Latest / Closing Sales in Nigeria - Sales For The Nigerian Business Person: The Sales and Marketing Blueprint / Spying on Your Clients (Ethically!)

Transcript

Spying on Your Clients (Ethically!) · Closing Sales in Nigeria - Sales For The Nigerian Business Person: The Sales and Marketing Blueprint

0:01
Hello, and welcome to the show. Today is going to be a noisy
0:04
episode because I'm not in the audio booth.
0:06
It's a full house, and you know, even the neighbour's kids are
0:08
around. So I expect to hear some noise
0:10
coming in every now and then. Today on the show, we are going
0:15
to be exploring Chapter 3. The title of Chapter 3 is The
0:19
Art of Elicitation. And if this is your first time
0:22
of listening to the show, what we're doing is we're exploring
0:25
themes that occur in a book that was written by Jeremy Hurowitz.
0:30
And it was written on August, well, published August 27th, I
0:35
think, 2024, last year. It's a brand new book.
0:39
So one of my schoolmates who is a lawyer who handles the
0:45
practice of divorce and things like that, family law,
0:49
basically, he's the one that put it up.
0:50
And I thought it would be a good book to look at because Jeremy
0:53
Hurowitz title of the book is Sell Like a Spy, the Art of
0:57
persuasion from the world of espionage.
0:59
The main thesis and the main idea that the author is making
1:03
this book is that there are things that spies and diplomats
1:07
and people in that kind of world have to do that we sales people
1:11
also have to do as well. So if this is the first time of
1:15
listening to the show, then skip back a couple of episodes.
1:17
You don't have to go past more than maybe 5 or 6 because I
1:21
think I've only been on this for about a week.
1:24
So you'll be able to get, you'll be able to get all the gist from
1:29
the past episodes basically. So today we're going to be
1:31
exploring chapter 3, The art of elicitation.
1:35
Now if you'd love to connect with me, the phone number to use
1:37
is 08064662140. The country code is lost 234.
1:44
For those of you who are not Nigerian, that is my WhatsApp
1:48
number. So feel free to send me a
1:49
WhatsApp message there. Although if you're sending a
1:52
message to me for the first time, please don't include any
1:54
links, photos, PDFs or something like that.
1:57
I mean, until I know you and you know, we start flowing, I'm not
2:00
going to click on any link. You know, safety first then.
2:06
Oh yeah. Connect with me on socials.
2:07
My name is Tavish Shima Ayede. I'm the host of the show.
2:10
You find me on LinkedIn. All other profiles are currently
2:13
being deleted, but they all have this profile that if you start
2:17
trying to delete your profile, there's a like a 30 day wait
2:20
period. So you might find my profile,
2:22
but I'm not there. I'm not checking it.
2:24
So LinkedIn only. So today, like I said, we're
2:29
exploring Chapter 3, the art of elicitation, and the name of the
2:33
book is Cell Like a spy, The art of persuasion from the world of
2:36
espionage. The author is Jeremy Hurwitz.
2:41
And let me see, Let me see. Sorry.
2:45
Hold on. I made a couple of notes.
2:46
I'm trying to refer. Aha.
2:48
Yeah. So remember that since what
2:50
we're doing is we're exploring themes in the book, This is not
2:53
a book review. I am not reading the book.
2:55
I'm going over line by line. I would advise you guys to read
2:59
the book first hand for yourself instead of relying on me.
3:05
You know, going through themes. Now some of you might wonder
3:08
where can I find this book? Obviously you can find it on
3:12
Amazon if sorry, excuse me if you don't have that Amazon
3:17
money, no problem. For those of you who are in
3:20
Lagos, if you go to Ajota New Garage, those guys, they, they
3:25
have everything. I am not endorsing piracy.
3:30
If I let me just stop talking right now.
3:31
Just go to adjust our new garage.
3:33
If it's not there, talk to one of those boys.
3:35
I'm sure next week you'll be able to get a copy.
3:38
Then also Oshodi, there are lots of book hawkers in Oshodi who
3:42
can get access to those sorts of things.
3:43
Then if you're based in Maitama, there are lots of book hawkers.
3:48
So if you're based in Abuja, there are lots of book hawkers
3:50
in Maitama between Federal Secretariat and Hilton Hotel.
3:54
You know those boys, if you let them know what's up, they should
3:56
be able to hook you up. So yeah, go buy a copy of the
4:00
book and read. The best thing to do, the most
4:03
ethical thing to do, the most legal thing to do, the most
4:07
moral thing to do is to go on Amazon and buy it directly so
4:11
that our guy Jeremy Hurwitz can get a cut of it.
4:15
So let's look into some of the themes that are in Chapter 3.
4:18
Oh, before we do that, I forgot the shout outs.
4:20
So First off, I'm going to shout out Angela Mechi Princess.
4:25
I hope I got your name right. Shout out Angela Mechi Princess
4:29
because she's been supporting a lot of the posts on LinkedIn
4:31
where I talk about the podcast. So thank you very much for the
4:35
support. Then also shout out to Okaryi
4:38
Namdi, who's a web designer and also a convener of something
4:42
called the BSE. And the BSE is the biggest s s
4:46
business hangout. Oh yeah, I remember this guy, I,
4:49
I gave him my phone number. I told him I should reach out to
4:51
me on WhatsApp 'cause I only hear about this s s business
4:54
hangout. And the more details that I get
4:56
Harmony share with you guys over here on the show.
4:59
Because all I put it, you know, we all come from different
5:05
tribes, different regions and of course, yes, we're all in love
5:08
with one Nigeria, but we can't run away from the fact that on
5:11
the regional basis, you know, some of us have some particular
5:13
problems that maybe people in the rest of the country can't
5:16
relate to. So S S you know, you guys, you
5:18
have your problems, Middle Belt people, you know, we, we have
5:21
our problems, which is why our particular segments of the show,
5:24
you know, I talk about certain things related to the Middle
5:28
Belt community. I remember that episode I made
5:30
about how it's not your village people that are doing you
5:33
because, you know, in my own part of the world, you know,
5:35
they can say something like, you know, uncle this or auntie that
5:38
or grandfather this or whatever. But because of somebody's bad
5:41
eye, that's the reason why you're not making progress.
5:43
And that's something that I dealt with over here.
5:45
So it's really nice that you're having young men and women doing
5:50
stuff, you know, addressing business challenges that might
5:54
be particular to any region. Nigeria.
