Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Borderline Personality Disorder: Courts, Recovery & Reform with Shehrina Rooney

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Borderline Personality Disorder: Courts, Recovery & Reform with Shehrina Rooney · It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People

• Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with very difficult and challenging situations, typically involving someone with a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:22): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:23): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute where we focus on training, consulting, coaching, all kinds of things, educational programs, all to do with high conflict. And today we are joined by a very good friend and colleague, Sena Crespi, formerly Sena Rooney. I've known her for a long time as Sena Rooney, so this is new for me. Hi Sena. Hi. Hi, welcome. Hi Bill. I'm just absolutely thrilled. So a little background for our listeners. Sena and I met through a nonprofit called The Black Sheep Project, must have been 10 or more years ago, which was focused on helping those with borderline personality disorder. And Sina had been invited in as someone who had lived experience with this and was in recovery and had a ton to offer, and there was going to be a movie about BPD and she was the script consultant. It ended up not working out, not anything to do with her, it was an organizational thing, but it was a really interesting, interesting project and that's how we got to know each other. Speaker 1 (01:33): So that was the rainbow on the whole thing. So Serena and I started talking about what could be helpful for anyone in the BPD world. There were a lot of books on borderline personality, most written from a clinical perspective, which left people struggling to get through them or they were memoirs written from a pretty dark and maybe scary perspective. So I asked her what's worked in the past in other areas, and I remember you saying Sena, the big book in Addiction and Recovery. So we settled on the big book on borderline personality disorder and you put your mind to it and wrote this ginormous book, Speaker 2 (02:20): An excellent book. It's so excellent to get on the inside of what's going on and what to do Speaker 1 (02:28): And not just filled with clinical and darkness, but to also show I help parents, help family members, help partners, help children, help clinicians, help those who live and struggle through this know what to do. And I think also get maybe some validation and support that I'm not alone in this thing that's made things hard for me. So I know it's been a big hit. And we were just talking before we went on air when we published that book and that was 2017, so it's eight years old and I know a lot's happened in your life. Serena, I wanted to say one more thing about you had a growing YouTube channel called Recovery Mom that was all about borderline and recovery through it and had I think, what did it grow to? Speaker 3 (03:22): I have a 30,000 Speaker 1 (03:23): Subscribers. Speaker 3 (03:24): That's Speaker 2 (03:25): Fantastic. Speaker 1 (03:25): 30,000 subscribers. So what's happened to the channel? Because I refer a lot of people to your channel and it's still there, but there are no videos and you had hundreds of videos. Speaker 3 (03:37): I know so much has happened. As you know Megan, well, since the book was published, unfortunately during the end of my time doing Recovery mum, I was putting out videos. I kind of started to feel like a bit of a fraud. I was in quite an abusive relationship at the time. I'd ended the abusive relationship, but there was still forms of abuse going on and my mental health was really struggling. It was really difficult because I put these videos out there. I wanted to give everyone so much hope. I was in recovery and always said, my life is good. You can turn your life around. And yet in my personal life I was really struggling. Unfortunately, things spiraled. I'm actually going through a court case at the moment, which I can talk to you about at some point just because it's really highlighted how judged those of us with BPD are. Speaker 3 (04:33): And it came as a real shock to me because I think I've not spiraled. I am in recovery. I'm not a bad parent, and yet because I have this diagnosis, it was really kind of frowned upon and obviously an ex-partner who I'm going up against who I'm saying this is what's happened, he was the abuser. It's kind of just being brushed under the carpet because they're seeing BPD. And so nothing else matters. Obviously I'm the problem because I have BPD and the ex-partner has used that in the court case time and time again, it's due to BPD due to BPD and it's coming up continually. And I just think, no, this isn't due to BPD. Certain things happened. I mean obviously he's got his spin on it and changed it, but it wasn't because of the BPD, it was because I was in an abusive relationship. You were putting me through talk. Since the breakdown of the relationship, I've actually been diagnosed with PTSD. I'm having to do counseling and different trauma therapy