Latest / Psyched For Sanity / Episode 21 - Emotions 101: Sadness

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Episode 21 - Emotions 101: Sadness · Psyched For Sanity

0:12
SPEAKER_01: Hello, welcome to Psyched for Sanity.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm one of your co-hosts, Dr.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: Tara McKelvey Parker.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: And I am your other co-host.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: My name is Dr.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Brendel Doss.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm a licensed psychologist specializing in trauma treatment.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: I almost said attachment again.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I do that sometimes.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: I don't specialize in attachment.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: Forensic psychology, geriatric psychology, and trauma treatment.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: And tell us the silly thing about your silly.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it is.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: And I have a favorite word that I've had for a very long time.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: What is that word?
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Conundrum.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Hmm, conundrum.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: Just rolls right off the tongue.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: Conundrum.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: I just like the word and I also like the meaning.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Why do you like the word?
0:59
SPEAKER_00: I just, I just I like the I I don't know.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: It's just like a fun word and it's also like it's like a conundrum.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: It's a con it's a it's a fancy way.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Do you know I'm fancy?
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: I it's a fancy way for saying a complex problem.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: Conundrum.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: You're like that.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: You're a complex problem.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Ouch.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Like as a person.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: That's that sad.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: Et too brute?
1:22
SPEAKER_01: Et too?
1:23
SPEAKER_01: Loving, lovingly loving.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Conundrum.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: I just want to be on like I'm just so sad right now.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: No, really.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: You just like said I'm I'm a problem as a person.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: I didn't mean it that way, but this is so appropriate for our episode today.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: The conundrum or me being like problems.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh me being sad.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: I love you so much.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Love you too.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: And being a complex problem is an interesting thing to be.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like I'm going to just not be a problem now.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: Problems isn't too negative anyway.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Comfort.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: We know that I like to binge watch.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: I just watch the same shows over and over and over for comfort.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: As you do.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: It's been a while since I've seen a new show.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: And recently I re-watched all seven seasons of Sabrina the Teenage Witch.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: How many seasons are there?
2:14
SPEAKER_01: There are seven seasons of that show.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: I thought you said 17 for a minute.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: No, that would be, I mean, that would be a lot.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: Seven was a lot.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: It was a real commitment.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: But it was it was a real commitment for me.
2:24
unknown: Okay.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: TV sh new TV shows require commitment.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: Any kind of, you know, so I like have to really.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: But it was so comforting.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: It was like so nostalgic.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: It's I've watched I've watched it before.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: And this is like not the first time I've re-watched it.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, like it made me think about how much I love Magic and Harry Potter, and like it's that all of that stuff was like so comforting for me growing up.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: So it was like a good feeling.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: And you know, comfort is one of the things that help when we are feeling sad.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: Like when you made me feel sad earlier.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: So I did it.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: That was not on purpose, but maybe a part of me was trying to cue up for this episode.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: You're always thinking in the game.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: She's always hosting, she's always prepping and tying in.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Because we're gonna we're talking about sadness.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: Sadness, loneliness.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in our in our Emotion 101 mini series, we thought that sadness would be a good next one.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: To cover.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, um, sadness is one of the hard is one is a harder one for me.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: Sadness, I think it's hard for like the world in general.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I think there is I I know, I think there's quite a bit of shame and stigma around being sad or being depressed.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: Even some depression is normal, but that's kind of like, you know, poo-pooed on a little bit.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: Um I think that lots of people associate sadness with being weak or silly or it's just I think so uncomfortable for people.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: So when you see someone that is sad or depressed, um, there's this idea, like the common thing that's said over like from the time children are small to even when we're grown-ups and adults, it's oh, don't cry.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, don't cry.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: Don't cry.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it'll be it'll be okay.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: Well, you're too sensitive.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
4:13
SPEAKER_01: Right?
