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MONEY DIARIES: An Executive with Social Justice In Her Heart · She's On The Money

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Speaker 1: Just before we get started, we'd like to acknowledge and
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Speaker 1: pay respect to Australia's Aboriginal and torrest Rate islander peoples.
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Speaker 1: They're the traditional custodians of the lands, the waterways and
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Speaker 1: the skies all across Australia. We thank you for sharing
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Speaker 1: and for caring for the land.
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Speaker 2: On which we are able to learn.
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Speaker 1: We pay respects to elders past and present, and we
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Speaker 1: share our friendship and our kindness.
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Speaker 3: She's on the Money, She's on the Money. Hello, and
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Speaker 3: welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast for millennials
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Speaker 3: who want financial freedom. Welcome back to another one of
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Speaker 3: our shot back Money Diary mondays, where we get to
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Speaker 3: chat to one of our beautiful community members, learn about them,
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Speaker 3: their money, their life, and ask all the juicy details
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Speaker 3: that Victoria Vine you love to know them.
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Speaker 2: I am so pervy.
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Speaker 3: Well, let me tell you all about our diarists, so,
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Speaker 3: she said. My dad is the son of Polish refugees.
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Speaker 3: I am one of ten children and we grew up
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Speaker 3: in an overcrowded working class home. I have always had
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Speaker 3: social justice in my heart. I worked three to four
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Speaker 3: hospital jobs while studying political science and was the first
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Speaker 3: of my siblings to earn a degree. In my mid twenties,
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Speaker 3: I had a daughter in a relationship which has long
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Speaker 3: since ended. When I was thirty three, my daughter was
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Speaker 3: six years old, I landed my first CE equivalent role.
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Speaker 3: The job was a non for profit membership organization of
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Speaker 3: fifty two thousand and when I left two weeks ago,
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Speaker 3: it was almost eighty two thousand people strong. It was
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Speaker 3: my dream job and aligned completely with my values. I
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Speaker 3: also had taken up roles on a number of different
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Speaker 3: boards and have been honing my skills and have a
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Speaker 3: growing interest in good governance. Five years ago I met
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Speaker 3: a climate change campaigner who I married and had a
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Speaker 3: second baby with, and my story continues to grow.
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Speaker 2: I love this.
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Speaker 1: How cool you're literally living your own dream.
1:58
Speaker 2: Welcome to the show.
2:00
Speaker 4: Hi, thanks for having me.
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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, now, thank you for coming on. I'm
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Speaker 1: really excited to hear about your journey. Congrats on being
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Speaker 1: the first of your siblings to get a degree.
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Speaker 2: How cool.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, well it was really great, but it was because
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Speaker 5: it was so drummed into us to never accumulate ditch
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Speaker 5: that no one else wanted to get a student loan.
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Speaker 1: So oh yeah, that makes so much. Ye, I'll take
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Speaker 1: it right, Well, you'll take it.
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Speaker 2: I love that.
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Speaker 1: Let's get straight into this because I want to learn
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Speaker 1: all about you. The first question is can you tell
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Speaker 1: us a bit more about your money story?
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Speaker 4: Yeah? Sure.
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Speaker 5: So I was raised one of the metal children of
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Speaker 5: ten and a family of twelve, and we grew up
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Speaker 5: in a neighborhood kind of closely with our grandparents and
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Speaker 5: some aunties and uncles and so on, and so money
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Speaker 5: was always really tight in our family.
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Speaker 4: We had a lot of Vidgy's grown in the backyard.
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Speaker 5: My mum sowed our clothes and mended them and adjusted
2:48
Speaker 5: the hand me downs and that sort of stuff. But
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Speaker 5: it was something my parents kind of argued about a
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Speaker 5: little bit, and like I.
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Speaker 4: Said, we were taught dick was a bad thing.
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Speaker 5: However, I went off and got a student loan right
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Speaker 5: after all, and my twenties were kind of a mixed
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Speaker 5: bag of you know, living worth quite low wages, having
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Speaker 5: my daughter trying to paid down my student loan, et cetera.
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Speaker 5: And then eventually I worked my way into a senior
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Speaker 5: role in a kind of four purpose not for profit area,
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Speaker 5: which is where I always wanted to work.
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Speaker 4: I always knew I would work for something that related
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Speaker 4: to my values, whether that was paid or not paid.
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Speaker 5: And I was very fortunate that that was paid work
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Speaker 5: because it's allowed me to also have a great time
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Speaker 5: in my thirties and then now going into my forties
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Speaker 5: as well.
