Latest / CEOs and ABCs / Douglas Zarkin (Take 5 Oil Change, Pearle Vision, Avon & Victoria's Secret) Notebook Not Playbook: What Brand Love Teaches You About Leadership and Fatherhood #046

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Douglas Zarkin (Take 5 Oil Change, Pearle Vision, Avon & Victoria's Secret) Notebook Not Playbook: What Brand Love Teaches You About Leadership and Fatherhood #046 · CEOs and ABCs

• 0:00
  Douglas Zarkin: Strategy without operational excellence is nothing more than just words on paper. You can't possibly know what the playbook's going to be until you understand the players. For me, it always starts with people.
• 0:09
  Kevin Rice: My guest today is Douglas Zarkin. Doug is the former Chief marketing officer of Take 5 Oil Change, where he was brought in to lead the brand's reinvention as its very first cmo. Prior to that, he led marketing at Avon, Victoria's Secret and Pearlevision. He's a TEDx speaker, a best selling author, and this year he was named one of Franchise Assembly's top marketing trailblazers of 2020.
• 0:32
  Douglas Zarkin: Necessarily have to have done the job to be able to do the job. Leadership is a muscle that you're constantly pressure testing and constantly building. Leadership is not a one fits all approach. And parenting is the same. You got to learn as a parent how to recommunicate with your children when they enter that different stage of life.
• 0:49
  Kevin Rice: A lot of the guests have talked about how becoming a parent actually made them a better leader. Was there anything specifically that father had taught you that the boardroom never could?
• 0:59
  Douglas Zarkin: As much as it is embarrassing to admit, there are
• 1:05
  Kevin Rice: welcome to CEOs and ABCs. Real stories from execs who lead at work and show up at home. Career moves. Parenting wins and fails and everything in between. I'm your host, Kevin Rice. Here's today's episode. Welcome back to CEOs and ABCs. My guest today is Doug Zarkin. Doug, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:21
  Douglas Zarkin: See you, my friend. How's it going?
• 1:22
  Kevin Rice: Things are good. We're just kind of end of the summer and about to get back into the school year, so getting back into a proper schedule after a few months of just summertime fun. So Doug, what were some of your like, early influences that shaped your values whether it's professionally or even personally? Like a boss, a mentor, or maybe even your own father?
• 1:44
  Douglas Zarkin: Yeah. So early on in my career I worked for someone and I'm just gonna call it was really shitty. I worked for a really shitty boss. And this leader who will remain nameless, even though I'd love to call this person out, really did a hatchet job on me. Didn't teach me what it was to be a leader. Taught me what it was to be a manager. Didn't teach me what it was to be a leader. Never gave me the constructive feedback in real time so that I could see something and evolve something when it was meaningful. Used the annual review. Remember last February when we were in this meeting and I'M like, I have no idea what you're talking about, but okay. I learned so much from working for somebody that was so poor a leader that it's helped me identify some of the positive mentors I've had in my life. Ultimately, I think the greatest influence in my life has probably been my dad. And it's not because he does anything or did anything that was remotely the same to what I do. My dad gave me the work ethic that I have. I watched my dad sit at the kitchen table at night with his briefcase and his stack of papers on the phone. And I used to get mad that, why was he doing that after dinner? And I came to appreciate that he was, he was putting in the extra effort not because he had to, but because he wanted to. Because for him, it was about being great. And so I, I, as much as I would never tell my father that he's smarter than I am, he taught me some incredible life lessons that I try to instill in my kids about the idea that there's effort and outcome. And while they're not always connected, there's a pretty high correlation to it.
• 3:45
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, I can relate. I 100% got my work ethic from my father. Seeing him work late into the evenings, after we were done with dinner and after we spent some family time together. And I didn't realize it at the time, but how that was modeled to me was exactly how I started showing up in my career when it was time for me to start my own professional journey. You mentioned manager versus leadership. What's the difference there? How would you characterize a manager versus a leader?
• 4:12
  Douglas Zarkin: A manager requires. A leader inspires. A manager is worried about things getting done. A leader is worried about somebody learning something while things are getting done. A manager is inaccessible. A leader is accessible. A manager doesn't readily admit fault. A leader celebrates their flaws. Those are just like kind of a rattled off list. But I think the essence is a leader really has to lead. No pun intended. That's the hardest part of being a leader, and that is about setting a vision, about keeping people on path. But that's also about ensuring that that vision is an inclusive vision. Ensuring that you set people up for success, allowing them the space and grace to have the debate, the discussion. But by all means, once you make that commitment, that's what we're focusing in on. The importance of the people part of the business is something that I take very, very seriously. I take building a high performing team as the epicenter of the success that I will or won't have in a role. And when I talk about leaving businesses better than when I got there, it starts with the staff. And it's not just about the casting of the individual people. It's about the clarity that I bring to what their role, what their responsibility, what their accountability, what their authority is and giving them the environment for the autonomy to make it all feel good. Am I the, am I a requiring leader? Do I expect certain things? Yeah, absolutely. But that's okay, provided you do it, understanding that you're in the business of people.