4:13
SPEAKER_01: You're too sensitive.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: It's not that big a deal.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: It's not that big of a deal.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: Right.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: Eggs.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: And these are things that you know, we sometimes say because it's a discomfortable, it's uncomfortable for us to experience someone else's heart, especially in our kids.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes we say yeah, try to kind of get them to feel better.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: But that's how we develop shame around feeling and expressing sadness.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: And sadness is actually a really important feeling.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: So important.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: As you probably know from inside out, one of my favorite movies.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: Yes, sadness is very important.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, but I I think as much as you we kind of know that intellectually, it's really hard to notice, I think, when we're feeling sad and to sort of express it and to feel better.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: So we wanted to talk a little bit about that today with sadness.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: So I know this might sound kind of silly or redundant, but I always we always like to in these episodes like help and define our kind of conversations and our topics and kind of set parameters.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: So, like, could you help our audience understand like what is sadness?
5:16
SPEAKER_00: And then we'll kind of talk about the purpose.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, sadness is just a of an experience of loss, right?
5:26
SPEAKER_01: Change, um, disconnection.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's when the word has come into my mind.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Loneliness.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Loneliness and disconnection.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's really about it's about that.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, so when we feel sad, like the idea is that there is something we've lost.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: There's something that we, you know, we're feeling lonely, we're needing connection, comfort.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Um this one I didn't know, but when I was thinking about this episode and doing a little bit of research, I I hadn't really thought about sadness this way, but sadness often helps highlight what matters to us, what's meaningful for us.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: Right, puts your values in perspective.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: Puts your values in perspective.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: Like if we feel sad over something, it may it may reflect like a loss of a value or a betrayal of a value, or you know, just some something we've lost that really mattered to us, whether that is a person or a situation or an idea, or even a part of yourself, or a part of yourself, like it literally just loss and disconnection is what the feeling is really meant to help us understand is happening for us.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: That's the message.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: So then if that's that's sort of what it is, like the message would be what is the like I always try to help people, and I think you do this as well, and we kind of do this even on the podcast when we talk about emotion.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: I like to help people frame emotions as messengers.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: So, what would you say the message of sadness is?
6:47
SPEAKER_00: Like we experience sadness for a reason.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: What is it trying to tell us to do or to experience?
6:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, I I think it it's just saying like you've lost something, somewhat, you just lost something that's very important.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: You feel disconnected from something that really matters to you.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: Um and but I also think that it can be also like a bid for connection.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh, sure, sure, sure.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: The message of sadness is to Right.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the flip side of it.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: It's about it's it's about loss and disconnection.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, one of the things then that we want to encourage people once we recognize, you know, that we're feeling sad, then yeah, connection with something.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: Like it's a signal, I guess.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a signal.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, just like all the emotions are signals um in some kind of a way.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: Sadness is one, you know, I think we all we all think about sadness and crying as like pretty common manifestation, but there's a lot of different ways that sadness can show up.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Tons of ways.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Um and for in particular for me and for in in my sort of journey over the past couple of years, I've had to really like like really dig in and get to some of those more subtle indicators of sadness so that I can allow myself to like feel it.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: Now, what would be a subtle indicator of sadness?
8:02
SPEAKER_01: So, so one, so you know, like we've talked about in our emotion one-on-one miniseries, emotions are usually experienced in a variety of ways.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: One of them is physiological, right?
8:14
SPEAKER_01: So, like bodily sensations.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: So, what I have learned to do, because I'm I'm trying to connect more with my sadness and more more with my grief about hard things that have happened to me in my life.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: One of the ways to work through those events is to be able to grieve about what happens.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: So to be sad and to be angry.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so sadness is hard for me to experience until I'm like bawling.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I don't notice otherwise.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: So I will I've made it a habit to do like a somatic meditation, like a body scan.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: And I've noticed that when I what's what's connected to sadness in my body is like this pit in my stomach.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: And this tightness behind my shoulder blades.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: And if I sit with that sensation for long enough, it's kind of it sounds woo-woo, but you can kind of follow the sensation out, and then I just like floodgates open.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: Who exists for a reason?
