Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / Codependency: What Does It Mean And How To Work On Interdependence Instead

Transcript

Codependency: What Does It Mean And How To Work On Interdependence Instead · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi guys and welcome to the doctor psych mom show.
• 0:09
  I promised you last time that I would talk about codependency
• 0:11
  and what that means. And so I'm going to do that
• 0:14
  today when people talk about codependency, you know, like
• 0:20
  many terms, I talk about emotional labor, a lot.
• 0:23
  As one of these things get changed around in the popular
• 0:27
  media and they start to mean just a whole host of things that
• 0:31
  they were never intended to mean and so I really To delineate,
• 0:36
  what a codependent relationship looks like and to separate that
• 0:40
  from what an interdependent relationship looks like, which
• 0:42
  is really a positive thing. Before I go any further, if you
• 0:47
  have not subscribed, please do subscribe for 4.99 a month,
• 0:51
  you're going to get access to all of my bonus content.
• 0:53
  All of my other episodes, I feel like by now, there's over 10
• 0:58
  bonus episodes that you can listen to.
• 1:01
  And that really helps me maintain the motivation to keep
• 1:05
  This going it's kind of hard to talk to yourself every week yet
• 1:09
  a lot more immediate feedback with the Social Media stuff that
• 1:14
  I got, my likes right away. But this look kind of talking
• 1:17
  into a vacuum. Although I do get emails that
• 1:19
  say it's helpful so that keeps things moving along and whenever
• 1:22
  somebody subscribes, then I see that you like it.
• 1:26
  So anyhow, what codependency means is it's really this
• 1:31
  symbiotic relationship where people Cannot exist without each
• 1:36
  other and I'm probably misusing symbiotic because biology is not
• 1:40
  my strong suit. So semiotic has like a real
• 1:43
  positive connotation. What I mean is it's really
• 1:46
  anything where the people they really depend on each other to
• 1:51
  live. Now, you shouldn't really depend
• 1:52
  on your partner to live, you know, whether it's emotionally
• 1:55
  or in really point of fact in in like physically, because you
• 2:00
  need to be your own independent person, particularly if you have
• 2:03
  kids, you do not want your kids to see That basically mommy
• 2:07
  cannot function without daddy at all.
• 2:10
  You know that's kind of terrifying because what if some
• 2:12
  shit happens to Daddy and what there are many ways that
• 2:17
  codependency can happen and by the way, of course or what about
• 2:20
  that, he can be fucked function without Mommy if not then that's
• 2:24
  also, you know, very scary for kids and also makes them not
• 2:27
  respect the partner that is acting like the child in this
• 2:30
  way. So, what do I mean?
• 2:33
  So there's many ways. So, the most common one talked
• 2:36
  about in the media, is when one person is a substance abuser.
• 2:41
  And the other person kind of takes care of everything, the
• 2:44
  movie that I always tell people to talk to watch about
• 2:47
  codependency is the Meg, Ryan, movie about her being an
• 2:52
  alcoholic, and which I will link you to because I am not
• 2:57
  remembering that in this moment, even though I constantly Say
• 3:01
  that people should watch that movie, but it's going to be in
• 3:03
  my description, and in this movie, she starts out as an
• 3:09
  alcoholic, but he takes care of everything, Andy Garcia, he
• 3:12
  takes care of everything with the kids and with the house so
• 3:16
  that she's really kind of like his child.
• 3:18
  You know, and only when she has this like, tremendously bad
• 3:22
  thing happened, as she start to get her shit together, and when
• 3:25
  she does, then things change. So, in a codependent
• 3:28
  relationship, if one person does not remain, Eek and problematic.
• 3:33
  Then the other person cannot be happy in any real meaningful
• 3:39
  way. This relationship is predicated
• 3:42
  upon one being very weak and basically like the child and the
• 3:47
  other person being strong on the parent.
• 3:49
  So when somebody for example who's an alcoholic quits
• 3:52
  drinking their entire relationship needs to be reject
• 3:56
  gerd because it doesn't work how it has been.
• 4:01
  In the dynamic, no longer makes sense.
• 4:04
  The person who is now not drinking, they're trying to
• 4:07
  build themselves up as an independent normative.
• 4:12
  Functional human being and the other person.
• 4:14
  Now, like, doesn't have anything to do.
• 4:17
  It's like as though your newborn baby just turned into an 18 year
• 4:19
  old. And you're, like, what happened?
• 4:21
  I'm not needed anymore and it's usually it's an unconscious, but
• 4:24
  when the couple is in couples counseling, any codependency
• 4:29
  will hopefully be sus Out and discuss such that.
