Latest / She's On The Money / Why Women Need to Work 50 Extra Days to Earn the Same As Men... And How to Push Back

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Why Women Need to Work 50 Extra Days to Earn the Same As Men... And How to Push Back · She's On The Money

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: My name is Tatasha Bamblet. I'm a proud First Nations
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: woman and I'm here to acknowledge country t glennyan Ganya, Niana,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Kaka yah Ya bin Ahaka Nian our gay in Mbina,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: yakarum Jar, Dominyamka Domaga Ithawakawaman, damon imlan Bma bang Gadabomba
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: in and now in wakah Ghana on yak rum Jar
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: water Nadaa. Hello, beautiful friends, we gather on the lands
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: of the Aboriginal people. We thank acknowledge and respect the
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Abiginal people's land that we're gathering on today. Take pleasure
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: in all the land and respect all that you see.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: She's on the Money podcast acknowledges culture, country, community and connections,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: bringing you the tools, knowledge and resources for you to thrive.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: She's on the Money. She's on the Money.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money, The finance
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: podcast that Knows Financial Empowerment.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Starts with saying the quiet parts out loud.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: I'm your host, Victoria Devine, and you might be wondering
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: why am I coming into your ears on a Tuesday. Well,
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: today is not just any old Tuesday, guys. It is
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: Equal Payday here in Australia, a day that exists because,
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: contrary to what the men in the comments section would
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: have you believe, the gender pay gap is real and
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: no it's not just about two people being paid differently
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: for the same damn job. So today we are dropping
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: into your feed with a little bonus episode to unpack
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: what the gap actually is, why it exists, and what
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: we can do about it.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: And to do that, it's not just me. I've brought
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: in an absolute powerhouse.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: Doctor Simone McCurdy is one of the leading voices in
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: workplace gender equality, worked with everyone from Victoria Police to
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: national policy makers, and now leads the insights team at WGEA,
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: the agency that literally publishes Australia's gender pay gap data.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: If you've seen those headlines about how your employer stacks
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: up in the gender pay gap, Simone and her team
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: are the ones behind it. Welcome to the show, Simone,
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: I am genuinely so excited about this episode, even though
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: it's a really terrible topic.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: I'm really excited to be here as well. As I
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: was saying before, it's good to meet people who is
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: excited about talking gender pay gaps and gender equality. In
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: the workplace as I am.
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  Speaker 3: It's a funny topic when we talk about it in
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: that way, right, Yes, Like I'm excited to talk about it,
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: but it shouldn't exist. So it's like I'm excited, but
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: not for the reasons you guys might think. I just
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: think that what a platform to be able to talk
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: about this today. And I just feel so special that
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: you have found the time to come on our show
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: and talk to us about this because I can talk
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: about the gender pay gap until the cows come home.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: I use your research, I quote your stuff all the time.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: But sorry to have the big dog in a big
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: chair like this is the best thing in the entire world.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: As I mentioned in your intro, you've spent your entire
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: career working in spaces that champion women's equality. What first
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: drew you to this work and what is your secret
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: to being so.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Passionate about it? Well, I was actually going to be
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: a human rights I really wanted to, so I'm not
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: surprised by that. Yeah, but that does not surprise me
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: at all. And yeah, I just I think the you know,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: I just went once I sort of started thinking about
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: this work and being in industrial relations, which is where
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: I sort of ended up just seeing the inequality, and
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: particularly in the workplace, when technically everything should be contractual.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: You know, you turn up to a place, you provide
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: your labor, your heart and soul for a certain amount
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: of hours. It's all sort of a guaranteed under contract,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: and yet it's a place like any community, that we
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: find a lot of very So I was really excited
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: about dipping into that. I think the passion just stays up,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: but I think I really started to become wanting to
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: take a deep dive into what drives things like gender
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: pay gaps. When I have my baby, it changes you. Absolutely.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: Tell you're pregnant, you're going it might change me. I'm
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: a passionate woman with a career and like it.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. As someone who also has a kid, I'm like, yeah,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: so what they say is true. I just become this
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: nineteen fifties housewife.
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  Speaker 3: I've done all the totally you know you actually like
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: up level your beast mode. I feel we become even
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: more aggressive about the things that we're passionate about because
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: we realize how impactful they are for future generations. And
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm not having my literal son grow up
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  Speaker 3: thinking that's normal.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely not Yeah, absolutely, And I think you know, part
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: of the journey for me was then going back and
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: doing a PhD. And I got to sit in the
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: lounge rooms of whole range of couples talking to them
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: about the impact of children on their work and family
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: and what policies they used, and that just solidified for
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: me that's something really had to change. So that's something
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: I think about actually each and every day icon behavior.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: So I have to ask, what is it actually like
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: doing this work day to day, because like all of
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: that is very aspirational and really inspirational, but I feel
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: like you could fall into a bit of a slog,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: like because I feel like we are pushing stuff up
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: here when it comes to gender pay gap. I feel
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: like so many people are non believers. They go that
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: doesn't exist, and like that narrative is exhausting because like
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: I'm such a factual person. I'm like, sorry, like do
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: some research, Like your incompetence is showing. But do you
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: feel hopeful about where we're heading at this point in
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: time or do you feel like we're currently just on
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: the long slog, Like what's that lack day to day?
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Because it could be exhausting. Yep. I think I've been
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: doing this for twenty two years now, so I have
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: to say, more than any other time in that career,
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I feel enormously hopeful and feel like we really are
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: on a fast track to change. I think part of
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: that comes from the privilege that I have is going
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: and talking to people each and every day, and particularly
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: going into the boards and c suites of the biggest
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: organizations in Australia and some of the greatest minds in Australia,
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: and I talk to men and women about how they're
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: leading those corporate teams, how they're thinking about it from
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: a business perspective, and I have to say my sense
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: is there is a real genuine curiosity. I don't think
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: it is performative. I think there's a real curiosity about
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: how they can change this. They know it's important, they
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: know it's important to their people and their shareholders and
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: their communities. I think the biggest thing is they want
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: to learn more about it, so there's certainly open to that.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: And I think the other part is the legislative framework
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: that we have through publishing gender pay gaps and now
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: most recently putting in place compliance targets for organizations that
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: are five hundred or more employees, it really has set
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: up the platform to ensure that those boards and those
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  Speaker 2: CEOs and the executives are actually intervening in a meaningful way,
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: in a purposeful way and doing something different. And those
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: two things coming together, I think the intent and the
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: will to learn, and the legislative environment that is requiring
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: them to step into the space on a regular and
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: informed basis, There's never been a better time. I think
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  Speaker 2: if we ever have a chance of turning, the tide
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: is now.
