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What Is Your Work in Service Of? What would it mean to build an Economy That Serves Life? · The Groundswell Effect

• The Groundswell Effect: And it took me about 20 years to realize that wasn't happening. It was either a greenwash or a distraction or companies Lorraine: And it took me about twenty years to realize that wasn't happening. It was either greenwash or a distraction or companies The Groundswell Effect: going ahead with business as usual with a few side projects that looked at how to reduce harm. And that didn't feel good enough. And it also felt like not something that was going to change from within. It was going to need a whole systemic renewal. Lorraine: Going ahead with business as usual, with a few side projects that looked at how to reduce harm. And that didn't feel good enough and it also felt like not something that was gonna change from within. It was gonna need a whole systemic renewal. The Groundswell Effect: Lorraine, welcome to The Groundswell Effect. This is a show that is trying to get to the bottom of how world builders do what they do. So folks who see a crack in the system and rather than fixing the existing system, they're going around it and I think building the future today. and you actually are the person who Lorraine: The Groundswell Effect. This is a show that is trying to get to the bottom of how world builders do what they do. So folks who see a crack in the system and rather than fixing the existing system, they're going around it and I think building the future today. and you actually are the person who is the most tenacious and clear. The Groundswell Effect: is the most tenacious and clear and specific about doing this work that Lorraine: and specific about doing this work that I've ever met. The Groundswell Effect: I've ever met. Lorraine: Wow. Thanks, The Groundswell Effect: Thanks, Lorraine: Ruth. It's great to be here. so I wonder, rather than me introducing your work, you have such a a cool origin story. Can you kind of tell us how you got to be doing the work, the clarity of purpose work that you're doing now? how did The Groundswell Effect: Ruth. Yeah. so I wonder, rather than me introducing your work, you have such a a cult origin story. Can you kind of tell us how you got to be doing the work, that clarity of purpose work that you're doing now? how did that come to be? Lorraine: that come to be? Sure. Well thank you. Thanks for having me here. It's great to be here. The Groundswell Effect: Sure. Well thank you. Thanks for having me here. It's great to be here. maybe I'll start with the the end in mind and and maybe jump around in time a little bit. Lorraine: Maybe I'll start with the the end in mind and and maybe jump around in time a little bit. I hold a vision. It's sometimes I feel like it's boring to state it because it feels so simple and also vision seems corporate jargon, but it really is a way I see the world around me, which is that the economy serves life. So every business in every region at all scales, meeting any need or want that humanity might have. The Groundswell Effect: I hold a vision. It's sometimes I feel like it's sort of boring to state it because it feels so simple and also vision seems kind of corporate jargon, but it really is a way I see the world around me, which is that the economy serves life. So every business in every region at all scales, meeting any need or want that humanity might have is part of making us healthier. Lorraine: Is part of making us healthier. and by us people. We're able to look after ourselves and our communities and the earth that is our home. The Groundswell Effect: and by us people. We're able to look after ourselves and our communities and the earth that is our home. Lorraine: That's how the economy works. That's the vision I hold. But it turns out that it doesn't really work that way right now. That many businesses might be meeting needs or wants, but they're doing so in a way that creates harm. Sometimes the harm is actually part of the business model, they're actually extractive. The Groundswell Effect: That's how the economy works. That's the vision I hold. But it turns out that it doesn't really work that way right now. That many businesses might be meeting needs and wants, but they're doing so in a way that creates harm. Sometimes the harm is actually part of the business model. They're actually extractive or dependent upon harmful things happening. And I learned that through several decades of working in business and realizing there's gotta be another way for this to work. Lorraine: or dependent upon harmful things happening. And I learned that through several decades of working in business and realizing there's gotta be another way for this to work, that the economy really can and should serve life. And what started to happen as that learning was happening was I realized that while that seems kind of obvious and we were talking about like so much of what we're working on is common sense, right? Like of course we should be allowed to feel better. Of course engaging with a business can be part of being healthier, but it turns out The Groundswell Effect: that the economy really can and should serve life. And what started to happen is that learning was happening was I realized that while that seems kind of obvious and we were talking about like so much of what we're working on is common sense, right? Like of course we should be allowed to feel better. Of course engaging with a business can be part of being healthier, but it turns out that's not the starting point of design or execution for most businesses. and so as I went about my work I realized, that's not how things go. Lorraine: That's not the starting point of design or execution for most businesses. and so as I went about my work, I realized, that's not how things go. I think I'd like to work on making that more part of how things go. So I'll just back up a tiny bit and answer the origin piece. there's a few different ways I could answer it, but the simplest is to say for about 20 some years, I worked in mainstream corporate sustainability. The Groundswell Effect: I think I'd like to work on making that more part of how things go. So I'll just back up a tiny bit and answer the origin piece. there's a few different ways I could answer it, but the simplest is to say for about 20-some years I worked in mainstream corporate sustainability, which is like helping big companies have more positive social and environmental impact. Lorraine: Which is like helping big companies have more positive social and environmental impact. And it took me about twenty years to realize that wasn't happening. It was either greenwash or a distraction or companies The Groundswell Effect: And it took me about 20 years to realize that wasn't happening. It was either a greenwash or a distraction or companies going ahead with business as usual with a few side projects that looked at how to reduce harm. And that didn't feel good enough. And it also felt like not something that was going to change from within. It was going to need a whole systemic renewal. Lorraine: Going ahead with business as usual, with a few side projects that looked at how to reduce harm. And that didn't feel good enough and it also felt like not something that was gonna change from within. It was gonna need a whole systemic renewal. Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. Lorraine: And I wanted to be part of that renewal. So that led me to the work that I do now. The Groundswell Effect: And I wanted to be part of that renewal. Yeah. So that led me to the work that I do now. So I know the work that you do now, like you came from New York City, flying around the world, working for very large companies, being with very powerful people, and you had this kind of realization. how did you do your 180? Lorraine: So I know the work that you do now, like you came from New York City, flying around the world, working for very large companies, being with very powerful people, and you had this kind of realization. how did you do your 180? Yeah, The Groundswell Effect: Yeah, Lorraine: I would describe my journey from The Groundswell Effect: I would describe my journey from Lorraine: mainstream sustainability, working at a fairly senior level with headquartered teams of Fortune 500 companies to look at their corporate sustainability, look at their strategies, look at their impacts, make things better, you know, talk about how business could be a force for good. The Groundswell Effect: mainstream sustainability, working at a fairly senior level with headquartered teams of Fortune 500 companies to look at their corporate sustainability, look at their strategies, look at their impacts, make things better, you know, talk about how business could be a force for good. Lorraine: looking at well, what would need to be disrupted? Well gosh, this is big. It's touching multiple systems, it's touching our education system, it's touching our cultural norms, what we understand growth to mean, what's a good job, what's not a good job, what's a successful business, what's not a successful business. So it was touching lots of things and I'm starting to see more and more how it's fitting together or rather not fitting together. Like there's gotta be a better way to do this. The Groundswell Effect: Looking at well, what would need to be disrupted? Well, gosh, this is big. It's touching multiple systems. It's touching our education system. It's touching our cultural norms. What we understand growth to mean. What's a good job? What's not a good job? What's a successful business? What's not a successful business. So it was touching lots of things. And I'm starting to see more and more how it's fitting together, or rather not fitting together. Like there's got to be a better way to do this. Lorraine: I started to realize, even the most ambitious sustainable projects aren't really serving life. They're just serving a slightly less harmful bottom line. And maybe not even less harmful. Maybe just like The Groundswell Effect: I started to realize, even the most ambitious sustainable projects aren't really serving life. They're just serving a slightly less harmful bottom line. And maybe not even less harmful. Yeah. Maybe just like Lorraine: reoriented for a while, or the phrasing is like we're going to. The Groundswell Effect: reoriented for a while or the phrasing is like we're going to, you know, we're going to have this positive impact over here, kind of apologizing for our business model. So noticing that and questioning it Lorraine: we're going to have this positive impact over here, kind of apologizing for our core business model here. So noticing that and questioning it, and then starting to question it more deeply. And I can remember distinctly in 2018 a conversation with the chairman of the board of one of the largest pulp and paper companies in the world, very comfortable conversation. I was on their advisory board. The Groundswell Effect: And then starting to question it more deeply. And I can remember distinctly in 2018 a conversation with the chairman of the board of one of the largest pulp and paper companies in the world. Very comfortable conversation. I was on their advisory board. Lorraine: It was very collegial, very warm. It's a Brazilian company. I felt very welcomed in the space. I'm a Brazilian Portuguese speaker. I was the only non-Brazilian on the advisory board. And we're out for dinner having this absolutely spectacular meal. We've just been flown into one of their plantations and had all kinds of, you know, rich dialogue. The Groundswell Effect: It was very collegial, very warm. It's a Brazilian company. I felt very welcomed in the space. I'm a Brazilian Portuguese speaker. I was the only non-Brazilian on the advisory board. And we're out for dinner having this absolutely spectacular meal. We've just been flown into one of their plantations and had all kinds of, you know, rich dialogue. Lorraine: And I said something like, Well, one of the things I wonder is like, what would what would it look like when a company like this is aligned with an economy that serves life? And he laughed. The Groundswell Effect: And I said something like, Well, one of the things I wonder is what would what would it look like when a company like this is aligned with an economy that serves life? And he laughed. And it wasn't derisive laughter. It wasn't like you crazy loon, but it sort of like well, you know, I mean we we have to be realistic, right? Like businesses have to be in business, they have to run Lorraine: And it wasn't derisive laughter. It wasn't like you crazy loon, but it well, you know, I mean we we have to be realistic, right? Like businesses have to be in business. They have to run. Yeah, The Groundswell Effect: Yeah, this is contrary. This Lorraine: this is contrary. This is how it goes. Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: is how it goes. Yeah. But it was almost as if when he laughed he could see his own words. And he could see his laughter. It was like wait, why why is that funny? The economy serving life. Lorraine: But it was almost as if when he laughed, he could see his own words. And he he could see his laughter. It was like wait, why why is that funny? The economy serving life. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. and watching his face. This, you know, he was probably in his early sixties, very senior, very affluent, relatively influential in the corporate context. watching that sort of strange moment play out Lorraine: and watching his face. This, you know, he's probably in his early sixties, very senior, very affluent, relatively influential in the corporate context. watching that sort of strange moment play out. The Groundswell Effect: and then practicing that. I had a number of conversations from there where I'd sort of try it with other executives and people senior in business, like what do you Lorraine: And then practicing that, I had a number of conversations from there where I'd try it with other executives and people senior in business, what do you think about the economy serving life? And I get that. Come on. Because there came a moment where enough of those laughter moments snapped into place for me where I was like, that is what the economy is here for. That's the work I want to do. I cannot do this work anymore. It is not serving life. The Groundswell Effect: Think about the economy serving life, and I get that. Come on. Yeah. Because there came a moment where enough of those laughter moments snapped into place for me where I was like, that is what the economy is here for. That's the work I want to do. Yeah. I cannot do this work anymore. It is not serving life. Lorraine: I'm out. The Groundswell Effect: Out and I tapped out. It was Thursday, October 21st, 2021. And I went from by then I was freelancing. I had seven active client projects on the go. I'd left New York, I was living in Montreal. I'd just come back from a five-day run. It's a whole other story, but I've tried an urban ultra marathon, and I put my hand on my doorknob to let myself back into my flat in the old port. And as I was turning the doorknob, I just had this awareness like I'm done. Lorraine: And I tapped out. It was Thursday, October 21st, 2021. And I went from by then I was freelancing. I had seven active client projects on the go. I'd left New York, I was living in Montreal. I'd just come back from a five-day run. It's a whole other story, but a urban ultra marathon. And I put my hand on my doorknob to let myself back into my flat in the old port. And as I was turning the doorknob, I just had this awareness like I'm done. Like I'm walking through a door and I'm stepping in and I'm like. The Groundswell Effect: I'm walking through a door and I'm stepping in and I'm like, The threshold Lorraine: I don't do that anymore. I do this other thing that's working in service of life. The Groundswell Effect: I don't do that anymore. I do this other thing that's working in service of life. But it was like you had these inklings and you'd been I don't know, unraveling this story for many years. Lorraine: wall. It was like you had these inklings and you'd been I don't know, unraveling this story for many years I wonder if you can unpack the idea of in service of life. The Groundswell Effect: I wonder if you can unpack the idea of in service of life. Lorraine: I grew up in Toronto, Canada, I'm Canadian, and I had been working for Canadian Business for Social Responsibility, a not for profit network that supports mostly large companies based in Canada to be more The Groundswell Effect: I I grew up in Toronto, Canada, I'm Canadian, and I had been working for Canadian Business for Social Responsibility, a not for profit network that supports mostly large companies based in Canada to be more Lorraine: responsible. The Groundswell Effect: responsible, corporate responsibility. And when I first got into the field in two thousand three, the main phrase we used was corporate responsibility or corporate social responsibility. It morphed into sustainability, ESG or environmental social governance. morphs around, but basically it hinges on as is it Vanessa Andriotti says like anti assholism. companies not being assholes to the rest of society in service of their own bottom line. And you can Lorraine: corporate responsibility. And when I first got into the field in 2003, the main phrase we used was corporate responsibility or corporate social responsibility. It morphed into sustainability, ESG, or environmental social governance. Kind of morphs around, but basically it hinges on as as is it Vanessa Andreotti says, like anti-assholism. Like companies not being assholes to the rest of society in service of their own bottom line. And you can hook whatever jargon or language in that you want. The Groundswell Effect: Jargon or language in that you want. Lorraine: I had an opportunity to move to New York City. I was still freelancing. I was brought on board to become the director of sustainability, one of the boutique consulting firms The Groundswell Effect: I had an opportunity to move to New York City. I was still freelancing. I was brought on board to become the director of Sustainability, one of the boutique consulting firms called Sustainability. And Lorraine: Called sustainability and kind of same church, different pew, or maybe I would say same shit, different pile, because we had the same issues, mainstream business, timesheets, KPIs, sales targets, and we had more international clients, maybe cooler blue chip companies. But it was there that I started to see. The Groundswell Effect: Kinda same church, different pew, or maybe I would say same shit, different pile. Because we had the same issues, mainstream business, timesheets, KPIs, sales targets, and we had more international clients, maybe cooler blue chip companies. But it was there that I started to see Lorraine: For instance, a big part of what we did was stakeholder engagement. So we're invited to think, okay, who's out there who has knowledge on this or who has deeper expertise or maybe a point of view or a concern, maybe more activist or antagonistic to what the business is doing. And let's go listen to them or let's even bring them into the room and get their perspective. What I kept finding was like, my God. These are the people who actually know what's going on. We're like running up the learning curve. We're pretending to be the experts bringing solutions, but we're actually going out to people who know things how things work. The Groundswell Effect: For instance, a big part of what we did was stakeholder engagement. So we're invited to think, okay, who's out there who has knowledge on this or who has deeper expertise or maybe a point of view or a concern, maybe more activist or antagonistic to what the business is doing. And let's go listen to them or let's even bring them into the room and get their perspective. And what I kept finding was like, my God, these are the people who actually know what's going on. We're like running up the learning curve. We're pretending to be the experts bringing solutions, but we're actually going out to people who know th how things work. Lorraine: And what did they know? They know life's principles. Right? don't breach the seasons. Don't force nature to do things that it's not supposed to do. And when I say they, I'm aggregating lots of different stakeholders who were living The Groundswell Effect: And what did they know? They know life's principles. Right? Like don't breach the seasons. Don't force nature to do things that it's not supposed to do. And when I say they, I'm kind of aggregating lots of different stakeholders who were living Lorraine: in ways outside of the corporate silos that morph things into The Groundswell Effect: in ways outside of the corporate silos that morph things into Lorraine: commodified financialized entities first and then like consider what the impacts on life are afterwards. The Groundswell Effect: commodified financialized entities first and then like consider what the impacts on life are afterwards. So like Lorraine: So like The Groundswell Effect: people. Lorraine: Yeah, human beings, right. Who are y the classic would be in the food and ag sector. I did a lot of food, egg, and forestry work. And so we'd be talking about reducing environmental impacts. And then I'd go out and meet people who were, The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. Human beings, right. Who are you know, y the classic would be in the food and egg sector. I did a lot of food, egg, and forestry work. And so we'd be talking about reducing environmental impacts. And then I'd go out and meet people who were Lorraine: multi The Groundswell Effect: multi-generational agroforestry or or agroecology practitioners who would describe how they do things and I'm like, okay, first of all, it's like brilliant and they don't need our help. Second of all, it's so far from what companies are doing. Lorraine: generational agroforestry or or agroecology practitioners who would describe how they do things and I'm like, Okay, first of all, it's like brilliant and they don't need our help. Second of all, it's so far from what companies are doing. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. And third of all, we're showing up pretending we're helping, but they're actually guiding us. So so, Lorraine: And third of all, we're showing up pretending we're helping, but they're actually guiding us. So so a lot of what I was doing was kind of connecting what's actually going on in the ground to what the executives are asking. The Groundswell Effect: A lot of what I was doing was connecting what's actually going on in the ground to what the executives are asking. Lorraine: I like to think I was working with important influential people, but mostly I was kind of like a worker bee at the at the management level. The Groundswell Effect: I like to think I was working with important influential people, but mostly I was like a worker bee at the at the management level. And occasionally we'd report into the executive teams. And then later, twenty sixteen, when I stepped away from that job, started freelancing, I got a bit pickier and I got invited to more senior Lorraine: And occasionally we'd report into the executive teams. And then later, 2016, when I stepped away from that job, started freelancing, I got a bit pickier and I got invited to more senior roles, but still worker B level. But what became really apparent to me was it didn't in fact, the more senior I got, the more disaggregated it was from how life actually works, it became and what people are actually doing. So that was the serving life. The Groundswell Effect: rules, but still worker B level. But what became really apparent to me was it didn't in fact the more senior I got, the more disaggregated it was from how life actually works. It became and what people are actually doing. So that was the serving life switch. I did not coin that term by any stretch. I was hearing around me like what would it be like for this business to serve life? I don't know if s if somebody actually did coin the term, but I I know it wasn't me. Lorraine: Switch. I did not coin that term by any stretch. I was hearing around me, what would it be like for this business to serve life? I don't know if if somebody actually did coin the term, but I I know it wasn't me. But that notion of serving life in instead of the bottom line, what would it look like and what would it look like to align with life's principles? so in a nutshell, I will explain what that is. The Groundswell Effect: But that notion of serving life in instead of the bottom line, what would it look like and what would it look like to align with life's principles? so in a nutshell, I will explain what that is. Lorraine: So what does it look like when it serves life? Well, that comes up on against some very important details like who's life? The Groundswell Effect: so what does it look like when it serves life well that comes up on against some very important details like whose life Lorraine: What kind of life? Yeah. Who gets des to decide what good life versus not good life or life well served or life not well served? Who's the grand decider there? I think there's really cool The Groundswell Effect: What kind of life? Yeah. Who gets des to decide what good life versus not good life or life well served or life not well served? Who's the grand decider there? I think there's really cool and challenging and potentially polarizing devils lurking in those details. But I'm gonna say actually none of that matters to be able to switch into a paradigm where business serves life. Lorraine: And challenging and potentially polarizing devils lurking in those details. But I'm gonna say actually none of that matters to be able to switch into a paradigm where business serves life if you're willing to recognize where we are today. So today The Groundswell Effect: If you're willing to recognize where we are