6:00
It doesn't mean that we don't care about Nigeria as a whole.
6:02
You know, we're just trying to clean our own house first, you
6:04
know, before we come outside. So that's just the main idea.
6:07
So Okarike Namdi, web designer, convener of the biggest s s
6:12
business hangout. Thank you very much for
6:16
listening to the show. He reached out to me on
6:18
LinkedIn. Then also shout out to Let Me
6:23
See. Oh, OK, there's one person I'm
6:26
going to shout out twice. OK, we're carrying Namdi.
6:29
What what actually happens that you know, people reach out to me
6:31
on LinkedIn or WhatsApp while I see their comments on Spotify.
6:34
So this is one guy who has reached out to me on both
6:35
avenues. So OK Namdi apparently he also
6:40
left a comment on Spotify saying that he was amazed at the sales
6:43
tips that that are there. So thanks again for the
6:47
compliments. Then after that, he now reached
6:48
out to me on LinkedIn. So I didn't realize I was the
6:52
same fellow. So those are the shout outs of
6:54
the day. Angeli Mechi Princess, thank you
6:57
very much for the support. Okary Namdi, thank you very much
7:00
for the support. Keep listening.
7:02
Also share the podcast with people who you think are going
7:05
to derive value from the sales trips.
7:08
And then Okary Namdi, I'm giving you my phone number, so reach
7:13
out on WhatsApp. Let's talk about this s s
7:15
business hangout thing. I'm curious.
7:16
I'd like to hear what you guys are up to.
7:19
All right, so chapter 3, the art of elicitation.
7:24
Now let's find out what elicitation means in the 1st
7:26
place. This is my own definition.
7:28
Elicitation just means talk freely.
7:31
You're trying to get somebody to talk freely.
7:34
Now, in the particular context of espionage, we can get
7:38
somebody to talk is either elicitation, get them to talk
7:41
freely, or you beat the crap out of them.
7:43
Basically, that's torture. So either talk freely or break
7:47
your head. So those are the two options in
7:50
this world, in the world of espionage.
7:52
So of course it is better that you get person to talk freely to
7:57
elicitate the information, the information.
8:00
Because if you elicitate, if you get someone to talk freely, the
8:04
person is going to be calm, person will be cool.
8:07
The person should be more honest, the conversation should
8:10
be more heartfelt versus when you tell the person that look,
8:13
talk or else I break your head, you know, And then of course,
8:16
there's also this thing that some people haven't realized.
8:20
Sometimes when you tell somebody look, talk or break your head,
8:23
the person will tell you whatever it is that you want to
8:26
hear. Also, one reason why torture is
8:28
not the best way to get information from people.
8:31
So in that part of the world, to get information, you can either
8:36
elicitate, toast the person, coax the person, let the person
8:40
talk freely, let everything be nice, be calm, be heartfelt, or
8:43
you can say look, talk, or I break your head.
8:45
The option that we're going to pick is elicitation.
8:48
Let's try and get people to talk openly, honestly, calmly,
8:53
heartfelt, cool, no tension. If we get people to talk like
8:58
that, then it will lead to good business and it will also lead
9:01
to good diplomatic relations. Remember, we're talking about
9:06
how to sell from the world of espionage.
9:09
So of course, the book starts off from a diplomatic context.
9:12
Now, let me give you an example. This whole thing of Donald
9:15
Trump, our guy, our president, he's back.
9:18
So there have been lots of comments, you know, like I
9:21
belong to this group called, what's it called again, UKUK
9:28
alumni, something I can't remember, but it's an initiative
9:31
of the UK government so that every single person that has
9:33
graduated from the United Kingdom, if you have a United
9:37
Kingdom degree or higher degree, I can't remember from what year.
9:43
Basically, you guys are members of this association, you know,
9:46
trust our Niger people now. So we have a Niger water group
9:49
and it's just a good way for networking.
9:51
That's what they tell us. But actually the truth is, if
9:55
you have an association of people like this networking
9:57
together and seeming to derive benefits from it, it's also a
10:00
good marketing opportunity because people on the outside
10:03
will look at them and say, OK, this is them, this is our UK and
10:07
see how their life is. And then people to also now
10:10
start rushing to try and get to UK schools, UK degrees.
10:15
And I think it's a really brilliant thing that the
10:18
government of the UK is doing, you know, how they find ways to
10:21
continually market themselves not just as a tourist
10:24
destination, but also as an academic.
10:30
What's that word? I think it's called
10:32
transnational education. So as a transnational education
10:36
destination as well. And they end up making lots and
10:38
lots and lots and lots of money because I don't know how much it
10:41
is education is right now. But I think back when I was in
10:45
uni, I think for my master's, I can't remember Sharp.
10:50
I don't think it was up to maybe like 3000 lbs or something like
10:53
that. I can't remember 1003 thousand.
10:56
I can't remember anyway. But I'm sure now it's really,
10:58
really plenty of money because I was talking one of my, it's
11:02
already my uncle Sharp. But you know how Niger is,
11:03
everybody's your uncle or your auntie.
11:05
And I was trying to send his son to Canada and he said he needed
11:10
like $7000. And I was shocked as, ah, $7000
11:16
now things become that expensive.
11:17
And then, you know, he laughed. He said no, that 7000 is not
11:19
everything. No, that 7000 is just one year.
11:23
I said, hey, OK, now anyway, what was that?
11:29
So I was talking about elicitation now, talking people
11:31
to talk, getting people to talk in an honest, open and heartfelt
11:34
manner. And OK, from there I went to
11:37
Donald Trump. Now the reason why I'm talking
11:39
about Donald Trump now is because in this my water group
11:42
that I am now Alumni UK, some people are saying that Donald
11:46
Trump, he hates Africa, he hates Nigerians, blah, blah, blah, he
11:49
hates immigrants. If Donald Trump enters this is
11:51
this one thing, one thing, one thing, you know, all the things
11:54
that people say. So let's go back to the example
11:57
that I've been given. Now, if you have now been
11:59
elevated to the level of ambassador and your ambassador
12:03
to America, you're posting this Washington DC, go and give
12:06
thanks and go and glorify the Lord because you have been
12:09
exalted. You have been exalted over your
12:13
people in the same cater who work in NTA or NOA or who work
12:17
in Ministry of Education because you know, they're still being
12:21
paid in naira and their crap, their salary is crap.