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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it sounds like as much as money
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Speaker 1: was a little bit tight growing up, that sounds really wholesome.
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Speaker 1: Like I don't know, just the idea that you know,
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Speaker 1: you had veggies growing in the backyard and your mum
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Speaker 1: fixed things. It just sounds like it was a house
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Speaker 1: full of love by the way that you are explaining it,
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Speaker 1: And obviously everyone can't see your face, but like you
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Speaker 1: just glowed when you said that.
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Speaker 2: I was like, how sweet.
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Speaker 5: And I love my siblings, which is not you know,
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Speaker 5: something that's always the case in a large family. But yeah, right, upbringing,
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Speaker 5: I didn't have a lot, but we were happy.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that is so sweet and I definitely got
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Speaker 1: that vibe for him when you were explaining it, I
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Speaker 1: was like, oh, like, I love this. I wish i'd
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Speaker 1: don knew then. All right, next question, I want to
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Speaker 1: know more about your work. What do you do for
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Speaker 1: work and how much money do you earn?
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Speaker 5: So I've been an underutilized worker or unemployed for the
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Speaker 5: last two months.
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Speaker 4: I left my role back in March.
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Speaker 5: And I was leading New Zealand's largest trade union at
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Speaker 5: the time, WOW, which was a great honor. It was
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Speaker 5: amazing to work with such an incredible bunch of people.
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Speaker 5: And like I said, it was a dream job. Just
4:32
Speaker 5: a job you can't really do forever, I would say.
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Speaker 5: And I had set myself a seven year goal and
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Speaker 5: I reached about seven and a half years.
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Speaker 4: I didn't anticipate COVID.
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Speaker 5: That made it a little bit harder, but I was
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Speaker 5: earning when I left one hundred and seventy thousand dollars
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Speaker 5: for annim WOW. Which I've got to say, it feels
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Speaker 5: very uncomfortable still for me to say out loud. I
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Speaker 5: know that guilt about your own income. It doesn't remedy
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Speaker 5: the inequalities and hero and capitalism and stuff like that.
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Speaker 5: But it's difficult to say that knowing how much other
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Speaker 5: people are struggling, especially right now.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, but there it is.
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Speaker 1: I totally get that. But I also look at it
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Speaker 1: and go, well, your role was so impactful. That's absolutely
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Speaker 1: worth it. And the time and the energy and the
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Speaker 1: effort you put into it. I think there's a lot
5:17
Speaker 1: of guilt, but it's more because there's a level of
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Speaker 1: comparison that you're drawing when you look at that, instead
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Speaker 1: of looking at your own achievement where you're at. I
5:26
Speaker 1: think that when it comes to our own salaries really
5:28
Speaker 1: shouldn't be comparing it. We should just be looking at
5:31
Speaker 1: our own situations and what that means for us, and
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Speaker 1: how that means that you can pour from an even
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Speaker 1: more full cup. Right, Like, you're only able to do
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Speaker 1: what you can do because you can look after your
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Speaker 1: kids and look after your world. And I don't know,
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Speaker 1: I feel like you deserve every cent of that. So
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Speaker 1: I hate hearing that You're like, oh, but other people
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Speaker 1: are doing badly. I'm like, yeah, that's why you do
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Speaker 1: what you do, my love, that's why you're working in
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Speaker 1: that industry, so you can change the world.
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Speaker 4: To lift all the boats, you know, with your fide rises.
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Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly, all right. I want to know what is
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Speaker 2: your big money goal.
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Speaker 5: I would have called this a lifestyle goal, but of
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Speaker 5: course I need money to do it. So when I
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Speaker 5: think of myself in twenty years time, in my six days,
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Speaker 5: I want to work half of the year. I want
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Speaker 5: to be obviously mortgage free, but I'd like to work
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Speaker 5: six months of the year and then spend the other
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Speaker 5: six months volunteering or doing some sort of passion project
6:24
Speaker 5: or visiting the grandchildren.
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Speaker 4: I hope I'll have.
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Speaker 5: Or you know, just traveling to meet friends overseas, you know,
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Speaker 5: if that ever happens again. I don't want to have
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Speaker 5: to work every day all day, and I want to
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Speaker 5: enjoy my health while I have it.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. How are you working towards that
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Speaker 1: at the moment?
