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5 - What Winning Really Looks Like for a Man · Masculine Containment

0:00
Welcome to episode five of the Masculine Containment Podcast.
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This episode is called, What Winning Really Looks Like for a Man.
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I was talking to my wife today, and she's been talking to a friend of hers that's been trying to tell her husband how she feels, and her husband keeps arguing with her, and trying to tell her that she's wrong, and giving her reasons why what she's saying isn't true, and telling her his perspective, but not really hearing her, and
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It made me remember when I was like this in my relationship.
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when Katie would say, hey, there's this thing that's bothering me, and then I would logic my way out of it, or I would tell her that that shouldn't be how she was feeling, or I would, I'm a great debater, I'd debate what she was saying instead of hearing her and seeing her and validating her.
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And I thought I was winning.
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I thought I had better points.
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I thought I had a better argument.
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I thought I had a better presentation of what was going on.
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I laugh because I'm embarrassed now that that's how I ever was.
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And so today I've been thinking about where does that come from?
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Where is that impression, that conditioning, that belief that we need to win as men?
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And so today I want to talk about what it really looks like to win as men and how we've been taught a way that maybe isn't that effective, maybe isn't that efficient, maybe isn't the best way.
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And this isn't a debate.
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You know, I know there's men that are going to listen to this podcast and they're going to say, you're wrong and I need to dominate, I need to win, that's who I am as a man, and that's okay.
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But...
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If you're a guy who maybe you know there's some things that aren't working out the way you want to in your life or you want them to in your life and maybe your relationship isn't going in the direction that you want it to and maybe you realize there's some disconnection with your wife or maybe you realize in other relationships there's some disconnection.
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this might be a different perspective that will really help you.
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And so let's talk about what it looks like to be conditioned as a man for what winning means.
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You know, I think for most of us, winning means having the upper hand, winning the argument, proving that you're right, dominating the interaction, coming out ahead energetically.
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I know for most of my life, that's what I believed.
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I believed that...
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If I had the better argument and I made more points and I could, you know, counter everything that the other person said in a way that sometimes was aggressive, sometimes was raising my energy, sometimes was really raising my energy, that I was winning.
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And that's because...
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That's how I was conditioned.
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You know, a lot of us have been conditioned that the model of winning is even if the room feels worse after the conversation, if we come out ahead, we won.
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Even if the other person walks away upset or shut down, we won.
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Even sometimes if it costs the relationship.
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We won.
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And I think there's a better way.
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The problem with this is this model of winning is everywhere.
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It's in like modern society all over the place.
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We see it in movies.
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We see it in books.
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We see it in the way that men are represented.
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It's part of competitive male culture.
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It's part of business culture.
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It's part of red pill culture for sure.
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It's even in our childhood family dynamics.
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You know, for me...
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I observed this my whole life growing up.
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I worked with my dad from a very young age, from way too young an age.
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Now that I'm an adult, I am an adult.
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I know that I started working way too young.
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I was about eight years old.
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And I used to watch my dad in business conversations and business transactions.
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And when he wasn't getting what he wanted, he would often become stern and he'd raise his voice and he'd dominate the interaction.
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And sometimes he'd even overwhelm the other person.
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And from the outside looking in, it often looked like he got what he wanted.
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But even as a kid, I could tell that something wasn't quite right because what was happening, I could see, right?
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was it oftentimes the other person would shut down, they'd stop pushing back, they would give him less than they might have otherwise.
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And what I even understood as a child sometimes was that they weren't agreeing, they were retreating.
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But that was the model of winning that I absorbed growing up.
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Even though I could see that it wasn't actually working,
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I grew up with it, so I carried it into my adulthood.
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And I remember seeing it not working, but then I started doing the same thing.
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Because here's the hidden cost of winning that way.
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Here's the hidden cost of winning through domination.
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When winning means domination, it means relationships are battlegrounds.
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It means conversations are competitions.
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It means arguments become something that you defeat rather than what you resolve.
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And unfortunately, that's how I was conditioned.
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Like most of us, that's how I was conditioned.
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You know, I used to think you can win the argument, you can win the moment, you can get an immediate result.
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But what I know now is that I was quietly damaging the relationship.
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You know, I was winning, often winning the moment and losing the relationship.
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I remember a personal story, like a story when my wife and I were running our real estate company.
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We had a company or we had a partner company in our real estate education business.
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This was a company that did referrals and we did some work with them.
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And it was a really productive relationship.
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We both made a lot of money.
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Their company and our company made a lot of money.
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And there was a point where it got to where they owed us close to $75,000.
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And they were having trouble paying us.