• 6:17
  Kevin Rice: Is there a similar parallel that you think about at home with parenting as like a difference between kind of being more of a managerial parent versus a authentic leading parent?
• 6:29
  Douglas Zarkin: Yeah. I grew up with a brother, so I never, never had a sister until I got married and I have a sister in law and now I have a daughter who's 19 and my son is 16. And as much as it is embarrassing to admit, there are different sets of rules for both kids in today's world. I am much more not paranoid but sensitive to when my daughter goes out than when my son goes out. You know, my son's 16 and you know, like every 16 year old boy, stupid. You know, he's brilliant, he's a great kid, but 16 year old boys, when they get together are dumb. My daughter is brilliant, but I worry about the world that she's in. I worry about what happens when she goes out at night with her college friends. You watch too many movies and you hear too many horror stories and you pray to the God of your understanding that it's not your child. But I would say certainly there are different expectations or parameters and I've been very vocal with both of them about it and I'm not apologetic, but I'm very transparent.
• 7:47
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. And they're at interesting ages too, where your role as a parent starts to shift because earlier, right, you have kind of this assigned authority that says, okay, I set the rules, I determine the boundaries. But as they get to the ages that your daughter and son are, they're starting to take on more of a life of their own. And you don't have as much ability to like set rules. So it's more about influence and how you inspire them versus the actual rules that you're setting with them.
• 8:18
  Douglas Zarkin: As long as Apple Pay is not free, you have a degree of control.
• 8:24
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. Once they're off the payroll.
• 8:26
  Douglas Zarkin: No, you're, you're, you know, you're right. Like my daughter is, my daughter is a, is away for college. She's a rising Sophomore, she goes to school down in D.C. and watching that evolution is really interesting. Watching my son evolve in his years in high school, where now as a junior, like, it counts. You know, sophomore year is really the first year that it counts. And so being transparent about, you know, why is the extra effort needed, not just academically, but athletically. Like, you want to play varsity baseball, you know, you got to put the practice in, you got to put the effort in, you got to go to the backyard and throw the ball against the rebounder. You know, those. Those things I think we as parents try to instill in our children, especially if you've made mistakes. You know, candidly, I think about all the mistakes I made growing up, all of the opportunities that I squandered, and all I want is for my children to not have to experience that. You know, I'm. I'm a good example of I had things that were handed to me that I blew it, and then I had to work twice as hard to get back. And it actually made me a better person and a better leader and I think a better parent because I recognize and I can see when a opportunity is there that's going to get blown and I can try to encourage them to not waste it, to not miss it.
• 9:53
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. You recently wrapped up your role as the first ever CMO of Take five Oil Change. What does life look like for you today, both professionally and personally? Just kind of bring us up to speed on where you're at.
• 10:06
  Douglas Zarkin: Sure. So a great run delivered some really strong financial results, and I think most importantly, left the business stronger than when I walked in the door. Anytime you step into a transformational role, for me, at least the exercise starts with coming in with a notebook, not a playbook. But the first three questions that you really have to get clarity on is, you know, who you are as a brand, who you're built for, and then the fun stuff, which is how do you get chosen? And I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to really recraft the organization to bring modernity and measurement to that business and really deliver some really solid results in the year that I was there. Consecutive quarters of positive comps, significant swings and improvement in marketing related contribution, and I think most importantly, really drove a stronger degree of educated brand awareness. All stuff that I can look at quantitatively and say, yeah, it was done. Not just because I felt it was done, but the results speak for it. So proud of it. And right now I'm actively engaged in my what's next? Doing some gun for hire work, which is exciting and some worlds that I haven't played in just to sharpen my skills in a few areas, but really excited about the next chapter.
• 11:32
  Kevin Rice: That's amazing. I think a lot of people are kind of in that phase right now of figuring out kind of what's next. And so you mentioned a notebook, not a playbook. I feel like a lot of organizations expect a leader to come in with a playbook. That's why they hire you. You've done it before, you know what to do and they kind of expect that you're going to rinse and repeat. But by saying notebook, not a playbook, what do you mean by that?
• 11:58
  Douglas Zarkin: So I think the one attribute that any leader has to have, especially one who is tasked with motivating the consumer to do what we want them to do, when we want them to do it, which is the full stop answer to what is the objective of marketing, has to come in with a notebook to understand first and foremost the people resource profitability and driving and growing Profitability is at the end of the rainbow. And it's not that long a rainbow. But if you don't start with that assessment of people, then you've got to understand, do you have the processes in place to measure the progress, to understand what progress means, to evaluate progress on the way to profitability or enhanced profitability. But if you come in with a playbook, to use a football analogy, and as you can see from my background, which kind of looks like a sports bar exploded, you can't be a pass offense if you don't have a good quarterback. And you can't be, can't play a run defense if you don't have good linebackers or alignment. So I think it's impossible to come in and say I'm going to run this play, this play or this play without first assessing the talent on the team, that's where the notebook starts. You also have to appreciate the business from an executional perspective. You know, one of the first things I did when I joined Take Five was I became an oil tech. I worked under the hood and it was a nice balance to one of my earlier jobs in my career where I became an Avon lady. So I can sell the shit out of a lip gloss and I can change my car's oil so it kind of balances itself out. But you've got to really understand the pragmatism of the business from the frontline experience and sort of work backwards from there. Because strategy without operational excellence is nothing more than just words on paper. And you know My book really outlines sort of the way that I break down a business. That is the widgets and fidgets. That is what you bring with you. You bring in the way in which you diagnose the questions that you ask, the areas that you're going to probe and in what order. But you can't possibly know what the playbook's going to be until you understand the players. And the players are not just the physical people on your team. It's the category, it's the competitive landscape, it's the nuances of what's going on with the holding company, if it's a portfolio brand. So there's a lot that you have to kind of get down on paper before you could start drawing out the playbook that's going to win. For me, it always starts with people.