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  Speaker 3: And I'm so excited about it because even in the
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: lead up to this day, I've seen just more amplified
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: social media, more people talking about it, more women of
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: influenced talking about it, And I just go, this is
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: so exciting because for a long time, I don't think
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  Speaker 3: women who were in leadership positions or positions of influence,
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  Speaker 3: we're comfortable talking about it because of the backlash that
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: they would get. They'd go, well, they do, like, if
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: you've got them one on one, they would say, yeah, absolutely,
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  Speaker 3: I believe in it, like we need to fix it.
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  Speaker 3: But they weren't as willing to take to their social
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: media platforms and share their narrative or share their story
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  Speaker 3: because they'll be like, look, yes, it's going to reach
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: the right audience, but it's also going to reach this
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: other audience and that can be exhausting as well. And
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  Speaker 3: I just see so many women going, do you know what?
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  Speaker 3: Put that in the b And I don't even care
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: about the people who have hate for this. I just
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: see such a clarity in the content creation this year
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: as opposed to every other year.
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  Speaker 2: And me, I'm like, yes, this.
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: Is what I've been trying to yell about the whole time.
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: So I want to go back to your work for
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: a second. Tell me about the current organization you work for.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: So you work for the WGEA, what do they do?
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  Speaker 4: I know?
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  Speaker 2: But like for our community, what do they do? How
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: do they do it? And why them? Well wouldja? The
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Workplace Genderal Quality Agency is a federal government agency. We
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: are a small but mighty team of around sixty people
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: who on various levels either pursue organizations, not actually pursue
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: them in that kind of compliance way, but really help
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: them to bring their best data forward in a collective sense.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: So they report to us every single year. So we
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: have a regulatory function where we collect data from the
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: workplaces on gender equality. Now, what we do with that
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: data is analyze it and we send it back out
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: and it helps to inform government, for example, on policies
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: and practices that they need to put in place. But
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: most importantly, it informs organizations and employers about how they're
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: tracking on gender equality, on the metrics and the data
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: that actually matter. And importantly, we really now are trying
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: to move into a different space which is helping them
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: build their capability and their capacity, which is what my
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: team do on a daily basis make meaning of that data,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: and that's really important because it is different for each
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: organization and then build the capability and the capacity in
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: their own organizations to actually do something purposeful and meaningful
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: with that data and create the change that As I said,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: I think there is the aspiration and there is certainly
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: the will, but not everyone is able to understand how
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: to do that. And so we have this little mantra
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: at WITHJEA that we shift people from knowing better to
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: doing better, and we really try to bring in that
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: practice element to help organizations to understand and find meaning
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: in that data. So it's data for a purpose, it's
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: not just all just reporting. That's right. Organizations go through
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: a little bit of pain because it's quite a detailed
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: report that they have to do every year. We're getting
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: better and better as an agency, I think, in streamlining
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: that process. But the most important thing that we really
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: want to do each and every day is help organizations
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: to think that it's worth it. Yeah, they can use
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: that data in a meaningful way and create more gender
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: equal experiences in their workplace. For me, that's really exciting,
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: like just data.
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: As someone who has a background in psychology and statistics,
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: I just get very excited about that. But data tells
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: a story and like so it's not just about collecting
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: the data, it's about your team really extrapolating that out
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: and being like, well, this means this, and this looks
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: like this, and this is going to be the outcome.
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: Like that's the power in data. And I'm just I'm
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: so excited to see what you guys are going to
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: do this year. Because I obviously today is the nineteenth
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: of August as we are publishing this, but it is
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: equal payday to day, and I think a lot of
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: people are like, oh, random day for equal payday. It's
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: actually not a random day. How has that date been
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: decided and what does it tell us?
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's certainly not random. It's very very purposeful.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: It is actually the amount of days from the end
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: of the financial year that women have to work in
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: order to make pay parody with gross. Yes, that's gross,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: but also very cool that you guys did that, but
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: also ill, So fifty days on average. That figure comes
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: from the ABS. You look at the gender pay gap,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: they rate that at the moment at about eleven point
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: nine percent. So at eleven point nine percent difference between
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: you know, the weekly average earnings of men and women,
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: all things being equal, that equates to fifty extra days
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: that women have to work in order to have that
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: pay parent Because we aren't doing enough already. No, we're
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: bit you know leisure being, aren't we.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, we've just got that extra time up our sleeves,
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: like about all the data in like if we extrapolate
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: it out across every other area of our lives, we
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: just we just have so much free time, so it
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: just makes sense to give us that extra work. It
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: drives me insane, and my community know, I'm quite vocal
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: about this online and have been known to get in
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: a little bit of a disagreement in the comments section,
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: But every single time it comes up on our social media,
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: on someone else's social media, there is always going to
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: be that person in the comments section that says, this
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: isn't real, it's actually illegal to pay women less than
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: men for the same job.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: And what do you have to say to that? Well, look,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: I think my response is always curious. I think people
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: come to this at different levels of understanding, and I
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: think it's important certainly for me and you know, working
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: with a whole host of organizations and people. It's a
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: really common misconception, but it is actually that a misconception.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: The gender pay gap is real, and certainly the way
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: that we jea approach it is looking at a total
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: remuneration pay gap, which includes not it's not equal pay
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: for equal work. That is something very different. And I think,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: you know, some of your avid contributors have pointed out
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: it is illegal in this country to have the same
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: job and pay a woman differently to a man.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's not rocket science. You are correct, that is illegal.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: That's actually not what we're talking about, though, So sit
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: down and lessen.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it is. It is sort of a very
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: different calculation and it's an important one that total remuneration
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: approach looks at not just the pay differences between men
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: and women in terms of wages, so what you would
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: earn as a salary, but all that other discretionary kind
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: of remuneration that goes into a package, things like superannuation,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: over time bonuses. Because it's actually here that we start
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: to see the differences and importantly the differences over the
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: life cause, which I know you and your community are
