Latest / The Uplift- with Luke Pollock / #25 - James McGaughey - Building Belfast's Leading Physiotherapy Business
Transcript
- Luke Pollock: Okay James, you started trifecta a few years ago. Tell me about the origin story of trifecta physio. James: So trifactive physio, it took me ages to think of a name and I felt like I was stuck on it for such a long time. And I was always thinking like I want something that's a bit more holistic approach, kind of like is a reflection of me as a person, and definitely wanted something biopsychosocial, which is such a big throw around term these days. But I just I'm definitely someone who listens well and really takes into consideration s people's like feelings and emotions and the psychological side of things. And then I kind of eventually wanted to try and build a business that was kind of like community-based where like we had physios working together. Like my wife obviously works with me. And like I just wanted to create a really enjoyable work environment that was just like good crack. And we got results and it was just like a very collaborative eff collaborative effort from all of us. So then the trifecta was born from that like biopsychosocial. And then in my head I also had three key services I wanted to offer, which was the one-to-one in-person physio and personal training, and then online coaching or programs. And then the third thing was gonna be our education side of things, which we have more recently started doing. So and then every now and then it just like Loads of things just common threes, or always like using another wee joke, like, it's the trifecta. Luke Pollock: Yeah, I actually really like NIMM. This is a sick name. And you mentioned there about like focusing on the biopsychosocial model, which yes is a buzzword, but it gets attention. probably deserves. I think maybe sometimes it gets too much attention. Where did that sense of wanting to lean into that like psychosocial side of it more come from your side of things? Was that a bad experience you had personally or just something you saw? that was being poorly cared for in the industry. James: I just feel like whenever I was going through uni, it was all very much like a bit of biomechanics. And we talked about the biopsychosocial model, but we never talked about like the practical application of it. And especially in Northern Ireland and around Belfast, like there's a lot of like generational trauma and there's a lot of people who are like almost like stuck in a sense of anxiety. and Luke Pollock: Yeah. James: I was just trying to think like, why is it I'm getting quite a few clients who cannot shift into a state of recovery? It's almost like there's just constant one thing after another after another, like a domino effect of pain and injuries. And it was kind of a case of like there has to be something deeper to that. And obviously, like I knew about the bio so psychosocial model. So I was kind of thinking like in what ways can we use that to actually help us make better decisions? And that was probably the big part of it was just like a lot of the time when people are coming in and they're upset that they're injured, like some people just want to sit and chat and be listened to and supported and alongside being held accountable and guided through the process of exposing them to stress and building them back up to the physical demands of sport or daily activity. But so many, especially my female clients, like would very much really appreciate just sitting and listening and having a yarn. And definitely over the last few years I've feel like I've gotten much better at that in terms of just listening. And you really can build like connections with people. And yeah. Actually kind of forget when you've asked me. Luke Pollock: No, that's kind of exactly why I asked you. was just about where did that need, where did you feel the need for more of the psychosocial model to be implemented? Is there any other practical ways you implement it aside from using the skills listening? James: Yeah, I think just trying to be a genuine human, who cares, is a huge part of it. Like people need support and they need that social interaction. And like we are social animals. Like from a fundamental level, like we interact with a community. And when people don't have that, that's when you see all these older women who have no purpose and no real social connection. They all have starting getting diagnoses of fibromyalgia. I suppose that maybe did create a base 'cause I did actually do my dissertation on fibromyalgia, which is looking back, I think is actually set the tone for me now for how I approach chronic pain as well. Luke Pollock: Hmm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's massive. think, like, I really struggle with... In the NHS, I was much better at it, sitting down with someone talking, but in private, I almost say, okay, let's get on with the treatment side of things. It's really helpful what you've just said, and it's a nice reminder that the talking is the treatment side of things as well. know, understanding what someone's going through is treating them and showing that you understand what they're going through is treating them. James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Luke Pollock: And I think sometimes people in general, practitioners, physios, and other healthcare professionals can be like, okay, now that the talking side is done, let me show you my skills. James: Yeah. Yeah, we're keen to show off a little bit and stroke the ego. Look at all these things I know. Luke Pollock: Yeah, how long do you give for initial appointments? James: So I actually used to give about an hour. but then since I brought on another physio, I was like, I can do it in forty five minutes. So we brought them down to forty-five minutes, but then last week I said to Megan, I was like, I would like you to increase them back to an hour. 'Cause I like to have that extra time to actually try to get to know that person a little bit more. And again, I think whenever I was first going into Trifecta as the brand. I was trying to think like, right, well, what I want this brand to look like, what I want our business to look like. I really wanted to just zoom in on one, obviously trying to get results. And two was just show people we care, which I mentioned already, like and s like spend an extra 15 minutes or 20 minutes with someone outside of the time that they think they're getting. They're like, this guy is actually spending unnecessary amount of time and that just helps build a lot of trust. Luke Pollock: Yeah. James: trust in you as a person. sometimes those last five minutes is where they get the most value. So like why not drag it out? And like I always think of like I used to hate making people wait. But then I think of going to the dentist and nearly guarantee you're gonna be waiting at the dentist. