Latest / Coaches Rising / 279 - Marvin Oka: The Nature of Second Order Leadership

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279 - Marvin Oka: The Nature of Second Order Leadership · Coaches Rising

• 0:00
  [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
• 0:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: welcome back.
• 0:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is the Coaches Rising podcast.
• 0:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm really delighted to share this conversation with you today.
• 0:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm joined by Marvin Oca and Marvin, as you will find out, has a very vast, sophisticated understanding of inner and outer change.
• 0:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to explore today,
• 0:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: approach to the work he does with the leaders doing systemic change, and we will talk about many, many things.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a long conversation.
• 0:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: I highly recommend you listen to this whole thing.
• 0:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to talk about the different types of learning that we can engage in.
• 1:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Why first order
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: A bigger transformation.
• 1:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: We need to engage in second order change.
• 1:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: Marvin will talk about what that is, what are the ingredients of it.
• 1:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: How can we enter into truly transformational, generative learning?
• 1:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll talk about the...
• 1:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: connection between the inner work we do and leading systemic change and in fact how we can't really separate those two Marvin or share his views on what leadership truly is it's a beautiful distinction and we will go right into Marvin's ontologically generative move the moves that he makes with clients which comes towards the end of the conversation
• 1:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: powerful ideas shared in this podcast that I can't possibly name them all in this intro.
• 2:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's some great ones I'm forgetting.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: You can maybe feel there's an excitement in me when I come across someone like Marvin who has dedicated his life to understanding transformation on this level of sophistication.
• 2:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do a second part of this conversation where we explore explicitly complex decision making on an individual and collective level.
• 2:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Just to say a few more words about Marvin is a highly sought after international consultant and speaker working with leaders exploring, supporting them to make systemic change.
• 2:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: and he trains leaders, he trains consultants and coaches.
• 2:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: He is an innovator and created a field known as behavioral modeling, which examines various forms of human talent and expertise and seeks to create models and methods that replicate these forms of superior performance in others.
• 2:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: All that being said, we're in great hands.
• 3:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's dive in to the podcast with Marvin Oka.
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: So Marvin, welcome to the Coaches Rising podcast, and I have been really looking forward to this conversation.
• 3:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: Ever since we first met and I just had this electrifying conversation with you, what I appreciate about you was not only did the way you think about transformational change really resonate with me, but you just felt like you had this deeply
• 3:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: uh, broad and kind of systemic way of being able to speak about transformation from so many different angles and facets.
• 3:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to we're going to get right into your work today and uh, first of all, like, could you say how, basically, how are you are?
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: And just give us a kind of brief introduction of what you're up to in the world.
• 3:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's great.
• 3:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, Joe.
• 3:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's great.
• 3:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's an honor to be here and to be with you.
• 4:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I'm doing fine.
• 4:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I had a it's late at night tonight, but I had a big day with a good with a client today.
• 4:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've got through a lot of things.
• 4:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's always really rewarding.
• 4:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: You might put it to tell a bit about the background.
• 4:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's quite a bit to it.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll try and keep it as succinct as possible.
• 4:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: My job is what's known as neural behavioral modeling.
• 4:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, big fancy word basically what it means is we look at forms of human ability or human competence, and our job is to essentially replicate it, or at least some aspect of it, and the challenge is that all forms of human competence.
• 4:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: requires psychological neurological, other types of biological processes occurring outside the awareness of the expert or the performer.
• 4:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So as an example, I'll often ask an audience to just wiggle their fingers and then I'll ask, let's say the world's greatest finger wiggler for some trained reason and I want to know how to do what they do.
• 4:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I asked them, uh, tell me,
• 5:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, masterfinger, what do you do that?
• 5:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they'll say, well, you hold up your hand and wiggle.
• 5:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I haven't yet met anybody who can actually explain to me exactly how you do a simple task like wiggling your fingers.
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: So holding up your hand and wiggling is, as we say in the field, it's accurate, but uninformative.
• 5:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's great.
• 5:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's true that's what you do, but if I don't know how to do that, that set of instructions it doesn't help.
• 5:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: and so you can't, if you can't even explain how to wiggle your fingers, how do you explain things like complex leadership, looking at whole system change, or trying to make wise decisions and complex ambiguous environments, how do you know whether or not your action is going to have positive or negative consequences, it takes a very different set of internal processing.
• 5:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So our job, I've been often been, sometimes been called a neurological hacker, for instance.
• 5:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: We sort of get in and find out what's occurring in the psychological neurological, biological processes of the human, even outside their own awareness.
• 6:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: They wouldn't even think to explain.
• 6:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when we can start to decode a lot of it and map it,
• 6:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and test it to see if we can replicate the behavior, then we have what's called a neurobehavioral model.
• 6:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then the job is to now commercialize it, monetize it, or find ways in which it's learnable by other people.
• 6:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or we build it into the design of, you know, job trainings, programs, job design, whatever it might be.
• 6:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of a, there's much more to it, but this kind of the short end of how it actually works.
• 6:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now I've got colleagues in my particular field that look at what I think are kind of obvious things like sports performance and that's wonderful.
• 6:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's great and I learn a lot from what they find, but I'm particularly more interested in looking at how to elevate the consciousness for wise decision making and society.
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm more interested in how leaders are able to facilitate whole system change.
• 7:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: which have a real, real systemic cultural transformation, which is known as second order change, or in the context of coaches, how do you facilitate emergent consciousness?
• 7:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what's called vertical change, which is another way of saying, second order change to one's current level of consciousness.
• 7:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I look at those kinds of areas, because the goal that I'm after is elevate with the mode decision-making and societies.
• 7:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I take a look at a range of other fields.
• 7:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have any bias towards anything.
• 7:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I look at anything and everything.
• 7:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And as a model, I'll look at anything that helps me find ways to make distinctions and put language to very complex things that have been involved humans, so whether it's internal to the human, for coaching processes, whether it's more externalized, in terms of interactions with other people, all the way to how does it particularly second order leaders facilitate the emergence of second order systemic cultural change.
• 7:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of a shortened curly
• 7:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to, I'm going to ask you about second order, change, second order and leadership in a moment.
• 8:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: But could you say something first about what?
• 8:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, something you said in an interview, I saw really spoke to me, which is that you know, systems are for an operating and homey of stasis and right now, if we look at the world, it feels like many things are in a state of disruption or flux and certainty, which can be
• 8:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, intense.
• 8:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: I decided to end about a word for it's intense.
• 8:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: But what you said was also when that is the case, actually, there is a potential in that system for transformation because the normal kind of governing structures are loosened and opened.
• 8:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: So did you say something about.
• 8:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: what you see happening in the world right now and the impact on leadership.
• 8:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: And also tie that to what you said about leadership, not being a top-down endeavor, but emerging from collective angst.
• 9:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that will contextualize then our dive into second order, generative learning.
• 9:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, this is brilliant.
• 9:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for that question because it's it's a big obviously there's a lot of a lot of different ways to even to begin a tent to answer that First let's let's start off with with the premise that you're coming from around
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: particularly living systems.
• 9:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: If we look at living systems, they move towards some kind of homeostasis where you want some sort of a system that, in a complex, what's called a complex adaptive system, the system is trying to balance itself so that it can stabilize itself and be able to survive in whatever kind of conditions that it is.
• 9:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: However, that's only one part of the story.
• 9:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: In living systems, particularly with where humans are involved, there's always a dynamic tension between homeostasis, some sense of certainty, stability, so that things can be predictable and you know how to behave, but then there's also a...
• 10:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: a competing tension around learning and growing and evolving and becoming, and so this tension creates an interesting vector that now starts to happen that becomes the second-order leadership space.
• 10:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, were you trying to balance these two on a non-going basis?
• 10:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, having said that, I'll qualify what I just said and I'll unpack it a bit as we go, which is in the context of consciousness, the metaphors that are often used when people talk about consciousness is vertical.
• 10:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: They often talk about levels higher and lower levels of consciousness, for instance.
• 10:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a reason why that metaphor, that linguistic metaphor works in many situations.
• 10:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So at a particular level of consciousness,
• 11:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: One might see one or the other of that tension.
• 11:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: They might see, as you pointed out, I look out in the world and I see chaos, confusion, disruption, warfare, I see dysfunctionality on every step of the way and we're headed towards doom.
• 11:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then there are others that saying, look on the other side of the continuum and say, well, it's a beautiful world and life and everything's all great and we just have to come back to being on track on things.
• 11:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, of course, both sides are thinking the other side is completely insane.
• 11:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, both are in play, in a living system, both things are in play, and like a classic lack of better metaphors, if I go to something like, uh, in trilectics, we're going to Ian Yang and we're going to have a doll, we're going to have the two seemingly opposing conflicting things, but actually there's an integration between them.
• 11:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: when the context of second-order leadership of emerging transformational change.
• 12:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: What we're seeing is this tension between the need for stability.
• 12:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you see people that are just saying, oh, what we need is more isolationism and more national security and the other people are threatening us.
• 12:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a very tribal mentality.
• 12:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're saying that.
• 12:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to reach for stability.
• 12:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want this stability, but in a context of a world that's now becoming more integrated, interconnected, that stability is not possible in the old way of knowing what stability actually is.
• 12:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: What we have to reach now is for more integration.
• 12:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: But in that process, living systems will first, well, this is what I'm saying is a big, because how many, how many,
• 12:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll take a side tangent and explain something and then I'll bring it back, okay, if that's okay.
• 12:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's many different models to look at what happens in what biology calls the point of bifurcation.
• 12:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: At what point does the organism or the species have as a choice point or metaphorically a choice point, not always a choice.
• 13:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: But to either grow or die to actually evolve or go extinct.
• 13:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'm going to step aside from I'm going to go to a physical metaphor because it's the easiest one to understand and I'll bring it back to a living system in just a moment.
• 13:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: So many years back, I'm sure probably some of your listeners will know about this.
• 13:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Many years ago, the Iliapregaging Wana Nobel Prize for his theory of dissipative structures.
• 13:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: and he was chemical physicist and he started to identify as an example, let's say we have a pot of water water on the stove, and the pot of water is in the state of balance, some homeless state, so the water stays at a particular temperature as much as possible, but let's say we start applying energy to that system.
• 13:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: We apply heat to that system.
• 13:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the system now has to take this incoming energy and dissipate it somehow.
• 13:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So how does it do that?
• 13:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It starts off by radiant heat.
• 13:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It starts to just get hot, right?
• 13:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if the heat turns up and it doesn't go away, the heat stays on.
• 14:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then the water, I'm going to take lysis with a lot of metaphors here.
• 14:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: The water molecule will start vibrating.
• 14:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they start, as it starts getting closer and closer to a boiling point, they start bouncing off of each other.
• 14:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the technical term for that is that the system is now in perturbation.
• 14:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: The system is perturbed.
• 14:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: All the elements are perturbed.
• 14:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're trying to find all these different connections as water, right?
• 14:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: As a system known as water, it's trying to find all these connections to try and dissipate the heat.
• 14:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: But at some point, if the heat stays on, long enough.
• 14:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: and hot enough, then the system reaches a threshold point.
• 14:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: In physical terms, in the old days, it would be, it would be called a catastrophe point.
• 14:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you can bend for instance a piece of metal and it'll bend back and it'll bounce back and it'll bend and bounce back.
• 14:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you bend it too far, at some point, it's structurally hits a catastrophe and it changes its form.
• 15:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: On this case, the water hits this threshold point where the only way it can dissipate the heat
• 15:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: is transform.
• 15:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: It actually has to change is a very formation.
• 15:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it turns into steam and as steam it can dissipate the heat.
• 15:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's completely transformed at that point.
• 15:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a second order change.
• 15:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a different thing altogether, right?
• 15:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you think about that, in terms of what's happening in the system today, we're seeing pockets of the world trying to stabilize themselves.
• 15:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is we don't live in a isolationist world.
• 15:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: We are interconnected.
• 15:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Things do affect each other.
