Latest / Content, Briefly / Code Climate: Hillary Nussbaum's "back to basics" approach for technical marketing

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Code Climate: Hillary Nussbaum's "back to basics" approach for technical marketing · Content, Briefly

• 0:00
  [gentle music] People are savvy. They know when you're just trying to sell them something, so why don't you just tell them why they want the thing?
• 0:09
  Don't talk about how great your feature is unless you can explain what it's doing for the person you're selling it to. Lead with value. [gentle music] Hey, and thanks for tuning in to another episode of Content Briefly.
• 0:23
  Today I've got a great conversation for you with Hillary Nussbaum. She's the director of corporate marketing at a company called Code Climate, which is kind of an analytics layer for engineering teams.
• 0:33
  She explains it much better than I do.
• 0:34
  Over the last couple of years, she's gone from content marketing manager to head of content marketing to now director of corporate marketing, overseeing all content, website, brand, PR, messaging, et cetera.
• 0:44
  We obviously talk quite a bit about that. We also talk about marketing a technical product. Whether you market a technical product or not, very much worth listening to Hillary's advice on it.
• 0:52
  Really, it's all about getting back to some of the fundamentals. We talk through that in a lot of detail. Really good stuff.
• 0:58
  A lot of just reminders of things we all should do that she is forced to do because she's marketing to a technical buyer, and I think there's some great stuff in there.
• 1:06
  I really enjoyed this conversation, and I think you will too. One last thing before we jump into this episode. I have three quick favors to ask.
• 1:13
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• 1:24
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• 1:34
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• 2:08
  [gentle music] Hey, everybody, Jimmy from Superpath here today with another episode of Content Briefly. Today, we'll be talking with my friend Hillary Nussbaum, director of corporate marketing at Code Climate.
• 2:21
  Hillary, thanks so much for being here. How are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So excited to chat.
• 2:26
  Would you mind giving us a brief introduction of yourself and some of the work you've been up to over the last couple years? And maybe specifically, your career has been on a pretty awesome trajectory.
• 2:36
  Like, if you go look at your LinkedIn, it's like at Code Climate specifically, it was like content manager, director of content marketing, now director of corporate marketing.
• 2:43
  I would love to know a little bit more about that and just a little bit more about you in general as well. Sure. So I would say my career has been atypical, although I think that's true of a lot of content marketers.
• 2:52
  I actually started in unscripted television. Oh, interesting. And then [chuckles] I worked in independent film for a while and freelanced, and the freelancing got me into content marketing.
• 3:03
  I did copywriting and branded video, and then I went in-house at Conductor, which is a martech company, and then I ended up at Code Climate as content marketing manager and progressed from there to where I am now, director of corporate marketing.
• 3:18
  And part of that evolution has been based on the needs of the team and the company, and my role has kind of evolved naturally.
• 3:26
  And a lot of that has been the fact that it is a relatively small team, and so you get the opportunity to take on more responsibility and grow into a role that maybe didn't even exist before.
• 3:39
  There was no director of corporate marketing when I joined Code Climate, but as we saw the opportunity to do more with our, our marketing, I was able to take on additional responsibilities, like our website.
• 3:53
  There was really no one who was responsible for our website. The role grew, and I was able to, um, take that opportunity and make something out of it. That's fantastic.
• 4:02
  What's the time span from content manager to director of corporate marketing? Almost three years. That's fast. Yeah. [chuckles] It's fast.
• 4:09
  Again, I think that's part of the opportunity of being on a, a small team, is there are things that nobody's doing or that are kind of afterthoughts, that people are just doing the bare minimum.
• 4:19
  And if you're able to step up and take ownership of those things, that presents an opportunity for you to expand your purview. Yeah. I love that. I wanna go deeper on that.
• 4:30
  [chuckles] Could you talk briefly about working in unscripted television? Does that mean reality TV?
