Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #612 Smells Like Teen Spirit - Angst, Sadness or Depression?

Transcript

#612 Smells Like Teen Spirit - Angst, Sadness or Depression? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now we see that our kids are depressed, we don't
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  Speaker 2: need to fix it. We don't need to make them
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  Speaker 2: all better. We don't need to try to drag them
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  Speaker 2: out of that depression. But what we do need to
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  Speaker 2: do is understand why they're thinking.
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  Speaker 1: Sticks And now here's the stars of our show, my
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  Speaker 1: mum and Dad.
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  Speaker 2: It's Mental Health Awareness Month today. This is Justin and Kylie.
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  Speaker 2: We are the parents of six kids. I'm the founder
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  Speaker 2: of Happy Families dot com, dot a you, and this
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  Speaker 2: is the Happy Families Podcast. All this month, we're going
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  Speaker 2: to be talking about issues related to mental health, mental
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  Speaker 2: health our children, mental health of us as adults, and
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  Speaker 2: all things related to inside and outside of mental health
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  Speaker 2: and how it relates to our well being. Today a
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  Speaker 2: conversation about depression. We're going to speak specifically about kids
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  Speaker 2: and depression, although I think that you'll find that there's
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  Speaker 2: a whole lot of overlap between the things we're talking
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  Speaker 2: about with our children and even the experience of depression
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  Speaker 2: that we have as adults. But because it's Mental Health
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  Speaker 2: Awareness Month, and because depression is such a common and
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  Speaker 2: prevalent mood disorder. It needs to be talked about well.
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  Speaker 3: Since mental health is something that every single one of
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  Speaker 3: us will have either experienced personally or with people that
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  Speaker 3: we love, I think it's a really good opportunity for
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  Speaker 3: us to actually take a look at what depression looks like,
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  Speaker 3: especially in our kids, because it looks different for different people, right.
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  Speaker 2: It does. And quite often I'll hear people say, oh,
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  Speaker 2: my child's depressed or I'm depressed, and they're not actually depressed,
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  Speaker 2: that they're sad. There's a big difference between being sad
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  Speaker 2: and having depression. I mean, you can actually be depressed
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  Speaker 2: and not have depression. Depression as a mental illness is specific,
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  Speaker 2: it's diagnosable, and it's different to having a bad day
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  Speaker 2: or feeling miserable, being exhausted and stressed and tired.
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  Speaker 3: Well, and then you hear the stories of people. You
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  Speaker 3: look at someone like Robin Williams, the comedian the laughter
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  Speaker 3: that the room, and yet was deeply, deeply depressed. And
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  Speaker 3: so it's gonna look different for different people. So what
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  Speaker 3: is the difference between having say a depressive episode or
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  Speaker 3: having a bad, lousy day or week and full blown
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  Speaker 3: depression how do we know compartmentalize it.
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  Speaker 2: So there are three different things here. The first thing
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  Speaker 2: that I would say is kids, grown ups, all of us.
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  Speaker 2: We all have days where we're cranky, or we're tired,
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  Speaker 2: or we think negatively. I mean, I had a day
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  Speaker 2: the other day where I walked into the room and
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  Speaker 2: I said, I'm sick of it, I'm getting it all wrong.
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  Speaker 2: Then I'm tired of being a parent, I'm really bad
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  Speaker 2: as a husband, and I'm just I'm over it all.
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  Speaker 2: And I walked out of the room. And that doesn't
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  Speaker 2: mean that I've got depression, but right there and then
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  Speaker 2: I was angry, and I was frustrated, and I was tired,
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  Speaker 2: and I was stressed, and I was really really sad.
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  Speaker 2: You could even say that I was depressed. My mood
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  Speaker 2: was depressed. I was feeling horrible.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And then what happens when that goes on for
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  Speaker 3: a week.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So the difference between having a bad day and
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  Speaker 2: feeling sad or blue or low or frustrated and having
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  Speaker 2: a depressive episode is where we have a sustained period
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  Speaker 2: where thinking is stinking. So we have that catastrophic kind
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  Speaker 2: of thinking, that awful thinking all the time about ourselves.