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Speaker 5: Well, I mean I'm pain obviously more than I have
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Speaker 5: to off my mortgage, and it's sort of chipping away
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Speaker 5: at it to help us to get mortgage free and
6:52
Speaker 5: maintaining our physical and mental health as well, so that
6:55
Speaker 5: we can play the long game. Because when you do
6:58
Speaker 5: work in kind of for purpose spaces and your activists,
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Speaker 5: that can be quite easy to kind of work.
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Speaker 4: Yourself until you burn out.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, and so I think taking you know, being a
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Speaker 5: bit more mature about our approach to say hour, I mean,
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Speaker 5: mine and my husband, we're both in the space to
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Speaker 5: sort of focus on, yeah, twenty years from now rather
7:19
Speaker 5: than next week.
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Speaker 1: I think that's really smart because people who are in
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Speaker 1: these spaces are so wildly driven and it ends up
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Speaker 1: being to their own demise because you burn yourself out.
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Speaker 1: You need to make sure that you are looking after
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Speaker 1: you so that you can look after the world.
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Speaker 2: I love it.
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Speaker 1: I feel like your mindset around that is so important.
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Speaker 1: Next question I have do you have any investments? If so,
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Speaker 1: what are they?
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Speaker 5: Yes, it currently have twenty thousand dollars in a managed fund.
7:48
Speaker 5: I did have more last year, but when I planned
7:50
Speaker 5: to take a year off work, we kind of reconfigured
7:52
Speaker 5: stuff when we could see that interest rates would be rising,
7:55
Speaker 5: and like I said, we're focusing on paying down the mortgage,
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Speaker 5: so we took some of our investments and paid that
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Speaker 5: down off the mortgage. So I'm interested in what you
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Speaker 5: have to say about that, whether there was a good
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Speaker 5: decision or not. But it could make me feel a
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Speaker 5: little bit more comfortable about then stepping out of paid
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Speaker 5: work for it.
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Speaker 1: For there, I feel like that's an important decision that
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Speaker 1: you made that was in line with making you feel comfortable,
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Speaker 1: and just the financial side of things doesn't make it
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Speaker 1: the right decision.
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Speaker 2: A lot of people always like what's the best.
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Speaker 1: Outcome or what's the best investment Victoria, and it's like, well,
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Speaker 1: it's actually very easy to work out what the best
8:29
Speaker 1: quote performing asset is because you can look up historical
8:33
Speaker 1: performance and you can see what that might look like.
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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that for your situation, that's the
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Speaker 1: right asset or the right decision to make sure that
8:40
Speaker 1: you're comfortable and thriving and doing everything that you want
8:43
Speaker 1: to do to achieve your goals. And that's where it's
8:46
Speaker 1: so hard to go, well, I don't know if that
8:48
Speaker 1: was the right decision, but if you're really excited about
8:50
Speaker 1: it, it made you feel super comfortable and now you're doing
8:52
Speaker 1: what you said you were going to do. Like, that's
8:55
Speaker 1: not a bad decision, is it.
8:56
Speaker 4: No? Yes?
8:58
Speaker 1: Sorry, Sorry about the personal finance twist there, but it's
9:01
Speaker 1: one of those things. I don't know your entire personal
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Speaker 1: financial situation. I am endeavoring to learn more on this
9:07
Speaker 1: episode of Money Darries. I promise we will dive a
9:10
Speaker 1: lot deeper than I would on a Facebook post in
9:12
Speaker 1: our group. But it's really important to understand that if
9:15
Speaker 1: that's the thing that made you super comfortable with taking
9:18
Speaker 1: a year off, then arguably that was the best decision
9:21
Speaker 1: for you.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, because also not working, I wouldn't be contributing as
9:25
Speaker 5: much to the fund. So I just sort of thought
9:28
Speaker 5: if we had to refix at a high mortgage rate,
9:30
Speaker 5: and I'm not feeding my investments, and maybe that's just
9:35
Speaker 5: something I can sort of sit and forget for the year.
9:38
Speaker 5: I don't know, I'll poke it back up when I'm
9:39
Speaker 5: in paid employment.
9:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is absolutely fair. All right.
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Speaker 1: Next question, you mentioned a mortgage. The answer is yes,
9:47
Speaker 1: but do you have any debts? If so, what are they?
9:50
Speaker 4: Yeah?
9:50
Speaker 5: So currently three hundred and fifty thousand dollars mortgages.
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Speaker 2: Yep, that's a house.
9:57
Speaker 1: No credit card, no credit cards, no student, don't loan anymore.
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Speaker 4: No go rid of bit when I was thirty two.
10:04
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, how cool. All right?