for that. But Speaker 3 (05:51): I'm going into the court case and again, the professionals aren't seeing any of the trauma. Anything that I've been through, all the work I'm putting into recover from the PTSD, all that is the PD. And because of this, I've actually had to take all my privatize, all my videos, kind of close the channel down because for anyone that used to watch my videos, you'd see I was an open book. I was really honest, bad and the ugly. I really, I didn't hide anything. I did some horrid things throughout my life that I was not proud of, but I would tell people and say, look, this is who I was. That's not who I am today, but this is who I was and yet now years later, this is being used against me. So I thought I'm just going to shut the channel down. It was really horrific. Speaker 3 (06:48): Like going back, what, four or five years ago I was getting abuse, I don't know from who now I was getting text messages, my house was vandalized messages describing what I was wearing. I had to go to the police and the police said, well, you've got a big channel with lots of subscribers. It could be one of them doing it, which I didn't believe because the subscribers that I had, I was really close with. We kind of built a kind of online relationship where we'd talk and I could help them. I'd always tried to reply to everyone, but it got so bad I had to have panic alarms put in my house. So for that reason, I came off all social media and I kind of hidden away. This is the first time I'm back and I'm online and I feel very, very nervous because last time I did it, I didn't have PTSD then and I do now. So yeah, I'm in a very different place. Good things have happened. I met a wonderful man a few years ago. We got married over a year ago now, and we welcomed our beautiful son last summer. He's Nick coming on nine months old. So good things have happened, but it is been very much like this. Speaker 2 (08:11): I just want to comment that you're such a good example of the difference between being in recovery and the before times because that's where your insights in the book are so helpful to understand what was going on when you were active in your BPD. But in recovery and as a lawyer, I've just constantly had that same struggle of trying to explain to other lawyers and judges that being in recovery is a world of difference and whether it's alcoholism or BPD or other issues because I find people in recovery in many ways are the healthiest people around because you're consciously practicing good ways of living. And so I just want to give you a lot of credit and also add one of the most important things I think is self-awareness and you have so much self-awareness and not only is that helpful in your own life, but it's helpful for other people to learn because you were living it. And now you can tell what that was like. It's like Viktor Frankl in the concentration camp saying, I kept going because I knew I could tell my story. So we so appreciate you telling your story and also being on today. Speaker 1 (09:37): Yeah, I guess I see this as being very helpful for the legal community and particularly in family court because there is this big thing of BPD being a scary, scary disorder and we talk to judges, we talk to lawyers and what do you do with this? Well, they don't know what to do and it seems to have a big red banner on it or circle with the cross and someone who's very, very scary. So if you had five minutes with the judge and a judge is asking you, look, I have all these cases where one side's bringing up BPD and that the other parent has BPD, and that means they're all bad and I don't even know what it is, but it must be very bad because they're saying it's bad and there's some bad behaviors there. So I think that parents shouldn't have time with their children or very much time or all these restrictions around it. And they say to you, Sena, tell me what is BPD and what should I do about it As a judge, I know big question Speaker 3 (10:48): Is where to start, where to start. Unfortunately, the name BPD has a huge stigma attached to it. We know that. I mean I'm comfortable with the name borderline personality disorder, but I think a lot people it does. It's a dirty word basically. I saw it used, I don't know if you followed a few years back, the Amber heard Johnny Depp trial and in the comments, the amount of people that were saying she's BPD, and now I'm very much on Johnny Depp's side. I don't believe she's BPD, I believe she's a narcissist. But the two often get confused and again and again, I was seeing in the comments and I was getting so frustrated because it's just BPD, it's just BPD. And I'm like, no, that's not, it's narcissism. It's not BPD. I would say to a judge, if you've got someone with BPD in front of you, the advice I would say, are you talking about if children are involved? Speaker 3 (11:52): If there's children, yeah. First of all, don't just focus on the BPD. Focus on the person. What support network do they have? What are other people saying? What are the schools saying? Are the children always in school? Are they thriving? Are they doing well? Because if they focus just too much on this person