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  Speaker 3: Always happens to me, nobody loves me?
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  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, the all or nothing kind of thinking, the pervasive,
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  Speaker 2: permanent personal kind of thinking. That's that's a sign that
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  Speaker 2: we might be slipping into what you could call a
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  Speaker 2: depressive episode, So not just feeling lousy, but actually having
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  Speaker 2: this sustained period where that's going on and behavior sinks
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  Speaker 2: with it or becomes more erratic or becomes more volatile,
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  Speaker 2: and mood is low. Once we experience a depressive episode,
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  Speaker 2: we definitely know the difference between that short term, I'm
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  Speaker 2: having a lousy day or a lousy night or a
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  Speaker 2: lousie whatever, and I'm actually feeling depressed. But even if
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  Speaker 2: you're having a depressive episode for a few days, maybe
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  Speaker 2: even a week, could even be two weeks, where you're
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  Speaker 2: just in a slump and it's sustained, that doesn't mean
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  Speaker 2: you've got depression. So there's a depressed day, there's a
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  Speaker 2: depressive episode, and then you've got a diagnosis of clinical depression.
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  Speaker 2: And the difference ultimately, if your child is depressed, or
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  Speaker 2: even if you are depressed, you're more often than not,
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  Speaker 2: over a sustained period of time, having negative feelings about
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  Speaker 2: yourself or your situation or the future, and it's really
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  Speaker 2: about that sustained period of time. For adults, most psychologists
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  Speaker 2: won't diagnose depression unless it's been going on for a
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  Speaker 2: minimum of six months. Now. I know some sychs will say, oh,
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  Speaker 2: with kids, it's a shorter period, But we really I
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  Speaker 2: want to I was going to say, we really want
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  Speaker 2: to see this happening long term, but we don't want
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  Speaker 2: to see it happening at all. But if we're going
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  Speaker 2: to give a clinical diagnosis of depression, then we want
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  Speaker 2: to make sure that this is an ongoing and sustained thing.
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  Speaker 2: The most important thing for us as parents is to
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  Speaker 2: get in early. Like, if we see that our kids
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  Speaker 2: are depressed, we don't need to fix it. We don't
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  Speaker 2: need to make them all better. We don't need to
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  Speaker 2: try to drag them out of that depression. But we
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  Speaker 2: we do need to is understand why they're thinking stinks,
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  Speaker 2: or why their mood is so lower, why their behavior
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  Speaker 2: is subdued or erratic or volatile. And if we can
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  Speaker 2: understand what's going on in the environment, then we can
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  Speaker 2: start to move away from fears of a clinical depression diagnosis,
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  Speaker 2: because that starts to get really serious. Those ingrained patterns
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  Speaker 2: of thinking and behaving. They can become much more entrenched
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  Speaker 2: over time. We want to get in nice and early,
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  Speaker 2: and psychological help is available to really make a big
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  Speaker 2: difference there.
