a me problem. But yes, I am hungry. Darshna Patel: I love that. So I like I love a good hangry moment though, because I sometimes I love my inner bitch, you know? It's like you gotta you gotta embody and love all parts of you. which speaking of the body and the food, I know we're gonna talk about shame and guilt, and I would love to know like what causes us to feel that shame and guilt when it comes to our relationship with food, You know, like I'm sure there's certain deeper emotions or deeper things that cause that shame and guilt to happen with food. And especially I feel like this comes up a lot for that physical self-image piece that you're talking about. Like growing up, we were all taught to look a certain way so that we can get the love and the attention. that we all want from the opposite sex or people in general. So like, why do we experience so much shame and guilt around the way that we eat? And how can we start to like shift that when it comes to cultivating a healthier relationship, not only with our food, but I really do think a lot of it and the reason behind the things that we do is because of our body and how we view our body. Rachel Evans: Yeah, good question. So I feel like there's actually like different things going on. And with my clients, I see it's like some things more than another for certain people. So I think there's the our experience piece in terms of maybe growing up. You've already talked about your family making certain comments. they're not coming to me off the top of my head like typical British ones right now. But do you know if you like have load of food on your head, someone's like, Darshna Patel: You guys are way more harsh than the the Americans, I'll say that. Rachel Evans: Yeah, I think all these comments basically about your food when you're growing up, or even just this idea like women have to eat less than men, all the things that you were taught, like then if you they kind of stay with you, don't they? Like and now I have Darshna Patel: Yeah, not. Rachel Evans: children as well. Like sometimes I have to stop myself like saying them because it's not like I believe it now, but it's just like the kind of thing you say in that situation, isn't it? Like, not a minute on the lip. Darshna Patel: Yeah. Or even the word fat, it's like the word fat is just so common. It's so programmed in us, like from society too, because we have societal contagions that like like even when I see someone and they're like larger, I like try not to say fat or I try not to have Rachel Evans: I know. Darshna Patel: that judgment. Cause I feel like that's what causes us to kinda feel that too. At least me. Rachel Evans: Yeah. I mean, you say that. I think there's an interesting side conversation as well, from not me specifically, but from my friends who are in large bodies, saying, actually you can call me fat. To me, fat is a neutral descriptor. It's a word to describe something. Yes, I have more fat and actually it's that judgment of the being fat is the negative thing, not the fat itself. is how some people think about Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: it. And like you said, you're using it as a slur. So I think it is is a really tricky one to like navigate because some people would find that insulting or take it badly. And I think so in terms of like yeah the experience piece, I think it's those small little comments. I think it's also what do we see our family doing? Like do you see your mum on a diet? Do you see like stereotypical like either grandma being like the overfeeder and you have to eat because it's love. So then maybe you might feel like you're programmed to eat more, or do you know they're more like grandmas who are more like a fair little bird and like never finish anything on their plates? And like, you know, we probably have one person like that in our family. so it's like, what have you learned about that? Was your family like? Did you always have to finish everything on the plate? I think our personality can come into it as well, because I think some people like, yes, it Growing up, we might learn to be like a good girl, but I think some people are a lot more sensitive to criticism or perceived criticism than other people are. And so you might want to try and make yourself fit in even more. And you're thinking, okay, well, the way that I can do that is by changing my body and looking a certain way. but I think that's also the piece in that shame and guilt from other things get transferred to food. and I have seen that a lot. So Good example that my client is happy to share with me. she was undereating, didn't have bulimia, and she kind of didn't know where it came from. And when we did a hypnotherapy session, the hypnotherapy session talk, hypnotherapy session was about guilt. and so I was asking, like, what is the root cause of this guilt? Like, you know, and she was thinking about a memory, and actually it was how she acted when her parents got divorced. That she had a lot of guilt about. But like as a child, I don't think she understood that she was feeling guilty. and then obviously as an adult, she was like, Well, I shouldn't be feeling guilty, like what I did was wrong with that. And so she