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: right on because it speaks directly the things like superannuation,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: which I will jump up and down.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: Every single day until I die about this topic. Like
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: you want to talk about superannuations. Sit down, let's go
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: Like I just and it's not because I want you
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: to just be rich. I want you to have exactly
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: the same opportunities and not miss out. And that's the
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: important part here. So many women are missing out, and
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: that's where we need to have a quick conversation about
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: the difference between well, what is equal pay and then
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: what is the gender pay gap? Because I think a
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: lot of people just go, oh, the gender pay gap
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: is about equal pay for women, and that's actually a
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: completely incorrect statement.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: So tell me the difference between the two and how.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: If we're maybe having some conversations because most people listen
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: to our podcast in the morning, most of them are
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: in their cars on their way to work.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: High I hope you had a coffee because you're.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: Going to get to work and maybe you're going to
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: talk about the gender pay gap, and you might come
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: up against me that's illegal.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: What's the difference between the two. Well, the difference is
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: ultimately in the calculation, and I have to say, ultimately
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: in the intent. So you know, when we're talking about
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: like for like pay gaps, we are talking about that
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: legal framework that says it is it is just illegal
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: to pay a woman and a man differently. You know,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: you cannot pay people differently based on their gender. So
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: that's sort of a given. And as I said, a
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: lot of people think that that's what the gender pay
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: gap is about. But the gender pay gap represents the
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: total sum of the disadvantage that women accumulate over a
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: period of time. So we measure it in twelve months
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: every twelve months, and into that goes things like superannuation,
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: discretionary pay bonuses, those kinds of things, and that's when
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: you get the real picture of that disadvantage. That's often hidden.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: So I just I want to sort of step back
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: and really be clear that I don't think that any
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: organization or any manager, male or female, it would actively
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: go out of their way to discriminate on the grounds
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: of gender, for example, or probably any of the other
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: protected attributes. I really get that sense that it's not
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: necessarily a deliberate thing. But what organizations now have is
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: a responsibility to understand exactly what is driving their gender
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: pay gaps. And it's those hidden things that we often
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: don't think about. And I can give you a really
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: great example most recently, working with an organization who could
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: not work out how the gender pay gap was still
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: existing in their graduate cohort. So they bring a lot
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: of graduates into their organization every year. Then they tracked
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: them after five years, and there's a gender pay gap.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: You know, the men are getting paid more than the women.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Now they started on the same salary, they had.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: The technically exactly the same opportunity, with exactly the same grad.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: P exact exactly so all things being equal. So then
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: when they're tracked over that time, when we started to
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: break down the data, we actually saw that the men
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: were going into the areas of the business that like
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: finance it we know what happens at the end of
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: financial year, right, there's this flurry of activity to close
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: everything off, to get all your reports done, et cetera,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: et cetera. There's lots of overtime involved in that. Now,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: the women were mostly going into things like HR marketing, sales,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: those kinds of things, and their overtime, for example, just
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: wasn't available in those particular positions. So there we have
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: really a clean example of absolute unintentional bias and disadvantage
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: that was happening in a program that really attempted to
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: make things equal. But yet when we pursue and had
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: to look at the data and unpacked it, we can
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: see that there was a disadvantage. Now that accumulates over
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: the life course, you are already behind the april. And
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: that's exactly the afffect that we're trying to get employers
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: to be more cognizant of and really help them to
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: understand what's driving it so that they can stand the tide.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: And I'm glad to say that that organizations are now
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: looking at their graduates or their entry level programs with
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: that in mind and thinking about the love that I
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: love that so much, and like we are she's on
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: the money right. So a lot of people that listen
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: to my content are really excited about investing, and I
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: kin this to an investing journey. You know, at the
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: very start, it.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: Kind of feels fruitless, like the first twelve months, like
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: you've got your grad job, maybe you've just like downloaded shares,
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: yes or whatever, and you've invested your first fifty bucks.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: And like there's no real big changes.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: And then like after the first year, you've got like
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: not that many dividends and you're like, wow, my chafful
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: olia made thirty cents, Like that's amazing. But the important thing,
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: and I keep saying this, I'm like, we're in doubt.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: Zoom out, Like we need to look at the bigger picture.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: It's not about what's happening day to day or even
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: week to week. It's not even about the conversations you
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: and I are having about investing on the show. It's
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: about those little things that add up over a long
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: period of time that make the big difference. So you know,
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: it's the additional coffee money that you're investing, it's the
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: additional things here and there where you go Oh yeah,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: I did select you know, on my investing platform dividend
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: reinvestment plan, and like these small things that you might
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: not have known about that you can trigger and tweak
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: that over the long term. Then I look back and go,
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: holy guacamole, I have one hundred thousand dollars invested, and
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: if I hadn't done this, I only would have had
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: ten thousand. That to me is a really good comparison
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: to the gender pay gap, because day to day you're
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: going into these organizations, people are passionate.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: They don't want a gender pay gap.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: But then when we zoom out, we go okay, cool, Like,
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: let's look at a ten year timeframe on someone's career.
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: Let's pretend they've both done that grad program and somehow
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: stayed with the same organization for ten years. We're looking
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: at them going, Wow, they did the same degree, the
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: same opportunity, the same grad program. That woman's now on
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: seventy thousand dollars and that man's one hundred and eighty.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: How how did we get here? And it's not because
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: they're not enjoying their jobs. It's because there have been
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: a series of small things along the way that guide
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: different genders in different ways, and that could be completely subliminal,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: and we actually need to kind of like get rid
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: of our blinkers and go, well, what does that look like?
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: How does that work?
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: So just the idea that people are even looking at
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: their grad programs to eliminate this makes me so excited
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: because there's someone who did a grad program so gendered,
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: like just even accidentally, like I.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Was the one that was asked empty the dishorsher cleaning
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: up afterwards.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: But like it's just all of those things where it's
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: just like default my job somehow, and I'm not saying
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: that that's because people expect it. I think also as women,
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: I'm the first to say yes, I'm a people please ask,
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: like if you're like, oh, Vy, can you give me
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: a hand?