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They were a couple months behind.
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And the VP who I worked with, we actually had built a pretty close relationship.
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We had helped each other.
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I'd helped his company.
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He'd helped my company.
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We both really benefited from it.
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There was trust built.
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There was a relationship built.
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And there was this point where I looked at how much money they owed us.
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And I remember I looked at it the day before I was going to talk to him and I started getting triggered.
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I'm like, this is too much money.
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They need to pay us.
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They're behind.
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They're doing the wrong thing.
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I need to win.
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And the next day I got on a call with him before he flew out for a meeting that we had.
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And instead of being contained, instead of understanding what was happening on his side, instead of staying in my body and having a conversation and bringing it to a resolution,
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I'm ashamed to say I lost it.
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I raised my voice.
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I yelled at him.
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I told him that they weren't treating us right and that they weren't acting fairly and that if he didn't have a check, he shouldn't even come out.
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And I was frustrated and I pushed hard.
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I pushed him really hard.
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And what happened in that moment, I can remember now.
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He stopped talking.
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His voice tone changed.
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It went from like a connected voice tone to almost a disassociated voice tone.
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He told me he was going to take care of it.
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And when he arrived at the office the next day, he actually had a check for me.
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And in that moment, I'm like, hey, I won.
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And I even went and talked to some of the other leaders in my company.
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I'm like, hey, I got the check.
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And they're like, yes, we won.
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I got validated for this type of behavior.
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But here's what I know now when I look back at that situation.
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It's hard to admit, but...
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The relationship completely changed.
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You know, I had this moment of uncontainment.
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I had this moment of intimidation.
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I had this moment of dominance.
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I had this moment of really overpowering him and overpowering him in a relationship that previously had felt safe and previously had built trust.
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And when I look back now, over the next six months to a year after that incident, we got less support from that company.
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We got fewer referrals.
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We did less business together.
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There was less collaboration.
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He actually avoided doing business with me.
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I could feel it.
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And I won the moment, but I lost the relationship.
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And the long-term cost to my company was way more than anything I gained in that interaction.
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And I can look at it now, you know, in hindsight, which is 2020, and know that that's what happened.
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And when I rewrite it in my head and I think about what would have happened if I showed up to that conversation contained and I was really clear with him that, hey, we need to get paid and I need to understand when we're going to get paid and how we're going to get paid and I didn't lose it.
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I probably could have gotten the same result without damaging trust and without losing what was really an important relationship to us.
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And here's what that revealed to me.
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And not all at once and right away, it took time.
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I'm a slow learner sometimes.
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But here's what I learned is that masculine containment provides a different definition of winning.
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Winning's not domination.
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You don't have to dominate to win.
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Winning's stabilization.
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Winning's regulation.
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Winning is presence, being in your body.
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And I realized something powerful.
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You don't have to overpower the environment to win.
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In fact, when you stabilize the environment, when I stabilize the environment, when I slow things down,
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When I'm in my body, when I'm clear with someone, when I'm direct with them without being intimidating, when I'm clear with them without being over the top, when I bring appropriate energy to a situation, I don't become the problem.
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I always tell men, if you bring too much energy to solve a problem, you actually become the problem.
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And when the environment stabilizes, I know now, people stay open.
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conversations stay productive or become more productive.
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Collaboration becomes even more possible.
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And that's where better outcomes in our life and our business actually come from.
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You know, in the brotherhood, we have a law of relationship.
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We have 12 laws, and one of them is the law of relationship.
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We build our lives from our relationships.
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And I know how important that is now, how crucial relationships are now.
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They really are responsible for most of my success.
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And when you look at it for us as men, everything really meaningful in life comes through our relationships, our marriages, our friendships, our partnerships, teams, clients, communities, the people that we work with, the people around us.
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If your definition of winning is constantly damaging relationships, and by the way, I'm not saying this with blame.
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I'm not.
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And I'm not saying this to shame you.
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I'm not because I've been there.
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I'm saying this to give you a different perspective.
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That if your definition of winning damages a relationship, if your definition of winning wins the moment but damages the relationship over time, then your definition of winning is quietly damaging your life.
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And I know this because I've shifted and I look back
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And I know how often I damage relationships, which damage my life.
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They damage my business.
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They damage my stability.
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They damage my ability to interact with people.
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Containment actually protects the relationship.
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It allows you to win in a way where you don't damage things.
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And when the relationships stay intact and they get stronger, because containment actually strengthens relationships even when there's conflict.
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And when you do this, when the relationship stays intact, the opportunities in your life multiply.
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One of the places where I learned this most clearly was in work relationships.