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  Speaker 3: So what are the signs that we're looking for in
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  Speaker 3: our children if we are concerned about depression playing a
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  Speaker 3: part in there?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'd say there's a handful of things. First off,
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  Speaker 2: they're going to seem sad and unhappy most of the time,
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  Speaker 2: and that's different to being sad or unhappy today. But
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  Speaker 2: if it's today and tomorrow, on the day after and
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  Speaker 2: the day after and next week and even next month,
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  Speaker 2: and there's this sustained period of sadness, unhappiness, misery, would
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  Speaker 2: you put apathy in Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. So
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  Speaker 2: we could call that apathy or a motivation. So the
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  Speaker 2: pat h the pathy side of things. We use that
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  Speaker 2: mpath idea or pathological the patch that revolves around what's
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  Speaker 2: going on insider. So if we have apathy, the a
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  Speaker 2: means that it's missing, it's not there at all, so
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  Speaker 2: there's nothing emotional, there's nothing happening at all inside. So
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  Speaker 2: apathy is also a really big warning sign that, especially
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  Speaker 2: sustained apathy over time that we've got a childhood may
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  Speaker 2: be depressed if they're aggressive, having a lot of temper tantrums,
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  Speaker 2: big outbursts, volatile with their moods, and then subdued and
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  Speaker 2: don't want to leave their room, if they're afraid or
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  Speaker 2: worried all the time, if they're having those psychosomatic symptoms
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  Speaker 2: like my tummy hurts or my legs hurt or my
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  Speaker 2: arm's hurt. If they're always saying things that are negative
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  Speaker 2: about themselves. I'm no good, everybody hates me. I can't
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  Speaker 2: do it. It's too hard. So you're seeing that subdued energy.
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  Speaker 2: They don't want to be around anyone. Like I said,
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  Speaker 2: they were drawing to their room. They're not finding joy
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  Speaker 2: in things that they used to find joy in, whether
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  Speaker 2: it's eating or activities. Often you find somebody who's depressed
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  Speaker 2: will have sleep issues. Usually with kids, they'll sleep too much,
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  Speaker 2: but sometimes they can't sleep at all, or they have nightmares.
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  Speaker 2: It's those kinds of things, and then you'll see school
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  Speaker 2: performance drop as well, because when you're feeling lousy socially,
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  Speaker 2: and you're feeling lousy emotionally, and you're feeling lousy in
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  Speaker 2: all of the ways, then why would you bother trying
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  Speaker 2: it all? So they're your biggest warning signals.
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  Speaker 3: So, as a parent, if I am watching over a
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  Speaker 3: sustained period of time these kinds of symptoms showing up
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  Speaker 3: in my child, can I do anything like can I
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  Speaker 3: help them get through this? Or is this something that
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  Speaker 3: they're going to have to ride through and need a
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  Speaker 3: psychologist to kind of work them through.
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  Speaker 2: It's a really tricky one because we do know that
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  Speaker 2: there are things that work to reduce the symptoms of depression.
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  Speaker 2: The best thing psychologically is to get cognitive behavioral therapy.
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  Speaker 2: What's really going on with depression is we are experiencing
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  Speaker 2: what you might call cognitive distortions. There's a whole list
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  Speaker 2: of cognitive distortions that are going on where there's this awfulizing, atastrophizing.
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  Speaker 2: There's the all or nothing thinking. There's predicting the future,
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  Speaker 2: fortune telling, but it's always with a negative slant. There's
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  Speaker 2: the mind reading where we think we know what everyone's
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  Speaker 2: thinking about us and saying about us, even though we've
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  Speaker 2: got no idea what's going on in their minds. There's
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  Speaker 2: all those they're cognitive distortions and cognitive behavioral therapy with
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  Speaker 2: a clinical psychologist or in fact even any registered psychologists
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  Speaker 2: and even many counselors can work really well with somebody
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  Speaker 2: on those CBT practices to shift the cognitive distortions. But
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  Speaker 2: you don't have to have a psych degree or a
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  Speaker 2: council and degree. You don't even have to be a medico.
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  Speaker 2: You can just be a parent who cares about your
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  Speaker 2: kids and do a range of things that can help
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  Speaker 2: your kids to get through these subdued moods and these
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  Speaker 2: depressive episodes in really effective, really caring ways, probably worth
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  Speaker 2: spending a few minutes on those. I've just made a
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  Speaker 2: list while we've been talking. I've got eight, eight really
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  Speaker 2: quick things that i can talk about that can be
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  Speaker 2: really helpful.
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  Speaker 3: Well, what summer one?