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Of course I can.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to say no, But like my colleague
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: he might have said, oh I can do it after
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: I've finished this report. I wish I had the balls
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: to say that, and then I didn't, which is why
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: we need wou GA to come in and kind of
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: have our backs and go, actually, this is unacceptable. Like
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: these small things are the big things, and the big
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: things change lives.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: And so Victoria on that point. I mean, I think
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: that's probably what we're g is now trying to do
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: something different because what you've touched on there is the
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: intersection of some structural things. So the way things have
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: been particularly in maybe an industry in finance. Let's just
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: say that that it is obvious, isn't it. It's yeah,
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: but very sort of. It is quite gendered, and the
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: results and the data show that. But then there's also
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: the personal and the individual circumstances and this sort of
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: social cohesion of if we are falling into roles even
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: within ourselves. And so I want to urge people, and
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: particularly women and particularly your co who really can change
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: the trajectory of their lives right now by thinking about this,
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: to think about equal Payday as an investment day in themselves.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: Yes, it might seem small because it's only the nineteenth
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: of August, Ye's Tuesday, and you're in your car driving
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: to work. You probably weren't thinking about something's dramatic. But
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: the tiny little things that are going to mean that
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: ultimately you are wealthier, you are better off, you are
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: more financially stable, you are even you have better wellness. Yeah,
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: when we work towards all these things. It's not just like,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: oh yeah, she has more in her super she doesn't
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: care though, Like it's everything, like financial well being impacts
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: your social you're emotional your financial obviously you're like your
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: literal well being across the board. And that's what we're
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: talking about, Like it's not just to be nice to
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: have few more dollars.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Hey, that's not it. That's not it. Yeah, And when
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: you say no to whether it be actually will all
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: clean up after the morning tea. No, I'm not stacking
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: the dish wash on my own morning te You probably
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: had to organize, yes, when you say no to that,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: but also to on a day like equal payday where
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: you actually do go and have a look with Actually
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: with g We've put together a calculator where you can
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: actually go and calculate the amount of helpful thank you
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: but that's so depressing and have a conversation about it,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: and then think also about how you're behaving. So when
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: it does come to things like performance appraisals, when it
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: does come to things like putting your hand up for
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: a bonus, when it comes to both men and women
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: not just stepping away from the workforce to care, but
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: how they behave and internalize some of those unwritten codes
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: and words that are absolutely real in organizations to think
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: about that and try and choose differently. And I think
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: that's really want and that can messages. It acts really hard.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: So we're not saying, oh, it's so easy, just say no,
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: like no's a full sentence. That's really challenging, especially if
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: you've fallen into being that person that your organization relies on. Yep,
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: like Sam just does it, like she just does it right,
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: and they're not even thinking about it. They're not thinking
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: about the impact long term. But long term that's going
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: to change your life. And you know, I think everything
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: I do that she's on the money is to empower
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: women to be more financially stable because money is power.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: When women have power, the entire world changes for the better.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: Like I cannot give you an example of when women
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: have been given money and they haven't impacted their community positively,
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: Like what an incredible thing to do. But it all
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: starts with these days like equal Payday, where you go, well,
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: what is that, how does that work? What does that
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: mean for me? And it's not these big grand gestures
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: of posting on social media or like me getting an
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: arguments in the comments section where people are saying that
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: it's not true, it's actually going I don't care what
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: other people are saying. It's like pushing back from the
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: things that are happening in your organization, just slowly and
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: surely that you're on the trajectory that puts you in
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: the best possible position. And it's not just women, right, So,
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: Like there's obviously like a number of different factors like
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: culture and age and disability that I think we should
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: touch on here as well to keep in mind, because
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: like there are going to be women in the cars
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: maybe going to work, or even just some of our
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: community members who don't work at the moment who are like,
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: you know, Victoria, I'm disabled, I can't work, but I
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: love she's on the money, and there are a heap
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: of them, which I adore.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: But like you two have an impact.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: But what do we need to keep in mind when
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: it comes to how the gap impacts different cohorts of women?
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: And I think this is probably something also for you know,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: maybe the CEO's and boards that may be listening to you.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: If not, so what we could do about that, like,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: you know, to actually be thinking about what that they
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: call this intersectionality. So it's a really sort of I
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: guess it's a label that we use when we look
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: at the intersection of disadvancevantage. And so for this example,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: you know, we're thinking about gender pay gaps, and we're
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: thinking about the disadvantage of women and how they accumulate
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: that over the life course. So there's a time element
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: to that. We also look at the multiple disadvantages and
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: trying to tease out and we're certainly starting to do
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: this with data, trying to tease out what the impact
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: of that multiple disadvantage is. Again, it works like compound interest.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: So you might be a white woman living in the
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: city in teaching, and so we would look at that
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: and go a gender pay gap. If we were to
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: calculate that for that cohort comes out at a certain
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: number because you know, you in a teaching industry, your age,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: those kinds of things. But if we take that and
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: think about a woman.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: Of color in a rural and I hate it data,
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: I hate I hate it because I look at it
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: and I look at all of our first nations friends, yes,
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: and I just go what it's even more unfair, Like,
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: what can I do to support yeah, it's conversations like this.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: It is it is to be really aware. So that's
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: the first thing, to be aware that actually people do
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: experience multiple disadvantages and it is again very real and
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: it does show up in gender pay gaps if you
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: do start to go through your data at an organization level,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: but to understand that there's things like, you know, even rurality,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: where you live, how old you are, you know, are
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: you a woman of color, are you a person living
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: with a disability. All of these things accumulate and I
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: call it it's like being pecked to death by a duck.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: It sort of is one thing after another after another
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: that accumulate over the life cause. And this is why
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: we want people to stop and think about this. And
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: we also want, you know, the boards and the c
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: suites and all of our HR and diversity practitioners to
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: take that pause and think about not just who these
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: gender pay gaps are impacting and the different cohorts in
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: their organizations, but importantly what they're going to do about it.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: And there's so many easy things that they can do,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: even at board level. Talking about a board that had donated,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: for example, some money, you know, it was a considerable
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: sum of money and they'd given it to a football club.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: So we sort of unpack that and guess what we
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: are encouraging them to do is to go, if you
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: put a gendered lens on that, you would see and
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: you'd want to trace where those dollars went and on
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: your website. And this is about the intent and it
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: is genuine. I don't think it's all performative. It's genuine.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: When you're more informed, you can choose better, right.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's not about you not doing the right thing.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: Sometimes you just if you don't know, Betty, you can't
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: do better.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: If you don't know. That's exactly right. And so we're
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: sort of having a look at that and going, if
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: you put a gendered lens over that and trace that money,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: how could you have have spent that money differently, for example,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: or in a way that really helped and was equal
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: in terms of empowering women. So you know, we're the
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: change rooms there for both the boys and the girls.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: What part of it did you put into your community
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: in encouraging girls to come and play football? What are
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: the ways in which you could genuinely demonstrate being conscious
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: of the way that you're giving you're giving this a
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: great thing to give money into a community. But if
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: we become more conscious of how we do that, then
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: we're able to actually stem I guess the tide of
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: disadvantage and importantly turn the tide to advantage for all.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: So that's happening in the workplace, in the community and
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: their shareholders for example, Yeah want it, and it's a
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: good thing. It's from our slate.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: We see higher shareholder return when gender equality is taken
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: into consideration in organizations. So sorry, that's a pretty good
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: business case to make it a priority. And I have
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: recently had a few conversations with people to people and
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: they were like, what the hell am I meant to
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: just start from scratch and get rid of all my
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: policies And I'm like, no, but we can just start here,
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: Like we're not starting from scratch, We're just starting today.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: And it's not about getting rid of every single policy
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: and changing things completely, although I love that. It's actually
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: about doing what you said, let's just look at one
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: charitable donation. Where did that go, What does that actually
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: look like in terms of impact? And how could have
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: we had more impact. We're not saying don't do what
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: you did, because like, let's be honest, A charitable donation amazing,
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: But what could we do to maybe have more impact
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: to make those dollars go further and actually contribute ultimately
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: to higher shareholder return? And I think that my time
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: working in corporate and my time in organizational psychology and
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: people in culture tells me a lot about you know, ultimately,
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: to get organizations and the c suite level to care,
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: we have to go back to things that impact the business.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: We have to go back to shareholder return. We have
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: to talk about shareholder value. I'm sorry the maths mats here,
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: So why aren't we talking about it more? Because like,
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: ultimately I can make you more money, I can make
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: you more popular in society, and everybody wins, Like I think,
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: and this is a flex for me. My husband's very sexy, right, so,
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: like he works in like an executive role and he
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: is always saying this isn't a women's issue, this is
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: a people issue, and like he's I love it, Like
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: this is why I married him, because like ten out
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: of ten, but like he will be the first one
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: if someone's like, oh, did you want a coffee?