kind of didn't ever talk to anyone about that situation. And so that guilt from that situation got transferred to food. And so she always had to do the right thing, right thing, quote unquote, because like I say, there's so many different food rules that say the exact opposite. if you look online, Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: but like got transferred. And like I wish every hypnotherapy session could be like that because honestly, like that guilt, she just started eat eating the things that she would have felt really guilty about before and like felt totally fine. it was actually quite amazing. so there's that that piece of it. So I think it's learn and I think it can be transferred. Darshna Patel: Yeah. So where do you think overeating comes from then? Like the emotions and the things tied to overeating? Like, and I mean overeating, meaning like you can't help but finish everything on your plate, even if you're full. Like eating past that like comfortable full state. Because I've noticed this a lot for me. Like I tend to do this and I have to slowly like I've been continuously training myself to Rachel Evans: Yeah. Darshna Patel: like not do that as much where I feel like I'm full and then now my stomach is like a little t mini bloated, but like kind of, you know. Rachel Evans: Yeah. Darshna Patel: really full. I did read this book called Woman, Food and God. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it did help me kind of understand a little bit about like the it like the patterns behind why you're like doing things is to avoid emotions. So I'd love to know like from you and like knowing that you specialize in this, like what is the emotion and the meaning behind like us trying to finish everything on our plate and not Allowing ourselves to just be comfortable instead of like overeating or even binging. Rachel Evans: Yeah, do you know what? I think it's gonna be different for different people. I think there can often be that piece of I've got to clear everything on my plate because if I don't then what have you learned about growing up? It's a waste. Don't throw food away. Like I think as well, like Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: my grandparents' generation were like, people are starving in Africa. We like had to go on rations, don't throw food away. So there's kind of that guilt piece in that, I suppose, if you don't finish it. I would also be talking with clients, like, okay, what is the reason that you feel like you need to not finish everything on your plate? Like, was it a really big portion and like you say actually no, I don't really want to feel uncomfortably full? Is it because you're like, well, actually it's that I'm worried about gaining weight? So in that case we'd have a conversation about the worry about gaining weight. I think as well, sometimes there can be this element of like punishment. Like either I need to punish myself or I'm not allowed to have nice things, I'm not allowed to have this body that I want because somehow this body that I want is not safe for me. Like there can actually be a lot of things going on in that one behaviour. So to me as well, like overeating that dinner feels different to then like maybe a behavior about picking around picking food all day, like grazing, or a behaviour around having a binge. Like those behaviours feel like they might have slightly different purposes and different reasons because I think a binge or like comfort eating can often be a lot about avoidance or about like wanting to zone out more than maybe finishing your dinner. Darshna Patel: Why is that? Like where's the avoidance coming from? Rachel Evans: so for me, actually, I didn't explain this very very well in my story. so when I was binging and purging in the end, it actually wasn't really about the food. so in the beginning it was very much like I didn't feel I couldn't not eat that. Now I've got to get rid of it. in the end, actually I learned that I'm really stressed about my PhD and if I'm binging and purging, I don't have to do it. So I don't have to I thought I was gonna fail at it. I I hope this makes sense. It's kind of difficult to explain. I don't want to fail at it. So if I don't do it, I can't fail. Because you haven't tried. So you haven't can't fail. However, I can't just yeah, I can't just not Darshna Patel: Okay. Avoiding the things that you Yeah. Rachel Evans: do it though, because you know, presenteism and I'm a hard worker and I'm determined. And these are all the things that I've learned about myself growing up. So I think subconsciously it was like, if I'm binging and purging, like I don't have the energy. I felt like a zombie at one point. Like I don't have the energy, Darshna Patel: Wow. Rachel Evans: I can't think properly, I can't go to uni. so for me it's st it when it was getting worse in terms of like more frequent, it kind of started out like I would go home at lunch and binge and purge, which was kind of an accident. It kind of actually started that I tried a different food that I didn't usually have and felt really bad about it and then made myself throw up. But then my brain was like, ping, you don't have to go back to uni if you're doing this. So