Latest / True Crime with Gavin Fish / Can the Judge Do Anything About The Medical Examiner's 'Independent' Report About Ellen Greenberg?

Transcript

Can the Judge Do Anything About The Medical Examiner's 'Independent' Report About Ellen Greenberg? · True Crime with Gavin Fish

• 0:27
  This video contains mature themes and discussions intended
• 0:30
  only for adult audiences. Viewer discretion is advised.
• 0:36
  Hello there, my friend. Welcome back to another true
• 0:39
  crime conversation. My name is Gavin.
• 0:41
  Thank you very much for being here on this channel.
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  We like to cut through the fluff and the sensationalism of true
• 0:46
  crime, get right into the nitty gritty of things, and today is a
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  bonus. This is a bonus episode.
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  There will be more episodes today, but this is a bonus
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  episode about a hearing that took place this very day in the
• 1:04
  case of Ellen Ray Greenberg. Now, just as a recap, Ellen
• 1:09
  Greenberg was a 27 year old Philadelphia, PA school teacher.
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  On January 26th of 2011, she was stabbed to death, not 20 times
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  like the medical examiner, Dr. Osborne said, but it has been
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  clarified that she was stabbed 23 times, including to the front
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  of her chest and torso, the back of her head and neck, a big
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  slicing wound on the top of her head.
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  Her death was ruled A homicide by Doctor Osborne.
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  And then after what her family call a clandestine meeting and
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  what I would characterize as a very public pressure campaign by
• 1:55
  the Philly PD and the District Attorney's office, the medical
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  examiner changed his mind. He changed his mind, said, no,
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  no, no, she did this to herself. What were the reasons that he
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  did that? Well, one of the main ones was
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  that according to the report, the MEO investigator, Mr.
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  Olszewski, said that she was locked in her apartment by
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  herself from the inside and that somebody saw her fiance outside
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  breakdown the door. Now, that never happened.
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  And just this past February, after years and years of
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  fighting, Doctor Osborne finally said, you know what, she did not
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  do it to herself. It needs to be classified as
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  something other than that. And that led to a settlement by
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  the Greenbergs Josh and Sandy to they settled with the city for
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  an UN disclosed monetary sum and the promise by the city of
• 3:05
  Philadelphia that they would conduct an expeditious and
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  complete review of Alan Greenberg's case and
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  independently and unbiasedly. I don't think that that is a
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  word would come to that. They would, it would they would
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  just in an unbiased manner and independently they they would
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  take a look at the case. Now they didn't do it
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  expeditiously. And Mr. Pedraza, the one of the
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  two attorneys where Joe and Will, there's Joe Pedraza on the
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  left, Will Trask on the right. They filed A petition or a
• 3:49
  motion to have the court force the settlement agreement, which
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  they did. And yesterday you and I went
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  through the the medical examiner's opinion.
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  And her opinion was, yeah, Ellen did it to herself.
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  I, I don't know how she came to that opinion, but she did.
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  In my opinion, Ellen was murdered.
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  And my number one suspect is her fiance, but I'm not saying he
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  did it. There are other possibilities as
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  well. Just he would be my #1 suspect.
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  OK, today at 1:00 PM Eastern Time, just 2 1/2 hours ago,
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  there was a follow up hearing on the motion.
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  I told you guys that I would report back on the follow up Now
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  what I did because you're not allowed to record anything in
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  Philadelphia courts, even if it's a remote hearing by zoom.
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  What I did is I just did a live a live.
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  Let me see if I can find it Just a quick little live update on on
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  XI. Don't know why.
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  Oh, I do know why my buttons are getting funny.
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  Let me there we go. My buttons are it's because I
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  didn't open the right window. So the, the actual hearing took
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  place over the course of about 5 or 6 minutes, I'd say it started
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  with all of us gathering in a Zoom breakout room and then
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  being moved into the main channel from for Judge
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  Carpenter's court. And then she, oh, well, actually
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  before we moved to the main channel, her staff came in and
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  said Judge Carpenter would like to see counsel for both sides in
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  an in camera meeting. That means off the record, it is
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  confidential, it is not part of the court proceeding.
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  They did that for 8 or 9 minutes and then we were moved over into
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  the main area where Judge Carpenter came on, said OK,
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  we're on the record and let's see.
