Latest / Growth After Headcount / Unicorn To €100M: More Per Rep, Not More Reps — Molo Lorenz (Moss) #010
Transcript
- Haris: Hey Malo, welcome to Grove after Headcount. How are you doing today? I'm I'm pretty good. Having a busy day, busy week, being here in in Amsterdam to be with the team. It's always exciting, right? Yeah. A lot of things to do. One of my colleagues in my team is gonna be going on sabbatical starting later this week. So a little bit of rap or a little bit of handover, but but excited to talk to you. Nice. Yeah, thank you for the opportunity and also inviting me here over. We have recorded. In-Person: Hey Malo, welcome to Grove after Headcount. How are you doing today? I'm I'm pretty good. Having a busy day, busy week, being here in in Amsterdam to be with the team. It's always exciting, right? Yeah. A lot of things to do. One of my colleagues in my team is gonna be going on sabbatical starting later this week. So a little bit of rap or a little bit of handover, but but excited to talk to you. Nice. Yeah, thank you for the opportunity and also inviting me here over. We have recorded. Haris: At 6 p.m. after a busy work day. But before we go further up, where's actually Molo coming from? It's a shortcut, right? Yeah, it is. So it's coming from while I was studying in Vienna doing my my my my bachelor. in our Friends Circle there were quite a lot of Moritzes. And we had this thing that obviously it's a little bit hard to always just say I'm gonna meet Moritz, but there are more of us. So we we were just cutting it short in terms of In-Person: At 6 p.m. after a busy work day. But before we go further up, where's actually Molo coming from? It's a shortcut, right? Yeah, it is. So it's coming from while I was studying in Vienna doing my my my my bachelor. in our Friends Circle there were quite a lot of Moritzes. And we had this thing that obviously it's a little bit hard to always just say I'm gonna meet Moritz, but there are more of us. So we we were just cutting it short in terms of Haris: Molo for Moritz Lorenz, Moya for Moritz Janssen and some other ones. And this stick to me also when I was starting working in the whole startup and venture environment. And then it's now part of my identity, I would say. Yeah, yeah, I think it has a really good ring to it. Like I like it a lot. So yeah, we are here at Moss. Maybe tell me about Moss and what does a director of Go to Market engineering them do at Moss? Sure. In-Person: Molo for Moritz Lorenz, Moya for Moritz Janssen and some other ones. And this stick to me also when I was starting working in the whole startup and venture environment. And then it's now part of my identity, I would say. Yeah, yeah, I think it has a really good ring to it. Like I like it a lot. So yeah, we are here at Moss. Maybe tell me about Moss and what does a director of Go to Market engineering them do at Moss? Sure. Haris: So Moss, for everybody who doesn't know it, is a is a finance platform, I would say. We we started initially with building a credit card solution for venture veg companies in the really, really initial initial scope and then expanded over spend management to like going into a holistic spend management platform and and finance platform where businesses of any size can can solve all of this. what does a directive go to market engineering? In-Person: So Moss, for everybody who doesn't know it, is a is a finance platform, I would say. We we started initially with building a credit card solution for venture veg companies in the really, really initial initial scope and then expanded over spend management to like going into a holistic spend management platform and and finance platform where businesses of any size can can solve all of this. what does a directive go to market engineering? Haris: do I would say anything related to ensuring that we do generate more revenue ultimately right it is it is coming from a clear focus on applying AI, applying automations to be smart in a way of how we handle incoming traffic but also general traffic and that's more or less what me and my team are doing every day to ensure that there is pipeline in the future and ideally also the pipeline is smarter. Yeah. And if you think about go to market engineering In-Person: do I would say anything related to ensuring that we do generate more revenue ultimately right it is it is coming from a clear focus on applying AI, applying automations to be smart in a way of how we handle incoming traffic but also general traffic and that's more or less what me and my team are doing every day to ensure that there is pipeline in the future and ideally also the pipeline is smarter. Yeah. And if you think about go to market engineering Haris: The term was invented by Clay officially, right? And so it's three, four years old. And we are really talking about something new. It there was there was some lead routing before and something. So maybe how do you define go-to-market engineering for yourself? Yeah. so let's perhaps go to Moss. I do think that at Moss, if you think about the whole organization, right? We do have a revenue operations team which is also not In-Person: The term was invented by Clay officially, right? And so it's three, four years old. And we are really talking about something new. It there was there was some lead routing before and something. So maybe how do you define go-to-market engineering for yourself? Yeah. so let's perhaps go to Moss. I do think that at Moss, if you think about the whole organization, right? We do have a revenue operations team which is also not Haris: A too old term, like being in RevOps. and then we're having the revenue operations team. Now I'm leaving go-to-market engineering out and then gonna edit, split into the the go-to-market ops people, so the the people who are working with the dedicated commercial teams, then the systems teams, which is more or less ensuring that systems are interconnected, and then the data team, which is like ensuring the data is accurate and we can use data in a in a way, right? And go-to-market engine. In-Person: A too old term, like being in RevOps. and then we're having the revenue operations team. Now I'm leaving go-to-market engineering out and then gonna edit, split into the the go-to-market ops people, so the the people who are working with the dedicated commercial teams, then the systems teams, which is more or less ensuring that systems are interconnected, and then the data team, which is like ensuring the data is accurate and we can use data in a in a way, right? And go-to-market engine. Haris: Engineering is then adding into it. It's something which is quite closely collaborating with all three teams and all other commercial functions, but more ensuring that we do have a really clear understanding of where our revenue should be coming from in the future by creating a revenue architecture, including certain tools and the way we're using those tools, then in combination with systems, for example, which is more ensuring that the interconnection of those tools and the way those tools are built in their In-Person: Engineering is then adding into it. It's something which is quite closely collaborating with all three teams and all other commercial functions, but more ensuring that we do have a really clear understanding of where our revenue should be coming from in the future by creating a revenue architecture, including certain tools and the way we're using those tools, then in combination with systems, for example, which is more ensuring that the interconnection of those tools and the way those tools are built in their Haris: Fundament is properly done. Okay. And one term I haven't heard at all is what about AI? Yeah, well, well, I obviously AI is a huge chunk of this, right? I'm always a little bit like using AI as a term is quite easy because you can always just apply it and and then you're gonna chime in some agents if you want, and then everybody's gonna look really excited. But I would think it's even it's even more work to properly assess where. In-Person: Fundament is properly done. Okay. And one term I haven't heard at all is what about AI? Yeah, well, well, I obviously AI is a huge chunk of this, right? I'm always a little bit like using AI as a term is quite easy because you can always just apply it and and then you're gonna chime in some agents if you want, and then everybody's gonna look really excited. But I would think it's even it's even more work to properly assess where. Haris: Exactly what kind of AI you need to you