for me that's how it was about avoidance, but it actually linked into everything else that I think about myself and what's going on. and so I really had to lower my standards in order to recover recover and be like actually if you Darshna Patel: That is crazy how these That is just crazy how these sneaky behaviors like creep in subconsciously, but we don't realize that, like, this is tied to avoidance or this is tied to that and whatever. so like how can women Rachel Evans: I mean and Darshna Patel: mm-hmm. Go ahead. Rachel Evans: Sorry, I was gonna say in terms of avoidance, it could be like, I d I haven't done it recently because I'm really super aware of it. but like for me avoidance as well could be like if I had an email to answer and it was like a bit of a tricky one for me to do or and then I would eat my dinner and then I'd be like, just have a spoon of peanut butter while I'm like making a cup of tea. And then if I'm going back for another one, like I mean If I'm hungry, if I want it, fine, sure, have it. But more if it's like the comfort eating, I'm like, actually, what is this really about? Like what what is it that I'm not doing now that I could be doing? I think as well, just to say other reasons in terms of comf comfort eating could be like loneliness. If you're in the house by yourself and you don't really know what else to do, there can be like so many reasons when you look into it. So like some of the first things that I do with clients is look like how is this helping you? sometimes people are like, What do you mean? I'm binging. It's like I really want to stop this or I want to stop eating that last bit of dinner. There is some way that that behaviour thinks it is adaptive for you. Whether it actually is in the is really or not, but like there is some purpose and reason that it's happening. Darshna Patel: Yeah, the benefit that you're getting out of it that your mind thinks it's like it's good. Yeah. Rachel Evans: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Darshna Patel: That is wild. my god. I'm thinking of all the times in the way that I eat and like just starting to like some of this advice that you've given is so helpful because I'm like now I'm gonna ask myself every time, am I actually hungry or what's going on? Cause I think that would be a great way for people to just start like stop those patterns and behaviors before they get into it. So a lot of the emotions are tied to shame and guilt, right? In the heart and the core of things or punishment. How can women start to love their bodies and what are some of the things that they can do? Like if you have any practical things or anything that they can start to work through to help shift those emotions? Cause emotions drive the behavior, right? Because even body dysmorphia is like a whole nother thing that can be tied to eating disorders and we are not even seeing what's actually real. Like our eyeballs are not even processing what's what's really there. Rachel Evans: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I think as well, just to like go off on a slight tangent, I think there's the guilt and shame related to food that I think if you loved your body more, I don't know if those things would just necessarily go away by themselves. And then I think there's a how you feel Darshna Patel: Wow. Rachel Evans: about your body is impacting how you're eating. so just on my own question that I've made up for myself first, because I think it's important, and then I'll go on to your question. in terms of that I do think like starting to tune into your body more and trying to ask like okay what is working for me? because like we said before, there is so much diet advice online and I I feel like a real light bulb moment for me in Darshna Patel: What's one of them? Rachel Evans: recovery. Well, when Darshna Patel: I'd love to know what's one of them that you like absolutely hate. Rachel Evans: well yeah, so basically when I was trying to recover, I was looking for a healthy gingerbread man recipe, quote unquote. and so I looked on one recipe and it's like, This recipe is healthy because it uses almond flour instead of normal flour. And I was like, Okay. And so I look on the next recipe and it's like, This recipe is healthy because it's low fat and I'm like, but the one with almond flour is not low fat and it's like, this one is healthy because basically like the exact opposites. of everything and Darshna Patel: I see. Rachel Evans: I was like, my god, there is no one healthy recipe. Like, what am I supposed to eat now? Like, do I just buy the one from the shop that's already there? Darshna Patel: I see. Rachel Evans: Do I try and make my own? And also then on a similar vein, I did I was vegan for for a few years. and so obviously when you're vegan you can't eat like fish or meat or you know dairy products. even though I did actually binge on them quite a lot while I was trying to be vegan. So then when I stopped being vegan and then I was like, I could do the whole thirty. But the whole thirty, you can eat salmon, which I like to eat, but you're not allowed to eat like green peas. I love green peas, like and then I was like r Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: feeling really restricted because I can't eat green peas. But actually what would be better for me is to eat salmon and green peas if I like those things and I feel okay eating them. so I think sometimes we give too much power away to a certain food rules. Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: and then we can feel a lot of shame. And also I think as well, when we're so fixated on food, we always think other people care far more than they do about what we're eating. Or we're thinking like, my friend's gonna judge me for eating this thing, but they're probably not, if they have a good relationship with food. So that's one side. The other side in terms of body image, I think the easiest thing that you can start doing is start thinking like, what do you appreciate about your body or what do you accept about your body? That isn't even weights because this is not good for like a podcast, so I kind of share it with my hands. so right now, if your body image was like a circle and like a big part of that circle is taken up with how you feel about your weight, it's almost like we're trying to expand the circle of your body image and think, okay, well, what else can we put in this circle? Actually, I really love my hair, for example. Like there are other good things about my body that aren't just. I mean your hair is kind of what you look like. I'm gonna send you a link to a blog post that I did about this and body appreciation because some of the things are like, do you know, if you have a cut and then the cut heals itself, isn't that amazing? Or like, I have a son, my body grew a penis. Isn't that amazing? Like how does my female body know know that? Like, you know, so yes. Darshna Patel: so you said it's not the same, like when it comes to our like the the shame and the guilt and then our body like image. So how is it separate when you're talking about like that? Rachel Evans: I th I was saying the shame and the guilt about food I feel can be different to the shame and the guilt about a body. And I think in terms of Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: our body, the shame and the guilt can come from, I guess, society's messages about, you know, maybe how many people you've slept with and then you start feeling shame about your body or, you know, experiences that your body has gone through with you and how you've been treated, or maybe not your body hasn't been respected in different situations. I think we can kind of take that on, but like transfer it to how we feel about how our body looks rather than looking like Darshna Patel: Mm-hmm. Rachel Evans: actually what is going on under here as well. Darshna Patel: So since it's separate, how does it end up like tying into food and how we feel shame and guilt around food? Because it seems like a lot of the shame and guilt we feel around food is tied to other things in our life. Rachel Evans: I take your point. So I think it's the I think it's connected in that obviously like if I don't like my body and I'm trying to control it and I want it to be a certain way, then what I eat, I'm like judging everything that I eat then because how is these things that I'm gonna eat impact my body? So then if I eat the wrong thing or my body isn't changing, then I might feel guilt or shame around Darshna Patel: Okay. Rachel Evans: what I've done about those things. But I'm just saying I think there's also a separate layer on I think there's one layer on both sides where they're connected. But then on each side, the food and the body, there are also separate things that can cause those emotions as well. And I think if you don't Darshna Patel: Okay, so Rachel Evans: address those, you might also not heal your overall relationship with food and your body. Darshna Patel: Yeah. So let's go into those because I think the I think I really want people to have like a strong foundation of how to cultivate a healthier relationship with food when it comes to their physical self-image, but then also when it comes to Rachel Evans: Mm. Darshna Patel: food. So like how because I know there's like we there's so many diets out there that we've talked about, like there's so many so much information that isn't always the right information for us because all our bodies are definitely different. So how can we start doing that for the physical body of like, let's say our goal is to lose weight? How can we eat for our goals in a healthy way and love our bodies at the same time as we go in this journey? Rachel Evans: good question. I think it can be really tricky to have a neutral relationship with food if you're always thinking, How is this food going to impact my body? I think if you haven't had an Darshna Patel: Mm-hmm. Rachel Evans: eating disorder and you're wanting to pursue weight loss, I think my Cautions or caveats would be like not want not expecting a quick fix. I think they're usually not a good route to go down. because you can and I think introducing self-compassion, looking how the diet rules, I wouldn't even call them rules to be honest. I would probably be like, these are guidelines. How can you make it a little bit more flexible to be like, right, it's my friend's wedding, I want, for example, like a few