Latest / Mortgage Marketing Radio / Ep 47: How to Originate $50 Million Teaching Agent Classes

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Ep 47: How to Originate $50 Million Teaching Agent Classes · Mortgage Marketing Radio

0:00
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1:17
Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio.
1:19
Brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute.
1:22
It's your number one source for truth in mortgage marketing.
1:29
Hey listeners, Jeff Zimper, welcome to this episode of Mortgage Marketing Radio.
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So glad you're here.
1:40
So thrilled to bring my special guest, Mr. Vince Kingston to this episode of The Show.
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And the reason why is Vince is not only a top producing mortgage loan originator, producing
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four to five million per month, averaging about 50 million per year, pretty good, I'd
2:02
say in most people's book.
2:04
But Vince has a business model that is pretty unique in terms of how he gets his referrals
2:10
for real estate agents, you know, he's a specialist in first time home buyers and what we'll talk
2:16
about that on the podcast by the way about, you know, should I specialize, should I choose
2:19
a niche or not.
2:20
So for those of you who have submitted questions to me and asked me about, you know, Jeff,
2:24
should I choose a niche and what about losing the other business?
2:27
We unpack that with this conversation with Vince.
2:30
And if you do want to submit questions to me about anything, always email me at info at
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mortgagemarketinginstitute.com.
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But back to Vince's business model.
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Vince's unique and it is close to my heart in that Vince, the number one way that Vince
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gets, well, the way he gets all his business, as you'll hear from him shortly, is through
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teaching agent classes.
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And I saw what Vince was doing.
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We connected.
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I have him tell his story, his process, his system for attracting, capturing and converting
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real estate agents, what he teaches the subject matter, how he teams up with title affiliates
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to help him and how Vince is now shifting his model to do way beyond just CE courses,
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which is, and he'll, of course, reference the offering that we have, which is getpowerfulpresentations.com.
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So if after you listen to Vince's story, his, you know, his success rate, his, how he's
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generating this production and automating his follow up and really never having to chase
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a deal or beg for business or co-call or any of that kind of stuff, and you are hopefully
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by now convinced on the value of teaching agent classes, you'll hear Vince tell his story,
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how Vince is expanding his library of classes by teaming up with us here at the mortgage
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marketing institute, go and check out getpowerfulpresentations.com.
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If you want to take that next step and get started teaching agent classes, that will tell
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you all about how to get started with done for you agent classes, a library of PowerPoint
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presentations, speaker notes, video tutorials, the whole follow up system, everything souped
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nuts, and Vince happens to also be a member of getpowerfulpresentations.
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So the fact that he, you know, without any prodding on my own or anything like that, you
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know, gave us a glowing testimonial on our product and platform, well, that hopefully
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says a lot for you.
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So listen to Vince's podcast, take lots of notes, and most of all learn from it.
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And then if you are so inclined to want to take that next step, go check out getpowerfulpresentations.com.
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So without further ado, let's get into this week's show.
4:41
Hey Vince, welcome to the show.
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Thanks, chef.
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Happy to be here.
4:45
Yeah, thanks for being here.
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And so I wanted to bring you on the call today because you have what I think is a unique
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business model, and you know, I talked the other day about how you're actually capturing
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real estate agents and doing it in an extremely predictable, systematized way.
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That means no co-calling, no chasing, none of that stuff.
5:05
And yet you are consistently able to produce what, what is it, four million, five million
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a month?
5:11
Yeah, it's about between four or five, about fifty million a year, fifteen months a month,
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very consistently.
5:15
Yeah, very nice.
5:16
So for those listening, give us the quick, you know, story of Vince Kingston.
5:20
Where are you?
5:21
Who you're with?
5:22
How long have you been in the biz?
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So Vince Kingston, you go home mortgage Portland, Oregon, and been in the business since 2005,
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I feel like I was, you know, I didn't really understand my way until about, I would say,
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2012.
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So I was kind of halfway in, halfway out of the business.
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I feel like until 2012, all of those some stuff going on prior to that, sure we all remember.
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That made a difficult industry.
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But 2012 came to my current company very much on purpose, you go home mortgage because
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I had this, I had this intuition that I had to, I either had to change careers or I had
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to figure out a way to authentically and confidently engage in the actions I needed
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to do every day to be very successful.
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And so I switched companies to be able to, to offer some knit products and the rest
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of history, built everything around that.
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So I've been told so many times you can't base a business on product and I am here to
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tell you you can and you can be very successful if you build, you know, if all your platforms
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focus on, you know, specializing in those areas.
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So two things I heard in there, I want to unpack a little bit.
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One of them is kind of finding your way and then be successful, focused on a product.
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What did you mean by finding your way?
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You know, I didn't have something systematic, first of all.
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So to this day, I still have to refocus myself almost every day to like not be attracted
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to the shiny flashy objects, you know, and go in like too many different directions.
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And so for the first three or four years of my career, that's what I was doing.
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I was, you know, trying this fizzbo campaign and then this, you know, listing campaign
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and this new thing and that new thing, I didn't understand my own personal value proposition
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and took me years to figure that out.
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And then once I did, it's been a joy.
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It's been a real joy.
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I mean, there's still been challenges with building a team and everything, but it's such
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a joy once you figure out what your value proposition is and then it focuses all your
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efforts.
7:19
So that leads me to an obvious question, perhaps if you could articulate a bit your value
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proposition, what is that?
7:25
Sure.
7:26
So ever since 2012, or I would say actually late 2011 coming to EO home mortgage, I've
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nitched myself relentlessly.
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My favorite two words were actually my favorite three words when it comes to the mortgage
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business are niching or niching however you want to say that, scale and delegate.
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So I'm sure it's a scale and delegate later, but so I nitched myself relentlessly in
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first time home buyers.
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That's why I initially started and then I have a couple other that I've built on to
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that.
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And it was just, it was almost like a article of faith.