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  She reminded attendees that there's no recording of court
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  proceedings in the Commonwealth. And then she asks Mr. Pedraza
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  where we stand. Joe says he told the court that
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  they're in the possession of the report by the medical examiner's
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  office. And while they disagree with the
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  findings of the medical examiner's office, the city of
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  Philadelphia did indeed, I guess, fulfill the terms of the
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  settlement that they made. And by the way, I in the spirit
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  of like correction, but also love, there was a comment on the
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  in the fish tank. Let me bring this up real quick.
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  This is from Pat. We love Pat.
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  She's awesome. Pat says.
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  This is what I don't understand. The agreement the Greenbergs had
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  with the city was to change the manner of death from suicide to
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  homicide or undetermined. This is what the city agreed to.
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  Why then would it matter what this Emmy says?
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  Now? That was not part of the
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  agreement and I just want to point out that Pat is wrong.
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  That is not the agreement that they made with the city.
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  The agreement with the city was not to change the cause or I'm
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  sorry, the manner of death to homicide or undetermined.
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  The agreement was that the city would conduct a independent,
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  unbiased review with the current medical examiner's staff and
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  come up with their own conclusion.
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  And if that conclusion were to fall into homicide or
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  undetermined, they would update the record.
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  So the city did not agree to change the record.
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  I was not surprised that the city did not change the record.
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  But anyway, I just want to make that clarification because
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  that's very important. And when Joe Pedraza said, yes,
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  the city has fulfilled its obligation under the settlement
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  they have, it is not what we want.
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  And he said that that what I wrote was.
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  Pedraza tells the court they're in possession of the report from
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  the medical examiner's office. He thanks Judge Carpenter for
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  her assistance in getting the report.
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  They withdraw the motion for sanctions.
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  Quote Joe, Pedraza says, bring up Joe's picture here.
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  What the future holds, we will see.
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  Then Judge Carpenter asks if the matter is closed quote, at least
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  in terms of the petition before the court.
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  Now, we don't have to be literature majors.
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  In fact, we can just go back to the 6th or 7th grade English
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  classes to understand what foreshadowing is.
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  But after Carpenter asked that, at least in terms of the
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  petition before the court, Pedraza answered in the
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  affirmative. So did counsel for the city.
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  And then Carpenter closed the record.
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  Joe thanked Judge Carpenter. Judge Carpenter left.
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  And as I wrote, it's the shortest hearing I've ever
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  attended. So this lawsuit, everybody, the
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  lawsuit that Josh and Sandy Greenberg brought against the a
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  member of the district attorney's office, members of
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  the Philly P DS office and members of the medical
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  examiner's office, many of which, by the way, are former
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  members now, they don't work there anymore.
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  Some of the police officers have retired.
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  Course. The case was dismissed in its
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  entirety against and Ontario from the district attorney's
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  office citing high, high. What is that high position
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  immunity? I can't remember what it's
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  called, high official immunity. Anyway, this lawsuit is now
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  done. It's over.
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  It is done, and there's nothing left to do.
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  We had lots of questions about that yesterday.
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  And of course, I would like to hear your comments on it.
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  So let's go to the old commentary, shall we, and see
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  what what you guys want to know. Oh, by the way, tonight at 7 PMI
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  am going to be joining Joel Waldman over at Surviving the
• 11:11
  Survivor. I know that I'm going to be
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  joined with Tom Brennan. My, my imagination tells me that
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  Tom's displeased. I'm pretty displeased myself,
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  however. However, I think that Josh and
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  Sandy have good lawyers. I think they have very good
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  lawyers and I think during the process of this lawsuit they
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  have learned new things and I think that that will lead to
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  more action coming down the road.
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  Couple things, Jen, one of our intrepid moderators.
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  Is that right, Jen? How?
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  Yeah, it's showing the wrench. I'm like, how come it's not
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  showing the wrench on the screen, but it only shows the
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  wrench on the thing. OK, Gavin, my heart hurt for you
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  watching yesterday. You can see the hurt and
• 12:10
  disappointment. Don't give up the good fight.
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  We're all in this together. Give her parents our love.
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  Yeah. Jen, I had been ruminating on
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  this since Friday. No.