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You know, I've talked about containment a lot in our primary relationship with our partner, with the person who we're with every day.
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But containment carries over into everywhere in our life.
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I've been a business owner since my late teens, and I've had hundreds of employee relationships.
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One of the hardest things that I used to do in leadership was to terminate a relationship to fire somebody.
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It was hard for me.
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It was so hard.
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That when somebody needed to be terminated, the way I would get over the difficulty of ending the relationship would be to get frustrated with them, to get angry with them, to like build up all this energy around how I was justified in terminating them.
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And I resented them when I was terminating them, even people that I had good relationships with.
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So embarrassed to say this now, but maybe my embarrassment and my past mistakes will help you move forward in a different way.
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Because termination conversations were often tense.
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They were almost always confrontational.
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And unfortunately, from my side, they were always emotionally charged.
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You know, what I know now is someone getting terminated, a job ending, is like a big event in someone's life.
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It's a traumatic event just in the fact that they're getting terminated.
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I didn't have to bring any extra energy to the situation to make it more challenging for them.
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And so instead of ending relationships with dignity, I often ended them damaged.
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And the results were pretty terrible, you know.
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Yeah.
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There was resentment on the other side.
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We often got negative reviews online, some of which when I read, I'm like, I know that happened and I feel terrible.
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Former employees used to criticize our company.
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In fact, sometimes former employees would get together and criticize our company.
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So there was like people actively, energetically against our business just because we ended an employment relationship with them.
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It destroyed relationships with people who once respected us, who respected me, who respected Katie, who respected the company, who learned a lot in our company.
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And so what ended up happening was I had this short-term solution to terminate someone, but it created massive long-term relational damage.
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When I shifted to containment and stabilization, everything changed.
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When I started approaching these conversations with containment, it made things so much better.
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Instead of escalation, I would approach it with calm clarity.
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Instead of blame, I would have direct communication.
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And I would explain like, hey, here's where the company is.
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Here's what we need.
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Here's what we need.
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This is why it's not working.
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And I want to make something very clear.
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It's not you.
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It's not us.
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It's that this situation isn't working out.
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And you're still important to me.
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And oftentimes I would even end the relationship and help them find another job.
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I'd end the relationship with dignity.
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Sometimes I'd even help them find their next role.
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And that changed everything in my businesses.
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The outcome was completely different.
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Instead of resentment, there was continued respect, a continued relationship.
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Instead of them being cut off, it was continued connection.
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And sometimes there was even unexpected support.
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One example, especially now that I'm doing the work with the Brotherhood, really stands out.
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We had an employee who, actually a VP of marketing, who was really good.
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And the situation just wasn't working out.
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As a company, we didn't need his skills anymore.
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We were going in a different direction.
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I knew he would be better off somewhere else.
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It didn't make sense for us to continue to invest in him.
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And so instead of having an uncontained, over-the-top, like, here's where you're out of here, here's why you're out of here conversation, I sat down with him and had a really clear, contained conversation.
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I said, hey, here's where you are.
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Here's where we are.
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This is where we're going.
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I don't really think we need your skills anymore.
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And he agreed.
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And we kind of, I mean, it wasn't necessarily a mutual decision because I brought the decision to the table.
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But by the end of the conversation, he was in agreement with me.
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And we left that conversation and got up and hugged and shook hands and talked about how we both really wanted to stay in contact.
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And things absolutely shifted.
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You know, it was one of the first times I can remember terminating someone that way with dignity, with containment, with respect.
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groundedness and with care.
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And here's what happened.
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Instead of resentment and him going and talking bad about us, he often referred customers to us.
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And he continued to support what we were building.
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Sometimes he would reach out and say, hey, I got this email from you guys, and you could have done this, or you might want to look at this.
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And so he continued like really supporting our company.
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And eventually...
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he joined the container of the Brotherhood that's happening right now.
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And he and I still stay in contact.
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And as part of the Brotherhood, he actually wrote an entire email and a plan and sent me a loom video of what he thought I could do to make this organization better.
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It's a completely different outcome.
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And it makes me feel so much better that I did that and that I learned this and that I changed the way that I approach these conversations.
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And so winning used to look like I got through the termination conversation.
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Winning now looks like I got through the termination conversation, but we agreed and we're friends and we're still supporting each other.
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Because as a man, here's what winning actually looks like, regardless of what we've been taught.
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Here's what I believe winning looks like.
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Looks like being the calmest man in the room.
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You know, people always say, the calmest man in the room is the one who wins.
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I always share that with people.
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But actually being the calmest man in the room is winning.
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And knowing you can resolve conflict instead of escalating it is winning.