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I mean, like everyone, I don't care if it was a real or not.
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I mean, I tell homeless guy on the street, I serve first time home buyers better than
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any other lender in the city.
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And that's the demographic I want to serve.
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And then it really helped me go out there and be confident and get in front of agents
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because, you know, I can care less if they're working with other lenders.
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It's totally fine.
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And I honor that.
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But I know that I serve that first time home buyer demographic better than anyone else.
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And that's who I want to help serve with them.
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And so that has been very successful for me.
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So there's that for some home buyers and then a couple of years later after I've been
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pretty successful myself with rental real estate.
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I have six rentals now.
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I start niching, niching, niching and, you know, you can go with niching, man.
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Just go niching.
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I'm not.
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Exactly.
8:49
Exactly.
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I'm from Nebraska.
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So that's how you say in Nebraska, niching, I started doing this investment seminars that
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have been very, very successful and just focusing on that.
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And now I truly believe that, you know, anyone who has a desire to own multiple properties
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or does own multiple properties, I serve them.
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I serve them better than anyone in the city because I walk the walk.
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I teach classes and I understand the strategies that are inherent to those more sophisticated
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financing situations.
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So when you say investment seminars, what does that mean?
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You are running seminars for a perspective just, you know, every day, man on the street
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who wants to get investing in real estate?
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It's twofold.
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It's two consumers.
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So like what you were just described and then also two realtors, it's actually quite an
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appropriate continuum education class, you know, fits under the category of continuum
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education.
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It has a lot of real finance in it and everything.
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So to both those groups.
9:46
Interesting.
9:47
So how do you, on the consumer side, how do you get butts in the seats?
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How do you promote this?
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Get the word out.
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So a couple of different ways, we use EventRite extensively, like I know you do too.
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And I figured out years ago that if you hold a class consistently, you know, I'm not a
10:06
tech guy, I'm hired a marketing guy because I know I'm not a tech guy, but I do know this
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on EventRite.
10:11
If you hold a class consistently in the same place and you just keep on changing the day,
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then eventually EventRite starts organically driving traffic.
10:20
It's pretty amazing.
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And so we'll list the class on EventRite and, you know, we may get 20 to 30 signups through
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EventRite alone just organically.
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And then we do Facebook advertising for, you know, people who are interested in buying
10:34
investments and anyone who signs up for that or says they're interested, they get put
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on a drip campaign for investment-minded topics in addition to being fired at the class.
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And then we also leverage local agents.
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I mean, it's a great way for them to build their business.
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I have several agents that are being really successful with it.
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So they use their database.
10:53
Oh, regarding Facebook, how do you target that?
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What kind of options, you know, demographics are you picking there?
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How do you know they're like potential investors?
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Sure.
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So I told you delegation was my other pair of words.
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Is that like, is that like, I'm actually pulling all the letters out?
11:09
Hey, Sean, we have brought somebody else to the call, too.
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Ryan's in the other room, I can go grab him.
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I can fake it till I make it all.
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You're good, you're good.
11:20
So, you know, obviously we pick it, you know, it depends, you have different submarkets
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here.
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So if it's an inter-apportland, we'll pick a zip code that corresponds to that.
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If it's in Vancouver, one of the outer lying areas will pick zip codes that correspond
11:34
into that.
11:35
Certain income levels, certain ages, you know, most 18-year-olds aren't buying investment
11:38
properties.
11:39
So, you know, usually college educated, you know, we'll just, and that's how we'll try
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to.
11:46
So, you've made maybe certain amount of income, all that.
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Exactly.
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And then it's just different ads that are, you know, we're being fairly successful.
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And I mean, we have no problem generating leads.
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We have on Facebook.
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That's no problem.
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And I can just push a button and generate leads for about five bucks each.
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It's a little harder converting them, but I found it easier if I think about it as like
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a two or three step process, where I'm, you know, cultivating that lead, where first
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they pick a button saying they're interested in maybe investments, then they get a drip
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about different investment strategies, then they come to a class and then, you know,
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then they become a client at some point.
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Is that the process right there?
12:22
The ad is directing them to summed up of a lead capture page and then they're getting
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dripped on?
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We were doing that, and we found that Facebook has a new type of ad, I think it's only been
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around for about a year, where they don't even have to leave Facebook or conversion rate
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in terms of at least getting people to give their contact information and it's just
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skyrocketed.
12:43
Yeah.
12:44
And what you get from that is you get an Excel spreadsheet of their contact info, right?
12:47
Well, it gives you everything.
12:48
Yeah.
12:49
The reason the conversions go way up is because they see an ad and they click on it and
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ad just turns around, it says, are you, are you interested in receiving more information
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about this than they click?
12:57
Yes.
12:58
And then it gives you their information, their telephone number, their name, their email.
13:03
Yeah.
13:04
No, I've seen that before.
13:05
If my understanding is it, is that doesn't like automatically put them on, on some type
13:09
of a CRM, you still have to kind of manually import that over.
13:11
Actually, there's a patch you can buy.
13:14
There's like third-party services that will automatically push those in into your CRM.
13:20
Yeah.
13:21
We're getting a little technical here.
13:22
You're right.
13:23
Yeah.
13:24
And that's not my area of expertise.
13:25
I mean, that's.
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No, but that's good.
13:27
All right.
13:28
So that's one of the ways you've built your business to kind of bring us back.
13:29
Full circle is first-time home buyers and investment seminars.
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Let's go back to first-time home buyers for a minute.
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Why did you choose that as a niche?
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Because I want to be tactical as a policy model.
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I'm really trying to build a business by design.
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And so if you're in a competitive market space and you're building a business by design
13:47
that you want to be able to scale, and I always had a master plan, and like a lot of
13:52
a lot of a, I know I'm kind of, it seems like I'm digressing here, but I'm going to
13:54
get back to this like I think.