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  Early Saturday? No, I think I got that at about
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  11:30 PM Friday night. So I've been ruminating on it.
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  I had talked with Sandy about it.
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  I had talked with other members of the family, other members of
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  the media. We had talked about it.
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  I am disappointed, but I'm also what you might be detecting is
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  that I'm just generally a little down right now.
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  Getting better, though. Getting better.
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  Yeah. I I this is exactly what I
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  expected. I did not expect the city of
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  Philadelphia to go. Oh, my goodness.
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  We have made a terrible error here.
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  Terrible error. I cannot believe this error that
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  we have made, the injustice that has been doled out upon the
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  Greenbergs because of our error. No, I no, I did not see that
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  coming at all. I was understanding of Josh and
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  Sandy that day, February 4th of earlier this year when they
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  decided to settle with the city because trials are scary and you
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  never know what juries are going to do.
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  You just never know. So I get it that they settled,
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  but my disappointment happened back in February because I knew
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  what was coming. I knew what was coming.
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  G girl, Gavin, are we living in a bizarro world?
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  It does feel that way sometimes, does it not?
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  It feels that way. But yeah, I I wish.
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  I wish Philadelphia would take their head out for sure.
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  Jen, can a judge order a WTF motion and demand it be
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  corrected? Your Honor, I would like to file
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  a WTTF motion stat. Oh, wait a minute, I'm crossing
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  crossing careers. No, the judge has no power
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  there. If the settlement has been If
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  both sides agree that the settlement has been fulfilled,
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  then the settlement's been fulfilled.
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  And her incentive is to is to finish this thing up, get this
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  case off of her docket and move along.
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  So she was pretty happy that it was done.
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  I think that again, the foreshadowing when she said is
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  this matter closed at least in terms of the petition before
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  this court, I think that she knows something's coming down
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  the Pike. I think maybe in that in camera
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  little hearing that there the conversation that Sandy and
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  Josh's attorneys and the city of Philadelphia's attorneys.
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  While though the city of Philadelphia says the the city
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  of Philadelphia's not being sued.
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  We just are lawyers employed by the city of Philadelphia
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  defending employees and former employees of the city of
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  Philadelphia. But anyway, I think in that
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  conversation they they, it probably became clear what the
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  next what the next step was going to be.
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  Now if you ask me, what is the next step going to be?
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  I do not know. I am not Privy to it.
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  I don't think I should be Privy to it.
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  I think Josh and Sandy have a lot of thinking, pondering to do
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  about it. And I have faith in them because
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  if I can just, I'm going to bring them up again, OK?
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  And let me just pause it right on this picture.
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  Just want to pause this right here.
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  Pause so it doesn't go to another one.
• 16:16
  OK? These two people are the
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  hardiest, grittiest, most amazing people who have been
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  able to find happiness and fulfillment all while they have
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  been fighting the fight for their daughter Ellen.
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  I have complete faith in them that they will do the thing that
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  is right for them and I am not going to question either way.
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  Whatever they decide to do, I'm not going to question it because
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  it is completely up to them. I feel because I've known them
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  now for five year 4 or five years, I feel like they're going
• 16:59
  to keep going and I and I feel like they've got a strategy to
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  keep going. I just don't think that I need
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  to be Privy to it. So I'm not going to I'm not
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  going to ask and I'm going to just keep this pot.
• 17:09
  Well, I don't know what will happen when I change it, but
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  anyway, thank you. Thank you for that comment, Jen.
• 17:18
  Let's go to the next one. What else do we have?
• 17:26
  Hello, cat ride. Oops, just refreshified.
• 17:34
  There we go. Let's see.
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  Trains, boats and planes. I'm so sorry for the
• 17:41
  misunderstanding in the fish tank.
• 17:43
  I do apologize for that. Don't like posting things that
• 17:46
  are not true, so thank you. Oh, this is Pat.
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  Pat, we love you. We love you.
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  And you know what? There's so much information out
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  about this case. And in the previous case, that's
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  what they were asking for in the Greenberg V Osborne ET all,
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  that's what they were asking for.
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  And the Greenberg V Gullino ET all, which is the case that
• 18:06
  settled. They were not they.
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  Well, no, they in that one, what they were doing is they were
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  they were alleging that there was a conspiracy to cover up the
• 18:20
  murder of their daughter. So, yeah, totally
• 18:25
  understandable. Totally, completely
• 18:27
  understandable. And, you know, we love you.