need to use, right? I do think that automation in a in a way is already when implying having some some AI as steps, it's already a huge step change from how all of this was done before. And and and therefore I'm more into this domain where I'm saying that a lot of these things are for me automations, even though it's in in reality applying AI at certain steps or for the whole piece. In-Person: Exactly what kind of AI you need to you need to use, right? I do think that automation in a in a way is already when implying having some some AI as steps, it's already a huge step change from how all of this was done before. And and and therefore I'm more into this domain where I'm saying that a lot of these things are for me automations, even though it's in in reality applying AI at certain steps or for the whole piece. Haris: Exactly. I think also like automation is one form of a very simple AI. And I think now many people when they hear AI they think of generative AI models and maybe more stuff like that. So I think yeah. It's more nuanced as that as well, right? And how big is the go-to-market engineering team? It's it's four. Yeah. it's it's obviously like I I would say it's In-Person: Exactly. I think also like automation is one form of a very simple AI. And I think now many people when they hear AI they think of generative AI models and maybe more stuff like that. So I think yeah. It's more nuanced as that as well, right? And how big is the go-to-market engineering team? It's it's four. Yeah. it's it's obviously like I I would say it's Haris: Yeah, I'm I'm not even sure if it's relatively big or small because there's not too much comparison, right? Because there are not too many organizations which are having this function built out with a with a team and not just perhaps one person who is who's split out from something. but it's it's a team which obviously makes sense to grow. and when we see the need to to increase headcount, I do believe and that's it adds quite nicely to I believe your belief and also the name of the the the podcast, right? I was always looking at it more from In-Person: Yeah, I'm I'm not even sure if it's relatively big or small because there's not too much comparison, right? Because there are not too many organizations which are having this function built out with a with a team and not just perhaps one person who is who's split out from something. but it's it's a team which obviously makes sense to grow. and when we see the need to to increase headcount, I do believe and that's it adds quite nicely to I believe your belief and also the name of the the the podcast, right? I was always looking at it more from Haris: Not increasing headcount if not needed, but more looking into how can we be more efficient in the work we're doing ourselves, but also in the output we generate for others. Yeah, no, yeah, no, I think in that point, maybe a good point to congratulate, congratulate some unicorn status. Thank you. And now I think what was also disclose you are at 70 million era, and now the goal is getting to the 100th magical mark. In-Person: Not increasing headcount if not needed, but more looking into how can we be more efficient in the work we're doing ourselves, but also in the output we generate for others. Yeah, no, yeah, no, I think in that point, maybe a good point to congratulate, congratulate some unicorn status. Thank you. And now I think what was also disclose you are at 70 million era, and now the goal is getting to the 100th magical mark. Haris: And then the question is how much headcount do you plan to add? In-Person: And then the question is how much headcount do you plan to add? Haris: obviously I'm I'm not the I'm not the CEO, right? So I I don't I don't I can't tell you ultimately what exactly the plan is here. But and plans can be changing, right? There are always cases, but what I know is that we're not planning to reach this 100 million ARR by adding headcount, but by being more efficient and more effective on on each domain. This is something we already did in the in the past twelve to to eight. In-Person: obviously I'm I'm not the I'm not the CEO, right? So I I don't I don't I can't tell you ultimately what exactly the plan is here. But and plans can be changing, right? There are always cases, but what I know is that we're not planning to reach this 100 million ARR by adding headcount, but by being more efficient and more effective on on each domain. This is something we already did in the in the past twelve to to eight. Haris: eighteen In-Person: eighteen Haris: to twenty four months, right? We were not going into this domain of just saying we can just achieve this by increasing more people working on something, but more looking into how can we make the overall funnel and the value extraction of this way more efficient. So therefore I'm I would say that there is gonna be slight headcount growth, but it's it's not gonna be something where people are seeing us just hiring of the cost of hiring. But most likely we are In-Person: to twenty four months, right? We were not going into this domain of just saying we can just achieve this by increasing more people working on something, but more looking into how can we make the overall funnel and the value extraction of this way more efficient. So therefore I'm I would say that there is gonna be slight headcount growth, but it's it's not gonna be something where people are seeing us just hiring of the cost of hiring. But most likely we are Haris: Gonna be increasing by adding more AI, by adding more automations, the output of each rep, which is revenue generating, and then obviously also increasing the product of view for others. In-Person: Gonna be increasing by adding more AI, by adding more automations, the output of each rep, which is revenue generating, and then obviously also increasing the product of view for others. Haris: No, it resonates a lot and it's like a different way of growing a business nowadays compared to the time of growth at all costs. And I think Morse is was founded in still in the late period of that, 2019. When was it? Yeah, it was 2019 and I'm fully aware of this kind of revenue growth, right? before In-Person: No, it resonates a lot and it's like a different way of growing a business nowadays compared to the time of growth at all costs. And I think Morse is was founded in still in the late period of that, 2019. When was it? Yeah, it was 2019 and I'm fully aware of this kind of revenue growth, right? before Haris: starting MOS back then, me and some other people of the founding team were at another venture. In between we had something different, but there it was a way more we generated revenue by adding headcount and and we had this more like a sales-like TA machine which was hiring a lot of people to because our revenue growths were closely connected to headcount, and this is now totally different due to the time, but also due to the way we want to In-Person: starting MOS back then, me and some other people of the founding team were at another venture. In between we had something different, but there it was a way more we generated revenue by adding headcount and and we had this more like a sales-like TA machine which was hiring a lot of people to because our revenue growths were closely connected to headcount, and this is now totally different due to the time, but also due to the way we want to Haris: build a company ultimately. And initially you also raised a lot. And with those founding rights, what was back then the growth plan? Because it was also just before the fintech winter, if I'm not wrong. Yeah, so we we started the company in 2019. We raised a pretty significant pre-seed and seed round, end of 2019, beginning of 2020. In-Person: build a company ultimately. And initially you also raised a lot. And with those founding rights, what was back then the growth plan? Because it was also just before the fintech winter, if I'm not wrong. Yeah, so we we started the company in 2019. We raised a pretty significant pre-seed and seed round, end of 2019, beginning of 2020. Then we were always having the plan to Haris: Then we were always having the plan to Like it obviously changed a little bit, right? But we never had the plan to to to invest those funds just heavily into people, but more into the the tech behind it, into the infrastructure, into obviously also the people in terms of the bar we wanted to meet with those, but not into like a pure headcount growth to to generate revenue. Then in twenty twenty-one and twenty