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: He's like, why are you asking? Like what's going on.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: I'll get that, and like he tries to step up
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: and role model those behaviors that are he believes are
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: typically female in an organization and go, no, you shouldn't
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: have to do that every time, Like it's nice that
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: you're offered, but like I'll take all of the teacups
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: that are bulking up on everybody's desk to the kitchen
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: and like make a point that it's not meant to
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: be one person. And I'm obsessed with that. But let's
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: take a really quick break. Don't go anywhere, guys.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: All right, we are back and.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: We often talk about the gender pay gap, and you know,
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: on She's on the money, Like it's quite you could
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: be led to believe that I think this is a
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: women's issue, and that because it's on a women's podcast,
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: it's a women's issue. But what are the broader social
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: and economic consequences of not involving everybody in this conversation
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: and of essentially not closing the gap, Like why should
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: everybody become a Steve Yep, love you, Steve. Shout out
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: to Steve. He doesn't listen to my podcast. He says,
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: it's really annoying, and that's exactly.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: He's honest. What we want is we want champions, you know,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: to to really be you know, just working in a
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: different way. They don't have to change everything, but it's
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: about thinking in a different way. And then when we
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: think about the influence that you've obviously had on him,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: and then the education, Oh wait till you meet his mother,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: like ah, Like that's where that comes from for sure,
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: and it's a good thing. And importantly employees want that,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: so employees are looking. It gets back to that original
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: conversation that we had about you know, it's a contractual arrangement.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: I show up, I give you my intellectual capital, my time,
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: my heart, my energy for a certain period of time.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: I think now we're starting to see women and men
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: asking even a job interview level, what's your gender pay gap,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: what's the pay rentally of policy those kinds of things.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Now that makes sense when we take a big helicopter
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: view and think about the economic cost of not doing this,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: we might turn to things like having a look at
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: participation rates for example, GDP growth and those kinds of things.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: So a couple of figures, you know, on average, there's
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: research out there that says eight hundred and ninety eight
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: million dollars a week is the calculation on lost earnings.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Excuse me, Yeah, that's a lot of hous. What is
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: so frustrating is you, I don't know.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: Every time we talk about stuff like this on the show,
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: like my brain just immediately zooms out and thinks about
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: the bigger picture and how the biggest growing demographic of
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: people experiencing homelessness is women in their fifties, And most
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: of that could have been avoided if we'd really cared
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: about their superannuation, if we'd really cared about their career trajectories.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: Because it's all the little things, and like, I can
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: go and talk to any of those women, and I've
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: spoken to many of them, and it's all I didn't
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: know that this is where I was going.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Like I thought I was doing the right thing.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: No one's going, oh yeah, I made some pretty bad
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: decisions when it comes to career, and I didn't have
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: a good one. Like, no, these women have careers, they
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: have jobs, but like their contributions to superannuation, those bonuses
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: that bump things up along the way, that's what's suffering
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: and that's not what's being prioritized, and that ruins our society,
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: like at a societal level, this is a massive.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Issue, is at all levels. And I think you know,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: even with starting to think about and you hear the
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: conversation now about productivity, for example, you're thinking about our
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: growth and our recovery after COVID. Women's participation in the
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: labor force is one of the best ways that we
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: can gain momentum on things like productivity. And yet when
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: we reduce their participation in the workplace to this trope
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: about choices for example, or decision making, again, try and
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: lean into these things in a way that is curious
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: and dispel the myths and increase the understanding. So you know,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: one of the ways that I explain that is if
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: you go to a wedding and they say would you
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: like the chicken or the beef, and you choose the beef,
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: you cannot say anything about that person's preferred protein. They
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: are choosing from constrained choices. So women choosing to go
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: part time, using to take the lesser job or the
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: non greedy job, there's all of these decisions that snakes
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: and ladders game, yes, exactly, and it's sort of and
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: it's not just what the women's decisions are occurring, But importantly,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: what decisions are we offering? And this is the power
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: of things like gender pay gaps and data and enlightening
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: the whole range of people that make up an enterprise.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: So it's something that the women themselves would do, something
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: that their managers will do, male or female, it's something
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: that CEOs and boards will do. We start to have
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: this wider cumulative effect. But it's not about women's choices
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: because those choices are ultimately constrained, not just in terms
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: of stepping away from the workforce for a period of time,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: but what happens to them when they step back in.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Now importantly, that's same thing, and I can speak about
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: this because it's my PhD study. That same thing happens
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: to men. They reduced their capital and face discrimination in
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: terms of if they become a primary caregiver. Now that's crazy,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: isn't it? Something incredible about what's going on in organizations,
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: and that is that we have this ideal worker norm
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: that is full time, no career breaks, always available to
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: the organization, and anyone that works outside of that framework
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: is reduced capital. And so that's how gender plays out
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: in organizations because it's usually the women and do you
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: know what? It is crazy how that conversation happens.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: And I'm going to talk about my husband a lot here,
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: because when I had Harvey, my son, eighteen months ago,
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: my husband was the primary care I had work, I
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: had stuff to do. He took six months off and
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: that was the plan, and like we were both really
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: happy with that. He has a very good career. So
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: this isn't something where I was like, Oh, you can
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: afford to take the time off. It was actually just
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: a conscious decision that he was like, no, I really
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: want to do that, Like what an opportunity. It wasn't
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: because we needed needed it. We could have worked it out,
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: but like he saw that. The conversations that surrounded that
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: decision to me were insane, like just people going, oh,
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: your wife.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Doesn't want to do that. Oh is your wife taking
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: off any time? What does that look like?