10:06
Speaker 1: Next question, I know you're over in New Zealand, you're
10:10
Speaker 1: across the ditch, but do you shot back?
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Speaker 4: No? I don't think we can you shot back over here.
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Speaker 2: We'll rally for it.
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Speaker 5: I do know of an app over here called Bennie,
10:21
Speaker 5: which is a similar idea to shop back, but it
10:24
Speaker 5: has an obligatory portion of it goes to a charity. Oh,
10:27
Speaker 5: co nominate your charity and so you can sort of
10:30
Speaker 5: accumulate your little fund of savings.
10:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is cool.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's called Bennie and they're just starting out.
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Speaker 5: But I really like the idea of the ethos behind it.
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Speaker 4: Yeah. I'm not much of an online shopper.
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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, how cool.
10:46
Speaker 1: All right, next question, I feel like you probably have
10:48
Speaker 1: a couple of these. What is your best money habit?
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Speaker 5: Oh, I have to say it's that I'm a saver,
10:55
Speaker 5: you know, it's just boring.
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Speaker 4: I've been saving for either.
10:58
Speaker 5: I do want to say though, that when I was
11:00
Speaker 5: in my minimum waged work, I wasn't supporting another human beings,
11:03
Speaker 5: it was a little bit easier.
11:05
Speaker 4: But I've always put.
11:06
Speaker 5: Aside money, even when I was in hospitality work. And
11:10
Speaker 5: occasionally it's been a bit rough and I haven't been
11:12
Speaker 5: able to, but as my income's crept up or jumped up,
11:15
Speaker 5: as it has over my life, I've tried to put
11:19
Speaker 5: it away more so that I'm ahead of the kind
11:21
Speaker 5: of lifestyle creep.
11:23
Speaker 4: Yeah.
11:23
Speaker 5: So I've always been putting into superannuation, a little bit
11:26
Speaker 5: of investments, as you know, and a savings account if
11:29
Speaker 5: I can.
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Speaker 2: So, Yeah, where did that come from?
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Speaker 1: How did you know when you were younger that that
11:35
Speaker 1: was a priority because so many of us just don't
11:39
Speaker 1: have that level of financial literacy to go, this is important,
11:42
Speaker 1: and we end up just spending everything that comes into
11:44
Speaker 1: our accounts. Like, where do you think that came from?
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Speaker 5: I think it really did come from that hard message
11:50
Speaker 5: from my parents that you should never get into get
11:52
Speaker 5: if you can help it, that if you.
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Speaker 4: Want something, you should pay for it outright.
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Speaker 5: And then the first thing I ever wanted to do
11:56
Speaker 5: was to travel overseas as a teenager.
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Speaker 4: So it's not something you can hire purchase, right. I
12:01
Speaker 4: had to save up.
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Speaker 5: My money and pay for that ticket, and I just
12:04
Speaker 5: sort of got into the habit of if I wanted something,
12:06
Speaker 5: I would save for it and I would make it
12:09
Speaker 5: happen that way. So it is a bit weird because
12:11
Speaker 5: when I started retirement savings, it was before there was
12:14
Speaker 5: a compulsory superannuation scheme in New Zealand. So I kind
12:18
Speaker 5: of thank my younger self a little bit for having
12:20
Speaker 5: the foresight to go, Okay, I'm in a job, I
12:23
Speaker 5: should be putting something away for when I'm in my sixties,
12:26
Speaker 5: because that's not I think what most teenagers are.
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Speaker 2: No, absolutely not, that's why. I'm like, where is this
12:30
Speaker 2: coming from? Because that's actually crazy.
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Speaker 1: Smart, but not something that a lot of us do
12:37
Speaker 1: or even prioritize, because even I know when I was
12:40
Speaker 1: first working, there's no chance, like you could have told
12:44
Speaker 1: me exactly what it was. And we're in Australia, so
12:47
Speaker 1: superannuation from my entire career has been compulsory. And I
12:50
Speaker 1: still was like, that's waste money. I don't know why
12:52
Speaker 1: we're doing that.
12:52
Speaker 2: That's joke.
