Latest / Messy Minded Mama / Episode 22 - Resilient, But at What Cost?

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Episode 22 - Resilient, But at What Cost? · Messy Minded Mama

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Messy Minded Mama, a podcast for moms who look managed but might feel a bit messy on the inside.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Kate.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Jen.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we are here creating space for real talk about motherhood, mental health, and the invisible load so many women carry.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Messy Minded Mama for season two.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think we can call it season two.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: We took a pause there for a little while because life was lifey.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we were busy back to school and travels and shout out to Tyler for his hundred-mile Leadville race.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, hundred-mile effort, and he did it, and it was amazing.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: But now we are truly settling back into a little bit slower-paced life, I'll say.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was needed the break of not just podcasts, but trying to get into the slower season after the start of school feels like chaos.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I know we talked about it in our last episode.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're finally at a point where I feel like things are leveling for all of the school.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: But it's hard.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Which brings us to our topic for today, actually.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I am so excited about this topic.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: We are gonna talk about resiliency.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: What that looks like for us, what that looks like kind of in general, I think, in motherhood.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: I do feel like this word resilient gets thrown around a lot.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: When we talk about moms in particular, and it's this thought of moms can kind of handle anything or moms can figure it out.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: And today we really want to dive into that deeper and maybe get to like the why, why behind this.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: What have our experiences of resiliency looked like?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: How has it maybe reshaped or how are we reframing it as we've gotten into motherhood more over the years and experienced it more over the years?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just I love this topic.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've been spending a lot of time thinking about this personally for myself, and I'll I'll share with you guys a little bit today about just my journey and kind of how I've reframed it, but happy just to give this a little bit of space today.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm really excited too.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: And a conversation we had when we were prepping for this episode was we've also kind of reached this point in our life, and maybe there's this piece of reaching it in our age, I don't know, where you hit this point of like, I'm not going to do things anymore just for the sake of doing them.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to do things that have meaning to me.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm pretty sure we called it our effort era.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we did.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that goes into some of this conversation of we're not just enduring anymore, we're intentionally choosing how we want to show up and live life.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: But that resiliency piece is under there.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, what society tells us we should, what we tell ourselves, we should, and I hate the word should, I've talked about that before.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: But that goes into why we feel we have to be resilient.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: So when we say resiliency, what does that mean for you?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a lot of things.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's like the pre what you just said of like getting into this era of where we can maybe release ourselves from having to feel like we need to say yes to everything.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think before that, resiliency for me did look like showing up for everyone and for everything, right?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And being able to really do what they say is like pushing through it all.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if I wasn't doing that, then maybe I wasn't resilient enough.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's that version, and then now what you just said resonates so much because resiliency didn't go away just because we decided to say like no to certain things or that we didn't have to take it all on.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually us paying attention to ourselves more and using resiliency as like our superpower almost to be able to say, no, I'm gonna protect myself in these ways.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that noticing what's going on with us, noticing what we need, paying attention to it all.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is like the beauty in resiliency that isn't talked about.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think there's this point in my life of like the shift of the before I really understood that and the after I understand that.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And resiliency didn't ever go away.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's still there.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just looking at it so differently now.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: I I think resiliency is usually treated like a compliment, and it absolutely can be.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: But sometimes when people say, Oh my gosh, you're so resilient, what what they could mean is you've learned how to function without enough support.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: You've learned that you can handle something and you just keep doing it without stopping to ask why.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: And when I hear a resilient mom, I picture the mom who keeps everything moving no matter what is happening internally.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone is fed, everyone gets where they need to go, the work is done, nobody realizes how much it's costing her or you if that resonates with you.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think there is a difference in knowing that I can handle something and deciding I should continue to handle it.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: I know I can do hard things.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: The problem is, is I use that as evidence that I should keep doing things that aren't working for me.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's been instilled in me that you just keep going.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, life can knock you smack down, and I would get right back up because that's what resiliency meant.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Meant.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: But now I think it also means like, should I keep getting back up into the exact same situation?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: What is the cost of that?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I love what you just described as like the compliment.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're getting praised for never saying no almost when you're called resilient.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, that's not fair, right?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like we should be able to make those choices for ourselves and not necessarily be praised for just being the one that keeps pushing through.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that, yeah, that is, I think, what people mean when they're saying, like, you're so resilient.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it is a compliment in a lot of ways of look how strong you are.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: It is a strength.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: It is something we should build.