glasses of wine and I want some wedding cake. If you're like those are bad foods, they are forbidden, they are not allowed, you're gonna spend half the wedding fixated on the cake, not actually having a nice time, versus thinking, Okay, I wanna lose weight overall, but it's my friend's wedding. I'm gonna enjoy the cake. And actually I think when it's funny because when you have a more neutral relationship with food, actually you could have the cake if you want it and not have it if you don't want it. It's like not a big not a big deal. As when you're getting into that restriction mindset and you're putting that food on a pedestal. I think that's the tricky, tricky ground. So Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: I think for me it's when people start making all these rigid rules and then you're failing. And then also I think sometimes what people do that we haven't talked about is like you've broken the food rule. So now you eat all of that kind of food or all the bad foods because you're not gonna have them again tomorrow. Whereas if you just ate that thing that you were like, Well, I don't want to eat this all the time because I think it might make me gain weight, but you know, I've eaten it today because I don't know, someone bought my favourite chocolate into the office and I just had some that wasn't on the plan, but it's okay, I'll just move on, you're in a far better position than if you've taken Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: that situation really badly. And like I think it's maybe just that flexibility and understanding piece. Darshna Patel: I love how like everything always comes back to unconditional love and neutrality. Like all the things out there in the world, you know, even when it comes to food, like you just shared that like if you have a healthy relationship with food, and then you would just not feel anything towards it. Like you would you can have it or you cannot have it, like complete neutrality. And so that is the goal, right? For like a what a healthy relationship looks like from having Rachel Evans: Yeah, I mean caveats as well. Like I think I Darshna Patel: Ha ha ha. Rachel Evans: I do, yeah, we do use the term neutrality, but I don't think it's like you'll never like, yeah, I'm disappointed that my salad that I wasted ages for wasn't actually even that nice. To be fair, they did give me a lot of chicken, which I thought was pretty good, but like I was a bit disappointed Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: with that. Like, equally if I get like a really, really yummy, whatever it is actually, even if my god, my auntie has a fig tree. I don't know if anyone likes figs. Do you like figs? They are so good. They're like the best thing ever. Darshna Patel: smell of fig. I like it in perfumes. Like it smells really good. But I haven't had fig in a while. Or like something with fig, but not Rachel Evans: yeah, no, the like just fruit. Darshna Patel: eating fig itself. Rachel Evans: No. well if you get them off like fresh off the tree, they are so good. so like I can still be excited about the foods, but it's not gonna make break my break my day if I had something that was really yucky or really yummy. Like I can still Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: have emotions about them, but I'm just not so attached to that and not gonna hang on to that for the rest of the day. Like honestly as Darshna Patel: okay. Rachel Evans: well. Like, I mean I have actually bought up this salad, so maybe I'm not over it. Not over it yet. Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: but I feel like in the past as well, like if I'd have eaten something I thought was the wrong thing or I felt bad about, I would have thought about it for ages. Or like if I remember when I was undereating and my mum, I was living with my parents when I came back from Singapore. She was like, I'm gonna make this curry for dinner, and it's got this and that and the other. And I thought about that all day. Like I was a receptionist at the time. And I wasn't even doing my job properly because I was thinking, like, it's got this in, and I don't know if I can have it or not. Like I was so and I also broke up with my boyfriend because I couldn't go to brunch with his friends. Because I was like, what if the food comes out and it's not what I wanted and I have to pretend to be a normal person when this food is not right? So it's like the amount of space that food and body was taking up in my brain was just not proportionate. Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: so I suppose that's the only way I could describe it if you're thinking like No, I'm just on a diet, but actually that diet is becoming your life. Are you actually happy or not? Darshna Patel: man, you got me. You got me. I was, I mean, when I was Rachel Evans: Sorry. Darshna Patel: losing weight, I was doing that. But then I also think about like how you are restricting yourself. I think about myself or like I look forward to the next meal after I just ate. And like Rachel Evans: Yeah. Darshna Patel: I would just, and I think about that, or I think about like if I eat something and I allow myself to like have chocolate. I love chocolate. So I allow myself to have Rachel Evans: Mm-hmm. Darshna Patel: like stuff like that. But then I'll think about like, wait, is it gonna get me towards my goal or not? So what Rachel Evans: Mm-hmm. Darshna Patel: would you what would you say that is that stuff? Rachel Evans: I wouldn't necessarily Darshna Patel: Like what would you mean? Rachel Evans: say it's an eating disorder, like a textbook eating disorder at all. but I do think you're going walking towards disordered eating. Not that you're there, obviously I can't tell from a small conversation, but I think like I say, if it's taking Darshna Patel: Yeah, yeah. Rachel Evans: a lot of room in your brain, and like I was saying about the stress, anxiety, shame, if it feels like almost negative emotions, but Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: I I it's tricky, isn't it? Because I also think If it felt like a more neutral conversation, if you were like, yeah, okay, this chocolate isn't gonna get me to my goal, all right, okay, I'm not gonna have it move on, like you can have that conversation in a way that feels like you're having a conversation with yourself or like, this isn't fair, or I really want it and I'm depriving myself and denying myself and now I'm gonna go and eat five chocolate bars. Like it's a really s kind of a subtle difference in the conversation that you're Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: having with yourself. Darshna Patel: Yeah. I think when I think of like on a like an emotional level too, I think the overeating can stem into like not enoughness in a sense. Rachel Evans: Mm-hmm. Darshna Patel: when I think about it, because now like I'm hearing you tie in the emotions with it of you know, I'm not happy with what I have and I need more. And I can see how that can tie Rachel Evans: Mm-hmm. Darshna Patel: into that. pattern of like why that happens because that's been a big soul lesson for me in this lifetime is what I've been working on. Rachel Evans: you've just made me Yeah, like we haven't even talked about satisfaction. Because I think a big thing as well, like when Darshna Patel: Yes, let's talk about that. Yeah. Rachel Evans: you're restricting, whether that be a diet or like restrictive eating disorder, I think often with that as well, like there are a lot of these messages about like don't eat food that's indulgent, or like don't eat these certain kinds of food. And so it's like You might be enjoying what you're eating to a certain extent, but you're also kind of trip kidding yourself that you're actually enjoying chicken and broccoli like every day of the week. And so I think Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: sometimes actually what people are like, my god, I had a binge because they had a chocolate bar and maybe another chocolate bar, because actually you're not satisfied by what you're eating. Or maybe if as a woman you're eating really low fat, maybe if you added a little bit more oil to your meal, that would feel more satisfying and then you wouldn't feel like you need to go and overeat On the other thing. So I think it's really tricky. Like we haven't actually even talked about this piece. when I'm with working with clients, we work like really multidimensionally. So we are looking at the psychology, but we're also looking at the biology of what is going on in terms of like nervous system, but also in terms of like what they're eating and the impact that has on their body as well. Because I think sometimes when people are under eating and they're saying, why am I now having a binge? Because you're just really hungry and your body's like, please. give me some food or you might have seen like have you seen the hunger and fullness scale okay so basically Darshna Patel: No, I haven't. Rachel Evans: if you look up in or anybody look up intuitive eating hunger and fullness scale so it's kind of what you were saying earlier actually about if you're finishing that last bit on your plate it feels like it's pushing you to being bloated or feeling more stuffed so that's kind of one end of the scale like 10 would be like stereotypical Christmas day everyone's unbuttoning their pants or like really really full. zero is like starving hungry. So five is in the middle, kind of like neutral, like you're not really hungry, but you're not overly full. and so I think a lot of people, this is not true of everybody, but like if you have a pretty good relationship with food and if you're in a job or a situation where you can eat regularly if you wanted to, you'd probably go from like the five, maybe down to like a three or a two, and then you would be thinking like, Okay, I'm getting hungry, I'm gonna eat something. And then bumper yourself up to like, okay, I'm comfortably feel like I'm stopping now because I know I'm gonna have more later and you know it's fine. I don't think that's like the gold standard that everyone should aim for necessarily, because I think there are reasons why people might not be able to do that in terms of, like I said, their job or you know, availability of food or whatever. But if you're always basically if you think of it like a pendulum, if you're always pulling the pendulum back to a one and