9:15
SPEAKER_01: It's all in your body, and but that's taken me, that's taken me a while to sort of figure out and hone.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: But there are a lot of physiological manifestations of sex.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: What are some other physiological manifestations, would you say, for sins?
9:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, what else?
9:29
SPEAKER_01: Like um def like a tightness.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: Tightness.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: Some people feel tightness in their chest.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: Like it the eyes kind of prick like they're feeling like they're about to cry.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: That kind of like yeah.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: Um or the tightness in the throat.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: It's sort of like that sensation of wanting to cry because really sadness needs to come out in crying.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's pretty, it's important.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: We'll talk about the research later, but it's real important.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I think just heaviness.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: I think for a lot of people it feels like just like heavy, kind of like a weary feeling, maybe.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or like you're drudging through quicksand, just kind of like uh, you know, like that sort of like can be a a physiological manifestation of sadness.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes hunger can be too.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's one way to start paying attention to sadness in your body.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, what are some other ways?
10:19
SPEAKER_01: What what else do we think about when it comes to sadness in terms of like cognitive, you know, what cognitive manifestations of sadness?
10:26
SPEAKER_00: Gosh, I feel like there's so many.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: I know.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think for cognitive manifestations of sadness, it just feels kind of like it might be what we've talked about in previous episodes, like elements of cognitive distortions potentially can be tied in with that.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: Could be.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: I think any kind of like probably thought about loss, disconnection.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: I miss her.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I miss so and so because of death or or they moved away.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: Disconnection.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, disconnect yeah, break in the relationship.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: Yes, a break in the relationship.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, I feel unseen.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: It can even be moments of loss in conversations, right?
11:01
SPEAKER_01: With like a friend or a partner if you really don't feel seen.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: That feels like a loss and that can feel really sad.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, so any any kind of cognition like that would kind of maybe cue you into some sadness, I would think.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: Behavioral is a little easier.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: Behavioral manifestations or sadness of sadness are maybe what people notice more.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: Because they're a little bit more obvious.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: That's the kind I think that creates such discomfort in others.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't you say?
11:27
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: The crying.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Crying.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's hard to see people cry.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I think it it takes I think w we're not in our in our Western civilization, uh, in our society, in our culture.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, at least where we're currently in the current exact position in the world.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: Um I think strength is a huge value, like, you know, in our culture.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: So definitely, I think going back to your comment that crying is equated to weakness.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: And I think when you see someone crying, I think it distresses us so much that we don't um we want to like minimize it and get rid of it because it's just so Yeah, we I think people tend to lean dismissive when it comes to sadness.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's you know, like I just go back to parenting.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: I think there are some parenting, you know, I think we want to make our kids feel happy.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: And so we, you know, I think we tend to want to cheerleader kind of make him feel better.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: But it is actually very important to let your kid cry or to just be able to cry and like not feel shame about it.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: But that's one of the ways I think that people learn to suppress or avoid sadness, and that can have consequences.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: I want to get to the contour in a minute, but I really want to talk about, I think we should talk about here, like something that I think kind of rocked both of our worlds as as we were discussing this in preparation for today's episode is like the almost neurobiological reason why crying is so critical.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: It's really important.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: Like it literally, I mean, and I I kind of knew this, but not really knew this when we when we like really looked it up.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: But it was kind of a very exciting tidbit of information.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, we both we both got so jazzed by this.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: We're so excited about said like literal crying in increases endorphins and oxytocin.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: So these do you want to tell?
13:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what are these hormones?