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Creating safety so that people bring their best to you, so that they tell you what's going on, so that they communicate clearly with you, so that they tell you when there's a problem, that makes things so much easier.
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Before I learned how to contain myself, before I learned how to do these things, I learned how to do these things.
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I used to be surprised all the time.
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I would find out problems were there, and I was always the last to know, because people were afraid to approach me.
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And now I'm being, you know, I'm trusted.
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I'm seen as a resource.
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People come to me when things are difficult.
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They leave feeling more clear, not feeling triggered, not feeling shut down, not feeling suppressed.
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Not because I had all the answers, but because oftentimes through containment and through talking to somebody and having a conversation and leading with curiosity, I help them find their own answers.
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You know, power for a lot of us looks like blowing up and being able to dominate a conversation.
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But real power is helping people come to conclusions and helping people understand and helping people stay connected to you.
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And the ultimate test of this is in your primary relationship.
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The example that I started this podcast with.
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The deepest place, the definition of money shows up is in your primary relationship.
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And this is one of those areas where I had the most work to do.
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Like I said at the beginning, I'm a little ashamed, a little embarrassed to share this.
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I'm on the other side now, so it makes it a lot easier, makes it less vulnerable.
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But in all honesty, I used to look at arguments with my wife as something that had a winner and a loser.
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In fact, sometimes I would look at discussions I had with my wife as something that had a winner and a loser.
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And I always felt that if I could logically prove I was right, I won.
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If she brought something up that triggered her, if she brought something up that was upsetting her, I would often explain why it shouldn't be a trigger or why she was wrong.
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I would be rational.
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Rational.
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I thought I was solving the problem.
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And if something triggered me, I felt completely justified in escalating.
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Like, I want to make this clear.
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Because it's such an important point for us as men.
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If I felt like there was a trigger in our relationship, I felt like I was righteously justified in escalating the conversation.
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If I expressed frustration, if I brought more energy to it, if I raised my voice, if I really strongly pushed back, in my mind, it was dignified.
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In my mind, it was okay.
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It was justified.
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It was justified.
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Because I was right, or at least I thought I was right.
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This was something that I learned growing up.
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This was something that I learned watching my dad.
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This was something that I learned watching the men around me.
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What I didn't understand that I now know with every cell in my body is that every time I did that, I wasn't winning a conversation, I was damaging our relationship.
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Not intentionally, it wasn't on purpose, but consistently over and over again.
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Today, my definition of winning in those moments is completely different.
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If my wife's upset about something, I seek to understand.
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I lead with curiosity, not judgment.
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I stay in my body.
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I don't raise my voice.
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I never raise my voice with my wife anymore.
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There's no need.
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Raising my voice is just triggering her inner child and putting her into a defensive position.
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If she's already upset, I'm just making it worse.
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And being logical and telling her why she's wrong and telling her why I'm right and explaining it away is just invalidating everything about her.
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And really invalidating her feelings in that moment.
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And today, if something triggers me, and it still happens, like nothing's perfect.
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In the brotherhood, we always say progress over perfection.
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There is no such thing as perfection.
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And pursuit of perfection will drive you crazy.
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So if something triggers me these days, I have a totally different way to deal with it.
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A way that is infinitely more productive.
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A way where I'm actually seen and heard.
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A way where my wife understands me and she responds in a way that she actually helps that trigger not come back again.
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So here's what I do now.
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Instead of getting my argument together and raising my voice and making sure I won, I slow down.
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I slow way down.
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I breathe.
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I sit with the trigger and I understand where it's coming from.
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I get calm.
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I get grounded.
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I stay in my body.
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And I communicate in a way with my wife that she can actually understand what's going on for me.
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And she can hear.
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And even if she gets initially defensive, because sometimes that happens.
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Sometimes I get calm and I'll say, hey, here's this thing that's really bothering me.
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And she'll defend.
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She'll say that's not what she meant.
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Or she'll explain it away.
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And I stay grounded.
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And I stay grounded.
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I stay present.
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I keep explaining where I'm coming from clearly.
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If I have to, I say the same thing again.
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And instead of escalation, instead of that pattern that we talk about of trigger, escalation, then rupture and withdraw and coming back to repair, I never let that happen.
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Instead of escalation, instead of rupture, instead of withdrawing and damaging and...
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Coming back to repair later, it ends with her understanding where I'm coming from because I'm not dominating the moment and I'm staying calm and I'm staying present and I'm not giving her anything to react to.
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If I'm calm and grounded, she can't continue to escalate forever.
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She can't continue to, like, explain it away forever.