• 18:28
  Thank you, Jen. The Greenbergs hired an
• 18:33
  independent doctor to do their own autopsy, right?
• 18:36
  No, that is not right. They hired Dr. Cyril Wecht to do
• 18:43
  a review of the documents and the photographs.
• 18:46
  They hired Doctor Wayne Ross, they hired Doctor Henry Lee.
• 18:56
  And I'm missing a couple. So all of these specialists,
• 19:00
  they did not do another autopsy of Ellen.
• 19:03
  Remember that in the Jewish tradition, Ellen needed to be
• 19:08
  prepared and buried quickly, which she was.
• 19:11
  As soon as her body was turned over to the Funeral Home, she
• 19:17
  was. She was interred respectfully
• 19:20
  and lovingly, very quickly. So no, she has never been
• 19:25
  exhumed. Another, another autopsy has not
• 19:29
  been performed. There have just been many
• 19:32
  reviews of it and if you go to my website, if you're a patron,
• 19:37
  you can go back to the video yesterday if you're not, but if
• 19:40
  you're a patron, you can go to my website.
• 19:42
  You can. You can look at the 32 page
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  report from the Emmys office and it talks about the different
• 19:50
  reports from Doctor Ross, Dr. Weck, Doctor Lee and so forth.
• 19:55
  So that's what happened. It wasn't wasn't their own
• 19:57
  autopsy, kind of like the Amanda Winkowski case.
• 20:00
  They did exhume her and do a second autopsy.
• 20:01
  It was, it was amazing. G girl says Gavin, this is so
• 20:06
  not over. I think you're right.
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  I think you're right. I think that the foreshadowing
• 20:12
  that Joe gave us today is a good indication on what they are
• 20:17
  planning to do. Oliver's mommy says thank you so
• 20:20
  much for sending the link. I appreciate it.
• 20:22
  Yeah, I'm happy to do that. Last night I told people that if
• 20:25
  they wanted the link to the hearing that I would send it to
• 20:31
  them. We had 5556, something like
• 20:34
  that. People in the hearing including
• 20:40
  TMZ, Hulu, Lionsgate, ABC 2020, we had three local.
• 20:52
  These are just people that I recognize by name. 3 local
• 20:55
  reporter Stephanie Farr was there couple of other local
• 20:58
  reporters. There may have been more.
• 21:01
  Stephanie Farr, by the way, is the OG when it comes to
• 21:04
  reporting on this case. She is amazing.
• 21:07
  I'm sure that she'll have a piece in The Enquirer, maybe
• 21:09
  already. And then many of you.
• 21:14
  So, yeah, it was a, it was a short hearing, not nearly as
• 21:21
  satisfying as the last hearing with Judge Carpenter where I was
• 21:24
  like, giddy is a little schoolboy man.
• 21:26
  I was. But, you know, it was it was a
• 21:31
  good hearing. I think Joel was in there too.
• 21:33
  Speaking of Joel, thank you so much for gifting those
• 21:36
  memberships. Surviving the Survivor tonight
• 21:39
  7:00 I will be on with Joel and at least Tom Brennan should be a
• 21:45
  good should be a good episode. Jen says Philly subscribes to
• 21:54
  the Canton Mass way of living. Yeah, let's see a couple more.
• 22:03
  Brendan Kenny says any chance the attorneys knew this would
• 22:06
  occur in planned accordingly? I think there is a high
• 22:09
  likelihood of that. Honestly, I think Josh and
• 22:15
  Sandy's legal team is top notch. I think they are among the best
• 22:22
  at what they do and practicing in Philly.
• 22:26
  They understand Philly. So I'm, I'm, I think there's a
• 22:34
  high chance that they knew that this would occur because because
• 22:38
  I saw it right. The thing that was most
• 22:41
  important to Josh and Sandy that day back in February of this
• 22:45
  year, February 4th, the thing that was most important to them
• 22:50
  was the not the declaration by Doctor Marlon Osborne that
• 22:59
  saying it should not be categorized that she did this to
• 23:04
  herself. It should be something else.
• 23:06
  So they won. They got that.