13:13
SPEAKER_00: Crying, the the physical act of crying releases these really important um uh you know, oxytocin and endorphins, which are like positive, like happy love, comfort, comfort hormones, if you will, or you know.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: And then it decreases cortisol, which is the stress hormone of the body when you cry.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: And it activates the parasympathetic nervous system.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes, which shifts you from kind of like an active fight or flight state down to a into a calm, regulated of homeostasis with emotion and and and everything else in your body.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: Breathing, respiration, heart rate.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: Everything.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think I've talked about Pete Walker on here before.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: He's a big complex PTSD researcher and therapist, but you know, he talks about emotional flashbacks, and one of the surest, quickest ways to actually break out of an emotional flashback, really, right, which is that shame, fear loop.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: Yes, um, is crying.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: Because it activates the parasympathetic nervous system and you feel safe.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: Right.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: The threat goes down.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's one of the ways that we need to grieve to heal from trauma and just distress, you know, any kind of chronic tension.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, this is so cool.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: Like I knew this, but didn't know this.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: And also, like, it makes me feel I I I love this research for our listeners who may have some shame around feeling sad.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: We're literally biologically wired.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Like it's so important.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: Almost like the way we'd say it clinically, it's medically necessary that you cry.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: And I can now say that to people confidently.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: It's like medicine, it's literal medicine.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: Right.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: It's medicine for your body to feel better.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: Medicine that's completely natural.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: In there.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: Isn't that insane?
14:54
SPEAKER_00: Ready to go whenever you can access it.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was really cool.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: No, I so we've got we're we're getting jazzed up now.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: I know, it's really exciting.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: And I think, okay, hold on.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: Behave let's talk, let's finish um behavioral manifestations and then talk about consequences.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what happens if you don't cry?
15:08
SPEAKER_01: What happens if you don't cry?
15:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: So behavioral crying obviously is one of the main behavioral manifestations, but other things you may notice behaviorally if if you need to attend to some sadness is like lack of appetite, um feeling real like sleeping more.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: Or a need to sleep.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just feeling like just just really, really fatigued could indicate.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: I think a lack of interest, like an anhedonia, which is the fancy word for like lack of interest in in people and things, and just less almost like less motivated to connect, which is yeah, and to experience joy.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: There's it's uh it's harder to experience joy, and this is obviously on a spectrum, like we all can feel that way sometimes and momentarily, and then we can it can be every day, all day, and then it's that's harder, but it's right more depressive, and you know, we get into a more depressed state.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, yeah, so just kind of stillness or withdrawal can be another indicator or or like a desire to withdraw from others, exactly, or not reach for that connection, like you were saying.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: So these are all different manifestations of sadness, and sadness is super important to be able to notice and feel and process out of you for healing and for it not to have negative consequences.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: The way I kind of I try to help people understand it.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm a big, I'm a big metaphor girl.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: You guys probably you do like the metaphors, you're good at these.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, I try.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm not not all of them, not all of it.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: I try to help people understand um what it is like to like experience the emotion of sadness in like a helpful way.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like walking through ankle or like um, you know, maybe knee-high water.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: You can do it, it just takes more intentional effort to like physically walk through that experience.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: And kind of like you mentioned quicksand earlier.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: And it you the hope is to go from that quicksand kind of sinking feeling to like the functional movement of experiencing, like proactively trying to not avoid sadness, staying in the moment, not avoiding thoughts around sadness.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, but like walking through that water can help you stay present and like you're doing something with your brain and body.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: But I feel like if you can feel like you're, you know, walking through the motion and being with it, it doesn't have to feel so omnipresent and you don't have to avoid it as much.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, but st there's you know still some avoidance around around sadness.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: So then what happens?
17:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: You want to tell you?
17:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, how yeah, tell me.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not good.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay, tell me.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: You look your eyes look scary, they get to do the eyebrow thing.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: But it can be, yeah, it can be there can be.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: My eyeball thing gets straight.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: No, so when we are struggling to feel our sadness and we're struggling to allow that emotion to occur and our brain and our body, it can lead to um disconnection, numbness.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: When we unplug from one emotion, it is really, really hard to plug into like the fun ones joy, contentment, happiness, pleasure.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: That is the lesson that Inside Out taught us, right?