as BPD, no, they can't be good parent. It's like they're not looking at the bigger picture of what this person's like. As a parent, I'm a good mom, my children come first. Even in my darkest days when I've really struggled, I've lent on black people like my mom for support. Obviously I have my husband. Luckily I don't have those dark days now. So that's not to say they won't come. It happens. Recovery is like this. Speaker 1 (12:43): Yeah, but you did right in the past when you did have darker days, you had supports and not everyone will have supports, but I think most people might. Your mom, your stepdad, you had me, you had others in, you had your channel. Speaker 3 (12:59): Yes. You were so helpful. Yes, I did. And I'm really fortunate. I'm so fortunate to have had that. Obviously not everyone does have that, but is the person that you're saying has BPD, are they self-aware? Self-awareness is huge. If they've asked for help, they're already on the way to recovery. If they're in denial, it's a different story. But often times got a doctor, they are seeking help. It's not a quick process. You can't just click your fingers and they're recovered. But as long as they're self-aware and they're taking steps to recover, that needs to be taken into account as well as obviously the wellbeing of the children, which you can get from schools, from other caregivers, people around the children, family members. Another big thing I would say, if you have someone with BPD in the courtroom and they're going up against a ex partner, whether it's a male or female, often I have found, and I've said to you, Meghan, this is what I want to write my next book on. Speaker 3 (14:08): Those with BPD often get in relationships with highly toxic people. So chances are yes, this person might have BPD, but the other person, chances are they're a narcissist or they have antisocial personality disorder. But these diagnosis aren't often diagnosed. Narcissists don't often get diagnosed, they just have it. So they're there with no diagnosis. And you've got the person with BPD that's under the care of a doctor and the judge is just looking negatively at the person with BPD. And I feel like screaming sometimes. I think no. What about the other person? Just because they don't have a diagnosis, it does not. They are like a good person. Often they have caused problems to trigger the person with BPD and they really need to look at it as a whole, not just focus on the borderline personality disorder. Did I make any sense then? Speaker 2 (15:10): Yes, you did. But I want to ask you to add a little bit because as I see it, when someone's in recovery from BPD, they're changing their behavior and that the court needs to see what the good behaviors are. So what would you say were changes in your behavior as you went into recovery that you have now that are different from someone who's not recovering from BPD? Just interpersonal parenting, et cetera? Speaker 3 (15:39): My life before was very chaotic. Going back years ago, I drank, I used drugs. I was really impulsive. That's not part of my life today. I try to have quite a structured routine. My life before was very, I had to be around everyone socializing, partying. Now my life is my children. I keep myself to myself more so now than ever before. And I think some of that is because of the trauma that I went through having, I really kind of learned the hard way, don't trust everyone. I was so trusting. And now I said to my husband today, I said, it's awful. I said, because I used to just talk so freely with everyone. And now so self-conscious, like what if I say the wrong thing? Speaker 1 (16:33): I see that. I see that, yeah, it used to be such an open book and now I see a much more measured, cautious approach, which is healthy. I think Speaker 2 (16:42): It's more of a balance. Speaker 1 (16:44): Yes, Speaker 2 (16:44): Balance is so important. Speaker 1 (16:46): It makes me think about a lot of judges now and courts and lawyers, the whole legal profession are in a lot of trainings that are trauma informed, which is very helpful. But there's still, because they were in law school and not in a PhD program in psychology, we can't expect everyone in the legal profession to understand trauma, fully understand borderline narcissism, high conflict, any of that, right? And what I'm seeing is that as we become more trauma informed, I hope it's being helpful and I think it is. But what I've observed is it kind of stops there. And what you're saying supports this, that it goes to a certain level and then doesn't go beyond maybe the entitlement informed and the damaging, cruel, damaging informed that may come from that antisocial personality. And so just the professionals may only be seen and focusing on that BPD and thinking that they're inflicting trauma on the other parties, which may be somewhat true before someone's in recovery. Speaker 1 (17:59): But then you have beyond trauma coming back to that person if they're in a toxic relationship with someone who is cruel, who is dominating, who does want to punish and destroy. So I guess it's tricky. We're putting people who really need a genuine big understanding with a ton of