12:54
Speaker 1: And now I'm like, you put more in your super,
12:56
Speaker 1: my friend, you get it. So I think it's really
12:58
Speaker 1: important to talk about these things because it's funny when
13:02
Speaker 1: we compare ourselves to people like you Money direst. We'll go, well,
13:05
Speaker 1: she's doing so well. We're like, well, that's of course
13:07
Speaker 1: you started so long ago. And you said, oh, it's
13:09
Speaker 1: pretty boring. I'm just a really good saver. Like, yes,
13:13
Speaker 1: that's the best part of financial literacy. It can be
13:16
Speaker 1: really boring. There's no like magic wand or super exciting
13:20
Speaker 1: outcome that we have to discover. It's actually just a
13:23
Speaker 1: spend less than you earn and save regularly and consistently
13:28
Speaker 1: and think about investing and talk about super or talk
13:31
Speaker 1: about keyway saver or talk about whatever is going to
13:33
Speaker 1: put you in the best possible position, and people.
13:35
Speaker 2: Like that can't be it. No, no, no, no, sit down.
13:38
Speaker 2: That's all we've got.
13:39
Speaker 1: So it is really exciting when you talk about it
13:42
Speaker 1: and people are it's boring. I'm like, no, no, actually
13:44
Speaker 1: that's the answer, Like that's perfect. Let's flip this though,
13:48
Speaker 1: what's your worst money have it?
13:50
Speaker 4: Okay?
13:50
Speaker 5: So I thought of two. In case you roll my
13:52
Speaker 5: first one out of order, I pull you out.
13:55
Speaker 4: My first one is that I'm not a risk taker.
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Speaker 5: And this kind of goes to the whole boring plotting
14:00
Speaker 5: along saving, you know, dollar after dollar thing, which you know,
14:04
Speaker 5: was how I got into my first property and all
14:06
Speaker 5: of that sort of stuff. But when I think back
14:08
Speaker 5: to saving for my superannuation, as you know, in my
14:12
Speaker 5: early twenties, I was still going for like kind of
14:16
Speaker 5: balanced investments instead of and now I look back and
14:18
Speaker 5: I think that's the one time in my life I
14:20
Speaker 5: could have been a little less risk averse, you know,
14:23
Speaker 5: I mean, maybe then I wouldn't have had as much
14:25
Speaker 5: when I withdrew it to pay for my first property,
14:28
Speaker 5: you know, the deposit on my first property.
14:30
Speaker 4: But I don't know. I just there are a few.
14:32
Speaker 5: Decisions I've made over time that I look back on
14:35
Speaker 5: and think, maybe I could have been a little bit
14:37
Speaker 5: more you know, risk taking. I almost bought a studio
14:41
Speaker 5: apartment straight out of university that was going cheap in
14:44
Speaker 5: my neighborhood. I was a single woman and my first
14:46
Speaker 5: you know, full time job, and I talked to myself
14:49
Speaker 5: out of that going. I know, I will never resell
14:51
Speaker 5: a studio apartment. It's too small. You know, it's on
14:54
Speaker 5: a main.
14:54
Speaker 4: Road, blah blah blah. And of course, you know the
14:56
Speaker 4: way that Auckland.
14:57
Speaker 2: Property, no property would have been.
15:01
Speaker 1: Like a studio apartments basically all people can afford now
15:04
Speaker 1: in Auckland, So that makes sense.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, it would have been a great investment for me
15:09
Speaker 5: at that time and a place to live. Of course,
15:11
Speaker 5: I had some dodgy flat mates been there. Made a
15:14
Speaker 5: bad decision, but yeah, so I mean maybe I could
15:17
Speaker 5: have taken a few more risks.
15:19
Speaker 1: I find that super interesting as well, because hindsight's twenty twenty.
15:22
Speaker 1: Imagine if the flip happened and you were like, I'm
15:25
Speaker 1: so glad that I was really risk averse because it
15:29
Speaker 1: saved my butt. If something bad had happened in the
15:31
Speaker 1: economy financially, Like, I just think that you would have
15:34
Speaker 1: been really grateful for that. So I think that looking
15:36
Speaker 1: back at past decisions that we've made, it doesn't help us,
15:40
Speaker 1: but it means that you can actually look at it
15:42
Speaker 1: now and go, how does this shape the decisions I
15:44
Speaker 1: make tomorrow or the decisions I make for future me
15:47
Speaker 1: Because I think too many times we reprimand past selves
15:50
Speaker 1: by being like, oh, I could have just been more risky,
15:52
Speaker 1: or I could have done that better, or I wish
15:55
Speaker 1: I just saved more. Like I think we all look
15:57
Speaker 1: at it like I look at it. Sometimes I'm like,
16:00
Speaker 1: I wish that I just wasn't an idiot with my
16:02
Speaker 1: money in right, I just wish I made good decisions.