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: But what are people saying when they say you're resilient?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: And what does it mean to you?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think is where we have to pause.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Is resiliency meaning I just roll with the punches every time and don't stop to consider the cost because I have to keep going because I feel like I have to.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's like that machine driving.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Or can we be resilient and still say no?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Can we be resilient and protect our peace?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: Can we be resilient and not neglect our own needs?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think we can.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can too.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we have been learning over time maybe how to do it differently.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe we talk a little bit about that.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like when we think about resilience in our own journey through motherhood.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe you kick us off if you want to.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a moment or like a season that you can think of that comes to mind?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think this last year for me was a place I really had to explore some ideas around what resiliency means to me and where I really had to experience it.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: I had a pretty significant back surgery a year ago, a year and a month ago.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I had a lower back fusion.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: I physically could not meet my own needs, much less my children's needs than that.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had to think about resilience, resiliency differently.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: I had to look at when was I surviving by overriding myself, maybe?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: When did I need to stop and ask for help?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: And from the outside, it might have looked like resilience because I pushed myself to recover fast, probably faster than I should have, because I'm not a patient person.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be able to do things by myself.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact that I couldn't meet other people's needs, mostly my kids, that was hard for me.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember a moment where I realized I was technically doing everything and I was in so much pain.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: My daughter had one of her first horse shows a couple weeks after my surgery.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I pushed myself to get up and go.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: How resilient.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's what people say, right?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: How strong are you?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you pushed yourself.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Good job.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: And to a point, yes.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember being uncomfortable and being in pain and but not wanting to not show up for her.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was important to her.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was important to me.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I kept things moving, but I wasn't really okay.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: I was functioning.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a difference in I was functioning at the most basic level to I was actually feeling well and showing up in my my best way.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's just a lot of where I had to learn that changing my mind about what resiliency means or stepping away from something or saying, I'm I'm sorry, I have to rest.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mommy can't go for the walk.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: Mommy can't do whatever it is, or you you cannot come up here and snuggle with me because I hurt.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: I that was something that I really struggled with because to me it was proof that I failed.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Every time I said I couldn't, yeah, was failure to me.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I actually had to listen to what my experience was telling me and what my body needed.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when I actually started healing.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that to me is the resiliency is listening to ourselves, celebrating the small wins.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of celebrating that I went to my daughter's horse show, I celebrated that I walked to the corner, right?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: With my walker, right?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it's, I think that for me is is the moment of where I really had to shift what it meant.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that asking for help and slowing down and paying attention to my own needs and my body and my anxiety even was resilience.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't just pushing through.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and what you described in this like pressure to kind of show up, you're sacrificing your recovery, right?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Your own well-being and everything that you really needed in those moments.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like if we could pause in those moments and say, this is worth it now, because the rest, the recovery, the taking care of my physical health is going to allow me to show up better after I'm feeling better, right?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: After I'm healed, after I'm on the other side of this.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't pause often enough to really notice that and be able to listen to that.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like you did at some point, right?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: But it takes the showing up and being like, what am I doing here?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Why am I doing this to myself?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that really was eye-opening.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that happens a lot, right?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: That happens to any one of us in situations like you're describing.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Of sometimes it takes us doing like almost the wrong thing to really have this experience to open our eyes to, okay, well, next time.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where we learn and grow, right?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there's nothing bad in what you did, but being able to notice and pay more attention to it for the future is so important and so key.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's that idea of the 1% progress, right?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: Of like I was striving for, I'm gonna be healed and I'm gonna be great, and almost that perfection piece when really it was what progress can I make at a 1% level?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because that adds up every day.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: But you have to stop, pause, and check in of what's the cost here, and am I willing to keep giving that cost to be strong, to be resilient?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: You can't see me, but I'm doing air quotes.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think there is a cost that endurance when we when we wreck when we feel like endurance is resilience, that's not necessarily healthy, I think.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Resilience is not enduring, it's living in a way in an alignment.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious too.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: You talked about kind of like this failure or this thought of failure that it sounds like you're putting on yourself solely.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe again back to like lessons learned.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is there anything if that's popping up for you in the future, like ways that you would manage that differently or just shut that down maybe quicker?