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Stop Watering The Wrong Garden · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hi, welcome to the Moral Injury Support Network podcast.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: Daniel Roberts, President and CEO of Moral Injury Support Network.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: For Service Women Incorporated, a nonprofit organization based in North Carolina, helps women veterans uh recover from trauma experience while serving in the military.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: Today we have a great guest with us, Mr.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: J.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: He is a beacon of hope and transformation for those who feel lost, confused, or unsupported in their personal journeys.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: His background is steeped in the trials of life, including the abrupt loss of his father and the trauma of childhood challenges.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: Through these experiences, he found his calling in helping others overcome their struggles.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: His own journey through grief and betrayal trauma led Mr.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: J to become a certified betrayal trauma practitioner.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Drawing on this expertise, he empowers individuals to navigate relationship challenges, heal emotional wounds, and rediscover their self-worth.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: With empathy, empathy, and insight, Mr.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: J invites you to embrace change, reminding you that it all begins with looking within.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show, Mr.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: J.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: How are you?
1:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm amazing, uh, Dr.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Roberts.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me on.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate your time.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so tell us a little bit about your background.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: You've got some military background, and uh tell us a little bit about that and um how that shaped the work that you do now.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, you know what's interesting is so much of my life I did not pursue.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: It pursued me.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, how I actually joined the military, believe it or not, was um I was uh in college and when I went to register for another semester of college, I was asked, are you registered with selective service?
1:50
SPEAKER_02: Now I'm 19 years old, I have no idea what selective service means.
1:54
SPEAKER_02: So I start calling around to ask if I'm registered with selective service.
1:59
SPEAKER_02: And I was transferred to this person, to this person, to this division, to that department.
2:04
SPEAKER_02: Next thing you know, I'm on the phone with an army recruiter.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: And uh at the time I was uh a full-time student, but I also worked selling magazines.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: And so the army recruiter was talking to me, and I felt like he was trying to sell me something.
2:18
SPEAKER_02: And I said, Listen, I'm a salesman, just quit the pitch.
2:21
SPEAKER_02: You're you know, you know.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: But next thing you know, I'm in the recruiter's office signing away, you know, years of my life.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I actually spent uh four years in the Army Reserve, and then I was transferred over and spent another four years in the Air Force Reserve.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: And um, I'm I'm indebted to both services, um, two honorable, you know, discharges, and um loved my time in the military, absolutely.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: Uh it's it's uh something I'm extremely proud of, extremely proud of for many reasons.
2:54
SPEAKER_02: I'm the very first person in my entire family generation that joined the military.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, anyway, uh is uh I was a teacher for many years.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: I was a teacher for many years.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: I was certified, you know, K through A, also taught in um high school.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: High school students are very special.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: I say that very humorously.
3:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, but anyways, um then we uh we adopted our first child, and one of us, you know, it was important one of us stayed home.
3:21
SPEAKER_02: I decided to stay home.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: I spent a good 15 years being a stay-at-home dad, loved every minute of it, um, as challenging as it was.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then um, but but I I previously, before even teaching, I did some coaching, various coaching in different areas.
3:41
SPEAKER_02: So um, when my kids started to get older, um, I started looking into, you know, what should I do?
3:47
SPEAKER_02: Should I go back to teaching?
3:48
SPEAKER_02: Should I go into a completely different field?
3:50
SPEAKER_02: What have you?
3:51
SPEAKER_02: And um then, as you mentioned earlier, my father passed away abruptly.
3:55
SPEAKER_02: And when I mean abruptly, I was talking to my father one day on the phone, laughing, telling jokes, you know, we before we hung up, it was I love you.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: And then I think it was five or six days later, I was watching his coffin being lowered into the ground.
4:10
SPEAKER_02: And that sudden abrupt shock to my sister, my system, uh, brought upon my very first panic attack.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: It was a couple nights later I woke up to my first panic attack.
4:21
SPEAKER_02: Now I'm gonna tell you something.
4:23
SPEAKER_02: I've talked about panic attacks, I've heard about panic attacks, I've coached people on panic attacks, but boy, is there no substitute for experience.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't until I thought one when I was like, whoa, these don't play.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: So it was eventually days and weeks later, when I looked into what was it, why I had a panic attack, and what you know, I was led into the whole field of trauma and you know, PTSD and childhood PTSD, and then in the in the field of betrayal, and then more niche, or more specifically, betrayal trauma, a lot of unhealed trauma and betrayal trauma for my childhood.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: And I just thought it was such a fascinating field, fascinating field.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: And so I did some more research and I got into some organizations and and some companies and institutes like that, and learned so much, learned so much because there's a difference between betrayal trauma and non-betrayal trauma.
5:18
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
5:19
SPEAKER_02: And then uh, and then I uh wound up talking to um the the CEO and founder of one of these uh companies, and uh she psychology psychologists and she said, if you'd like to train under me to become certified in this field, I'd love to, you know, take you under my wing.
5:36
SPEAKER_02: And I did that, and it was a decent process.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: And uh eventually I became a certified betrayal trauma practitioner, and that is what I do full-time now.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: And like I said before, it's a fascinating field.
5:49
SPEAKER_02: It's fascinating, it's very um uh I mean, for lack of a better word, it's very sad at times, very traumatic, but it's a fascinating field because it's very multifaceted, very complex.
6:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh um and it's it's nice to help people help themselves on the journey to integrate trauma because I'm not really a big believer in healing trauma, I'm a big believer in integrating trauma and learning how to manage it so it doesn't manage you as much as it does.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's so much to love about what you just said.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, I I do find it completely uh and I want to get into integrating in a little bit, but earlier I I love what you said.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, uh or I find it really interesting how our childhood trauma waits decades before it decides to jump.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: I had my first panic attack at 54 years old a few months ago, and I've been to war, I spent 30 plus years in the army, I jumped out of airplanes, I did all kinds of like high-risk, sort of like difficult things, never had a panic attack.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: 54 years old after a surgery.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, I I started having panic attacks, and and you're right, like I had never experienced anything like that.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, wake up in the middle of the night so activated, there was no chance in hell I was gonna sleep.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's no chance I calmed down.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: I just like it, but it it's it's just so amazing how you can have this trauma as a kid, and it just waits there in the deep reaches of your mind, and then some almost like um unrelated thing happens, and that's when it wants to pounce.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, have you found that to be true with a lot of people?
7:50
SPEAKER_00: Like this underlying trauma has just been there and it's been waiting to like rear its ugly head at the most MR inopportune moments, especially when you're trying to sleep.
8:01
SPEAKER_02: You know, what's first of all, um grief and trauma are patient.
8:06
SPEAKER_02: They will wait and wait.
8:08
SPEAKER_02: And they, you know, and yeah, you know, the other thing too is uh grief and trauma, which you know could lead to panic attacks.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, a lot of this is like uh a loaded gun.
8:22
SPEAKER_02: It's a loaded gun.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: And you know, a loaded gun can sit there for decades and decades.
8:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
8:27
SPEAKER_02: There's an outside catalyst or something that pulls the trigger.
8:30
SPEAKER_02: And it sounds like your surgery or what have you was was that catalyst that pulled the trigger on what was already loaded within.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: And just like you know, there were some things loaded within me.
8:41
SPEAKER_02: So I was walking around a loaded gun.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was just my father's death was actually what pulled the trigger.
8:48
SPEAKER_02: So absolutely.
8:49
SPEAKER_02: But grief and trauma, if you don't deal with it, it will deal with you, and it is patient.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um we you talk about integrating uh betrayal or integrating trauma, I guess.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Talk about that because in in trauma circles, we're always talking about healing and recovery, and that's good.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: But I I kind of like I what's interesting about this conversation is lately I've been thinking the same thing.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: Like I've spent so many decades trying to like deal with fear instead of looking at it like there's something going on, there's a reason like I'm struggling, and it's not just because my brain is against me, right?
9:29
SPEAKER_00: There's there's something happening I need to deal with.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: So, so talk about this idea of integration, what you mean with that, and how what you try to help people walk through or or walk through or understand that concept.
9:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: Well, first let me just say this because it's it's on the forefront of my mind.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: Once in a blue, once in a while, we have to ask ourselves not why did this happen to me, but why did this happen for me?
9:57
SPEAKER_00: You sound like a friend of mine.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh, she says the same thing.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: It's this she always reminded me of that.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate you saying that.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: But first, let me just say this my niche is betrayal trauma.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: And um, in order to have betrayal trauma, uh, you need to have a reliance or a dependency on someone or something.
10:21
SPEAKER_03: Right.
10:21
SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, we can have betrayal trauma uh from our job because we rely on our job.
10:29
SPEAKER_02: We're dependent on our job.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: We can have betrayal trauma from a parent because we rely on our parent.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: Um we could also most certainly, which is probably 93, 95% of all of my clients, there's a infidelity betrayal.
10:46
SPEAKER_02: And the so I work with a lot of you know, uh cheating, infidelity, break trust.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: We could also have betrayal trauma um uh to from ourselves because we depend.
10:57
SPEAKER_02: So for instance, I you know, I work with a couple of women who are like Mr.
11:00
SPEAKER_02: J.
11:02
SPEAKER_02: I uh I exercised and I meditated and I drank all my shakes and you know, I was very healthy and I was diagnosed with breast cancer.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: I feel like my body betrayed me, or I betrayed me and allowed people to be on God.
11:15
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, betrayal trauma can come in many different forms.
11:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, I also, you know, have had people that um have betrayal from uh suicide, which now we call it um unaliving.
11:30
SPEAKER_02: Um so for instance, uh, Mr.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: J, my friend was my best friend, and I relied on them.
11:38
SPEAKER_02: Or my dad was my best friend, and he took his life.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: And so my dad robbed me of my best friend.
11:45
SPEAKER_02: That was a betrayal.
11:47
SPEAKER_02: So um betrayal has to have a reliance, a dependency upon.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: Having said that, I just want to say um very quickly, just for your listeners, there's different reasons why betrayal trauma um differs from say non-betrayal trauma.
12:06
SPEAKER_02: One, um, it's because of the whole personalization of things.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: So for instance, if you go outside and you see a car accident, that could be traumatizing to you.
12:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:17
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you don't think to yourself, oh my gosh, what what why why was I not good enough to prevent that car crash?
12:26
SPEAKER_02: But when you find out you're, and I'm just gonna use espousal and fidelity just as a when you find out that the person you loved and trusted, oftentimes more than you trust yourself, betrayed you, we personalize it.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: Why wasn't I good enough?