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: How are you going to know what to do with
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: the baby? What are you going to do during What
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: is going to happen to your career? And they're just
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: questions and conversations that I just know if I had
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: worked in a corporate environment and put my hand up
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: and said hello, I'm having a baby and I'm going
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: to take six months off. People would have applauded me
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: for only taking six months instead of twelve r whereas
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: literal managers of my husband were saying, Oh, what's going
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: to happen to your career?
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: Sorry?
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: You don't care about women in the same way like
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: when men start to do things that you stereotypically think
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: are women's business, you seem to all of sudden actually
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: care about their career trajectory or what's going to happen
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: with your superannuation if you're not contributing for six months?
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Sorry.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: I don't think any corporate entity says that to the
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: women that are taking twelve months plus off, like oh,
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: what if you don't want to return?
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: What if?
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Like that just frustrated me beyond belief because I just thought, Oh,
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: that'll be easy, like your parental leave policy. Your workplace
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: is really good, that's fantastic. But all of a sudden,
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: it was those additional layers of conversation that we're being
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: had because it was a surprise that the male in
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: my relationship was making those decisions. And I think a
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: lot of people had just assumed that the parental leaf
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: policy was made to benefit women, but it didn't did it?
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: No?
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: So it was for me a really eye.
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: Opening conversation because thankfully we work in or I work
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: in finance and I work in this space. And like,
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: even though this conversation is about women, I wasn't having
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: my husband be like negatively acted by that. I was like, okay, cool,
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: so old contribute to super will do this, We'll do that.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: Like everything was like exactly how I think most people
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: should run it. But the conversations that surrounded that pay
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: gap seemed to take priority because he's a man and
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: he needs a career, And there really with me insane.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. They're so real and tangible. It's such
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: a great example, and I think that what we're really
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: trying to do is not I get we're not demonizing
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: anybody in any normalization. We're not demonizing men, not demonizing women.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: You know, there's lots of thing about childless women, and
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: you know that women don't help other women, Like there's
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: all of this rhetoric out there, But the fact is
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: that education, as you know, and enlightenment, is the first step.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: And you know, people do things and make decisions that
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: are often uninformed or they come from a place if
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: they just don't know better. I mean, you organize ations.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: One really profound example was interviewing a couple who had
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: worked for the same public sector organization. They reduced their
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: work hours so that they could look after their children
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: and share the load. So they were trying to do
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: a shared care arrangement. Now, when the woman put in
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: her form and spoke to her manager about her preferred options,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: it was signed off and that's all good and fine.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: When the man put in his form, the very first
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: thing that the manager said was, so mate, how long
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: do you want this arrangement form? And I'm interviewing this couple,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: and the woman went, no, one would ever has ed,
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: never asked me that had two kids, and she'd gone
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: part time. You come back early. Yeah, And so that
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: just goes to show what sits underneath that policy. That's
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: the same policy being enacted in the same organization, but
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: under different leadership circumstances. And that's when we see that
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: hidden sort of gendered disadvantage because it was assumed that
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: the father would have a temporary arrange that can't be forever,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: but that it can't be are you sure six months?
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Because what we could do is four months? And then
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: you come back part time? Where are those options? When
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: women put their hand up?
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: I think this is what has obviously amplified my passion
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: in this space because I see that the option exists.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: So it's not that you know, this was afforded to
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: you know, the person you interviewed, or it was afforded
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: to my husband. Can we please have these overlays When
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: women put their hand up and say I want to
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: go on maternity leave, Okay, cool, I'm your manager, love
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: that for you, But how are we maintaining your career?
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: How are we maintaining your superannuation?
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: You know what flexible work arrangements could I give you
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: so that you can return earlier and maybe like come
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: back at a pacede way as opposed to, oh, well
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: you can only come back to a full time role.
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: Because all of us sudden, if I told you that
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: there was a man in that role, there seems to
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: be so much more flexibility. And I think that that's
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: what drives me insane, because we want equal opportunity. I'm
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: not asking just for what the men have. I just
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: want to have the same opportunity as them.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: And then if I choose to take another six months
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: off or take twelve months off or don't return to
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: the workforce at all. I want that to be because
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: it was my choice, not because I got offered beef
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: or chicken and I only had two options to choose from,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: and I actually am vegetarian, so I had to actually
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: opt out of the conversation completely and not have part
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: time and not have full time because neither of those
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: things met my criteria. So I just it actually drives
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: me wild because the deep you dig and you would
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: have found this, and I'm honestly envious you got to
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: do a PhD one day.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: One day I will become doctor Divine and I will
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: do a PhD's area. Actually divine, it sounds good right,
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: Like I could. I could be a doctor or a
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: stripper like I've been. Both would work the last.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Day today you can do, you know what I mean?
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Like people already ask me if Divine is my stage name.
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: It's not.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: It's my literal family name, but like, imagine doctor Divine. Anyway,
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: this just grinds my gears in a way that I'm like,
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: how much more do we have to do to actually
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: facilitate change? And how do people not see this as
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: being as important as I'm seeing it like, am I
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: seeing it from a delusional side of the road because
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: it just looks like there's a whole heap going on,
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: and then from the other side of the road you
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: can see a rainbow. I can't see that right now,
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: So I think, yeah, for me, it's more about just
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: equal opportunity, Like it's not necessarily you have to pay
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: that woman exactly what you pay a man. We already
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: established at the start of this episode that's actually illegal.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: It's actually putting on the table all of the options,
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: the options, and expanding those options. I mean, I think
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: we see a lot of disparity, particularly in pay gaps
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: at the senior most senior levels. That's actually the biggest
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: dollar for dollar pay gap once we get up into
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: that because compounding interest it's like investing. Think you get
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: the worse it looks. And there's this real sense that
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: you can only be a leader, say in an organization
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: working full time. Well that instantly you know many women
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: would self select out yep of that to guys, we
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: don't want beef, we don't want chickens. That's right. Sorry,
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: what about if we actually flipped the script and leanked
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: into this to go truly all roles are flex and
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: when we're looking at our leadership programs, we're not necessarily
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: doing special leadership programs for women, because doesn't that just
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: say that they've got to make up for something else.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: How about we get all the leaders in the room
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: and help them to provide a gender equal experience across
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: every little option and the employee life cycle, like flexible
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: work practices, like recruiting, like paying pay for performance, thinking
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: about these things in just a more meaningful way. You
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: don't actually have to do anything except think differently and
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: then apply those skills in a different way. And I
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: guess you know, equal pay days a moment to reflect
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: on that, and we really want to encourage all facets
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: and areas of the business and the workplace to think
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: about things differently, not just women having to raise their
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: voices at work and having to pursue this, but get
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: informed and then think about it critically and then think
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: about taking action. And we've got lots of resources that with.