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's I like to be a perfectionist in a lot of ways.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: I like to do well, I take a lot of pride in it.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually had a kiddo in my camp, uh, the summer camp that I was running, who said to me, Mistakes are just your brain growing.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it took brilliant, it took a 10-year-old to tell me this.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like I was like, Yes, mistakes are my brain growing.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I think about failure or I'm not meeting what goal I set for myself, there's frustration there.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: There always is going to be, but I try to remind myself again of that progress piece of I'm not failing.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm intentionally choosing another path.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Or sometimes failure because we have things we fail at because we're human, sometimes it forces us to think about things in a different way.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've been really intentional about how I choose to heal or how I choose to show up or what things I'm giving my energy to.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: And when it's coming at that, and maybe I don't meet my goal, then I'm trying not to look at it as failure instead of like where am I maybe making progress?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if that's the right way to do it, but that's what's helped me.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: So well, I love that 10-year-old showing up same.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Give those insights, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: I know she's brilliant.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: We should have her come on and talk.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: What about for you?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: When when you think about resiliency, what have your experiences been that have kind of shaped this shift in how you think about it?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I also have a bigger moment that was tied to physical health.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism, Hashimoto's about four years ago now, probably.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And as I think back on that season of life, like it all feels very clear now.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: But in the moments, it's like, oh my gosh, the things that I did not do for myself leading up to that, and then what I have learned after that diagnosis and coming out was really this big shift for me.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: So a little backstory, my son was probably about a year old, and I I could feel like this lump in my throat and felt like something doesn't feel good, something feels off.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: I should get into the doctor.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Shortly after that, I think I got pregnant again, and then I was tired because I was pregnant, and then I had my baby girl, and so then I had like two under two, and I still kind of noticed this thing in my throat, but I didn't really pay attention to it anymore.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was just like this thing that I kind of put off to the side.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I was super tired all the time.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: I had anxiety like crazy.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I had so many of these symptoms that were definitely my thyroid, like it's it helps your body function in more ways than you even know until you don't have one that's functioning.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of excused everything away as well, this is why I'm tired because pregnancy and young kids and all the things.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't go to the doctor for, I don't know, maybe at least two years or two and a half years, and actually got it checked out.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason I was on a lot of Zoom calls and I noticed my throat looked swollen because it was COVID time and we had to do a lot of Zoom calls for work that I wasn't used to doing.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Working remotely, noticed my throat was swollen.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, there is something going on, I need to go in.
• 15:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I was gonna be grateful to COVID for things, but I didn't know.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: It got me to the doctor.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: It got you to the doctor.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, I need to go.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Why did I wait so long?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then at that point I was like terrified, yeah, that it was thyroid cancer or something a little bit more serious going on with me.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thankfully it wasn't, but my thyroid function was at 0%.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not, I don't just have like my thyroid needs a little bit of help.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: My thyroid no longer functions and will never function again.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And when I look back, I think this is the biggest piece for me that taught me to look at resiliency differently because I spent so much of that time before I went to the doctor just pushing through and excusing it away and saying, like, I know I'm tired, but I need to get up today and I need to do all the things.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew I had this feeling in my throat, but I never did anything with it.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I just ignored all these symptoms that were like screaming at me at that point in time and just kind of excused it away for all these things that I thought were true.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And coming out of it, I mean, I still kick myself of if I would have gone in sooner, maybe I could have caught my thyroid right in a little healthier phase and um not have, you know, not have to deal with it being a zero percent for the rest of my life.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: But long story short, I learned so much about how to notice things in my body, how to actually like focus on myself and my own self-care and pay attention to these little signals that your body, your mind, everything is sending you and the benefits that can come out of that once you actually know what's going on.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on medication now, I will be on medication for the rest of my life, but I feel so much better, right?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because now the medication is helping me have, you know, it's replacing my thyroid hormones.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm able to not feel so tired.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm able not to, my anxiety is manageable, right?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: There's like all these things that have gotten so much better as a result, but I still live with it, and there's still like I still have to manage that medication and make sure I'm on track with it all.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: So big like moment that shifted a lot for me.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I, you know, I just wish that I would have given myself a little bit more attention, I guess, yeah, way earlier than I did.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: It would have changed a lot, I think, for me.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that scan, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Of if we think of ourselves as like a car dashboard, where's your truck engine light on?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: But do we ever stop enough to actually pause and give ourselves that scan, right?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: We get moms, not just we, like humans, moms.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: We get praise for being able to operate while depleted.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: And you just said, I'm tired, but I have to get up anyway.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: I've been so sleep-deprived, I haven't sleep slept in three days, but I'm gonna go to work and I'm gonna crush that meeting.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna get up and I'm still gonna make the craft or do whatever.