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  Speaker 2: You know what, I just thought of a night thing,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm going to make that number one because I
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  Speaker 2: can't help myself. I'm so sorry. But here's what I
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  Speaker 2: want to emphasize. I use this metaphor a lot in
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  Speaker 2: my presentations. I might have even shared it on the
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  Speaker 2: podcast before, and that is that an emotion or a
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  Speaker 2: mood is like a train going through a tunnel. So
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  Speaker 2: when the train goes into the tunnel, especially if we're
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  Speaker 2: talking about a dark kind of mood, like depression, everything
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  Speaker 2: goes dark, everything goes black, and you end up deep
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  Speaker 2: inside the tunnel. And what we do as parents is
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  Speaker 2: we say, oh no, the train's in a tunnel. That is,
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  Speaker 2: we're going through this big emotional moment, and my job
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  Speaker 2: is to rescue my child. I need to pull out
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  Speaker 2: the earth moving equipment. I need to dig down through
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  Speaker 2: the top of the mountain and make a great big
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  Speaker 2: hole and pull the train out and bring it back
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  Speaker 2: into the daylight. That's kind of what we try to
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  Speaker 2: do with our kids when they're having those big, deep,
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  Speaker 2: dark emotions. And yet, if we simply sit with our
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  Speaker 2: child and say you're like a train in a tunnel,
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  Speaker 2: but trains always come out of the tunnel eventually, what
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  Speaker 2: that does actually takes the pressure off our child. It
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  Speaker 2: means that they don't have the feeling that, oh no,
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  Speaker 2: there's something wrong with me. It normalizes the emotion.
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  Speaker 3: You're kind of suggesting. It's an acceptance right where you
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  Speaker 3: are right now is where you are, and it's okay.
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  Speaker 2: Fighting against it only deepens and further entrenches it. Now,
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  Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that we just want to accept that
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  Speaker 2: we've got a child who's depressed, and we're just going
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  Speaker 2: to let them stay in the tunnel for the next
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  Speaker 2: six months while they work through the depression. There are
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  Speaker 2: things that we can do, but it's the acceptance that
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  Speaker 2: allows us to move into the next eight ideas that
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  Speaker 2: I've got that help us to move our children forward.
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  Speaker 3: As I've experienced personally some depressive episodes over the years,
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  Speaker 3: it's only been recently that I've recognized just how important
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  Speaker 3: just being kind to myself and accepting that I'm just
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  Speaker 3: feeling this way now, but it's not the way it's
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  Speaker 3: going to be forever. Yeah, has made such a difference
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  Speaker 3: in me being able to move through it a lot
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  Speaker 3: quicker than it was back in the day, where I
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  Speaker 3: was just berating myself all the time because it couldn't
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  Speaker 3: work out why I felt the way I did when
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  Speaker 3: I had such a blessed life, I had so much
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  Speaker 3: to be grateful for, and yet I just felt like
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  Speaker 3: everything was too hard.
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  Speaker 2: A little bit of self compassion. So the first thing
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  Speaker 2: is just just be accepting, because that means that you'll
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  Speaker 2: be able to move on with some more proactive strategies.
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  Speaker 2: Doesn't mean acceptance is well I'll shrug my shoulders and say, oh,
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  Speaker 2: if you depressed, you to press that, I'm just going
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  Speaker 2: to leave you be in your bedroom. That's not what
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  Speaker 2: it is. It's about sitting with the child and saying
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  Speaker 2: it's dark here, isn't it, And it's okay. We all
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  Speaker 2: have these times. It's not an unusual part of being
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  Speaker 2: human to feel like this, And I'm here for you.
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  Speaker 2: So you're talking to You've talked about self compassion for
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  Speaker 2: you as an adult, but for a child, we're showing compassion.