• 23:09
  And then they got the bonus of of getting some money to
• 23:15
  reimburse them for the fight. I mean they they weren't after
• 23:18
  money, but but they got some amount and with just a little
• 23:24
  sliver of hope that the city would do the right thing, but
• 23:27
  with the reality knowing that they probably wouldn't.
• 23:31
  Yes. Autumn says the big thing we all
• 23:35
  learned is Philly is wack and I'll never go there.
• 23:44
  That's funny. That's funny.
• 23:46
  I love how we all use different parts of English, the English
• 23:51
  language. You guys know that.
• 23:52
  One of my favorite books is The Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson.
• 23:56
  I love that Autumn. I would never say Philly is
• 23:59
  wack. However, when we were
• 24:03
  considering moving to Pennsylvania, I talked with my
• 24:06
  aunt who lived both in Western Pennsylvania and in Philadelphia
• 24:12
  at different points of their career, and she said you should
• 24:17
  move to Western Pennsylvania. Well, what she said was out of
• 24:20
  all the places I've lived, western Pennsylvania was my
• 24:23
  favorite and I said Pennsylvania, get out.
• 24:26
  She said no, no, no, no, no, Western Pennsylvania, do not
• 24:30
  move to Philadelphia. So I share, I, I she is wise,
• 24:36
  this aunt of mine, she is wise beyond her years and her years
• 24:41
  are not far beyond mine because she was born 14 years after my
• 24:45
  dad was born. So anyway, yeah, I found the
• 24:50
  wisdom in this Ariel saying, Gavin, you're asking Gavin, have
• 24:55
  you discussed with anyone on Josh and Sandy's team what other
• 24:58
  legal actions are available to them?
• 25:01
  Yeah, but probably over a year ago there, there are plenty of
• 25:09
  legal actions available to them that are not time barred.
• 25:14
  And I mean, I think if if I were Josh and Sandy, so I'm putting
• 25:22
  myself in their shoes. I'm not saying that they're
• 25:24
  thinking this, but if I were Josh and Sandy, what I would be
• 25:28
  working towards is unlocking the statute of limitations on a
• 25:35
  wrongful death lawsuit. That's what I would be doing now
• 25:40
  had they prevailed, had this, had this case gone to trial and
• 25:45
  they had prevailed and a jury said, Yep, we believe that there
• 25:51
  was a conspiracy to cover up the murder of your daughter.
• 25:54
  That would have, it is my understanding at least I've been
• 26:00
  told by legal experts that would have likely unlocked that
• 26:06
  statute of limitations. So were I and Josh and Sandy's
• 26:11
  position right now, I would be working toward that same goal.
• 26:15
  And maybe just back on that day on February 4th, they felt like
• 26:19
  they didn't have it. They didn't have it well enough
• 26:24
  to convince a civil jury. Now, I have very little skin in
• 26:30
  the game. In fact, I have no skin in the
• 26:32
  game. I only have emotional skin in
• 26:35
  this game. I think they had it.
• 26:39
  I think that they could have convinced a jury.
• 26:41
  Remember, it's a civil case. They didn't have to get a
• 26:44
  unanimous verdict. So I think they had it and I
• 26:48
  think they had it in the bag and I think the city would have lost
• 26:52
  colossally and in an embarrassing public fashion.
• 26:59
  But again, no skin, right? No risk for me to say that.
• 27:04
  So it's very easy for me to say, let's see, Nicole, thank you to
• 27:17
  Gavin, Joel, surviving the survivor and the myriad
• 27:20
  podcasters kept who keep this case alive.
• 27:22
  Justice for Ellen. Thank you very much.
• 27:24
  I think at the top of that list, top of that list is Stephanie
• 27:29
  Farr, the Philadelphia Inquirer. She has done the best.
• 27:35
  So thank you to Stephanie for stepping up.
• 27:41
  All right, well, we knew this would be a short 1.
• 27:43
  I think think that is it until 7:00 tonight on Surviving the
• 27:49
  Survivor. I will.
• 27:53
  I don't think that I've shared it on social yet, so I will
• 27:55
  share that on social real quick before I move off to my next
• 27:59
  thing. Man, it's a busy day.
• 28:01
  I was invited on a couple of news programs but just couldn't
• 28:06
  make it just because of the day. It might happen tomorrow on one
• 28:09
  of them maybe, who knows, but busy day today.