• 14:31
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, that makes sense. Well, in addition to Take five Oil change, I mean, you've led marketing, you mentioned it. Avon, Victoria's Secret, Pearl Vision. These are very different categories, different business models. If you were to kind of look at the whole arc of where you sit today, what's kind of the common thread of how you've operated or acted as a leader across all of that,
• 14:53
  Douglas Zarkin: it was always with a degree of a transformational agenda. Going back to my agency days, my first career was I spent a fair amount of time in the agency world and started the youth, entertainment and lifestyle division of at the time the largest private agency in the world, which was gray advertising. And there it was really developing a approach to connecting brands and consumers that was really more focused on the mindset than the age set. And so having the opportunity to lead businesses like Reebok. We were the out of house marketing team for W for Starwood, Seagram's CoverGirl, Ralph Lauren fragrances. One of the coolest projects I've ever done in my career was helping to write the brand architecture for the Harry Potter franchise for Warner Bros. Consumer products division. Those items don't typically fall on a normal agency remit. And so we started Gee Whiz, which was the name of the organization really, because we wanted to offer clients an opportunity to think differently. And that through line carried through when I went to Avon to help reinvent the direct selling model for a younger, more upscale audience brought in something called E Commerce, brought in ebase Learning, went to Limited to take a brand that was in test market Victoria's Secret Pink and really explode it nationally and expand the assortment. And then at Pearl for over a decade really revitalized an iconic brand, taking that business down to the Studs and figuring out how it could win in a very commoditized category. So the idea of a transformational agenda where there is an appetite for different thinking, different, not necessarily better, hopefully it always is. But different in the sense that the trajectory of the business isn't really where anybody wants it to be, and there's a desire to help move it.
• 16:51
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. Take us back to those early days at Gray, because you were running a division pretty young in your career, like, late 20s, and you were in front of the board. You were helping build this division. How did you carry yourself in those younger days? What did you know about leadership back then? And maybe even things that, like today, you've realized you, in retrospect, could have done differently.
• 17:14
  Douglas Zarkin: So back when that chapter of my career came to life, it was a suit, tie, suspender culture. And so, you know, I look back and was dressing like I was working on Wall street, which put me in the frame of mind, honestly, that I thought boded well for me, which was the idea that nothing was impossible, that early in my career I was dumb enough to not be afraid of anything. It was, yeah, sure, absolutely. I can tackle it. Not a problem. And I carried myself, I think, with perhaps a little bit too much bravado in the sense that anything was possible. Now, that boded well in terms of instilling confidence from the board. It boded well in instilling confidence from the brands that we worked in. But I really hadn't mastered the art of leading a team because that's not something that even though I have an mba, I don't teach you that in grad school. And so, in retrospect, I wish I had spent more time on the we at that point in my life. When I made the jump to the client side, when I became in house at Avon, that's when I really started to appreciate the importance of the collective. Climbing the hill alone, you get to the top, maybe faster, but you're taking a selfie, bringing everyone with you. You're taking a group picture. And while it may not be as quick, it certainly is a lot more fun.
• 18:36
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, sure, right. You can go faster alone, but you can go further with a team.
• 18:40
  Douglas Zarkin: Correct.
• 18:40
  Kevin Rice: A lot of people will say, like, fake it till you make it right. And that's kind of. It sounds like how you were early in your career. That's certainly how I was. Right. I had no professional experience starting this agency. I'm pitching brands. Like, we even pitched Avon at one point. We had no business being in that room against some of the biggest agencies in the world. But, you know, we just faked it until we made it. And eventually we started getting some credentials and, and it started building. But it sounds like that also kind of hindered you a little bit because you were more focused on yourself versus building a team and a collective that you could be successful together with.
• 19:18
  Douglas Zarkin: You know, Kevin, I would, I'd ask you to rethink a bit that perspective because it's not necessarily faking it till you make it, because you don't necessarily have to have done the job to be able to do the job. The confidence that you have in the way in which you think, the way you break down data, the way you string things together, the ability to see solutions that others don't, doesn't necessarily tie directly to having worked in a category. It really has to do with having worked in a consumer facing business. And so for me at least it wasn't necessarily about faking it. What it was was sort of an unbridled confidence that I could figure it out. And that helped me tremendously because I didn't know what to be afraid of. I didn't look at something and say, wow, that's unbelievably intimidating, or look at a challenge and say 10 other people have failed. What makes you think you can do it? I just went in with the curiosity and the hunger to make a difference and I knew nobody was going to outthink me. That was something I prided myself on, that I wasn't going to get out thought. And that tied into not getting outworked. And that's not necessarily a commentary on spending hours. It's just about spending share of mind time. And that's something that I even hold true today. I try to approach every conversation with a point of view that I believe is correct because I believe that I've done my diligence. The difference, the step change that's come with experience, some successes and some failures, is remaining open and curious, understanding that there is no such thing as a right answer or a wrong answer. There's just a answer. And just like there's no right way or wrong way to do marketing, there's just a way. And so that willingness to open up the aperture has been helpful in not only galvanizing teams to support ideas and initiatives, but also to really dial up the fun factor in doing what I do.