• 4:35
  It does mean reality television, but the company that I worked for mostly did travel shows and game shows, and I feel like people get really excited when I say reality TV, and they think that means I worked on The Housewives, which I did not.
• 4:48
  Yeah. [chuckles] I worked in development.
• 4:50
  So actually I started out as a question writer for Cash Cab and a researcher, and then I worked in development, so coming up with ideas for new shows and then packaging them and pitching them to networks.
• 5:03
  And I always say that was my crash course in audience and voice because we would take one show and we would try to sell it to five different networks.
• 5:12
  Each of those networks had a slightly different audience, a slightly different tone, a slightly different idea of who they were and, and who they were broadcasting for.
• 5:21
  And so we would have to take that one idea and make it sound like it was tailor-made for each of those different networks.
• 5:27
  And so really had to be aware of who we were talking to, who they were trying to reach, and adjust the language and the tone of the pitch accordingly.
• 5:36
  And so that served me really well in content marketing because we talk so much about who is our audience, who is our ideal customer, how are we going to reach them in an attention-grabbing way, how are we gonna speak directly to their needs?
• 5:50
  And so-That's kind of been an interesting thread that's carried over, and then just the storytelling side of things has been really helpful as well. That's really cool.
• 5:59
  That's a first on this podcast, for sure, and sounds like an amazing prep for the work that you're doing now at Code Climate, and maybe that's a good segue to get a better understanding of Code Climate, both the company and the product.
• 6:11
  Could you just tell us a little bit about the who and the what of Code Climate? Sure.
• 6:15
  Code Climate makes a software engineering intelligence platform which is designed for engineering leaders at large companies to better understand the way their engineering team is working, and opportunities for improvement.
• 6:32
  So in a bigger company, you know, a higher level, maybe you're a manager of managers, maybe you're a CTO, you don't always know what is happening at the level of the engineering work, and you can kind of guess, and you can say, "Well, this feels slow today," or, "This sprint feels slow," or, "Why is this feature held up?"
• 6:48
  But you don't really know, and you don't really have the data to have a real conversation about it, so an SEI platform like Code Climate Velocity helps give you that information.
• 6:58
  And so we really try to train people on how to use it, as well as we don't just provide the platform. It's kind of what do you do with that platform?
• 7:07
  And that's where the content marketing [chuckles] really comes in handy.
• 7:10
  We talk about how you can use it to coach your team, to keep your teams better aligned, to make sure bottlenecks are resolved, make sure everyone's working on the right thing.
• 7:19
  It's a really powerful platform and with a lot of use cases.
• 7:23
  Do I understand correctly that it's kind of like an analytics layer, so that if you have a team with, say, dozens of engineers that you are able to track progress or productivity to make it easier to zoom in on areas that are not working as well?
• 7:37
  Like, would that be, like, a common use case? Yeah. You could use it to say things are always getting held up in review and why is our code review process slowing us down. Let's dig in.
• 7:48
  Let's see what's going on and how we can fix it. And, you know, it's really this balance between facilitating productivity and then also removing frustrations for teams, right?
• 7:59
  It's not just productivity for the sake of productivity and making sure everyone's hitting quotas. There's no quotas. It's just, like, how can we make things work better so that we have happier, more successful teams.
• 8:11
  Got it. Okay. That's a very helpful explanation. How technical is the buyer, and how technical is the content as a result of that? I mean, you mentioned managers, managers, managers, CTOs.
• 8:22
  I mean, those folks obviously have probably very technical backgrounds, but are they purchasing a product like this based primarily on a business case rather than integrations and things like that?
• 8:33
  And I guess what I'm really getting at is, is the stuff that you all publish super technical, or are you looking more to persuade a buyer to make a decision rather than tutorials and other, like, highly technical content?
• 8:43
  Yeah. So we definitely market to a highly technical audience. It's not incredibly technical content in the sense that we're not talking about the mechanics of coding necessarily.