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I just stay in my body and stay calm.
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And we don't trigger the pattern so many of us have from our childhoods, from our histories, from our trauma of, hey, there's a thing that I'm upset about, so let's just escalate and blow it all up.
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Because I stay regulated, I'm not.
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Because I stay grounded, there's nothing for her to react to.
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There's nothing for her to come against.
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And it's a completely different definition of winning.
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You know, these days when I'm triggered about something, I don't see it as something I need to go fix immediately.
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I don't see it as something I need to react to.
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I don't see it as something I need to dominate and overcome and make sure it never happens again.
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I actually see it as an opportunity to make our relationship stronger.
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Think about that.
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Triggers typically lead to escalation, rupture, withdraw, and then some form of repair that we know never really works.
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Or maybe it does for some people, but it didn't work in my relationship.
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And now a trigger is an opportunity for me to have a clear conversation with my wife and for me to sometimes create boundaries and for me to sometimes really express what's going on for me in a way that she can hear.
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And for me to show her that there can be a problem in our relationship and it doesn't have to be a problem with us.
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And, you know, there can be an issue in our relationship.
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It doesn't have to create an explosion between us.
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That's a completely different definition of winning.
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You know, I tell men all the time, when you practice masculine containment, you will be seen, heard, and validated in a way that you never have before.
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And these days when there's a trigger, I feel that almost every time.
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I can't remember the last time I didn't feel it because...
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If something is bothering me and I'm willing to sit down with her and stay contained and calm and explain it to her, even if she reacts initially, eventually she understands and then behavior changes.
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I don't win an argument and then the behavior keeps happening.
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I have a conversation with her where she understands.
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She sees me.
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She hears me.
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Eventually she validates what I'm saying and then the behavior changes.
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You know, as men, the world teaches us to chase dominance.
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Dominance.
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The world teaches us that every trigger, every conflict is an opportunity to win.
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And the world teaches us that winning is escalation and energetic violence and overcoming the situation.
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And if you really sit with that, you'll know that that's true.
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But here's what I now know.
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Masculine containment teaches men to embody stability.
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Masculine containment has taught me to embody stability.
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And the more stable I am, the more often I get the result I want in a shorter period of time without expending as much energy.
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Without getting out of my body and getting frustrated and getting triggered and becoming unaware and disassociated, but staying right there present, containing my energy, not spilling it out all over the place, containing my...
24:45
or containing the situation in a way that doesn't allow it to escalate.
24:49
And the truth is, the reality is that the calmest man in the room does usually win.
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And since I've become that man, I can't remember a time where I lost.
24:59
And instead of dominance meaning winning, stability and clarity and behavioral change is where real winning lives.
25:07
The calmest man in the room wins, not because he dominates,
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not because he overpowers, not because he creates fear, but because people trust him.
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And I know that now.
25:20
I know that when I'm contained, when I'm in my body, I create trust.
25:24
I create more strength in the relationship.
25:26
I create more connection in the relationship.
25:29
And when there's another conversation to have, I know I've already built so much reputational trust, so much reputational clarity that conversations are easier and they just continue to get easier.
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This is what winning really looks like for us as men.
25:46
If you'd like to be able to apply this to your life, if you'd like to be able to understand masculine containment in a way that it makes everything in your life better, not just your primary relationship, that will improve dramatically.
25:57
But if you want to make the relationships with your kids better, the relationships with people at work better, if you're a business owner, you want to make relationships with your team better.
26:03
You want people around you to communicate what's really going on, to trust you.
26:07
You want to stop being surprised by problems and know that they're coming before they actually occur.
26:11
Yeah.
26:12
You don't have to do this work alone.
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I founded an organization called The Brotherhood, and we have a container coming up where we teach men masculine containment.
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You can do this in a group of men.
26:22
You can learn this discipline.
26:24
You can learn these life skills, these tools, in a way that will change everything in your life.
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And I'd be honored to walk this path with you.
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If you go to thebrotherhoodsociety.com, you can sign up for the wait list for our next container, and I'd be honored to meet you, to have you in the brotherhood, and to help you understand how masculine containment can change everything in your life.
26:46
And I'm saying this from a fully embodied place because it's changed everything in my life.
26:51
Thanks for listening today.
26:52
Please subscribe.
26:54
Leave a comment.
26:55
I read every single one of them myself.
26:57
And again, if you're ready to do this work and you want support and you want to do it in a group of extraordinary men from all over the world, from all different walks of life, who will hold you in contained masculine energy and vulnerability, truth, and trust, go to thebrotherhoodsociety.com.
27:13
I look forward to meeting you.