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. All the time, and it's also the same with appointment times. When I was going out on my own, I was advised, evenings, because more people will be available. But I was thinking. If I value my service enough, if I was to go see a consultant in the city or my dentist, it would be during the day and it should be the same for us as physios. If we truly believe what we're doing is going to benefit that person and they're going to place enough value during their day to go out and reorganize their day to go and see you at 2 p.m. gives you a bit of life back as well. James: Yeah. Yeah. I think yeah. I think there is a balance that as well, 'cause obviously some people are unable to get out of work and then that's a potential client you've just lost if you're doing the the one to one sessions. so I think having variable times is useful when you're starting out your business because then you have more opportunity to have a bigger catchment of clients in the time that's available. However, I do find nowadays a lot of work bigger companies, you're very much allowed to take appointment time to go to a doctor, go to an appointment that is about your health, which is great. and when I ask someone, I'm like, they usually need a weekend or an evening, I'm like, is there any chance you just happen to be able to do a certain weekday? I take advantage of that where possible. So I can save my weekends and and evenings for people who really do need it. Luke Pollock: Yep. Yeah. Mm, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and you have your own space, not as well. James: Yep, we've had our own space for two and a half years, I think. It was de yeah, feels my mental as that that's how long it's been. before that I was just working out of a gym, Anytime Fitness in Stramillis. I just rented a room and then I got to use the gym as and when I needed. but having my own space was that was a hard two years craft like. Yeah. Just the additional bills that you don't expect. Like you've got Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what was hard about it. James: you know, your insurance, additional insurance, like fire safety, like just things break. just the initial setup costs was a lot. and like yes, I'm a limited company, and it was just me essentially earning revenue for the company. And then me and Megan are the co directors. And so it was just like I had a lot of pressure on me to pull in the pull in the cash. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. James: And yeah, it was just a lot, like it was just always like a lingering pressure that I had to just like keep going and going. But I'm making money for the business, but I'm not seeing any pennies whatsoever. Like probably paid less than minimum wage for the last three, four years. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah, I think it's, it's, there is a sweet spot, isn't it? Cause I'm, I'm based, obviously you've got your own space because you can see people at any point in the day and you don't have to book out space ever. Whereas I'm, I'm where you are rent in space in the gym, which actually has been really good for me. Cause it's easy clients through the door. And yeah, and it's just, it's cool to be part of a community as well. When I'm out by myself, obviously you've got your wife and. James: Yeah. Yeah. Luke Pollock: that you work with, but when you're completely by yourself, it's nice to have other people who work in the gym as well. But yeah, it suddenly, I can imagine it suddenly gets very real very quickly when you have your own space. James: Yeah, a lot more pressures. But like probably I was a little bit blind to for quite a while. Like I just didn't have the self awareness that I was like being burnt out. I'm not seeing the the fruits of my labor, so to speak. like last last October I was just like completely burnt out. Had no lust for life. Basically just like went off social media for like three, four months, maybe posted the odd story here and there. And Then shortly after I started going to therapy and started like chatting about it and trying to somewhat recover from that. And that was definitely a big a big step. Last year was starting that going to therapy and definitely would recommend it for anyone who works with people or with a like with people closely where you can empathize with people a lot, I guess, or take on their problems to an extent. Luke Pollock: Hmm. Yeah, because you obviously had the problems of running your own business, but then you were taking on the baggage of, I'm in pain. If someone's not getting better, that's also, I find for me, that's the most stressful thing I have to deal with at the minute is, I've pretty much told the clients I can help with their problem and their pain. And if they're not getting better, gets, yeah, the pressure rumps up quickly. James: Yeah. Luke Pollock: I feel did your business take a hit at that point when you were feeling like Brunei? James: No, I'm I can be a bit of a grafter when it comes to work. Like I can just stick my head down and do it and still get results. But I kind of find whenever I'm in that state of like low mood, like my creativity lacks and I kind of maybe get stuck down a wee hole of not really like trying to grow or develop myself. but yeah, it was interestingly all just came off the back of a motorbike crash. Luke Pollock: Okay, tell me about that. James: Got knocked off got knocked off a motorbike at a roundabout. someone just changed lanes last minute, went into I went into the back of someone because of the emergency braked. And I had a stag do that weekend and I was supposed to run the Belfast half marathon. So I went to the stag, I was bruised everywhere, and then I didn't run the half marathon. That would have been a bit much. But short sh yeah, shortly after that, that was like an instance of shit hitting the fan. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Honour. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, sensibly. Mm. James: nerve like I I am pretty regulated as a person, quite relaxed, calm. Nothing really fears me, but just that experience like set my nervous system over the edge. And I was like at times almost experiencing like panic attacks or like loads of anxiety just like walking down the street. which I've never really had in my entire life until after that. so I really had to like take a step back from social media, really like Luke Pollock: Yeah. Wow, yeah. James: stop intentionally stressing myself out via smashing myself with exercise and weights. and just like slow down for a bit. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah. And did you find that that did help regulate your nervous system when you... Because for me, sometimes I get a bit of pent up anxiety and I need to go and do stuff because I've just been sat inside. I'm not saying when you slowed down, were sat inside staring at the wall all day, but what did that look like and how did you work through that aside from the therapy you mentioned? James: I think it was a very slow process. I guess I just didn't train quite as hard or as much. And then I just booked a holiday to Thailand and went to Thailand for two weeks, and that was the that was the big difference for me. Like again it all started because Megan had a two week yoga retreat in India. And when she got back out, I think it was when she got back out, I was like, I need a two week holiday. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Okay. James: And just like go for it like so a mate of mine who's actually one of my first ever clients, he was going to Thailand and he was like, Here, just join me. So ended up going to Thailand for two weeks, stayed in his cousin's villa and we just ate food and exercised and got sun and it was just like a perfect reset. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah, and so that's all you need like two weeks. James: Yeah. I I came back with a fire in my belly to get going and since then I've just been enjoying life and th things have been progressing real real well. Luke Pollock: Yeah. and you're back on socials and stuff. James: Back on socials, since I've been back, we have had our first hire. So we've got a full time employee and she's absolutely smashing it. She is a full diary pretty much already after about I think it was seven weeks, six weeks, she was quite kind of like part-time, sixteen hours a week. After six weeks, we bumped her up to thirty hours a week. And she's pretty much got a full diary after I think eight weeks. And that was just us posting flat out in social media. massively drives. awareness and then people just start looking. Luke Pollock: And you feel like you got, it's hard to know, I find with social media, does the creativity come first or actually when you start getting the ball rolling, then does it become easier? Because you must have found it quite difficult after a period of not posting to get back into the swing of things. James: Yeah, kinda. I think it really is just reps and habits. Like like I'm recording loose content anyway, like showing like taking videos of clients and being like, Here, this is what you're doing. This is what we want to do better. and even like video exercises for clients. So it's just a case of like reusing some of that content or tryna if there's certain things I'm talking about with clients, it's like, well, what we're talking about is good information. So I'm gonna use that from the in person sessions as a d as a choice for the next piece of content. And it just kind of eventually became kind of like Luke Pollock: Yeah. James: It's like the ideas are already there. It's just about packaging them up and remembering them. So if I came up with a content idea, I'd be like, Hold on a second, because I'm gonna actually put this in my notes on my phone to remind me later of like what that I idea or what that analogy was for an explanation. so yeah. Luke Pollock: Hmm. Yeah. that's so good. I'm definitely going to stay like because I don't do that. I don't have the courage to do that. Other minute. James: Yeah. but yeah, definitely the the big thing is definitely showing on Instagram that you're actually working with people. Like if I show I'm working with this girl who does high rocks and she's got a hip issue, you can pretty much guarantee I'm gonna get a someone reaching out and being like, yeah, like I run and do high rocks and have a hip issue, like can you help me as well? Because it's just so specific and people will relate to that and then all of a sudden get spookens. Luke Pollock: Hmm. Yeah, yeah. And it's so simple, isn't it? Like, obviously I've been trying to grow out my online side of things a lot, but I was posting quite a lot of in-person content and then like the penny dropped. I must've heard it on a podcast or one of the many self-help books I've tried to digest. Like you need to post what you want, like for the clients that you want. Yeah, exactly. So. James: Mm-hmm. What you're trying to attract, yeah. Luke Pollock: just then recording my online rehab sessions and taking more screenshots of like online testimonials and stuff makes a massive difference. And yeah, sometimes it can feel a little bit like, don't know, I find it difficult to get into the swing of posting testimonials regularly and promoting yourself regularly and being like, am good. This is what we're achieving here. And yeah, cause naturally we want people to just hear through word of mouth and James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Luke Pollock: Yeah. I don't know. The imposter syndrome in us tells us, am I that good? But we are getting results who you have a, you have the right to share it and show it. So you said since, since you came back from, from Thailand, business has been better. James: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely flying. similar time I started working with Alex Morrell, and that's when I actually seen you in the Discord server. And I was like, I know of Luke. I worked with his brother in law. and yeah, just like I think having that little bit of accountability and knowing someone's kind of somewhat watching over you is like, well fuck, I need to do the work here and get stuck in. And then around that same time, like I was always just in the clinic by myself and Luke Pollock: Yeah. Mm-hmm Yeah. Yeah. James: Megan would have done like a bit of reception and admin just from home here. And she actually started coming into work three days a week. Like she needed the accountability to drag her out of a rough spot. So she just started coming into work and we were just like bouncing off each other. It was much more like fun vibe for me to be there rather than it's isolating and you're alone with clients, but you're alone like all day. so having her there was like I loved it. Like it maybe some people might think it a wee bit too much. You know, I live with my wife, I work with my wife Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, class. James: I go to the gym with my wife, it's like, do we ever separate from each other? But like we just get on so well and we enjoy spending time with each other and it works. so yeah, that kind of made her feel like she was adding value. and then we when we brought on Chloe or other physio, like it's just a fun vibe. Like we all bounce off each other, it's good fun. And yeah, it's Luke Pollock: Yeah. And it's good to not take it like, think when you're by yourself, you can take yourself too seriously as well. And what's really resonating with me from what you're saying is like fun. It's a lot more fun and business is better when it's And that's less of a joy. Like you chose to be here. You wanted to be here. This is what you would have dreamed of having maybe five years ago, you know? So let's have, let's have fun with it. James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's a chore. Yeah. Yeah. R reflecting is important to look back and think like I if I went back three years and look where I am now, I'd be like, I did it. I actually did it. I did what I wanted to do. But when you're but when you're in it, you can just get so lost in the weeds and like just get kind of like stuck in this cycle of rather than zooming out and being like, Here, what we've built so far is actually really cool and it's Luke Pollock: Yeah. James: I I just want to build this place that's fun to work and we're we're there. So yeah. The the online stuff's the is a challenge, I find. I feel like the in person stuff I've got to kneel down. Like I'm good at talking to people, I'm good at assessing in person, I'm good at delivering, I'm good at coaching. but the hard part is trying to do both. Trying to do the in person and then also trying to sell online as well. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah, you're doing the thing. Okay. James: I find it like you're almost trying to preach multiple messages. and so I think people can get a wee bit lost in your message and a wee bit. So that's probably why recently I've been trying to like trying to keep the messaging consistent across my page, the Trifactus page, with Chloe as well. and for Luke Pollock: Yeah. So do you mean selling more online packages to your in-person people or separately trying to attract online clients? Both. James: So both. But interestingly, so I have I think seven online clients. Just not a lot, but it means I can really like focus on them. I think at max I would take is ten. I wouldn't want any more than that until I the plan is in the next month is to stop working a Friday in person and that's my education and online coaching day. And until then I'm not taking on too much more. Luke Pollock: Yeah. James: But all my online clients are clients who were in person, or maybe like a c I have a couple of coaches who I just knew or knew of me, and they asked me if I would coach them online. So it's all come very like organically or via word of mouth, all my online coaching. It's just that people are a good fit. So I haven't I've had maybe no, literally every single lead is someone I've worked with in person before. Luke Pollock: Yeah, okay. James: So that's probably like the limiter is how can I make my marketing work in a way that gathers me more leads from online sources? Luke Pollock: Yeah. I think you're maybe overlooking, like I was one of your online clients as well, three years ago. And despite you treating my brother-in-law, that was me finding your page organically and for like in the look of one of your programs. And I know it was more like a group coaching program at that point. but yeah, I really enjoyed that. And that would, that sort of opened my eyes to being like, some people are doing like this, in the physio space as well, because I had always associated online coaching with SNC or personal training. And although there was an element of that from your program, it was called jacked and capable. Do you still do that? Yeah. James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, essentially that's just my it's literally my program. Like I did work with another couple of mates on it and then they kind of dropped off and I just kept it going. So it's literally just my own training that I put out there. And it's just like I kinda wanna get more jacked and I wanna be capable. get strong, try and integrate some like big ranges of motion stuff. We integrate some like plows and speed and Luke Pollock: Yeah. James: Olympoglyphs and stuff. So it's a well blended programme, I think. that's personally I find it a fun way to train. Luke Pollock: Yeah, it's tough if you're just used to standard standard training, like because there's a little bit of gymnastics stuff in there as well. There was back then anyway. Yeah. James: Yeah, yeah. I yeah, yeah, there still is. It's kind of so I've kind of built out the framework for it where your upper body day is usually like something where you're moving rib cage, spine, shoulder blade. then we'll bring in like a straight arm pull or a straight arm push variation, which is your calisthenics, like front lever, front lever, back lever, plunge or L sit or handstand type work. So we just pick a direction to straight arm push or pull. and that's kind of more usually a bit more like really slow or isometric based stuff. So spilling a lot of strength and output, but also integrating in like a lot of spine and shoulder blade or whatever. and then it's usually after that's like something heavy but fast. So like something power based. And then it's your strength, your kind of like strength focused stuff and then finish off with a pump. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah, Always finish with the pump. James: Always it's hard to beat it. Luke Pollock: Yeah, no, I did it for six weeks, I think in my off season, like three years ago. And I really, really enjoyed it because I just had so many niggly, niggly injuries, like shoulders and knees at that time. And I wasn't, I just qualified, I think. So I wanted a new way of, of training for a bit. And yeah, would highly recommend if anyone is looking for a, for like an off season program or just a different way of training. I say off season, but James: Yeah. I think it's yeah. I think it's a really good off season for strength sports, like po I think it's a great off season for powerlifters 'cause there still is some S B D, but it's like let's move your spine, let's move your shoulder blades in ways you're not used to. and it's just got that variability in it that you don't usually expose yourself to, which I think is huge for long term well like longevity within a discipline. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. I think it's something that is missed. Like we're so, me personally as well, very focused on performance and struggle to look at longevity when you're thinking about like competitive sports and stuff, because performance is always top of mind. yeah, longevity is just as important. So I do need to practice what I preached a little bit more in terms of where you see that fitting into the trifecta, like brand. you? Do you currently host like S &C sessions or anything like that? James: I would do I would have like personal training clients who are maybe like typically older men or older women who just wanna exercise but they maybe have like a big injury history or are coming back from like big surgeries or cancer and things like that. And then I have my S and C clients who play a sport, want to get better at the sport or wanna like just yeah, just be more physically capable, I suppose. Jack incapable is more just a fun thing. Luke Pollock: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. James: For me personally, it kind of feeds into Trifecta in a way because I have a few clients that I will discharge, but I'll be like, Look, you're probably a good fit for this program because you've had back pain, but it trains your spine in a really good way. But it's just a well laid out programme, trains a little bit of everything. If you do this and you wanna you happen to want to play paddle or run alongside it, you can absolutely do that. But if you're playing a full on sport and you want to do jack incapable, you're gonna have a hard time. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's tough. Yeah. Yeah. James: 'Cause it's it's tough program, like it's kinda like it's kinda like the main event if you're s doing other things secondary to it. But yeah. So I I basically do a blend of everything in Trifacta, like it's post injury, initial assessment, physio, then I have a personal training clients, then I have S and C clients. And we literally just got all the vald gear, so we just got the dynamo, so you're sitting behind me. Got the dynamo and the force plates of force decks. Luke Pollock: Yeah. you got the force takes as well. Nice. James: So yeah, so we're gonna start implementing them in the kind of assessments and part of the S and C just so we can kind of gamify some of our jumps and ISO pushes and stuff for all the young lads I work with, 'cause work with a few young footballers and they're all competitive and they're good good ballers like. So I'm gonna just get them get them seeing where they're where they're sitting. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah, it also makes sense from a business point of view, doesn't it? If you can see, people can feel strong in and of themselves, but then you can highlight some real numbers for the right type of person, like myself and maybe yourself. If your numbers focus quite type A, you'll really buy into that side of things. Yeah, you? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Have you been thinking about it from that point of view as well? The force please. James: Yeah. People love data. Yeah, for sure. Like the number side of it, people who are data driven. Also just like to give us an actual objective measure where we can see like is what we're doing working. And also like I like the idea of the valve stuff where it's like they give you normative data and they have so many data points to show you like what probably is an ideal level to be at before you go in the return to play or before you introduce sprinting and change the direction. so I think all that's pretty important. Luke Pollock: Yeah, exactly. James: And it takes a guesswork out. Like sometimes I'm doing bed tests with people and it's like I'm like, this definitely feels weaker than this side. They're like, I have no idea. It doesn't feel any different to me. But I'm like, no, it's definitely weaker. And they're kind of like, I'm not weak, but I'm like, just not as strong. whereas if I have this, I'll be like, I'll prove it to you. And then you actually have the data to back it up. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And how do you find then selling that, selling the, the, um, like the outcome to people in Belfast specifically. Um, I asked that because I'm obviously based in London. So pricing for my in-person clients is rarely an issue. Um, do you find that as an issue in Belfast? James: No, not really. I think I've earned my price. like I suppose in Belfast I probably am a little bit more expensive. But it is in a way a bit more niche. Like a lot of sp sports physios, it's like very basic exercise. They're still doing like telling you how to do the exercise, but not really like coaching you through it. And not really like you're not really getting quality videos to back it up. And something we're pretty good for is I'll tell people like if you're not sure you're doing exercise right. Send us a video of you doing it. I'm happy to give you feedback. And some some people, not very many people take us up on that, but they do, and it's like just an added layer of value to our service. so it's not I don't think it's a hard sell. I I hate the whole idea of sales within our industry. It makes me cringe, but it is necessary. but the I suppose our approach for sales is we tell people what it's gonna cost. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. James: per session. So initial assessment, then follow ups. We can guesstimate roughly how many sessions it's going to take based on our experience and based on where they want to get to. And then we just lay it on the table. It's like, look, you're a long term project here. You've had a shoulder pain guy de today. He's had pain going on eight years. He's getting pain sleeping on the shoulder at night. General movement's actually pretty good. But I was like, look, this is the same those short term fix like this might take us, like Three, six, nine months before we're making any serious headway. It's gonna take some time and commitment from you. And I would say it's probably gonna take a minimum of six sessions. So here is our six pack, this is what it costs. Here's a ten pack, that's what that costs. And it's not me trying to sell to him. It's like, here's the whole system I'm gonna take you through. This is roughly how many sessions I think it's gonna take you. And here are our payment plan options. Luke Pollock: Yeah. James: I I actually say to people, I'm like, look, I'm not gonna pressure you into buying anything you don't want to. you've already paid for their first session up front anyway. So you go and think about it. And if you want to buy it, happy days. It'll save you ten percent for six. It might save you fifteen percent for ten per session. or for the overall cost or whatever it is. And like, yeah, it's just my big thing with seals is I want it to be an ethical seal. I want someone to actually want it rather than buy it and leave and be like, Luke Pollock: Hmm. Yeah. James: Can't believe I just spent like five hundred quid. I mean, get like buyer's remorse, you know. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the physio tried to charge me 500 quid. Yeah, I completely get that. I think when you outline it like that, essentially is still is a sales tactic, but it is a more James: Yeah. Luke Pollock: ethical one and you're not putting for other listeners who might be wondering what the other side of this is. It is very emotionally driven. So how long have you had this? What else have you tried? Okay. And has that worked for you? And like almost pushy pushy and trying to lay out. James: Yeah. Pinpoint, pinpoint, pinpoint. Luke Pollock: Yeah, I'm trying to say, that must be really tough. You can't do this. You can't see your family. You can't do this. And you're trying to pull on all these emotional levers to make them make an impulse decision. But yeah, exactly right. Just being comfortable saying, listen, I'm busy as is. If you want to be part of what we're doing here, that's cool. If not, that's also good. Which is a lot easier to say when you're busy, James: Yeah, yeah, it is. Like when you're not as busy back when you're starting, like you kinda wanna make those sales. But I kinda went through such a long period where I actually forgot I even did package sales. I was just pay as you go. And then like people are coming in and was like or I was working with Alex and he was like, What about packages? I'm like, fuck I s I do I sh do sell packages. I just forgot about it. It just became like a personal training package. but yeah, we started Luke Pollock: Okay, nice. Yeah. James: Like I sold that guy a six pack today and he was all for it. He was like, This is brilliant. Save him ten percent off a total of cost and like if he needs more off the back of it, sometimes I'm just like, Look, you bought a six pack, I will honor that price. I don't care. Let's get you back in, let's finish this off and get you discharged. Luke Pollock: Yeah, I hope it does. Yeah. Yeah. nice and will you space that out over time or how will you get deliver those six sessions with with that gentleman James: Yeah. I suppose it really depends on the context of the person. So like ideally I'll see him in one to two weeks. Now my diary's so busy I can barely even fit someone in like that. But say I see him again in two weeks and he's making some progress and he's accountable to his exercises, I'll maybe leave it in three weeks with something a wee bit harder for him to work on. 'Cause it's a it's a chronic issue, like we're not gonna change overnight. He'll maybe come back with questions, we'll give him a bit of advice, we'll educate him around like how Luke Pollock: Yeah. James: this rotator cuff tendonopathy like you know you'll lie on it you're it's absorbing fluid it's thickening up it's making it becoming more sensitive and then as you move about throughout the day it desensitizes and it's just about like reassuring them like look you're getting a bit stronger your movements you're increasing the movement around your shoulder blade and your rib cage and you're distributing that load a bit better so hopefully you're irritating it less and then from three from the three weeks it might just be like right three weeks a month month and a half and it slowly gets longer and longer until they're like right, okay, now I'm peeing free throughout the day. And then eventually it's like right, I can sleep four hours without waking up because he's waking up pretty much on the hour every hour. And then it's like all these little qualities or small things are adding up. And there's a phrase I love, I pretty much say this to every client when it comes to pee in or progress, the small things don't add up, they multiply. Luke Pollock: Okay, explain that. James: So whenever his sleep starts to so whenever his sleep starts to improve, he'll probably start to improve his mood. And he might start to feel better, which then can diminish his peen, which might allow him to sleep even better. And then it's all these little things that it's the accumulation of those. It's not just like one plus one plus one plus one. It's like one times two times another two times another three. And then suddenly you've got like Luke Pollock: Yeah. Hmm. James: I don't know, whatever that is, like twenty four. Luke Pollock: Yeah, so you've got a lot and then you're looking at a different person in a few months time. Yeah. James: All being well, yeah. And at least giving them like like you know the old parable of teach a man to fish, give him the tools, like that's what we're all about. It's like long term change. Like he might have the the the framework I'll give people with chronic pain is the fit framework. So frequency, intensity, time and task, which I remember learning in PE back in the day. It was instead of task, it was tedium, right? Of how you change an exercise programme, you know, you're bored of it, swap it out. So I apply that same framework to pain. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. James: So how frequent is your pain currently? It's every day and it's a six out of ten pain intensity. And the time at last is pretty much every evening for hours at a time. And the task is sleeping. So if we could bring that intensity down, okay, we're making some improvement. If we can take the time at last and shorten that, we're seeing some improvement. Maybe then it only happens three or four nights a week rather than every night. I was just taking a step back and looking at all the variables and just like dissecting it. So you can see like, okay, in the first session, when I look at the fit framework, it was daily, six out of ten sleeping lasted four four to six hours. But now, six weeks later, you can see its frequency is three out of seven. It's a two out of ten pain when it is there. the time it lasts is now just thirty minutes. And now it's literally like sleeping on that shoulder is the only thing aggravating it. So it's just like adding more variables to the aggravating factor so you can see so they can see that they're making progress. and then Luke Pollock: Mm, yeah. Yeah, and it's really important to document that as well. Like we were saying earlier about looking back three years ago, and you've built the business you want. When you see clients in a lot of pain, who have been in pain for a lot of time, and if you said in three months time, what would be a great result for you? And they might say, if I could get any sleep at all, be great. But when that time comes, they'll say, I'm still feeling it though in this point in this period. And it's our job to remind them where they've come from. James: Yeah. Luke Pollock: and say, well, you came in and you were like this. And it's not to say, am making you better. It's to just give them a gentle nudge to say, this is going in the right direction. James: Yeah. I think when you're in pain things turn very black or white. It's like, Am I in pain or not in pain? And you forget about all these waterful colours in between. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love what you were saying about teaching Amanda Fish as well. Like that is the difference I see in the likes of yourself and the likes of what I'm doing as well is trying to equip people with the tools. And that is like that is coaching at the end of the day. That is not what not what the industry can be known for, which is handing people an exercise sheet. So this will make you better. coaching them and going as deep as that person wants to go and is happy to go. and is that something you are, I'd be really interested to know like how you're instilling that philosophy now that you've got a staff member on. James: Yeah, so I suppose like main we only have one treatment room in our space and then it's like a gym area and then a small reception area. So when we've had subcontractors before, we've never worked at the same time 'cause I was like, there's only one treatment room. But when Chloe came in, I was like, you know what, screw it. We're gonna get a portable treatment table. It's gonna sit out in the gym floor. We can maybe have one initial assessment at a time, but people will be happy enough to jump up on the table and do a quick bit of testing. Like It's not like we're taking people's clothes offloads or anything anymore. Like if we need to, we use the room. But having her working in the other side of the gym from me and seeing what she's doing, seeing how she communicates, she can see how I communicate. It's hopefully just like learning by seeing how someone else does things. And then we'll do a fair bit of C P D stuff like My diary's been so busy it's been hard to like dedicate time to it, but I would ideally we do a weekly meeting on a Friday where we can chat about patients and then I'll try to at least once every other week we sit down for thirty minutes to an hour and go through whatever Chloe feels like she needs to learn. So first week we did plymetrics, then we did some lateral hip stuff and we actually just record it. I transcribe it, put it in the Claude, get it to spit out like a HIP CPD and then we're just I'm just slowly gonna keep building and building and building that until I have like all these C P D. So if I ever get a new employee, I can just be like, here's our resources, here's stuff we've covered before. it's a pretty cool way to do things. Luke Pollock: Yeah, perfect. Yeah. Yeah, it's a girl. Yeah, I think that's what you said about chucking a plinth in the gym floor. Like that's what I do at the minute. I just rent a space in a gym. And it's quite, obviously it'd be ideal if I had a separate, beautiful clinic room and then I could take them through to the gym. But it's also quite nice because I get a lot of gym members. They're familiar with the environment. The gym's quiet when they're there and they know that they're about to do some rehab in a gym environment and it's not going to be a massage for an hour. James: Yeah. Yeah, and someone who hasn't had physio before, they don't know any better. Doesn't know it doesn't matter. Like that's not nothing new. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah. And to be honest, it's been my experience with physio as well. So I didn't question it. So when, when I was chatting to this gym about using their space, they were like, Oh, it won't work because we don't have a treatment room for you. And I was like, yeah, but if the gym's free during the day, I can just chuck a plan for that. they were like, Oh really? I was like, yeah, that's been my experience with, you know, physio and rugby environments often is very busy. Like it's busy around, it's not a calm. experience and I haven't felt worse for it. Obviously if there was pump and music and it was hectic and the patient couldn't hear me that's different but I think sometimes we try and make it like a peaceful spa and it doesn't it doesn't have to be you know. James: Yeah. Even though our place is very peaceful and relaxed, it's a yeah, it's a vibe space. And like I suppose like I think when you're at uni and you're going through assessments, like our first week of uni, it like, right, everyone take their clothes off, stand their underwear. But like I've I don't do that with people. Like I'm a I'm observing movement, yes. But I don't think I need to strip people down to their underwear to see everything. Like we can get a pretty good idea of like how does that Luke Pollock: I can imagine just from talking to you that it's peaceful, but yeah. Yeah. No. James: feel to you to do that movement. And I love that podcast you did with George and I love that five-pillar approach he talked about. And another physio I've been working with, he described my approach