• 15:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Interdependencies now come into play and into the front of mind.
• 15:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so what's going to happen?
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, like the water molecule is bouncing back and forth, you're going to see people going to conflict.
• 15:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to see them going into defense, attack, whatever it might be.
• 15:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're trying anything they can.
• 15:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: They try and just come back to the life that they know that they're trying to preserve.
• 16:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now at some point, we're going to hit a threshold if we haven't already, where it is, it will be growl or die time.
• 16:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: It'll either be, we're going to hit such a catastrophe point where we've got to reorganize and rethink, otherwise we're neutral extinction every step of the way, or it will be that, it will be collapse, it will be, you know, the other option to growl or die, you can grow or you can die.
• 16:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: quickly we can't go extinct, right?
• 16:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: That can't happen.
• 16:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, in terms of that, that's what we're seeing now.
• 16:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, coming back, putting it back to second order leadership.
• 16:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is where we start to see the, the, the, the call, the real call to leadership.
• 16:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: where we know that the conflict situations are not going to be sustainable.
• 16:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, here's the amazing thing, right?
• 16:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Which is, and this is where second order change of first order change needs to be understood as much as second order change.
• 16:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: So not all first order change, first order change is not bad.
• 17:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: In the right context, it's an appropriate thing.
• 17:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: But first order change is the maintaining of the current system.
• 17:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: and over the years I've identified four types of first order change that any good second order leader needs to be able to recognize very early well in advance.
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: So one is believe it or not, improvement.
• 17:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: When things improve, people think, ah, that was great, the things are now better.
• 17:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yes and no, if the system itself
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: was problematic, and it was the system itself that needed to transform and evolve.
• 17:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Improvement actually makes matters worse.
• 17:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because what it does is it actually reduces the cognitive dissonance and the tension that's occurring in the system.
• 17:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because things are now better.
• 17:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's no need to transform for your improved.
• 17:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's gotten better.
• 17:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: In many ways, if you want steam, if you want the part of water to boil and turn it to steam, that would be like reducing the heat.
• 18:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: So let me take the heat down.
• 18:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that better?
• 18:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's better, but it's not getting us to steam.
• 18:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's what we need for the steam engine, right?
• 18:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Another one is the fix, it comes back to the way it used to be, and this is the way you see most people approach health, for instance.
• 18:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: is that they have a health problem, they go to the doctor, and they want to fix.
• 18:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: They want the pill, or they want the surgery, or they want something.
• 18:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes it's absolutely needed, don't get me wrong.
• 18:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not, I'm not, I'm not discounting it.
• 18:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just that, that's only one part of it.
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: If what was needed was a real transformation about how a person approaches their lifestyle, for instance.
• 18:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so it's one thing if they have heart disease and it's like, oh great, you can take these pills, which will help, you know, reduce your blood pressure and help potentially help clean out your arteries, but if your lifestyle doesn't change, then this is a very first order move.
• 18:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll feel better, things have improved for a little while.
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you keep smoking and drinking and doing all the kind of things to excess, what causes a heart attack in the first place is that system is still in place.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what needs to transform.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you can't just reduce the energy.
• 19:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can't reduce the cognitive dissonance.
• 19:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is why sometimes in coaching, you kind of want to, sometimes not always, sometimes amplify the problem for the client.
• 19:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, for so that they really understand imperative to actually make a really big significant change.
• 19:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: If that's what's called for, if big if.
• 19:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: The third type of first order changes much to do about nothing.
• 19:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the classic rearranging get shares on the Titanic.
• 19:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think anyone who's working organizations has seen numerous change programs that after at the end of the day, after all a sit and done money has been spent effort has been done.
• 19:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're really right back to status quo.
• 19:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe names and faces have changed, labels have changed, but still kind of the same culture or the same everything.
• 19:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's classic just rearranged things.
• 19:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the fourth type of first order changes, is changes that actually lock in the current system.
• 20:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: They make it even harder to change.
• 20:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Many times our election cycles are that way.
• 20:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like, or sometimes changing the CEO, but if the remuneration package is the same, you still rewarded on the same metrics.
• 20:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're still going to get the same kind of CEO, producing the same kind of results.
• 20:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it just locks it in harder and harder.
• 20:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Bring it back now.
• 20:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: The idea is you don't want to just reduce the perturbation that's going on in the system.
• 20:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, when you see this tension between homeostasis versus a pull towards evolution or a call to learning and growth, and we've experienced it within ourselves, within our own psyche, right?
• 20:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: We kind of like our comfort zone because it's comfortable.
• 20:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, we also want to learn and grow, and then we instantly hit this tension point.
• 20:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I want to learn and grow, but
• 20:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: that means I'd have to change.
• 20:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's right.
• 20:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right there's the same same kind of dynamic.
• 21:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like, oh yeah, but I want to really pursue my calling, but I don't want to leave my job because it's secure and I need the money.
• 21:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, you're in that same pattern right now, right?
• 21:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, homeostasis and growth and what it looks like internally is chaos.
• 21:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's for them, it's the human, it's confusion.
• 21:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: What do I do?
• 21:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's uncertainty.
• 21:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure.
• 21:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want this, but I don't want to let go of this.
• 21:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so as you're probably where in transition coaching, as William Bridges used to say, you know, all transitions begin with an end.
• 21:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they all begin with something has to finish and you have to let go of a lot of things.
• 21:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then you're going to go into the second stage of a transition, which is the limbo land.
• 21:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what do you call the neutral zone?
• 21:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: But for me, it's more of a limbo, where you're in this tension.
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Between, I want to know, I want to go back to what I know stable and secure versus, but I want to grow and go into something new at the same time.
• 21:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this tension, without coming back now to the level of consciousness required, if you're at only a level of consciousness that sees the either or your stock.
• 22:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: where you can see that both are in plate neat once neither bad nor good.
• 22:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And all it is is a dynamic.
• 22:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that your job now is to navigate there's a dynamic in your own life with your own choices.
• 22:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then now it becomes what is the wisdom of choices to navigate this when.
• 22:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's things I have to let go.
• 22:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's some things I can take with me into the future, but there's some things that don't apply anymore.
• 22:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like my, you know, I need a new, I need to upgrade my identity, for instance.
• 22:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Some aspects of my identity stay the same.
• 22:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Some need to completely transform.
• 22:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now, how do we navigate it from this higher order of a metacognition and metacognition?
• 22:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, come back now to your question, what are the implications for leadership?
• 22:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, number one, what leaders do multiple things?
• 22:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: When the system itself is problematic, one of the first things that leader has to bring to the system, is consciousness.
• 23:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: and it has to bring energy for change, because it takes energy to transform.
• 23:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: In many ways, if we go back to the part of water metaphor, for analogy, the leaders of the heat.
• 23:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And guess what's going to happen, say, in an organization, when you bring in the heat of change?
• 23:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, all the particles of the EEG, all the people in the organization, I'm going to go bounce back for, get perturbed, and the natural instinct is to either resist, or some will embrace and are ready for the transformation.
• 23:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there's going to be this ongoing tension, and the leader now has to manage the tension, but not in a transactional way.
• 23:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: For real, second order change to occur in my context of bringing wisdom into society, you need to bring higher orders of consciousness into the game.
• 23:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, not everybody's up for that, not everybody's ready for that, but the leader, better be.
• 23:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: A second order leader, better be.
• 23:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so this part of their job is to manage just the bringing energy, they will cause perturbation if they're doing great things.
• 24:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Their job is to be able to frame, reframe appropriately, to be able to keep elevating people's consciousness to make meaning of events at a higher order level, one that more expresses who could become if we move to this new way of being.
• 24:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then they can have a transformative impact.
• 24:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: on the on the living system that they are enabling.
• 24:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not I don't go for the over the leader follower type metaphor.
• 24:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're they're more of like a catalyst and then if you want we can get more into the thoughts on bottom-up leadership and how it's an emergent property of the collective, but
• 24:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: without having to ramble on for too long.
• 24:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: I said it earlier, just catch me because I can go on to diverse angles very quickly.
• 24:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: But this is what I'm seeing in the world as well.
• 24:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're seeing a certain dynamics just naturally occurring because because of the interdependencies of the world.
• 24:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Different worldviews that are not at, not all the world views that are out there at the same level of consciousness.
• 25:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they are some that are trying to protect their stability and they see the way to do that is war.
• 25:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: for instance.
• 25:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then there are others that are saying, oh no, stop the wars.
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, nice, but that's not how the whole system works because the planet is comprised of human beings at different orders of consciousness, of which one order of consciousness is war.
• 25:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: and it will be there in the system, to say stop the wars is naive.
• 25:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to happen, and probably one of the first victims of the people, one of the first victims of war is going to be the ones who don't want to go to war.
• 25:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'm not saying go to war, what I'm saying is, it's not a dichotomy.
• 25:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: You have to know that all are in play.
• 25:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: We need a metavue of how to actually enable this.
• 25:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: None of that is prescriptive.
• 25:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody's got the technical answer.
• 25:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have to emerge it as we move forward via my colleague Richard Hames, and I would call transformational conversation or transformational narrative.
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there are ways to go about it, not easy, not prescriptive, there's no magic bullet.
• 26:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: However, there are ways to figure things out as we go from a higher order of God, as we go into the future, from higher orders of consciousness.
• 26:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it takes people to start there and have an intention there.
• 26:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's going to be the beginning of what I call second order leadership.
• 26:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much that a rambal of it.
• 26:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: It did make sense and I've made some notes because there was many things you shared that I'd love to like double click on and expand a little bit further.
• 26:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you know in a sense and maybe this is a question to you about which direction we go in first.
• 26:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's the systemic outer change in the world and this is a very simplistic and maybe illusionary separation, dualism, I'm creating, but the outer change in the world and you're describing that, but there's also the inner change of the leader and it seems like,
• 27:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: they, you know, as you're saying, they go hand in hand, you know, that actually it's a second order leader that can affect second order change.
• 27:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's a particular way of being in particular kind of consciousness in the world.
• 27:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, I'd like to unpack now how like what
• 27:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: How do we enact second order change?
• 27:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you describe like transitions that we find ourselves in, that are inviting that kind of learning.
• 27:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, tie that to as well, how do we then enact second order change in systems?
• 27:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe we start with second order consciousness itself because that seems like fundamental to be able to enact second order systemic change.
• 28:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: Could you say what kind of things are you talked in the beginning about neurobehavioral modeling and complex decision-making?
• 28:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: What is that pathway into?
• 28:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: Let me ask this as a question, App.
• 28:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: second order learning a mode that we enter into, you know, sometimes we are in first order learning and that's fine and then we enter a second order learning.
• 28:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: Or is it a kind of stage of maturity that we access when we're always in a kind of second order learning or is it both?
• 28:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, what a lovely question, and it's a very, very insightful query that you have there.
• 28:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 28:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: lots of angles to try and unpack this from maybe an entry point is to start with levels of learning.
• 29:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: So back in the eighties, I ran across a paper by Gregory Bateson and which he described the title was around logical types of learning when in fact what is running about they were logical types but it was actually talking about logical levels of learning so instead of just categorizations they're actually talking about levels of abstraction.
• 29:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he talked about how it went from, to keep it simple, you call it learning level zero, one, two, three, and the, but it went on, add in for an item.
• 29:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And because it was conceptual, it was a theoretical paper.
• 29:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know, it was conceptual.
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he talked about how after about learning four or so, he said, it was pointless to talk about it because it got so abstract at that point that, you know, a human couldn't do anything with it.
• 29:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: It just becomes concept after concept after that.
• 29:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, as a modler, it's the neurobehavele modler.
• 29:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was reading this paper thinking, this is fantastic.
• 29:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: The distinction he was making was fantastic.
• 29:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: But what do I do with it?
• 29:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do I turn it into something I can do something with?
• 30:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I started taking the concept and turning into an approach and a time of methodology for learning.
• 30:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And at the time, I just simply called it gender-to-flearning.
• 30:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then much as my surprise, the term showed up in things like Peter's English, fifth discipline, and etc.