today. So today Lorraine: we ha like, I mean, the fact that we have a a department in many companies called human resources, right? It's like The Groundswell Effect: We ha the fact that we have a a department in many companies called human resources, right? It's like we and we count them and we monetize them. And we and we have a term called work life balance. Like that it it's funny. Lorraine: We and we count them and we monetize them and we and we have a term called work life balance. Like that it it's funny. I'm The Groundswell Effect: I'm seeing my words. Right? Lorraine: seeing my words. Right? The Groundswell Effect: It's funny. And it comes from a good place of like, I don't want to be ground to a dusty pulp while doing my job. What are some of the coping mechanisms? And how can my employer help make those coping mechanisms real? But if we stand back and we say, Well, well, how does life work? Lorraine: It's funny. And it and it comes from a good place of like, I don't want to be ground to a dusty pulp while doing my job. What are some of the coping mechanisms? And how can my employer help make those coping mechanisms real? But if we stand back and we say, Well, well, how does life work? literally the biological cycles that we understand to be alive versus dead. We have some really cool information. We have things like we could call them life's principles. Folks in biomimicry, a whole amazing field of work, have done great work kinda cataloging or or giving some taxonomy to the concepts of life's principles, things around adapting to conditions. I'm gonna suddenly space on The Groundswell Effect: literally the biological cycles that we understand to be alive versus dead. We have some really cool information. We have things like we could call them life's principles. Folks in biomimicry, a whole amazing field of work, have done great work kinda cataloging or or giving some taxonomy to the concepts of life's principles, things around adapting to conditions. I'm gonna suddenly space on Lorraine: the array of life's principles, but they they exist. It's like how do you know something is alive? And how do you know if it's thriving? we have some pretty good intelligence around that. We have, you know, PhDs and areas of study. If you can just kind of hold that in your sight line for a moment and then come over to those abstractions and say, well, why does that matter in relation to business? The Groundswell Effect: the array of life's principles, but they they exist. It's like how do you know something is alive? And how do you know if it's thriving? we have some pretty good intelligence around that. We have, you know, PhDs and areas of study. If you can just kind of hold that in your sight line for a moment and then come over to those abstractions and say, well, why does that matter in relation to business? Lorraine: So, okay, for instance, my my eyes are falling on a refrigerator that's in our view here. And we think, well, what's a refrigerator? Well, it's a way to keep food cold. Okay, cool. And there's good things. Prevent microbial overgrowth or whatever. Keep food safe. Cool. What if we stand all the way back and we say, What is eating for human beings? The Groundswell Effect: So, okay, for instance, my my eyes are falling on a refrigerator that's in our view here. And we think, well, what's a refrigerator? Well, it's a way to keep food cold. Okay, cool. And there's good things. Prevent microbial overgrowth or whatever. Keep food safe. Cool. What if we stand all the way back and we say, what is eating for human beings? Lorraine: And what are some of the most kind of community oriented The Groundswell Effect: And what are some of the most community-oriented, resilience-creating, human well-being, individual well-being, family, or like self- and other well-being things that can happen with food? I'm just gonna go out on a twig and say very few people would say we should eat alone more. Lorraine: Resilience creating human well-being, individual well-being, family, or like self and other well-being things that can happen with food. I'm just gonna go out on a twig and say very few people would say we should eat alone more. Right? Eating alone, it's not the end of the world, but it's certainly not the beginning of creating community. And more and more we're seeing the importance of communal eating, for wisdom transfer, for learning about food, for learning about life, for looking after one another, and and and and. The Groundswell Effect: Right? Eating alone, it's not the end of the world, but it's certainly not the beginning of creating community. And more and more we're seeing the importance of communal eating for wisdom transfer, for learning about food, for learning about life, for looking after one another, and in and and and so if you look at something as simple as private refrigeration, Lorraine: So if you look at something as simple as private refrigeration, you can see that as an industry, it can stand behind. It say, well, we're preventing food spoilage, we're blah, blah, blah. But actually, you're hyper materializing. Like think of the volume of a fridge, all the things that go into it. You're hypermaterializing an expensive, heavy, hard to ship, clunky, energy draining thing that causes people to eat alone. The Groundswell Effect: You can see that as an industry, it can stand behind. They say, Well, we're preventing food spoilage, we're blah blah blah. But actually, you're hyper-materializing. Like, think of the volume of a fridge, all the things that go into it. You're hyper-materializing an expensive, heavy, hard-to-ship, clunky, energy-draining thing that causes people to eat alone. Lorraine: And The Groundswell Effect: And Lorraine: that's an absurd notion if your job is to amp up the success of your refrigeration business, but if your job is to serve life, you're gonna you're gonna stand back and go, wait, what how did we eat before? What was good about that? What's missing into look, a loneliness epidemic. Well look, communities who are falling apart. The Groundswell Effect: That's an absurd notion if your job is to amp up the success of your refrigeration business, but if your job is to serve life, you're gonna you're gonna stand back and go, wait, what how did we eat before? What was good about that? What's missing into look, a loneliness epidemic. Well look, communities who are falling apart. And I just cast my eye on your fridge. Lorraine: and I mean just cast my eye on your fridge. I could I could like you know go this is such a good example. The Groundswell Effect: I could I could go. But this is such a good example of incoherence. Yeah. Lorraine: Yeah. This is I as I reflect on my work and The Groundswell Effect: This is I as I reflect on my work and why I do what I do, that word is coming up a lot for me because I think it's like Lorraine: Because I think it's like it's The Groundswell Effect: It's like the princess and the pea. And I never know how to like my interpretation is that that pea it's so small, but there's so many mattresses. It gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And you think it's getting tamped down for some people, but for s other people, I think the people I'm having on the show, it's amplified and we just can't like deal with it anymore. And the incoherence that is Lorraine: like the princess and the pea. And I never know how to like my interpretation is that that P it's so small, but there's so many mattresses. It gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And you think it's getting tamped down for some people, but for s other people, I think the people are getting amplified. Amplified the show. Yeah. It's amplified and we just can't deal with it anymore. Yeah. And the incoherence that is The Groundswell Effect: constantly in in our view, Lorraine: Constantly in in our view because we serve we serve the bottom line rather than serving values. That's that's how I would kind of describe it. The Groundswell Effect: Because we serve we serve the bottom line rather than serving values. That's that's how I would kind of describe it. Lorraine: Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. And and I think, you know, despite all the political garbage and I don't know, dumpster fires you know that are going on in the Lorraine: And and I think you know, despite all the political garbage and I don't know, dumpster fires, yeah, you know, that are going on in the The Groundswell Effect: world, I actually think everybody wants the same thing. And it's so confusing why we're having all these arguments, because Lorraine: Think everybody wants the same thing and it's so confusing why we're having all these arguments because like we want to belong with one another, we want safety to grow, The Groundswell Effect: we want to belong with one another. We want safety to grow. Yeah, Lorraine: yeah. You know, our thinking and our bodies and our hearts, and we want to be loved and we want to give love and we wanna be healthy, like these are table sticks, everybody wants these things. The Groundswell Effect: our thinking and our bodies and our hearts. And we wanna be loved and we wanna give love and we wanna be healthy. Like these are table stakes. Everybody wants these things. But then we have all of these things in the system that disallow that. Yeah. Like the refrigerator Lorraine: But then we have all of these things in the system that disallow that. Yeah. Like the refrigerator. Yeah. And where this sometimes goes is like, okay, but so what are you saying, Lorraine? We shouldn't have refrigeration. And it becomes this very simplistic, yeah, no, that's not what I'm saying. Yes, that is what I we should have refrigeration. We shouldn't have it. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. And y where this sometimes goes is like, okay, but so what are you saying, Lorraine? We shouldn't have refrigeration. And it becomes this very simplistic Yeah, no, that's not what I'm saying. Yes, that is what we should have refrigeration. We shouldn't have it. We should all we should share one fridge per five households. No, that's communism. And suddenly it it rips everybody apart or paralyzes folks where it's like, God, now I have to think about my fridge, you know? Lorraine: We should all we should share one fridge per five households. No, that's communism. And suddenly it it rips everybody apart or paralyzes folks where it's like, God, now I have to think about my fridge, you know? And where where I land is well, y you might think about your fridge and it's, you know, probably a place you could improve, I don't know, what's in it or how much food you share or how much you're wasting or whatever. The Groundswell Effect: And where where I land is well, you you might think about your fridge and it's, you know, probably a place you could improve, I don't know, what's in it or how much food you share or how much you're wasting or whatever. But the bigger question is if if I'm in business, if I if I work in a business or if I if I make decisions that influence outcomes of any sort, from what I put in my fridge and what I feed myself and my family to the multi-billion dollar company that I run and how that capital is deployed. Lorraine: But the bigger question is if if I'm in business, if I if I work in a business or if I if I make decisions that influence outcomes of any sort, from what I put in my fridge and what I feed myself and my family to the multi billion dollar company that I run and how that capital is deployed, The Groundswell Effect: What decisions am I making? How am I making those decisions? What am I deciding equals success or not? constraints or not? Lorraine: what decisions am I making? How am I making those decisions? What am I deciding equals success or not, constraints or not? The Groundswell Effect: And to what degree am I considering what makes life viable? Maybe worth living, but but more fundamentally, what allows us to live well? And a a simple bar I hear described sometimes is if it's not serving life, it's undermining life. Lorraine: And to what degree am I considering what makes life viable? Maybe worth living, but more fundamentally, what allows us to live well? And a a simple bar I hear described sometimes is if it's not serving life, it's undermining life. And we we could say, if you want to just play with refrigeration for a moment, the loneliness epidemic is not serving life. One way to The Groundswell Effect: And we we could say, if you want to just play with refrigeration for a moment, the loneliness epidemic is not serving life. One way to empower Lorraine: empower people to have greater social connection is to find ways for them to eat together. We were just talking about our common friend Joshna and she's running these separate clubs that bring people together and I think part of that is connected to this community idea. The premise isn't cancel refrigeration. It's enable The Groundswell Effect: people to have greater social connection is to find ways for them to eat together. We were just talking about our common friend Joshna, and she's running these separate clubs that bring people together. And I think part of that is connected to this community idea. The premise isn't cancel refrigeration, it's enable Lorraine: food sharing and community eating. And so if I'm a person I'm not actually in the refrigeration industry, but if I were, I'd be looking at what is my role The Groundswell Effect: Food sharing and community eating. Yeah. And so if I'm a person I'm not actually in the refrigeration industry, but if I were, I'd be looking at what is my role as somebody making decisions that can help people eat well, eat in community, and be part of a shift towards more healthy eating and Lorraine: As somebody making decisions that can help people eat well, eat in community, and be part of a shift towards more healthy eating and community. 