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we get praise, and it is a strength that we can do it, yeah, but we're also not pausing to say, Why am I still doing this?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: We have to go to work.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: I get that.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and if we just keep saying, well, it's just normal now, I just don't sleep forever and ever and ever, which that's I've been there, you've been there.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: We just don't sleep, so that's our norm, and we just keep pushing, we don't actually interrupt the cycle and nothing changes.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we are resilient because we just keep going.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: But that definition of resilience is the enduring part and not the alignment part.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I love what you said about checking in.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: I noticed the symptoms, my body was screaming at me, but I put all these other needs first.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where we are like high functioning but still struggling.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's being it's like putting it aside for a little bit, and I can put this on the shelf.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, at what point do we look at things that are going on with ourselves and say, no, that needs to come off the shelf and be taken care of now?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And really do reprioritize and put ourselves first in any way.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't just have to be the physical health.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many things I can think of that we put our own selves, as women, as moms, as anyone, on the back burner.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what does it take for us to start to say this first, everything else second?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's always a legitimate reason.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: We will always find or make up a legitimate reason why we put ourselves last.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: The kids need this, work needs this, the house needs this.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: But really, you're just postponing yourself indefinitely at that point because there will always be another need.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: There will always be something else that could get your attention and your time.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And at some point we have to turn inward to what our own needs are in order to keep pushing forward.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: The idea isn't to just stop and be like, this doesn't serve me anymore.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm done.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's how do I meet my own needs internally?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: How do I even become aware of what those needs are to keep doing the things for the house, for the kids, for our partners, for ourselves, for work, whatever it is that's important.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: But that's what resiliency builds.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it is.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's turning inward to turn outward.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just hearing like this theme of like permission to take care of yourselves, right?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: To actually start to build that awareness, to be in tune with what is actually going on with you.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: And again, we both are describing like kind of these physical symptoms, but it can go beyond that, right?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's yeah, if you're struggling mentally, if you're having anxiety, if you have like anything, the overwhelm, the stress, all the things, people describe burnout and how your hair can start falling out, right?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because of the stress and burnout that's happening.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you can just stay more in tune and more aware to symptoms that are happening to you in whatever way they're showing up, then I think the permission then to do something about it, to act on it.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think about mine, I have no one else to blame but myself, right?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I, it's my own body, I'm in control of it.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that there were things going on that didn't feel right, and I just put it on the back burner and put it aside.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe there was pressure to keep showing up and keep doing all the things, and so maybe you can say that it was more than just me, but at the end of the I'm the one in control to shift this.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it took that for me to actually start to look at things different.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a yes and.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yes, it was your choice of when you go to the doctor and in your control.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you were a new mom.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: You had two under two.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And determining what symptoms might be something larger than just new motherhood, I think it's really hard.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a yes and because I don't want you spiraling on me about that.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's a yes and because yes, things can be in our control, right?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about the circle of control with clients a lot.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it can be something that we have control over.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: And somatic symptoms, physical symptoms can relate to so many different things.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I a lot of times will be like, I just haven't slept in three days.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what it's because of, not because it's something else.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: But that's where I think that pause of is this something more than just yep.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Again, air quotes for those of you that can't see me, because only Jen can.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: Typical motherhood, typical stress that we feel, I think is really important.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: My strategy has often been to just ignore every small single signal that comes my way and then act personally betrayed when my body decides something is wrong.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just ignore it, ignore it, and then I'm like, oh, I needed a 16-hour coma to like be okay, right?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Or I get I'm so irritable because I'm overstimulated.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: And instead of just acknowledging that for myself that maybe I'm not prioritizing my needs, I just get grouchy at everybody, right?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's it's yes, and yes, there are things that are in control, and there are pieces that we have to slow down to really pay attention to to know what steps maybe we should take and maybe what is normal life.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I appreciate that because you're so right.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's the things that are within our control, but there's also just life lifing outside of that.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think the mental load goes into this a lot too.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: Especially you you had two under two.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: And we as parents are asked to anticipate everyone else's needs all the time.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's part of the job description.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so we know who needs a snack, who's tired, who needs an appointment, whose energy feels off that day.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, who's crabby because they didn't get to press the doorbell button at school.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then somebody asks what we need, yeah, and we go, wait a minute.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, what?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: I I have needs, right?