• 8:56
  We're talking more about how teams work and about leadership. We talk a lot about leadership. We end up talking a lot about coaching, fostering psychological safety, communication.
• 9:06
  And so there's a technical angle to all of that, where we talk about how to use data to be better at those things, but it's not a highly technical 20-step detailed blog post where we walk through everything, mainly because what we're, what we're helping, we're helping technical teams, but we're helping them get better at more process and communication and that sort of thing.
• 9:32
  Got it. I wonder if something like this exists for content marketers. I feel like- [laughs]... I could imagine a need for a very similar product in other areas of companies, too. Definitely.
• 9:40
  Also because I feel like content marketers always struggle with data and helping communicate where their time is going, what they're doing, and the impact of that for the companies. Definitely.
• 9:50
  So you don't come from a technical background. What was the learning curve or what is the learning curve like for you?
• 9:56
  I had to learn a lot about how teams work and what challenges developers and teams of software engineers face, but because I don't write, again, like, coding tutorials or anything like that, I never had to learn that.
• 10:15
  I learned the very basics of coding so that I could understand what someone sees when they log into GitHub and what a pull request is, because we do talk about those things a lot, but any remaining knowledge gaps I fill by talking to people on the team.
• 10:32
  And, you know, we have some great, really technical people at Code Climate who are always willing to read something or talk through something and make sure that it sounds accurate [chuckles] and authoritative.
• 10:43
  That's fantastic. You know, I feel like whenever I talk to people about any type of technical content, you always get this response of, like, developers can sniff out marketing, or, like, developers don't like it.
• 10:54
  They're allergic to marketing.
• 10:55
  Do you find that to be true, or do you find that that's a thing that non-technical content marketers say because maybe they're intimidated [chuckles] by the learning curve required potentially to do that type of writing?
• 11:07
  Mm-hmm. At Code Climate, we try to stay away from kind of more gimmicky marketing. Anything that is like, "We get you, and we all know, and let's all do this together" kind of feels a little condescending. Mm.
• 11:20
  And it does ring false because they know [chuckles] that the we who, who wrote that subject line in that email is probably not actually we in the sense that it's purporting to be.
• 11:32
  But I think it depends how you define marketing.
• 11:35
  Like, we try to make sure that we're providing value in every interaction, so if that's an email, if that's a blog post, we're not just saying, "Hey, we released this new book," or, "We released this new feature, and it's great."
• 11:50
  We're trying to show you why that matters to you.
• 11:53
  And so rather than, you know, just launch new feature, we would say something like, "You can now do this," or, "You can now solve this problem," and then we'll talk about how to do it.
• 12:05
  And so-I don't think that shows that developers are allergic to marketing. I think it's a need for people marketing to a technical audience to, like, get to the point and tell them why they should care.
• 12:16
  And, and honestly, I think that's true of whoever you're marketing to, right? Like, people are savvy. They know when you're just trying to sell them something, so why don't you just tell them why they want the thing?
• 12:26
  Don't talk about how great your feature is unless you can explain what it's doing for the person you're selling it to. Yeah. Lead with value.
• 12:35
  I think we just found the 60-ish second clip that we'll use to promote this one on LinkedIn. I just wanna flag- [laughs]... what you said about flipping the script.
• 12:42
  Instead of saying, "We did this, we launched this feature, we whatever," presenting it as value to, you know, your reader, your subscriber, et cetera, and saying, "You now have the ability to do X."
• 12:52
  That is such a different mindset, such a different mindset, and I feel like it speaks to a few things.
• 12:57
  One is kind of your ability to empathize with the person on the other side, your ability to kind of understand how does this message hit them during their day? Are they, like, busy doing a bunch of other things?
• 13:07
  Are they feeling stressed because they have deadlines? You know, you have five seconds basically. And so putting yourself in their seat and making that messaging very tailored to them, super, super important.
• 13:17
  And I think the other thing too is I think it's probably more important for technical products' marketing to hit a certain tone than it might be for non-technical. Like, the tone is so important.