12:24
You are now being paid, you know, on another level, you
12:26
know, dollars Ester code, you know this and this that and
12:29
that, housing allowance, travel allowance, driver allowance, all
12:35
kinds of things. So go and give thanks and pay
12:37
your tithes because yes, you have been elevated.
12:39
Definitely you're also better than those people that have been
12:41
sent to Yugoslavia or Latvia or Afghanistan.
12:46
So go and give thanks. Then after you give thanks now
12:49
and you don't settle down in Washington, DC, you don't have
12:52
to think, OK, now that I'm here as a diplomat, as ambassador,
12:57
I'm supposed to be getting some kind information.
12:59
I need to know what's up, what's up with America, what's up with
13:02
Donald Trump? What are America's priorities?
13:05
What are Donald Trump's priorities on the global scale
13:07
and especially as relates to the African content and to Niger in
13:10
particular? I need to know what's up.
13:12
Now, for those of you who have been here and who listened to us
13:15
when we talked about Chapter 2 and Chapter 1, we also know that
13:18
you're going to be doing information gathering, building
13:20
relationships, all those sorts of things.
13:22
So as ambassador now, you have to be talking to people
13:25
one-on-one. And the only way to find out
13:27
what Donald Trump is really feeling is if you do
13:30
elicitation. Get people to talk freely, get
13:33
them to talk calmly, get them to talk openly, honestly,
13:37
heartfelt, everything nice and mellow.
13:39
It is then you'll be able to know whether Donald Trump truly
13:42
hates Nigerians and he wants all immigrants out.
13:45
That way you'll be able to advise team war.
13:47
You'll be able to call Chenabu and say I would Chenabu that is
13:50
fire on the mountain Trump has entered.
13:53
And based on my conversations, this is what Trump is saying.
13:55
Trump is saying this, Trump is saying that Chenabu, we're in
13:57
trouble. Prepare.
13:59
So that's why I'm going to be able to get the truth.
14:02
Oh, by the way, I saw Donald Trump on the documentary and I
14:05
thought was really quite interesting.
14:07
His whole point of view on immigrants anyway, this is the
14:10
first time I've seen him talk about it.
14:12
All other times I hear about this whole immigrant thing,
14:14
there's always them say them say, but I'm just telling you
14:16
the one that me I saw for myself.
14:18
So Donald Trump was caught in an interview saying that that they
14:24
need to have a change to the what's called immigration policy
14:27
and blah, blah, blah. And he was saying that people
14:29
who come into the United States for a degree, you know, whether
14:34
A2 year degree or a master's program or something like that,
14:36
should be able to have the benefit of remaining in the
14:40
country legally. And what he was saying was that
14:43
people who come through master's degrees and higher education and
14:46
stuff like that are higher quality immigrants who come with
14:50
a particular set of skills. And when we chase them away,
14:55
they come here, they take the United States education and then
14:58
run back home. And then the other countries get
15:00
the benefit of the education. So that's what he was saying.
15:04
So listening to that clip is beginning to look to me as if
15:09
it's not as if Donald Trump hits Nigerians is meant to look at me
15:12
as if Donald Trump prefers high quality immigrants in quote.
15:17
So people who are coming for master's degree, you know, for
15:20
this, you know, for stuff like that, let those people remain
15:22
because they're high quality. So it looks that Donald Trump
15:25
and this girl, the head of the Conservative Party, this
15:28
Nigerian girl can't remember her name anyway, Oh, big UPS.
15:31
Congratulations to how that she got become the head of the
15:33
Conservative Party as a Niger chick, as in I'm impressed.
15:36
You know, keep doing your thing, sister.
15:38
I understand. Keep doing your thing.
15:40
So it looks like both of them are on the same page when it
15:43
comes to these sorts of things. You know how she she talks about
15:46
is it chemi something something, you know, she talks about how
15:49
most of the Nigerian immigrants to the UK go there and just be
15:52
cleaning and to be wiping Bom Bom and stuff like that.
15:56
So it looks like Donald Trump and Kemi, I think this can be
15:59
banquet. I can't remember her name.
16:01
So those are Donald Trump and Kemi.
16:02
They're both on the same page. What they want is high quality
16:05
immigrants, people who are coming in for master's, you
16:09
know, higher education programs, you know, stuff like that.
16:11
Smart people, people who are going to come and gain degrees
16:17
or whatever, remain within the system and then contribute
16:21
positively to the development of society.
16:24
So it looks like this is not the quality of immigrants that they
16:26
are looking for. I kind of fault their reasoning
16:30
because it's not everybody who comes to wipe Bom Bom doesn't
16:33
necessarily mean they're not a good quality immigrant.
16:35
Because let's face it, people are trying to escape from Niger
16:37
and there's some people who have lots of skills here who want to
16:40
leave by all means, who will take any kind of job, even if
16:43
it's care work and wiping Bom Bom in the hope that from wiping
16:46
bom Bom they'll be able to trans, not translate.
16:50
What's the world trans? I can't remember.
16:53
Move trans what? Move to an admin job and to a
16:58
higher paying opportunity. But so where was I?
17:02
And I was just trying to say that, you know, all these people
17:05
who are sending messages on what's our group?
17:06
Donald Trump hates Nigeria, he hates Nigerians, hates
17:08
immigrants. You know, maybe it's not exactly
17:10
the case. So where was I?
17:15
So as a diplomat now, they now send you to Washington, DC.
17:17
Your goal is to find out, does Donald Trump hate Nigerians?
17:20
Does Donald Trump hate immigrants?
17:22
This is how you're going to find out.
17:23
You're going to find out what's up by elicitation.
17:26
You get people to talk freely. You get them to be honest.
17:28
You get there to be cool. You get them to be calm.
17:31
It is from there. Talking to people in Washington,
17:33
DC, talking to, I don't know, legislators, other people in the
17:36
diplomatic corps, maybe even if you get to meet Donald Trump
17:39
himself. And you guys just, you know, you
17:43
guys break it off, you know, you just chill.
17:45
Maybe you bring Hennessy and you know, you and Donald Trump are
17:48
just sipping casual and just talking.
17:49
Then, you know, elicitate. That's how you get the guy to
17:53
talk his mind and you know where he's coming from.
17:54
So you now know whether to call or gotten able to say tenable,
17:58
we're in trouble. Trump hates Niger or to say or
18:01
got tunable. All is well, Trump loves Niger.