13:55
Like a lot of loan officers, it's almost like they believe you have to have a personality
14:00
cult to be successful, and like, I don't want my team to be about me.
14:04
I want my team to be about, you know, things that we serve people best with.
14:09
And so first-time home buyers are a unique platform for that, because A, nine to ten
14:13
lenders in my market don't offer for some home buyer programs.
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It's a very easy value proposition for me to walk in and make other lenders look poor,
14:21
I think.
14:22
I mean, it's very easy to say, oh, your preferred lender is such and such.
14:27
Well, here's the web pages right here.
14:30
They're not certified lender for these programs.
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I'm sure they're a great lender, but I really think you need to serve your first home
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buyers and make sure that they're working with a first-time home buyer advocate.
14:38
That's a really cool value proposition.
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So it was easy, and it made me feel special, you know, it's easy to sell when you think
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your product or your, or whatever you're offering is really special, compared everyone
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else.
14:49
What is the unique product or whatever that you're offering first-time home buyers?
14:52
Well, and here's where we get into, you know, marketing, and just saying something
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over and over until it becomes true.
15:00
So the underlying product is really only like three or four.
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It's not like I have, you know, ten unique products that no one else has.
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It's really only three or four, and there are many lenders who have some of those, but
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very few, if any, who have all of those.
15:17
And then if you position that correctly in a CE class, and then you do a good job of
15:23
proving to agents why your first time home buyer advocate above and beyond the special
15:27
programs, you just take them to normal, fan your Freddie guidelines.
15:30
I mean, you talk to them about, you know, how if anyone except IBR and how Freddie
15:34
will, you blow their minds.
15:35
You look like the first time home buyer expert.
15:37
So you just figure out how to speak to the challenges, and then I guess what I'm trying
15:42
to say is, yeah, I have some unique programs, but it's more about just determining I'm going
15:47
to be a first time home buyer expert, and then doing that, even without having so many
15:52
different programs.
15:53
Right, right.
15:54
Okay.
15:55
And branding or messaging around that first time home buyer concept.
15:58
Well, so getting back to the reason why we're chatting is the primary business model
16:04
to deliver that is the CE classes to agents, continuation classes.
16:08
Yeah.
16:09
So let's talk a little bit about that.
16:11
Are all the agent classes you do, CE?
16:13
Yeah.
16:14
That's why I was attracted to what you're making available in terms of the, you know, powerful
16:19
presentations, because I do recognize I need to branch out.
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I mean, I would be even more successful.
16:24
I will be more successful once I branch out.
16:26
And because I recognize that even though my business model is successful, I'm not going
16:30
to walk away from it.
16:32
I could leverage it very easily into non-CE classes, and I'd get a whole different demographic
16:37
of realtors who are never going to come to my product-based classes.
16:40
Right.
16:41
Exactly.
16:42
All right.
16:43
So let's kind of um, um, um, um, practice a bit more because I remember when I talked
16:44
to you, I want to summarize this and you can kind of correct my course here, but if
16:48
I understand, if I was to sum up your business model, you in terms of working with agents,
16:53
you 100% exclusively, the only way you attract capturing convert agents is through classes.
16:59
You don't call, call them.
17:00
You don't try and doorknob.
17:01
You don't go to open houses.
17:03
You don't chase and even after the classes, you don't even follow up.
17:08
So how accurate is that?
17:09
And you can comment as needed.
17:11
I believe it on.
17:12
It's completely accurate.
17:14
I am.
17:15
So people are listening and going, wait a minute.
17:16
What the hell?
17:18
Well, I get the classes, but what do you mean he doesn't follow up?
17:21
How the hell do you get business if you don't?
17:23
Yeah, go ahead.
17:24
We'll be back up.
17:25
So I do follow up, but I've been in a passive way because again, I'm trying to build business
17:29
by design and I encourage more people to think about that.
17:32
And so, and so back to niching, you know, I know I'm there.
17:36
I'm there to demonstrate that I'm a personal homeowner, homeowner advocate and to make them
17:40
believe that I'm the person who can serve their personal best.
17:44
All right.
17:45
I think I do a pretty good job doing that in a class.
17:48
And then all I've done is built a email campaign that specifically reciterates the specialized
17:56
programs and tactics that we have for first home buyers.
18:00
And then they go on that drip after the class.
18:02
So that's the only fall of it.
18:04
I don't personally follow up.
18:05
They just get a very specific niched email drip for that class.
18:09
Let me ask you a quick question.
18:10
On the first time home buyer classes, you've got CE credits attached to that.
18:13
How is that?
18:14
That's like a financing related class and that meets the requirements?
18:17
Well, yes.
18:18
And I recognize that I'm pretty lucky here.
18:20
I've been told Oregon is less strict than other states.
18:24
I've been told I've had colleagues on the state saying, you know, we can't do that here
18:27
because in Oregon, the title companies will certify you as long as it's a certifiable
18:31
subject.
18:32
Yeah.
18:33
Your material, unless I get really, really crafty, I won't be able to get that certified
18:36
CE.
18:37
But I'm going to try.
18:38
Trust me.
18:39
I'm going to try.
18:40
I love you to try.
18:41
Yeah.
18:42
Because you're right.
18:43
Every state has its own requirements for CE.
18:44
And if I throw enough economics statistics, I'll say, look, I'll go through 10 minutes
18:49
to boring statistics.
18:50
I will call the CE.
18:51
I don't know.
18:52
I got ideas.
18:53
I'll let you know on that.
18:54
That's cool.
18:55
But in any rate, as long as it's a subject that is certifiable, like real estate finance,
19:01
obviously, is a big, big one, then they'll certify it and they give the credit hours.
19:06
It's kind of a sweet deal.
19:07
That's awesome.
19:08
Okay.
19:09
So let's go back to your follow-up system.
19:10
So you do a class, let's just say it's the first time home by your class.
19:15
What does your post-event follow-up system look like?