• 24:35
  unknown: Right.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I legitimately was apologizing the other day to somebody for having a need.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it was my brother.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say, like, what was the need?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even remember.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was something so small.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: We were driving.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: My brother, bless his soul, decided to come on a 10-hour drive with me and my children.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, right, okay.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I remember we were talking about something, and I said, Oh, sorry, can you hand me my water?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, sorry, can we can we stop so I can go to the bath?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: I apologized before every time I asked for something.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: And he looked at me and said, Could you stop apologizing for having needs?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Good for him, yes.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Oh, I should do that.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a piece of it too when we're talking about we have control over things and also the mental gymnastics we're doing.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: Of monitoring and anticipating everybody's needs.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Where's space for us?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: How do we create it, Jen?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: How do we create it?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, Kate, I wonder.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: I put you on the spot.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: You did, but I appreciate it.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think resilience sometimes maybe just looks like stopping.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's hard to pause.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of ideas that circle around too when we talk about stopping, or it's like lowering the all the things we've talked about so many times.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Lowering the bar, saying no, we talked about the one that I think stands out the most is asking for help.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we confuse having a need with creating a burden for someone else.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: So instead of asking for help when it would be useful, we wait until help is necessary.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I know for me, asking for help is really hard.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: One, because I want to prove that I can do it by myself.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: But two, I make up this story about why the other person couldn't do it.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I need help with this.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: I can't ask Jen, which I know I could, but I can't ask Jen because Jen's a mom and Jen's busy and Jen is trying to do X, Y, Z.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of just letting the other person set a boundary for what's in their capacity and determining whether they could, I make up a whole narrative why they can't.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's one thing.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: You talk yourself out of asking.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh, they I have I can't ask.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: They're too busy.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to put a burden on them.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: So then I just don't until I'm drowning.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so recognizing that an ask is just that.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's an ask.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that other people can determine what their capacity is, and they'll tell you yes or no.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: And if they say no, then that's the worst they're gonna say is no, because they can't.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: But maybe they say yes and you get support before it becomes this like crisis drowning feeling.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's something that I think you do really well with your clients, and I know you do it.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I I wonder if you would talk about the notice, name, response.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I was half joking earlier when I said like it looks like stopping.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it just looks like pausing.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've been talking about from earlier.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so I do, I think there's a lot of ways to go about this, and it can be notice, name, respond, it can be notice, name, reframe, right?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of different ways that I go about this when I'm working with clients.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: But for this in particular, I think it is about pausing, noticing what you're experiencing in the moment.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you can notice it, then you can figure out what to do with it, right?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it really does take that kind of moment of pause to actually pay attention to your body, pay attention to the triggers, to the symptoms, to whatever's happening.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Name it.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: What might this actually be telling me?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we notice it's happening and then we're able to put a name to it.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: I do this a lot for feeling, so it's like, oh, I'm feeling really like my heart's beating fast, and I'm whatever.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is that anxiety?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is that anger?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Nerves?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: What is that that's actually happening?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: So for this, it's naming, maybe it's overwhelm of like, yeah, I know I need to be doing something else for myself, but these other things are happening.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that, maybe that's overwhelm that's happening.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then respond to it.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: So what do I need to do with this information?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now that I'm paying attention to myself, now that I have a name for what's happening, what action can I take?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: What can I actually do to maybe like solve this little problem for me?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it was like if I would have paid attention sooner, noticed it, named it, then my response would have been go to the doctor.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe a year and a half or so before I did, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can actually do that and pause and give yourself the space to kind of walk through this, I think it can be really eye-opening.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's in it's information too, and then acting intentionally.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what's important too about what you said is the signal doesn't automatically tell us the answer, but it means we need to get curious about what's contributing to it, and then we can proceed intentionally.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I love, I love the notice name respond as a like tangible is a weird way to frame it, but it's the word coming to my brain.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's a skill that we can use to be aware of what's going on our body so that we can build resiliency so we can keep doing the things and not just endure it like we've talked about, yeah, but actually continue living in a life that feels aligned.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think as we look to kind of close a little bit today, maybe some thoughts around what would we tell a mom who's currently in the middle of maybe her really hard season and and is doing what we once did and what what we're still trying to learn from and still maybe break a little bit.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: But what is like one maybe single piece that we could tell a mom who's currently kind of really going through this?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think sometimes pushing through is genuinely necessary.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: Motherhood doesn't always allow us to stop immediately, but even then we can acknowledge what it is costing and make a plan to repair or recover.