• 4:32
  Both people see how this codependent Dynamic was really
• 4:37
  important for both people, including the one who is doing
• 4:40
  everything the over function. ER, if you refer back to that
• 4:44
  podcast, oh, it's When a Man Loves a Woman that just came
• 4:48
  back to me. The Meg Ryan movie is When a Man
• 4:50
  Loves a Woman so everybody should put it on there, you
• 4:52
  know, I'm as on prime or Netflix queue right now and I can link
• 4:55
  to it. But anyway it's so both partners
• 4:59
  are psychologically dependent. On this Dynamic where one is
• 5:02
  strong and one is weak. So another common example of
• 5:07
  codependency is when you got one partner, who does everything
• 5:11
  because the other one is just they're not drinking but they
• 5:16
  have something like ADHD or they're just all over the place
• 5:20
  you know which is usually undiagnosed ADHD but either way
• 5:23
  they act kind of childlike. So this would be my pose, the
• 5:29
  Manchild and his long-suffering wife If is an example of this,
• 5:33
  or women whose husbands kind of just do everything for them,
• 5:37
  they're always booking the flight.
• 5:38
  And then they basically tell her when she needs to be at the
• 5:42
  airport and they fill up her gas in her car and they just do like
• 5:46
  everything for her. And a lot of these men.
• 5:49
  Nowadays also do the housework, they used to just buy a
• 5:53
  housekeeper for women like that, but nowadays, they just do
• 5:58
  housework and childcare themselves usually because
• 6:01
  there's changing expectations about male/female roles.
• 6:04
  So all the women that say that men do nothing have never seen
• 6:06
  the men who do everything because they don't usually brag
• 6:09
  about it. Because it's more of, it's not
• 6:13
  saving face. It's more losing face on behalf
• 6:16
  of their wives, they're throwing their wives, under the bus.
• 6:18
  If they say, yeah, actually, I do the childcare and the
• 6:21
  housework, and, and I have the job.
• 6:24
  So, but there are a lot of those situations as well.
• 6:27
  So, in these situations, usually both, All grew up in a house
• 6:32
  where they saw one person doing everything in one person taking
• 6:36
  care of of. So, the person who does
• 6:38
  everything takes care of the one who does nothing.
• 6:41
  And so whether this was the male or the female in the caretaker
• 6:45
  role doesn't really matter as much.
• 6:46
  But this is another common Dynamic where one person is, the
• 6:50
  one who act more like the parent was always cleaning up and
• 6:53
  getting everything arranged and organized and the other person
• 6:56
  just never worries about that stuff.
• 6:58
  You know now with codependency No matter what kind of examples
• 7:02
  I give you, there's always this common theme where the people
• 7:06
  really do not feel like they could exist.
• 7:10
  Separately, certainly the one who's being taken care of all of
• 7:14
  the time constantly thinks that they could not exist.
• 7:17
  If they were not being cared for and but the other one really
• 7:21
  cannot Envision a life outside of caring for this person.
• 7:27
  So they may have some fantasies about being the one who gets
• 7:30
  taken care. Of but they can't really
• 7:32
  visualize that or else quite honestly.
• 7:34
  They would leave. You know, if they really didn't
• 7:37
  like any aspect of this Dynamic, then they would leave.
• 7:41
  There's nobody with a gun to their head and in a situation
• 7:44
  where people say, well I can't leave because, you know, I
• 7:48
  wouldn't want to get only half time with my kids, the person
• 7:51
  who does nothing, isn't even going to ask for half time with
• 7:53
  the kids usually, especially if it's a male.
• 7:56
  So this usually doesn't really have much to do with reality the
• 8:00
  sub. Conscious reason is they don't
• 8:03
  know how to be in a different kind of dynamic.
• 8:06
  They have never seen one at home and they don't know what it
• 8:08
  would be like to be in a dynamic where they were cared for as
• 8:11
  well. Now, what is interdependence in
• 8:15
  contrast to this? This is when people are their
• 8:18
  own person, but they come together to care for one another
• 8:22
  in different ways. So they each have a purview, and
• 8:26
  they, each are in charge of certain things.
• 8:28
  But if one of them were to Die, the other Or one could take that
• 8:32
  over, you know, with, with some disruption.
• 8:36
  But, but not not anything that they couldn't do.
• 8:38
  They do not feel like they would not be able to survive.
• 8:43
  They may feel like they would be devastated and would mourn for a
• 8:47
  long time, but they don't feel like they would not be able to
• 8:49
  get up and figure out how to feed themselves or how to spend
• 8:55
  money or what credit cards are there or how to you know take
• 9:00
  care of. Of the house or anything, they
• 9:02
  feel like they could rise to that occasion.