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: And I think that's a good example of it's not
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: just the women's issue, it's everybody's issue. Wi Ja recently
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: released I would say some pretty eye opening data. So
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: just specifical ways, but like specifically this year, and I
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: know you've come very prepared. So for you, what has
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: stood out the most in the data that's been recently released.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think overall, when we have a look
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: at the gender pay gap as a trend, what is startling.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: It is coming down. So I think that is a
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: really plus to say it. Yeah, it's a really positive
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: compounding interest. We want it to see bit faster extrapolate
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: over time. So this year can take a little bit, yeah, longer,
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: that's fine. Next year has to be quicker, though, and
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: I think that we will start to see that. I think,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: you know, going back to the legislative changes, we know
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: that even at the GA data showed a decline, there
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: is this anticipatory effect of having to report this kind
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: of data. So, you know, the national gender pay gap
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: twenty one point as still not great. Let us do
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: small goals like let's just get it under twenty that
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: cook and how do we help organizations to learn what's
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: going to work for them in their organizations to bring
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: that down, you know, to contribute to that in a
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: meaningful way, because that's going to be different depending on
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: where women are working at what levels, in what roles,
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: how much they're getting paid, who's entering, importantly, who's staying
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: in your organization or exiting, which is another form of
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: data that's really powerful. But overall the scorecard has shows
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: absolute potential. We know that more organizations and this is
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: the thing that made me excited course for celebration, was
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: we know more organizations are doing a gender pay gap
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: analysis as they should. Yes, as they should, and it's
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: something that that is really increased and increased in focus.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: So organizations are attuned to this starting to come on
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: their radar. What also is important is that we found
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: that there was an increase in them taking action. So
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: whilst again you know that policy to walk the absolutely
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: you can sit there on a shelf in a handbook,
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: but you actually need to pursue it. And so when
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: you find out what's happening in your organization through the
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: gender pay gap, then you need to take action and
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: importantly take the rightful action. So don't just stick your
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: ladder on any old wall. You want to make sure
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: that it's on the right wall, because you know, if
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: you're climbing up, you don't want to find out you're
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: on the wrong wall.
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent, and I feel like that really
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: ties into the theme that you guys have this year,
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: which is how does your employer measure up? When's your
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: equal pay Day? Which I guess encourages all of us
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: to have a look at our own workplaces. And the
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: real question I have here is like, how we're in
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: the car, are we driving to work and we thanking God?
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: That feels like a very big thing to be doing.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: Like how do we individually go about doing that? Because
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: good rocks and boats like, and that's not what we're
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: here to do. We're actually here to facilitate positive change,
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: Like we're not here to get people mad and riled up.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: But how do we actually go about that?
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: What should you know, my community be looking for and
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: just even thinking about, because it's not just about facilitating conversation,
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: but like thoughtful narratives that we can consider ourselves and go, oh,
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: how does that work? What does that look like?
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Like? What can we do? What are we looking for?
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: And what can we actually do once we find a
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: little bit of data? Yeah, great question. I guess there's
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: two responses to that. Well, the first thing on equal Payday,
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: if you are listening to this and you're driving to work,
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: when you get to work. Log onto the wigeal website,
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: have a look at the gender pay gap calculator and
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: find out what is the number of days for your
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: organization based on their gender pay gap, which is all
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: there on the data explorer on the wigeal website. Confronting
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: and have it.
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: Also, really use a friendly website so there's no experience,
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: not true esthetic, very easy to find.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: Go for it.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: We'll put the link to that in the show notes
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: as well, because I'm going to do nothing. If make
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: it easy as hell for you to do that, We'll
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: see you'll be on there all the time. We're old
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: down a bit. Yeah, it's not even my organization.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: I'm picking up.
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: I'm just snooping other people being like or they do oh,
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: I like drive past a billboard and I'm like, what
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: do they do?
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: So creepy? I love it.
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: I think in.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: General the community now are calling for this, and then
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: they see the connections between a gender pay gap, for example,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: and thinking about retiring and retiring into poverty, superannuation, those
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: kinds of things. So take the time today to go
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: and have a look what is your organization's gender pay gap.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: Go and have a look what they've got on their website,
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: and then I guess start those conversations about the myths
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: around the gender pay gap, and we cover those off
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: early on about it so not equal pay for equal work.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: It's actually a total remuneration calculation that considers the whole
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: person's life, cause, trajectory, and thinks about discretionary pay, superannuation,
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: access to overtime, those kinds of things.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: And the wi Gia website has like a whole section
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: of how to answer those questions as well, because one
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: of the things that you know, when I first started
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: learning about this space, people would say, oh, but that's illegal,
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: and I kind of go, oh, that's taken me off guard. Well,
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: I don't know how to respond Tonight, they have all
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: the responses and they're kind of borderline whishy, which I
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: really like. Also on my social media today, I'm going
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: to be sharing a lot of the responses to those
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: questions because I just think that we need to get
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: past the fact that it doesn't exist.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: We know it exists.
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: Here's how to dismiss that conversation really quickly and then
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: turn it into a positive interaction as opposed to it. No,
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: it's not really like we just don't need that conversation
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: and kind of dismiss it and move on and actually
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: be really productive because I will argue till the cows
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: come home. It is in my nature. Like I don't
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: know how to get rid of it. I'm so sorry,
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: but like it's an acid.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Look, I'm going to try to be less defensive.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: Acknowledged Great, that's actually a misconception, and moving forward. This
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: is what it looks like and this is how you
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: can contribute. And I think that that's really powerful as well.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we do. We need all kinds
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: of voices, and we need not just women, but we
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: need men here as well. I mean again, be like Steve,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: yes me, Steve, don't we get a T shirt?