16:07
Speaker 1: But you do what you can with the tools and
16:09
Speaker 1: resources that you had at the time. And I'm so
16:12
Speaker 1: beyond impressed that you even thinking about retirement while you
16:15
Speaker 1: were working in your hospital job and at UNI, Like,
16:18
Speaker 1: absolutely not on my radar. So you're miles ahead of
16:21
Speaker 1: me in when it comes to mindset next question, because
16:24
Speaker 1: I do want to deep dive into that dodgy flatmate
16:26
Speaker 1: you had and how that impacted you financially. But I
16:30
Speaker 1: want to ask you, what grade would you give yourself
16:33
Speaker 1: if you were forced to give your money habits?
16:34
Speaker 2: A grade A B.
16:36
Speaker 5: Why Well, I think I'm fairly literate and good at
16:42
Speaker 5: managing my own finances.
16:44
Speaker 4: But I think it's about you know, you don't know
16:47
Speaker 4: what you don't know.
16:48
Speaker 5: But when I go to board meetings, I print out
16:50
Speaker 5: the financials and I read them three times and I
16:53
Speaker 5: put knots on the margins and I have to go
16:54
Speaker 5: through it carefully. And I'll get into these meetings and
16:57
Speaker 5: there'll be people who can just read financial reports and
17:01
Speaker 5: see the trends like it's spot stuff, like it's nothing,
17:04
Speaker 5: and it's like it's natural to them.
17:05
Speaker 4: It's not natural to me.
17:07
Speaker 5: So I know that there's a lot for me to learn,
17:09
Speaker 5: which is why I listen to your podcasts, and so
17:12
Speaker 5: I think there's always room to grow and learn.
17:16
Speaker 4: So I would say a BEE because there's a room
17:18
Speaker 4: for improvement.
17:19
Speaker 1: I love that, and I love that You're like, I
17:22
Speaker 1: don't understand why people are just natural at this. This
17:25
Speaker 1: is so rude, but you're there going, you know what,
17:27
Speaker 1: I'm going to pour over this and really get it.
17:30
Speaker 2: And that's just tenacity. That a lot of people lack.
17:32
Speaker 1: My friend, I have a lot of questions for you
17:35
Speaker 1: after we go to this quick break. Yeah, up, next on,
17:38
Speaker 1: she's on the board meeting. All right, let's get back
17:46
Speaker 1: to it. I want to understand a little bit more
17:48
Speaker 1: about the imposter syndrome that you seem to be suffering from,
17:51
Speaker 1: because you are fierce, you are so wildly passionate about
17:56
Speaker 1: what you do, You're on boards, you are so impressive,
18:00
Speaker 1: and you're sitting in a room of people who are
18:01
Speaker 1: arguably being paid exactly what you're being paid, or very
18:04
Speaker 1: similar because these things in your industry are quite quite
18:07
Speaker 1: set out. From my understanding, where's this imposter syndrome come from?
18:12
Speaker 1: And why are you still struggling with it when you
18:14
Speaker 1: are so wildly powerful?
18:16
Speaker 4: Hey, that's a very frank question.
18:18
Speaker 2: Thanks, I'm very frank.
18:20
Speaker 4: Sorry, No, no, it's a great question.
18:22
Speaker 5: So for all of us, whether where work can they're
18:24
Speaker 5: not for profit space or in the private sector or wherever.
18:28
Speaker 5: You know, every room of decision making has come from
18:32
Speaker 5: a kind of patriarchal, colonial background, right, so the composition
18:37
Speaker 5: of that room will probably not look like you, r I.
18:39
Speaker 5: They probably won't have refugee backgrounds. They may not have
18:42
Speaker 5: brown skin, they're probably not woman, and so that feeling
18:46
Speaker 5: of never seeing yourself and the spaces can make it
18:49
Speaker 5: a bit of an awkward space to enter and to
18:51
Speaker 5: stay in. And I think that we have to together
18:54
Speaker 5: support each other to either pull up a chair to
18:56
Speaker 5: those tables or to get somebody to give up their
19:00
Speaker 5: chair for the voices that aren't in the room, because
19:03
Speaker 5: if we don't change that composition, we will just continue
19:06
Speaker 5: to have people feel like outsiders into the future as well.
19:10
Speaker 4: So, yeah, if I'm.