18:08
SPEAKER_00: Back to Inside Out.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: They did a great job with screenwriting.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure they had a psychologist andor mental health professional on the device.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes, uh, that movie.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: But yes.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: But when you disconnect from one, it is really hard to feel others.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: And emotion is is kind of like energy.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: It has to go somewhere.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: It has to go somewhere.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: And if it does not come out through the mechanisms that the body and brain have so designed, which is literally kind of crying, crying feeling it, um, then it can come out as anger.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the physical, like the beh physical manifestation of anger, which is aggression, they are separate.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about that in a later episode.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: But um you have higher rates of of substance use, um, alcohol, um, illicit substance use.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, when you don't have access, when it's hard and feels uncomfortable or unsafe to feel sad.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: It can come out as um, gosh, it feels like it comes out in negative so many ways.
19:03
SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, I think about the you know, the sadness being stuck and that, you know, turning into a major depression.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Stuck sadness.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, the stuck sadness.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: I think for many of us, you know, trauma survivors, there's a lot of stuck sad there's a lot of stuck grief.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Just grief was blocked.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: You couldn't, as a kid, feel sad about the things happening to you.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: So that population's more at risk, you know, the substance abuse.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: You mentioned that as a population, I imagine quite a lot of them are trauma survivors.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it just blocks, it just blocks grief.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: It makes us feel numb, disconnected, like you said.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: And there's just a higher rate of some of these more, you know, these behavioral kind of manifestations.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: In extreme circumstances, extreme sharkness, especially when you can't figure out a way to feel your sadness almost safely.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: I can lead to um thoughts about um thoughts about death and dying and and just some scary things around that.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: Because I think the pattern I have seen in practice can be um struggle, tr difficulty tolerating negative emotion, being you know, sadness, anxiety, what have you, which can lead to numbness, disconnection, and then that can lead to some really challenging and scary thoughts for people.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: Because they can't access joy and pleasure.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: And they just can't grieve that sad, you know, that sad whatever they're feeling really sad about.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Sadness is just really, really, really important.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: It's important.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: And I just I want to reiterate that it is it can, you know, I I think like to an extent our listeners may be thinking, well, like, okay, I it's not hard for me to feel sad.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: You know, I can cry, like it's not- Or I get I get to think I feel sad all the time.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: Or I feel sad all the time right.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh well, I think sometimes people do equate sad with depressed.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, too.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: I think like for some, I some of my patients, and even for myself, sometimes it feels like, yeah, when we've been if we've been sad like or all it's like that's it feels like a depress it's a depressed state.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: It's not quite the same thing as sad, but it can feel sad can sometimes feel so overwhelming and terrible and like it's never gonna stop.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: That I was about to say, emotions can lie to you and they can make you think and feel, even though it's confusing to feel about your feelings.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: They can make you feel that they're gonna be you're gonna feel this way forever.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: Forever.
21:19
SPEAKER_00: Forever.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: And that is not accurate and not true.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: I think it's scary for people who, in particular, who did grow up in environments where crying and sadness wasn't okay, right, but they felt a lot of it and couldn't really express it.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: Um when they're older, they're even more likely to feel scared to be sad because it feels like I mean, no one ever really held them in their sadness necessarily.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: So it just feels really scary and alone.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Uncomfortable.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, uncomfortable.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: But I promise if you're experiencing sadness, like clean sadness, like grief about loss, yeah, it will end.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: It will end.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: Right.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely will.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: Can you help the Audience and everyone listening or watching at home understand really briefly because we're gonna this is gonna come up again.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: I feel the difference between a clean emotional experience and yeah.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: So a clean, like a clean sadness is just feeling sad about loss and disconnection, and it's legit, like it is useful, it is productive, yeah, it is healthy.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: It gets complicated, and this is why I think a lot of people feel like oh, I'm just never gonna stop feeling sad, it gets complicated when other feelings and meanings get attached to that clean emotion and then it gets blocked.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: So the shame that we were talking about earlier, if you feel silly or weak or too much dramatic, sensitive when you feel sad, you are going to block the expression of the sadness, which is what you want to feel and get out.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: That is healthy and necessary.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: So we want to feel clean.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: How dare I say the word normal?