empathy to handle these cases, and yet we haven't helped them understand what this is and how to do it best. So I like kind of full circle back to what you said about let's look at the whole picture and legal professionals, we can't expect you to understand all aspects of any of this, but look at that big picture and what's happening in the parenting, what's happening with the children, and look at maybe the reduction in incidences. So anyway, I think there's a lot to be learned. Speaker 3 (19:02): I think well speak to the children if you can. I know over here we have people called Cafca and they come in and they talk to the children, which they did with my children. They spoke to my children. It gives an idea on how the kids are, are they happy? Are they healthy? How they doing? If you, for a judge, I think of my case obviously, because the only one I've got to think if they look at it, you've got the woman here with BPD who he's written down, she loses her, basically loses, goes mad, and then they look at him, okay, he's got a job, he's working, he's working like doing well, it's very easy to think, well, hang on, this is the mad person. What the bigger picture is is the time that he had mentioned when I went mad and I kicked the door was because he'd locked me out my house in the garden in the freezing cold and anyone would lose it and let me in. Speaker 3 (20:18): But then because I've got, if it was just any person, they'd say, oh yeah, of course she'd lost it. She was locked out the house. But because I have BPD, they think, oh, that's the BPD playing up. That's the violent temper, that's the impulsivity, that's the self-destructiveness rather than actually this woman's been through trauma. She's just been abused in the house, flung out in the garden, locked out there. She knows her children are inside the house and she'll do anything to get in that house screaming, kicking. But I'm seen as the crazy person and he's seen as the calm, stable one. And actually it was so the opposite. I don't know how we can show judges that. I think just like if they can just hear stories of that and just be really mindful that there are two sides to every story. And narcissists are very cunning and very good at getting you to believe their story. That is often not the truth. Speaker 2 (21:30): And I agree with you, and I want to just not talk about judges, I want to talk about lawyers for a few minutes because I think there's a real responsibility for lawyers to present what you just explained is that let's look at behavior, let's look at context. Let's look at both parents. Because what I find, I've had many, I've basically been a lawyer for 33 years and one of the things that I know is often the court focuses on one parent. It's like there's a spotlight and it only can be on one person. And so if there is a diagnosis, and much of the time there isn't a diagnosis, but there's a pattern of behavior. The thing is to look at both people as you're saying, but also look at what are the patterns of behavior and present those to the court because someone in recovery, just like with alcoholism or addiction, is a very different person from someone who's drunk, someone who's under the influence. Speaker 2 (22:40): And I see being under the influence of BPD as one way to think of it. And that when someone's in recovery, they're not under the influence of that. They're under the influence of their new thinking and new behavior. But what I tell lawyers and parents when I consult with them is tell the court the three most important things, the three biggest concerns about the other parent and also the three biggest things explaining what you're doing now. And what I find is often there isn't that focus coming from the lawyers that lawyers say, here's these 20 things you should know and none of them stick. So I say think of the three most important things that you want the judge to know and present those to the court about each person. So it isn't just one. Let me just add here something. There's some research I was reading recently talking about BPD and domestic violence. There was a higher incidence of domestic violence from people with BPD, but there also was a higher incidence of victimization of people with BPD. And I think that fits what you're saying. And I think of clients I've represented as a lawyer with BPD, who just like you described, had an abusive partner who wasn't in the spotlight because they had BPD. So it's so important to look at both people's behavior, but to also make it simple and make sure to present both sides. That's what I think. So now we've talked to judge this and lawyers. Speaker 3 (24:30): Well, the thing with BPD, there is a spectrum, and obviously some are higher up that spectrum, some are lower. But also what I found from doing my channel, it was quite common you would get someone with BPD as well as NPD. So they would have borderline and narcissism. And that's where I think the real nasty vindictiveness, the cruelty, that's when you see, when it's combined with the narcissist. I've never met or spoken to someone just with borderline personality disorder who has that vindictiveness. And they can be impulsive, they