19:17
How do you get business following the class?
19:20
It really is as simple as I do the class, I'm not making this up.
19:24
I do the class and I go back to my office and leads come in.
19:30
All right.
19:31
Man, you're selling the sizzle here.
19:35
I'm sorry to be not sophisticated enough, but that's pretty much what's got to be harder
19:41
than that, Vince.
19:42
Come on.
19:43
Well, first of all, I'm not scared of presenting, and I recognize people that would be really
19:50
hard for them if they had problems being in front of people.
19:53
Second of all, I think it's just doing a good job and just reiterating and proving
19:59
to people without selling yourself how you serve this one demographic.
20:03
I like using indicator words like service, and it teaches my team to say, we just want
20:09
to serve you the best way possible and stuff like that because then I just think you come
20:13
across and more sincerely.
20:14
So look, the biggest innovation I made with my classes is doing more of them.
20:19
I want to do more business, I just do more classes, and then building the email campaign.
20:24
I did that about a year and a half ago, and I think it's increased my conversions.
20:27
But before that, I would just do the classes and not even follow up with the email and I
20:30
would get business following.
20:31
All right.
20:32
So I'm going to come back to the email follow up a second, but I'm curious what was the
20:37
impetus or something that drove you to start doing classes because you're obviously
20:41
attached in a big way.
20:43
Why classes?
20:44
What happened?
20:45
What did you realize?
20:47
Why is that kind of your go-to strategy for realtors?
20:49
Sure.
20:50
Thanks for asking that question because it started with book called The Seven Levels of Communication.
20:54
You heard of it?
20:55
Michael Mayer, yeah.
20:56
He's been on the podcast.
20:57
Exactly.
20:58
I used to hand that out to all my agents, and I think it's probably one of the most
21:02
awesome books that I've ever read.
21:05
And it's a whole business plan.
21:06
There's lots of stuff unpacking that book, but the biggest takeaway I got, and then I've
21:11
lived by, obviously since then, is that you are wasting your time unless you're faced
21:16
to face with someone.
21:17
It's just junk, and you walk around a lot of mortgage offices, and there's just one
21:21
officer sitting in their office, and I'm like, you gotta go out there.
21:24
You gotta get out there.
21:25
I read that book in mid-2011, and then I said to myself, if I'm in a market, it has
21:33
to be face-to-face.
21:34
That's all I'm gonna do.
21:35
And so I started doing that, and at that time, I did go to broker-opens, but it was with
21:40
this same message.
21:42
I would pick, and tax credit or something, and I'd go create a flyer, and I would just
21:46
talk to people about it.
21:48
And it was very successful.
21:49
I was like, wow, I'm actually getting loans, talking to people.
21:52
And then the logical progression, I was like, well, it's kind of hard to go to talk to
21:56
onesy-twozy realtors, what if like, 20 would count in me, and I could tell how awesome
22:00
this program was.
22:02
And that messed this history.
22:03
Yeah, and so you got sold on that, because it's working smart, it's what I call the
22:08
law of large numbers, and once you've got a taste of that, you're like, oh man, this
22:11
sure beats onesy-twozy chasing and all that.
22:13
That's what I love scale.
22:15
That's my favorite word, though.
22:17
All right, so let's go back to, and by the way, have you ever called the agent some
22:21
just curious?
22:22
I did the, I know you're from the core, core coaching.
22:26
I did them in 2012, and so I did that horrible, horrible, exhausting call 40 or 50 realtors
22:35
every Monday, call 40 blah, blah, blah, Tuesday.
22:39
And you know what, I'm here to tell you, I guarantee that works, but it just sucks.
22:43
I mean, I want to do that, and I got business from it too, but it was like, quality of life
22:49
was really low.
22:51
So I did that for about six months, and now I train other people who work under me to
22:55
do that, because I do know it works.
22:58
But for me, classes work a lot better.
23:00
There you go.
23:01
And it's also positioning you in a different light, you know, to those agents.
23:07
You teaching a class as a whole different perception of positioning than you do in those
23:10
calls.
23:11
Yeah, doing the calls, you were just, you were, you were a beggar.
23:13
You're like every other one officer doing those same calls.
23:16
Yeah.
23:17
In fact, in fact, so many won't have to do those calls, I would get agents going, why
23:22
does all the loan officers call me on Monday, and you talk about not feeling special?
23:27
Exactly.
23:28
You automatically put yourself in a box, which again, it's part of the reason why I started
23:31
doing classes is because of those, those reasons.
23:33
I didn't want to look and sound like every other LL, because I'm not, you're not.
23:36
So, and it's up to what I'm hearing from you, Vince, is you, you know, like you said,
23:40
you wanted to work by design, take control of your marketing, your positioning, and you've
23:44
done that.
23:45
So far so good.
23:46
Yeah.
23:47
All right.
23:48
So back to your email follow-up system.
23:50
People want to know, man, what's in that magic system, how does it go out, what email
23:55
system do you use, and how many messages is there, you know what I mean?
23:59
That's where I'll start.
24:00
Sure.
24:01
So we use constant contact, because, you know, I mean, even though it's cheap, I mean,
24:08
even though I sound like tactical strategic and everything, most of everything else we do
24:12
is totally wrong.
24:13
Like, I'm doing 50 million a year and don't even have, I don't even have a CRM, which
24:16
don't, and my team is disappointed in that.
24:19
And that's one of my initiatives soon.
24:21
But, you know, I didn't even have a database until a couple of years ago.
24:25
So we just use a simple constant contact, but it might as well be MailChimp or whatever
24:29
else.
24:30
But we like constant contact, because frankly, it allows you to dump a lot of emails
24:34
in there without getting, you know, spam issues.
24:38
Or, you know, like everyone else makes you like verify that the person must receive a
24:42
email, which good, I mean, even people who love me usually verify, yes, I want to get
24:46
emails, you know.