22:57
SPEAKER_00: Normal.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: Which we don't usually use.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: Normal.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: It is functionally appropriate.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: But other feelings and and meanings that we have learned about our emotional experiences that we attach to the feelings, what block this the expression.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I mean when I say clean.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: It's good to feel clean, sadness.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: That's very helpful.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: Now that we've kind of talked about, I feel like um what sadness is, what it can look like, how it can manifest in the body, some thoughts with it.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: And some really cool research about how amazingly important that we have a medical necessity to cry as human beings that we can tell.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: Um what can people do to feel their sadness in a safe way?
23:39
SPEAKER_00: And what's like the ultimate message of sadness to you?
23:42
SPEAKER_01: And like what do we do to feel better, maybe?
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what do we do to feel better?
23:45
SPEAKER_01: What's like a good way to feel better?
23:46
SPEAKER_01: Like a healthier way to feel better, right?
23:48
SPEAKER_00: Access our sadness.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, first off, like paying attention to these different manifestations.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: So that's what you're doing.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: The body, or it maybe you you're you're thinking about a loss or you are crying.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: Just notice the ways in which sadness is showing up for you.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, we want to try to have some kind of catharsis.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: Release.
24:13
SPEAKER_01: Release that crying.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: That one's, you know, that one's important.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: That's one of the main ways.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: But it's just not always a direct path to crying if we're not really aware that we're feeling sad or if we stuffed it or suppressed it for so long.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like the most that's one thing that can get that stuck sad is is when we're not directly accessing what we're really, really sad about, it doesn't come all the way out.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: It's like there's some water left in the jar.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, so once you've recognized it, okay, it c it's help and and you've, you know, tried to sort of emote cry.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: Um I think one of the the other biggest, you know, sort of ways to feel better is to seek comfort.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: So the message of sadness after acknowledging the loss or the disconnection is to seek comfort from others or pets, maybe seek support.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Binge watch a nostalgic TV show from your childhood.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, re-watch something fun.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, just something that brings you comfort, whether that is crying, you know, because then you have the physical sort of experience of comfort and catharsis or seeking comfort from a person or some kind of even a c a cozy blanket can feel comforting.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: So comfort and connection, those things are really important when we feel sad.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and sometimes I think when I have um an uh a session with a patient that is really emotionally intense and there is a lot of expression of sadness, I will tell them, Hey, I want you to go home if you can.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I can't, but I want you to go home and pretend that you have a cold.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: And I want you to treat yourself like a cold, you know, whatever is comforting and safe and nourishing for you.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: That's a really great point.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: Chicken noodle soup, big blankets, ideally.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: Safe environment, rest.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: Rest.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: Because sadness without busyness or over last active activity.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: Yes, because sadness is saying like we need to rest and be slow down.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: Um and so that's a great point, I think.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: We do, you know, rest yeah.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: I when people are sad, it's ti it's it's draining, it's tiring.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: I want to take a nap.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: And naps are great.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's part of it.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, rest and relax, recalibrate, you know, sadness too, kind of makes us think about what is important, what matters, right?
26:32
SPEAKER_01: And so reflection, you know, sadness slows us down.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: It's meant to it kind of calls us to that reflective moment.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: It sure does.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: It makes us rest, it makes us reflect about meaning and what's important.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, all of that.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: And then depending on the level of sad, some of us need some behavioral activation.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
26:51
SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Gentle movement.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: So I wouldn't say go do a hit workout, you necessarily.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean sometimes when I'm like more, like like lower mood, the hit workouts can be be great.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: But but in general, right?