you're so hungry. It's actually a lot easier for that pendulum to then swing to being over full, overeating, because when we're hungry, we often eat quite fast, or the foods that we're eating might be more convenience foods. And then if you layer that on top of the shame, the guilt, it just makes everything way more complicated. so I think in that sense, dieting can be tricky because you might not think, I'm gonna have that food again. So you like we were talking earlier, you might think, I need to eat all of that now. but I sometimes think that. scale can kind of be a helpful visualization or just even like what you were saying about like the self-compassion piece or the understanding piece of like it makes so much sense why I would be eating this quickly now and overeating because I'm hungry and it's okay to be hungry. I think diets sometimes want us to be like a machine. I just eat what it says on your diet plan. But what if you're gonna be on your period or what if you know you've done a lot of extra working out today. Mm-hmm. Darshna Patel: Yeah. Yeah, that makes so much sense 'cause some days I'm hungrier than others. That makes a lot of sense because I'm I was so used to like three meals, two snacks, like kind of a a routine. But some days I'm hungrier than others. Like other days I'm barely hungry, so I'm not really eating. Rachel Evans: Yeah. Darshna Patel: So that's interesting. And I love that that satisfaction side too, because then I think about how like tying satisfaction into other areas of like the whole enoughness thing of like, is this enough? Do I have enough? Rachel Evans: Yeah. Darshna Patel: Like I can see how that trickles on to food. How can we start to like feel satisfied? Rachel Evans: I I think it's a bit of everything to be honest. I think there's like the physical satiation of the food, in terms of, you know, how it's tasting or the texture or something like I even noticed about myself when I was like eating more mindfully, like if I eat smooth peanut butter, it does not really do anything for me. I will like go back for another spoon and another spoon because it's like not hitting the spot. If I eat crunchy I'm like, this is really good. Like, I've really enjoyed this. And also the same with like an ice cream. If I have just an ice cream, I'm like, meh, not didn't really do it for me. If I have an ice cream with like you know, covered in chocolate with nuts on, then I'm like, yes, this I don't know if you Darshna Patel: Yes. Rachel Evans: call them Magnum. We call them Magnums. Magnum is like, yes, that has really hit the spot. And so I'm not like Saying I can never overeat, like sometimes I might want to overeat, that's fine, but it's more about like me learning actually what does satisfy me. I enjoy those I enjoy crunchy over just smoothie smooth bland. Darshna Patel: I actually love that because I've noticed myself, like I watch cooking shows a lot for fun, and I'll notice how they always pair something sweet with something savory or like something Rachel Evans: Okay. Darshna Patel: to balance out the entire dish. And there's so many different elements to it, and then I can see like when I do it in my food in my day-to-day, how something truly satisfies me versus something that doesn't. So I really love that you shared that because that's like a great little hack to start noticing like, are we actually satisfied? Cause I think that's probably gonna be like a great starting point to help us kind of neutralize our relationship with food and kind of get into that healthy Rachel Evans: Yeah. Darshna Patel: space of like, no, I'm good. Rachel Evans: Can I just say as well? Sorry, one more thing on the satisfaction. There's also psychological satisfaction. So I think sometimes, do you know, when we're trying to be good, quote unquote, and then we've Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: made like a healthy version of something, but then people are like, my God, why did I eat the whole pan of like banana, avocado, carob brownies or whatever you've put in them? Like, fine if you Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: Really I'm not dissing the brownies, like they might be really nice. But if you actually wanted like a salted caramel brownie and we're gonna just have it and enjoy it, to in my opinion, it's better just to have the brownie, enjoy it, move on. You're not gonna crave it every day because you can have it when you want it, versus I'm not saying never make a healthy alternative, like do if you enjoy it, but if you're always like not feeling satisfied by it, doesn't hit the spot to me there's something worth changing in that situation. Darshna Patel: Yeah. I love that. I love that. So it's like, because I tend to do that often of like, is there a healthier version of this though? Like I'd rather choose a healthier version. But sometimes the Rachel Evans: Yeah. Darshna Patel: healthier version doesn't hit the spot, like the regular thing. So I love that hack. amazing. my god, we're coming up in an hour, and I do value your time. So I do want to wrap this up and I really loved everything that we talked about today from satisfaction to kind of sifting through the differences between the shame and