100%. The Groundswell Effect: community. Hundred percent. Lorraine: what I'm hearing is is this is really parallel to my work, but rather than focus on the solution, like the fridge was the solution. The Groundswell Effect: What I'm hearing is is this is really parallel to my work, but rather than focus on the solution, like the fridge was the solution. Right. Lorraine: Right. The Groundswell Effect: We Lorraine: We came to that. The Groundswell Effect: came to that through flawed logic. I'm placed my bets there. So let's back up the truck. Let's decide what the logic is that we want to follow. What's the problem we're trying to solve? Yeah. And then each step of the way, if we know what problem we solve, we can check back and say, Hey, are we Lorraine: through flawed logic. on place of my butts there. So let's back up the truck. Let's decide what the logic is that we want to follow. Right. What's the problem we're trying to solve? Yeah. And then each step of the way, if we know what problem we solve, we can check back and say, hey, are we, are we The Groundswell Effect: are we Lorraine: solving loneliness? The Groundswell Effect: solving loneliness? Lorraine: We we bump into a structural problem. Can I go into the dark side for a bit here? Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: We we bump into a structural problem. Can I go into the dark side for a bit here? Yeah. So if you if you play this out, which I have done many times, either just sort of in really fun conversations or in more tactical advisory contexts, you hit a real problem, which is today we live in a world where, like when you do go to let's say get groceries or Lorraine: So if you if you play this out, which I have done many times either just sort of in really fun conversations or in more tactical advisory contexts, you hit a real problem, which is today we live in a world where like when you do go to let's say get groceries or you know The Groundswell Effect: fix your chair or whatever, the people that you're engaging with expect you to pay in some kind of fiat currency, not in lofty ideas about what we remember. And it's difficult, or in some cases I'd say impossible or just not viable to function in a paradigm where we look after ourselves, one another, and the earth that is our home in industrial shifts that enable all these wonderful things to happen. Lorraine: Fix your chair or whatever, the people that you're engaging with expect you to pay in some kind of fiat currency, not in lofty ideas about what we remember. And it's difficult, or in some cases I'd say impossible, or just not viable to function in a paradigm where we look after ourselves, one another, and the earth that is our home in industrial shifts that enable all these wonderful things to happen. well being in September twenty twenty six where like you have a tax bill and a mortgage and a grocery bill. So how do you do that? And if you're the the refrigeration industry guides, you're like, I'm sorry, people have fridges and new homes are being built and there are compliance regulations in restaurants, etcetera, around how what temperature foods need to be at. You can't just suddenly question The Groundswell Effect: well being in September twenty twenty six where like you have a tax bill and a mortgage and a grocery bill. So how do you do that? And if you're the the refrigeration industry guides, you're like, I'm sorry, people have fridges and new homes are being built and there are compliance regulations in restaurants, etc. around how which temperature foods need to be at. You can't just suddenly question Lorraine: the the simple appliances that have come to be in our day-to-day lives. And that's just pulling on one thread of of household refrigeration. So what are you actually proposing to deal with this? And and you bump into two structural problems over and over. One is The Groundswell Effect: the the simple appliances that have come to be in our day-to-day lives. And that's just pulling on one thread of of household refrigeration. So like what are you actually proposing to deal with this? And and you bump into two structural problems over and over. One is Lorraine: today's system is so financialized and so commodified that even if you and I could have the coolest conversation in the world and crack it and be like, you know, this is how we keep our food safe and eat in community be so great. The Groundswell Effect: Today's system is so financialized and so commodified that even if you and I could have the coolest conversation in the world and crack it and be like, this is how we keep our food safe and even so great. And who doesn't want that? Because across the poles and divides everyone agrees, done, we got it. We still bump into who's gonna pay for that and how, and by the way, what are we gonna do with all the other fridges or the things that are now obsolete? And you can play that out across pretty much every industry. Lorraine: And who doesn't want that? Because across the polls and divides, everyone agrees. Done. We got it. We still bump into who's gonna pay for that and how. And by the way, what are we gonna do with all the other fridges or the things that are now obsolete? And you can play that out across pretty much every industry. So that's that's already a big problem. we are so systemically locked into a current model that that designing and dreaming another one into The Groundswell Effect: So that's that's already a big problem. we are so systemically locked into a current model that that designing and dreaming another one into being is has some very real logistical hiccups. The second problem I would offer is even bigger, Lorraine: being is has some very real logistical hiccups. The second problem I would offer is even bigger, actually, I don't really have this figured out, but this comes up all the time anyway, so I have to name it. Which is we're so born and bred into this system that The Groundswell Effect: actually I don't really have this figured out, but this comes up all the time, so I have to name it. Which is we're so born and bred into this system that Lorraine: even bumping into the kind of stardusty inkling goodness of like, yeah. The Groundswell Effect: Even bumping into the kind of stardusty inkling goodness of like, yeah, what would it be like if we didn't all have our own fridges? Like you can sense it. You've invited me here. You get these, like, yeah, there's something else here. Most people Lorraine: Be like if we didn't all have our own fridges. you can sense it. You've invited me here. You get these, yeah, there's something else here. Most people. Can't or won't go there. This isn't a sparkly magical conversation. It's either weird, dangerous, inaudible, it's gonna hit at a frequency that just doesn't register, or some other nah can't do it. And it turns out that most people vote by things, you know, like shop and influence our The Groundswell Effect: Can't or won't go there. This isn't a sparkly magical conversation. It's either weird, dangerous, inaudible, it's gonna hit at a frequency that just doesn't register, or some other like na can't do it. Yeah. And it turns out that most people vote by things, you know, like shop and influence are Lorraine: our shared reality. So I live with a couple questions there. One on the first one is like, how do we nonetheless financialize a better way of being, or end financialization, which would be another fun party trick. But the bigger one is how do we make just like in nineteen ninety five, Google was two guys in a garage, right? Now it's a verb. So how do we go from the kind of two women in a living room to The Groundswell Effect: our shared reality. So I live with a couple questions there. One on the first one is like, how do we nonetheless financialize a better way of being or end financialization, which would be another fun party trick. But the bigger one is how do we make just like in nineteen ninety five Google was two guys in a garage, right? Now it's a verb. So how do we go from the kind of two women in a living room to Lorraine: The economy serving life is a a norm that isn't even questioned. There's a big bridge. Ha apps, iPhones or or smartphones, right? In two thousand it was a twinkle in someone's eye, but not in your in my pocket. Today, probably everyone you know from age nine up has a smartphone and access to all the apps and all the things. So it's so normalized that it's not even questioned The Groundswell Effect: The economy serving life is a norm that isn't even questioned. There's a big bridge. Ha apps, iPhones or or smartphones, right? In two thousand, it was a twinkle in someone's eye, but not in your in my pocket. Today, probably everyone you know from age nine up has a smartphone and access to all the apps and all the things. So it's so normalized that it's not even questioned. Lorraine: for everyone, for those people. The Groundswell Effect: for everyone, for those people. Yeah. So we have both the structural systemic economic reality gap Lorraine: So we have both the structural systemic economic reality gap The Groundswell Effect: yeah Lorraine: and the mindset, why would that even be normal and a thing gap? And those are the two pieces that I kind of play with all day. The Groundswell Effect: and the mindset, why would that even be normal and a thing gap? And those are the two pieces that I kind of play with all day. So what allows you to be outside of Lorraine: So what allows you to be outside of them? The Groundswell Effect: them? Lorraine: I'm gonna have a sip water on that one. The Groundswell Effect: gonna have sip of water on that one. Mm. Lorraine: Mm. Or what forces you? Do you know what I mean? Like is it a push, a pull? The Groundswell Effect: Or what forces you? Do you know what I mean? Like is it a push, a pull? Lorraine: Well, I mean the simple answer to that is I don't get to be outside of them any more than anybody else. I I am not independently wealthy. I don't have a spouse. I am totally self funded and that's I'll be candid and say that's very awkward at times and and comes with the same The Groundswell Effect: Well, I mean the simple answer to that is I don't get to be outside of them any more than anybody else. I I am not independently wealthy. I don't have a spouse. I am totally self funded and that's I'll be candid and say that's very awkward at times and and comes with the same Lorraine: roller coaster of shoot, how's this gonna work? How am I gonna pay my mortgage? How am I going to feed my chickens who are they g they have needs. so I don't really get to be outside The Groundswell Effect: roller coaster of shoot, how's this gonna work? How am I gonna pay my mortgage? How am I going to feed my chickens? Whoever they g they have needs. so I don't really get to be outside. Lorraine: of it. I guess maybe the question then is how does it feel to have awareness? The Groundswell Effect: I guess maybe the question then is how does it feel to have awareness? Uh-huh. Yeah, and what and and the way I hear the question is like how how come I'm talking about this? How come I've made part of my work addressing this, even though Lorraine: Uh-huh. Yeah, and what and and the way I hear the question is like how how come I'm talking about this? How come I've made part of my work addressing this, even though I don't have to and sometimes I think it'd be easier not to. It would The Groundswell Effect: I don't have to and sometimes I think it'd be easier not to It would be. Lorraine: be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the first thing that was coming to mind as you asked that question The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. Yeah. the first thing that was coming to mind as you asked that question Lorraine: I'm just gonna see what happens here because it was such a powerful here's the answer w is dreams. And I when I say dreams, I'm sort of goosebumping as I say this. I feel like our our capacity to dream, by which I mean when we're asleep, like there's dreaming like I dream of, you know, seven chickens instead of five. but that's just me talking to my friend Ruth about some dreams I have. But I mean when I'm asleep and the things