can have violent outbursts, but they've not got that nast nastiness. Speaker 2 (25:14): I just wanted to comment. It's very interesting because lack of empathy is one of the diagnostic characteristics of narcissism and not of borderline personality. So that's very interesting. Speaker 1 (25:28): It's kind of the opposite with borderline, Speaker 3 (25:30): Right? Speaker 2 (25:31): In some ways, too much empathy. Speaker 3 (25:33): That's why I always say those with BPD, they're so empathetic, but often it's people with that high empathy that become the prey to a narcissist. And that's why you then see the two combined and you see those relationships a lot. Someone with BPD and someone with MVD, Speaker 2 (25:51): That's a lot of family court. There's that combination and people have to figure it out. Every single case is different. And I think lumping the term, I totally agree with you, that to me, BPD doesn't tell me much. It gives me some ideas of things to be concerned about, but what's important is what's happening in this case, what are the behaviors in this case and the behaviors of both people, and what do they need to do if they have behaviors that need improvement? Speaker 3 (26:24): The thing is, in a call case, both people are going to be putting across their sides. And I think that's why it's so important to get the views of other people, speak to the children, speak to the school, speak to doctors, because that's what I was able to do. I was able to put forward my medical notes and show, look, I'm in therapy. I'm working hard, but also what I've been able to do is have proof of the abuse because although I never went to the police and that I was very scared at the time, I did speak to my doctor and that was there on record. So I then got that. But it's hard because when you, you're in an abusive relationship, when you've got children, so often you are terrified your children are going to be taken away. So you just stay quiet and you try to suck it up and not tell anyone and think maybe things will change and maybe things will get better and they don't. Speaker 3 (27:15): They get worse and worse and worse. And then I obviously got to the situation now where I'm in court and I'm like, I wish I'd gone to the police. I wish I'd gone all those years ago to the police because then I'd have all the proof I need and it'd be so much easier. But now I'm in a kind of case where I'm having to prove what I'm saying is the truth. And I've got the other side, which is saying, no, she has got BP, D, she's lying, she's got BPD, she's made this up in her head and naming every bad BPD trait that he can think of saying, yes, she does this, this, and it's just not true. Some really having to fight at the minute. Speaker 1 (27:54): And the criteria for the diagnosis are there nine, nine criteria, Speaker 3 (28:00): Nine, nine traits. Speaker 1 (28:01): And as you're in recovery, then you have eight and then you have seven, and then you have six, and then maybe 5.5 and it gets better and better. So I think that's important for people to understand. It's like if you start getting the right help, then you do start to recover and you do get more control over your emotions. And like you said, it's never perfect, but no one is, it's going to be bumpy. And I think if people understood what a struggle BPD is for the person suffering it, that would increase their empathy. If we could figure out a way to name it something, change the name to something that would show the compassion and empathy and the giftedness of this person who is a whole person, and this is just a piece of it, it could really just change how we talk about and how we see all of this instead of just seeing, it's almost like BPD means bad person disorder and it, it's really unfortunate because this is just a piece of a person who can get better and better and it's just hard. So to put someone who is already struggling into systems, and I'm not just saying the family court system, and I'm not saying the family court system is bad, I'm just saying we're just unprepared to really understand a lot of this. And really that's why we have you here today is to help everyone understand that you can get better. It's not a bad person disorder. No, Speaker 3 (29:46): I like the name emotion intensity disorder. I'm sure it's called that somewhere in the world. Emotion intensity disorder. I like that over in the uk they call it emotionally unstable personality disorder. And I hate that because it's like, it just screams like she's nuts, she's hysterical, she's crazy lady. Emotionally unstable. I don't like it, but I like emotion intensity. That's what it is. Those extreme emotions. Speaker 2 (30:16): Let me throw in here. So Marshall Lanahan, who developed one of the most well-known treatments, DBT, dialectical Behavior Therapy, I think at one point she was lobbying for the term emotion dysregulation disorder because it's really about regulating emotions. And that's what a lot of DPT is teaching people, and it's a learnable thing for most people. And that, I don't know, what do you think of that term? Emotion dysregulation? I often use that. Speaker 3 (30:50): I like that term. It makes