19:11
Speaker 5: Showing you I have a bit of imposter syndrome, maybe
19:13
Speaker 5: it's because when I started in my first equivalent role,
19:16
Speaker 5: I was a thirty three year old woman, and a
19:19
Speaker 5: lot was made of my youth in particular, but probably
19:22
Speaker 5: my gender as well. And I certainly had a unique background,
19:25
Speaker 5: so there weren't others like me, and.
19:28
Speaker 4: I was aware that I wasn't fitting the mold.
19:30
Speaker 5: And I really hope that what I've done over the
19:32
Speaker 5: years in those spaces is to try to normalize having
19:35
Speaker 5: new voices and new ways of thinking, and new ideas
19:39
Speaker 5: and new ways.
19:40
Speaker 4: Of expressing your thoughts as well.
19:42
Speaker 5: Coming up in those decision making forums, I hope that
19:45
Speaker 5: makes sense.
19:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.
19:47
Speaker 3: Have you seen that shift over the time that you've
19:50
Speaker 3: worked in their space, because obviously as a society, we've
19:52
Speaker 3: definitely shifted to be more vocal about the need for
19:56
Speaker 3: diversity across all industries and the need for representation can
20:00
Speaker 3: see themselves in those rooms and can get a seat
20:02
Speaker 3: at the table. Have you seen any change happen in
20:06
Speaker 3: the time that you've worked in this space.
20:08
Speaker 4: Yeah? Absolutely.
20:09
Speaker 5: I mean in the Union movement where I was working,
20:11
Speaker 5: there were some very deliberate changes and constitutional changes being
20:14
Speaker 5: made within organizations to make sure that we could never
20:17
Speaker 5: have a lack of diversity again, which is kind of
20:20
Speaker 5: impressive to see. But there are still other kind of
20:24
Speaker 5: you know boards where it's still very dominated by men,
20:29
Speaker 5: older men, and men who are from European backgrounds. So
20:34
Speaker 5: it's a mixed bag. I'll say, there's some really good
20:36
Speaker 5: advances being made, and.
20:38
Speaker 4: I have to say that even though I want to get.
20:40
Speaker 5: Into that governance space a lot more and I really
20:42
Speaker 5: do love it, and I say importance of good governance.
20:45
Speaker 5: I think everybody who goes onto that space needs to
20:47
Speaker 5: ask themselves, if I get that seat, who am I
20:49
Speaker 5: getting it in spite of what other voices, maybe even
20:53
Speaker 5: more marginalized, aren't going to be heard if I pick
20:55
Speaker 5: that set up. And unfortunately, I think there are certain
20:59
Speaker 5: people who aren't really born or have not accrued that
21:03
Speaker 5: mindset over their lifetime, who sort of feel more entitled
21:06
Speaker 5: to that space.
21:07
Speaker 4: And that's still the case.
21:08
Speaker 5: In ol Tito, in New Zealand, it's probably as well
21:10
Speaker 5: as Australia, i'd expect.
21:12
Speaker 2: I agree.
21:13
Speaker 1: I sit on a board as well, and this is
21:16
Speaker 1: a conversation that we as a board have all the time.
21:20
Speaker 1: I sit on a board for a charity called TLC
21:22
Speaker 1: for Kids and I'm their treasurer. So I talk about
21:24
Speaker 1: the financials all the time. And just to let you know,
21:27
Speaker 1: it's not that easy. You're right, like you do have
21:29
Speaker 1: to pour over the financials to like pull out the
21:32
Speaker 1: story and see what's going on the people. Honestly, I
21:35
Speaker 1: don't know between you and I the people that just
21:38
Speaker 1: get it. I'm like, no, you researched this before you
21:40
Speaker 1: came into the room, Like there's no way, there's no
21:42
Speaker 1: way that you just saw that story and the financials,
21:44
Speaker 1: Like I had to spend two and a half hours
21:46
Speaker 1: looking at these to pull that out, there's no way they.
21:49
Speaker 4: Just it makes me feel so good to know that.
21:52
Speaker 1: Nope, nope, I have to literally pour over the financials
21:56
Speaker 1: and you can obviously see just really clear things.
21:58
Speaker 2: Right, you can be like loss impressive.
22:02
Speaker 1: But when you're trying to drag out the story and go, Okay,
22:05
Speaker 1: well what does this mean and how has this been
22:06
Speaker 1: flowing and how long has this been happening and what
22:08
Speaker 1: are the impacts? Like we've been doing a lot of
22:10
Speaker 1: impact research on what does this mean for our charity
22:14
Speaker 1: having gone through COVID and we've been supported a little
22:16
Speaker 1: bit through having job keeper and things like that, but
22:19
Speaker 1: what are the actual impacts and what can we see
22:22
Speaker 1: them becoming? Like that takes a lot more time than
22:24
Speaker 1: just having a quick look at the P and L.