twenty two, right, before this this fintech winter you are you're you're referring to, we we In-Person: Like it obviously changed a little bit, right? But we never had the plan to to to invest those funds just heavily into people, but more into the the tech behind it, into the infrastructure, into obviously also the people in terms of the bar we wanted to meet with those, but not into like a pure headcount growth to to generate revenue. Then in twenty twenty-one and twenty twenty two, right, before this this fintech winter you are you're you're referring to, we we Haris: Raised all of our like let's call it bigger rounds, right? With a total of of funding raised of around around I can't even tell it to you exactly, but 150 to 170 million, I would say, like a total. And then obviously this whole period of of funding decrease happened, which due to us having been in the in the lucky situation to have had raised quite a lot of amount of In-Person: Raised all of our like let's call it bigger rounds, right? With a total of of funding raised of around around I can't even tell it to you exactly, but 150 to 170 million, I would say, like a total. And then obviously this whole period of of funding decrease happened, which due to us having been in the in the lucky situation to have had raised quite a lot of amount of Haris: funds, we didn't have to change too much in the way we were doing our business, besides obviously revisiting a little bit. What exactly do we need to do to ensure that no matter how long this time period is not going to be happening, we're still gonna be able to build a a sustainable but also growing company at the end. Yeah. So yeah you had the the timing was a good benefit, right? So it was like In-Person: funds, we didn't have to change too much in the way we were doing our business, besides obviously revisiting a little bit. What exactly do we need to do to ensure that no matter how long this time period is not going to be happening, we're still gonna be able to build a a sustainable but also growing company at the end. Yeah. So yeah you had the the timing was a good benefit, right? So it was like Haris: The path forward was pretty much more safer. Did you still have to go to some form of restructuring or? Yeah, we we we were. we we had to do and we did this in in two In-Person: The path forward was pretty much more safer. Did you still have to go to some form of restructuring or? Yeah, we we we were. we we had to do and we did this in in two Haris: back then we did this obviously to protect ultimately the company and therefore also everybody employed and this was like a pretty hard exercise as a company to also ensure that that everybody who is part of MOS and continuously part of Moss is also gonna be living and working with with a clear a clear path and a clear goal right In-Person: back then we did this obviously to protect ultimately the company and therefore also everybody employed and this was like a pretty hard exercise as a company to also ensure that that everybody who is part of MOS and continuously part of Moss is also gonna be living and working with with a clear a clear path and a clear goal right Haris: in mind and not being in fear to have this happening more often, which was unfortunately the case for a lot of companies which were struggling way more on this. and for us it was for sure a huge benefit that we had raised before funds which were significant enough to be in this situation to to do this and to do this also in a structured way at the end. Yeah yeah and I think after that we slowly entering the time where GPT got released the big LLM In-Person: in mind and not being in fear to have this happening more often, which was unfortunately the case for a lot of companies which were struggling way more on this. and for us it was for sure a huge benefit that we had raised before funds which were significant enough to be in this situation to to do this and to do this also in a structured way at the end. Yeah yeah and I think after that we slowly entering the time where GPT got released the big LLM Haris: More AI tools got released. And like, how did you initially approach that? Like the new technology was there some resistance or waiting it out like in Germany is often very common. Let's wait and see how this plays out. Or did you went all in from the beginning? So I In-Person: More AI tools got released. And like, how did you initially approach that? Like the new technology? Was there some resistance or waiting it out? Like in Germany is often very common. Let's wait and see how this plays out. Or did you went all in from the beginning? So I Haris: It obviously it's a stage thing, right? Because like if I would now go thro through our tool stack together with you, you would see that there are quite a lot of different tools we're using for different purposes, and this evolved over time. So we we had initially a team, and this is still early MOS times, which was called sales intelligence. Sales intelligence was in in reality a team of interns or working students which were In-Person: It obviously it's a stage thing, right? Because like if I would now go thro through our tool stack together with you, you would see that there are quite a lot of different tools we're using for different purposes, and this evolved over time. So we we had initially a team, and this is still early MOS times, which was called sales intelligence. Sales intelligence was in in reality a team of interns or working students which were Haris: Responsible for the enrichment of accounts to prepare those for the BDRs and SDRs to be able to reach out to those properly, and also later on, then the AEs having enough data about those accounts for us to be able to score, but also to properly reach out. So, what we did over time, and this was especially when I took over this team back in. In-Person: Responsible for the enrichment of accounts to prepare those for the BDRs and SDRs to be able to reach out to those properly, and also later on, then the AEs having enough data about those accounts for us to be able to score, but also to properly reach out. So, what we did over time, and this was especially when I took over this team back in. Haris: 2022, I would say. this was a time where we were back then saying, Hey, how can we ensure that we don't need headcon to do this? But we can automatically do all of these things in a in a structured way. And this was then the initial phase where we were looking at proper lead enrichment, at proper lead scoring without needing to add this, but to use tools where we then evolved into the tool stack we're having right now. Okay, interesting. So basically the working students where In-Person: 2022, I would say. this was a time where we were back then saying, Hey, how can we ensure that we don't need headcon to do this? But we can automatically do all of these things in a in a structured way. And this was then the initial phase where we were looking at proper lead enrichment, at proper lead scoring without needing to add this, but to use tools where we then evolved into the tool stack we're having right now. Okay, interesting. So basically the working students where Haris: The first victims of AI in a way. They were. And it came a little bit from a time period where when we were working at a venture capital fund, right, and we were doing pre seed investment, we were having the huge need to find potential investments way earlier than everybody else in the market. So therefore, to build up a work stream where we also had people who were screening those potential investments. In-Person: The first victims of AI in a way. They were. And it came a little bit from a time period where when we were working at a venture capital fund, right, and we were doing pre seed investment, we were having the huge need to find potential investments way earlier than everybody else in the market. So therefore, to build up a work stream where we also had people who were screening those potential investments. Haris: Investment In-Person: Investment Haris: opportunities by looking at in a semi-autod automated way to look at people who were changing their job titles on LinkedIn and having a certain profile, and then like us assessing this if this could be an investment opportunity and somebody to reach out to, right? And this we obviously when starting MOS and when like starting with also assessing who do we want to go after and In-Person: opportunities by looking at in a semi-autod automated way to look at people who were