• 21:22
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, well, in the spirit of this podcast, when you first become a parent, I think like that's exactly how you're approaching it. Right? It was like, I don't really know what I'm doing. But I'm committed and willing to figure it out throughout the process.
• 21:37
  Douglas Zarkin: Yeah, and you get better. I mean, look, my first kid, you know, didn't watch television, didn't touch a screen, didn't need anything that was processed. My son, it was like, have a hot dog. You know, you want to watch, you want to watch Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, Go for it. You, you learn by doing. You master your craft by succeeding and failing. And then you also come to the realization that not everything is a big deal. And that's true in business. That's true in life. As parents, we have things that are critical to our values that we want our children to share. But you start to learn, especially as your kids get older, that not everything is about drama.
• 22:19
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, I think all of our kids get a different version of us. So every child has a very different childhood depending on kind of where they were born. Because as parents, we're evolving and maturing and we're learning as we go. Same thing with, like professionals who we lead on our teams. Right. Like they're going to get a different version of you as you develop your skills.
• 22:41
  Douglas Zarkin: I wish at times that I was a better parent because I didn't know certain things would have certain impacts. I don't beat myself up over it anymore because fortunately my kids have turned out pretty good. And I'm married to somebody who's a lot smarter than I am. But self critical is a through line both in my personal life and my professional life. I tend to be the hardest on myself because I believe that I have to set an example for others. And that's, you know, writing a book is a way in which you do that to a broader scale. You know, you put thought leadership out there to say, listen, this isn't the right way to do it. I'm not telling you how to avoid the wrong way. I'm just giving you what I did. And if it helps you to avoid mistakes, if it helps you to unlock your, what I like to call your inner marketing superhero, awesome. As parents, we do the same thing. You know, we can teach our children from our experiences. And I think I stress out more about not letting my kids make the same mistakes that I made growing up than anything else.
• 23:52
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. Where were you actually in your career when you became a father? Like, what company were you with and what started to change after you went back to work?
• 24:00
  Douglas Zarkin: So I was, I think I was at Victoria's Secret when I became a parent, and it was a big reason why I ended up leaving the company was because I wasn't going to relocate to Columbus, where my entire support system was here in New York, between my family and my wife's family. The difference was very much in the what did I do after work, what did my after work look like, what did my before work look like, and what did my after work look like look like? That changed literally overnight.
• 24:44
  Kevin Rice: Was that just in like the routines? Because now you're taking care of a child in the mornings and the evenings, helping support your wife, or was it anything emotionally or mentally that changed for you as well?
• 24:56
  Douglas Zarkin: So my wife was. Was working for a very high profile law firm at the time. And we hadn't really had the conversation on whether having kids was going to derail partner track or not. At that point. We weren't sure how many kids we were going to have. As much as you want to have children, they don't always come as quickly as you would like them to. And so we were both navigating it together. I think for me, everything changed the minute that it became truly the we. You know, like you get married and it become. You become a team. You have a child and it becomes the we. The stakes went up incrementally. I think the pressure that I put on myself went up exponentially the minute that I realized that it wasn't just about myself and my wife anymore. It was about somebody else who was 100 dependent on me. And so I think I know that I dialed up the intensity of the pressure on myself to be not just good at what I do, but trying to be great. The minute that my family expanded.
• 26:06
  Kevin Rice: I remember feeling that same kind of self pressure, maybe that I put on myself. I was building a company, I was giving 110% of my energy into this business. And I was, I was looking at it as, these are my working years while the kids are young so that I can have more financial freedom and flexibility when they get older. But there was a lot of pressure during those first few years where I had a really hard time turning off work. When I came home, it followed me home. And I know a lot of executives do too. Like, did you have periods where stress and work from work kind of followed you home and made it difficult for you to be present?
• 26:47
  Douglas Zarkin: Should I get on the couch? We're going to get. This is the get on the couch section of the conversation. Look, I still do. I mean, the period of transition I'm in right now is probably the most amount of stress I've ever experienced in my entire professional life. It's the first time that this has happened to me.
• 27:06
  Kevin Rice: What do you mean by this in
• 27:07
  Douglas Zarkin: terms of, you know, being the subject of a restructure? I'm working harder now than I've ever worked. I'm working more intensely than I've ever done. And that's not just because I've, you know, I've got some hired gun projects that are keeping me busy. That's because I look at myself and I say I am. I don't want to lose time, I don't want to lose growth. I don't want to lose the opportunity to make a contribution to somebody's business over a longer period of time. So I would say that the self critical, self pressure is probably the most intense now that it's ever been. And the fact that I've got one kid in college and one kid, you know, almost through high school.