12:41
SPEAKER_02: Why wasn't I worthy?
12:43
SPEAKER_02: Why wasn't I loved enough?
12:44
SPEAKER_02: Why was that so we personalize it?
12:46
SPEAKER_02: Right.
12:47
SPEAKER_02: The second reason why betrayal trauma is different from non-betrayal trauma um is because of the whole secret society.
12:53
SPEAKER_02: If you lose a parent, well, you know, you have a funeral service.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: People come out of the woodwork and apologize, and your neighbor's bringing you lasagna to get cards, and when you discover under your mattress numbers to prostitutes that your spouse has been seeing, or you know, credit card bills from a hotel or something, um, a lot of times you don't want to shout it from the rooftops.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: Right.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: There's shame, there's embarrassment, there's guilt.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: So you live in a secret society, which makes the human journey much more um challenging.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: Now, there are those people that get on social media and say, Can you believe what that dirty dog did?
13:27
SPEAKER_02: But that usually comes back to haunt them for various reasons.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: So it's the second reason is the and then the last and final, just for the time's sake of this interview, uh, how betrayal trauma change is different from non-betrayal trauma is because trauma, non-betrayal trauma, affects the here and now in your future.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: Like, and I'll give you an example.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: My father loved school pictures.
13:50
SPEAKER_02: When my kids' pictures would come in from school, my father loved them.
13:54
SPEAKER_02: And I'll never forget when uh after he passed away, a couple months later, my kids had their school pictures, and I opened up the pictures of my kids and I and I looked at the pictures and I said, Oh my god, my father's gonna love.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: And then my heart sank.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because so that trauma affects the here and now and the future.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: For the rest of my life, my my father's never gonna see my my um kids.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: Now, obviously, I'm a person of faith.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: I do believe he sees it and all that, but it's different.
14:22
SPEAKER_02: He's not here on earth.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: The the difference between betrayal trauma, it's the only trauma that not only affects the present and the future, but betrayal trauma is the only trauma that affects the past.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: Because now you can't look at vacation pictures anymore the way you once did.
14:38
SPEAKER_02: Now you can't visit certain restaurants or hotels the way you once did, because now there's a negative emotional triggering impact that that comes.
14:47
SPEAKER_02: So it's the only trauma that affects not only your present and future, but your past.
14:52
SPEAKER_02: You can't talk the way you do talk anymore about your spouse or your partner.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: You can't visit the hot, you know, doctors that have uh flings with their nurses now, uh, that that that wife, that husband, whatever, can't visit that hospital anymore because of the past.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, and now you're questioning everything.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: Well, wait a minute.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: When we're on vacation and you said you had a meeting, were you actually at a meeting?
15:15
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:15
SPEAKER_02: Or were you hooking up or doing this or do so you so your past is very much affected?
15:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, so anyways, getting back to your question, because of we were talking about um healing, trauma, because of neuroplasticity, there are times, spaces, and places and elements of trauma and grief that you can heal.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: There are, however, in my opinion, professionally, what we do is we manage.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: And the reason being is this just like we never get over grief, we can't get over trauma.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: Listen, you've lost significant people in your life, you're never gonna get over them.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: Now, you're not gonna be in a crying fetal position as maybe when it first happened, but you're never gonna get over them.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna integrate that grief into your life and live.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: It's the same thing with trauma or betrayal trauma.
16:20
SPEAKER_02: We never, in my opinion, we never necessarily get over it.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: One of the main reasons why, Dr.
16:27
SPEAKER_02: Roberts, is because trauma incorporates grief and we don't get over grief.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: We incorporate grief.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: Same thing with trauma.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: We have to learn how to incorporate that trauma into our lives and learn how to manage it so it doesn't manage us.
16:42
SPEAKER_02: Because if we don't address and manage our traumas, uh, they will have significant effects physically, physiologically, mentally, emotionally.
16:53
SPEAKER_02: And that's why I will work with couples, oftentimes that are 30 years out of their betrayal, that are just now being affected for various reasons.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: So trauma and grief will wait.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: They're patient.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I wonder, um, it's it's a really good point because I I I love what you talk about, it affects your past, and that's what I was thinking too.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: Like, you can never again look at these things in a similar way.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: Like as you're talking about integration, I'm thinking about like physical wounds.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: Um you like I still have scar, I still have this scar uh from when I was just a very young, a few years old, and I got um a really bad wound on a barbed wire fence.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: That scar, that scar is still there, um, but doesn't it doesn't really affect me.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: So, in a sense, like that wound is is was integrated in my life in the sense I can look at that scar and remember what happened.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: I can look at this scar in my other arm at the recent surgery, and because of the nature of of the of the harm, right?
18:05
SPEAKER_00: The injury, when I do certain things, I still feel it in my arm.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh so it's still there, but doesn't affect me mentally, physically.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: I I can because of the surgeon was fantastic, um, and the and the recovery went well, I can still use my arm.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: It's it's more or less 100% um for the most part.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: Um so so in a sense, it's it doesn't affect me in a negative way, but um it's still there, right?
18:38
SPEAKER_00: And so are there when you're when you're when you're thinking about integration, are are people trying to draw lessons learned or are they just um or or is it um that so we're we're sort of like healing the emotions of it or or at least reducing have those memories, we're not catapulted into uh a really desperate emotional situation?