sense. This what it is, and it hasn't got those negative connotation. It doesn't have that stigma attached that BPD does, unfortunately, Speaker 2 (31:00): Right? It also implies that you can have regulation. I would add that in my own view, narcissistic personalities have a self-esteem dysregulation and that they can learn that they're not up here or down here, but they can be a normal in the middle. Again, learning regulation. And that's a big part of what all of this is. That's why we develop new ways for families to teach people to be more self-regulated in their emotions, their thinking and their behavior. So I would agree. And emotion intensity certainly fits. So I think we have to think in terms of what to do, what can be done. And that BPD, I'll talk about therapists for a couple minutes, that when I became a therapist in 1980, I was trained, I got my master's in social work. In 1981, I became a licensed clinical social worker. And that was all before becoming a legal professional. Speaker 2 (32:08): And at that time around 1980, there was a lot of fear of BPD because mostly people didn't know and they didn't know that people could recover. By 1990s, Marshall Lanahan started having a big influence, did a lot of research, and really totally changed the mental health community of people who were dealing with BPD. But the therapists who didn't have any experience with BPD still had the old prejudices. And I would say even today, many mental health professionals not having experience in treatment with BPD have the old prejudices that there's nothing you can do. And this is a frightening thing. But people who've learned, been trained in DBT, like I said, I represented clients. I worked with a lot of clients with BPD in a psychiatric hospital and outpatient clinic with cognitive behavioral therapy. And so dramatic changes so people no longer fit the diagnosis. So there's just so much lack of knowledge even in the mental health community. But I think things like you're doing speaking publicly, writing your book are really, really helpful. So I want to encourage you to still do that as you do it with balance. Speaker 1 (33:31): Yeah, Sena, we're getting a lot of questions and requests from those in the mental health profession about personality disorders period. And they say, look, we aren't getting this information from anywhere but High Conflict Institute. And in fact, I gave a six hour training to professionals a few weeks ago, and at the end of it, a psychiatrist came to me, introduced himself and said, I've been in the field for a while, and until today I didn't understand how personality disorders worked, what they looked like, because in school we were taught to check boxes criteria. And so I hope in the work that Bill and I and everyone, our team at HCI, what we do has, I suppose there's been some skepticism about it because we actually talk about personality disorders and others are saying, we shouldn't talk about personality disorders because the result can be a stigma against someone diagnosed with BPD, and we don't want that. Speaker 1 (34:39): So we truly want people to understand what we're trying to do is to help the world understand that what's going on and what to do, bill says what to do and not to stigmatize it. And so it's kind of a balance for us as well. And the way I've been talking about it lately is there's a lot of hurting people that are struggling in relationships. So it's sort of a natural and obvious conclusion that they'll end up in a court situation in some kind of family court or other. And we're expecting the professionals in these situations to know what to do with what can be a very complicated issue, these personalities. And so what we've tried to do, and this is the work that Bill started a long time ago, is to help the world understand it in a very simple way and a non-judgmental a way. And I think we've maybe moved the needle a bit for those who want to learn and who really want to know and want to help. There are others who are still probably afraid of it and not sure what to think or do, but I think if we truly want to help, we all have to understand this. Speaker 3 (36:09): You have to keep doing it. Knowledge is key. It's the fear of the unknown, isn't it? Speaker 3 (36:14): So if people don't know and don't understand, then they're scared of it. I got a 10-year-old son who has autism, and I was kind of terrified. I didn't know how to deal with him. He has the most awful meltdowns, and I just really had to learn about it, get to understand him, know what his triggers are, and work with him. And we're at a much better place now because he still has his meltdowns, but we can deal with them very quickly. And I'm not scared of it anymore, whereas before I was. But that's the thing, is the fear of the unknown. If people know about it, they're not going to find it so scary, Speaker 1 (36:57): And thank you for that. And I agree, and we're getting many people at trainings, I don't know about you, bill, but more and more now, people are coming to me during breaks and at the end saying, wow, this is a lot like autism. There's all or nothing rigid thinking, not just BPD, but kind of the high