• 30:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, obviously it's a term people use, but I kind of just thought it on my own from my own use.
• 30:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it caused the first four levels, even though it goes up to learning three, because the first level is zero, learning level zero.
• 30:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's important to start there because then I'll link it to the different mode of learning, and then therefore, with the second order learning occurs within the individual, then what it means for their four-four leaders to work, and then how that it relates to the interdependency between the internal and the external.
• 30:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, back to your train of questions there.
• 30:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So first, just explain it very simply.
• 30:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is actually quite lengthy, but I'll cut to the chase on it.
• 30:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: At the most surface level, there's learning levels zero.
• 31:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Learning level zero is straight stimulus response conditioning.
• 31:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's straight road memory.
• 31:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's the way we learn the times tables, it's the way we learn our alphabet, it's the way we learn the musical scale, any kind of technical knowledge.
• 31:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're a tax person, it's the way you learn all the tax formulas and tax laws.
• 31:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: You just have to drill it in.
• 31:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then there is learning level one.
• 31:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now to simplify what Bateson was saying, I'll call learning level one, applied learning.
• 31:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the focus of all training of real training, which is to take knowledge that you'll get or content knowledge that you'll get at learning level zero and do something with it, apply it.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So a classic thing might be, you might learn your times tables, but then you get a math exam that says terrific, okay, if you have, you know, if there's three people with two apples each, how many apples do you have?
• 31:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you now have to figure out, how do I apply my multiplication tables to this problem?
• 31:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so this is how you learn any trade work to whatever it might be, this skill development, classic skill development.
• 32:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Learning level two is pattern recognition.
• 32:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the world of learning how to learn, and this is where you have patterning now involved.
• 32:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so this is the classic, this is the land where the classic phrase is, you know, the old classic give a person a fish, feed them for a day, teach them how to fish, feed them for a lifetime.
• 32:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so this is where the world accelerated learning comes in.
• 32:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is where we learn how to use Namanics for better zero learning.
• 32:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is where we learn how to use colors to activate the limbic system for better emotional coding of things.
• 32:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is how we use the imagery like we learn how to learn on a lot of these areas.
• 32:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is also in the land of personal learning.
• 32:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is where we get insights and our hearts.
• 32:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we see the pattern, like during coaching sessions, someone says, ah, now that explains so many things that have happened in my life, right?
• 32:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: They've hit a learning tool distinction.
• 32:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: When, ah, they can see that how will just ripple the cross so many different contexts.
• 33:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if I were to do respect just kind of building out on the old phrase, if you give a person a fish and you feed them for a day and you teach them how to fish and you feed them for a lifetime, that's wonderful, but what if they don't like fish?
• 33:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Learning Level 3 is a completely different game unto itself.
• 33:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So learning 3 is what I call the generative learning or transformational learning or sometimes I call it reorganisational learning.
• 33:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is more ontological.
• 33:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is where, and at this level, as we spoke about it, it'd be a previous thing when we first spoke, there's now six domains where I will see if someone's in a mode of transformative learning or generative learning.
• 33:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I also see transformations being really big qualitative changes in six domains, six categories.
• 34:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: One is going to be ontological.
• 34:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're way of being changes, right?
• 34:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Who they are in the world?
• 34:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: How they know themselves to be in the world?
• 34:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Epistemological, the way they know the world itself, the way they create reality for themselves.
• 34:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or is I lovingly like to say, what's it all about, Alfie?
• 34:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know at the end of the day, what are you trying to fulfill?
• 34:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are you trying to achieve?
• 34:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is it?
• 34:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
• 34:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: That there's also going to be phenomenal logical, which is your experience of the world.
• 34:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do things occur to you?
• 34:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Other things arise in your consciousness.
• 34:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then there's going to be Praxis, which will probably be closer to where I think a lot of your programs are on embodied learning or embodied changes, embodied coaching.
• 34:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: In Praxis, how do you take what you know and how does it become embodied and into your behavior?
• 34:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: How does it translate into what you do?
• 34:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, what you do at an ontological level, because doing and being become the same thing at that point, not at a learning one skill level, where you do it sometimes, not at the times.
• 35:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's more like, this is now how you do things in the world, your praxis.
• 35:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the sixth domain will be levels of your metacognition and metacognition.
• 35:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So your ability to reflect on your own internal processes.
• 35:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: and then your ability to reflect on the way you reflect on your own internal processes.
• 35:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, to give an example of how significant that, what we call a logical level shift, actually is, is sometimes, you know, the phrase getting metas, sometimes, sometimes having metacognition and being aware of your own internal processes by and of itself can be wildly empowering
• 35:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And at other times, wildly disempowering.
• 35:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, people kind of go, what do you mean, isn't awareness like curative?
• 36:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, depends.
• 36:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Depends on the level of consciousness that's underpinning that awareness.
• 36:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So for instance, if someone ever makes the comment, this is something like, oh, you know, I just went to my console or therapist or psychiatrist or coach or whatever it might be.
• 36:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I suddenly realized all these patterns that I've been really using to mess up my life and all my limiting patterns.
• 36:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, no, I know why I'm screwed.
• 36:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, okay, this is not a really empowering level of meta cognition.
• 36:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad you're aware that you've got these really limiting thoughts.
• 36:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that awareness just locks you, it's the fourth, you know, for sort of change.
• 36:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: It locks you in now to these limiting thoughts.
• 36:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because now you identify with being someone who's got these limiting thoughts.
• 36:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be a harder change now, right?
• 36:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: So sometimes you need a metametta cognition to kind of go, okay, you've ended up with one way of thinking that you're screwed for life because of these thoughts that you have.
• 37:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's one way you could have interpreted this insight, this learning to insight.
• 37:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is there other ways you could have interpreted this?
• 37:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then, what is the consciousness that would you choose, which way you're going to interpret something?
• 37:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, that's a completely different order of processing altogether.
• 37:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I have found that the people that are really good at second order change that are intentional about it, have high degrees of metacognition.
• 37:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Many of them have high degrees of meta-metacognition, but they have at least good meta-cognition.
• 37:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're able to reflect on the way they're approaching something and the really good ones challenged the way they're actually doing that as well.
• 37:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we're looking at this now.
• 37:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's, when you come out at this level, things that you knew in the past also transform.
• 37:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So for instance, I'm about to tell you something that I had learned decades ago, but it was only probably in the last four or five years that I suddenly went, oh my gosh.
• 38:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let me just rethink what I thought I knew about this thing.
• 38:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, Jean-Pierge, when he was looking at how children learn, he made one of the things he made was the difference between a similar to versus a accommodative learning.
• 38:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: For people that know David Cobes and Learning Cycle, then what Bernice McCarthy did with it in terms of the format system.
• 38:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to see what David Cobb you have.
• 38:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: You have a simulators.
• 38:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: These are the what quadrant learners that like content.
• 38:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And on the diametrically opposite side of a four-factor model, you've got the accommodators.
• 38:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: The accommodative learning are the what if learners.
• 38:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're like a classic entrepreneurs that say, well, if that's the case, then why don't we just do this with it.
• 38:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're off exploring and innovating on a lot of things.
• 38:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the way I understood a similar to
• 38:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Until I really looked at it from a genitive learning viewpoint, I went, oh my gosh, because I was trying to wrestle with the idea of, why don't, how is it that people don't just automatically change?
• 39:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you give them a great insight, a great learning to insight, how come they don't just go, wow, that just changes everything.
• 39:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas others will just go, oh yeah, that's interesting.
• 39:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then they'll move on and be like, how they were before you said this great insight.
• 39:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I was like, look at this, going, what, how was this book?
• 39:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I did this by the way, because I was getting frustrated.
• 39:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, with some clients, going, come, they don't learn, right?
• 39:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I started to be like, look, the assimilative learner,
• 39:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: which we all do, it's not either or, we all do this.
• 39:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: When we are in a similar mode, we're taking new distinctions that people are telling us and we're fitting it into what we already know.
• 39:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're trying to make it match to what we already know and that is a very efficient way of learning.
• 40:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is this like that I already know that I can learn it easier?
• 40:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, when you look at how people change, for instance, I think, in the book, how minds change, and they were looking at the use of the Socratic Method and how you can challenge people by introducing discrepancy in their own belief systems.
• 40:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what happens is, when someone is in a similarative mode, when you get an anomaly or discrepancy to what your worldview, what you already know, the first instinct, trying to preserve wholemeal stasis of my worldview, is you just bread it off as an anomaly.
• 40:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you just move it to the side.
• 40:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: People do this when they just get a lot, that's just the conspiracy theory.
• 40:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're just wiping it to the side without actually wondering, what if there's any basis to some of this, right?
• 40:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's just an exception.
• 40:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: They move it to the side as if it didn't matter.
• 40:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: But when those exceptions and those contradictions start stacking up and you get enough of them,
• 41:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like coming back to the analogies we've set up already.
• 41:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like adding more heat to the pot of water, where you're epistemological pot of water is not perturbating, going, I've got so many anomalies now, coming from credible sources.
• 41:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can't just discount them anymore.
• 41:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: What do I do?
• 41:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's when your worldview starts rearranging and reorganizing.
• 41:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that it can accommodate, you start going into steam, so it'll steam coming out of the ears.
• 41:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: It starts going into steam, where you reach a different way of knowing the world where you can integrate.
• 41:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's no longer light and dark, but there is a, it's no longer Yin and Yang there's a dial that integrates the two, right?
• 41:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you get to this higher order, and that's accommodated for learning.
• 41:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's when you start reorganizing and rearranged.
• 41:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's generative learning at that point, right?
• 42:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: What has to happen is for a certain track this as a modeler is when people are able to do this and do it naturally easily.
• 42:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's going on in their mind and in their world compared to those that don't.
• 42:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's actually happening there, and from modeling viewpoint, I started to recognize a few things.
• 42:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: The ones who do this either intuitively or they've developed that as a skill or they can do it more frequently than others.
• 42:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that they are aware of because of their level of meta cognition and meta meta cognition is they realize that they're thoughts.
• 42:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Their mental models, their representations of things, are just that.
• 42:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Their just thoughts, their just mental models, their just maps, their just representations.
• 42:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're not identified with them.
• 42:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: At some point they come back into question, their own thoughts, because they're thoughts.
• 42:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas the others that don't, the thoughts are not just thoughts.
• 43:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's them, like the thoughts are what they believe, right?
• 43:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not our belief, it's what they believe.
• 43:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: They can identify with it and they attach and they defend.
• 43:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, if I could, oh, yeah, go ahead, yeah, you want to just pin it.
• 43:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: I want to jump in in a moment, just, actually, it's just, okay.
• 43:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, what's happening?
• 43:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to put it back now to the original premise,
• 43:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're going to create second order change as a leader, if you're going to try and enable and facilitate second order change, first of all, it's emergent, so you can't prescribe second order change.
• 43:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can't say this is the change I want and it's second order change, no, that you don't know that, right?
• 43:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Second order change is second order, it's only when the system reorganizes, it's emergent, you don't know what it's going to look like.
• 43:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: but what you can shape is the qualitative direction it's evolving into as the leader and the form will take care of itself as long as you keep shaping the qualitative aspect but if you're going to shape conditions you can remember that we're part of the system too as an agent we are not separate from the system we operate within we are part of that very system so as the system around us changes
• 44:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have to change.
• 44:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have to evolve.
• 44:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so a good second order leader is continually during accommodative learning.
• 44:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're continually upgrading between the ears, not just up how things work, but who they are.
• 44:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're all their identity.
• 44:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: They have to evolve.
• 44:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So good second order leaders are continually evolving in their own way of being, as well, if they're being truly effective.
• 44:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So at this point, the internal and the external.
• 44:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, you can't separate them, right, that it is, you know, I remember, we've got a good 50 years ago when I was a young lad, I remember being as principal that said, all learning, this is, it was from biology, that all learning occurs between the organism and its interaction with its environment.
• 45:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know it.