19:12
SPEAKER_00: Like what are what are some of the ways I guess that we're we're integrating?
19:17
SPEAKER_00: How how are you are are people like accepting and moving on?
19:22
SPEAKER_00: Like what are the some of the uh main things that you're trying to help people do in terms of integration?
19:30
SPEAKER_02: Well, first of all, let me just say this.
19:34
SPEAKER_02: My niche is people that relied on somebody, depended on somebody, and they they were um betrayed.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: And the and and the and I just want to uh say one of the reasons this is a real mind F is because when we are with somebody, especially on an emotional investment, such as a spouse, partner, significant other, we co-create with them.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: So we in in essence, in a lot of ways, become one with them.
20:14
SPEAKER_02: So when one person makes a decision to break trust, we are so deeply affected because our roots are ingrained with them.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: If you take a white rose and you cut the stem into three and you put it in three different food colorings, the entire petals, the rose itself is gonna change colors.
20:36
SPEAKER_02: And because we co-create with people, we are affected by their decisions, and so and this is why a lot of times, and if we have time, I'd like to maybe discuss something called betrayal blindness.
20:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, one of the things that's difficult is we're trying to heal something so profoundly damaging when we've lost touch with who we are because who we were was so deeply rooted and connected with or hurt us.
21:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's number one.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: Um now, uh one of the things that I tell people is at all times I want you to be mindful of this.
21:23
SPEAKER_02: You want to work on accepting yourself, um becoming whole, becoming worthy, and loving yourself.
21:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it's very difficult to love who you are and hate some of the things that made you who you are.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: And that's a very tall glass, that's a very big bite.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm not saying you have to love being abused, I'm not saying you have to love being betrayed, right?
21:52
SPEAKER_02: But but if you hate the elements that made you who you are, how do you love the all of who you are?
21:59
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: So yes, Dr.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: Dan, yes.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: You do have to um what I call be mindful of the uh blessings of the lessons.
22:17
SPEAKER_02: So um out of your trauma, out of your turmoil, out of your betrayal, what are those lessons?
22:28
SPEAKER_02: And now listen, I'm not I'm not talking to to to I'm not making this point with somebody who I'm just talking to that just found out about a betrayal.
22:36
SPEAKER_02: They don't want to hear this.
22:37
SPEAKER_03: Right, right, right, right.
22:39
SPEAKER_02: And trust me when I tell you, I have clients that I started talking to where they just discovered a betrayal in their marriage, and they're literally bear hugging the toilet, vomiting while we're talking.
22:51
SPEAKER_02: Um so, anyways, but but but I'm just talking about on the onset.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: Uh you do have to look at the the the blessings of the lessons.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: Were those were those lessons, um, I didn't have clear boundaries in certain areas of my life.
23:10
SPEAKER_02: Now, with my healing, I have boundaries.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: And that makes me now more respect myself more, have more self-worth, have so much self-worth.
23:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, maybe your lesson was to be more compassionate.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: Maybe your lesson was to stop being a people pleaser.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: Maybe so, so that's number one.
23:28
SPEAKER_02: That's number one.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: Maybe your lesson was to understand, you know what, people are human and they're fallible.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: And I don't believe in the once a cheater, always a cheater at all.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: I um just like I don't believe once an addict, always an addict.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: I believe once an addict, always vulnerable.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: Just like once a cheater, you know, there's certain things you have to be mindful of, whatever.
23:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, so so yes, I think not only does somebody have to learn lessons for themselves, but again, probably 90% of the clients I work with are couples that are trying to rebuild afterwards.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: It's what will you what was life whispering in your ear for years that you just ignored for whatever reason?
24:16
SPEAKER_02: And now uh now now a brick had to hit you in the head for you to say, okay, now I'm listening, universe.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think it I mean that's one of the tricks, right, when you're when you're working with people is if trying to bring those lessons out too early, it just sounds like it's your fault, right?
24:42
SPEAKER_00: So it's so it is tricky, right?
24:44
SPEAKER_00: To try to help them draw lessons um where it doesn't sound like, well, what can you learn like this?
24:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, nothing because that a whole day, you know, whatever, right?
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Or are you saying it's my fault, or we're not saying any of that, but I I love that bit of for you, and that's one of the I was texting my friend um about not this specifically, but uh the idea that the challenges I have were given to me for you know, because I'm a person of faith, and I sort of see as like the challenge I challenges that I have were a gift from God because He's trying to help me to become the person I totally can be.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Um not not not the the weak, not the person I thought I was, but as I'm trying to grow into this, it's like I have all these challenges because they're opportunities to grow, to learn, to to you know, learn things so that I can be better, be the person uh I fully am capable of being, and you don't you don't do that without challenges, and so you know, but it's tricky, right, to help someone um kind of those lessons or those ideas are deep in there somewhere.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, how do you draw that out of people without how do you help them understand the lessons that they can learn from it um while they're struggling with this betrayal or or you know this trauma that they're that they're experiencing?
26:27
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's a great question.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: And and the answer is I don't, because um, listen, I don't want to say a lot, but I have a decent amount of people that came to me because of what's called T trauma.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: So people are coming to me because of therapeutic trauma.