24:47
So, anyways, look, that's a little tip, why we like constant contact.
24:50
And then there's about, I think there's about 20 emails, maybe 25 in the first time home
24:57
buyer drip.
24:58
We just have two drips with the first time home buyer and investment drip, and those
25:02
go out and then they just get recycled.
25:04
So after they after agent goes to the 25, it just starts over and then we can go through
25:09
it again.
25:10
Interesting.
25:11
And then the emails just, again, you're just on target.
25:13
I mean, just every single email is like first time home buyer, first time home buyer,
25:18
and who came up with the copy?
25:19
Who wrote it?
25:20
I did.
25:21
Okay.
25:22
How long did it take you to build out that series of 25 for our first timers?
25:25
It is kind of exhausting.
25:26
Well, you have to work, damn it.
25:30
I know.
25:31
You have to work a little bit, but at least only had to work a lot for like one week a year
25:36
and a half ago.
25:37
And then it's been paying dividends since then.
25:39
So, you know, and that at hours, I don't know, maybe 20 hours.
25:43
Okay.
25:44
Cool.
25:45
And in that email, is there a call to action in every one of those, or are they more like
25:48
informational?
25:49
Mix it up?
25:50
Mostly just, I mean, there's a simple call to action, you know, like, you know, call me.
25:55
Let's make a plan for your first time home buyer today or something like that.
25:57
I lay out text base.
25:59
No images?
26:00
Just text base.
26:01
Text base.
26:02
Okay.
26:03
Got it.
26:04
All right.
26:05
Very cool.
26:06
And do you like look at your open rates and all that stuff?
26:07
Or it's like that, not of interest?
26:08
Never?
26:09
Never.
26:10
Yeah.
26:11
Your success rate is somebody what sends you an email back or calls you with a referral?
26:13
No.
26:14
I know this sounds weird.
26:15
And it's hard to go off and for other people, but it's just, it's just faith-based.
26:18
It's, well, it's not faith-based.
26:20
It's, it's, I just know that if I do X-Mata classes, I'm going to close X-Mata loans from
26:25
those classes.
26:26
And it just, like, it just works like that.
26:29
So I don't have to, I don't have to micromanage smaller metrics, like open rates and stuff
26:34
like that.
26:35
I mean, I just look at the big overall metric of, okay, if I do X-Mata classes, then I'm going
26:40
to close X-Mata loan.
26:41
All right.
26:42
So let's talk about that a little bit.
26:44
What is that ratio of those numbers if you do X classes that equals X units or loans or
26:49
volume?
26:50
Right.
26:51
So that's a great question because, you know, everyone, like every year, everyone talks
26:54
about how you're going to write your business plan.
26:56
Yeah.
26:57
And, you know, I know this is going, Vince.
26:59
Go on.
27:00
You're 30 percent more likely to accomplish your goals if you're out of plan, blah, blah,
27:05
blah.
27:06
Well, I could never follow, like, more than, like, two things at once.
27:10
Usually, two things I couldn't do because it's busy.
27:13
So my business plan of, like, last three years, you know, January 1st was, like, double
27:18
your classes.
27:20
And then I just did that.
27:21
And then my volume, like, thinned and double, went up, but I went up by 40 percent, last
27:26
three years in a row.
27:27
And that's it.
27:28
That's my one-blind business.
27:29
Oh, my God.
27:30
I think people should try to streamline things out there and just write, you know, maybe
27:37
one thing.
27:38
It'll probably be successful.
27:39
Yeah.
27:40
But how many classes do you do a month?
27:41
Okay.
27:42
So now, you know, I started out doing, like, one quarter, I think I was like, 2013, then
27:46
I went to, like, you know, one a month, 2014, I was like, wow, maybe if I do two a month,
27:52
I'll be really successful.
27:53
And then, so I think I did that in 2015 and 2016, my goal is to do three to four months,
27:59
and I hit that pretty close.
28:01
And now I'm doing bare minimum four months, but usually six to eight, like I did nine
28:06
last month.
28:07
Wow.
28:08
And you typically do them at the same place?
28:10
No.
28:12
We've grown in our strategy.
28:14
So we have different micro markets.
28:17
We're active in a tri-county area.
28:19
So we'll do one in like Multnomah County, and then one in Washington County, and then
28:22
one in Clackin's County, and mix them up, because we don't want to, we don't want to
28:26
hit the same realtor as too many times to get unsubscribed.
28:31
So we've broken the realtor database into three segments, geographical, and then we just
28:36
rotate the classes right under there.
28:38
So taking that same class, the first time home virus class, what rotation would you
28:41
be on?
28:42
Let's say, just pick Seattle for simplicity.
28:44
So you did a first time home virus class yesterday in Seattle.
28:48
How soon would you come back with that same class?
28:51
I would say once a month.
28:53
Once a month.
28:54
Okay.
28:55
Got it.
28:56
Rotation.
28:57
Yeah.
28:58
Like we try to do a class, well maybe once every other month, because I want to do the
28:59
same class the very next month, I have like four CE classes.
29:02
So, you know, probably I'd let it rest for a couple of months before I hit the same
29:05
counting or something with the same class.
29:07
Got it.
29:08
Okay.
29:09
But obviously you're not getting the same realtor's back, because they already got the CE
29:11
credits for that.
29:12
Right.
29:13
Okay.
29:14
And the average attendance at your classes?
29:15
That's another thing I did.
29:16
So, when I used to do the classes, I would rely on the tile companies to market them,
29:20
which is just such a limiting belief.
29:23
I don't know why I did that.
29:24
And, you know, the average class in years past would be like five or ten realtor's.
29:29
And, you know, sometimes it takes me a long time to figure out really simple things.
29:33
And my big aha moment was like, wow, if I could get like 20 or 30 realtor's per class,
29:39
I could probably be more successful.
29:42
And it turns out that that's true.
29:45
If you get like 30 realtor's instead of 10 realtor's per class, you go close to ones.