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a big takeaway is we're not telling you to not push through.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: We have to.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's life.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: And can we just have some more space and awareness around what pushing through is costing us so that we can set up a plan for rest and recovery later.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: And my other thing that I would say is that healthy resilience has flexibility.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it and lets us change the plan based on where we are, and survival mode is rigid.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: We have to just keep going.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: But we can actually have some flexibility in what resiliency looks like and how we build it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that'd be my two.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, along the lines of what we say in other episodes, but it's like take out of this what works for you and leave what doesn't behind, right?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't to say that every decision, but it's realistic to make every decision around us ourselves being the priority and really focusing on that and and losing sight of all the other needs that happen around us, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is really just maybe back to what I was sharing with this kind of notice, name, respond.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think just taking that moment of pause to say, what have you been noticing lately?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then what have you been telling yourself to ignore?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: So if we can really start to pay attention to that piece of it, I think it does just unlock these things that we've been setting aside that we don't even always realize we're doing.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if you are in this kind of hard season right now and you're not finding a good balance with it, maybe, or not finding the ways to prioritize your own needs at times.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes just trying to figure out what it is you're ignoring, what needs to become the priority, and then including others.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think support system is so huge in all of this.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think when I, you know, finally went back to my husband after I was like, this is really bad, like he was on me to say, You've been talking about this for a while, you need to go to the doctor, right?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: There are other people that can kind of help carry this with you sometimes or figure out what that looks like.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: So don't be in it alone either.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think is one thing I would ask any listener to kind of walk away with.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: That if you're in the hard season, ask for some support, figure out what that looks like and and give it space that it needs and deserves.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's huge.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: And we had Alyssa on here earlier who talked about community.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a huge piece is building community for yourself.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I also want I also want to highlight that this doesn't have to look like big things.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, resiliency can be built in little things.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: So letting your house look like people actually live there, right?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Not even right, that that's a thing.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Ordering dinner, canceling a plan, asking for someone to take over, those are all small things.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things I do with my clients about resiliency is as kids, we celebrate everything.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: We found a cool rock, we did the monkey bars, so-and-so became our bestie.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever we think about Jack and I when they come home and they're like, Mom, guess what happened?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like the smallest thing.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: And as adults, we think it has to be marriage and babies and promotions and whatever big.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: We we stop celebrating the little things.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I tell people, start focusing on the things that were a little bit hard, but you did them anyway.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I will be really honest.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Some days that means taking a shower because I don't, I'm tired, I don't feel whatever.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard to get up out of bed and take a shower, and I did it anyway.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes I give myself kudos for that because that was hard.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I really want people to hear that it doesn't have to be something big, it can be stopping to celebrate a small thing and making a small change for the day.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, back to the 1%, right?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, if you can just do even one thing different today for you that works for you than you did yesterday, then you're on the right track.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think as we sign off for today, I think something that Jen and I talked a lot about that we we really want to highlight is we don't want to stop recognizing women's or mothers' resilience.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: What we do want is to stop using resilience as an excuse for lack of support.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: We want people to feel supported and we want people to advocate for support in a way that feels right for them.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: And resilience isn't how little you can survive on, it's your ability to recognize what a hard experience requires of you and respond with flexibility, support, and honesty.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what this whole episode's about.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: And as we wrap up that, Jen and I have a really exciting announcement.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: We are partnering with Moms Feeling Themselves, which, if you don't know what that is, it is an incredible movement of creating a fun dance environment for moms to come out, dance, meet other moms, celebrate, and just kind of get in touch with themselves a little bit.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so they are having a dance here in Denver at the Gothic Theater on September 18th.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's at 7 p.m., which I personally find wonderful because I like to go to bed by 11.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it starts at 7 p.m.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's the back to school banger edition of the mom dance party, and we are partnering with them to have a giveaway of two tickets.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it is on our Instagram page at messi.minded.mama, where you can enter our giveaway.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: You'll follow us, you'll follow moms feeling themselves, and we will be there.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we hope that you come hang out with us absolutely.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, I'm really excited.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: I am too.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just a great opportunity to like take the night off.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to be a part of this, and we would love to see you there as part of the giveaway, and anyone else that decides to join, we would love to hang out with you that night.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: So come hang out.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure you're following us on Instagram as well as Moms Feeling themselves, and we so appreciate you checking in with us today, and we'll see you next week.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: See you next time.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being here with us today.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: If something in this episode resonated, we're really glad you listened.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Messy minded or not, you're not alone in this, and you don't have to have it all figured out.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: If you'd like to stay connected, you can follow Messy Minded Mama wherever you listen to podcasts.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: And follow us on Instagram at messy.minded.mama.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be back to connect again soon.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.