changing their job titles on LinkedIn and having a certain profile, and then like us assessing this if this could be an investment opportunity and somebody to reach out to, right? And this we obviously when starting MOS and when like starting with also assessing who do we want to go after and Haris: And how do we do this in such a structured manner that we can do this also on scale? we back then, right, because all of this AI automation enrichment was not the the same as it is nowadays. We were back then then saying, Okay, well, this is the best way to do it, and later on, I said that I and this was when I took it over. I said that I want to revisit it because I don't believe that this is something sustainable and it's also not scalable at the end. And then we we looked into ways to do this, which In-Person: And how do we do this in such a structured manner that we can do this also on scale? we back then, right, because all of this AI automation enrichment was not the the same as it is nowadays. We were back then then saying, Okay, well, this is the best way to do it, and later on, I said that I and this was when I took it over. I said that I want to revisit it because I don't believe that this is something sustainable and it's also not scalable at the end. And then we we looked into ways to do this, which Haris: Which was starting with a with the lead, the initial lead enrichment, and then moving along to all other parts of this also. Yeah, I think the elite enrichment use case is one of the most popular one and one of the most value adding. Like I have been myself a BDR in a sales and doing all of this account research, like one third of my weekly time was spent on account research and riching list myself. So very super powerful use case. In-Person: Which was starting with a with the lead, the initial lead enrichment, and then moving along to all other parts of this also. Yeah, I think the elite enrichment use case is one of the most popular one and one of the most value adding. Like I have been myself a BDR in a sales and doing all of this account research, like one third of my weekly time was spent on account research and riching list myself. So very super powerful use case. Haris: And I know you guys have a very strong data team and a big data infrastructure. Maybe if you can tell something about building up the data infrastructure and why you see it as so important. Yeah. And In-Person: And I know you guys have a very strong data team and a big data infrastructure. Maybe if you can tell something about building up the data infrastructure and why you see it as so important. Yeah. And Haris: Like t tell me a little bit more which part of the data infrastructure you want to talk about, and then I can go into this. yeah, what is data lake? The data lake and all the data that is accessible most likely than for many AI use cases. Yeah. So what we did from the from the get-go is we we said that like obviously we we're using as our CRM, so the single source of truth, I would now call it Salesforce. And then we said that due to us having so many different ingestion points, so many different tools we're using and tools. In-Person: Like t tell me a little bit more which part of the data infrastructure you want to talk about, and then I can go into this. yeah, what is data lake? The data lake and all the data that is accessible most likely than for many AI use cases. Yeah. So what we did from the from the get-go is we we said that like obviously we we're using as our CRM, so the single source of truth, I would now call it Salesforce. And then we said that due to us having so many different ingestion points, so many different tools we're using and tools. to like like ingest data points and now a lot of different ways and layers you can look at right we said that we're gonna be building like a data infrastructure like a data Haris: to like like ingest data points and now a lot of different ways and layers you can look at right we said that we're gonna be building like a data infrastructure like a data like a data table, I would now call it, where all of these different data ingestion points are merged together and then we can like work on what we want to push into Salesforce to not overload the CRM and not overload the data we we're gonna be showing there. So this was something we we we started building before me taking over this team, but me being involved in it still and us having this build in a way that we can obviously manipulate in In-Person: like a data table, I would now call it, where all of these different data ingestion points are merged together and then we can like work on what we want to push into Salesforce to not overload the CRM and not overload the data we we're gonna be showing there. So this was something we we we started building before me taking over this team, but me being involved in it still and us having this build in a way that we can obviously manipulate in Haris: In a positive way, the data we want to then use for later outreach or for later scoring and assessment of all of this. Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah, I think it's super important because often many companies end up with not investing in a data lake and then just relying on a CRM, and you eventually will run into limitation if you only rely on I I do agree, and I I think that that it's a lot about the combination of those two, right? So, what we what we're doing, for example. In-Person: In a positive way, the data we want to then use for later outreach or for later scoring and assessment of all of this. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I think it's super important because often many companies end up with not investing in a data lake and then just relying on a CRM, and you eventually will run into limitation if you only rely on I I do agree, and I I think that that it's a lot about the combination of those two, right? So, what we what we're doing, for example. Haris: Is that we do believe that in this data lake, you how you call it, right? We do have all of the initial data we are going to be pushing in there to first ensure that the data we push into this CRM is going to be then accurate enough that we can work with it, right? What we are also doing is that we still treat our CRM with a lot of like a lot of cautiousness so that we also don't have too much data changing there or adding there, which shouldn't. In-Person: Is that we do believe that in this data lake, you how you call it, right? We do have all of the initial data we are going to be pushing in there to first ensure that the data we push into this CRM is going to be then accurate enough that we can work with it, right? What we are also doing is that we still treat our CRM with a lot of like a lot of cautiousness so that we also don't have too much data changing there or adding there, which shouldn't. Haris: be changed at the end. So this is something where on two domains we always really looked into having this properly built for scale because our belief is that else you can't properly use agents, you can't properly use automations, you can't properly have humans read data and use it, if you're not gonna be ensuring that this is like interconnected and ensuring that all of this is then also properly communicating to each other. No, no definite. In-Person: be changed at the end. So this is something where on two domains we always really looked into having this properly built for scale because our belief is that else you can't properly use agents, you can't properly use automations, you can't properly have humans read data and use it, if you're not gonna be ensuring that this is like interconnected and ensuring that all of this is then also properly communicating to each other. No, no definite. Haris: And it's still maybe coming moving more towards the agent side. Is there something you would say, Okay, I I will never let agents do this? In-Person: And it's still maybe coming moving more towards the agent side. Is there something you would say, Okay, I I will never let agents do this? Haris: Certain parts of it we we're letting agents do, right? So for example, we do have let's now stick to the lead and the outreach piece, right? We do have like agents run waterfall-esque enrichment services and contact sourcing. So whenever we do assign an account to to a BDR or an SDR to reach out here, especially the BDR, we do run a waterfall where we try to find as many relevant contacts as possible by having In-Person: Certain parts of it we we're letting