18:04
So elicitation, now, what does all this have to do in the
18:08
business context? Because thing is, you and me,
18:12
chances of us meeting Donald Trump are slim.
18:15
By the way, if you have Tinaboo's phone number and
18:16
Tinaboo's looking for a new ambassador and they want to
18:20
change the ambassador to the UK, you know, if Tinaboo is your
18:24
guy, just give him my phone number, let him call me.
18:26
You know, I'm educated and I'm young, I'm bright.
18:28
I can go to the UK, hook you guys up and make sure that
18:33
Nigeria's a business interest, cultural interests, you know
18:37
that our bilateral interests basically are taken care of, you
18:39
know are capable for the job. So if you know Tin Abou, just
18:41
give him my phone number. Let's say you can hook me up in
18:45
this cabinet so I can help Nigeria be great again.
18:49
So business elicitation now. So we're not diplomats, we don't
18:52
know Tin Abou, we don't know Donald Trump.
18:54
So what does all this talk about elicitation have to do with us?
18:56
It's very simple. When we are talking to potential
19:01
customers, potential clients in business, we also have to do
19:03
some kind of elicitation, which is the reason why I keep telling
19:07
you, people who like to do proposal, customer will say, are
19:10
you available? How much?
19:11
You now say, give me your e-mail address, I'll send you proposal.
19:13
That's too fast. Calm down.
19:15
Proposal is the last thing. Proposal is not the first thing.
19:18
Stop starting. No, OK, no, that's wrong.
19:22
Don't start your sales process by issuing proposals.
19:26
So you have to do some carrying elicitation first.
19:30
And remember, elicitation is about let the person be cool,
19:33
let the person be calm, let the person talk freely, let the
19:36
person be honest, let the person speak his mind from his chest.
19:39
Let's have a heartfelt conversation.
19:41
The reason why we're trying to do that is because we need some
19:44
information. And until I get that
19:47
information, I can't give you a quote that is reliable.
19:51
And I can't even give you a proposal or a quote that might
19:55
even adequately address your problem.
19:59
So you need to get the person to be calm.
20:00
I need to. Elicitate.
20:03
Get them to talk about the problem that they have.
20:05
When did this problem start? How is this problem affecting
20:08
them? Have they tried any solutions
20:11
before? What are they even trying to
20:13
achieve in the 1st place? What time frame do they have in
20:16
mind? Is this even a problem that is
20:19
worth fixing? Because sometimes there's some
20:21
people that have problems, but it's not a problem that is worth
20:24
fixing. For instance, my car, the window
20:29
on the passenger side, the thing stopped working.
20:32
My mom's has been asking me why will you fix it?
20:34
And I'm like mommy, I beg, I'm not fixing that thing.
20:36
And she's like, why? I'm like, look, the other
20:38
windows, they work. Apart from that, my AC is tight.
20:41
So I'm not going to fix that window.
20:44
So yes, I have a problem. The window on the passenger side
20:47
is not winding down. But as far as I'm concerned, I
20:49
have better things to spend money on right now.
20:51
I'm not going to fix that problem.
20:54
So any time I take the mechanic and my car is like Olga the
20:57
window, I tell them, look just flashy that thing fix what I
21:00
told you to fix and let me get out of here because I don't have
21:04
a problem in my own mind that is worth fixing.
21:07
Maybe if my AC stops working OK, I might now go and fix that
21:10
window so that at least we wind it down.
21:12
You know, breeze went out of the whole car.
21:14
But I'm trying to get you guys to understand though, every
21:17
single time people call you up and they say how far are you
21:20
available? How much do you deliver to
21:22
Sokoto? Do you deliver to Maiduguri?
21:24
Do you deliver to Abuja? Do you deliver to Makudi?
21:27
Sometimes people have a problem but the problem is not worth
21:30
fixing. That is the reason why sometimes
21:32
people are ghosting you because yes, it's a problem.
21:34
It's just not worth fixing. Remember that and stop taking
21:38
all these things personal that somebody ghosted you.
21:40
It's not always about you. Then even after I figure out if
21:43
they have a problem that is worth fixing, you also need to
21:45
try and figure out whether they have a a budget, a range in
21:51
mind. Because if you're talking to
21:53
somebody, and this is what I used to tell wedding
21:55
photographers and wedding planners back when I still was a
21:59
trainer in that market, if you're a wedding planner and the
22:05
average wedding that you plan, the budget is like 7M, OK, no
22:10
times have changed. I'm sure weddings are much more
22:12
expensive now because I'm surprised if wedding hall in
22:15
Abuja now, the hall alone, I'm surprised if all alone has
22:18
entered like 2-3 M. So if the hall alone is like 3
22:21
MI, don't think you can do the wedding for seven M OK, let me
22:27
just leave it at 7 MI. Don't know how much it costs to
22:30
plan weddings these days. So if you're a wedding planner
22:32
in Abuja or in Lagos and the average wedding that you plan
22:36
costs seven M, if you are talking to somebody who is a 2.5
22:41
M client, it doesn't matter how much grammar you speak.
22:45
The gap between 2.5 M and seven M is huge.
22:51
You can't bridge that gap. You need to know from the
22:54
beginning which kind of person am I talking to?
22:56
Am I talking to a 2.53 M kind of person?
23:01
Am I talking to A7 M person or am I talking to A20M kind of
23:05
person? Because if you're talking to
23:08
A20M kind of person, what do you have in mind is 7 M the person
23:12
might be looking at your housing.
23:13
This guy, she's sheep. This guy is cheap.
23:16
They don't know what they're doing.
23:18
You know, too low class. Not the person for me.
23:21
So we actually need to have these conversations around
23:22
budget so you know who it is that you're talking to.
23:24
So you will take dressing accordingly.
23:27
The way or the kind of proposal that you make to the 20 M person
23:31
is different from the proposal you make to the seven M person,
23:34
and it's different from the proposal they need that you make
23:36
to the 2.5 M person. But you need to know who you're
23:40
dealing with, which is why this is not the only way to deal with
23:45
price, by the way, but is the reason why in the beginning, I
23:47
recommend this whole thing of giving A-frame of reference,
23:50
giving a budget, this whole thing of saying that all the
23:52
clients that I typically deal with happens.
23:54
Clients I typically deal with spend anything between 7,000,000
23:58
and, you know, 12.5 on a wedding.
24:02
How does that sound to you? Yeah.
24:05
Does that match your budget range?