29:49
And so now my average is about, I'd say about 20 to 30, because we've gone the extra distance
29:56
and built a whole, you know, more or less email campaign around how to get people in
30:03
the class to come to the class.
30:05
Speaking of that, you are emailing your database every time you're doing a class in that area.
30:09
Right.
30:10
But, you know, like I said, rotating through those segmented realtor lists.
30:13
Yep.
30:14
Okay.
30:15
So, you still partner with the title companies to help fill the room?
30:17
Well, yeah, I need them because they offered the CE.
30:20
Oh, that's right.
30:21
Got it.
30:22
Yeah.
30:23
They don't let a mortgage company offer the CE.
30:24
Yeah.
30:25
They're definitely unique up there because they do do that in a lot of different states.
30:28
Now, I'm always teaching encouraging LLOs, especially when they're getting started with their
30:31
classes to team up with your title, escrow affiliates, all those people because they can help
30:36
fill the room until you kind of get off the ground on your own.
30:39
And they don't get me wrong.
30:40
They still do it.
30:41
It's just that now we do it as well.
30:45
Yeah.
30:46
So, as you know, I'm doing a class tomorrow where I think the title agent, she got like
30:49
nine or ten signups, what we have 25 from our own efforts.
30:53
So instead of being like a 10 person class, it's going to be like a 35 person class.
30:57
Yeah, exactly.
30:59
Very cool, man.
31:00
Very cool.
31:01
So, you're not on, you do anything other than you're running your Facebook ads for your classes,
31:05
but you're not really like trying to be the guy on social media, right?
31:11
Facebook, all that kind of jazz.
31:12
Well, I am, but this is all just like secondary and tertiary stuff.
31:17
Okay.
31:18
Yeah.
31:19
It's a big word I'm working on.
31:20
It's not a, it's just not my core business model, but you know, I'm trying to make it all
31:25
work together, but I don't get leads like like we do this branding thing on Facebook,
31:29
which is kind of cool.
31:30
It's really cheap.
31:31
But it's just to support what I've already told the Reelers that I first on home buyers.
31:36
So you can do branding ads to a very targeted group like just Reelers and it's not like
31:42
you get charged like a buck every time I click it like you can, people will see it.
31:47
They'll just see your picture saying you're the first home buyer expert for like two pennies.
31:51
So we spend a little bit of money every month branding.
31:54
Can you trace that to anything?
31:55
Well, not really, except for, you know, like I was doing class last week and or gentlemen,
32:01
or Reelers sit in the front row, you know, I walk in and he's like, hey, I know you.
32:04
I've seen your pictures on Facebook and I'm like, well, here you go, you got me in person
32:09
now.
32:10
And so, no, it's like a kind of a soft thing, like a subjective thing.
32:14
You can't tell it's not like where I do a class and someone said, I'm calling you because
32:17
I Reelers said you did this class, but that you keep top of mind for your niche because
32:23
of that.
32:24
Yeah, exactly.
32:25
It's a brand of thing.
32:26
Like you said, top of mind awareness.
32:27
And you're not really driving a lead, a call to action on that.
32:29
It's more of an awareness.
32:30
And it's cheap.
32:31
It's super cheap.
32:32
Like for $80 a month, I can be viewed by almost every Reelers on Facebook in the whole
32:37
track area.
32:38
Yeah.
32:39
So that just feeds into everything else you're doing in your local market there.
32:41
Right.
32:42
That's cool.
32:43
One quick question about niching because you clearly chose a couple of niches out of the
32:48
gate.
32:49
Every time an LL asks me about niching, right, and if you've heard this before, maybe
32:53
had a similar concern, which is, well, gosh, if I choose to go with a niche, am I going
32:58
to lose out on all that other business?
33:00
I don't know if you've thought of that or heard that, but what would you say to that?
33:02
I would say that it's just the complete opposite.
33:06
This is not my original idea, but it's my original thought.
33:09
But I heard someone vocalize it perfect a couple of days ago where they were saying that,
33:14
you know, if you, a commodity tries to be everything to everyone, especially in the lender
33:19
game.
33:20
And, you know, like a luxury item knows that it can't be everything to everyone.
33:24
It only wants to serve, you know, the demographic that it serves best.
33:29
And I don't want to be a commodity.
33:31
And plus I want to build an efficient business.
33:33
And here's an efficient business where someone calls you and they're already sold.
33:37
Yeah.
33:38
Sell me one.
33:39
I mean, they call me, all I do is reiterate, yes, you're Realtors, right?
33:44
We do specialize in all the area, first home, home, buyer programs.
33:47
I can't wait to help you with your first home.
33:49
Boom.
33:50
That's like, I'm done.
33:51
I just sent them a link to the online application.
33:53
That's it.
33:54
I don't have to resell them.
33:55
So, I think if you niche yourself properly, you can create the most efficient business
34:00
ever.
34:01
And it's just totally the wrong mindset to think you can like be everyone to everyone
34:06
and somehow be successful.
34:07
I don't think you can.
34:09
What was that you said about a luxury brand knows it's a luxury brand knows that it's
34:14
only going to appeal to a very narrow part of the market.
34:19
That's all they care about.
34:20
So think how efficient that is.
34:21
Oh, my gosh.
34:22
I only care about this little teeny narrow place, but I can make a amazing living just on
34:27
that instead of trying to care about the whole marketplace where there's too much noise
34:30
and you'll never be everything to everyone.
34:32
Yeah.
34:33
So that doesn't let's just say you get somebody who's a move up buyer, right?
34:35
They come to you by way of a rail to referral.
34:38
How do you handle that?
34:39
Of course.
34:40
Then we go on a salesman, that's a great question because then we go on a salesman.
34:45
Of course, we don't say, hey, we specialize in first time homebuyers in your move up
34:47
buyer.
34:48
We don't say that.
34:49
Right.
