Latest / ShameOver - The Drink Less Podcast / Why does drinking less feel SO hard… even when you genuinely want to change?
Transcript
- Erica And ShameOver: All right, friends, we are going to pause right there because this conversation with Mary Lee only gets deeper and deeper. Today we talked about something so important, the fact that drinking less is not about being good or having more willpower. It's about understanding what's actually happening underneath the habit and the urges and the rebellion, the stress, the stories, the parts of you that are trying to protect you, even when they're using alcohol to do it. And honestly, Erica+ShameOver: Hello and welcome back to the Shame Over Podcast. I am so excited today about conversation with a new person in my life, very excited to get to know Merrilee Burke, and we will just let you take it over from there. So welcome, thanks for being here. Merrilee Burke, LMFT: Thank you so much for having me. Erica+ShameOver: tell us about who you are, what you do. Merrilee Burke, LMFT: So my name is Mary Lee Burke. I'm a licensed psychotherapist. And one of the main parts of my practice is helping people change their relationship with alcohol and teaching them specifically how to drink in moderation. Erica And ShameOver: that awareness alone can completely change the game. Next week in part two, we're diving into something I think so many women struggle with, but rarely talk about openly. It is how alcohol became tied to fun, identity, creativity, connection, and even play. We get into why so many of us feel like we forgot how to have fun without alcohol and how to start reconnecting with ourselves again without making life boring in the process. So if this episode hit home for you, Erica+ShameOver: I love that because I feel like I'm so alone in this world that it is so or bust. ⁓ I from my own experience, if that was my only mindset, like moderation is not possible. ⁓ I have kept drinking extremely a lot longer ⁓ without to do something. So ⁓ I your approach. I love that you believe in that. And I mean, just myself, I found that the more I... Erica And ShameOver: Please make sure that you are subscribed so part two lands right into your ears next week. And as always remember, you're not broken. You do not need more shame. What you actually need is support, awareness, and tools that work for real life. I am so glad you're here and I will see you in the next episode. Erica+ShameOver: get into this the less and less I want to drink so the closer I am to being sober if you will but I still will never put that label on myself for so many reasons but is that something that you found in your practice as well? Merrilee Burke, LMFT: Right, definitely. And I think there is something about the idea of I'm never going to drink again or I can't ever drink again that is really limiting and very intimidating for people. And so even if someone has stopped drinking, and some of my clients do, I always kind of encourage them to know that that's what they're doing now. And it doesn't necessarily have to be forever because I think the forever aspect of it really gets in the way of people making the right choice for themselves. Erica+ShameOver: Yes. No, I love that. I had a guy referred to at one time as being a retired drinker. He's like, you know, because you can always come out of retirement at any time you want, but the longer you're in retirement, the less likely you are to go back. So I was just like, that is a fascinating way to look at it. I like that. Awesome. So what? Merrilee Burke, LMFT: Great, I love that. Erica+ShameOver: What kind of do you focus on, early on? people coming to you when they're crazy heavy drinkers? Is it more they're just, you know, kind of that gray area, not really sure what to do, that type thing. Okay. Merrilee Burke, LMFT: It's a mix because it's really they're not happy with their drinking, whatever that looks like. So for some people, it's a lot more limiting for them. They're really having a lot more problems in life. Some people, they're kind of externally not really having a lot of problems, but they're just not really happy with it. So it really runs the gamut. Erica+ShameOver: Yes. Yes, totally. had someone who I spoke with recently that he's worked with a couple other people and basically plain and simple said like, you don't have a problem. Like, I don't know why you're here, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, at end of the day, their opinion doesn't matter. Like you are reaching out because clearly you're not happy with it and that's all that matters. So ⁓ definitely feel that approach. ⁓ Merrilee Burke, LMFT: Right, and there's always something. If someone's not really comfortable with the way they're drinking, and this has happened before where they come to me initially about that, and the more we explore it, they realize that's not really the main problem for them, but there is still something that's going on that they need to work with. And maybe that thing is influencing their drinking, but the drinking's not really the issue, but there still is an issue. So there's always something to talk about. Erica+ShameOver: Yes. Absolutely. That's why I like to say drinking isn't the problem, it's the solution. So you just have to understand what is it the solution for and then work back from there. Merrilee Burke, LMFT: Exactly. Erica+ShameOver: So talk to me a little bit about some of the mindful drinking tools. Cause obviously to me, moderation means drinking mindfully. Cause if you're drinking mindfully, you will pretty much always be drinking moderately because you know how, how it's feeling, where you're feeling it. And that teaches you your limits. Merrilee Burke, LMFT: Right, yeah, exactly. And for people, don't know, I'm sure that your listeners are kind of familiar with mindfulness, but in case there's anyone who's not, being mindful is just being aware of what your mind is doing in a given moment. And it's really helpful when it comes to drinking because it can give you an awareness and a separation that you need to be able to make choices. So for instance, instead of thinking, want a drink or I need a drink, if you think, I'm having the urge to have a drink or I'm having a feeling that's making me want to drink. Even that small way of reframing it, of giving yourself a little bit of distance from the impulse to you. So instead of feeling like this is just what you're experiencing and you have no control over it, as opposed to it's something that's coming up inside of you, but there's more to you than just this urge that you're having in the moment. Erica+ShameOver: Yes, matter so much. I have two young kids, so I'm constantly telling them like words have power, ⁓ it's the same thing. Like we never grow out of that. And I think that's such an important thing to remember because I mean, everyone that I work with, it is constantly like, I have the urge, I have the urge, but it's just that reframe. Yes, you're having those feelings, but you are not the urge. And that's so empowering too. Merrilee Burke, LMFT: Exactly. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, you there are a couple tools that can be helpful in terms of becoming more mindful. Now, these tools, you won't always need them. And there are a lot of tools that I talk about, like in terms of measuring, tracking drinks, all of these different things that kind of feel a little bit cumbersome in the beginning. But just know that the mindfulness will become a habit. You won't always need to go to these tools. But the tools are there to teach you how to be mindful with your drinking. Erica+ShameOver: Exactly. Cause I've always hated tracking, especially, you know, I used to track food, macros, all of that. Hated it. Never successful long-term drinking. Same thing like early on. It's not necessarily fun to track, especially when your numbers are way higher than you anticipated probably going into it, but it is so important to find that baseline. And now I don't have to track. Like you said, like it just teaches you how to get mindful. Then you're automatically doing it. You're not having to track the rest of your life. Merrilee Burke, LMFT: Exactly. And with these because one of them is kind of in depth, ⁓ one of them is journaling, which I know not, and some people love to journal, some people don't really love it. I honestly don't love it, but it's always helpful. And any client I've gotten to do it, even they wanted to or not, whether they liked it or not, it's always helpful. So it's something that just know you're not gonna have to journal forever, but for now it's really, really helpful. So journaling is useful on the days that you are planning to not drink. And let's say, know, it's a Thursday, you're planning to have a dry night. And now you're starting to doubt if you really want to do that. All the chatter's coming in, the different voices, like, yeah, but you had such a hard day. you know, what difference is one more day of drinking going to make? And, you know, you overdid it already earlier in the week. So who cares? The week's already shot. Whatever the voices are saying come in. And so I ask my clients, I say, you know, when we set goals initially, I tell them, you're probably not gonna meet these goals right away. And it's not a pass fail. It's like we're setting a goal and then if you don't meet the goal, we just wanna understand why that is, right? This is all about learning. So I'll say, if you decide to drink when you weren't going to, or if you, let's say you set a limit, I'm not gonna have more than three and you're about to have that fourth drink. I just say, just write down why. Just write down, I'm going to drink because, and whatever is going on. So it could be. I'm having fun and I don't want the fun to end. could be I had my three drinks and I'm not even feeling them and I don't want to waste a night of drinking if I didn't even get a buzz. Whatever it is, you know, I had a really hard day. Just write it down and it's especially helpful for me because then they share it with me and I can get more into their mindset of what's happening when they don't meet their drinking goals. But even if you don't have someone who's keeping you accountable or a therapist, it's helpful for you to go back and look and say, ⁓ look, every time I tried to have a dry night and I didn't, I can now go back and see what was going on with me. So that can be really useful. Erica+ShameOver: Mm. Yes. Do you find a lot of pushback there? Because I know most of the time that people are, you know, if they said three, they're their fourth. That's when they are not necessarily the self-sabotage, but the rebellion. is coming in constantly. Like so many of the people that I work with, it's constantly like, I want to, it's my decision, I'm going to do this. And it's kind of that pushback where I see that they didn't necessarily rebel when they were younger. And this is how it's coming out. you know, it's not for any reason, like it's not helping them clearly, ⁓ it's, it's that rebellion thing. So do you find pushback with people actually journaling in that moment? Like I am having this fourth drink because, or is it kind of after the fact? Merrilee Burke, LMFT: push back while they're journaling or push back against you. Erica+ShameOver: both. Merrilee Burke, LMFT: I really try to work with those parts and I'll usually try to work with those parts before I even start setting goals or giving assignments because yes, there are always usually multiple parts and that rebellion part is very common, especially for people who grew up with very authoritarian parents or in a very authoritarian family where you were told you're gonna do what you're supposed to do and how it makes you feel doesn't matter. Well, even if those people never say anything about your drinking, maybe they're not even in your life anymore, that... Part of us develop that, how I feel does matter and you're not gonna tell me what to do and I'm gonna do what I want. And sometimes that rebellious part is rebelling against another part of us that wants us to drink less or it's rebelling against whatever we think society wants us to do. So that rebel will show up even if it's not rebelling against anyone else, if nobody's really paying attention to our drinking. Erica+ShameOver: Yes, and that I find that so common. so I, right before this, we were on a, my meets every Monday for I call them firesides. And ⁓ I a speaker on there and we really dug into like families and what a huge part of that is. ⁓ And how we were raised makes such a difference. Like ⁓ it up all the time in our adult life without us even realizing it. And I mean, just like you said, the authoritarian parents or, most of us were raised very traditional, which did have a lot of that come in and that that comes out in other ways. A lot of my clients also, joke that they're recovering Catholics, ⁓ know, so that is a very big piece that, you know, same has that same piece as well. Merrilee Burke, LMFT: And that's where the mindfulness comes in too, is understanding who's here right now. What part of me is this behavior that I'm about to do. And so I always try to get familiar with the parts that might show up and then I encourage them. And I say, hey, if your rebel says, just wants to write down because I feel like it, that's fine. That's great. Like whatever is the truth in that moment, whatever is real that you're experiencing, write that down. It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't have to be. ⁓ I'm drinking right now because I'm scared. Scared of what? That doesn't even make any sense. It doesn't need to make sense. Just write it down. And then later on, the more you explore, the more it'll start to make sense. Erica+ShameOver: Well, and just that simple act of doing it in the moment takes you out of it. It makes you be present for a second and actually question, do I want this or is it just habitual? Merrilee Burke, LMFT: Exactly. Yeah, that's really an important part. Anytime you can take a pause, even if you're forcing yourself to have a glass of water, which one? It's really important to hydrate when you're drinking. But that moment of like, well, let me just go get this water, this sparkling water, whatever it is. And if I still want another drink afterward, then I can have one. And a lot of times you don't. Just giving yourself that pause makes you realize, wait a minute, I was expecting to want that other drink. But actually, now that I look a little closer, I really don't. Erica+ShameOver: Yes,