• 9:04
  But it would be a sorrowful situation, which, of course, if
• 9:07
  you love somebody, then you would but much like how if your
• 9:10
  child would die? You wouldn't say?
• 9:11
  Oh my God, how would I take care of the house?
• 9:14
  You know, like that it just doesn't have to do with that?
• 9:17
  You would miss your child, not what your child does.
• 9:20
  So that's kind of the difference to and codependency versus
• 9:24
  interdependence. Codependency is very focused on
• 9:26
  what each partner does. There's a lot of talk about what
• 9:29
  especially the one who is more, Mar Bird does.
• 9:33
  And this really overlaps with the over functioning or the idea
• 9:37
  of a Workhorse, which I've written about people whose most
• 9:41
  comfortable identity. Is that of somebody who takes
• 9:43
  care of everything and the other person is more like a coddled
• 9:47
  child, in a sense. This doesn't mean that they're
• 9:50
  treated. Well, they may be constantly
• 9:52
  insulted by the one, who does everything, you know, but they
• 9:55
  are treated like a child and they feel about themselves on a
• 10:00
  Deep level like they cannot function in the world in
• 10:03
  interdependence. Both people have healthy
• 10:06
  self-esteem. So, that is why this is really a
• 10:09
  goal for a healthy marriage is interdependence.
• 10:12
  Both people think there are, right?
• 10:13
  And they could take care of things on their own, they just
• 10:16
  prefer to be together. They may need each other
• 10:20
  emotionally, but they can also maintain like our rational
• 10:24
  perspective that if somebody died, they would not die that if
• 10:28
  the partner died, they would I die along with them.
• 10:31
  Out. So in interdependence people
• 10:34
  have their own individual lives with their own friends or career
• 10:39
  or working out or hobby, whatever.
• 10:43
  And then they come together for a couple time, couple time is
• 10:47
  not the only time, and it doesn't feel like the only
• 10:50
  emotionally close relationship or the only extremely
• 10:54
  conflictual relationships. It doesn't always only have to
• 10:58
  be positive close. It can be also - closer.
• 11:00
  People are fighting all the time, but the point is it's all
• 11:03
  the time. Codependent means like,
• 11:05
  especially and you can hear from what I'm saying that, the
• 11:08
  codependency of certain couples was really Amplified during the
• 11:12
  pandemic when people are working from home.
• 11:15
  The, if you started out codependent, you got way more
• 11:18
  codependent when both people had to be in the house all the time,
• 11:21
  then you really don't have any life outside and you have to
• 11:26
  make a specific effort to and therefore, any codependency is
• 11:30
  just It's up times a million. So how then do you work on
• 11:36
  growing less codependent as a couple if this is your issue.
• 11:41
  Well, couples counseling can really help because you probably
• 11:44
  don't even know the extent to which some of your patterns are
• 11:49
  codependent and unhealthy. And you, you certainly can't be
• 11:55
  as a tune to that as a third party can.
• 11:57
  When they hear about it from the outside.
• 12:00
  So, you know, for example, what if every night you clean up
• 12:07
  everything in the house while your partner, quote, relaxes.
• 12:12
  So if you were actually talking about that, maybe what that
• 12:15
  means is that your partner is very depressed and they're
• 12:17
  basically on the couch from 5 p.m. until 11 p.m. and they are
• 12:24
  napping or they're on their phone and you basically do
• 12:27
  everything. You may think of that as totally
• 12:30
  normal. And that's kind of what you saw
• 12:32
  growing up with an alcoholic parent.
• 12:34
  But you wouldn't really know that that isn't normal until you
• 12:38
  talk to somebody about it. Now, your kids are picking up on
• 12:42
  any codependent behavior that they see and then they are much
• 12:46
  more attuned to their they're much more likely to get into
• 12:49
  co-dependent relationships themselves and it's really
• 12:52
  anyone's guess which one they're going to be if they're going to
• 12:55
  be the problem person. Or the person who's the Martyr,
• 12:58
  you know, I mean neither of those roles.
• 13:00
  Is is what you really want for your kids, ideally in their
• 13:05
  relationships and but if that's what they see, then that's
• 13:08
  what's going to happen. So you couples counseling is a
• 13:13
  good way. There's also a good book,
• 13:14
  codependent no more. That's a classic.
• 13:17
  I could link you to that overall.
• 13:20
  You need to think about how kind of power is distributed in your
• 13:27
  relationship. Like do people take care Of each
• 13:31
  other and also have a life outside of each other.