that my mind serves up while sleeping. That's what I mean by dreams. The Groundswell Effect: I'm just gonna see what happens here because it was such a powerful, here's the answer, w is dreams. And I when I say dreams, I'm sort of goosebumping as I say this. I feel like our our capacity to dream, by which I mean when we're asleep, like they're dreaming like, I dream of, you know, seven chickens instead of five. but that's just me talking to my friend Ruth about some dreams I have. But I mean when I'm asleep and the things that my mind serves up while sleeping. That's what I mean by dreams. Lorraine: I believe our dreams are such powerful technology. The Groundswell Effect: I believe our dreams are such powerful technology. Lorraine: Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. Lorraine: Such powerful technology. Free, available to everybody all the time, everywhere, under resourced, and in fact marginalized or semi-ridiculed. And why do I think they're a powerful technology? Because they share things with us, sometimes really cool things, right? Like s I'm sure we all know people, certainly people listening here know people if they haven't experienced themselves. The Groundswell Effect: Such powerful technology. Free, available to everybody all the time, everywhere, under resourced, and in fact marginalized or semi-ridiculed. And why do I think they're a powerful technology? Because they share things with us, sometimes really cool things, right? Like I'm sure we all know people, certainly people listening here know people if they haven't experienced themselves. Lorraine: really uncanny things that have happened in dreams, right? Where you've connected with someone or remembered something. So there's that. That's already wow, that's really cool. But I think there's even more basic things that get shared with us, ways things can be. And that can be anything from, you know, you were outside and you had your feet in the grass and you could feel it, to you were scared of something really bad happening. The Groundswell Effect: really uncanny things that have happened in dreams, right? Where you connected with someone or remembered something. So there's that. That's already wow, that's really cool. But I think there's even more basic things that get shared with us, ways things can be. And that can be anything from, you know, you were outside and you had your feet in the grass and you could feel it. Yeah. To you were scared of something really bad happening. Lorraine: Right, and it's it's terrifying, it's a nightmare, it's no good. All of that is information. And all of that can come and go in different ways and formats. And so how how do I get to be envisioning and holding the vision of an economy that serves life? Well, part of it is it's coming to me in my dreams over and over and over and over and over. The Groundswell Effect: Right? And it's it's terrifying. It's a nightmare. It's no good. All of that is information. And all of that can come and go in different ways and formats. And so how how do I get to be envisioning and holding the vision of an economy that serves life? Well, part of it is it's coming to me in my dreams over and over and over and over and over. Ok you Lorraine: Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: have to describe what that looks like. Well, okay, Lorraine: Well, okay, So in in real awake life, we've been talking for a number of years about some of the very rapid declines in insect populations. And it's concerning from a whole bunch of angles, right? So I had this dream. I've had a few that stay with me and come back and they're just like This dream happened in about The Groundswell Effect: So in in real awake life, we've been talking for a number of years about some of the very rapid declines in insect populations. And it's concerning from a whole bunch of angles, right? So I had this dream. I've had a few that stay with me and come back and they're just like This dream happened in about Lorraine: It was around twenty twenty. Twenty twenty was a very rich dream year I'm walking down the sidewalk. at the time I live in Montreal in real life, but it was a Toronto sidewalk, and there's a hedge, lots of hedges along gardens here, and I heard something on the other side of the hedge, and I like, what's that? And was a really The Groundswell Effect: It was around twenty twenty. Twenty twenty was a very rich dream year, I'm walking down the sidewalk. at the time I live in Montreal in real life, but it was a Toronto sidewalk, and there's a hedge, lots of hedges along gardens here, and I heard something on the other side of the hedge, and I was like, what's that? And it was a really Lorraine: kind of like magical qu'est-ce que say, So in my dream I could part the hedge and like look in. And it was like we made it. They were all it was just full of insects and dragonflies and butterflies and sounds. And and I just I could feel I'm on the other side of this hedge and it's there. It's happening. And I could feel the rest of my body on the other side and I'm like, there's a divide. The Groundswell Effect: magical like qu'est-ce que say you know so in my dream I could part the hedge and like look in and it was like we made it. They were it was just full of insects and dragonflies and butterflies and sounds and and I just I could feel I'm on the other side of this hedge and it's there. It's happening. And I could feel the rest of my body on the other side and I'm like, there's a divide. Lorraine: There's a place where we've The Groundswell Effect: There's a place where we've got it figured out and it's happening. We did it. I had this feeling like right into my bones. We did it. We did it. And the other part of me that's on the other side of the head, because I'm reaching through, is like, I'm still over here on this side. Yeah. So I woke up and I was like, there's a line. Lorraine: Got it figured out and it's happening. We did it. I had this feeling like right into my bones. We did it. We did it. And the other part of me that's on the other side of the hedge, because I'm reaching through, is like, I'm still over here on this side. So I woke up and I was like, there's a line. You can you can first of all you can exist on both sides of the line. Part of you can be like, I gotta go to my job and do the things I don't love, they don't make sense. But another part of me can be listening and learning and sensing and my gosh, what's that little one? Some of them were just like these crazy, like, I mean, wild. I don't even know if they're real insects. So part of it was just hearing, I can be on both like I can experience two things at once. It's part of just being alive. But the other really big like The Groundswell Effect: You can you can first of all you can exist on both sides of the line. Part of you can be like, I gotta go to my job and do the things I don't love, they don't make sense. But another part of me can be listening and learning and sensing it. my gosh, what's that little one? Some of them were just like these crazy, like, I mean, wild. don't even know if they're real inside. So part of it was just hearing, I can be on both like I can experience two things at once. It's part of just being alive. But the other really big like wow. Lorraine: just washing over me goosebumpy, was there's a line. You're not imagining it. Yeah. It's real. You're either your feet are on the cement of the sidewalk that's all smoothed over and organized, so you go this way and you don't or hang on, hang on, what's that? there's this whole other world teeming with life. And we get to be in it. Yeah. We get to be in it. The Groundswell Effect: just washing over me goosebumpy, was there's a line. You're not imagining it. Yeah. It's real. You're either your feet are on the cement of the sidewalk that's all smoothed over and organized, so you go this way and you don't or hang on, hang on, what's that? there's this whole other world teeming with life. And we get to be in it. Yeah. We get to be in it. Lorraine: So that was like I woke up and felt like I'd been in an oxygen chamber all night. I was just like that's just a free dream. I got to go to sleep and wake up oxygenated, Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: So that was I woke up and felt like I've been in an oxygen chamber only. I was just like that's just a free dream. I got to go to sleep and wake up oxygenated, you know? Yeah. So the dream word is the answer to, is that like the visceral answer to how do I get to be here? But there's there's another answer that's feeling really alive, which is like Lorraine: So the dream word is the answer to is that like the visceral answer to how do I get to be here? But there's there's another answer that's feeling really alive, which is like The Groundswell Effect: most people I talk to, and I put myself in this bucket, when we were growing up, we were we were educated, we were schooled, we were taught things, and a lot of that was packaged in the concept of like so you can get a good job. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think learning things and doing good work and getting paid well, those are like wonderful. Lorraine: most people I talk to, and I put myself in this bucket, when we were growing up, we were we were educated, we were schooled, we were taught things, and a lot of that was packaged in the concept of so you can get a good job. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think learning things and doing good work and getting paid well, those are wonderful. But what got missed in that for me was like, why would you want a good job? You know, it isn't just so you can have nice chairs, you know, your brother's gonna give you nice chairs. The Groundswell Effect: But what got missed in that for me was like why would you want a good job? You know, it isn't just so you can have nice chairs, you know, your brothers can have nice chairs. And it isn't just so you can go flying around the world. It's so you can enjoy a full life. You can look after yourself, others and the world around you. And Lorraine: And it isn't just so you can go flying around the world. It's so you can enjoy a full life. You can look after yourself, others, and the world around you. And The Groundswell Effect: school didn't really teach us how to do that for the most part. There might have been some fun field trips, but there's such an emphasis on science. Right. And so that's what became more and more obvious as I went deeper into business. I feel like I was a bit slow on the uptake. Lorraine: school didn't really teach us how to do that for the most part. There might have been some fun field trips, but there's such an emphasis on math and science. And and so that's what became more and more obvious as I went deeper into business. I feel like I was a bit slow on the uptake. there came a moment for me where I just couldn't unsee how much most of what we were taught to do and most of what business is designed to do is not that. The Groundswell Effect: there came a moment for me where I just couldn't unsee how much most of what we were taught to do and most of what business is designed to do is not that. Lorraine: It's not looking after Yeah, being alive and being well. In fact, that's seen as the thing you balance with everything else. And it's seen as a luxury. The Groundswell Effect: It's not looking after Yeah, like being alive and being well. In fact that's seen as like the thing you balance with everything else. And it's seen as a luxury. Lorraine: Maybe I have a different perspective. Maybe I have a way of seeing that's different. And maybe that could be put in better service than just noticing and complaining about The Groundswell Effect: Maybe I have a different perspective. Maybe I have a way of seeing that's different. And maybe that could be put in better service than just noticing and complaining about it. Well you are. And I got to be a part of your inaugural Lorraine: it. well, you are. And I got to be a part of your inaugural. The Groundswell Effect: program of practice change. Thank you. which was just I mean as a participant Lorraine: change. Thank you. which was just I mean, as a participant, an unforgettable experience and a connection to a community of people who are seeers and are trying to figure out what they can do with what they see. Yeah. do you want to talk a little bit about The Groundswell Effect: an unforgettable experience and a connection to a community of people who are seers and are trying to figure out what they can do with what they see. Yeah. do you want to talk a little bit about the Lorraine: the the practice and how it developed, how you got to it, how it's developing. The Groundswell Effect: the practice and how it's sure developed, how you got to it, how it's developing? Lorraine: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And I'm I'm really glad you've you've been a part of the beginning. You've been part of making it real. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And I'm I'm really glad you've you've been a part of the beginning. You've been part of making it real. Lorraine: well yeah, so in a nutshell practice change, it is both a program that I curate and it's a practice that I do. So maybe I'll begin with the practice itself. for lots of reasons, you know, I'm definitely not alone. We're not The Groundswell Effect: Well, yeah, so in a nutshell practice change, it is both a program that I curate and it's a practice that I do. So maybe I'll begin with the practice itself. for lots of reasons, you know, I'm definitely not alone. We're not Lorraine: even that special really in noticing how systemically harmful a lot of these day to day realities are, how industry, you know, endless growth doesn't work. Like the math breaks down at a certain point. So we're at that kind of tipping point and and what will it look The Groundswell Effect: even that special really in noticing how systemically harmful a lot of these day to day realities are, how industry, you know, endless growth doesn't work. Like the math breaks down at a certain point. So we're at that kind of tipping point, and and what will it look like? Lorraine: like? And what what do I want it to look like? What do you want it to look like? What what's possible up ahead? So there's lots of folks noticing possible alternatives. The Groundswell Effect: To look like what do you want it to look like? What's possible up ahead? So there's lots of folks noticing possible alternatives. Where we bump into trouble, it's well, what do I do about it? What's my role? How do I keep going? How do I earn a living? etc. And so when I pulled the plug on that Thursday in October 2021, I pulled the plug on a quite a good living, actually. I was earning quite well. I had more work than I could handle. I could turn away work. Lorraine: where we bump into trouble is well what do I do about it? What's my role? How do I keep going? How do I earn a living? Etc. And so when I pulled the plug on that Thursday in October 2021, I pulled the plug on a quite a good living, actually. I was earning quite well. I had more work than I could handle. I could turn away work. And I didn't think about paying for things. I didn't think about booking a flight or or any The Groundswell Effect: And I didn't think about paying for things. I didn't think about booking a flight or or any financial I mean I live relatively modestly, but I I didn't have to think about covering my expenses by any means. Lorraine: Financial I I live relatively modestly, but I I didn't have to think about covering my expenses by any means. as soon as you pull the plug on that, you have to ask some questions. what am I gonna do now? You know, I could live off some of what I'd earned, but not indefinitely. in fact, not not for very long. and so I live on planet Earth where I have to pay for stuff. And so I started to navigate, well, how will this look? The Groundswell Effect: As soon as you pull the plug on that, you have to ask some questions. what am I gonna do now? I could live off some of what I'd earned, but not indefinitely. Yeah. in fact not not for very long. and so I live on planet Earth where I have to pay for stuff. And so I started to navigate, well, how will this look? Yeah, and there's lots of things I could say about the work I did then, but what I was able to do was draw on a practice that I had developed organically through some very amazing coaching. I was coached by this incredible woman named Laurie Gerber, who by the way is our first guest as the practice changer speaker in the next cohort, changed my life. Lorraine: And there's lots of things I could say about the work I did then, but what I was able to do was draw on a practice that I had developed organically through some very amazing coaching. I was coached by this incredible woman named Lori Gerber, who by the way is our first guest as the practice changer speaker, yeah, in the next cohort, changed my life. And it led me to a series of questions. The Groundswell Effect: And it led me to a series of questions that I could just ask myself repeatedly. For me, the cadence that works is about once a week, but actually the tougher things get the more regularly I ask. Lorraine: That I could just ask myself repeatedly. For me, the cadence that works is about once a week, but actually the tougher things get, the more regularly I ask. The Groundswell Effect: and just by asking and answering those questions, it invites it invites the next step. It invites the path. It's one of those like, you know, leap and the net will appear. You hear the the saying, this is like ask these questions and your path will appear. And Lorraine: and just by asking and answering those questions, it invites, it invites the next step, it invites the path. It's one of those like, you know, leap and the net will appear. You hear the the saying, this is like, ask these questions and your path will appear. And The Groundswell Effect: it's helped me a great deal. So I'll can I just do the questions? Lorraine: It's helped me a great deal. So I'll can I just do the questions? The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. Yeah. Lorraine: Yeah. So I mean, they're so simple, but as you've seen, there's a little bit of white magic hiding in The Groundswell Effect: So I mean, they're so simple, but as you've seen, there's a little bit of white magic hiding it. Lorraine: them. The first question is what is it that I seek to change from what to what? And that's already a deal breaker for a lot of folks. It's actually kind of fun to see like, you know, a lot of people I work with, I'm working on climate change. So so what's the change? Well I'm fighting climate change. so you're fighting? The Groundswell Effect: first question is what is it that I seek to change from what to what? And that's already a deal breaker for a lot of folks. It's actually kind of fun to see like, you know, a lot of people I work with, I'm working on climate change. I'm so so what's the change? Well I'm fighting climate change. so you're fighting? Lorraine: No, no, I want like climate change to be addressed. The Groundswell Effect: No, no, I want climate change to be addressed. This I got so stuck on this question. Lorraine: I got so stuck on this. It's yeah. The Groundswell Effect: So so a simple answer, what is it I seek to change from what to what? I seek to shift from very few people have ever even thought that the economy could serve life to it's an everyday thought. Of course it does. Now I could go down layers of detail. So what changes them? What changes them? But I get real crisp on what is it I seek to change from what to what? And then the second question is where a real white magic lives, because you can't analyze this one. Lorraine: So so a simple answer, what is it I seek to change from what to what? I seek to shift from very few people have ever even thought that the economy could serve life to it's an everyday thought. Of course it does. Now I could go down layers of detail, so what changes them, what changes them. But I get real crisp on what is it I seek to change from what to what? And then the second question is where a real white magic lives, because y you can't analyze this one. How does it feel when the change is true? The Groundswell Effect: How does it feel when the change is true? yeah. What's it like now that I walk through the world where most people wouldn't even dream of questioning that the economy is here to serve life? What is it like when that is true? And allow it to be true. Try it on. Truly let it be part of my lived experience in this moment right now. Lorraine: What's it like now that I walk through the world where most people wouldn't even dream of questioning that the economy is here to serve life? What is it like when that is true? And allow it to be true. Try it on. Truly let it be part of my lived experience in this moment right now, present tense, positive. I'm the first person protagonist of this change being true. What is it like when the change is true? And you saw in real time and and I see it. The Groundswell Effect: Present tense, positive, I'm the first person protagonist of this change being true. What is it like when the change is true? And you saw in real time, and and I see it weekly when we have these live calls, people cry when they try on their change. They for the sometimes for the very first time they're giving themselves I gave myself permission, be like, wait, wait, wait, what is yeah, what is it like when I look Lorraine: weekly when we have these live calls. People cry when they try on their change. They for the sometimes for the very first time they're giving themselves I gave myself permission to be like, wait, wait, wait, what is yeah, what is it like when I live this dream? It's a kind of visualization. It has a few elements to it that we we layer in. And then I cried. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. It's a kind of visualization. It has a few elements to it that we we layer in. I feel like I cried. Lorraine: Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. Yeah. Lorraine: Yeah. Yeah. There was there were some tears. Yeah. There and it's normal because we because suddenly you get to The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. There were some tears. Yeah. There and it's normal because suddenly you get to be where you're trying to get to. Lorraine: Be where you're trying to get to. Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. A another thing that happens sometimes is people realise I actually I don't really want that. I've been saying this for years. I've been working on this for years. I built this organization. I did this, whatever. I lost the trail. I d that is not what I want. And then you get to what do you want? You know, and you get into these deeper but usually we're we're on track, we know what we want, we and we get crisp on I wanna change from this to this. Lorraine: Another thing that happens sometimes is people realize, I actually I don't really want that. I've been saying this for years. I've been working on this for years. I built this organization. I did this, whatever. I lost the trail. I d that is not what I want. And then you get to what do you want? and you get into these deeper, but usually we're we're on track, we know what we want, we and we get crisp on I want to change from this to this. The Groundswell Effect: Here's what it's like, my gosh, it's amazing. But I gotta come back to reality right now, September twenty whatever it is, twenty six. Lorraine: Here's what it's like. my gosh, it's amazing. But I gotta come back to reality right now, September 2, whatever it is, 26. The Groundswell Effect: it's not true now. So third question, what's one thing I can do this week to make that change come true? And I'm gonna do it this week. So this isn't my to-do list. This isn't the intergenerational paradigm shift of all times. This is one thing I'm gonna do this week to make my change come true. Lorraine: it's not true now. So, third question: what's one thing I can do this week to make that change come true? And I'm gonna do it this week. So this isn't my to-do list. This isn't the intergenerational paradigm shift of all times. This is one thing I'm gonna do this week to make my change come true. The Groundswell Effect: And that can be literally text Lorraine: And that can be literally text. The Groundswell Effect: Janice back about the food system project we're working on. Send a text to Janice. It could be that small. It could be, you know, deeper. It could be map out on my whiteboard the vision for the next five years. Whatever it is, it's just one thing and you will do it this week. Lorraine: Janice back about the food system project we're working on. Send a text to Janice. It could be that small. It could be, you know, deeper, it could be map out on my whiteboard, the vision for the next five years. Whatever it is, it's just one thing, and you will do it this week. And what happens is, as we see week after week, when we say, What is the change I seek from what to what? What's it like when it's true? Back into reality, what's one thing I'll do this week? We end up getting clearer on that change. The Groundswell Effect: And what happens is as we see week after week, when we say, What is the change I seek from what to what? What's it like when it's true? Back into reality, what's one thing I'll do this week? We end up getting clearer on that change, noticing how it feels so we feel it in real life when we bump into elements of it, and doing things one after the other, after the other, that brings that that future closer into now. So that's the practice. I've been practicing it now, it's coming on to six years, so that's been a regular part of how I go about. Lorraine: Noticing how it feels so we feel it in real life when we bump into elements of it. And doing things one after the other, after the other, that brings that that future closer into now. So that's the practice. I've been practicing it now. It's coming on to six years. So that's been a regular part of how I go about my day. No boss, no funding, no KPIs. I need structure. Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: day. No boss, no funding, no KPIs. I need structure. Yeah. Lorraine: I The Groundswell Effect: I need some way to say, wait, how's this that hedge that I popped you know my mind through and Lorraine: need some way to say, wait, how's this that hedge that I pop, you know, my mind through and The Groundswell Effect: got to visit and and many other dreams I could say where we're we're living into a space where Lorraine: Got to visit and and many other dreams I could say where we're we're living into a space where in spite of the turbulence and the dangers and the violence and all the things, we have shifted economic norms so that it really is about looking after ourselves. I need structure and support. And this is my my kind of individual professional system level future intergenerational, The Groundswell Effect: In spite of the turbulence and the dangers and the violence and all the things, we have shifted economic norms so that it really is about looking after ourselves. I need structure and support. And this is my my kind of individual, professional, system level, future intergenerational. Lorraine: I guess you could say, meditation. The Groundswell Effect: I guess you could say meditation. Yeah. Lorraine: Yeah. That The Groundswell Effect: That allows me to keep going and and and guides me and reveals my next step. And so that's what the practice is built around that you joined as well. And it's been really fun. And and here we are in real time, the fifth cohort. So it's been over a year. So we're like, wow, that was that took some dreaming to bring that into place. launches next week. Yeah. Lorraine: allows me to keep going and and and guides me and reveals my next step. And so that's what the practice is built around that you joined as well. And it's been really fun. And and here we are in real time, the fifth cohort, so it's been over a year. I'm like, wow, that was that took some dreaming to bring that into place. launches next week. Yeah. Congratulations. The Groundswell Effect: Congratulations. Lorraine: Thank you. And thank you for helping make it real. The Groundswell Effect: Thank you. And thank you for helping make it real. Lorraine: Reflecting on this year, The Groundswell Effect: Reflecting on this year. what have you like learned Lorraine: what have you like learned The Groundswell Effect: about becoming a a world builder with others Yeah, Lorraine: Becoming a a world builder with others I love that question. The Groundswell Effect: I love that question. Lorraine: on the one hand, I kind of refute the like we all need to do this together. I actually don't agree with that. I don't think we all need to do anything. but I do think there's real benefit in some togetherness and community, especially when we're working on things that are heard. The Groundswell Effect: On the one hand, I refute the like we all need to do this together. I actually don't agree with that. I don't think we all need to do anything. but I do think there's real benefit in some togetherness and community, especially when we're working on things that are heard, partly because we'll learn from one another. I learn as much from practice changers as I hope you learn from me. Lorraine: partly 'cause we'll learn from one another. I learn as much from practice changers as I hope you learn from me. but mostly, I mean human nature, because when we say it out loud with other people who can hear, we stay accountable. And we see this in, you know, weight loss, we see it in addiction recovery, we see it in the places where we're trying to to level up or I would I feel of it more like level in, like level into what we're really here to do. The Groundswell Effect: But mostly, human nature, because when we say it out loud with other people who can hear, we stay accountable. Yeah. And we see this in, weight loss, we see it in addiction recovery, we see it in the places where we're trying to to level up, or I would I feel of it more like level in, like level into what we're really here to do. When I say, you know what, Ruth, this time next week Lorraine: When I say, you know what, Ruth, this time next week, I will be supporting another community of change makers who are ready to live into their system level holistic purpose. You hear me, and the next time I see you, you go, hey, how's it going with the community? Versus if it's just in my head and I'm like, yeah, there might be some people, and we just chitter chat at a surface level. You hearing me, I call it seeing and being seen. You see me, and I see you seeing me. The Groundswell Effect: I will be supporting another community of change makers who are ready to live into their system level holistic purpose. You hear me, and the next time I see you, you go, hey, how's it going with the community? Versus if it's just in my head and I'm like, yeah, there might be some people, and we just chitter chat at a surface level. You hearing me. I call it seeing and being seen. You see me, and I see you seeing me, and now there's a there's like a Lorraine: And now there's a there's like a cosmic lock in effect. So so I have seen and felt and heard coming back to me from feedback among the practice changers that that accountability not out of punishment, but out of like enabling, empowering, making it possible. That's been a huge validation. but the other thing that was a bit counterintuitive The Groundswell Effect: cosmic lock-in effect. So so I have seen and felt and heard coming back to me from feedback among the practice changers that that accountability not out of punishment, but out of like enabling, empowering, making it possible. That's been a huge validation. but the other thing that was a bit counterintuitive, I'd felt it myself and experienced it, but kind of needed to be reminded and I see practice changers experiencing it as well, is like Lorraine: I'd felt it myself and experienced it, but needed to be reminded, and I see practice changers experiencing it as well. Is like The Groundswell Effect: It it's the difference of what I call unicorns versus rainbows. So where am I going with this? We we might have a really ambitious change. Like I'm working on, you know, I'm working on everyone around the world recognizing whatever language they use that the economy is here to serve life, right? If business is being done, it is enabling life to thrive. That's a big shift from Lorraine: it's the difference of what I call unicorns versus rainbows. So where am I going with this? We we might have a really ambitious change. Like I'm working on, you know, I'm working on everyone around the world recognizing, whatever language they use, that the economy is here to serve life, right? If business is being done, it is enabling life to thrive. That's a big shift for. The Groundswell Effect: where we are now. So Lorraine: So I might bump into barriers as I go because I'm dropping into like, okay, well what's my job on that this week and how does that look and what can I do? The Groundswell Effect: I might bump into barriers as I go because I'm dropping into like, okay, well what's my job on that this week and how does that look and what can I do? Lorraine: There's a lot of wild and crazy ideas out there, some of them super ambitious and some of them not so ambitious. But often if we play some of the especially sustainability oriented ones out, they don't really make sense. The Groundswell Effect: There's a lot of wild and crazy ideas out there, some of them super ambitious, and some of them not so ambitious. But often if we play some of the especially sustainability-oriented ones out, they don't really make sense. When you play them out, I started to see that a lot in my my corporate sustainability work, especially around like climate, net zero, carbon reductions. If you not always, but if you follow the money and you follow the like accounting schemes and you say if this really played out to where they're going. Lorraine: And you play the I started to see that a lot in my my corporate sustainability work, especially around climate, net zero, carbon reductions. If you not always, but if you follow the money and you follow the accounting schemes and you say if this really played out to where they're going, from what I could see, and I like I spent twenty years developing my expertise in following that money and developing those disclosures, I can say it doesn't go well. If anything, it's like more harm and not even necessarily reduced emissions. Like it was really The Groundswell Effect: From what I could see, and I I spent 20 years developing my expertise in following that money and developing those disclosures, I can say it doesn't go well. If anything, it's like more harm and not even necessarily reduced emissions. Like it was really messy Lorraine: messy in there. So when I look at some of the things that I call unicorns in the sustainability or positive impact space, it's like on one level they seem really compelling, right? Unicorns are so cool. Little girls love them. The Groundswell Effect: in there. So when I look at some of the things that I call unicorns in the sustainability or positive impact space, it's like on one level they seem really compelling, right? Unicorns are so cool, little girls love them. Lorraine: In other ways, they don't really exist. So if you're hooking a lot of time, effort, money, commitment, branding, web presence, whatever it is, on a unicorn, notice that. Back the truck up, as you say. The Groundswell Effect: In other ways, they don't really exist. So if you're hooking a lot of time, effort, money, commitment, branding, web presence, whatever it is, on a unicorn, notice that. Back the truck up, as you say. Lorraine: And on the other hand, we've got rainbows. Rainbows are magic. They exist. by magic they really come from real things. I happen to think magic really does exist. Fantasy, unicorns doesn't, except in our minds. The Groundswell Effect: And on the other hand, we've got rainbows. Rainbows are magic, they exist. by magic I mean like they really come from real things. I happen to think magic really does exist. Fantasy unicorns doesn't, except in our minds. Lorraine: So what I've seen is a recognition in some cases, like, The Groundswell Effect: So what I've seen is a recognition in some cases, like, Lorraine: I thought I was working on magic, but I've been working on fantasy. And the pain of noticing that, the ego, the whoops, the like existential doubt. The Groundswell Effect: Working on magic, but I've been working on fantasy, and the pain of noticing that the ego, the yeah, whoops, the like existential doubt. Yeah, but then the kind of rebound of that is like, okay, how will I know? How can I discern? And this is so this is maybe the like the third piece I'll I'll leave you with. Here is Lorraine: But then the kind of rebound of that is like, okay, how will I know? How can I discern? And this is the so this is maybe the the third piece I'll I'll leave you with here is where I see real progress and real learning is people going, I have to understand things better than I do now. It's not just I'm not trying hard enough or I got burned out and I have to go, re up on my energy in Costa Rica. No. The Groundswell Effect: Where I see real progress and real learning is people going, I have to understand things better than I do now. It's not just like, I'm not trying hard enough or I got burned out and I have to go, you know, re up on my energy in Costa Rica. No, there's things I don't understand. I want to be part of a truly sustainable food system. Well, I better understand like what is the food like really what is the food system now? Not a reel I saw on Instagram or a documentary I saw, but like what are people eating here and now? What's happening? Lorraine: There's things I don't understand. I wanna be part of a truly sustainable food system. Well, I better understand like what is the food like really what is the food system now? Not a reel I saw on Instagram or a documentary I saw, but like what are people eating here and now? What's happening? And what would be truly sustainable? Why do I think that? Where am I getting that information? Who am I actually talking to? Back to the stakeholders who really know things. And then, what would The Groundswell Effect: And what would be truly sustainable? Why do I think that? Where am I getting that information? Who am I actually talking to? Back to the stakeholders who really know things. And then, what would Lorraine: my role be in making that true. So that discernment piece, which manifests in lots of ways, The Groundswell Effect: my role be in making that true? So that discernment piece, which manifests in lots of ways, Lorraine: I The Groundswell Effect: I think that's been one of the biggest learning is the the missing discernment time, the missing, like Lorraine: think that's been one of the biggest learning is the the missing discernment time, the missing like, what am I really doing? It's not just a cool idea. Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: What am I really doing? It's not just a cool idea. Yeah. There's some real nuts and bolts there. skilling up, Lorraine: There's some real nuts and bolts there. Like skilling up, you know? The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. Yeah. Not just dreaming. Dreaming and not just working hard. Lorraine: Yeah. Yeah. Not just dreaming. Yeah. Dreaming and not just working hard. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. Lorraine: Yeah. The Groundswell Effect: Like one of the most heartbreaking, but also like gap closable things I see is there's people working so hard. They're I've tried this, I've tried that, I put my time, you know, I'm so committed. And they're tired, they're angry, they're feeling very us and themy, and then when we Lorraine: one of the most heartbreaking but also gap closable things I see is there's people working so hard. They're like, I've tried this, I've tried that, I put my time, my you know, I'm so committed. And they're tired, they're angry, they're feeling very us and them-y. And then when we The Groundswell Effect: go into this discernment mode which I intentionally make as the last module of practice change because we gotta get our we gotta get a couple other skills in place first. When they go into that discernment mode it's like Lorraine: go into this discernment mode, which I intentionally make as the last module of practice change, because we gotta get our we gotta get a couple other skills in place first. When they go into that discernment mode, it's like, these are answerable questions. There are things I can go find out. And then the anger shifts to it kind of alchemizes into The Groundswell Effect: these are answerable questions they're things I can go find out and then the anger shifts to it kind of alchemizes into Lorraine: useful action. Maybe slower, maybe a lower bar, like maybe a less ambitious this is what's going to be done in 10 years. But what will be done is like real seeds, real foundation, like soil building. It takes time. You know, if you have to dump the chemicals on it to get the stuff to grow, maybe that's not real growth. The Groundswell Effect: useful action. Maybe slower. Maybe a lower bar. maybe a less ambitious this is what's gonna be done in ten years. Right. But what will be done is real seeds, real found soil building. It takes time. if you have to dump the chemicals on it to get the stuff to grow, maybe that's not real growth. Lorraine: Soil building, it takes. The Groundswell Effect: Soil building it takes years in most growing regions that we're around. It can take decades. But you do the stuff that needs to make it happen now. Lorraine: Years in most growing regions that we're around, it can take decades. But you do the stuff that needs to make it happen now. Yeah. And that's what you get and it's yeah, it slows you down, but it's more fun. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. And that's what you get and it's yeah, it slows you down. Yeah. It's more fun. Lorraine: It's like people come with the conviction and you help them with the clarity The Groundswell Effect: It's like people come with the conviction and you help them with the clarity Lorraine: Yeah, and conviction is a fun word because it's often lurking in there is a sense of victimhood, is a sense of anger and constraint. The Groundswell Effect: and conviction is a fun word because it's often l lurking in there is a sense of victimhood. There's a sense of anger and constraint. Lorraine: Do you think this is like you said before, The Groundswell Effect: Do you think this is like you said before Lorraine: most people won't see the system. They don't care to, they can't, doesn't whatever, doesn't matter. It's only a few that do. And so being in that pile of few The Groundswell Effect: Most people won't see the system. They don't care to, they can't. Doesn't whatever, doesn't matter. And it's only a few that do. And so being in that pile of few, do you think inherently kinda comes with victimhood or like Lorraine: Do you think inherently comes with victimhood or maybe The Groundswell Effect: Why me? I mean I feel a deep humility. Like I really don't think we're that special at the end of the day. and I don't have the answer. Like I don't have a kinda Lorraine: I mean I feel a deep humility. Like I really don't think we're that special at the end of the day. and I don't have the answer. Like I don't have a kinda Guru desire. come to me, I'll give you the answers. The Groundswell Effect: guru desire. Like come to me, I'll give you the answers. Lorraine: In fact, part of why I came to the practice change method for myself, and I'm glad to teach it to others, is because it kind of unhooks you. So where I was before that, was very locked into the climate change The Groundswell Effect: In fact, part of why I came to the practice change method for myself and am glad to teach it to others is because it kind of unhooks you. So where I was before that, was very locked into the climate change. Lorraine: activist world. I was not an activist, but it was a big part of the people that I hung with. And it never, it never jived for me. The Groundswell Effect: activist world. I was not an activist, but it was a big part of the people that I hung with. And it never it never jived for me. Lorraine: I don't know that there's a why me. I the the thing that that worries me about conviction is if I think I already have the answer and we'd be better off if you just did what I think. The Groundswell Effect: I don't know that there's a why me. I the the thing that that worries me about conviction is if I think I already have the answer and we'd be better off if you just did what I think. Lorraine: If The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. If you just got it, if I could just get through to you. Lorraine: you just got it, if I could just get through to you. Yeah. I The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. I think that I know you're wrong, I'm right, and let me just fix you. Lorraine: think that kinda like I know you're wrong, I'm right, and let me just fix you. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. I think that's a bit how business functions. Lorraine: I think that's a bit how business functions. And I don't want to replicate that pattern of here, I built the box, jam yourself into it. No, life is very disparate and distributed. And some things make, we've got within view here, we've got several different life forms, and they they all function differently as they should. So what I The Groundswell Effect: And I don't want to replicate that pattern of like, here, I built the box, jam yourself into it. You know, life is very disparate and distributed. And some things make, you know, we've got within View here, we've got several different life forms, and they they all function differently. A as they should. So what I Lorraine: prefer is to find like what unlocks me. The Groundswell Effect: prefer is to find what unlocks me to be in service of life. It's gonna be different than what unlocks you and how you can serve will be different. Lorraine: To be in service of life. It's gonna be different than what unlocks you. And how you can serve will be different. So the difference, I'll give a super shorthand. Conviction to me is like constrained victimhood. If these people could just, you know, if only they would. The flip of that is motivation. And motivation isn't just like, I'm so cheerful, I'm so energized. You might not even be cheerful, you may be exhausted, but your motivation allows you to move. You can keep going. The Groundswell Effect: So the difference let I'll give a super short hint. Conviction to me is like constrained victimhood. If these people could just, you know, if only they would. The flip of that is motivation. And motivation isn't just like, I'm so cheerful, I'm so energized. You might not even be cheerful, you may be exhausted, but your motivation allows you to move. You can keep going. You can take steps. And so I don't want to be convicted. Lorraine: You can take steps. And so I don't want to be convicted. I want to be motivated. I don't want to be constrained and victimized. I want to be moving and flowing and letting energy move through me. It just feels better. The Groundswell Effect: I want to be motivated. I don't want to be constrained and victimized. I want to be moving and flowing and letting energy move through me. It just feels better. Lorraine: you're such an interesting contrast of things that I think people don't think can live together well. Like you are a I'm gonna mess up the pronunciation, but you're a logistician. The Groundswell Effect: you're such an interesting contrast of things that I think people don't think can live together well. Like you are a I'm gonna mess up the pronunciation, but you're a logistician. you have a very well thought through if this then that and seeing the system as it works and playing forward actions. Lorraine: you have a very well thought through if this then that and seeing the system as it works and playing forward actions. The Groundswell Effect: Thank you. Lorraine: Thank you. And at the same time, you live, you know, guided by dreams and in a world of magic. The Groundswell Effect: And at the same time you live, you know, guided by dreams and in a world of magic. Lorraine: And I think that's a it's a really interesting pairing to create a new paradigm. The Groundswell Effect: And I think that's a it's a really interesting pairing to create a new paradigm. Thank you. Lorraine: Thank you. so I'm gonna I'm gonna suggest we leave it there because you and I could talk forever. The Groundswell Effect: so I'm gonna I'm gonna suggest we leave it there because you and I could talk forever. Lorraine: I know, The Groundswell Effect: I know, right? And I'm so thankful and grateful for this conversation. Lorraine: And I'm so thankful and grateful for this conversation. Thank you. The Groundswell Effect: Thank you. Lorraine: Can I share a parting thought? Please. The Groundswell Effect: Can I share a parting thought? Please. Lorraine: And The Groundswell Effect: And and edit this out if it's too dark a thought. But I I like I do think we're up against it. I don't think we are in a simple place. And so part of why I embrace motivation. Lorraine: and edit this out if it's too dark a thought. But I I like I do think we're up against it. I don't think we are in a simple place. And so part of why I embrace motivation is because The Groundswell Effect: Is because even Lorraine: even in the difficulty, even in the existentially threatening, intergenerationally compounding legacies of land theft slavery and oppression, we can dream forward. We can see alternative ways of existing. And so I I hold that thread. The Groundswell Effect: in the difficulty, even in the existentially threatening, intergenerationally compounding legacies of land theft slavery and oppression, we can dream forward. We can see alternative ways of existing. And so I I hold that thread. Lorraine: I and I, as you know, I have a little playbook for motivation to keep going. Not because like it's gonna be great, everyone. The Groundswell Effect: I and I as I have a little playbook for motivation to keep going. Not because like it's gonna be great, everyone, but because it's way more fun to keep going and to live into the possible than to be ground down by what's not working now. So I just I want to just emphasize I don't hold a kind of Pollyanna optimism. Lorraine: but because it's way more fun to keep going and to live into the possible than to be ground down by what's not working now. So I just I wanna just emphasize I don't hold a kind of Pollyanna optimism. The Groundswell Effect: And Lorraine: And I The Groundswell Effect: I love the journey of going forward anyway. Lorraine: love the journey of going forward anyway. The Groundswell Effect: I can't I can't I can't add any words to that. That Lorraine: I can't get to add any words to that but The Groundswell Effect: summary is is absolutely beautiful. Thank you. Lorraine: Thank you. The Groundswell Effect: and I hope that I can wish you well along the journey. Lorraine: and I hope that I can wish you well along the journey. The Groundswell Effect: Yeah. Well you're right there beside me. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, thanks, Ruth. Lorraine: Yeah, well you're right there beside me. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, thanks, Ruth. I just realized at the end when you said ground swell, I like, yeah, that's that's what you're doing. I I've seen the name so many times. It hadn't like I hadn't felt the ground go bl The Groundswell Effect: I just realized at the end when you said ground swell, I was like, yeah, that's that's what you're doing. I I've seen the name so many times. It hadn't like yeah I hadn't felt the ground go boom