• 13:29
  It cannot, as you said, feel gimmicky.
• 13:32
  Like, sometimes you can get away with stuff like that if you're marketing to sales or marketing folks as an example, but it just doesn't work for developers, which sort of maybe forces you to, like, stick to your fundamentals as opposed to relying on, like, gimmicks and tactics that might help you, like, make an inch of progress here and an inch of progress there.
• 13:49
  Like, if you just set that stuff aside, you can focus on the more important things.
• 13:52
  So just calling that out because I think it's really smart what you just said, and I want everyone to take that as a little reminder for their own stuff.
• 13:59
  One other thought I had related to that is that I think for technical products, it's very important that there's top-down buy-in on content marketing.
• 14:05
  I would imagine that your purview is now larger than just content, but marketing in general needs that top-down buy-in because you will quite likely need the support of other people on the team to get your work done, right?
• 14:17
  You're publishing a guide, an e-book, you have a new campaign coming up, and you have to check the tone against someone who might fall into the target audience, who might be, like, a few desks down from you at CoClimate.
• 14:28
  You know what I mean? You might need additional subject matter expertise.
• 14:31
  You might need to interview people, and those people exist within the company, but you need that top-down buy-in to kind of keep people working together. Have you found that to be true? Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:39
  Uh, it's funny, when I interviewed for the role, I very distinctly remember there was kind of that last informal coffee interview with an exec, and they said, "What do you need from us to do your job well?"
• 14:52
  And that was what I said. I said, "I need buy-in." I need people to understand why this is important because it's an investment, right? You don't necessarily see the return on content marketing right away.
• 15:04
  You're making an SEO plan. It could take months to rank, and it's not something where you can say, "We published this blog post," and a week later, tout your successes.
• 15:12
  There's a little bit of investment, so there's that trust piece. People need to understand why this will pay off. And then, yeah, there's a time piece.
• 15:20
  I need people to be willing to talk to me, how to read pieces I wrote, give feedback, and also to write pieces themselves, right?
• 15:30
  Like, I work often with technical people at the company to edit things that they've written and get them ready for publication because they have such interesting things to say. They have such great perspectives.
• 15:42
  They're thought leaders, and we want to be a legitimate thought leader in this space, and that requires having the actual people who have this expertise sharing their opinion and sharing their perspectives.
• 15:54
  So without that buy-in, you don't get people who are willing to talk to you or to put their thoughts on a piece of paper for you to put them out into the world.
• 16:03
  You know, on that same note, I'm curious how much content gets written in-house versus externally by freelancers or agencies? Like, are you able to give a rough split?
• 16:11
  And the reason I ask is just because I think it's probably easier to do this type of content in-house and maybe harder to find contractors who can do it, but I'm not certain that's true. It's true.
• 16:23
  We've had a hard time finding freelancers.
• 16:26
  We definitely tried because we would like to be producing more content, and it's really difficult to find people who have the technical expertise and the writing skill who are also able to get on board with our messaging.
• 16:41
  There are just some particular things that we do say, we don't say. There's a particular way we talk about our product. I'm sure that's true of everybody.
• 16:49
  And then some of it also goes back to that people are allergic to marketing conversation that we were just having. There's a voice that a lot of freelancers default to that we just don't use. Mm.
• 16:59
  And so we've had a hard time finding people who are consistently available to work for us. Obviously, we're willing to put in that time and, and train somebody, but we just have had a hard time finding that fit.
• 17:12
  So we've generally had a content writer on the team or a content strategist on the team writing a lot of the content.
• 17:18
  We've leaned on outside agencies who kind of have that longer contract who we're able to really work with and bring them up to speed and kind of get them to the place they need to be so that they can deliver for us.
• 17:30
  But mostly things are written in-house. For that reason, you just-- we need that expert perspective. Yeah. No, that makes a ton of sense.