26:43
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, like for instance, um, I'll give you an example.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: I have uh couples that come to me because they discovered their spouse was having an affair or you know, had some type of cheating or infidelity, and they would go to a marriage therapist or a marriage coach or a marriage counselor, and the marriage counselor would say, Well, you know, it's because you guys don't have a good sex life, or it's because you guys don't have good communication skills.
27:07
SPEAKER_02: While all of that could absolutely be uh accurate, um, that's victim blaming, and that could cause profound trauma, right?
27:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I always say, I always say when two people come together in a marriage, there's two gardens.
27:28
SPEAKER_02: There's your personal garden, which you have to tend to, and that's you know, eating as healthy as you can, trying to get some exercise, trying to get your sleep, praying, meditating.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: You know, you have a personal garden, you gotta water it.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
27:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right, sure.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: You're married, now you have a second garden in your really in your life, and now you have to tend to the marriage garden, you know, trying to put the needs of your partner, spouse, significant other before yours to some extent.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, tending to the marriage, though the the marriage garden, you got to tend to it.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: Whatever garden it's not tended to, it's gonna wilt, and we won't know that.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: Now, if there's betrayal in a marriage, now you've created a third garden, and now you have to specifically water that be that trust rebuilding garden.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, and that's gonna take different water, different work, different attention, which is why a lot of times, and I know I'm digressing all over the place, but a lot of times No, you're doing great.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: This is great.
28:29
SPEAKER_02: A lot of times I'll be talking to uh let's just take let's just take the example of a male-female couple, and let's just take an example of the male steps out and has a betrayal or a broken trust.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, uh, what's interesting is they'll come and say, Well, Mr.
28:45
SPEAKER_02: J, um, I asked my wife how she's do doing today.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: And doesn't that tell tell her that I care and that I love her or whatever?
28:53
SPEAKER_02: And I'll say, It does, it does, but here's the deal.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: How you're doing today is coworker talk.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: How you're doing today is marriage talk.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: What I need is for you to specifically water that betrayal garden.
29:08
SPEAKER_02: So instead of how are you doing today, what she needs to hear is what triggers did you have today you want to share with me?
29:17
SPEAKER_02: What did I do today to make you feel unsafe?
29:20
SPEAKER_02: What can I do tomorrow to make you feel safe?
29:23
SPEAKER_02: What you gotta water that specific garden.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what a lot of, and I'm not downing any mental health professional at all, but I think unless you're betrayal trauma informed, betrayal trauma trained, I think unintentionally you do cause more damage when someone's coming to you with betrayal trauma, because a lot of mental health professionals will just gear towards the marriage garden, not understanding that the person who stepped out created a whole new garden that needs to be watered and tended to.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: No, I think that's wise.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: Is there a um is there a common factor or common reasons that betrayal happened?
30:04
SPEAKER_00: Because primarily you said you're mostly doing relationship betrayal, right?
30:09
SPEAKER_00: Is where the source of is there a a common reason that this happens in relationships that that you found?
30:16
SPEAKER_02: Or okay, so you just asked a very loaded, wonderful six million dollar question.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, and um so let me just say this, and and this is where I'm probably gonna upset some of your listeners.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to start with they have found a genetic component to a thrill gene that they have found in many people who cheated.
30:48
SPEAKER_02: Now, this does not mean that I'm uh saying that people are born this way.
30:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: Because even if you are born this way, you still have autonomy to make certain decisions.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: But what I am saying is there is a gene, and I think it's called I I can't believe I don't have this.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: It's it's something like it's um DD4 something.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's a it's actually an epigenetic.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: So it sits on our genes, and it's people that seek thrill, thrill seekers.
31:20
SPEAKER_02: Um not every thrill seeker cheats, but a great majority of cheaters thrill seek.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, make sure.
31:28
SPEAKER_02: Number two, you find again, I don't want to scare anybody and upset anybody.
31:33
SPEAKER_02: You do find a lot of dismissive, avoidant personality character types uh in roles of betrayal.
31:41
SPEAKER_02: Now, I know if anybody's listening, they're gonna be screaming right now.
31:44
SPEAKER_02: Nobody finds their way cheating.
31:45
SPEAKER_02: It I get that, but I'm saying these are components that lead to um there's many components that lead to cheating.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: Right.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying these are some of them.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: Um uh uh people that struggle with um uh needing outside validation, that's an undercurrent.
32:05
SPEAKER_02: Um a lot of men that have what's called the hero complex.
32:09
unknown: Right.
32:09
SPEAKER_02: Mr.
32:10
SPEAKER_02: J, she was down and out, and she was out of a job, and she has three kids, and you know, she came to me and it just made me feel like I was healing and helping, and you know, it's hero complex.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, so so there are some undercurrents, but I'm telling you something.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: What I I I do put emphasis on that because you need to heal uh the components that led to strength so it doesn't repeat it right.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: There's no doubt, right?
32:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, there's also um uh a lack of uh internal intimacy.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: So what we do as people, we I have issues, we all do.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what do we do with these issues?
32:56
SPEAKER_02: We immediately want to numb, distract, avoid.
33:00
SPEAKER_02: So, for example, um, I'll use me as an example, and this isn't accurate, I'm just giving you an example.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: Let's just say I'm feeling something I don't like to feel.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna run to my pantry for a snack.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if I feel something I don't like to feel, let me go watch a crime show.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: Uh there's people that cut, cutters.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: They feel things they don't want to feel, let me cut.
33:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: Uh there's people that want to numb, distract, and avoid with alcohol, numb, distract, and avoid by going to the casino, numb, distract, and avoid by sexually acting out, numb distract and avoid by doing a drug.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: All these are drug of choices.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: And um, so and that's because people lack an intimate relationship with themselves.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: And it's very difficult when you don't have an intimate relationship with yourself to have that intimate connection with somebody else.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and and if you did, then when you're having certain types of feelings or thoughts, you could go to your partner and say, Listen, I'm feeling a disconnect, and that's kind of scary because I'm gonna be honest with you, and I know this is gonna be a tough conversation.
34:07
SPEAKER_02: I was at the grocery store today, and not only did I give somebody a double look, I started to actually hang on that for a little while.
34:14
SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to do that.
34:15
SPEAKER_02: I want you to be my person.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: So, but people don't do that.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: Instead, they numb, distract, avoid, and then all of a sudden, something comes up within them, and then it it's another added component that leads to an affair or be or whatever.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: Because I always say infidelity starts with a thousand micro justifications.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: Right.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: Well, let me just look for one more second.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: Well, let me just say hi.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, let me just laugh and flirt.
34:42
SPEAKER_02: Well, let me just fling my hair and say you're so cute.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: Well, let me just touch them on their hands.
34:47
SPEAKER_02: A thousand justifications happen with infidelity.
34:51
SPEAKER_02: You have to have an intimate relationship with yourself to help you have an intimate relationship with the person you're with, um, to make sure that you prevent any components that would lead to division and ultimately find yourself open to crossing that line.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's pretty that's fascinating because uh I was having uh, you know, my my daughter's uh 17, so that's a the teens are a really tough, tough age in life because you're I can try to figure out what you are and who you are, and all this.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: And and because I've so but just having this conversation about self-acceptance, self-love, and um, you know being able to then project when it comes to like friendships and relationships, um that the key is like first loving self and accepting self.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: And then what I told her is when you can accept other that acceptance is gold.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, every everybody, every single person on the planet, there are no exceptions, deep in their heart wants to be accepted for who they are, right?
36:02
SPEAKER_00: And when you can offer acceptance to people, uh you're you're you're offering them something that is worth gold.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can you can have a million friends just by being able to accept people and let them know that hey, you accept them for who they are, but it's very difficult to do for yourself too, because we need that too.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: And um, so part of part of I think what you talk about into having an intimate relationship with yourself when you're saying that, what I'm thinking is being able to look at yourself completely and honestly, and just accept it.
36:46
SPEAKER_00: All your foibles, all your all your like uh weaknesses or the things that you wish were different, or your decision choices, um, maybe times when you wanted to make a different choice but didn't, just being able to look at all that honestly, and and to me, it's like having a conversation with yourself and and just being able to be honest with yourself and being okay with yourself, right?
37:17
SPEAKER_00: It sounds like it to people that were because I'm 55, my generation, previous generations, there wasn't any of that kind of conversation.
37:28
SPEAKER_00: It was like it was all about what you did, being being an honest person, being a person of faith, doing uh productive things in society and all this stuff.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: There's really no conversation.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember ever growing up with conversations about loving yourself, accepting yourself, that kind of thing, maybe.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: But um, so when you talk about intimate, that's my take on the intimate relationship with yourself.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: Is what's your take on it?
37:57
SPEAKER_00: That I are there other things you would add to that, or am I kind of like, are you sort of in agreement with me?
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Where do you sit when you when you say that intimate conversation or relationship with yourself?
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Is that what you mean, or are there other things to it?
38:13
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know what?
38:14
SPEAKER_02: Let me just use you as an example.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: How about that?
38:16
SPEAKER_00: Sure, yeah, absolutely.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: You are a dad.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: You you uh love your child, you are as sometimes as your patients are tested, you try to be patient with your kids.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're patient with your kids.
38:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, you will want to encourage them, inspire them, love them, show them that uh they're wonderful, they're unique.
38:41
SPEAKER_02: I have a teen, so sometimes I can be challenging.
38:44
SPEAKER_02: I get it.
38:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's um you want to tell your child that person's not healthy, don't hang out with them.
38:50
SPEAKER_02: You want to tell your child, you know, I want you to drive and I want you to to strive, um, but I also want you to have boundaries.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: If if if this is gonna overwhelm you, don't take on this responsibility.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: Don't say yes to this person when you know you got homework.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: You're doing this because you love them.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: Do we do that with ourselves?
39:08
SPEAKER_02: Do we protect ourselves?
39:10
SPEAKER_02: Do we do we tell ourselves, I'm uh no, don't overextend yourself.
39:15
SPEAKER_02: That's not good for yourself.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: So we need to look at ourselves as we are the parents of our inner child, and are we loving them, accepting them, and protecting them as a parent would?
39:28
SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm talking about.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's tough to do.
39:31
SPEAKER_00: I I've often told people, um, you got to be your own biggest fan, you know.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh what's you know, what's tricky is you have like, and I found this easy with people, they're or or common with people is like they're easier on them others than they are themselves, right?
39:53
SPEAKER_00: For themselves, they uh like if like when you say hey you gotta protect yourself, don't overextend, don't overwork like that.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: When I try to do that with myself, I hear don't be lazy, right?