agents do, right? So for example, we do have let's now stick to the lead and the outreach piece, right? We do have like agents run waterfall-esque enrichment services and contact sourcing. So whenever we do assign an account to to a BDR or an SDR to reach out here, especially the BDR, we do run a waterfall where we try to find as many relevant contacts as possible by having Haris: A high standard on the relevancy. So this is something where I'm I'm having agents do it because I don't believe that, like for sure, a part of it is also like a deterministic flow where you do define certain job titles you do believe are converting best. But another piece of it is also to describe an agent on scale, what kind of personas you're searching for, and then you can ensure that what you are not capturing with a waterfall, you're still going to be capturing with the agent ultimately. Because sometimes In-Person: A high standard on the relevancy. So this is something where I'm I'm having agents do it because I don't believe that, like for sure, a part of it is also like a deterministic flow where you do define certain job titles you do believe are converting best. But another piece of it is also to describe an agent on scale, what kind of personas you're searching for, and then you can ensure that what you are not capturing with a waterfall, you're still going to be capturing with the agent ultimately. Because sometimes Haris: there are certain changes in in titles right in but in reality it's it's the same persona you're searching for and what I want to do is I want to decrease and everybody else who's working with me decrease time spent of a of a rep of a person on non-sales non-revenue generating activities and increase their potential time to be spent with a with a prospect in this in this case. Do you have concrete KPIs for that? For for the time spent? In-Person: there are certain changes in in titles right in but in reality it's it's the same persona you're searching for and what I want to do is I want to decrease and everybody else who's working with me decrease time spent of a of a rep of a person on non-sales non-revenue generating activities and increase their potential time to be spent with a with a prospect in this in this case. Do you have concrete KPIs for that? For for the time spent? Haris: Yeah, we do we do measure this. So we do measure like we do measure first of all the decrease of manual time by the by the automated steps and also the the the the total number of in this example again contacts picked up and and worked on and converted and there we then evaluate how well our our agent or our waterfall enrichment service is working and we evaluate how to increase the the quality there. In-Person: Yeah, we do we do measure this. So we do measure like we do measure first of all the decrease of manual time by the by the automated steps and also the the the the total number of in this example again contacts picked up and and worked on and converted and there we then evaluate how well our our agent or our waterfall enrichment service is working and we evaluate how to increase the the quality there. Haris: can you also then measure or see have data that how much the productivity of the individual reps increase? Yeah, we we we can, I'm always a little bit In-Person: can you also then measure or see have data that how much the productivity of the individual reps increase? Yeah, we we we can, I'm always a little bit Haris: I'm always a little bit cautious on this one because obviously productivity of rep, like and when we're now just talking about the activity productivity, right, is always a little bit hard because it has so many factors, especially in a in a motion like ours. So I can I'm having a In-Person: I'm always a little bit cautious on this one because obviously productivity of rep, like and when we're now just talking about the activity productivity, right, is always a little bit hard because it has so many factors, especially in a in a motion like ours. So I can I'm having a Haris: Like a variety of different lead inflows. We are then you we are then auto-assigning, which can be like a regular assignment where we do have more scoring-based mechanism, then we do have certain signals we do capture and then assign to reps and certain other ways, right? And there for all of them, obviously my expectation and our expectation as a company is a little bit different. So therefore, we do measure the time spent in revenue generating utilities. In-Person: Like a variety of different lead inflows. We are then you we are then auto-assigning, which can be like a regular assignment where we do have more scoring-based mechanism, then we do have certain signals we do capture and then assign to reps and certain other ways, right? And there for all of them, obviously my expectation and our expectation as a company is a little bit different. So therefore, we do measure the time spent in revenue generating utilities. Haris: But it's not a key KPI, which is more for those reps, obviously, at the end, like revenue generated, SQLs created, like all of these pieces which are then a little bit less on on this efficiency or effectiveness piece. No, no, that makes sense. And when you look beyond the BDR, SDR, like how do you version g or how do you already support maybe other teams? Yeah. We we do support other teams. We set the In-Person: But it's not a key KPI, which is more for those reps, obviously, at the end, like revenue generated, SQLs created, like all of these pieces which are then a little bit less on on this efficiency or effectiveness piece. No, no, that makes sense. And when you look beyond the BDR, SDR, like how do you version g or how do you already support maybe other teams? Yeah. We we do support other teams. We set the Haris: Deliberately In-Person: Deliberately Haris: back then that we want to start a top of funnel and then slowly cascade down the funnel, right? So to to look at other use cases for the AE organization, for the CSMs, for In-Person: back then that we want to start a top of funnel and then slowly cascade down the funnel, right? So to to look at other use cases for the AE organization, for the CSMs, for Haris: for the for the partnerships team and they are then reuse and that's also the way we build all of this reuse the the the the pieces the agents the the automations we did build for the top of funnel and to ensure that this is also then efficiency so for example one one one one case is what one of the bigger chunks of work I'm I'm right now working on with the team is creating like a data cube and this data cube is then interconnected to the data lake cube In-Person: for the for the partnerships team and they are then reuse and that's also the way we build all of this reuse the the the the pieces the agents the the automations we did build for the top of funnel and to ensure that this is also then efficiency so for example one one one one case is what one of the bigger chunks of work I'm I'm right now working on with the team is creating like a data cube and this data cube is then interconnected to the data lake cube Haris: You spoke about the CRM and all of these other pieces, and is gonna be going forward in an ideal world, gonna be the main driver of the of the lead assignment and the lead prioritization of each rep at MOS. This means that in there we are gonna be calculating like a fit value, which is the the the potential to convert an account based on the information we have at In-Person: You spoke about the CRM and all of these other pieces, and is gonna be going forward in an ideal world, gonna be the main driver of the of the lead assignment and the lead prioritization of each rep at MOS. This means that in there we are gonna be calculating like a fit value, which is the the the potential to convert an account based on the information we have at Haris: The assignment the the potential value based on all of the data we have, but also then like a more dynamic value, which is the conversion rate increase ideally or the decrease later on, which is then gonna be also used for any A AE activity, but also for CSMs when when it comes to their accounts. Yeah. I think this is then where AI is gonna add a lot value because a lot of those automation use cases of efficiency increasement, they are great. In-Person: the the potential value based on all of the data we have, but also then like a more dynamic value, which is the conversion rate increase ideally or the decrease later on, which is then gonna be also