• 17:39
  You know, there was a company that we worked with at Animals, this is going back, like, five or six years, and they were in the medical device space, and the content was highly technical.
• 17:49
  And they had created a course for all vendors, and the vendors were required to go through it, and it was pretty extensive, actually.
• 17:59
  Like, it got people up to speed on kind of the basics, like the brand, the product, the target persona, things like that. But then it walked through examples of marketing they liked, what they liked about it.
• 18:09
  It was very helpful. But someone like you, you have sort of this additional burden of because it's harder to find, especially vendors, like external vendors, harder to find them.
• 18:17
  There's more work involved in sourcing them, in educating them, in getting through those first couple articles where there's probably a lot of feedback and then retaining them.
• 18:26
  There's a lot there to make all that happen. Yeah.
• 18:29
  The course sounds great, and I mean, that's when people on the marketing team, when I onboarded, we had a whole course, and we had quizzes, and I had to get certified in giving a demo on the product.
• 18:38
  And, like, we really need people who have that knowledge because, yes, there's this idea that technical people are allergic to marketing, but the even more dangerous thing is talking about something like you know what you're talking about when you really don't.
• 18:52
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 18:52
  [laughs] Like, you have to really know what you're talking about because that's the thing that someone on the other end of your marketing will smell right away, and they'll, they'll know that-You're missing some critical piece of understanding, and it's something that I can tell, too, when I've brought people on.
• 19:09
  I can say, like, "The problem is not your writing, the problem is that you're missing this understanding, and we need to go back and dig into the product and get you a little more familiar with that, because that's coming through."
• 19:20
  So the onboarding is really critical. Yeah. I'm glad you brought up faking it, because I feel like content marketers faking it and the practice of SEO, there's a lot of overlap there, right?
• 19:33
  Because there's this kind of underlying gamification of, like, getting content to rank. Like, you can fake the subject matter expertise and still get, quote-unquote, "results," you know?
• 19:43
  That leads me to another question for you, which is could you paint in very broad strokes just kind of an overview of your content strategy?
• 19:48
  How much do you rely on things like SEO versus thought leadership that might get distributed on social versus kinda like bottom of the funnel-y type stuff that you might hand over to sales?
• 19:58
  What's the mix of those things like? Yeah. So our content is a mix of more thought leadership leading content and SEO geared content, but even our SEO content has some sort of thought leadership bent.
• 20:12
  It, it goes back to that always be providing value piece and also knowing who your audience is, and often SEO plays can be very rudimentary and really walk through the basics, and our audience is already a level past that.
• 20:27
  And so we kinda have to balance who are we talking to with what keywords are we trying to go for? And SEO in this space is also really challenging because we are speaking to, again, VPs, directors, CTOs.
• 20:41
  They have complicated challenges that they're trying to solve that we're trying to help them with that are not things that they can Google necessarily. That's not the first place they turn.
• 20:52
  They turn to peers in their network. So when we can find a keyword, we try to jump on it because they are so few and far between.
• 21:01
  And so there are some leadership frameworks that have been very popular that are really useful for people in our audience, so we'll make sure to write about those and to explore them from a bunch of different angles to really make sure that we capitalize on them.
• 21:17
  But there is a lot of pure thought leadership content that's designed to be shareable and thought provoking that we're hoping people will read, that they will pass on to members of their teams, that's just full of really valuable information.
• 21:31
  And for those pieces, we do try to make sure that we have keywords in there, but it's not the priority, and the priority is thought provoking, clear, informative content.
• 21:45
  We don't want it to look like it's a keyword play, 'cause it's not.
• 21:49
  But I think to your point about content for SEO seeming gimmicky, there's a lot that can be done where you follow the best practices and you make sure you have the keyword in the headline and the subhead and the intro, but from there, if you're really thinking about your audience and what do they want to hear when they're searching this keyword, what do they wanna know?
• 22:11
  I think you'll still be successful from a search perspective. Because ultimately, if you have that gimmicky content that you're able to rank with quickly, it's not gonna stay, right?