the guilt with food versus the body. Is there anything else that you do want to add on that we did not cover to kind of wrap this episode up? Rachel Evans: I think we covered a lot. Thank you for quizzing me about it. I've really enjoyed Darshna Patel: Yeah. I don't know that. Rachel Evans: this conversation. Yeah, and I suppose just for people, like if you are worried about your relationship with food, like I always think it's worth reaching out to somebody about it. Like you don't need to self-diagnose yourself with an eating Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: disorder, but to to me the marker of clients coming to work with me is like, do you think you could be happier if this changed or like healthier? Not Do you fit Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: this little box over here that is an eating disorder category? Darshna Patel: Yeah, and especially I still think it it would help with people going on a weight loss journey and like even dealing with that, especially someone like me that I have been on this journey in my life. I'm going on my third one this time and it's been it's been a roller coaster, but I definitely feel like a lot of tips and things that you've shared would be so helpful for me to implement and then also my audience. where can people find you? If someone feels like, you know, maybe this is like an issue that they do want to work on that they didn't know, that they weren't aware of. How can they connect with you and how can they work with you? Rachel Evans: yeah, so my Instagram is rachel.evans.ph. I'm gonna leave it as that because I'm not sure if I'm gonna change my website name to just to make things confusing for Darshna Patel: Okay. Rachel Evans: myself and other people. So my Instagram actually, my gosh, we did not even talk about tapping EFT. I think is that something that you do? Darshna Patel: Let's talk let's go there. Let's go. Yeah, let's talk about tapping. Cause I love tapping. I feel like that's one of the modalities that's really been effective in just getting my nervous system back to safety like instantly if I don't have anything else that I'm trying to do. Sometimes I'm not trying to do the mental stuff. Rachel Evans: Yeah, so I actually learnt about tapping when I did master practitioner and eating disorder training. Like it's not a tool that I had available to me when I was recovering. I kind of just had to like sit out the urges and and things like that. but like actually on the first of August, so 19 days ago, I launched a tapping vault. So like three recorded videos. it is specifically for bulimia recovery, but even if you don't like some of the videos are about the urge to purge. but I also did videos about guilt. Which is what made me just think about it, like guilt exploration tapping. So people can literally just follow along with me, in their own house and kind of tap on that and kind of see for them like where did this come from? and there's also one for if you're feeling guilty about food in the moment. Like I think it's just such a good tool to learn, isn't it? When those big feelings come up, I think often people don't know what to do apart from act on them, you know, if it's a binge. Like I was saying, like to me it felt like I am the urge. And I think Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: in recovery people you're starting to separate yourself out from it. Like you know your triggers, you know it's coming. But then I think a lot of people are like, I know this binge is coming, but I still don't know how to stop it. And I think tapping is such a good tool for that moment. Even if you then have the binge that day, it's not to say it will 100% work and you won't have it, but I think often it can just bring you down that little bit, can't you? It can just help you regulate a bit. It can help you see what's going on in the Darshna Patel: Bring the motions down. Rachel Evans: day. connect with actually no, I really don't want to do this because I really want to work on my health and, you know, going out with my friends Darshna Patel: Yeah. Rachel Evans: to eat or whatever your things are. So yeah, people can work with me one to one or they can work with me in the tapping vault as well. Darshna Patel: I honestly, guys, like I highly recommend it because I've experienced tapping on my own and I still do it time to time. And I think I talk about emotional mastery a lot and why emotions are key to like manifesting and everything. I still think EFT tapping has been one. I have a lot of other tools, but one of the best tools, like in the moment, to get your emotions down so that you can think. clearly, because then your brain just gets back online when you do. So I highly I'm so excited that you have that. I'm gonna be checking it out myself. because I think it's so important, especially for the guilt and the shame. Those are like the overarching emotions that really F women up and cause women to do all these crazy behaviors, especially when it comes to food, but also in life. So amazing. I'll link everything down in the description so that you guys can go check Rachel out. I had a fun time. I hope you did too. I will catch you guys in the next episode. Bye!