used for any A AE activity, but also for CSMs when when it comes to their accounts. Yeah. I think this is then where AI is gonna add a lot value because a lot of those automation use cases of efficiency increasement, they are great. Haris: And necessary, but once we can identify those that okay, these are the big opportunities, focus on this and this one first, and yeah, these are big opportunities. These ones we wanna maybe assign to a specific In-Person: necessary, but once we can identify those that okay, these are the big opportunities, focus on this and this one first, and yeah, these are big opportunities. These ones we want to maybe assign to a specific AE with a specific skill set, right? Then we are trying to maximizing the potential of the portfolio, right? So I think that is the Haris: AE with a specific skill set, right? Then we are trying to maximizing the potential of the portfolio, right? So I think that is the kind of holy grain in that regard. Yeah. I I do agree. And and also and also the piece, right? If you think about scale, the piece of if you're having the right context, providing exactly the right context for the next best action to to an individual is something which was obviously not really that easy to do before. But now with AI. In-Person: kind of holy grain in that regard. Yeah, I I do agree. And and also and also the piece, right? If you think about scale, the piece of if you're having the right context, providing exactly the right context for the next best action to a to an individual is something which was obviously not really that easy to do before. But now with AI being able to to to read all of this data, you're you're providing to AI to give the context and then to generate an output somebody can use for an actionable next Haris: being able to to to read all of this data you're you're providing to AI to give the context and then to generate an output somebody can use for an actionable next In-Person: step for a proper preparation for proper conversion increase is something what what I what I do think has changed drastically over the past month and and and years. Haris: step for proper preparation for proper conversion increase is something what what I what I do think has changed drastically over the past month and and and years. Yeah. Getting to the ideal state is amazing, but I bet you probably went into or walked into a few challenges. Maybe can you tell about a few challenges that you noticed? Yeah, I d I do think that that we did try some things too early, right? We did try for example, like a an an automated outbound to build an automated outbound motion a little bit too early in a way that we did things In-Person: Getting to the ideal state is amazing, but I bet you probably went into or walked into a few challenges. Maybe can you tell about a few challenges that you noticed? Yeah, I d I do think that that we did try some things too early, right? We did try for example, like an an automated outbound to build an automated outbound motion a little bit too early in a way that we did things Haris: Think about how can we decrease time spent on email sending, how can we like like approach a potential customer way earlier and was we're doing this and then realize that it's more harming our lead pool, the potential lead pool we can assign to people, and not really getting the results as early as possible. And then also at some point, right? I I do think that there are certain AI companies without naming now. In-Person: Think about how can we decrease time spent on email sending, how can we like like approach a potential customer way earlier and was we're doing this and then realized that it's more harming our lead pool, the potential lead pool we can assign to people, and not really getting the results as early as possible. And then also at some point, right? I I do think that there are certain AI companies without naming now. Haris: Some which were quite early promoters of like AI SDRs and like focusing to be due to the history we had, right? Focusing on on working with those or testing them out and and thinking that this could be something really beneficial for us and and and not realizing like fast enough, and I'm not saying that we wasted a lot of time, but we could have been faster for sure, and and and trying this out and thinking that this would be the the In-Person: Some which were quite early promoters of like AI SDRs and like focusing to be due to the history we had, right? Focusing on on working with those or testing them out and and thinking that this could be something really beneficial for us and and and not realizing like fast enough, and I'm not saying that we wasted a lot of time, but we could have been faster for sure, and and and trying this out and thinking that this would be the the Haris: The the the huge change. I think like the my approach is that you first need to ensure that the data quality is there, yeah, by having a proper data lake, by having a proper data infrastructure in your CRM, which can be readable for again all of these different like recipients, and then you can think about how to automate all of this, how to generate things which are then gonna be automatically or semi-automatically sent out to prospects, customers, or whoever else. Yeah, yeah. In-Person: The the the huge change. I think like the my approach is that you first need to ensure that the data quality is there, yeah, by having a proper data lake, by having a proper data infrastructure in your CRM, which can be readable for again all of these different like recipients, and then you can think about how to automate all of this, how to generate things which are then gonna be automatically or semi-automatically sent out to prospects, customers, or whoever else. Yeah, yeah. Haris: Yeah, I think sometimes it makes sense to wait a little bit and do you actually run into any In-Person: Yeah, I think sometimes it makes sense to wait a little bit and do you actually run into any Haris: big AI spans like token costs, is that the concern or is that not the topic for now? Yeah, it's it's for sure concern. It's for every company a concern, I do believe, right? I'm I'm in the lucky situation not being our CFO to to to have the main the main focus on this in in reality. Obviously my my my token cost and the token cost of my team are measured against against productivity, against revenue gains, right? Or discourse SQL created. So so therefore In-Person: big AI spans like token costs, is that the concern or is that not the topic for now? Yeah, it's it's for sure concern. It's for every company a concern, I do believe, right? I'm I'm in the lucky situation not being our CFO to to to have the main the main focus on this in in reality. Obviously my my my token cost and the token cost of my team are measured against against productivity, against revenue gains, right? Or discourse SQL created. So so therefore Haris: For sure is something I'm always looking at, and I always try to optimize what my team and I'm doing in terms of decreasing the token spend if possible. But I do think a lot of companies are gonna be at some point look into this more closely because if you're not really clear of what you want to achieve, right, there is gonna be a point where this question is gonna be asked more prominently, not just on the token, but also on tools purchased or In-Person: For sure is something I'm always looking at, and I always try to optimize what my team and I'm doing in terms of decreasing the token spend if possible. But I do think a lot of companies are gonna be at some point look into this more closely because if you're not really clear of what you want to achieve, right, there is gonna be a point where this question is gonna be asked more prominently, not just on the token, but also on tools purchased or Haris: or used I do think because there are there's also a cost occurring due to this, right? Yeah yeah yeah and I think I think you're also quite advanced because I think you also have an AI op steam In-Person: or used I do think because there are there's also a cost occurring due to this, right? Yeah yeah yeah and I think I think you're also quite advanced because I think you also have an AI op steam Haris: Which I think it's still rare. Not many companies have an AI ops team. Can you tell us something about what that team does? We we do have a centralized AI ops team which is which is a little bit I I would contact compare it a little bit to the systems teams we're having in revenue operations, right? which