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  Speaker 2: We're sitting there in their suffering, and we're suffering with
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  Speaker 2: them because then we can say it. So, now that
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  Speaker 2: we know that this is normal, there's a handful of
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  Speaker 2: things that we could talk about. Help. Let's talk about
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  Speaker 2: those things. Are you open to that? And what you
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  Speaker 2: find is because of the acceptance and the compassion, your
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  Speaker 2: child's more likely to say, yeah, yeah, actually I am
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  Speaker 2: open to it because you're not making me feel bad
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  Speaker 2: for feeling bad.
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  Speaker 3: So what's number two?
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  Speaker 2: Number two? Which was number one? It's just breathe, literally,
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: just breathe, and if you can breathe outside so nature.
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  Speaker 2: I say this all the time. It's my favorite thing
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  Speaker 2: to say about being outside nature is fuel for the soul.
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  Speaker 2: And when you're feeling lousy, seeing a sunset or sunrise,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: or sitting in a park and looking at the trees
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: or the clouds, or sitting on the beach and watching
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: the waves rolling in, or actually getting active in nature.
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  Speaker 2: There's just something incredible about breathing and being in nature.
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  Speaker 2: And if you can't be in nature, at least breathe.
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  Speaker 2: But if you can't breathe in nature, that's better. Even
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: if you're laying in the backyard on the grass or
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: on the trampoline or something like that, there's something that
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  Speaker 2: can shift a mood just by getting out, breathing under control,
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  Speaker 2: being intentional without breathing.
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  Speaker 3: Recently, a friend gave me a handful of affirmation cards.
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  Speaker 3: They're absolutely beautiful, and one of the techniques that the
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  Speaker 3: affirmation talks about is when I breathe in, to breathe
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  Speaker 3: in that golden warmth of sunlight and to breathe out
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  Speaker 3: the folk.
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  Speaker 2: That sounds like an affirmation card, doesn't it.
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  Speaker 3: But it's just just having that visual does it sounds beautiful?
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  Speaker 3: I'm because I love sitting in the sun. There's something
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  Speaker 3: about it, even when your eyes are closed you can
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  Speaker 3: just feel the warmth wash over you. And yet when
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  Speaker 3: you're in that dark cloud space, it's hard.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. Now our podcast time is pretty
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  Speaker 2: much up, so and the next one quickly move Move Move.
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  Speaker 2: Research abundantly, overwhelmingly, phenomenally, categorically, in every way tells us
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  Speaker 2: that if we move our bodies, we experience a well
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  Speaker 2: being impact, a positive well being impact. Run, swim, climb, ride, wrestle, whatever.
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  Speaker 2: Just if you can help your kids to move, they
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: will feel better. The next one connect. This is really
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  Speaker 2: hard when you depress because usually a conversation stinks and
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  Speaker 2: no one wants to talk to you because you're depressed
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: and you're miserable. But if we can help somebody who's
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  Speaker 2: feeling low to connect in positive and meaningful ways with
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  Speaker 2: someone who cares, again, it's one of the biggest predictors
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: of well being is having high quality relationships where connection counts.
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  Speaker 3: So when I'm having a struggle and my conversation stinks,
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  Speaker 3: one of the most beautiful tools that you have used
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: in our relationship is to just hold me. The best
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: connection that I can have when I'm in that space
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: where I can't see any good is just having somebody
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  Speaker 3: I love just hold me and say it's okay, I'm here.
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  Speaker 3: And I think our kids would respond really well to
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: just knowing that we love them.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And we can even say things like I really
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: want to be with you right now because I can
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: see that you're feeling awful. Can we just hug and
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  Speaker 2: I'm not here to fix it? Yeah? And if they
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: say no, and respect that as well, you might say,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: or would you rather have some space? Can we hug?
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Or do you need some space? And if they say
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I need some space, you say, all, well, I'm going
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: to come back in I don't know, five minutes or
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: ten minutes or twenty minutes, and I'm going to check
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  Speaker 2: on you and do that based on how old they
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: are and how they're really feeling. But just check in
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: and invite those connections. Let me share a couple of
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  Speaker 2: other ones. Real quick learn, learn, be curious, explore the world.