34:50
You know, that just happens to be your specialty is first time homebuyers, but we also
34:55
handle.
34:56
But I think the point you're making for those listening is, look, you got to have to
34:59
your two-point vince is, you got to be a specialist, right?
35:01
Who makes more?
35:02
The old cliche generalist or specialist who you think about doctors?
35:05
Let's make a hell of a lot more per hour, right?
35:07
So you've got to specialize and become known for something.
35:10
But that doesn't mean you're saying no to the peripheral business that's going to come
35:14
simply by way of that.
35:16
And I love what you said.
35:17
You go into sales mode.
35:18
Right.
35:19
We go into sales mode, but let me give you another example of how it does lead to, you
35:22
know, just because I'm really focused on this, it doesn't mean I don't do lots of different
35:26
loans, you know, jambos, move up buyers, whatever.
35:29
So like another C class I do is renovation financing.
35:32
And I love rehab financing because again, there's only five lenders, five or six lenders
35:39
maybe out of, you know, 100 different lenders in our market who offer renovation financing.
35:44
So definitely very unique.
35:46
And here's the thing, 99% of people will never, ever use that loan, but I get remembered.
35:51
People call me like, am I real or said, you're the only one who does rehab financing?
35:55
And I'm like, awesome.
35:56
I sell them on rehab financing.
35:57
So I speak to them right away about why they called me and sell them on that.
36:00
But then, you know, too much later, they're just doing a regular conventional loan.
36:03
And I'm getting that commission because that makes sense.
36:07
I got remembered for something unique that just led to a normal loan that I would not
36:11
have gotten.
36:12
Yeah.
36:13
Yeah, exactly.
36:14
You got to be known for something.
36:15
Or, you know, like you said, okay.
36:18
So just closing out here last couple of minutes, I'm obviously thrilled that you're expanding
36:22
your library of classes.
36:26
And, you know, for those listening, you reference, get for powerful presentations, which
36:31
has some other non-CE topics like video marketing, millennial marketing, etc.
36:37
Do you have that next non-CE class on a calendar yet?
36:41
No, I knew you were going to ask me that.
36:43
Put me on the spot.
36:45
It's going to be on.
36:46
It's going to be on.
36:47
I'm really excited about it.
36:48
And, you know, I have my own ideas like I think we're going to combine a couple of those
36:53
classes.
36:54
Because.
36:56
I've already been successful with like Facebook marketing.
36:59
And so I can take and end the video market.
37:01
I mean, I do have lots of videos online.
37:03
Where?
37:04
And YouTube?
37:05
Where?
37:06
Yeah, you go.
37:07
Just go on YouTube.
37:08
I have like 20 or 30 videos on YouTube.
37:10
I actually get loans off of those.
37:12
Not definitely not like the CE classes, but I will get a call, you know, once or twice
37:16
a month.
37:17
It's not a big deal.
37:18
But once or twice a month, I got a call.
37:19
And I'll close like three or four loans a year because of those, excuse my French for
37:23
their crappy videos.
37:24
I'm professional.
37:25
I thought you didn't speak French with the niche.
37:28
Yeah.
37:29
I know.
37:30
I've given you some contributions here.
37:31
But anyway, you know, I'm really excited to teach those classes.
37:33
I think what you're offering is a really, really great service.
37:37
And I think it's really fair price.
37:38
I'm just being totally honest about that.
37:40
Yeah.
37:41
Well, thank you.
37:42
I didn't set you up for that at all.
37:43
Appreciate that.
37:44
We're really hoping to expand that and offer more topics.
37:46
I'm on your YouTube page.
37:47
And by the way, we'll put links in the show notes to all this kind of stuff.
37:51
I'm curious because everybody's right.
37:52
And they start, you know, every loan office is like, man, I got to get going with video.
37:56
I got to get social media, all that kind of stuff.
37:58
But I like, you know, it's like you've established, look, man, get your core business, your foundation
38:03
built.
38:04
And the message I heard you say there per the book from Michael Mayer is, unless you're
38:08
face to face, right, you're wasting time now.
38:11
How you get face to face, though, may include lots of different other elements like, you
38:15
know, Facebook, et cetera, like you're talking about.
38:18
So I'm curious with your videos because I'm just, I've got my L.O. cap on and all of a sudden
38:22
you see the text over video and everybody wants to know, how did you do that, man?
38:26
Do you got your tech person?
38:28
Would you do?
38:29
They're looking at my one of my deals right now and it has text over it.
38:32
Yeah.
38:33
It says, well, just the thumbnail, why you should buy home in Portland.
38:36
Okay.
38:37
Well, that's totally compliments of my marketing guy because I don't know how to do that
38:39
stuff.
38:40
Yeah.
38:41
So next time we can interview him, I'll be happy to.
38:44
There you go.
38:45
I made the videos.
38:46
You know, you've seen them.
38:47
Well, who's videotaping you?
38:48
You have somebody on staff or what's that up?
38:50
Some of them, you know, like a couple of those were professionally made, but I'd say about
38:55
half of them are just in my home office.
38:58
I found it.
38:59
No, it was just on my laptop.
39:01
Laptop.
39:02
Damn, is that easy?
39:04
It really is that easy.
39:05
I mean, but back to your point, like once in a while those do SEO because I give you Google
39:10
used to be better.
39:11
They used to put video on the front page of just search and now you have to actually
39:15
click on images.
39:17
But if you click on images in my market, you know, I'm for some of those things like personal
39:21
homebires.
39:22
I'll be like first page, but it really is just to reinforce the first time homebires
39:27
of after I've done a class and gotten in front of someone.
39:30
Yeah.
39:31
So I think for me, the big takeaway is, look, your number one primary source of business
39:34
is the classes, is real estate agents.
39:37
Everything else is just complimentary to that.
39:39
Totally.
39:40
Everything else just supports that and doesn't contradict that.