27:05
SPEAKER_01: I would say gentle, like stretching.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: A walkout stuff.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: Maybe maybe like even like yoga that feels comfortable.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like some yin yoga, some no, don't go do some hot power yoga.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: That's that's more activating.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: We're we're wanting, like, if we're experiencing just you know smooth, slow, comfortable motion.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: Yep, exactly.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: So those are the main, you know, I think those are some of like the main ways that we can feel better when we're sad.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I I want I had a little caveat about the TV watching because it can be, you know, I I do think some of us, if we are a little bit more avoidant or suppressing of emotion, can sort of do sad uh do distraction only.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: Right?
27:48
SPEAKER_01: There we're like only binge watching, you know, or only seeking comfort.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Or avoidance by sleeping.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: We're sleeping, yes.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: So we it can it can definitely teeter into avoidance in an unhelpful way.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: So we think the key is to like acknowledge the feeling and stay in your body as much as you can tolerate.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: Emote, emote, feel, cry as much as possible, seek connection.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, some distraction sometimes can be super comforting, right?
28:16
SPEAKER_01: And that's totally fine.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: It's just to the extent that anything becomes rigid.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: I'll have people, if they're struggling to learn how to cry or feel cry safely, I'll tell them, hey, crying in the shower is a great way to do it, or crying like we a lot of us have smart watches or devices.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: I said, put on the one-minute timer, focus on the emotion without avoidance or distraction, and then after that one minute, go get a glass of cold water.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: Cold water can help you regulate after an intense emotional expression.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: And this has to let my patients access emotion in a brief, safe way that doesn't feel as psychologically overwhelming.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because that can be a great entry point.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: Just starting to feel sadness.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: Digestible moments.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: That's a great point.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: We want to sit with emotion as much as we can tolerate, and then it's totally fine.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: It's a learning process for sure.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it made me think of one quick thing.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to just throw out again, um, there's there's this book, Complex PTSD from surviving to thriving.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: And he Pete Walker has a list, it's actually super helpful.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: What you said reminded me of this of how to emote, how to experience sadness and anger.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: What's the name of the book?
29:18
SPEAKER_01: It's um Complex PTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, and he's got some great tips on this, kind of very similar to what you were you were suggesting.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: So well, um, what do you take it away from today?
29:31
SPEAKER_00: What's been important for you?
29:33
SPEAKER_00: Dude, I'm still real excited about that research.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: I've told everybody.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: We are we're such rename the podcast two psychology nerds alone in a room.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, and like, I mean, maybe lots of people already knew this, but I'm just like, No, I don't think people did know it.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: I feel like we're relatively educated professionals.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I knew what I didn't.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, I knew it was like super important, but like not like scientifically, why?
29:57
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: I think no, I also want to echo your excitement about that, and then maybe it can be can be um confusing to people listening or watching at home that we're excited about sadness.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: But I think why we're excited is because I think in our conversation today, we both learned something, which we A, we love learning, and B, yeah, I think it reinforced something that we already knew was important and meaningful for our patients, right, and gave it more valence or um power as to why people need to do it.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: Right, because it experiencing emotion is so important.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: Um it's just so hard to do something.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: Even if it's hard.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: And I guess that's maybe that's what I'm taking away too.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Is how friggin' hard this is and how important and how unnecessary.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: And you know, we want to we want you to go out there and feel all your feelings and go cry today.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: Go cry today and then you're gonna be able to put on a sad movie and just cry.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: If you need to, if you don't need to, that's okay too.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, go out there and feel your feelings and leave us a comment, drop us some feedback.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: We'd love to know how you experience sadness.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, how do you experience sadness?
31:12
SPEAKER_00: This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental health treatment.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can relate to our quest and how we're psyched for sanity.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: The content we share is um our personal opinions and insights.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we worked in or have worked for in the past.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: But if listening to this podcast has made you think, we'd really encourage you to seek out a mental health professional in your area.