40:05
SPEAKER_00: So I would never say that um to to my kid because like my my both my kids are high achievers, and and you know, so we've had conversations about managing that and and choosing what's the most important things to do, and including like self-care in that kind of program and all that kind of stuff.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: Um but when I when I talk to myself about self-care, it's like hey, don't be lazy, man.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: You got you got bills to pay, you got shit you got to take care of, you know what I mean?
40:41
SPEAKER_00: And that comes from upbringing and and that kind of thing.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: So it it's tricky, right?
40:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, at least for me, to to be able to.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: I can offer grace to other people, but for myself, I'm a hard ass, you know.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people have said that, especially military people.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: Military people are are this sort of we're we're trained, you know.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: You do basic training and all this training you go through.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: Um talk about hero complex, right?
41:11
SPEAKER_00: We all got to be heroes, and heroes self-sacrifice, heroes give everything for others, all that.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it can be hard to like find that balance.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, one of the questions we have to ask ourselves though is am I my own am I my own hero?
41:30
SPEAKER_02: Am I my own advocate?
41:32
SPEAKER_02: You know, um one of the things that I say a lot is that it's good to be a good human, it's good to offer your help, your services, your grace, whatever.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you you have to be very mindful.
41:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm very big on peace, inner peace.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: I always say to people, if it costs you your peace, the price is too high.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, a lot of times what I find is that people are so busy ensuring that there's peace around them, but it's at the cost and the expense of the peace within them.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: Right now what happens is this is where, you know, eventually depression can set in, self-hatred could set in.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, I always say your cup has to be full.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: Your cup has to be full, and you're allowed to be selfish.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: Your cup has to be full, and you want to know why?
42:32
SPEAKER_02: Because everything in your cup is for you, everything overflowing out of your cup is for everybody else, but you cannot pour from an empty cup, so you need to be selfish with crushing you so you can benefit those around you.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: Um but you have to start with um with uh and you know something?
42:57
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't even say your what you just said, your narrative, I wouldn't even say your narrative is all that unhealthy.
43:03
SPEAKER_02: You might want to reframe it a little bit, like you know, yeah, you have responsibilities and you're a good person, so keep on keeping on, you know, whatever, as opposed to being lazy.
43:12
SPEAKER_03: Right.
43:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, but um, but but really I think that we all have an inner child.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: I think for the most part, our parents did I I say this carefully, the best they could.
43:25
SPEAKER_02: And I say that because I don't think any parent, or very few, ever say, you know what, I want to bring kids into the world so I can damage the hell out of them.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: Right, that's right.
43:37
SPEAKER_02: That might be the outcome of their parenting, but I don't think that was their intention.
43:41
SPEAKER_02: And but so what we need to do as adults is to say, I gotta be the parent to my inner child um that they deserve, because my parents, for whatever reason, didn't have the capacity or what have you.
43:53
SPEAKER_02: So now I gotta step up and be that parent to my inner child.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I love that.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the things Things I love about doing podcasts is I always grow from them.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it doesn't matter if no one hears this podcast and people will, but it's like every single one of them, I take away from them like a learning lesson for myself.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: I feel better about me every time we do a podcast.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: So you're doing a great job.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: What I'd love to do is because I have my own ideas about this, but tell me how this how this plays into betrayal trauma.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, why is this an important element of avoiding either betrayal trauma or integrating it?
44:34
SPEAKER_00: Or how does this kind of uh concept of um being a whole person being a being a a um you know a more uh cupful kind of thing plays into relationships, the importance of it and and creating a relationship where there's not betrayal or there's recovery from betrayal or there's re-establishing of trust.
45:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
45:02
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know something, listen, just like a a house that's built on a strong foundation is going to weather a good majority of the storms.
45:14
SPEAKER_02: When we rebuild ourselves and we create a healthier foundation, it's better for both the person who stepped out and the person who needs to heal from their stepping out.
45:26
SPEAKER_02: Which, by the way, let me just say this uh, and and I also probably frustrate a lot of people by saying this.
45:33
SPEAKER_02: I have just as much heart and compassion for the person who was betrayed as I do for the betrayer, because nobody healthy, happy, and healed steps out of their relationship.
45:46
SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
45:47
SPEAKER_02: So um I don't like what they did.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: I I they and of course they profoundly, deeply destroyed the person they're with.
46:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
46:01
SPEAKER_02: Um but I would not be as effective as I as I am if I did not have the heart and capacity um for the person who stepped out as much as the person who's grieving from them stepping out.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: Now, um one of the things is when we are on more of a solid ground, I'm not gonna say it prevents, but it reduces betrayal.
46:27
SPEAKER_02: When we are on solid ground, we know who we are, we uh know our our likes, our dislikes, our expectations, we have boundaries.
46:39
SPEAKER_02: More importantly, we enforce our boundaries, we listen to our intuition.
46:45
SPEAKER_02: We there's so much that you're healthy that'll help prevent betrayal.
46:50
SPEAKER_02: That's number one.
46:52
SPEAKER_02: From the betrayed, from the betrayal, betrayed person, uh, from the person who betrays point of view, when they are healthy, um, they have better coping mechanisms, they have better boundaries, they have better communication.
47:06
SPEAKER_02: So that prevents so when both people come together and you're healing, you're really almost um with absolution preventing a further betrayal.
47:20
SPEAKER_02: Because now you're in a relationship where stepping out is an impossibility.