24:08
Are we in the same ballpark? Is that the kind of thing that
24:10
you're looking for? What are your expectations are
24:13
concerning budget? You know, you just have that
24:16
sort of kind of concentrate question so that if somebody
24:19
hears 7.5 to 12 million persons says 7.5, how you now know that?
24:26
OK, this thing is, we're probably not going to meet, but
24:30
if you have someone that says 7.5 to 12, I will tell you the
24:34
exact budget. But it sounds OK.
24:36
It sounds just about right, you know that.
24:38
OK, this one, there's room. It might be realistic here.
24:43
So in a business context, elicitation, these are the sorts
24:46
of things you're trying to figure out.
24:47
What's the problem? What's the vision?
24:49
How long have you guys been planning?
24:50
How's it affecting people? What is the previous solution
24:52
you've tried before? You know, stuff like that is the
24:58
problem worth fixing 'cause I've had to tell some wedding
25:03
planners before. Everybody tells you that, oh,
25:06
Marty is planning it. I say your auntie, Are you sure?
25:10
She's. I know.
25:10
Yeah. My auntie.
25:11
Now my auntie has like 6 sisters, so they're covered.
25:14
That kind of babe. As far as she's concerned, she
25:16
doesn't have a problem. You can keep trying to toast
25:18
out, but it's going to be hard 'cause as far as she's
25:20
concerned, her aunties are Amazons and they're capable.
25:23
So they don't need a wedding planner.
25:24
By the way, let me move off of this whole wedding planning
25:27
example now because not everybody listening to the show
25:30
right now has a previous background in events like I do.
25:36
So let me just use, let me see. OK, So the last case study that
25:42
we did over here on the podcast, if I remember correctly, before
25:44
we started talking about diplomats and Washington, DC and
25:48
Afghanistan was interior decor. Yes, yes, yes, interior decor.
25:54
The guy in Lagos now we had a strategy session with, I didn't
25:57
use his real name. I think I called remember
25:59
calling him Jackie Chan in the episode.
26:02
So let's use Jackie Chan if this is your first time listening to
26:05
the show. Sometimes I use people's real
26:07
names because I have the permission.
26:08
If I don't have the permission, I just come up with a name on
26:11
the fly. No particular reason.
26:13
So yeah, I just call this guy Jackie Chan.
26:15
So Jackie Chan is the interior decor space and he's based in
26:18
Lagos. Then there was one time that he
26:22
was talking to a prospective customer who is a business owner
26:25
in Lag. He ended up doing business with
26:27
the person and the person. The ceiling of his business was
26:34
ordinary ceiling. And then later on they put
26:37
linoleum, I think it's called linoleum or something like that.
26:40
That's the, you know, ordinary ceiling is how do I describe it
26:43
now? OK, So for those of us who grew
26:47
up late 70s, early 80s, back then we didn't have POP in
26:51
Niger. What we had was regular ceiling.
26:53
It was kind of like ceramic. So like if you're playing with
26:56
your football inside the house and you kick it and I think it's
26:58
the ceiling, the ceiling will just crack.
27:01
And then you know that, OK, when daddy comes home, you're in
27:03
trouble because he's going to beat the hell out of you because
27:06
you destroyed the ceiling. So that was stage 1 ceramic.
27:13
We used to have ceramic, very ugly Gray looking kind of thing.
27:17
Then Step 2 was, I think it's called linoleum.
27:20
I can't remember. Shaw Boys like plastic and it
27:22
looks like it has lines on it, but The thing is plastic.
27:24
So you're playing football inside the house, you know your
27:27
brothers, and you kick it and the thing hits the ceiling.
27:28
Thing will just make boom, but the thing won't crack because
27:32
it's plastic. So if your father comes home, he
27:34
won't beat the hell out of you because there's no hole in the
27:37
ceiling. So this guy started off with
27:41
ordinary ceiling and then later on they did linoleum and now the
27:45
guy called up Jackie Chan because he wants to do POP.
27:49
Do you do POP? How much are you available,
27:52
blah, blah, blah. Now what Jackie Chan did was a
27:54
normal thing that yes, we do POP.
27:55
It is 12,000 naira per square meter.
27:58
Something, something, something, any answer?
27:59
He ended up getting the deal, but this is the better way that
28:02
you're supposed to do this thing.
28:03
Now, if you're in this kind of business, you do interrupt the
28:07
call, somebody calls you do you do POP, how much are you
28:10
available for? You know, so, so, so how so did
28:15
the way you handle it is remember we're talking about now
28:18
we are talking about elicitation.
28:21
We're trying to get some information.
28:23
We're trying to get people to talk freely.
28:25
We're trying to get people to have an honest, heartfelt
28:28
conversation about the problem. The reason why is if somebody
28:32
says, are you available? So, so, so, so I say, look, it's
28:35
just 12,000 air per square meter.
28:38
You well, you know, you getting the job just 5050.
28:42
He will note it down the amount call another person, whoever is
28:46
cheapest will call with that person.
28:47
You will not have the honest conversation with that person.
28:49
We're trying to get to have a chance to have a conversation
28:51
with the person first because the distinguishing factor is you
28:56
as far as the customer is concerned, POP in our POP.
29:00
Of course, you the profession. I know that some POP is
29:02
different, but the distinguishing factor is you and
29:05
you need to get the person to see that your distinguishing
29:08
factor. So we need to be able to have a
29:10
conversation with the problem. Now, this guy is a business
29:12
owner. So if a business owner wants to
29:15
change, has tried changing from ordinary ceramic to linoleum,
29:20
that plastic thing, and now he wants POP because POP is modern
29:25
or classy or high, you know, high class or sophisticated or
29:28
whatever. You need to have the
29:29
conversation now. OK, you've been using the
29:32
linoleum linoleum for three years.
29:34
You know, why are you changing now?
29:35
I mean, how's, how's it, how's it been affecting you or has it
29:39
been affecting your customers? He needs to have that
29:40
conversation now. Why now conversation?
29:43
He's been working for three years.
29:44
Why are you changing? So, you know, from there he
29:50
might start talking about how that this is the kind of
29:52
business he wants to build. This is what he's trying to
29:54
project. But this linoleum now the thing
29:56
looks cheap. Now people are saying that his
29:58
business is local and he's trying to step up in 2025.
30:01
So that's the reason why he wants to arrange everything.
30:03
Now. You need to have that
30:04
conversation. You now know the problem that he
30:07
has the visualities that he's working towards, you know, so he
30:12
started over ordinary this thing, he moved to linoleum.