• 28:13
  So tonight at 7:00, surviving the Survivor with Joel and Tom,
• 28:19
  maybe somebody else, I don't know, but at least Joel and Tom
• 28:22
  will be talking about the case. Tom, guys, listen, Tom is the he
• 28:30
  is the fount of information on this case.
• 28:35
  Nobody knows this case like Tom. I would say not even Joe and
• 28:41
  will know this case like Tom def not even Josh and Sandy know
• 28:45
  this case like TomTom knows this case.
• 28:48
  So I'm really thankful that I get to be sitting next to him on
• 28:52
  survivor surviving the survivor tonight with Joel.
• 28:55
  So please tune in. I will share it on my socials so
• 28:58
  that so that everybody knows I've already sent out three
• 29:03
  newsletters in the last couple of days.
• 29:05
  So I probably won't send out another newsletter.
• 29:07
  I don't want to inundate everybody.
• 29:08
  But before we go, just a real quick reminder, man, I've got to
• 29:14
  sneeze. That's not the reminder.
• 29:17
  Please hold. Doesn't a sneeze just feel so
• 29:23
  good? Just a reminder, head on over to
• 29:27
  my website for K stocks for you know, crime COD articles.
• 29:33
  Crime COD is our full on news true crime news website.
• 29:40
  You can also subscribe to the newsletter there at the bottom
• 29:44
  of Crime COD or at the bottom of every page on gavinfish.com.
• 29:48
  You can subscribe to the Crime COD newsletter.
• 29:50
  I would love it if you would. We've got like 2700 people that
• 29:53
  are subscribed now, which is pretty awesome and just I call
• 29:57
  it a Devesen Cuando newsletter. I don't always send stuff out.
• 30:02
  Sometimes it is couple weeks between times that I send things
• 30:06
  out, but I'm a noodle. Very occasionally I will send
• 30:11
  stuff out. It's easy to unsubscribe and I
• 30:14
  would love it if you would join me there.
• 30:16
  Also, at the top of every page, there's this little button that
• 30:19
  takes you over to the fish tank. It looks like this little
• 30:23
  fishies. I I might need to change that to
• 30:25
  I I need to do some redevelopment of my brand.
• 30:29
  I like the fish. I like the little fancy fish.
• 30:34
  Don't they look like what was that children's book?
• 30:36
  Where the what is it? The stingy goldfish or something
• 30:42
  like I can't remember. Anyway, that's what it looks
• 30:43
  like. So check us out there.
• 30:47
  There are 5 1/2 thousand of us there.
• 30:49
  We talk about all things true crime.
• 30:51
  You're always invited to join us there.
• 30:53
  Of course, if you go into the case page, I've got a very good
• 31:00
  case page file. There are a couple of cases that
• 31:03
  I need to add here, man. But Ellen Greenberg is included
• 31:08
  in. It's all in a chronological
• 31:10
  order and this case file is full.
• 31:13
  Every video, including today's video is already on there.
• 31:18
  Photos of Ellen, childhood photos of Ellen, crime scene
• 31:22
  photos, the autopsy model photos, case documents, court
• 31:26
  documents. It's all here and a good
• 31:29
  timeline. And of course, the document that
• 31:32
  we talked about yesterday is right here.
• 31:35
  So just look for that independent review.
• 31:38
  Thank you very much to my patrons who make it possible for
• 31:41
  me to afford to pay for a server and and have, you know, have
• 31:47
  people put put stuff up here. I work on it a lot.
• 31:51
  I have other people that work on it a lot too.
• 31:52
  So thank you, thank you, thank you for supporting me.
• 31:54
  If you would like to support me on Patreon, that goes directly
• 31:58
  to helping the development and the maintenance of my website
• 32:01
  and crime cod. So thank you, thank you, thank
• 32:05
  you. I deeply appreciate it.
• 32:07
  See if there are a couple more before we go.
• 32:11
  Yeah, looks like we are good. OK, so with that, I shall beg
• 32:16
  you adieu until 7:00 PM on Surviving the Survivor.
• 32:21
  Hope to see you there. Take care.
• 32:23
  Thank you very much for watching this video.
• 32:26
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• 32:29
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• 32:32
  below.