• 45:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
• 45:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
• 45:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting because this idea of why his agency has really taken root in certain communities.
• 45:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's, you know, being a kind of response to, well, first of all, that there are people who have agency in the world who don't seem to have a lot of wisdom sometimes.
• 45:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: But then there are people who do a lot of inner work.
• 45:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, but it doesn't translate into their effectiveness and agency and the world.
• 45:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: So what is it to actually have both together, you know, kind of this and actually at distinction between in and out as you just described is like.
• 45:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: False and I think the coaching community has been maybe a little guilty of.
• 45:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: over-focusing on the inner and invert comments.
• 45:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to come to like how you support leaders into that second order growth.
• 46:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because it seems like, so what you're saying is, you know, we get to a point where that heat, you know, to use the metaphor of the water's enough if that were perturbed.
• 46:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I think this is a great point.
• 46:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: You made it.
• 46:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: The danger is weak, and I see this in the personal development circles.
• 46:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: You get good at regulating yourself, so you actually regulate away that kind of perturbedness.
• 46:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: And you're doing yourself a bit of a disservice there, actually.
• 46:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's sometimes going to expand your capacity.
• 46:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a book that I'm really now about expanding our capacity to feel uncomfortable emotions, which I think is in this territory.
• 46:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: rather than just regulating them away through sensation, working with our bodies.
• 46:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, and it seems like there is a there is a shift like you're describing how second order leaders often have kind of moved into this place where they recognize that
• 47:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: I am creating my world through my cognition, through my sit-the-set of maybe values or beliefs or what I believe the world to be and you could see that also occurring on a collective level, you know, that we have certain collective beliefs like perpetual growth or, you know, that that kind of really govern a lot of the way we interact.
• 47:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: What I'm wondering is, how do you support leaders to change?
• 47:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: And what is the Gestalt of that?
• 47:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because it seems like, as you described, like metacognition is only one of those six kind of elements of the ontological epistemological teleological, phenomenological, and praxis also.
• 47:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, let's get into, how do you actually, someone comes to you and they're like Marvin.
• 47:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm frustrated.
• 47:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: I lost my job or someone, you know, it's something happened and they're stuck, they feel lost or they know they're frustrated because I'm, you know, I'm leading this team and, you know, the same things keep happening.
• 48:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: I want to make change.
• 48:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not happening.
• 48:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: How can I, yeah, how can I evolve myself?
• 48:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
• 48:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Beautiful.
• 48:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 48:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
• 48:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And again, I'm thinking so many different doorways to enter this conversation for this topic.
• 48:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: First, let me just clarify something that the second order change is not a thing, right?
• 48:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a thing unto itself.
• 48:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: As I mentioned before, it is an emergent property.
• 48:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's at a reorganizing, but it's also in linguistically, it's also what we call a comparative deletion, meaning second order compared to what.
• 48:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right, the reference point has been deleted.
• 48:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's second order compared to what.
• 49:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: So because systems are nested, anything that looks second order might not be from a higher order, right?
• 49:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: But from a lower order, it's second order.
• 49:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if someone says, oh, my coaching client came to me and they were highly stressed out.
• 49:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now I've taught them self-regulation skills.
• 49:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now they've learned to be able to manage themselves
• 49:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, was it, right?
• 49:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: From looking at it from the level of what has now changed in the conditions of their life, then being more at ease with those conditions was not second order at all.
• 49:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: However, in the context of them being stressed out and disempowered to their conditions of life, them now being able to self-reulate is absolutely second order.
• 49:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, it's second order compared to what?
• 49:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what's your reference point?
• 49:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we have to start there in terms of the system, okay?
• 49:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So now it goes back to what to do when someone comes.
• 49:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it depends on the context.
• 50:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if they are, and again, I'll also give you my when I'm using the word leader, I'm not necessarily talking about a formal position of authority, okay?
• 50:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean that just because they're seeing your manager, they're a leader, they may or may not be.
• 50:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So someone working at their desk may very well be a leader because they influence a lot of people with their opinions.
• 50:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Even though they don't hold the formal title of being a manager, let's say.
• 50:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they might have to leadership influence.
• 50:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: They might be leading a lot of people in ways of thinking, etc.
• 50:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, I'm not talking about a particular position, but let's say someone comes and they're saying, I'm absolutely frustrated with trying to make changes and I can't get people to get excited about it or even care.
• 50:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's one entry point.
• 50:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's one entry point.
• 50:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: If someone is just saying,
• 50:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Look, you know, I held a pretty important position and I just got a redundancy package, and now I don't know where I'm going now in my life That's a very different entry point.
• 51:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay Despite them being two very different entry points.
• 51:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: I might enter to help them.
• 51:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I might enter along a similar path
• 51:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And to explain what that similar path would be, I might need to focus for your listeners, maybe explain what you were referring to earlier when you're saying, how we're spoken about our leadership, the real leadership function, not position but the function, is a bottom-up immersion property.
• 51:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, if this idea is not already familiar with a lot of your listeners, so the many, many years back, many decades back, Norm Chomsky came to Melbourne, Australia, and Norm Chomsky was a big influence in my particular field as well.
• 51:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: He was at the University of Melbourne giving a lecture.
• 51:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So of course, I have to go.
• 51:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's Norm Jomsky, my gosh, right?
• 51:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he said so many profound things that night, but one of them in particular related to this conversation is he said,
• 52:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: by this time he was still doing a lot of political and social activism and he said you know in his years of of looking at societies and how they how they change and they go through series of revolutions etc and he said he has never seen leadership work in the way that it's typically written up in management books.
• 52:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's never seen somebody or a group of people go away on some retreat or something and they come up with some view-butt vision that's wonderful and come back and sell it to the troops and immobilizes everybody.
• 52:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: He said, he's never seen it actually really work that way.
• 52:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: He said, for him, the real leadership function, not the role, but not the position, not the form of position, but the real leadership function as to what it does to a collective, what it's role is in a collective.
• 52:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: He said, it always started as a grassroots movement, that leadership emerged from the collective.
• 53:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it would bottom up, not top down.
• 53:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're saying there was always a group, a collective, with a shared identity.
• 53:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they were experiencing some kind of existential angst that they couldn't put words to, but they all felt it.
• 53:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was underneath everything, all the concerns, frustrations, all the things they were talking about, all the things they wanted to have happened, but there was something there.
• 53:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the group,
• 53:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: produced out of the group came a person or a group of people that could put words to it, that could put language to it, that could communicate it to it, could communicate it.
• 53:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I said, and once they did, the collective mobilized right behind them because it was already there in their psyche.
• 53:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just so happened to someone to crystallize it.
• 53:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, this is really important to understand that leaders in a living system, the function of leadership is an emergent property.
• 53:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's an immersion property out of the collective, which means the leader has to be part whoever emerges out of there needs to be part of that collective.
• 54:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: They need to have that identity off of that collective.
• 54:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: You have to care.
• 54:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: They have to feel what the group is feeling, right?
• 54:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think I mentioned to you when we first spoke as well that one of my heroes is Gandhi and reading his autobiography, he had this line that I had to put the book down and leave it for a few days.
• 54:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just think about what he just said, right?
• 54:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he said,
• 54:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I could feel the spirit of India awakening within me.
• 54:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, oh, what kind of consciousness the someone have to be coming from?
• 54:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Where the spirit of an entire country was awakening within him.
• 54:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Whoa, that's stunning, isn't it?
• 54:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: But here we have a leader that's an emergent property of the collective.
• 54:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not I'm going to sell you an idea.
• 54:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll get you to buy in what crazy language is that.
• 54:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's like this is what concerns us.
• 54:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a Wii.
• 54:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: There is a Wii equals you, right?
• 55:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: My acutosensei has to do before.
• 55:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll say the background in acutosensei said,
• 55:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: one of the shortest poems he ever heard he said he heard cashiest clay at the time and Muhammad Ali was still cashiest clay was being interviewed and he and cashiest clay said the shortest poem he ever heard was I we that's a cool poem
• 55:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it kind of sums it all up right there, right?
• 55:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it comes out of this immersion property where you feel this.
• 55:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, now this is why this whole sometimes explained that because this is why whether someone says, I'm having, I'm just frustrated in my organization.
• 55:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can't, I'm trying to leave these changes and I'm stuck to someone that just says,
• 55:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've been retention and I'm in a big life change and I don't know what to do for myself now.
• 55:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Those are two really different scenarios, but the entry point is going to be the same.
• 55:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why?
• 55:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because it's going to be bottom-up immersion property.
• 56:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it comes back to borrowing now from, I like to credit my sources.
• 56:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: People say, God, you've mentioned a lot of names.
• 56:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not that I'm name dropping.
• 56:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I like crediting my sources.
• 56:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I learned a lot and continue to learn a lot from Al-Mahs, H-Al-Mahs, and how many you study.
• 56:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it talks about how your concerns and a lot of even your ego fixations are blessings, their gifts, because they are the doorways back to your essence, back to who you are.
• 56:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if I take the person that says, all right, you know, I'm frustrated, I don't know how to lead him.
• 56:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting rebuffed all the way.
• 56:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: The issue isn't a learning levels zero or learning level one, what to do, right?
• 56:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's going to be some what I call generative self-inquiry.
• 56:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, borrowing from all my says work on self-inquiry, but other places have had self-inquiry as well, but I've applied a generative learning lens onto it as well.
• 57:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: and it's saying, great, if we enter two, so if they use the word like frustration, and I haven't seen nonverbals that go with it.
• 57:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not like, oh, I'm frustrated, but they kind of go, I'm frustrated.
• 57:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, if you're going to use those kinds of nonverbals,
• 57:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: to go with that word.
• 57:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: That word is what we call semantically dense or semantically packed, which means that word has a lot of unconscious, somatic connections, right, mentally emotional and somatic connections associated to that word, semantically dense or semantically packed.
• 57:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to enter a via that word.
• 57:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So first thing is, you can't do it without, as we just come back around self-regulation.
• 57:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, here's the difference, for coaches that teach self-regulation.
• 57:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you teach self-regulation as a stress reduction tool, which A is needed, but B, if it's left there, you are now in one of the first, first, one or two forms of first order change, right?
• 58:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's great, you're improved because now you're relaxed, or you're okay, you can fix your stress problem
• 58:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: and all you're doing is turning the heat down.
• 58:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay if that's what's needed.
• 58:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't want the water to go to steam, then turn the heat down.
• 58:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you need it to actually transform, you gotta keep the heat on.
• 58:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: But how do you do it without distress?
• 58:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you move from distress to use stress?
• 58:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's healthy.
• 58:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's where our proposed is going to require metacognition and metametacognition.
• 58:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's going to be very difficult to reach levels of consciousness where you have a lot of facility with your metacognition and metametacognition if you are autonomically stressed or depressed.
• 58:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you do need self-regulation, but as a tool to access a different order of consciousness from which to reorganize the way you're knowing yourself and the way you're knowing the world.
• 58:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's the first doorway in, it's not stress reduction, it's access to a different order of consciousness, a general of a second order consciousness.
• 59:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, get it on yourself, regulate, then I might explore with them a little bit further and saying, so, what is it that's so frustrating?
• 59:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why isn't it frustrating now?
• 59:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: What I say, I don't mean, I want your rationale or I want your story.
• 59:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's going to be another set of semantically dense words that is qualitative.
• 59:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if we come back and have, if I borrow some of the language
• 59:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's going to be certain characteristics or quality as we call it as the philosophical term is, a qualitative experience that is related to as almost calls it your essence.
• 59:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: There is something about your essential self, your essential vibration that is you.
• 59:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Beyond your name, beyond your conditioning, beyond everything that is just essentially with pre-language that is you, of which these words have some kind of resonance to that.
• 1:00:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is that?
• 1:00:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And as I explore things through a generative inquiry process, and I keep tracing, what's
• 1:00:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It flips.
• 1:00:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: It goes from what they don't want to what they do want.
• 1:00:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll see it will naturally occur as long as they're self-regulating.