• 27:55
  Kevin Rice: Given you are in this kind of place right now where you are probably working harder than ever, even between formal roles, do you have any sort of like rituals or systems in place that help you stay more connected with your son or even your daughter, given that she's away at college?
• 28:16
  Douglas Zarkin: Yeah, we're taping this during the summer. So they're both, they both happen to be home for the summer. They're both working this summer. So what I'm trying to do is to really carve out family time, as corny as that may sound. It's the let me go run out and grab a couple steaks and we'll barbecue. It's the, come on guys, we're going to go to brunch on Sunday when I'm done with tennis. It's the hour and a half before I end up going to bed where we're watching TV together in the family room or whatever. I am making a conscious choice to lean in. At the same time, I'm also making an even more conscious choice to listen in. Because both of my kids are at such an interesting point in their lives where I'm trying to learn about them more. When you're children grow into that next stage of life, they become different. My son is changing every day, not just physically, but emotionally. My daughter, you know, is, is working and doing internships and, you know, talking about what her class schedule is and so you can have more grown up conversations with your children as they get older, although every other word out of their mouths is broken. You know, bro, bro, bro. I'm good, I'm good, bro. No, I'm good. So I'm wondering where all that education went, but you know, you got to learn as a parent how to recommunicate with your children when they enter that different stage of life. Yeah.
• 29:48
  Kevin Rice: What does that look like? Because, you know, my son's 10 and he already started calling me bro. And there's certain, like, age appropriate ways to have conversations about values in life. And it's still, we don't go very deep. Right. But as your son's older, he's 16 now, I imagine you can go a lot deeper.
• 30:07
  Douglas Zarkin: I can go a lot deeper. But to me, it's, it, it kind of starts at a place of humor and then to, to, to sort of diffuse the seriousness of what we're going to talk about, and then we go down. So I like to start those conversations where, okay, so this is a don't be an idiot moment. And then you talk about it. I tease my daughter that she needs life skills. You know, that, that, that book smart, but you got to have life skills. You know, if you're going to go into the city, you got to have your head on a swivel. You got to know where you're going. And no, it is not safe for you to be taking the subway at midnight from Chelsea back to Penn Station. And don't even think of doing it. You know, fortunately, we have a lot of really good software to track our children. I think life 360 is the best feature on the planet. To know where your kids are, it's like putting that GPS chip in your dog. But with your kids and you know, the fact that they're never anywhere without their phones, you have a pretty good sense of where they are in the world. But you, you as a parent, much like you as a leader, have to learn how to communicate differently as they change. Just like you communicate differently as new people come onto your business and as new projects come up. Leadership is a muscle that you're constantly pressure testing and constantly building. But leadership is not a one fits all approach, and parenting is the same.
• 31:40
  Kevin Rice: Hi, Kevin here. If you're enjoying this conversation and you know someone else who's working to grow in their career while staying present at home, I'd really love it if you could share this episode with them. It's one of the best ways you can help us and help more leaders build their careers in a way that they're proud of without missing the moments that matter most. I had the pleasure of reading your book a few months ago, and a lot of these themes are reminding me of some of the topics in the book. And in the book, you Talk about brand love as an emotional connection, one that's strong enough for customers to keep coming back, forgive mistakes. And as I was reading it, I was thinking, like, there's so many parallels to how we show up for our kids as parents, to how we build a brand. Cause, like, at fam, within your family, you have a culture. It's almost like a brand. But tell us a little bit about, like, this brand love framework. Where did it actually come from? Where did it start for you? Or was there, like, a moment that this kind of clicked and came together?
• 32:41
  Douglas Zarkin: I appreciate the kind words. I think the notion of brand love really came out of my personal life. And, you know, and I remember in a land before time, before I met my forever someone, I met a bunch of special someones. And, you know, there were moments where, hard as it is to believe I had feelings for somebody that maybe were as more intense than they had for me. And that teaches you something about the power of a relationship. The title of the book is Moving your brand out of the friend zone. We all, I don't care what you look like. Have all been friended before, and you may have to go back to elementary school for it, but we've all had that moment where we really liked somebody and we worked up the courage and they told you, no, I just want to be friends. And for me, as I was starting to build consistent constructs at Pearl Vision to explain to franchisees the different puts and takes and strategies that we were employing, I was looking for an analogy that would allow them to understand the why before we got into the what. And I've often found that the more complex an issue or topic, the solution is usually simplicity. And so I use the notion of brand love the idea that when you have somebody who comes in to a Pearl Vision and they are patient and they have an amazing experience, and then you bring them to the retail floor and then they have an amazing experience, you're on your way to creating that depth of relationship where you're special. The love comes from when and what you do between purchase cycles, not just during the experience. And that was how I talked about why we were introducing a standardized CRM platform. Because we were essentially delivering a great experience, but we weren't staying relevant. We weren't calling the person back and said, we had a great date, can we go out again? We would do it a year from that point. The shift in focusing on the person behind the eyes, the idea of what made for an amazing patient experience wasn't just the technology. It was the Humanity. It was the connection, it was the curiosity that the doctor had when somebody walked into the exam lane. Tell me about your life. Are you active? Do you go outside? Do you have allergies? Do you have kids? All those things may seem really innocuous, but when push comes to shove and you leave the exam room and you turn somebody over to the retail floor and you can say, this is Doug. He has a minus two, minus one prescription. He's pretty active. He plays tennis, spends a lot of time outside. So as we're thinking about a frame for him, let's try to find something that's like titanium, lightweight. And when it comes to a lens, let's look at something that's a photochromatic that goes from clear to sun so that he can wear the same glasses all day. Now I've become a person, not a register ring up. And it resulted in creating better experiences of guiding patients into the perfect pair. And one of the small. But one of the most meaningful shifts that I was able to lead at Pearl was the removal of the term customer. A customer wants service, a patient wants care. And so we referred to everybody, whether they came in for an exam or came in with an outside prescription as a patient, because that nuance sets a tone for the rest of your model.