conflict pattern of behavior, all or nothing thinking unmanaged emotions, extreme behaviors, and then for high conflict, you got the blame, right? So they're talking about using the skills we teach with those who may have some of those behaviors or a diagnosis. So I like to look at all of this as, like you said, Serena on a spectrum, and these are just things that are happening in the brain. So why should we stigmatize BPD if we're not stigmatizing autism? They're both kind of brain Speaker 3 (37:53): Differences. And why son has awful meltdowns. He can be violent. I mean, he's young and he's a child, so it's different at the moment, but it's that same kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. And we don't stigmatize autism, we have sympathy and understanding, and we want to know more and to help. But with DPD, it's like, right, but I do think it is because a lot of people with bp, not a lot. There's a few people with BPD that also have narcissistic traits, and unfortunately those few have kind of made it seem so much worse and everyone's charged with the same brush, and it's really kind of unfair because most people with BPD aren't like that. Speaker 2 (38:45): Lemme fill in some research here. So about 20 years ago, there was a big study done in the US of personality disorders, the prevalence, and what they found was that about 40% of people with BPD also had NPD. So it's not unusual that you see that combination, but also I think it was about 20% also have antisocial personality. And I know because I dealt with these in my court cases, one of my absolute worst cases was a woman making false allegations who, well, I actually got to talk to her therapist was released. I'm really surprised I was released. But she said, yeah, my clan has BPD and something else. And I said, antisocial. And she said, I can't disagree with you. Speaker 2 (39:46): And that combination, it was the antisocial that was making her lie. And when people go, someone has BP, D or even has NPD and they lie a lot, it's often antisocial traits. And so people mix these up and like you said, they don't really know. And I think people also mix it up with bipolar disorder. So I remember a lawyer telling me one day, he says, bill, my client went bipolar on me yesterday. Well, bipolar disorder tends to be over weeks and months that you see the high, the manic and the low, the depression. Whereas with borderline, you can have mood swings within minutes Speaker 1 (40:32): Or seconds. Speaker 2 (40:32): And I think that's what he was dealing with but didn't know. And that's why so much education is needed. Like Megan said, I think we need to talk about this stuff publicly so people realize there's a whole range of difference. It isn't just one thing. Speaker 3 (40:47): Another thing I was going to quickly say is from all the research and stuff I've done over the years, one of the closest things that I've seen to BPD is complex post-traumatic stress disorder. And we often see people that have BPD have also been through trauma. If judges had someone else, lawyers having front them, someone with complex post-traumatic stress disorder, they would view that person very differently. They would think, they might feel sorry for them, feel bad, they'd want to know more, they'd want to help them. But you hear BPD, and it's the opposite effect, unfortunately. Speaker 2 (41:27): And for some people, there's unresolved trauma or PTSD in not BPD, and some people have both. That's what people need to understand that the thing we want to teach is don't make judgements, figure out what the strategy of what to do should be. Speaker 1 (41:45): We've talked a lot about women, but Bill, what's the research say about women and men with this? Speaker 2 (41:52): That big study that said about 40% overlap with NPD said that men were around 47% of the people with BPD and women were around 53% of the people with BPD. So essentially equal. And that's part of what we see. Men who are violent, some percent of them have BPD, and that's where we see more verbal from women and more physical from men. But it's really an equal opportunity destroyer, I suppose we could say. Speaker 1 (42:26): Yeah. Alright. Well, thank you Sirina so much for being with us. We've put the book on sale, 25% off on our website through the end of May. It's also available on Amazon, and I put the uk, Amazon Australia, Amazon, us, Amazon links in the show notes. We appreciate you. We really wish you all the best in your new marriage and with your family. I know you're doing amazing. Thank you for taking this kind of a risk with us and sharing information. I'm sure it will be helpful to many people. Thank you. Next week we are going to be joined by the CEO of the Arizona Trauma Institute, Candice Zu, and we'll really look forward to that. She has some amazing things to talk about that really have a lot to do with what we're talking about too. In the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast. Until next time, keep learning and practicing. Be kind yourself, be kind to others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. Speaker 4 (43:39): It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.