• 1:00:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: They might go, why is it so important?
• 1:00:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: What makes it so frustrating for you?
• 1:00:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's so important to you that it makes it so frustrating?
• 1:00:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because it seems like people don't care.
• 1:00:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what is it about caring and not caring?
• 1:00:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's so important about, so what if they don't care, what about that?
• 1:00:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it shows that they don't have any self-respect.
• 1:00:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is it about self-respect?
• 1:00:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think they'll start to go, well, they should have intention.
• 1:00:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And also, it's not flipped.
• 1:00:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's gone from what they don't want to.
• 1:00:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're now starting to trace something really important to them.
• 1:00:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And intention might lead to something like choice.
• 1:01:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Choice might lead something to some aspect of a level of consciousness.
• 1:01:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it'll trace it back to an essence point.
• 1:01:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So once we can get them to disidentify, first dissociate, then get meta, then disidentify.
• 1:01:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: To detach from all their representations from the pictures they're making in their head, what they're the story they're telling themselves and the voice tones they go with it.
• 1:01:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Even the body sensations that go with it.
• 1:01:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because the body sensations are reacting to the storyline and the pictures that they're making in their head.
• 1:01:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to just identify that it's not them, then what's left?
• 1:01:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And as we spoke about when we first talk, we're doing now as the process of Alithia, we're now doing unconcealment.
• 1:01:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not I, not this is not me.
• 1:01:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is not me.
• 1:01:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is not me.
• 1:01:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not my pictures.
• 1:01:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not the story.
• 1:01:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even these muscle tensions.
• 1:01:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's because there's a me that notices this.
• 1:01:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: If there's a me that notices this, then I'm not that, which I'm noticing, there's a me that's noticing.
• 1:02:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is that?
• 1:02:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you keep going back farther and farther until all those with left is, and again, I borrow terms from Pytagur now.
• 1:02:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's left is a clearing.
• 1:02:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's left is just a space.
• 1:02:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And Buddhism will be the no thing, no identity, no I.
• 1:02:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's left, and what's left, will be as best as they can experience it at this point of their development would be the closest they will get to consciousness, just an experience of, almost recall it present-sing.
• 1:02:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Their actual way of being is becoming known to themselves at an essence-based level.
• 1:02:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: From here, if you stay connected to that.
• 1:02:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: What would be a natural expression to deal with whatever you've got to deal with?
• 1:02:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because you still got to live in the world, you know, as the Zen saying goes, right?
• 1:02:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just before enlightenment, chopping wood, carrying water, after enlightenment, chopping wood, carrying water.
• 1:03:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: You still have to go live in the world.
• 1:03:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: But can you do it without the ego getting caught up in all of its fixations of what it should be.
• 1:03:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Instead, come back to essence.
• 1:03:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: and express that particular quality that's related to that particular issue.
• 1:03:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: What will be the most natural expression for you to do now?
• 1:03:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's doing nothing at all.
• 1:03:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's all I know exactly what I'll do.
• 1:03:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's no more problem.
• 1:03:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's just you being you doing you in the world.
• 1:03:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's praxis of you doing you in the world.
• 1:03:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, in this particular case, if someone is saying, well, great.
• 1:03:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is the, what is the call to consciousness that is required now?
• 1:03:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, you're now, there's the internal related to the external conditions.
• 1:03:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Your organization is going through what?
• 1:03:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Who is the tribe you identify with?
• 1:03:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is the community you serve of, which you are a part of?
• 1:03:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're feeling all of this frustration, you're like, you haven't cultural angst or whatever it might be, and you're the one that can see it, and you're the one that can put language to it.
• 1:04:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: then it's calling to you to respond.
• 1:04:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because to not respond will be to deny what your essence is trying to express itself into, right?
• 1:04:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what would you naturally want to do next?
• 1:04:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this will now start to be coming and come back to now Joseph Campbell's heroes journey.
• 1:04:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is now the call to adventure.
• 1:04:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is now you're about to embark on your own heroes journey on this one.
• 1:04:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: As a leader, this is a call to your heroes journey.
• 1:04:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, similarly to the person who says, I've just been returned.
• 1:04:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what I'm doing.
• 1:04:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm lost.
• 1:04:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, how are you feeling?
• 1:04:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I don't know who I am anymore.
• 1:04:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so why is it important for you to know who you are?
• 1:04:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, because I need you to have, you know, I've always been, I've always seen myself as someone successful.
• 1:04:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, why success is important to you?
• 1:04:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you can, you probe, you probe, you probe at some point it will flip and it will lead you back to their essence from there.
• 1:05:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like great.
• 1:05:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you connect back to that.
• 1:05:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: What do you want to do next in life?
• 1:05:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: But would express yourself best?
• 1:05:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it just makes life a lot more congruent.
• 1:05:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Shall we do a lot more?
• 1:05:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Literally authentic or self-op.
• 1:05:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: By the word authentic, I don't mean sincere.
• 1:05:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean self-authoring.
• 1:05:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: You are writing your own story here.
• 1:05:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is powerful.
• 1:05:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, I get a sense of this kind of citizenship that could emerge if people,
• 1:05:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: started to recognize that the angst they feel is, you know, is a goal to adventure, and that because they're sensing it is the very, it's a very notation into their leadership, you know?
• 1:05:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 1:05:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: And
• 1:05:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much in what you just shared here that I want to speak about from moment and kind of flip it back to you.
• 1:05:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: One of my mentors Steve March has this coaching school called Alithia.
• 1:06:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to name one of my mentors and sources here and what I find so exciting about what you're describing here is what I've learned from him and what was my own intuition
• 1:06:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: 15 years ago when I came across like integral theory, you know, and there was a lot of conceptual theory and mapping, but then quite quickly, and my friends were like, how do we live this, you know?
• 1:06:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we found a practice called Circling, which was inspired by Heidegger, and it was really about being in the intimacy moment to moment of connection with yourself and others, as it unfolded,
• 1:06:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: trying to change anything.
• 1:06:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: It was all about just making deeper and deeper contact.
• 1:06:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: And suddenly we'd enter the states of I think rapid learning, rapid growth.
• 1:06:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, this is what we're looking for.
• 1:06:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so I feel Steve's work is in the same lineage.
• 1:06:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel yours is too.
• 1:06:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel it's a counter
• 1:06:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: to this self-improvement paradigm, which is kind of proliferated around the world, which can often compound a sense of lack, you know, it's like you want to be somewhere else other than where you are and other than where you are.
• 1:07:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: You're not actually meeting that sense of lack.
• 1:07:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, there may be a set that, you know, almost writes about holes even in some of his works.
• 1:07:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
• 1:07:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so, the way as you're describing into your development is by embracing that tension or that lack that you're feeling rather than trying to get away from it.
• 1:07:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, I'm kind of pivoting to the questions I might have for you.
• 1:07:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, what I learned from Steve is there's like a almost like an ontologically generative metacompetency in his lineage, which is letting be letting unfold deeply inspired by he was also in the diamond approach and I think that's cool.
• 1:07:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's this notion of like you're just helping your clients make deeper and deeper contact with themselves.
• 1:08:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: And as they do their experience unfolds, it reveals more of its depths as you're describing.
• 1:08:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: So beautifully.
• 1:08:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so a question I have for you is is there something like that in what you're describing like it almost like this kind of
• 1:08:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: ontologically generative metacompetency.
• 1:08:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: And when you talk about metacognition and metacognition, this is one of the things that comes up with me.
• 1:08:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things I became dissatisfied with was,
• 1:08:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: And this is what I think was going on with integral theory.
• 1:08:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, I was almost like abstracting more and more out of my experience into concepts.
• 1:08:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it was beautiful, but this move with the Lithia coaching and with circling was almost the opposite.
• 1:08:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: It was like moving into immediacy, like the visceral felt sense vibrational immediacy of experience, which included thinking, you know, Eugene Jenlin's work.
• 1:09:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think has been very influential for me here as well.
• 1:09:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I hear echoes of that and what you show is that a word one brings is so laid and with like, what is unspoken?
• 1:09:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so you can palpate these, these, you know, embodied expressions through like, you know, with your client help them palpate them, so they unfold.
• 1:09:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, are you talking about a similar process too in this, you know, that it's not just met a metacognition, you know, abstracting out into thinking more and more, but it's it's like including our visceral embodied social and body physical,
• 1:09:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: uh... sensorial experience as well and there's a metabolization harmonization uh... uh... uh... an alchemical process unfolding there yes okay yet so answers yes uh... let me explain a bit further though good put some balance to it
• 1:10:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you would have heard in Wilbur's work as well, you know, Wilbur will use the phrase Transand and include when he's working with his hold ons.
• 1:10:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so every time you have an emergent hold on, when you have a nested system, then you have to transcend it, but also include all the previous.
• 1:10:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now,
• 1:10:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: It also relates to the etymology of the word healing.
• 1:10:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're probably aware.
• 1:10:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the etymology of healing is to make whole.
• 1:10:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So health is wholeness.
• 1:10:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so to make whole is a process of integration.
• 1:10:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this is occurs when there's this integration.
• 1:10:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And usually there's a big disagreement between consciousness and body.
• 1:10:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so you'll see it when, for instance, if someone's got, you know, you say a stiff shoulder and they're
• 1:11:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: If the pain signal is there for a continuous period of time after a while, the brain, what calls that sensory signal into awareness simply gets numbed out, it just becomes a constant signal and you just acclimate to it and you num it out.
• 1:11:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So as a result, people will hold certain tensions in their body for a lifetime simply
• 1:11:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right, and a good chunk of a lot of integrative body work, for instance, brings consciousness back into the system where you become aware and then once it reintegrates back into your way of being and the way of doing yourself the way of actually holding yourself and doing yourself, then wellness begins to emerge as an emergent property, right.
• 1:11:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, this notion of integration and wholeness is really important.
• 1:11:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So when you think of the metaphors, we're either going up down left, right, in or out in the directions.
• 1:12:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not either or.
• 1:12:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're trying to integrate them all all together.
• 1:12:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: So when you say for instance, as many people would have experienced similar things, going into something where it's really intellectual and you're going to into a mind space.
• 1:12:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: But then you get disconnected from your body.
• 1:12:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then you can go into a pure bodywork type of space where you get so into your body.
• 1:12:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But then you lose degrees of metacognition because you think your sensations now are it.
• 1:12:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like this is me or I'm now feeling like, okay, so hang on.
• 1:12:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And like how we talked about it before about homeostasis and growth, how they can at one level of consciousness, they appear dichotomous, right?
• 1:12:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: But another level of consciousness, they're integrated, they make whole.
• 1:12:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if something goes only mind or only body, well, you've disintegrated because you're not just one of those.
• 1:13:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're mind, body, emotions, spirit, energy, you're all those.
• 1:13:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: You think of all of these.
• 1:13:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they do come together.
• 1:13:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, to say something that I learned from Rupert Spira, another one of my favorite spiritual teachers.
• 1:13:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: He does some amazing ways of how he articulates spiritual things.
• 1:13:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then I'll bring it back to what you were referring earlier about whether or not my work is aligned to or similar to this this ontological meta competency.
• 1:13:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Rupert's prayer had this lovely little analogy where he was talking about, someone asked him the question around Gurgiev's use of the word self-remembering.
• 1:13:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they asked Rupert's arrow, you know, what did Gurgiev mean when he used the term self-remembering?
• 1:13:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And Rupert's spirit said, yeah, he said, Gurgie, if probably could have used a better term, but that's a term that he used.
• 1:14:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not so much about self-remembering per se, because part of it was the notion that you are who you are and then we forget, because we get caught up in all our ego fixations.
• 1:14:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so he's saying, remember who your true essence is, but it's a bit more than that.
• 1:14:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he did this lovely little analogy.
• 1:14:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, think of it like,
• 1:14:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a mother and her little child, and when the child is really young, it clings to mother, because mothers are all knowing all seeing, and it's safe, and you cling to mother.