• 36:53
  Kevin Rice: That was a great example of bringing this philosophy to life. The Pearl Vision case study. And it eventually became a Harvard Business Review case study. I really enjoyed like reading about it and hearing about it. Is there kind of a translation again, kind of from how you led this transformation of more transactional to more authentic relationships that you've seen either in yourself or how other people show up as parents? Because I think I have.
• 37:21
  Douglas Zarkin: Yeah. One area that I really spend a lot of time on is thinking about the how. Not just the what, the importance of thank you. Not just as a fire off courtesy, but as a sincere gesture. The opportunity to recognize somebody when they least expect it. The importance of real time feedback, both positive and negative. Those are all byproducts that have impacted my life as a human being, not just as a leader. When we have a parent that is able to do rescue pickup because life just gets in the way sometimes of being a Sherpa for your kids taking a minute and just say, dude, thanks, man. That really helped me out. It goes a long way. You know, if I. If I'm at an event and I have the opportunity for an extra ticket or an extra T shirt, I always grab it and I always give it to somebody. Not because I have to, but because it Just makes somebody feel good, you know, that you're thinking of them, you know? And it's not about spoiling your children, but it's about showing your children that a small moment cares. You. You making your bed in the morning may seem ridiculously stupid, but it's one less thing that I have to do or your mom's got to do. You volunteering to take the dogs out for a walk without me asking you may seem really silly and mundane, but it makes a difference. And so as we as parents try to raise our children to be better versions of ourselves, I want my kids to appreciate that in business, as in life, it is the small moments that really matter most.
• 39:30
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. It's about creating value. Right. Everything you just described. Right. It's as kids, you have your personal responsibilities that you take care of. And then there's things that you can do to contribute to the household that creates value, whether it's taking the dogs for a walk or taking the trash out. This is something I've been asking a lot of people because I'm at this stage with my kids, is when did you start introducing things like responsibilities and chores to your kids? And how did you structure it? Did you give them allowance? Did you say, this is just part of your role as being part of our family? I ask because I'm right in the throes of figuring that sort of stuff out myself.
• 40:04
  Douglas Zarkin: Oh, Kevin, I wish. I wish I had done a better job of it. I'll be honest with you. I don't understand how the garbage pail is this big in the bathroom. The Q tip is this big. Why doesn't the Q tip go in the garbage? Why does it go next to the garbage? I don't. I've not yet cracked that code. So I am far, far from a perfect example. I think what I. What I have tried to do and what's interesting is when my kids were younger, for the holidays, I one holiday watched my kids get a ridiculous amount of stuff. My in laws are very generous. And, you know, we also as a family, celebrate both Hanukkah and Christmas, which is just basically gluttony. And I decided in that moment that I was going to make each kid give up one toy for charity. And it wasn't about punishing them. It was about getting them in what is the most ridiculous, over the top, as it should be, moment in their lives to try to think about somebody else. I think with chores, I grew up much more structured. Where I had chores and I had an allowance. I think the world that we live in right now because of Apple pay and virtual pay and cashless world we live in. It's less about the, you know, here's $5 for taking out the trash. And it's more about the flexibility. You earn the flexibility, you earn the opportunity by doing the things that we expect you to do and then some. So, you know, you want to go see Harry Styles at Madison Square Garden and you want your mom and I to pay for the ticket. Awesome. Here are the 16 things you got to do. You know, so it's more of a barter relationship, I think, than anything. I just, much like you, we've worked hard to give our children things in privilege. And I try where I can to not let them forget that it is not normal to go to a sporting event and sit in a skybox and eat chicken fingers. And I'm a terrible parent in that my children have never sat in the cheap seats before like I did. But that's one of the things that reasons why I work hard is to be able to have those special moments with our kids. But I want to make sure that in the moment my son's looking around and realizing that like, this isn't normal, it's become normal, but it's not normal. And it's something that's special. And when it stops being appreciated as special and it starts to become expected without recognition, that's when things stop.