30:15
He now has to do POP. Why we need to know.
30:18
You also need to have conversations around the time
30:21
frames. The person is saying that he
30:25
wants to, you know, step into 2025 with this.
30:27
You also need to know why, OK, Like why exactly?
30:31
Like is it that after you do this thing, you're going to do
30:33
launch party or there's going to be office blessing or something
30:36
like that? Is there some event that we're
30:38
heading towards? We need no time frames so that
30:41
we know how we arrange ourselves.
30:43
And then they also give us a sense of whether this person has
30:45
any sense of urgency. These are the things that help
30:48
us to close the sale. If somebody has said that this
30:51
thing must happen by January 2025 and you guys are talking in
30:54
November, you now know that, OK, this is a serious person.
30:57
This is one of those deals that you can follow up close.
31:00
Mark the guy, you're talking to someone and it sounded like this
31:05
is a good thing. I would like to do it, but maybe
31:08
it depends, Maybe I don't know. But this, but that you now know
31:14
that, OK, there's no urgency behind this thing.
31:16
Maybe this is not the kind of person that you close.
31:18
You spend your time just close marking because he's a maybe
31:22
here, maybe there, maybe this, maybe no.
31:25
But you're talking to somebody. It's November.
31:27
The person is saying January 2025.
31:29
This thing must be done good candidate to invest time in and
31:34
to vest money in trying to chase and trying to close this deal.
31:37
Then you also need to elicitate to try and figure out what kind
31:41
of POP do you like self, what style?
31:44
Oh, by the way, I'm not involved in this business so I know
31:47
absolutely nothing about POP. But I've noticed that there are
31:51
some designs because like while my father was alive and because
31:54
my father did sold cement and did a bit of building and stuff
31:57
like that. So I've seen POP work done
31:59
before. So I know that the old school
32:01
POP was very on it, you know, do lots of designs.
32:05
You know, you see flowers, you see maybe like waves and things
32:08
like that. It's just design your your
32:12
living room then in the middle of the living room to have one
32:15
kind of intricate design. And then that's where you now
32:18
put your ceiling fan. So that's how POP used to be.
32:22
But now with these modern houses, I've noticed that POP is
32:25
looking different. You know, you drop some places,
32:29
you will indent some places, then in the place where you
32:32
indent them, you now go and hide lights there with different
32:34
colors. So when you now switch on the
32:36
lights, bam, some parts of the POP will have a like orange
32:42
tint, some parts will have a blue tint, some parts will have
32:45
a green tint as a real fantastic stuff, real fancy the light of
32:49
the house real nice. So POP game has changed.
32:52
People are doing all kinds of things nowadays when he's have
32:54
that conversation with the person.
32:56
So the organ when you say POP, you know, like, what are we
32:59
looking at? That's the part where you bring
33:00
out your phone or you bring out your book, you bring out your
33:02
iPad or you bring out your drawings to show him.
33:05
Oh, OK, Olga, when people started doing POP in the 80s in
33:09
Nigeria, these were the designs. Is it this kind of thing you're
33:11
looking at? I'll be is it this modern thing
33:13
you're looking at that will do it like this will indent this
33:15
place and OK, your brown colors are red, orange and green.
33:19
So we'll now indent the edges with red, with orange and green
33:23
so that when your customers come in and they see this POP in the
33:27
ceiling and then they put on the light bap, you see your brown
33:30
colors, you know, just wow them. So organ, what is it that you
33:32
have in mind? And you have that conversation.
33:35
See, all this is elicitation. You're having conversations.
33:38
You're trying to tease out information.
33:40
We need to know what it is the person has in mind, what they're
33:44
trying to work towards. As we know the information in
33:47
our head, we're now beginning to arrange ourselves and oh, OK, so
33:50
it's going to be a modern job. I'm going to need this kind of
33:52
material, this kind of material, this kind of light bulb, this
33:54
kind of, this is kind of that you now start calculating
33:57
everything in your head because eventually we're going to get to
34:01
the budget conversation. And this is how I recommend it
34:05
for now. In the beginning, give a range,
34:09
don't give an exact figure. So Olga, based on the ideas that
34:12
we're saying so far with the ideas that we're talking, this
34:15
job can be anything between like that kind 800K and maybe 1.2 and
34:22
then you get some feedback. Is that the kind of money that
34:26
you're willing to invest? Is that within your budget
34:29
range, Bros, how you see them, You know, however it is that you
34:33
speak, use your own whatever, but give the range, get some
34:37
feedback and then hear what it is that the person has to say
34:41
based on what the person says. That is how you will now go and
34:44
make the tailored proposal. If the person says well it's OK,
34:52
but you go, you give me discount shop, you give me discount shop,
34:56
but it's OK, you know, OK, no problem.
34:59
You now can sit down and come up with a Taylor proposal based on
35:04
some ideas. And maybe the proposal come up
35:06
to is, I don't know, 995K. But to be on the safe side,
35:11
since he's saying you will price, you will price just
35:13
making one M so that by the time he prices down, maybe you guys
35:15
end up at 900 K or something like that.
35:17
You don't lose too much. So he's after that you're not
35:20
going to be able to give a tailored specific proposal.
35:24
And that is the stage where you have drawn up one particular
35:27
idea that you're going to do Nokia, we're going to do
35:29
ceramic. It's going to be a new design.
35:32
We're going to cover X number of square meters.
35:36
We'll do indent here, we'll do indent there, and we'll have
35:40
three accent Bob here, 4 accent Bob here, and blah, blah, blah.
35:43
They now give the guide proposal.
35:46
Then the next step is after I give the proposal, you now try
35:51
to close. Closing just means get the
35:53
person to take the next step. For people in this sort of
35:57
industry and also people who are in events, the technique that I,
36:02
or the tactic I like to recommend is basically just
36:05
breakdown what the next steps need to be and then ask the
36:09
person if they're good to go. So in this case you say, OK,
36:11
Olga, you say we have to enter 2025 on a high note for that to
36:16
happen. This work, we must finish this
36:18
work by December 23rd. If we're going to finish this
36:22
work by December 23rd, we have to work for two weeks.
36:25
So that means this work, we have to start this work December 9th,
36:29
December 9th. Now if we're going to start this
36:32
work December 9th, I need one week to be able to buy all these
36:35
materials because this POP, this indent, these glasses, this, I
36:40
have to buy it from Lagos, I have to send it from Unisha.