• 1:14:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then after a while, the child recognizes as a world outside of mother, and the child looks out into the world, but still holds on to mother.
• 1:14:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then, as the child goes up a little bit, the child starts to kind of reaches out a little bit, still holding on to mother, but reaches out and kind of grabs a few things.
• 1:14:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then, after all, I might go of mother to go and get something, but then it quickly runs back to mother.
• 1:14:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then, over time, it just goes out a little bit farther, stays out a little longer, but comes back to mother.
• 1:15:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Until at some point, it's staying out for a really long period of time until it needs to come back home to the mother.
• 1:15:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then at some point, it can kind of just go on its way, knowing that mother's always there.
• 1:15:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now it's kind of like this when you're doing self-remembering, when you have this consciousness about you, and your consciousness is home, and this is mother.
• 1:15:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you kind of like cling to this a lot, and then over time as we're seeing growth as human beings, we look out into the world.
• 1:15:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: and then we start reaching out.
• 1:15:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: But every now and then the stresses of the world are too much.
• 1:15:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we have to come back home and maybe meditate a little bit or do some reflection or chill out and do a hobby.
• 1:15:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we can come back to who we are.
• 1:15:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then we go back and deal with the world again.
• 1:15:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: But then we need a weekend for a break.
• 1:15:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: But then we'll go back to work again.
• 1:15:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: But at some point we keep going back in and out, in and out, in and out.
• 1:15:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: But when you're actually training your consciousness and you're training your meditation, you train yourself to be at home with mother.
• 1:16:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: While you go out and you deal with the world, and sometimes you deal with the world when you get stressed, but then you have to come back and meditate a little bit.
• 1:16:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you meditate a couple of times a day, after all you might not only need to meditate a couple of days, you know, every couple of days, sometimes once a week, but you keep training yourself to hold this consciousness about you while you deal with the world.
• 1:16:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then at some point, ideally, who knows when, but if you practice enough and you master the state of consciousness,
• 1:16:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: you're able to go out in the world and mothers you just know mothers always there in the back while you deal with the world.
• 1:16:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now this is a lovely little metaphor and in some ways it's
• 1:16:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: teach you to come back to your body and then maybe do self-regulation processes or whatever might be.
• 1:16:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if that's what it is and if that's all it is,
• 1:17:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be helpful, but whether it's really transformational, might be a different question again, transformational compared to what, but it might be different.
• 1:17:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if I learn to get into my body, while I hold this meta cognition about things, this is a very different
• 1:17:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: qualitative competency I'm developing.
• 1:17:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: A very different human capability.
• 1:17:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it doesn't become I'm all in a headspace or I'm all in a body space.
• 1:17:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do I be in a body space while holding a metacognition about it?
• 1:17:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, how do I be in my body while also being aware I'm in my body?
• 1:17:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the same time.
• 1:17:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you train until they become just simply inseparable.
• 1:17:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm in my body.
• 1:17:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: At the same time, I know I'm in my body.
• 1:18:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm aware of it.
• 1:18:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm processing my sensations, but I'm still in my sensations at the same time.
• 1:18:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So at one level of consciousness, it seems dichotomous.
• 1:18:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: You either are yarn.
• 1:18:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: But another, it's like,
• 1:18:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, it can be happening at the same time.
• 1:18:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're just happening at different orders of consciousness.
• 1:18:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's all.
• 1:18:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it becomes different things.
• 1:18:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So in that sense, yes, our work is parallel.
• 1:18:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always, if I'm going to help, France has a penalty before.
• 1:18:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: If I'm teaching someone, for instance, the beginnings, just as usually very early on session one or two, teaching them self-regulation skills,
• 1:18:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: If they're really, if they're highly stressed and their level of metacognition is not that great.
• 1:18:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is a neural pattern.
• 1:18:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: They haven't really developed much yet.
• 1:18:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I might just have to go for a straight, first order, just breathe and relax, right?
• 1:18:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Relax a lot of the traumas and tensions going on.
• 1:18:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I know what that's doing is setting up the neural patterns, what I call it, what in our language, we call the reference structure, the neurological reference structure, from what you can build future generalizations on.
• 1:19:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: because that's what I'm going to hit in future sessions with them.
• 1:19:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if I know that's what I'm doing like, I'm not just limiting them to just a stress relief technique, right?
• 1:19:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm going to come back to it and build on it over time.
• 1:19:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: However, if you do have levels of meta cognition, I'll do that.
• 1:19:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I'll also use something, again, a piece like I said, I pull from everywhere.
• 1:19:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: One of the books, I hope a lot of you listeners have either heard of it or read it and if not they should, it's a book by Julian James called The Origin of Consciousness in the breakdown of the bicamble mind.
• 1:19:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Wonderful book, Life Changing Book, Scary is all heck, because the implications are just huge.
• 1:19:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: But of the many, many great things he said in there with Relevant Here is he's, he uses
• 1:19:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, these were like the fundamental before an instruction of what to do.
• 1:19:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: There is just a mechanism that occurs where loosely using the metaphor mechanism, linguistic metaphor, of something that causes a train of events to occur along a particular path.
• 1:20:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: A good way to explore this is probably a lot of 25 years ago.
• 1:20:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I got introduced to a form of chiropractic called network chiropractic, or net one care, Donald Debtstein's work.
• 1:20:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I went to a demo of it, and I hadn't seen it before, and the car proctor there said, does anyone want to, I'd like to do a demonstration, is anyone want to volunteer?
• 1:20:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 1:20:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll volunteer.
• 1:20:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to experience this thing.
• 1:20:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sounds wonderful.
• 1:20:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I like to experience it.
• 1:20:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he kept saying around how, you know, it's not here.
• 1:20:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he's sending signals and stimuli to the central nervous system, so the central nervous system can reorganize itself.
• 1:20:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: that all very second order and I really love the concept.
• 1:20:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was wondering how the heck did this actually work in practice.
• 1:20:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to instruct to do anything and I'm thinking, I don't see how that's possible, right?
• 1:21:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: In my mind, I'm critiquing it, just going, I don't see how that's possible because
• 1:21:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: without some kind of context or guidelines, this would just simply be noise.
• 1:21:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're doing a touch or a sound, it's just noise to my central nervous system.
• 1:21:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And all you're doing is increasing
• 1:21:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: entropy.
• 1:21:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going increasing of variety.
• 1:21:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand how it works.
• 1:21:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then he had me breathing, he had me doing some particular type of breathing up and down.
• 1:21:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then he made a comment to the group and he said, okay, let's see what his central nervous system does with this and then he did a light touch on my back.
• 1:21:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And as soon as he said it, I thought to myself,
• 1:21:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's the structure that will now cause the immersion property to happen.
• 1:21:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: He sent the system into a trajectory.
• 1:22:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: There was no instruction.
• 1:22:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was just a structure that just now shaped the direction.
• 1:22:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: My system of the system is going to reorganize into.
• 1:22:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there we go.
• 1:22:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: That would be the ontologically generative metamity competency.
• 1:22:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in some ways, it is an ontological, in an emergent, an emergent ontological nudge.
• 1:22:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
• 1:22:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not, you know, it doesn't seem where it should go.
• 1:22:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing.
• 1:22:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing.
• 1:22:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Conditions for it to go in a particular direction.
• 1:22:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
• 1:22:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 1:22:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: For, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for,
• 1:22:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: If I facilitate second order chain say in cultures, you're doing systemic nudging and you're watching the qualia, the qualitative direction in which it's emerging and you look from not just to shape it in a useful direction, but you have no idea what form it's going to take because it's emerging, right?
• 1:22:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know, we just want to make sure it doesn't emerge in a dysfunctional way.
• 1:23:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: because that, that too, can happen, right?
• 1:23:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so this is what, what's going to happen.
• 1:23:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, come back to your context, there's going to be a continual balancing of metameter cognition with whatever work I'm doing, even if it's so madac.
• 1:23:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: where they're doing self-regulation or whether I'm doing, like, uh, uh, uh, uh, using glenons work on focusing on particular areas that we're going to enter through there or whatever it might be.
• 1:23:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but there's always going to be the integration of making wholeness of a consciousness aspect.
• 1:23:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's also going to be a heart intelligence aspect.
• 1:23:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I mentioned you before my colleague and I from 2012 published a book on the findings at the time of three complex adaptive neural networks that are technically brains, but not metaphorically, technically they are functioning brains.
• 1:23:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: You head heart and you're good.
• 1:23:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they have different signals, they do different things.
• 1:23:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when you tap into their intelligence, it's a completely different game.
• 1:23:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you need to have met a cognition, otherwise all it is is,
• 1:23:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, Disneyland, all it is is a good ride and and people mistake a transformer of experience for what we call the plus k or what's we call the positive kinesthetic right someone feels great it feels profound and they kind of go that was that was profound that was I was transformational was it just a big feeling right nothing wrong with the big you know the difference because you yeah
• 1:24:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Six domains, all right, that's a show up and one of the things we in terms of medical and medical and we'll hear it in your language, we'll hear it in the very structure of your narratives, we'll start to change.
• 1:24:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right, and we'll hear it, we can see it in your way of being, you'll see it so medically, you'll see it, you'll be holding your posture differently, you'll be walking differently.
• 1:24:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Your movements will have a different qualitative aspect to them.
• 1:24:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 1:24:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it'll come back to very common things, you'll see.
• 1:24:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can use words like centeredness, more groudness, more whatever, but whatever words
• 1:25:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: many similar things, and I think almost is right, which is, while there's something unique about the individual, there's no question, there is also something really common.
• 1:25:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: to all all forms of human essence, because we all are a fractal of part of the one.
• 1:25:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to see really common things.
• 1:25:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we see it in wisdom traditions across millennia.
• 1:25:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are all these similar terms for these higher orders of consciousness in ways of being.
• 1:25:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they might call it specifically different labels, but they're going to be really similar.
• 1:25:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: I have one last question.
• 1:25:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm aware of our times.
• 1:25:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, if I died in an order.
• 1:25:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: In a way, you've just segue beautifully into it, because when you spoke earlier about, in a sense, you're helping clients when they come to you to disidentify from the shaping the patterning
• 1:26:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: and then they kind of open into essence.
• 1:26:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: That really speaks to me, I think, of this universal journey of transformation that I've noticed, and Steve talks about these four depths.
• 1:26:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: parts, process, presence and non-duality and how, you know, we open into deeper depths, although the goal is not to do that.
• 1:26:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: If the goal is more fluidity, because these depths are going to keep arising and so it's more, but I see that in other places where it's like, yeah, there's a contraction and identification, a reaction, reactivity, and then through
• 1:26:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: the way we can be with ourselves with a coach who helps us, you know, make it okay where we are and become curious and make deeper contact with ourselves and and there's a sense making taking place.
• 1:27:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're present seeing as you described and often there's an opening, a shift that occurs the identification releases and we open into this
• 1:27:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, this place of essence where often I've noticed with clients they contact particular qualities like love, strength, capacity and you know, almost right about this.
• 1:27:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's those qualities of presence that are the healing agents
• 1:27:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: also for that level of contraction that was occurring there earlier.
• 1:27:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: So they were not caught in the game of you know trying to solve the problem from the same level of consciousness that created it.
• 1:27:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like it's the expanded states that are the healing factor.
• 1:27:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: So my question is
• 1:27:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, and maybe the complex decision making has to be in our part too.
• 1:27:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because I really want to talk to you about that, that's really, I really want to talk to you about that.
• 1:28:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: But my question now is,
• 1:28:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: How do you see, and you just are talking about this, actually.
• 1:28:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe it's a moved question, but in my mind, the shift is, instead of the old paradigm self-improvement, I'm here, and now I've got a vision of where I want to be, and I'm going to strive to get to that place, but it's often coming from those parts that don't feel like, in the field of sense of lack and et cetera, it's like the new structure
• 1:28:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, out of this process of inquiry, and you can't necessarily define what that will be.
• 1:28:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: It emerges, but there's a kind of intelligence to the way we unfold.