• 43:08
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, that's the entitlement that I'm terrified of. Right. I don't want to raise entitled kids. I had a very similar conversation with my 10 year old on Monday. It was his birthday on Tuesday, so we were driving down to Magic Mountain in Los Angeles to go on roller coasters together. I had gotten VIP tickets so that we didn't have to wait in line because I didn't want to wait in line. It's like 90 degrees out. But on the way there, we were driving through a very rural, low income community and we were looking around and we had the conversation of man, we're very privileged. And I talked to him about the, his reality versus juxtaposed with the reality around us. And I was like, look, we, we are very fortunate we get to be able to do these things, but we need to remember that this is not something that everybody gets to experience. And we have to remember that like we're blessed and we, we have to have gratitude for that. And the second we lose gratitude, that's where entitlement comes in. And that's what I, I won't tolerate. So we had this like, great conversation and then we spent the day going on roller coasters.
• 44:14
  Douglas Zarkin: That's awesome. I mean, like, my son is a competitive baseball player. And, you know, I remember he said to me, you know, dad, I need a new batting helmet. And I'm like, why? And he's like, well, this one's all beaten up. I'm like, does it still work? And he's like, yeah. I'm like, well, you have two options. You can continue using it or you can earn money for a new one. Like, you don't just get a new one every year. You know, you don't, you don't just. Unless you're going to earn the money for it, you just don't get a new one. It's not like your head got big and you outgrew it or it's safety. There's a safety issue. You try to find those moments where, you know, you're not the first parent to run out and get your kid the new iPhone. You know, you're not the first parent to go out and get the kid the sweatshirt that's the hot sweatshirt. There are times that you do, and I love those moments. I mean, trust me, when you're able to pull a favor, it's pretty epic. But you got to find those moments to, especially with children whose parents like you are accomplished to keep them grounded in the world that they live in. And I think, unfortunately, because of social media, our children have a much greater sense of the world around them than I did growing up. I grew up, I never experienced some of the hate that is in this world that I do now.
• 45:41
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, a lot of the guests on the show have talked about how becoming a parent actually made them a better leader at work or how their leadership skills have translated to helping them be a better parent. Was there anything specifically that father had taught you that the boardroom never could?
• 45:59
  Douglas Zarkin: Yeah, the 8020 rule. 80% of the time, if something's at the 80% level of completion or perfection, it goes. And I'm thinking like in particular, creative. You know, if you're looking at a piece of creative, 80% of the time, if that piece of creative is 80% in your mind perfect, you let it go. But it equally taught me that there's 20% of the time where it has to be 100% perfect. And I think with my kids, I learned that lesson. You know, if my 16 year old wants to be what I like to call a bag of dumb on a 30 degree day and wear a hooded sweatshirt and shorts to school, so as long as he's not going to come down with pneumonia, fine. Okay. And yes. Is it gratifying that when I pull up and drop them off, all the rest of the dumb 16 year old boys are wearing hooded sweatshirts and shorts at 35 degree day? Sure. I think the idea of proportionality is something that as a parent you are forced to, especially when you have more than one. With the first kid, everything was a major issue. Every cough, every sneeze, every cut, every whatever. With the second one you're just like, all right, you know what? He's going to eat chicken fingers. And that's all he's going to eat
• 47:23
  Kevin Rice: for the next month.
• 47:25
  Douglas Zarkin: Okay, we'll survive.
• 47:27
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, they'll turn out fine.
• 47:28
  Douglas Zarkin: He'll be okay. He'll be okay.
• 47:29
  Kevin Rice: If your kids were kind of looking back and describing you 10 years from now, what do you hope they'd say about how you were able to like show up for them and model being a successful professional, but also somebody who like, cares deeply and was there for them at home?
• 47:47
  Douglas Zarkin: That's a great question and elicits a lot of emotion. I'm sure when you ask that question of your other guests, everyone kind of takes that moment of contemplation. First and foremost, hope that they know and will say that nobody loved them more. I hope that they would be equally vocal that I was not a perfect parent and that at times I probably was harder on them than they wish I was. But I hope the conclusion of that is because I wanted nothing but joy, health, wealth and happiness for them. When, when my daughter went to college, she happens to go to the school that I went to, which is in itself very cathartic. Walking around campus and remembering yourself as a stupid 18 year old boy. And now you're there with your daughter and I, when we moved her in, she and I got into a major fight, major fight over something really stupid. And I had to, in the midst of the fight, stop and just say to her, chelsea, I'm so scared for you. I'm so worried about you because of X, Y and Z. And that why I'm so upset is because of. And so admitting that you are flawed is part of what I think parents more and more are willing to do, especially as your children get older, because that's the way you earn their trust. And she understood and she said to me, dad, I hear you. I understand. I'm going to be okay. So I, I hope they know, I believe they know that there's nothing in the world I wouldn't do for them, there's no pain in the world I wouldn't take. For them, there's no door I wouldn't kick down to make their life easier. But at the same time, like, I also expect them to work hard and give a effort. You know, you're blessed in so many ways. You're smart, you're both beautiful kids. You're great kids. And I'm grateful so much that to my wife as well. Don't blow it. Don't squander it. Don't take it for granted. Don't assume you can smile and wink your way out of everything. Don't think you can fake it. You know, to your earlier point, you realize very quickly the moment when faking it doesn't work. And if you haven't trained yourself to put the effort in when you hit that moment, it could, like, just be paralyzing. So to our earlier conversation. Early in our careers, did we have the gravitas, the experience, to have the convictions that we had to have the points of view? What gave us the right to have the point of view? What gave us the right to have the point of view was the belief in ourselves and the belief that, you know what, it was possible. And so, you know, we want our kids to have that belief as well.