36:43
So I need one week. So where that means that
36:45
actually I need to place order for the materials by December
36:47
2nd. And Olga, you know today's data,
36:52
this is already November 3rd. So the money must enter my
36:55
account at least one week before now at least that kind 25th
36:58
November, the money must be in my account so I can place the
37:01
order. If we missed this November 25
37:04
orga, I can't guarantee that we'll step into this 2025 on a
37:08
high note. I can't guarantee it.
37:09
So this money gas being in my account by N25 and then you ask
37:15
is that something you can do? Can you raise 400K deposit by
37:20
then or got the ball is in your cartoon.
37:24
So it's up to you, Bros. Now you send the bar.
37:27
Oh, by the way, somebody has used that one on me before.
37:29
I made the podcast episode only because I thought it was really,
37:31
really cool. This is just to show you guys
37:33
that going for the clothes, it doesn't have to be all formal
37:36
and stuffy and everything. Even something as simple as air
37:38
Bros. When you go send the bar, that's
37:41
enough to get the ball rolling. So yeah.
37:46
So in this case, you can see how you ask for the commitment
37:48
because this is something that has a fixed deadline.
37:51
In this case, wedding people, event people you know already
37:53
has a fixed deadline. So if you just walk all the way
37:56
backwards and say, Olga, this is all Madam.
37:58
This is what is involved. So when are you comfortable for
38:01
us to start? Or can you raise the 400 K
38:04
deposit by then or blah, blah, blah.
38:06
That's a nice way to get things going.
38:07
And then you can now put the thing in your follow up queue so
38:12
that you'll be following up the person or follow through, as I
38:14
like to say, call the person to know how far and you know, stuff
38:18
like that. Just keep things online, keep
38:21
things going. But bottom line, the reason why
38:25
we worry about elicitation, and I hope you guys are paying
38:27
attention, especially those of you who like to start with
38:30
proposal, somebody will say, are you available?
38:33
Are you free? How much you say, well, let me
38:35
send you a proposal. What's your WhatsApp number?
38:38
Elicitation is what helps close deals, getting people to talk
38:43
freely, smoothly, calmly, their full chest, everybody nice and
38:49
cool. That is what closes deals.
38:52
If somebody calls you and says are you available and say OK,
38:54
let me send you a price list or let me send you a proposal.
38:57
The possibility of closing the deal is 50505050 is not bad, but
39:03
let us try and increase the odds in our favour.
39:06
Elicitation really, really important.
39:09
This is your first time listening to the show.
39:12
You might have to go back and listen to the show over again
39:14
just to get the spirit of what it is.
39:15
I'm saying is by having open, honest friend conversations with
39:21
people, elicitation information. That is where we get all the
39:24
information that we need to be able to close the deal.
39:26
And that's how we're going to be able to progress thing one step
39:29
at a time. And in case you haven't figured
39:31
out all these things that I've been saying, why do you want the
39:34
this thing? Why do you want it now?
39:35
Has been affecting your customers, blah, blah, blah
39:37
blah. In case I haven't noticed, this
39:40
is not the kind of conversation that you have in just one
39:42
sitting. So those of you who are trying
39:45
to close the deal on the spot, somebody contact you today or
39:48
trying to close it today. You know, calm down, illustrate
39:50
some things, have a couple of conversations, try and move
39:53
things from one step to another step to another step.
39:55
Give yourself time to close the deal.
39:58
If it's a very, very simple something like you sell, I buy
40:01
more and that's different. You close the deal in one spot.
40:04
The businesses want to buy. I buy more.
40:06
OK, how much? I buy more.
40:07
Do you want to buy? And then you give the person.
40:10
But if the person wants a distillery, for instance, and
40:13
they need Abalomo to as part of the raw material in their
40:17
distillery, that's a different conversation.
40:20
It's a complex deal. You need to ask the person, OK,
40:23
how many tons of Abalomo do you need?
40:24
What exactly are you produce producing?
40:26
How does Abalomo feature into the distillation process?
40:31
What grade of Abalomo do you need?
40:34
At what stage of harvesting do you need the Abalomo?
40:37
You know, things like that need to ask and in case you think I'm
40:41
making stuff up, I'm not making stuff up.
40:44
So one of my wife's clients brought her a hamper and inside
40:46
was something called dollar is actually the spirit, the spirit.
40:53
When I say spirit, I mean strong drink, 40% alcohol.
40:56
You believe the raw material is like Baltimore and this thing is
40:59
fantastic. Like I'm impressed.
41:03
I'm impressed. I did not know that you can take
41:05
a Baltimore and fermented Baltimore and use it to make
41:08
strong drink and the thing tastes smooth, real nice, very,
41:14
very nice. I was taking it straight, but my
41:16
wife said no, that we can't be taking this in straight, that we
41:18
should dilute it. So I bought Sprite and last
41:21
night we finished like half a bottle.
41:23
Very good stuff. Very, very good stuff.
41:26
So for those of you who like your alcohol, there's a new
41:29
brand in the market or The thing is called Dala DALA and it is
41:34
fermented at Balumo and nothing is awesome.
41:37
Give it a try. 40% alcohol. So if your husband is
41:41
lightweight or your wife is lightweight, you know, don't
41:43
give them or dilute it. But if you come from a family
41:46
that drinks, you know like me, go and buy a bottle, call mumsy
41:50
and popsy. Buy 2 bottles.
41:51
In fact, if you come from a drinking family, two or three
41:54
bottles, call mumsy and popsy. You sit down and then break
41:57
bread and have yourself some nice fermented.
42:02
So when I say like Barnum more is used in production processes.
42:05
I'm not lying though Nigerians were going places were inventing
42:08
things as in I'm impressed. I'm impressed.
42:12
Nigeria the only way to go is up.
42:15
There are people who don't want us to succeed or God punish them
42:18
who succeed. Where was I?
42:21
So bottom line, what I'm just trying to say is elicitation
42:23
helps to close deals. So learn how to do elicitation.
42:27
Now, if you read the book, the person Jeremy Hirowitz, the way
42:30
he talks about listen tation is this that you have to engage in
42:33
active listening because all these conversations that we're
42:36
going to be having, you have to do active listening.
42:38
If you want to know what active listening is just, and this is
42:41
your first time listening to the podcast episode, just scroll
42:43
back like one week and listen to all the episodes.