47:26
SPEAKER_02: Because I always say the person who stepped out, when they do the healing work, uh, it's not even possible for them to step out again.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: They're they're a different person.
47:38
SPEAKER_02: They look the same, they talk the same, they walk the same, they smell the same, but they're completely different.
47:43
SPEAKER_02: They're coping mechanisms, their boundaries, their outlook on life, their self-love, their self-they are a completely different person.
47:52
SPEAKER_02: Now, the other thing is let's just say it's it's it's it's less common, but it does happen.
48:01
SPEAKER_02: Let's just say while people are healing, there is another betrayal.
48:09
SPEAKER_02: Well, the person who is betrayed, if they've done a lot of work, a lot of work to understand why this happened, to understand where where was my uh why did I ignore pink and red flags?
48:24
SPEAKER_02: Why did I not enforce certain boundaries?
48:26
SPEAKER_02: Once they're starting to heal, let's just say there is another betrayal, oftentimes they're at a point where they're like, I don't like this, and uh I have work to do, but I also understand it had nothing to do with me.
48:43
SPEAKER_02: So that whole personalization aspect of it is now gone.
48:47
SPEAKER_02: So it's very important to really heal from a fundamental standpoint both parties, because that will solidify um that there won't be another compromise in the relationship.
49:02
SPEAKER_02: Um because of many things.
49:05
SPEAKER_02: You know, the one person has stepped up and understands um I have a different outlook, I have different character, I have different um uh uh boundaries, I have different outlook on like I have different coping mechanisms, and the other person now um has a whole different uh understanding and and they're healed.
49:23
SPEAKER_02: So healing together is is uh is is mandatory.
49:27
SPEAKER_02: And and which leads me to say this last point there's I a lot of couples come to me and say, Mr.
49:33
SPEAKER_02: J, he or she cheated on me, so fix them.
49:37
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
49:39
SPEAKER_02: You are both in a boat and you both have an oar.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: The only way you're gonna move forward is if you move together.
49:47
SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna come to me and just sit back with your oar and you're in the person you it is oaring that did the damage, you know what happens when you're in a boat and only one person oars?
49:56
SPEAKER_02: You circle the drain.
49:58
SPEAKER_02: No, yeah, right.
49:59
SPEAKER_02: You both need to, you both have jobs, and I know it's frustrating because the person who was betrayed never applied for a job, but now they have a job.
50:08
SPEAKER_02: And I but if you want to rebuild, you both have to paddle, and and and I'll get you into calmer waters, but both parties have to do a lot of work.
50:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so are there do you find a lot of cases where um like a a relationship can't can't be healed or savaged because it's uh only one person is really really willing to do the work?
50:33
SPEAKER_02: That is one component of it.
50:35
SPEAKER_02: That is one component.
50:36
SPEAKER_02: First, let me just say this.
50:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I do apologize, I have a hard stop on the opportunity.
50:40
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I have a comment.
50:42
SPEAKER_02: Let me just say this.
50:44
SPEAKER_02: I have never ever ever ever met a couple that, regardless of what they went through, and let me tell you, I can tell you horrific stories.
50:55
SPEAKER_02: I've never met a couple that no matter what they went through, if they were determined, motivated, and committed to healing and rebuilding, nothing is gonna stop them from doing so.
51:07
SPEAKER_02: I've also met couples where, in my opinion, really you're gonna divorce over that?
51:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but because one or both are not committed or determined, the marriage is over.
51:19
SPEAKER_02: So both parties have to be determined, motivated, and committed.
51:23
SPEAKER_02: And once they are, they could walk through hell.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, but both parties have to be determined.
51:31
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and if only one is, you're gonna circle the the boat.
51:35
SPEAKER_02: You you know, there's no moving forward.
51:38
SPEAKER_02: There's no moving forward, yeah.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: So you can you can work on healing yourself or recovering and integrating your own experience, but you can't save the relationship in those kind of cases.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so because we're out of time, this has been great.
51:51
SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
51:53
SPEAKER_00: Just let people know it.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: Do you have a website?
51:56
SPEAKER_00: What's the best way to get in touch with you?
51:58
SPEAKER_00: What's what's the best way to get uh some uh support from you?
52:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:04
SPEAKER_02: Uh my website is easy, in my opinion.
52:06
SPEAKER_02: It's mrjrelationshipcoach.com.
52:09
SPEAKER_02: But even if people never want to talk to me, see my silly face, hear my weird voice, work with me, whatever, just come to my website because I offer a lot of free resources.
52:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, again, it's Mr.
52:19
SPEAKER_02: J Relationship Coach.com.
52:21
SPEAKER_02: I have podcasts, I have videos, I have this.
52:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm all over social media.
52:25
SPEAKER_02: I don't monetize anything at all.
52:27
SPEAKER_02: I made sure of that.
52:28
SPEAKER_02: I just want to give out free information.
52:30
SPEAKER_02: So feel free to check me out, anybody.
52:32
SPEAKER_02: And like I said, just follow me on social media just for the tips and techniques.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: I try to upload a uh video every day, and I call them the my my daily dose of vitamin J.
52:41
SPEAKER_00: Great, thanks so much.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: It was great having you.
52:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I really appreciate it.
52:45
SPEAKER_00: We'll say goodbye for now, but uh, you've been a blessing to me, and I know that you're helping a lot of people.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much.
52:52
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.