• 22:23
  It's not gonna be sticky because people are not going to keep coming to your site. That post is... If it's not credible, it's going to fall in search.
• 22:31
  And so to me, again, you follow those best practices, you make sure you have keywords in the, the most important places.
• 22:38
  I like to have a really clear definition of a term if it's that sort of post that can be grabbed by Google. But beyond that, are you answering people's questions?
• 22:47
  Like, is this really what they wanna know when they search that term? And if you can deliver that, you'll be successful in search, I think. And, and it's borne out. We've been very successful in search, so...
• 22:57
  That's great, and I think that's a great description. You also just provided a summary of a article that we wrote for the Animalz blog also many years ago about this idea of writing for pay scale.
• 23:08
  There's a tactical reader who probably does want step-by-step instructions or how-to guides and things like that, and then there's a strategic reader who can't Google their problems because they're too nuanced and complicated.
• 23:20
  If you can present those folks exactly as you said with the frameworks, the mental models, the principles, like, to give them ways to think about it, ultimately they're probably gonna have to solve the problem on their own.
• 23:30
  You can't really solve it for them, but if you can give them a structure for thinking about it, that is basically the best thought leadership content you could possibly write.
• 23:39
  You also mentioned SEO content doing really well, which reminded me that I wanted to ask you about metrics. Not asking you to share specific numbers, but are there data points that you care about and measure closely?
• 23:48
  Yeah. I mean, we look at organic traffic, and we look at keyword ranking, not at the granular level, but if we identify as a keyword as something we wanna rank for, are we able to get in the top 10?
• 24:01
  How many of the keywords that we are going after do we rank for in the top 10? So kind of high level things like that.
• 24:07
  And then we do look really carefully at, it's not really metrics, but it is data, which posts and which keywords are bringing the most traffic, and then how can we shore that up?
• 24:19
  How can we write about topics around those keywords? Because it is important, and it, it is a signal, too, of what people are engaging with and what they're interested in. Definitely.
• 24:28
  Do you use a spreadsheet or Google Data Studio or some other tool to track important metrics? And then do you have some kind of regular meeting with the person that you roll up to to chat through that stuff? Yeah.
• 24:39
  We had a third party agency put together a report for us on Dashthis, but it's built on Google Analytics, and it's very clear, very visual ways to present the information.
• 24:50
  And then, yeah, we report to the marketing team on a biweekly or quarterly basis.
• 24:58
  We go through different iterations depending on, like, what our priorities are in that period of time, but it is something that we'll check in with and then-At the quarterly company-wide meetings, we will report on interesting findings and things that we've been successful at and things that we need to work on.
• 25:14
  Got it. Got it. I don't think that we can do this podcast without talking at least a little bit about AI. Are you finding use cases for AI? Is there a company policy on it?
• 25:25
  That's, that's a new thing I'm hearing about company policies on it, or just any other kind of thoughts you have on AI's ability to make your life easier. Yeah.
• 25:32
  So there's a lot of conversation about AI and understanding that we don't really know yet where it's useful, but it's something to explore. I personally haven't.
• 25:42
  My thinking is that it could be incredibly useful if you were taking a blog post and need to write an email based on it or some social posts to promote it, but I haven't used it enough to say. Got it. Got it.
• 25:56
  Have you all experimented at all with any company policies related to content creation specifically?
• 26:01
  Meaning, like, if you assign a piece out to a vendor that you have an expectation that they do or do not use AI in certain ways. We don't have a policy from the content creation perspective.
• 26:11
  We don't need it yet because we are such a small team, but I personally would not be comfortable bringing on a vendor and having them use AI to generate a blog post.
• 26:24
  Again, a lot of that comes back to our audience and our expertise, and we really need to know what we're talking about, and the people who know what they're talking about are people with that experience, and I don't think AI is at a point where it can really parse what is a, a credible source on this matter and what is someone who is writing to sound like a credible source.