• 51:26
  Kevin Rice: I appreciate you taking a moment to share that, that story of your daughter. I think when it comes to faking it, what I was faking for, at least for the first few years of my son's life, was presence, right? Like I was faking being present. When I was physically there, I was mentally thinking about work. And eventually I was able to kind of make that shift and be able to set aside the stress of work and be more intentional and be more present for them. My kids have had challenges early in life. They haven't had their biological mom in their life for the past, like, six years. And so I've raised them. And it's not easy, right? I wish I had a playbook or a notebook, something to guide me on this journey, but we're all just kind of figuring it out as we go, and we're doing it with the best of intentions. And I think that vulnerability that you shared is really important.
• 52:20
  Douglas Zarkin: You have. You have something so much more powerful, which is they matter more to you than you matter. You know, when you put somebody in front of yourself, when their needs become the needs, and I'm not just talking about giving them the big piece of chicken. I'm talking about, you know, the difference between you doing something for you or you doing something for them. You know, you waking up early to drive them to practice or you staying up late to pick them up at night. That is a small moment that creates that connection with your kid where you don't need a playbook, you don't need a guidebook, you don't need a notebook. It's almost in your DNA. And I think great parents aren't necessarily born great parents, but there is a point where the switch flips and the we becomes collectively more important than the me. And the hardest part is making sure that you take time for the me, that you take time for yourself. For me, it's two hours of tennis. You know, nobody in my family plays. Nobody in my family cares. As my family says, it's my hobby. It's the one big area of my life where my effort and my outcome, they're just not in line. I should be so much better than I am. But you got to make sure you find your me time.
• 53:48
  Kevin Rice: Yeah.
• 53:48
  Douglas Zarkin: To keep you centered, to keep you whole.
• 53:50
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. Basketball is that. For me, it's my, like, outlet to decompress and give me something to, like, compete against. And sometimes I have to prioritize that because it allows me to show up as a better version of myself afterwards 100%. If someone were to take away, like, one idea about building a brand people love and then one idea about building a family that loves each other, what are those two things?
• 54:18
  Douglas Zarkin: So in business, I would say it goes into something that. That is at the center of my TED Talk as well as my book, which is this notion of thinking human. If you want to build a successful business, build an ecosystem that looks at every customer as if they are the only customer that's going to buy from you that day. It will free you up to build a communications platform and an experience platform that is designed to create brand love very quickly. From the way somebody is greeted to the way somebody is sold, to the way somebody is thanked, to the way somebody is connected to both when something good happens and when something bad happens. If you treat every customer that comes into your store, to your website, or to your business, to your brand, as if they're the only one that's going to buy from you, you will not lose with that philosophy. And there are so many amazing case studies to look at for brands that have done just that and that do just that, I think as a parent, my advice would be don't focus so much on worrying about what is the right way or the wrong way to be a parent. Realize that there is no right or wrong. There's just an away. And the away is influenced by how you were raised, because unfortunately, many of us turn into our parents. I find myself saying some of the same things my mom and dad said growing up, and I'm like, oh, man. But also recognize that it's okay to be a work in progress. I am not a perfect parent. I'm a good parent. I aspire to be a great parent. Where I am great is that my kids know that I love them. Where I am great is that my kids know that I would do anything for them. Where I am great is that my kids matter more than anything. But not every day is a great day for me as a parent. Not every reaction I have is the right one. Or is it, let's say, is the smartest one, because there is no right one. The smartest one. I sometimes say and do a lot of dumb things as a parent, but I don't question whether my kids love me and whether my kids believe in me. It's what pushes me to be me. It is the most amount of pressure that I've ever had in my life is being a parent, but it's also the privilege. You know, as Billie Jean King says, pressure is a privilege. A lot of pressure being a parent. You know that better than anybody, Kevin. But it is a privilege to be in that position.
• 57:25
  Kevin Rice: Doug, thank you so much for joining me today. I sincerely appreciate just the thought and the candor and even vulnerability into, like, some of the stories and lessons that you've shared. You are a fantastic human being and marketer and, you know, a father as well, right? I hear it in everything that you've shared with us today. You know, your kids are very lucky to have you as their father. So thank you for joining. I appreciate you.
• 57:56
  Douglas Zarkin: You're doing something really interesting here, which is you're not just focusing on the person. You're focusing on the person behind the person. You have a lot. You've had a lot of esteemed CMOs and market leaders on your podcast. But what to me is the most attractive part is that you learn about them as people. And that's pretty special. So keep doing it.
• 58:16
  Kevin Rice: Thank you. Appreciate it. If you've enjoyed this conversation, make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. CEOs and ABCs is all about helping you grow in your career and show up at home. We have many more amazing guests coming up, so tap, follow, and stay tuned.