39:42
Let me ask you this question, and then we got to wrap up.
39:44
But you still feel though, I mean, it's pretty clear to me, but I'll just ask you for
39:48
the listeners to clarify, you still feel having a presence online, sharing content is relevant
39:53
and important in your overall branding marketing strategy.
39:57
I think that's a great question, and I want to give a disclosure that, you know, I totally
40:03
may not be correct, but I think people put maybe a little too much emphasis on that.
40:08
You know, I think if you didn't have a webpage, but you went out and got face to face
40:12
of 10 billers per day, you're going to be, you're going to make a quarter of my dollars
40:15
here.
40:16
I mean, people put way too much emphasis, I think, on this online stuff, and I get it,
40:21
and I'm, I'm building an infrastructure around it, but that's after I've already gotten
40:26
to this certain level and had nothing to do with like online stuff.
40:29
So yes, it's important, but it's important as just a supporting vehicle, supporting infrastructure
40:35
if you will, around going out and doing classes or creating relationships or something.
40:39
That's my personal.
40:40
I love it.
40:41
I love it.
40:42
I agree.
40:43
The core foundation for everything else, right?
40:44
Cool.
40:45
Well, listen, I know you're busy, and you've got lots of stuff to do for anybody who wants to
40:49
reach out to you.
40:50
How would you suggest they contact you?
40:52
They can just call me.
40:53
I'll be happy to chat.
40:54
You know, I'm a real person, or they can email me at minskinksthanategalagem.com.
40:58
Minskinks?
40:59
Yeah.
41:00
I'm sure you'll be busy doing a class or something like that, responding to all those
41:05
emails.
41:06
Are there going to be thousands?
41:08
Come on.
41:09
No.
41:10
I mean the emails from the agents.
41:11
Oh, the agents.
41:12
Yeah.
41:13
Yeah.
41:14
I guess we didn't talk about delegate yet.
41:16
Maybe that's another.
41:17
Yeah, go ahead.
41:18
Real quickly.
41:19
How do you delegate all this?
41:20
So you don't have to do it all?
41:21
I feel very lucky being in the mortgage industry because as a realtor, you're like on your
41:23
own, hiring independent contractors, and with, you know, if you're aligned with the right
41:27
mortgage company, they'll support your success by basically, you know, you can hire people
41:32
as employees.
41:33
And so every time I meet a volume milestone, I know go back to management and say, okay,
41:39
I did my part and met this volume milestone.
41:42
I'm going to hire another person and they're to their credit are like, yeah, you earned
41:46
it.
41:47
And so I hired another person.
41:48
So now I got five people on my team and, and I'm just able to delegate everything except
41:55
the classes almost.
41:56
Yeah.
41:57
So I don't know if we're out of time, but I think it's really interesting subject because
41:59
I think a lot of people are afraid to do that and I was afraid to do it as well.
42:03
But it's like, and a lot of agents, I have to admit, don't understand it.
42:05
It's just, you know, division of labor.
42:08
This is not a new concept.
42:09
Henry Ford came in with it a long time ago, you know, if like, if you have one person devoted
42:14
to only pre-approvals, that person is a pre-approval monster.
42:18
She doesn't do sales, she doesn't do processing, she doesn't chase conditions, she just does
42:23
pre-approvals.
42:24
Or if you have one person devoted only to closing loans, that's all they do.
42:27
They're not after doing sales, not after doing the fifth yellow things.
42:30
And I think it creates a very efficient situation.
42:33
Well, how did you deal with the issue of cost, right, when you decided to hire your first
42:38
assistant or whatever?
42:39
It was that something you had to kind of deal with?
42:41
Well, again, I recognize I'm lucky because I align myself with the right company and
42:46
all the company to do this.
42:47
But once I hit a certain milestone, you know, loosely it was about one and a half million
42:51
a monthly production.
42:53
They would pay for your assistant and you could choose to bonus them.
42:57
So I further incentivize, so everyone gets a base salary paid by the company.
43:01
But then I've chosen to further incentivize my people by paying them a part of my basis
43:06
points.
43:07
And I believe strong in that because I, first of all, I make them do a lot.
43:10
And second of all, I want them to be incentivized like I am.
43:14
And so I'm very proud that I have five people on my team and they all make really, really
43:18
good income.
43:19
That's awesome, man.
43:20
Good for you.
43:21
Well, maybe what we could do is have you back and unpack a little bit building a team
43:24
because I know that's a very frequent topic that comes up for me and some of the coaching
43:29
that I do is, how do I build that team?
43:31
How do I hire?
43:32
Who should I hire?
43:33
How do I make sure I got the right person on the bus, you know, all those kinds of things?
43:36
I'm hiring two more people right now.
43:38
So I'm still learning as I go, but I'd be happy to chat about it.
43:40
Oh, that'd be great, man.
43:41
Well, well, damn.
43:42
Look at that.
43:43
Hiring two more people.
43:44
Hey, if you haven't got it already, people.
43:45
I think that class is pays off.
43:47
So, yeah, hey, man, I appreciate it very, very much.
43:52
And next time I'm up, now, where do you importantly, you said, right, Portland, Oregon?
43:56
Yeah, Portland, Oregon, offices are tired, but that's just a little suburb to the south.
44:01
All right.
44:02
So, come on up.
44:03
I'll be together.
44:04
Yeah, there you go.
44:05
That's right.
44:06
Micro-brews.
44:07
Appreciate the time.
44:08
Thanks, everybody, for listening.
44:09
And if you haven't yet subscribed to iTunes, please do so.
44:12
If you like this episode, leave us a rating.
44:14
Subscribe to the podcast so you get notified of each new one coming out.
44:18
And once again, for your listeners, I appreciate you and we'll look forward to seeing you on
44:22
the next one.
44:23
Bye for now.
44:24
Thanks for listening to Mortgage Marketing Radio, one more truth in Mortgage Marketing,
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