• 1:28:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you see it similar to that, you know, that, you know, a leader suddenly, if we kind of, this is the way I get really curious, because I find myself in this situation, a leader is in a system,
• 1:29:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: And as a sense, this just in wants to transform.
• 1:29:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: But hey, I'm at my edge and my capacity here.
• 1:29:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you find then that through this process, you're describing the leader will start to have new insights around who they can be, how they can hold presence, how they can
• 1:29:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, support that level of perturbing in that system.
• 1:29:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you find that that's, yeah, I'm losing my question a little bit, but I think you get there.
• 1:29:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think I think I get it.
• 1:29:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:29:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:29:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, like all things, the short answer and a longer answer.
• 1:29:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: The short answer is yes, but there's a bit more on the longer side.
• 1:29:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a bit more contextualization that has to happen.
• 1:29:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: The first thing is, in terms of the class state performance improvement style of coaching approach, there are contexts where that is 100% appropriate.
• 1:29:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what's needed and that's cool.
• 1:30:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, it's just that my context is around helping develop or revolve second order leaders and often it's not a performance improvement issue.
• 1:30:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: It comes back to, you know, this bottom up leadership, you know, you got to connect to self then what are you resonating with that's part of the collective now serve the collective by by stepping up and enabling the collective to reorganize.
• 1:30:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because one of one of the things I'll have second order change works and again, this will be probably the next conversation around systems that complex decision making.
• 1:30:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that enable second order to, second order emergent properties to arise is that the rules between the agents change, the rules of relating and interacting change.
• 1:30:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, as long as the rules stay the same and the agents, all the operatives in a system or whatever, have to operate within the same rules and the same mode of relating, the emergent properties will always be what they are.
• 1:30:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right, names and faces may change, but it will be the same, same game.
• 1:30:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: The game won't change until the rules change, until we can know it.
• 1:31:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've got our license to be able to interact with each other differently.
• 1:31:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then immersion properties change.
• 1:31:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I can interact with different people differently.
• 1:31:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then immersion properties start to change.
• 1:31:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the system is a system because of its relationships between the parties.
• 1:31:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's an important thing.
• 1:31:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: With an individual, it's saying an organization that wants to do some real transformative change.
• 1:31:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes the larger system, e.g.
• 1:31:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: the organization or the society or whatever or the industry or whatever, you're going to label as the system where we're going to put the boundaries on the system.
• 1:31:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes the system is not up for that.
• 1:31:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: and it doesn't want that, and despite the fact that it might need it, but it's not ready for it, or again, the system thinking the language will be, it has enough requisite variety or systemic variety where it can neutralize, it has more options to neutralize change to it than any change program has to change the system itself, right?
• 1:32:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so as a result, sometimes someone who's really
• 1:32:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: The system that they're in or the part of the system that they're in is low leverage for whole system change and in fact it might be impossible from where they are, which means they might need to leave those conditions.
• 1:32:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: they might need to go somewhere else, either somewhere else in the system or exit the system altogether to find somewhere else that they can make a difference that matters to them, because pretty much no individual will have all the requisite variety required within themselves to change an entire system.
• 1:32:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: The unless they can mobilize parts of the system that are critical, that we will call critical balancing loops, where the system will then reorganize around those balancing loops, unless they can do that,
• 1:33:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: they're going to get absorbed by the system.
• 1:33:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes it just comes to realization that it's like, even if they could, is it worth it?
• 1:33:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it worth the time and effort or could they actually get better traction and make real second order difference somewhere else?
• 1:33:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's more important.
• 1:33:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe come back and influence the system later at another point or whatever it might be.
• 1:33:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it could very well be at this point and time the system is too stabilized.
• 1:33:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: right now.
• 1:33:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, because back to also the chaos point, by the way, I'm glad to remind me on this, which are question, which is, you know at that point, when, when, if we go back to the analogy I was using, where the water is beginning to boil oil, and maybe it's boiling, but it hasn't gone into full blown steam as of yet, right?
• 1:33:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just right at that threshold, and you see the water bubbling away, like crazy.
• 1:33:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: You see, you see the water very agitated.
• 1:33:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's very important to realize that transformation, the reorganization of a system occurs at the point when the system is the most unstable.
• 1:34:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's when it can reorganize.
• 1:34:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: The more stable the system is, the harder it is to reorganize.
• 1:34:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because it's stable.
• 1:34:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, part of the job of a good leader making transformation change is to destabilize a lot of key stabilizing structures or they're gonna get neutralized.
• 1:34:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, sometimes when the individual is recognizing that to lead real transformational change, what it's gonna take to destabilize the system, the cost is too great at a personal level.
• 1:34:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you can see it in politics.
• 1:34:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: If a real politician want to make real change, they better be out for getting personally attacked, investigated, the media nailing them, like forces will rise to try neutralize them, despite their good intentions.
• 1:35:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And people that are power brokers, the last thing they want is the system to change, because they will destabilize their power base.
• 1:35:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they're going to amass forces covert and overt to neutralize real change, right, in many ways, and so unless you're up for it.
• 1:35:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: You might think there must be a better way.
• 1:35:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so this is why often I find a lot of people that are really into leading real societal change, they don't go into politics.
• 1:35:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: They figure out something else.
• 1:35:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: They might create a social enterprise so they might do something else.
• 1:35:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: But they're not gonna put their hand up to be a politician because they're just gonna get, it'll just be a power game left and right.
• 1:35:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, but anyway, come back to that point.
• 1:35:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, come back to your question then.
• 1:35:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they learn to hold themselves that are under pressure.
• 1:36:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, we've got several programs now, right now, like what we call leading under pressure, which is exactly that, under pressure when everything is, is like a better metaphor, is causing your brain to downshift, right?
• 1:36:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Your blood flow wants to pull away from your executive center, and your prefrontal cortex.
• 1:36:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to drive your limbic system.
• 1:36:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to drive your brainstem to go into reactive responses.
• 1:36:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, Polyvagal Theory will be in full flight where you're going to go into fight flight or freeze responses.
• 1:36:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 1:36:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: At one point, where is the consciousness for leadership now?
• 1:36:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So without being able to hold your presence, it's not just self-regulation, but you have to connect to why the hell are we here in the first, why are you there in the first place?
• 1:36:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's so important to you that you would withstand this kind of pressure and be able to roll with it?
• 1:36:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, because it's so important to you and who you are at a deep essence level.
• 1:36:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is one of the first things we'll call a leadership anchor line.
• 1:37:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: You have to be really connected to who you are and what is the quality of your way of being that needs to be maintained under specific high pressure situations.
• 1:37:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you got to name these high pressure situations.
• 1:37:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: right when you're called out in a public mode when you are time pressed for a critical decision when there are when stakeholders want you to make what you know is going to be the wrong decision but there's consequences if you go with the right decision right under these types of conditions you have to remind yourself who am I what do I stand for at this point in time right what what am I here for and honestly unless you can come back to that you're going to
• 1:37:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: So these are these are things that that need to be trained and so Come back like I said contextualizing it though sometimes it might find
• 1:37:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, while I'm holding my presence, I might realize I need to be somewhere else.
• 1:38:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is just powerful.
• 1:38:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to unpack this further in our second conversation.
• 1:38:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: And just as to ground this as we start to wrap up, like if someone is, and I know this as you said, it depends on the context, you know.
• 1:38:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: But if someone is sat with
• 1:38:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: what they feel is an invitation into a generative learning, you know, second order learning within themselves in their life and somehow.
• 1:38:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: What, you know, could you share like a couple of like questions, they might ask themselves to help them
• 1:38:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: to kind of start to access a generative level of learning.
• 1:38:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a, you know, other, like a cup, you know, and again, I get that, you know, it really depends on the context and specific instance.
• 1:38:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I wonder if they might be a kind of general couple of questions on might be able to ask themselves if they find themselves in that what they feel is that place.
• 1:39:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because there's there are, I'm just thinking though, how many of them require neurological reference structures to do well first, but maybe I can start by studies explaining some of them.
• 1:39:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: So first is recognizing
• 1:39:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you know, start with assuming, okay, regardless, if someone is feeling stressed out whether or whether it's anxiety, some form of anxiousness or whether it's some form of depression or lethargy or apathy.
• 1:39:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: either or.
• 1:39:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just know that you won't be able to do much in your work if you can't self-regulate.
• 1:39:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're going to have to regulate your autonomic nervous system, come back to autonomic coherence right through through your diaphragmatic breathing, etc.
• 1:39:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you've got any other vagus nerve calming type exercises or things of that nature then do that is first step.
• 1:39:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's one where you have to I have to train some of my clients this way.
• 1:39:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like don't think don't analyze Don't try and figure out what you need to do next.
• 1:40:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's there's only one thing you just have to zero learning wrote memory do Breathe diaphragmatically come back to autonomic coherence.
• 1:40:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can't go anywhere without that
• 1:40:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: You won't figure out anything if you're stressed or depressed.
• 1:40:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Forget it.
• 1:40:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just try and get back to some form of regulation.
• 1:40:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: The point being, get to regulation enough where you can get to the first degree of metacognition.
• 1:40:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you have to remember as the phrase, the map is not the territory.
• 1:40:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Call Africa Zipkis term from general semantics.
• 1:40:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you have to remember that there's only six building blocks in which we are creating our subjective world.
• 1:40:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's only six building blocks, right?
• 1:40:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, these six, though, are quite complicated.
• 1:40:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's lots of minor things underneath, but at the highest level, there's only six things.
• 1:40:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's your five sentences, and then there's language.
• 1:41:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: It says, what you see here, feel smell taste, and then your stories, your language, right?
• 1:41:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, first thing to recognize is whatever's going on in your head about,
• 1:41:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: reality your frustrations or what do you think you want to do a generative self and quarry on or whatever it might be.
• 1:41:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: A concern you might have an issue that's going on.
• 1:41:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Recognize you're not responding to anything out there.
• 1:41:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: What you're responding to right now is a picture you're making in your head.
• 1:41:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: or some movie of it, something you're telling yourself about it is some kind of voice tonality.
• 1:41:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're holding some body sensations connected to that, connected to that story and those images.
• 1:41:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if it's appropriate, there might be smells and tastes.
• 1:41:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what you're responding to.
• 1:41:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the first step is, this associate from them and recognize what are the pictures I make it in my head?
• 1:41:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: What am I saying to myself?
• 1:42:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are my body sensations that's connected to this?
• 1:42:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: What smells and taste, if it's appropriate, are involved here.
• 1:42:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, what's the story, than the language I'm using for all of this?
• 1:42:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Disassociate, get meditative and disidentify from it.
• 1:42:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Recognize the fact that you see a picture in your head means you're not the picture.
• 1:42:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that you hear yourself talking to yourself means you're not the one talking to yourself because you're noticing that.
• 1:42:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that you notice your body sensations means you're not your body alone.
• 1:42:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a youth that's aware of what your body is experiencing.
• 1:42:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: So step point disidentify from all of that.
• 1:42:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Don't get caught up on it.
• 1:42:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: All of drama is within those representations, within those maps.
• 1:42:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So step away and what's left, what's left is just you observing.
• 1:42:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, from here, now I ask yourself, what's so important to me about this?
• 1:43:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, if that's what's important to me, what's important to me about that?
• 1:43:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, if that's what's important, what's important about that?
• 1:43:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And just keep going until at some point, you know, reach a point that's going to be far more ontological.
• 1:43:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's something that's going to be far more.
• 1:43:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh gosh, it's about.
• 1:43:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: this and you'll feel it.
• 1:43:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: It'll feel different.
• 1:43:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: As Almas says, personcing is a different feel than a personcing of joy is different than the feeling of joy.
• 1:43:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can feel joy, yes.
• 1:43:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: But when joy is personcing, it's an ontological personcing.
• 1:43:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: It feels heavier, more substantial, more solid, more real.
• 1:43:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a fleeting emotion.
• 1:43:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're trying to chase, what is, and it's not your total essence, either.