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: Goes be the sea more like Steppe would be mortified
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: as somebody who doesn't like social media, doesn't like to
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: be is like your podcast gives me the ick. I
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: could never listen to it, like proud of what you do, babe,
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: but like like your voice on repeat, I already married you.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: I get it. I get it. But like be like Steve,
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: but happy and women. He's going about it in terms
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: of actions and so in his own quiet way, and
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: that can happen in organizations, and there's certainly opportunities to
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: do those. And again on the website, we talk about strategy,
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: we talk about action planning, we talk about a whole
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: range of things from board level all the way down
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: to line manager level, and you're able to be able
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: to find some really useful resources. My team actually run
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: master classes on a whole range of things. How to
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: calculate a gender pay gap, how to do a responsive
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: action plan, obsessed, how do you design a job so
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: that it can be a part time or job share?
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: These kinds of things. As you know, knowledge is power,
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: So the more knowledge that you have, the more power
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: you have, not just to I guess, bring that into
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: your organization, but importantly thinking about those little decisions that
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: the women themselves are attempting to make in that constrained environment,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: and to become informed about that. Why would you want
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: to select out of a job because it looks greedy?
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: Why would you want to not put your hand up
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: for a role or a promotion or apply for that job,
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: throw your hat in the ring, ask them for job share.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: Start to think about things in a very very different way,
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: and I guess what would you what we're trying to
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: do is help organizations to be able to receive that
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: ball so that when women are saying, actually, I wouldn't
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: mind being that executive leader of something other than HR
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: or sales and marketing, but I would like that you know,
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: profit and lost portfolio, Thank you very much, or I
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: will take that seat as the chair of the board
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: that we're helping. I guess firtile create to ground for
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: that within organizations by building their capability to be able
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: to catch that ball. So obsessed.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: It makes me so excited just knowing that you are
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: facilitating this as well, because there's one thing to have
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: a government organization that's like, yeah, we prioritize this, but
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: like the team inside who are not just doing the
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: work but like art champions for women and as obsessed
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: with this topic as I am. Just means that I
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: know that things are moving like you are actually facilitating
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: positive change.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: I know we're running out of time very quickly, which
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: is very sad. But if you and I were to
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: sit down, Sam and have this conversation again in five years,
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: what would you hope looks different. I would hope that
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: the gender pay gap has come down. I predict that
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: it will.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: I think I predict it too if we poor enough
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: optimism into this. Absolutely, and I'd really like to see
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: the gender pay gap come down at a national level.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: And I would also like that to happen at the
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: industry level as well, that industries are coming together in
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: a more less competitive sense. And of course there's obviously
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: business is business. You have to make a profit, but
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: there are things that they can do collectively as an
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: industry start to help and gain momentum. I think construction
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: is a really good example at the moment who are
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: really trying to pipeline more women into their industry and
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: then also make it more safe and equal when they
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: get there. So I'd really like to see a lot
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: more constructive coming together of those communities at the industry level.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: I think the other thing that I would really like
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: to see is this understanding that we are not in
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: the same environment anymore. That there is I demand both
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: legislatively but also from shareholders, from investors, from communities, from
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: employees that actually is saying we require a gender equal
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: experience and we want to find out if we're going
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: to get that in your organization, and how are you
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: going to provide that? And to see more of the
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: people who make those decisions across all of what I
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: call the coalition of influence. That's the boards and the
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: C suites, HR and U, diversity practitioners in organizations, and
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: your line managers all coming together. Educate themselves, get literate.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: You talk about financial literacy, I want everyone being gender
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: equality literate, understanding how pay gap is calculated, what drives it,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: and how you can change it. At a very basic level.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: If in five years time we can be sitting here
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: having that conversation, I would be absolutely beside myself.
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: And I will be I'm going to do that in
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: ours maybe not even five years, like let's just do
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: a check in every year.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with it.
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: I feel like it's a narrative that I'm seeing in
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: our community as well, which makes me really excited, even
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: on an individual level, when people are, you know, talking
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: about their investing journey, for example, they are literally looking
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: for organizations who champion this. They are looking for organizations
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: who you know, we talk about ethical investing, we talk
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: about ESG investing, and a part of that ESG conversation
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: is gender and I just see so much more of
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: our community really prioritizing looking into that and going does
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: that company do that, because I don't want to invest
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: if not. And I think that those small things as well,
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: just on an individual level, whether you were employed by
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: these organizations or not, decisions around that can really impact
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: the big picture as well, because we know that companies,
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: all the research tells us the companies that champion this
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: and prioritize this have high a shareholder return. So ultimately,
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: I know you said it's about business, but business is
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: better when women are in.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: Power one hundred and even just on that superfront. On
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: a closing argument, one of the things that I learned
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: very early on in my career was a woman, Carol Schwartz,
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: who is a philanthropist and an absolute gun in terms
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: of gender equality and thinking more intelligently about how we
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: create change. She said at this one forum that I
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: was in, every woman who holds a super account has
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: to think like an investor. You are an investor. You
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: are go and ask how your superannuation is being invested
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: if you do nothing else, And it was many pawing moment.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: It's free.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: You can go and do that today, and by the way,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: it'll probably put you in a way better off position
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: in retirement. Even if you aren't making extra contributions. And
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: I mean we're in the middle of a cost of
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: living crisis. We all want a good money when yes,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: and are they doing it in an ethical way? There
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: is such a thing as gender lens investing. There are
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: superannuation funds out there are a whole ETFs that prioritize it,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: like there is one ETF on the AX at the
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: moment that is only made up of companies that have
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: women on the boards.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, slagh Love, and i'd meaning exactly the point
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: that you made. It's not just about the business, it's
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: actually about thinking about it in a holistic way. And
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: we are investors. We have our hard earned superannuation, you know,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: and we should be pursuing that and we should be
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: understanding how that's being invested and to do that in
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: a way that amplifies gender equality and a more equal
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: experience for women's girls everywhere. Thank you so much for
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: joining us.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: This has been an exciting, empowering, a little bit frustrating,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: but like very good conversation. I feel like I am
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: very excited for the rest of today and what is
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: going to come over the next twelve months. O Jia
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: are doing a lot of good work in a lot
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: of good spaces, so or make sure to pop all
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: of their information in the show notes. You guys can
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: go and have a little bit of a sticky beak
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: or even maybe a little sticky beak if you want
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: to look into your own workplace and what that looks like,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: So make sure you've got access to that. And maybe
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: you could even start a few important conversations while you're
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: a work today. If not, maybe in your group chats
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: with your girlfriends.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: I have appreciated this so much, and we will see
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: you guys literally tomorrow on Wednesday for another episode, and
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: then again on Friday.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: Bye.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:02:18
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• 1:02:21
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• 1:02:25
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• 1:02:28
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• 1:02:32
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• 1:02:34
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• 1:02:37
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