as very somatosensory. So when you're doing something, how does that feel in your body? And what is the sensory input your brain is getting and giving you the feeling of? And that's kind of how I coach people. It's like, well Luke Pollock: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. James: whenever I've I did another mentorship with a guy, Pat Davison, that built out our own model and our own approach to exercise. And one thing he mentioned was the thing called the ZSC, so the zone of sensory motor competency, which is two things, which one would be how does it look as a coach when you're coaching someone? Does the movement look correct? Are we lengthening the right tissues or are we in the right position? are we moving with the right kind of strategies to bias the tissues we're trying to trying to stress? Luke Pollock: Okay. Hmm. James: And we'll create a response within. the second thing is how does it feel? So I very much take a feeling approach. Like if someone's doing a hinge and feeling their back, that might not seem that might if we're not trying to stress the back as the primary thing, then we might use a different exercise to try and get them to sense and feel other tissues of the posterior chain. And then eventually when we layer back to that original exercise, hopefully they're feeling more of what we want them to feel to stress. I think I it is probably a bit more like psychosomatic side of things, in terms of like if we're training hamstrings, you you should probably feel your hamstrings. You don't want to feel your back when you're training your hamstrings, but even though it's not getting stimulated per se, but Luke Pollock: Yeah, he's like that is a core principle of training that's been completely forgotten though. And like a common question I'll ask people with Back pain is around their hamstring exercises, for example. Like, are you doing RDLs regularly? Yes. And do you feel it in your hamstrings? Not really. Or when was the last time you had hamstring doms? And they're like, I don't know, actually. I normally get them at back of my quads. And yeah, the feeling of what they are experiencing in that movement. And sometimes it can look perfect, right? Sometimes it can look really good. That's a frustrating thing. or sometimes it can look terrible and they are performing the movement quite effectively. I think of that, have you seen the Sprinter, Gout Gout? Have you seen that guy? Yeah. for anyone who doesn't know and is listening, just look him up. He's an Australian Sprinter breaking all the records and he runs on paper like he has terrible running technique and terrible form, he produces... James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's Luke Pollock: Yeah, exactly. Right. He produces a result. So we also can't get too caught up on does this look good? Is this pleasing for me as the coach? If they're still delivering the result, then they're still they're still delivering the result at end of the day. James: Yeah. Yeah. Luke Pollock: What resources aside from you've mentioned Alex Morale, his mentorship, you've mentioned another mentorship you've done, any resources you have used that have been game changing for you? James: The biggest one was Pat Davison's. so I did his mentorship twenty twenty two, I think. So it was all about creating your own model. So like what is your lens of exercise? And I tried to do this with physio, so it was kind of like what am I doing now? What is the norm? What could I do better? like what are all the tools we have available to us? Luke Pollock: Okay. Hmm. James: How do we assess different parts of the body? How do we speak to our clients? What's the way I'm going to communicate? How am I going to coach? What strategies am I going to use within a session? How am I going to warm up? What's the main body of the session? What's the advice and education I give them? So it's basically just looking at every possible input to a session and thinking, how can I do better? And that was the absolute game changer for helping me understand like. Luke Pollock: Yeah. James: How do I actually get good at this when it's so complex and we don't know all the answers? But based on what we do know and our experiences, how can we create the best possible result within the context of the people that I work with? Luke Pollock: Mm. That's class. James: So that was the that was the biggest game changer was understanding what models are, was going deep into what the actual principles are. So what are the things we know to be true and cannot be disproven? And then off the back of that, then we may discover certain methods based on models, based on principles that might for someone at this moment in time be the best thing for them to help them reach their goals. Luke Pollock: Mm. Yeah. And how encouraging if any of your clients are listening to this, that you've thought about, you've thought about the process, you've thought about how you're communicating with them. It's not just, well, this is what I think, you know, it's you're thinking about that individual and how you can really serve them. Sounds like a good mentorship. Is that something you're planning to know? Cause you're, starting a bit more of a clinical mentorship. Is that something you're hoping to push? Yeah. James: It's gonna be a part of it. my current mentorship started on Friday, so it's really more geared toward coaches and personal trainers. I suppose it again, anyone who teaches exercise or movement based stuff, they would they would I'm sure would learn something from it. But it's all based on that. I'm not sure what personal training courses are like these days, but I know that the standard of personal trainer in the industry, in my opinion, is poor. 'Cause I work with so many PTs and Not that my clients, the personal trainers that I see are poor PTs, but their knowledge and understanding of things that I think are kind of basic, like the like the nervous system stuff and like listening to your clients and knowing that if they're doing moving they're like, that doesn't feel that good and but then they just do it anyway. It's like it's like having the guts to listen to that person and maybe be like, okay, let's try something else. Luke Pollock: Yeah. Yeah. James: So it's simple things like that. Like I suppose s I haven't fully built out the syllabus because I'm kind of just doing it as I go. But the first session was just setting the foundation about principles, models, methods, a little bit about the nervous system, which my wife Megan took 'cause she did a somatic therapy course last year. So we went deep into polyvagal theory. which is basically so you might have learned like parasympathetic, sympathetic. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah, yeah. James: It takes it one step further that if you're in sympathetic dominance for a prolonged period of time and you start to run out of the resources to sustain that fight or flight mode, then once you've run out of resources, you go into dorsal vehicle, which is basically where you numb out and you may experience burnout and are in a like a low mood or depressive state. and then ideally you want to be between parasympathetic and sympathetic and not have to go into dorsal where you run out of resources. Luke Pollock: Hmm. James: So we kind of went into things like that. And next time I think we're going to go into like a needs analysis of a person. So like basically assessing someone, figuring out what their big elephants are, like what are the big elephants in the room that are stopping from them from achieving their most immediate goals. And then we'll go into some like movement models and just simple movement patterns. We'll break down movement patterns and movement between like joint direction. Luke Pollock: Hmm. James: muscle action, plane of movement between ER, IR, abduction, adduction, flexion, extension. And we'll just break those down. to hopefully make it a bit more like understandable and digestible. And hopefully then the next session we'll go into some like coaching of those movements based on those models. Yeah, I think it's it's in a way it's trying to simplify everything. Luke Pollock: Hmm. Yeah, that's quite broad then. It's quite broad. James: By gaining a deeper understanding of the models and principles behind it. I'm kind of the whole premise is that I'm hoping that all these coaches go away and they're able to critically think better. So they they leave better thinkers because then they can make better decisions based on any new information they acquire. Like if they see something new on Instagram, they're like, Yeah, that looks really cool. But they can actually like Luke Pollock: Yeah. Okay, yeah. James: from their knowledge and understanding of the principles and things that are true on their own model, is that something they could use to benefit their clients, or is it just some other wishy washy bullshit that's just fancy? Luke Pollock: Yeah, and it's just new. I think, yeah, that sounds like very well thought through because it's, and when I first graduated and was in uni, you're just so confused because there's so many surface, like you understand everything on the surface level, which makes treating. James: Yeah. Luke Pollock: individuals very confusing because you're like, well, is it this or is it this or is it this? And normally it's a mixture of a number of things. But like you said, there's normally a few big elephants that you need to address and knock those out of the park first. And then you can maybe start to address the lower or the other higher hanging fruit, not the lower hanging fruit, I should say. James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Luke Pollock: In terms of books, what have you been reading recently? I'm a bit of a reader myself, so with a lot of my guests, will try and get some good book recommendations. James: So since I burnt myself out, I have not I've read one non fiction book. I've only read fiction. So I've been reading as a way to just relax and help me get to sleep better. So I've been reading the Red is it Red Sparrow books? Red Rising. Red Rising. Been reading them flat out and don't even know the name. Red Rising, yeah, I've been reading them, they've been Luke Pollock: Okay. Nice. Yeah. Red Rising. Yeah. Yeah. James: really good. I read yeah, I read oversubscribed. I kind of read three quarters of it and I'm like, I think I've got what I needed out of it. yeah I what else? There's I was probably reading more stuff last year. Like yeah I find I find self help books hard hard to get through. I lose interest pretty quick. Luke Pollock: Dara and the boys. James: With some Luke Pollock: Yeah, and I'm like, I've probably read all the big ones now and the answers like are sounds maybe heavy, but the answers are within yourself, not in some other book, you know, it's not and that's the conclusion of I've come to after reading lots of them. And I will I will refer back to certain books for certain problems I'm trying to fix at the time. But James: Yeah. Yeah. I I Mm. I really liked what you said in other podcasts, which was like it's okay to read half a book and you've got what you need out of it and then you can just park it. That was quite affirming to me because I was like, I've done that so many times with self help books. Like I've read it, I've got what I needed out of it. Fine. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel passionate about that because you would do it with other things like you would do it with a TV show or you would do it with a podcast you weren't enjoying. But we hold books to this like higher higher thing. James: don't get Megan started on this. She called me half a job Hannah for quite a long time 'cause I would just do like half the dishes or Yeah. Half a job like half the bed would be made. Yeah. Luke Pollock: Yeah, yeah. or half the books. Yeah, right. You're half. It's been class talking to you, James. Like I said, it's a full circle moment for you because for me, sorry, because you were one of the people I sort of looked up to in industry to really get my page going. I I remember the original message I sent to you being like, I'm thinking of starting a page. So it's cool to have you on my podcast. For followers, but not for much else, maybe. James: Yeah. Now you've overtaken me. I forgot you. Luke Pollock: Not for much else. James: it's a game at the end of the day. Social media is just a game. With a little bit of a purpose behind it. Luke Pollock: It is just a game, and we cannot, yeah, we can't be too attached to it. Like I said to someone when I put up that post today, about 5K followers, he was like, congrats. And I was like, yeah, it just feels the same as yesterday though. And it does. Every time you achieve these milestones, you're like, yeah, it's just another number on the page, Yeah. James: Yeah. Yeah, where have the goalposts moved to next? Luke Pollock: I I found that found that question tricky for you actually as a closing closing part in wisdom where the goalposts for you in terms of trifecta what would you like it to be in a few years time is that something you've given thought to James: Yeah. we're probably by the end of summer we're gonna be looking for another full time physio. we've grown so quick that I reckon we'll need to either find another location to work out of, whether that just be a room and a gym, and then we have our HQ where we can do our C B D sessions and maybe like one person can go and work in another space. that's an option. If not, we need a upscale and Luke Pollock: class. James: l relocate completely depending on commercial unit availability. so that'll probably be the next step. Then we're looking to get Chloe some online clients. So we're gonna try and make her a bit of a hybrid worker and just keep building what we're doing, like work with as many people as possible, get results, try to do some good in the community where possible. And I think that's the main thing. I've been working so much the last six months that Luke Pollock: Yeah. James: My next plan is to reduce my hours and maybe get a third day out in the golf course a week. Luke Pollock: Yeah, that'd be nice. That'd be nice. And it's important to do so, you know, and it sounds like you've got the priorities aligned if, because you can always try and make more money by just working yourself into the ground. James: Yeah. Yeah. every nearly every penny we make is currently going back into the business. that's a plan, it's just keep doing that until we can we have some consistency, a bit of security net, and then we'll start paying ourselves a bit more. Then our next step really is to get our own house. We've been living in a one bedroom apartment for the last four years and we just want to all we want is a garden. Don't ask for much. Luke Pollock: Okay. Yeah. And then you will be happy. James: And then that'll be it, we'll be completed it. I'll have my sauna in the garden and life will be good. Luke Pollock: Yeah. reading your fiction books. Sounds good. Sounds good. Okay. Cheers, gems. James: Yeah. Yeah.