is more or less the interconnection of a lot of different teams and not just revenue generating in terms of the setup, in terms of the security, in terms of the scalability of the tools we're using across all different In-Person: Which I think it's still rare. Not many companies have an AI ops team. Can you tell us something about what that team does? We we do have a centralized AI ops team which is which is a little bit I I would contact compare it a little bit to the systems teams we're having in revenue operations, right? which is more or less the interconnection of a lot of different teams and not just revenue generating in terms of the setup, in terms of the security, in terms of the scalability of the tools we're using across all different Haris: Functions. So we do, for example, use N8N, and the AROps team is ensuring that NAN is set up in a way that it's scalable for us, that it's trackable, right? That there's no like huge cost occurring, but everything is set up properly. We started this team. In-Person: functions. So we do, for example, use N8N and the AROps team is ensuring that NAN is is set up in a way that it's scalable for us, that it's trackable, right? That there's no no like huge to cost occurring, but everything is is set up properly. It's it's something which is relatively new. We we started this team Haris: I would say something about six months ago or six to twelve month ago, most likely in in this time frame. and and and said that we want to use it as an enablement and empowerment, central function for all other teams. And obviously this team is then also closely collaborating, working together with not just my team, but also all of the different people working in RevOps as different parts of the the go to market organization working closely there. So it's it's something where I'm I'm really happy to to have this. In-Person: I would say something about six months ago or six to twelve month ago, most likely in in this time frame. and and and said that we want to use it as an enablement and empowerment, central function for all other teams. And obviously this team is then also closely collaborating, working together with not just my team, but also all of the different people working in RevOps as different parts of the the go to market organization working closely there. So it's it's something where I'm I'm really happy to to have this. Haris: In at MOS and also to see as a company that we always were really keen on being at the forefront when it comes to proper usage of AI to scale the company even further. I think that is a big opportunity because it's also not just using those tools, but also so many tools that have conflicting features, and then it's like which one are you picking? And then often teams are. In-Person: In at MOS and also to see as a company that we always were really keen on being at the forefront when it comes to proper usage of AI to scale the company even further. I think that is a big opportunity because it's also not just using those tools, but also so many tools that have conflicting features, and then it's like which one are you picking? And then often teams are. Haris: Getting confused, but hey, I can do this summary or this tool. And that also gives me an AI recommendation. Which one am I using? And like this whole topic of enablement of the whole thing, right? I think the bigger the company becomes, and that making sure that everyone is enabled and can use those tools, I think it's also a big piece of the puzzle. It is, and it's also decreasing the fear of certain people, right? To rethink a little bit how they're doing business. And like for us In-Person: Getting confused, but hey, I can do this summary or this tool. And that also gives me an AI recommendation. Which one am I using? And like this whole topic of enablement of the whole thing, right? I think the bigger the company becomes, and that making sure that everyone is enabled and can use those tools, I think it's also a big piece of the puzzle. It is, and it's also decreasing the fear of certain people, right? To rethink a little bit how they're doing business. And like for us Haris: Briefly flagged, right? We don't just believe in AI being a huge factor to like increase efficiency in in go to market, but all across the organization, right? If it's talent acquisition, if it's any ops-related function, or obviously finance as being in in in at a fintech ourselves, this is something which is way easier if you're having people centrally supporting there. In-Person: Briefly flagged, right? We don't just believe in AI being a huge factor to like increase efficiency in in go to market, but all across the organization, right? If it's talent acquisition, if it's any ops-related function, or obviously finance as being in in in at a fintech ourselves, this is something which is way easier if you're having people centrally supporting there. Haris: And having z this as their clear goal, right? To to to have it embedded in your OKR is for sure something where I I I'm quite happy and I do believe other people would be also happy if you ask them. Yeah. Do you think in one year time that everyone at Morse is gonna just work from the terminal? I'm I'm not sure. I I do believe that also like working from a terminal would mean that you still need to In-Person: And having z this as their clear goal, right? To to to have it embedded in your OKR is for sure something where I I I'm quite happy and I do believe other people would be also happy if you ask them. Yeah. Do you think in one year time that everyone at Morse is gonna just work from the terminal? I'm I'm not sure. I I do believe that also like working from a terminal would mean that you still need to Haris: query or ask something, right? So and I'm I'm I'm a firm believer that that it's way more about what kind of information do you want to show somebody at which point than just giving them full access to every tool and being able to query it from terminal and and and have this all interconnected. Which is a this is a baseline for me, right? You need to have this properly connected to to to to do anything else. But I don't believe that the highest amount of productivity In-Person: query or ask something, right? So and I'm I'm I'm a firm believer that that it's way more about what kind of information do you want to show somebody at which point than just giving them full access to every tool and being able to query it from terminal and and and have this all interconnected. Which is a this is a baseline for me, right? You need to have this properly connected to to to to do anything else. But I don't believe that the highest amount of productivity Haris: And efficiency is reached if you still need to ask centrally from terminal in your example to generate your follow-up email or to generate your your your your your briefing for the day. But I do believe that it's way more about understanding how what are the things the best people are doing, right? Yeah. And how can we ensure that everybody can utilize this? And this can be, in some examples, a skill, right? But if I do see that a skill is being used by a lot of people a lot of times at a day. In-Person: And efficiency is reached if you still need to ask centrally from terminal in your example to generate your follow-up email or to generate your your your your your briefing for the day. But I do believe that it's way more about understanding how what are the things the best people are doing, right? Yeah. And how can we ensure that everybody can utilize this? And this can be, in some examples, a skill, right? But if I do see that a skill is being used by a lot of people a lot of times at a day. Haris: Then I should think about why do they need to re like like query this skill instead of saying at which point should they see what exactly the output of the skill is and how can I even bring this further ahead at the end. Exactly, like it's like even like querying is in the end some form of administrative task which you're not spending time on selling. It does it of course faster. So In-Person: Then I should think about why do they need to re like like query this skill instead of saying at which point should they see what exactly the output of the skill is and how can I even bring this further ahead at the end. Exactly, like it's like even like querying is in the end some form of administrative task which you're not spending time on selling. It does it of course faster. So Haris: The ideal status to provide the idealist like this is we