42:46
I've already done an episode on active listening, especially as
42:49
it relates to themes in this guy's book.
42:52
He also says that conversations have to be open-ended.
42:54
I've already done a podcast episode on how conversations
42:57
should be open-ended just within the last week.
42:59
So this is your first time just, you know, scroll back, skip
43:02
back, you listen to that episode.
43:05
Then he also said that we also need to engage in rapport
43:10
building to do elicitation. And then of course, we have to
43:12
do rapport building because how is somebody going to talk free
43:15
about their business, about their problems if you guys won't
43:17
establish rapport now? I think the rapport building
43:20
episode was the very last episode before this one.
43:23
So this your first time listening to the podcast.
43:25
Skip back and listen to that episode and you know what it is
43:28
that we're talking about. Now he also says we should do
43:31
something. No, but I'm going to give you
43:33
guys a strong warning here because this thing can backfire.
43:37
He said we should do mirroring. Now, mirror as in mirror, you
43:41
know when you're looking at your face.
43:43
So mirroring. The reason why this thing can
43:47
backfire is because when most people nowadays say mirroring,
43:50
what they mean is copycat. If the person is using slang,
43:53
copy the slang. If the person is standing up,
43:57
stand. If the person is sitting down,
43:58
sit. If the person leans to the left,
44:00
usually you lean to the left, the person leads to the right,
44:02
you lean to the right. If the person laughs like this,
44:05
ha ha, ha, ha, ha, you laugh like that, ha ha, ha, ha, ha.
44:09
That can cause problems because if you're trying to mirror and
44:12
what you're ending up doing is copycatting, it ends up feeling
44:15
weird and the thing freaks people out, freaks people out.
44:21
You're trying to build rapport, but if you're copycatting, you
44:23
will freak the other person out. And I said, now what's wrong
44:26
with this guy? Is he mad or he's just in
44:30
genuine or or what? So when you hear mirroring, if
44:34
you're going to do copycatting, please don't do that or the
44:37
thing will backfire. However, the idea or the concern
44:43
behind mirroring is this now we're all different.
44:45
So we need to match people, match their pace, match their
44:49
demeanor, match their speed, match their cadence, match their
44:51
body language. If that's what you're trying to
44:53
do, no problem. So if the person laughs, ho ho
44:58
ho, ho, ho ho, in my opinion, this is not the time to laugh ho
45:01
ho ho, ho ho. If the way you laugh is Kiki,
45:04
Kiki, Kiki, then no problem. The person has cracked a joke
45:09
and the person is laughing. You might laugh, but you can
45:11
laugh your own way. The most important thing is that
45:14
you know there's humor now and you're trying to match the mood
45:17
of what is going on. So the person can be laughing
45:19
ho, ho, ho, ho ho and you can be laughing Kiki, Kiki Kiki.
45:24
I don't laugh in public. I don't know why I just, you
45:28
know, smile and hold my sides. So if you're that kind of person
45:32
to who you don't even you don't have an outside laugh, then
45:35
well, I have an outside laugh, but that's from my wife and my
45:37
kids. So if you don't have an outside
45:39
laugh, then, you know, do your thing, you know, smile and hold
45:41
your sides and walk back and forth, you know, But The thing
45:45
is we're trying to match the demeanor, the pace, the cadence,
45:48
what is that is going on? But we don't have to mirror the
45:51
person. So it's not a matter of the
45:54
person is standing, I must stand, the person is sitting, I
45:56
must sit, the person needs to the left, Let me lean to the
45:58
left. If the person appears casual and
46:01
relaxed, then you might be casual and relaxed in your own
46:03
way. So if the guy's way of being
46:05
casual and relaxed is they are unbutting their shirt and then
46:08
they lean back. If in your life you will never
46:11
ever unbutting your shirt, there's no need to unbutting
46:13
your shirt. So if for you appearing casual
46:17
is, I don't know, maybe you put your barrel down and you lean to
46:22
the left, then yeah, do that. But you don't have to unbot in
46:25
your shirt and lean back because the person unbot in the shirt
46:27
and lean back. So please, those of you who talk
46:29
about mirroring, who are doing mirroring, please or be careful,
46:33
if you're doing copycat, the thing will backfire.
46:36
In fact, there's some people who start playing games with you.
46:39
They'll just start doing stuff to see how much it is that
46:42
you're going to mirror. Because when you start
46:45
copycatting, some people notice what is that is going on.
46:48
So the author, Jeremy here, which also says we should do
46:51
mirroring as a way of elicitation.
46:53
But mirroring, I put it at the bottom of the list because you
46:56
need to do it with caution. Don't become a copycat.
46:58
The thing will backfire. So that's it.
47:01
This is OK over 14 minutes. Let me just bring it to a close.
47:06
So if this is your first of all, listen to the episode to the
47:09
podcast. Please don't run away.
47:11
Most of my podcast episodes are usually 30 minutes.
47:13
So don't worry, it's not every episode that is going to last
47:16
this long, you know, like 15 minutes, then let's see.
47:21
OK, so if this is your first time listening to the show,
47:24
we've said a lot. Listen to this episode again and
47:26
then skip back one week. Listen to the whole series
47:29
because I did an intro to the book.
47:30
I did Chapter 1, I did Chapter 2, and then today's episode is
47:34
Chapter 3. Tomorrow we're going to move on
47:36
to Chapter 4. So that's all for today pretty
47:38
much. Thank you very much for your
47:39
time and attention. The phone number to reach out to
47:43
me on is 08064662140. Again, the country code is +234.
47:49
For those of you who are not Nigerian, that's my WhatsApp
47:51
number. Reach out to me.
47:52
Please don't send me any links. I don't know you yet.
47:56
Let's flow first elicitation. Let us flow back and forth, get
47:59
to know each other. Then you can start sending me
48:02
links and whatever it is that you think we need to have a look
48:06
at, you know, well, let's do some elicitation first.
48:09
Hope you guys are seeing now how it works.
48:12
So yeah, that's it. And then reach out to me on
48:15
LinkedIn the name to look for establish my IED.
48:19
I'm on LinkedIn, you can confirm the spelling of my name from
48:23
YouTube or the link where you're listening to the show.
48:26
So thanks for your time and attention.
48:27
I'll catch you guys at the next recording.
48:30
So Saturday as at this time of recording.
48:31
So hope you guys have a wonderful Sunday tomorrow and
48:35
yeah, I'll catch you guys then.