• 1:43:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's only one aspect of your essence that's related to this particular issue.
• 1:43:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: That seems to be prominent in this specific issue.
• 1:44:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, if that's the thing, how do I be, you know, keep embodying this, this present thing, and just, what do I do now?
• 1:44:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's a natural practice from here?
• 1:44:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: What would I just do?
• 1:44:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you just keep asking yourself what's important but what's so fresher, I'll give you, I don't know if I told you the story, I'll give you this example.
• 1:44:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And for the other year, any of you listeners that know the Enagram, so just FYI, so, left to my own devices if I kind of go unconscious then I'm going to get fixated at the Enagram, one point, and subtype self-pres, and it's certainly after COVID lockdowns.
• 1:44:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in Melbourne here we had the hardest lockdowns in the world.
• 1:44:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the first places, once the lockdowns got lifted, one of the first places that went berserk was the hairdressers.
• 1:44:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now back then, after, after, after, because everybody just had, you know, we were looking like, you know, Wolfman Jack and, um, back then I had it here at the time too, right?
• 1:45:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so,
• 1:45:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: I listen to you and I go to this this particular barber and it's one of those where you don't make reservations You just gotta rock up right and then it's one where you just rock up and then you go into whoever's available next But there's only one guy that I like so not only that I have to stand in a queue when I got there Then I stopped the way to make sure it was the guy that I particularly wanted and the queue was really long It was really was really long after COVID lockdowns and I'm in front of this guy with a family and he's got kids
• 1:45:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm, and the queue's already long, and I'm thinking, oh, no, you know, the, it's got the kids.
• 1:45:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I hope he's not, this doesn't end up where he happens to be going to the guy that I want, because I've done that before, where the guy now has to cut all the kids here, and now it takes him, you know, what should have been one turn, now it becomes three, four turns, I gotta wait.
• 1:45:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, sure enough, it's going through, I already had to wait an hour and a half before we got to the front door just in the queue.
• 1:46:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a long it took.
• 1:46:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, an hour and a half later, I'm at the front queue, and I'm watching and sure enough,
• 1:46:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: the guy that I want frees up just in time for the guy in front of me and his family to go to the guy I want, right, I'm going, all right, and by this time I am fuming, for those for the people that know the any grammar one fixation, right, I am mega pissed off, right, and I'm seeing people, you know, going wide past me because I've got to wait now multiple turns and I am just
• 1:46:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm getting so unresourcedful that I catch myself, right?
• 1:46:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm thinking, this is really, like, unenlightened.
• 1:46:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is really low level.
• 1:46:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really ashamed embarrassed of myself on this one.
• 1:46:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I said, all right, what am I upset about?
• 1:46:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: What am I so attached to here?
• 1:47:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, well, God, you know, of all the, it just my, my lock and the person now in front of me and I shouldn't have to wait this long and, you know, and he shouldn't have had to bring his whole family.
• 1:47:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I hear all these shudds in my language, all right?
• 1:47:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going, well, all right.
• 1:47:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So let me just catch this.
• 1:47:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what actually is the problem?
• 1:47:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is I shouldn't have to wait this long.
• 1:47:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, how should it go?
• 1:47:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm asking myself this, um, it should just be easy and flow along.
• 1:47:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and if that happened, what does that do for me?
• 1:47:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's the one talking about that?
• 1:47:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, then I could relax.
• 1:47:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, and if I could relax, what does that do for me?
• 1:47:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's the one important about that?
• 1:47:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well,
• 1:47:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: then I would feel at ease.
• 1:47:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so if I did that, what's the point of that?
• 1:48:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, then I would feel more peace.
• 1:48:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, okay, so I feel more peace.
• 1:48:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's the point of that?
• 1:48:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, then I would know everything's okay.
• 1:48:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, and everything's okay.
• 1:48:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's the point of that?
• 1:48:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's the
• 1:48:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, then so if I felt good about myself, what's the point of that?
• 1:48:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's important about that?
• 1:48:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, then I would remember that I was actually connected back to God's consciousness.
• 1:48:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, and if you did that, what's the point of that?
• 1:48:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well then I would just be in flow, and that's what I went.
• 1:48:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really big about being in flow, flows a really important thing, right?
• 1:48:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a real vibration, yeah, essence vibration for me.
• 1:48:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: I went, then it came back to some basic things around.
• 1:49:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's do 11 cents work on letting go.
• 1:49:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Letting go process.
• 1:49:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's like, okay.
• 1:49:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Could I be in flow now?
• 1:49:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I could.
• 1:49:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: so that I borrow some baron caties work.
• 1:49:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: So when you think the thought that it shouldn't be happening, what does that do to you being?
• 1:49:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it takes me out of flow.
• 1:49:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so is there any real reason why I should hold onto that thought?
• 1:49:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: No.
• 1:49:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: The back door left to 11 since work.
• 1:49:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So could I let that thought go?
• 1:49:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:49:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Am I willing to let it go?
• 1:49:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:49:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: When could I let it go?
• 1:49:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: No.
• 1:49:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:49:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, great, where'd it go?
• 1:49:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Where's it leave me?
• 1:49:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Back in flow.
• 1:49:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I tell ya, I was looking at that guy getting his hair cut.
• 1:49:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's getting hair cut.
• 1:49:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, what a nice family they are.
• 1:49:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, thank God they showed up in front of me because I just had one major self-learning lesson here.
• 1:50:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would never have had if they hadn't stood in the garden in front of me and got me so upset and bring me back to myself that it wasn't just the fact that I was back in flow.
• 1:50:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was the fact that
• 1:50:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were, I would never have figured this, I would never have come back to this, if they hadn't been there in front of me.
• 1:50:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love them for it.
• 1:50:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was just like, ah, far out.
• 1:50:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is great.
• 1:50:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was a great afternoon.
• 1:50:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was one of the better reviews that story a lot in my journey.
• 1:50:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like this is one of the better afternoon ever.
• 1:50:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: That reminds me of how I think an important shift in my own development in our clients is when you start to see that those challenging moments are a gift, they're actually the portal into our own unfolding.
• 1:51:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: how I see this with my clients and my own experiences and I'm mindful we're going to open up another question, but there's a process of dissociation from the way of being the contraction with its thinking and acceptance, body and body and you beautifully describe that and then
• 1:51:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, once you inquire, what's important about that, you get to, you know, peace.
• 1:51:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: And often I notice, that's when I'm, well, peace and it starts to show up, you know?
• 1:51:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: I might notice like, oh, as I notice, peace is important, I'm actually connecting to a sense of peace.
• 1:51:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: And you took that further, that's very interesting to me because often I'll, might stay with, well, it's just stay with peace, you know?
• 1:52:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: If peace is here right now,
• 1:52:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I might even invite clients to be peace.
• 1:52:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's it for me and in process of now it's identifying with that essential quality.
• 1:52:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, as peace, you know, or if you go deeper as flow, you know, what's true about this situation and for you, it was like, oh, well, what a beautiful family, you know?
• 1:52:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm kind of tying this up with what you said earlier about for me, there's a way where when people drop into essence,
• 1:52:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: there's a kind of spontaneous intelligence in that that it has a particular way of seeing and being, which is quite different than when I'm in that contracted space, and there's more strategic kind of effort and it's.
• 1:52:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, I mean, Marvin, I know we've gone way over and I'm just really delighted to be with you and you're so generous and you're sharing, and that was really beautiful example that I think tied a lot together.
• 1:53:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah, I just want to say like it's real a real joy to talk with you and, um, where can people find out more about your work, too, you know, I imagine like me, there's a lot of people listening you want to learn from you and, yeah, there's a couple, there's a couple of places, um, the, uh,
• 1:53:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: The, where a test neurobehavioral modeling is probably the starting point, so there's there's uh, behavioralmodeling.com, there's built British style behavioral modeling and then I'm about to launch.
• 1:53:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a placeholder website there for professional change agents network we're working with um,
• 1:53:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: second order change agents ranging from consultants to leaders in authority positions as well as coaches.
• 1:53:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right now, the place all the website is pkand.online so pcan.online and then there's my own coaching website, which is more of an oka.com.
• 1:54:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyone of those?
• 1:54:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything you want to share or it's just a kind of closing statement?
• 1:54:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, probably the only thing is maybe to contextualize, you know, I felt very early on.
• 1:54:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I started to identify, there were, there were three types of approaches to coaching.
• 1:54:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then of course, there's a fourth, which is the hybrid, the fluidity between them.
• 1:54:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's important to know which one you are and therefore not to the lump of all coaching into one thing.
• 1:54:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, there is performance coaching.
• 1:54:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, the performance coaching, the most obvious things will be like sports coaches.
• 1:54:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: but also a lot of business coaches are performance coaches and they are the ones that will go this is the goal you want and so let me coach you about how to get there and how to achieve that goal and there's clearly a time in place for that and the way that's appropriate this process based coaching which is more life like life coaches and they have process questions, they have process formats and they don't necessarily have all the answers themselves but they can they've got a process as to help you find your own answers to types of things
• 1:55:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: and then there's the inner work coaches and the inner work coaches can there's different types of inner work ranging from just clarity all the way to things like because we've been talking about vertical change or evolving consciousness within the client and everywhere in between and sometimes you have to do a blend of them all but just recognize what type of coaching is needed when not everybody needs transformational coaching.
• 1:55:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Some people just want to get stuff done.
• 1:55:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, yeah, okay, that's fine.
• 1:55:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: For others, they might need transformational coaching but they're not ready for it yet.
• 1:55:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so you might have to enter with either performance coaching or process-based coaching as an entry to doorway until they're more psychologically ready or receptive to be able to get into some of the deeper in our work type of things.
• 1:56:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: But for some people, it, you know, as I said, one of the core domains of transformation is practice.
• 1:56:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Where does it show up?
• 1:56:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if someone, like Francis, one of the entry programs for the professional change and SNET work is what I call your theory of transformational change.
• 1:56:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the whole program about how to develop how you think transformational change really works.
• 1:56:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And therefore we have to introduce things like middle language, like second order change, immersion properties.
• 1:56:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Understand, first principles of how
• 1:56:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: of how systems and consciousness evolves and how it reorganizes what methodologies lend themselves to more second order work, etc.
• 1:56:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a whole thing around your theory of transfer is no change.
• 1:56:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So part of it now is this.
• 1:56:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like if you think, if your theory of transformational change is the person's qualitative experience at the end of your coaching session, that's one theory of change.
• 1:57:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: In my particular approach, I want to see praxis, which means there might need to be some performance coaching or process coaching involved that basically saying, given now your new awareness of yourself or the new way that you now know yourself.
• 1:57:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: What changes in the way that you actually do, chopping wood and carrying water, like what specific things?
• 1:57:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what are some of the things you'd like to investigate or explore how that could be different for you?
• 1:57:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you've got to need to bring it back to some basic performance coaching.
• 1:57:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not done as a prescriptive.
• 1:57:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll help you get from here here.
• 1:57:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there has to be something where, unless there's going to be a praxis.
• 1:57:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: to this.
• 1:57:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: For all you know, it was just a good feeling that ended up with, all right?
• 1:57:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think understanding these three types of coaching and blending them and integrating and knowing when to use which and what right ratio and balance is going to be an important thing that you can't just discard one or the other.
• 1:58:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for highlighting that kind of not being a, like a, you know, a hammer seeing nails everywhere and being a hammer, but being sensitive to what's needed.
• 1:58:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: Marvel, yeah, Marvel, and thank you so much.
• 1:58:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll refrain from asking questions about what you just said, and let's do part 2.
• 1:58:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, that's so much great.
• 1:58:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: I hope, I hope it, hell, I mean, I've seen you've had so many very impressive people in your podcast.
• 1:58:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, what's they can go, what am I going to tell Joel?
• 1:58:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: here we are we're at the end of the podcast just a heads up again if you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create then head to coaches rising dot com put your name in the sign-up box there you'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there and just want to end by wishing you well and I'll see you again next time