• 13:34
  Like, I'm not saying everybody's got to be a huge, extrovert and
• 13:37
  have a huge social life and all these Hobbies.
• 13:40
  But if the only person that you talk to about anything is your
• 13:44
  spouse and they that then you kind of become an echo chamber.
• 13:51
  This really happens again in the pandemic, it happened a lot.
• 13:55
  It happens. Whenever couples just spend too
• 13:57
  much time together and they don't talk to anyone.
• 14:00
  Else really, and given the sorts of jobs that are available now
• 14:03
  and telework. Sometimes it really does happen.
• 14:07
  That people do not talk to anybody about anything except
• 14:11
  for their spouse and then whatever dysfunctionality is in
• 14:14
  their spouse, just kind of colors how they view everything
• 14:18
  and their own dysfunctionality, and then we end up kind of again
• 14:21
  in an echo chamber, where it's two people that just think
• 14:24
  really crazily about something. So like, let's say you got to
• 14:28
  anxious people trying to raise a child And then one comes home
• 14:32
  and they're like, oh, I saw the store this story on Facebook
• 14:35
  about, you know, kids, getting kidnapped.
• 14:38
  And so we really, you know, really can't shouldn't be taking
• 14:42
  our kid out, you know, because I kid was kidnapped and Walmart
• 14:45
  and then the other ones like, oh, yeah.
• 14:46
  And you know, what else I saw that like, you know, on
• 14:49
  sleepovers, like 90% of kids, get sexually molested.
• 14:52
  And then they're like, oh shit. Yeah, it's like two people that
• 14:55
  are anxious, that are spinning each other out of control in
• 14:58
  this crazy, codependent way. The child is going to suffer.
• 15:02
  Now, if those people had any sort of other Outlet to talk to
• 15:08
  any other close friends, family therapist, somebody might be
• 15:12
  like, what do you mean? You're not going to take your
• 15:14
  kid out to Walmart? When you go you're never going
• 15:16
  to allow them to have a sleepover or what?
• 15:18
  Like that. Doesn't make any sense you know
• 15:20
  but when there is an echo chamber of just two people that
• 15:23
  are completely in meshed with each other then frequently they
• 15:26
  can spin one another out of control and in In whatever the
• 15:31
  domain is that, they are struggling with whether that's
• 15:35
  anxiety, whether it's depression, just two people with
• 15:38
  increasingly negative, worldviews that really build on
• 15:43
  one another and their cynicism and pessimism just kind of plays
• 15:48
  off of each other until they think even worse about the world
• 15:52
  or people who have trauma histories that then end up
• 15:55
  distrustful and paranoid about everything.
• 15:58
  So, whatever your struggle, Is your partner.
• 16:02
  If they're really the only person that you engage with and
• 16:06
  they're in any way similar to you can really amplify your your
• 16:12
  your issues, you know. And instead of being any sort of
• 16:15
  a sounding board that can potentially then, you know,
• 16:20
  correct, you in a certain sense or offer a different view, you
• 16:24
  end up just really spiraling downward together and of Is who
• 16:31
  suffers the most in that situation is the kids because
• 16:34
  then it's like the inmates are running the Asylum.
• 16:36
  There's like no. Nobody in charge to people's
• 16:40
  issues are amplifying, each other's and then the kid ends up
• 16:44
  in the Super anxious depressed or traumatized home, right?
• 16:47
  So if this speaks to you at all, then couples counseling is a
• 16:50
  real good place to like try to get in another perspective.
• 16:55
  You know somebody else looking in with an objective view, can
• 16:59
  can often really really change how you view things or you could
• 17:05
  go into individual therapy which would have the the side benefit
• 17:10
  of you're not going there together so it's less
• 17:13
  codependent right away. Like you know you're just
• 17:15
  looking in at yourself and your own issues and not telling your
• 17:22
  spouse every little thing that happened.
• 17:23
  Sure, you're going to summarize therapy for them but it's a
• 17:26
  place where you open up to someone else that isn't your
• 17:29
  spouse. So hopefully this gives you an
• 17:34
  overview of codependency and the different things that it can
• 17:39
  look like and what it would look like to be in a healthier
• 17:41
  stronger relationship where you actually have interests and a
• 17:48
  life and an internal life really?
• 17:50
  That is just yours and that does not have to be based on the mood
• 17:54
  or the problems or the issues with your partner.
• 17:59
  All right guys. Is rate my podcast and please do
• 18:03
  subscribe. It is now in the description for
• 18:05
  every episode is the link to the anchors, website, to subscribe.
• 18:09
  And then you get access to all the bonus episodes and I hope
• 18:12
  everybody has a great day. Bye guys.