should talk to about this and topic in this order because that will maximize their impact in that regard. I do agree. And and I do think that that as you described, right? It starts with some people are doing something really well, then you have ideally already already connected before, then you do. In-Person: The ideal status to provide the idealist like this is we should talk to about this and topic in this order because that will maximize their impact in that regard. I do agree. And and I do think that that as you described, right, it starts with some people are doing something really well, then you have ideally already already connected before, then you do. Haris: Factor this into a skill, let's call it, and then later on you do have it automatically running as an on a on a certain cadence or by default on certain triggers or thresholds to be like populated where it needs to be populated. In some cases the human should see it, right? in some cases it should just go somewhere else where it's then also also auto-consumed and In-Person: Factor this into a skill, let's call it, and then later on you do have it automatically running as an on on a certain cadence or by default on certain triggers or thresholds to be like populated where it needs to be populated. In some cases the human should see it, right? in some cases it should just go somewhere else where it's then also also auto-consumed and Haris: And proceeding wherever it should float. Nice. So slowly coming to an end. thinking of the goal back of the 100 million. What do you think for your team it's gonna be the biggest contribution to reach that goal? Yeah. I I do think or what what I'm thinking about most is how can I increase a conversion rate? In-Person: And proceeding wherever it should float. Nice. So slowly coming to an end. thinking of the goal back of the 100 million. What do you think for your team it's gonna be the biggest contribution to reach that goal? Yeah. I I do think or what what I'm thinking about most is how can I increase a conversion rate? Haris: And how can you increase conversion rate by by increasing the total number of accounts people are In-Person: And how can you increase conversion rate? By by increasing the total number of accounts people are Haris: Working on right, because let's let's let's face it. I could also say I'm increasing conversion rate by just sending somebody the best accounts where I'm where I ensure that those convert, but my goal is to increase the total number of accounts somebody can work by also increasing the conversion rate. So the contribution is gonna come from ensuring that we are In-Person: working on, right? Because let's let's let's face it. I could also say I'm increasing conversion rate by just sending somebody the best accounts where I'm where I ensure that those convert. But my goal is to increase the total number of accounts somebody can work by also increasing the conversion rate. So the contribution is gonna come from ensuring that. We are ahead of the curve in terms of the measurement of accounts and their their shown intent. We are ahead of the curve when it comes to the data we provide to our to our people and and and the and the context. And also last but not least, I do think that for me at some point then also looking into Haris: Ahead of the curve in terms of the measurement of accounts and their their shown intent. We are ahead of the curve when it comes to the data we provide to our to our people and and and the and the context. And also last but not least, I do think that for me at some point then also looking into the the interface people at moss are going to be looking at every day is something where I do believe a a huge benefit can come from from my team at the end. So I'm you you were mentioning the terminal right I don't believe that the terminal is is the the ultimate goal but I do believe that having a a highly customizable, a highly dynamic interface somebody's looking at at a certain stage of the of the of In-Person: the the interface people at moss are going to be looking at every day is something where I do believe a a huge benefit can come from from my team at the end. So I'm you you were mentioning the terminal right I don't believe that the terminal is is the the ultimate goal but I do believe that having a a highly customizable, a highly dynamic interface somebody's looking at at a certain stage of the of the of Haris: Of In-Person: of Haris: the deal progression of the funnel of whatever is including all of the information we're gathering for all of these different agents, automations, right? Different data sources via the via the data lake is then gonna be the ultimate conversion rate enabler at the last step of this. In-Person: the deal progression of the funnel of whatever is including all of the information we're gathering for all of these different agents automations right different data sources via the via the data lake is then gonna be the the ultimate conversion rate enabler at the last step of this. Haris: Actually wanted to finish about this interface is now very interesting. So this interface, do you see it like as a custom application or more reconfiguring the CRM? But usually always in a CRM there limitation of how you can make it yourself. I do see it as a custom interface. we we and I do think when when you ask earlier, right, something we did perhaps a little bit too early was going into this In-Person: Actually wanted to finish about this interface is now very interesting. So this interface, do you see it like as a custom application or more reconfiguring the CRM? But usually always in a CRM there limitation of how you can make it yourself. I do see it as a custom interface. we we and I do think when when you ask earlier, right, something we did perhaps a little bit too early was going into this Haris: direction already in the past by thinking that if we just In-Person: direction already in the past by thinking that if we just Haris: Show the data we had back then to a rep. Let's now stick to the top of funnel example again. this was not enough, right? Because it was just like some data points we wanted to show somebody, which in reality were already in the CRM at different points. And for me, there it's way more about creating this interface as a custom application, which is automatically opening up, right, or refreshing whenever you are at a certain stage, right? Could be reach out here. In-Person: Show the data we had back then to a rep. Let's now stick to the top of funnel example again. This was not enough, right? Because it was just like some data points we wanted to show somebody, which in reality were already in the CRM at different points. And for me, there it's way more about creating this interface as a custom application, which is automatically opening up, right, or refreshing whenever you are at a certain stage, right? Could be reach out here. Haris: And then having their data from the CM, but also from other sources floating in to give somebody a proper talk track, to give somebody exactly the information about the account at this stage is relevant. And also all of these other different pieces we're generating via via agent to track the intent, to track everything else, is in my opinion, then something which is most likely or it's not going to be living for us in Salesforce. And I do believe that also for a lot of other companies it's In-Person: And then having their data from the CM, but also from other sources floating in to give somebody a proper talk track, to give somebody exactly the information about the account at this stage is relevant. And also all of these other different pieces we're generating via via agent to track the intent, to track everything else, is in my opinion, then something which is most likely or it's not going to be living for us in Salesforce. And I do believe that also for a lot of other companies it's Haris: This is going to be the case at some point. I believe so too. Alright, Molo. Thank you for your time and thank you for this post script, basically. And yeah. Thank you. It was a pleasure talking to you, Harris. Yeah, looking forward to our interactions in the future. Definitely. Have a good day. You too. In-Person: This is going to be the case at some point. I believe so too. Alright, Molo. Thank you for your time and thank you for this post script, basically. And yeah. Thank you. It was a pleasure talking to you, Harris. Yeah, looking forward to our interactions in the future. Definitely. Have a good day. You too.