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  Speaker 2: Lean In Todd Cashton from George Mason University, one of
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  Speaker 2: my favorite researchers, talks incessantly about the power of curiosity
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: for overcoming things like depression and anxiety. The research is there.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: It shows that being actively involved in a learning process
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: helps us to overcome these mood disorders and mental health challenges.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: The next one serve help do something for someone else.
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  Speaker 2: When we get out of our own way, when we
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: get out of our own head and we go and
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: do something that makes a difference for someone else, it's powerful. Now,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: if you've got young kids, maybe you can go and
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: volunteer at a nearby I don't know, a church, soup
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: kitchen or something like that, homeless, but it doesn't have
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: to be that big. You might just make some cookies
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  Speaker 2: and go and deliver them to the old lady that
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: lives four houses down the street. Or you might find
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: a way that you can make some cupcakes and go
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: and visit the fieries or the ambos and say, hey,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: we just really appreciate what you do in our community,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: and we wanted to come and give you something as
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: a token as a recognition of how much we appreciate
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: the service that you give our community. Or maybe you
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: go down to the local surf club and volunteer down there. Like,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: there's so many different things that you can do if
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: you can just sort of think outside of four walls
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: of your home.
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: A couple of weeks ago, our eighteen year old went
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: out with a friend and she came home she said,
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: can I tell you what I just did? And she
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: and her friend had written a whole heap of little
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: handwritten notes with.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Just beautiful thoughts.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: I hope you have a great day today, You're awesome,
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: you know, sunshining whatever she wrote, and they went and
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: stuck it on people's windscreen underneath their wipers as they
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: walked down at the car park at the beach the
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: other day. And I just thought, it's such an easy thing.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: You don't actually know how it's going to impact somebody's day.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: But it left her with a huge smile on a
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: face and a bounce in a step, sharing.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: A little light. My last couple of ideas are pretty simple.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Make a plan. Make a plan. Just say, all right,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: you're feeling lousy, but let's make a plan. Who do
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: we need to talk to? What can we do? How
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: can we move in a positive direction even on days
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: when we're feeling lousy. And it's not about fixing, it's
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: about recognizing that if we feel lousy, we know these
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: things can help, and we want to help. And I
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: think the last point that I would make is get help,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: get help, go and see a GP see a psychologist,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: seek a counselor talk with the school, the school counselor
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: the pastoral care, the well being officer, whoever it is,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: and there are solutions. There are well being solutions that
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: are available for kids who are struggling with depression and
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: other mental health challenges, and these kinds of ideas are
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: empirically shown to move the needle and just help to
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: alleviate that burden of depression.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to add a tenth one because as
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: you were talking, it just was really apparent to me
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: as a parent to take care of our own mental health.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: It's so easy when we are with somebody who is
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: struggling to slowly catchure their emotion, and if we're not
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: doing the things that we know are important for our
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: own wellbeing, it can be very easy for us to
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: spiral alongside them. It's so hard being a parent watching
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: our kids struggle, and it's very easy for us to
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: kind of fall down. So number ten for me would
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: be make sure that you're doing what you need to
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: take care of your mental health and recognize that when
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: you seek help, that help is going to be for
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: you too, because you're carrying the weight of watching your
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: child struggler not being able to fix it.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Tomorrow, I'm a Happy Famili's podcast, Digital self Harm, the
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: rising trend of teams cybbling themselves, and on Wednesday we're
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: going to be talking about men's post natal depression. It's
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Mental Health Awareness Month and so our podcasts are primarily
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: centered on these kinds of wadeas oh a quick reminder
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: as well. On Wednesday night, we've got our free webinar.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Free webinar and what to do when you're feeling burned
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: out please join us. All the details are at happy
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: families dot com dot a. You. The podcast as always
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: our executive producer, and if you'd like more andfo about
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: the things we've talked about today, please check out the
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: show notes at happyfamilies dot com dot au