• 26:47
  [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. And then there's, you know, all sorts of sticky challenges around authorship and, and all that. So no, we don't have a policy. We're just not a big enough operation to need it at this point.
• 26:58
  I think we have a sense of where everybody's information is coming from. Yeah, scale is definitely the thing that necessitates policies and- Mm-hmm... things like that.
• 27:06
  One question I meant to ask you at the very beginning, but I'll ask it now because I don't wanna forget, is your title now, Director of Corporate Marketing, so content falls under that.
• 27:15
  You mentioned the website falls under that as well. I'd love to know a little bit more about, like, what goes into that, and then are there other channels that you're overseeing too? Yeah.
• 27:23
  So there was a lot of thought over whether corporate was the right word and how clear it was because it is... it's really brand content and PR. And so the website is kind of a mix of brand and content, I guess.
• 27:38
  I oversaw a redesign, and we rewrote all of our website content, and so that really fell under that umbrella. But it's really how is Code Climate presenting itself in the market.
• 27:49
  So that's distinct from product marketing, which is very specific. It's kind of everything else. It's our messaging, it's our branding, voice tone, and then our content that we're putting out there.
• 27:59
  And so that's blog, newsletter, social, webinars, e-books.
• 28:06
  When we have people give talks at conferences, I'll, I'll work closely with them on their talk track and their deck and then kind of make sure that's all in keeping with our messaging.
• 28:15
  So it's really everything that we're h- putting out there that isn't specifically under the umbrella of product marketing.
• 28:21
  Got it, and I think actually speaks to something we talked about a little earlier, which was the importance of tone and getting it right. Messaging, obviously, super important part of that. Mm-hmm.
• 28:30
  And having control over the, the whole experience, not just the blog posts, but everything that people will see.
• 28:36
  Yeah, and, and so we have a style guide and a voice and tone guide, and I'll try to walk through the sales team and the CS team and anyone who is engaging with customers and prospects on kind of how we talk about ourselves and what we say and what we don't say and how important that all is.
• 28:52
  Yeah. Got it. Awesome. Anything else that you feel is, like, important to chat through that I didn't ask you about? Yeah.
• 28:58
  I think the important thing to remember when you're marketing to a technical audience is you're still marketing to people. They still...
• 29:05
  They want content that matches their level of expertise, but they don't necessarily want dry content unless they're really looking for a technical explainer on something.
• 29:15
  And that's why it's so important to be thinking about who they are, what do they wanna hear, how can you appeal to a need, a challenge.
• 29:23
  I think there's a lot of fear because of that technical label, but you're still talking to a person on the other side, and you still need to create something that's clear and engaging and really hooks them in. Yeah.
• 29:34
  No, I think that's great. Hillary, thank you so much for spending time with us today.
• 29:37
  Every time we talk to an experienced content marketer, we get a new flavor of career, of strategy, of all these things, and you've brought a couple, like, really unique things, things that we just have not talked about on this podcast related to your background, but also the way you approach kind of a more technical audience, the way you handle content creation.
• 29:57
  So lots of really great stuff in here, and we really appreciate the time. Where can we send folks to follow along with your work personally and also Code Climate stuff? Sure.
• 30:07
  I think my LinkedIn is probably the, the most up to date. I do have a website, hillarynusbaum.com, but it's not super updated.
• 30:16
  But yeah, LinkedIn, I'm Hillary Berkowitz Nusbaum on LinkedIn, and then Code Climate is at codeclimate.com. Cool. Awesome. We'll put links to that stuff. Go check out Code Climate's marketing.
• 30:26
  You know, it's cool, I think, to hear you describe it and then go see it in real life. I feel like that's where sometimes the inspiration comes from for folks listening. So anyways, Hillary, thanks so much.
• 30:35
  Great to chat. Hope we can do it again one day, and I'll talk soon. Yeah. Thank you. Take care. [outro music]