22:26
Speaker 1: Anyway back to this, I feel like boards aren't often
22:30
Speaker 1: discussed in our community, and when they are, it's about
22:33
Speaker 1: gender diversity. But let's step back a little bit because
22:37
Speaker 1: this is a really important conversation, or I believe it's
22:40
Speaker 1: a really important conversation. Let's define money diarist, what's the
22:45
Speaker 1: purpose of a board, Like, let's share with us she's
22:48
Speaker 1: on the money community exactly what that means. And then
22:50
Speaker 1: exactly why diversity is so important on a board.
22:53
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, So the board is at a high level
22:57
Speaker 5: checking that the organization has everything in order for that
23:00
Speaker 5: organization to fulfill its purpose. So the purpose is normally
23:04
Speaker 5: set out and like a constitution if it's not for
23:07
Speaker 5: proper or in some kind of strategy somewhere, if it's
23:11
Speaker 5: for profit, and the board is tasked with making sure
23:16
Speaker 5: that the money, the decisions, that everything is geared to
23:19
Speaker 5: make that happen.
23:20
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of responsibility with a board. It's
23:22
Speaker 1: not just a room full of floody duddies who just
23:25
Speaker 1: talk about the business stuff filters down from the board.
23:29
Speaker 1: And I genuinely believe that the dynamic of a board,
23:31
Speaker 1: and I'm sure you're the same is what impacts the
23:34
Speaker 1: culture of an organization and the way that they step
23:37
Speaker 1: forward and actually lead change. So from my perspective, having diversity,
23:42
Speaker 1: having different voices, having different people in that board means
23:46
Speaker 1: that everything is going to be taken into consideration.
23:49
Speaker 2: And I think it's it's you know, like my opinion
23:52
Speaker 2: on the Minister for Disability.
23:53
Speaker 1: I genuinely believe that Minister should have a disability Like
23:57
Speaker 1: you need to understand that circumstance deeply to bring to
24:01
Speaker 1: the table things that can facilitate good and solid and
24:05
Speaker 1: sustainable change. And you know, as we see, you know
24:09
Speaker 1: in Australia and obviously in New Zealand.
24:12
Speaker 2: We are making changes.
24:13
Speaker 1: But what do you think that we can do as
24:16
Speaker 1: a community to demand that that is taken more seriously?
24:19
Speaker 1: Because board roles are often quite you know, don't want
24:22
Speaker 1: to use the word elitist, but they often are. How
24:25
Speaker 1: do we, you know, as the shees on the money
24:27
Speaker 1: community support that change positively because we know how much
24:30
Speaker 1: of an impact it can have.
24:33
Speaker 5: I think that's a really good point to raise up
24:35
Speaker 5: in these discussions that you're having and with your audience.
24:37
Speaker 5: I mean, first of all, on the point you made
24:39
Speaker 5: about culture, I think that's so important. And if the
24:43
Speaker 5: culture is if it's a monoculture, that's going to sense
24:47
Speaker 5: you know, reports throughout the organization as well and sort
24:50
Speaker 5: of reinforce that idea about what a decision maker looks like,
24:53
Speaker 5: if you know what I mean. So yeah, board positions
24:56
Speaker 5: are of course quite tightly held. I fell into a
24:59
Speaker 5: few by virtue of them, position that I held for
25:01
Speaker 5: my day job, you know, So it was because of
25:04
Speaker 5: that that I was asked to participate in different things. However,
25:07
Speaker 5: I then kind of expanded because I wanted to learn
25:09
Speaker 5: how different organizations worked. I think there are In New
25:13
Speaker 5: Zealand we have groups like the Institute of Directors where
25:16
Speaker 5: you can pick up training and you can learn some
25:18
Speaker 5: governance skills. I know that the ACTU in Australia does
25:21
Speaker 5: some really great governance training and resources for at least unions,
25:25
Speaker 5: but there must be other places that you can go
25:27
Speaker 5: to for training and even starting out. I want to
25:32
Speaker 5: say small, but it is really significant stuff. It's usually
25:35
Speaker 5: the unpaid board roles. Like in New Zealand we have
25:38
Speaker 5: boards associated with our schools, with boards associated with sports
25:41
Speaker 5: clubs and so on. There might be other parts of
25:44
Speaker 5: your community that people can just start practicing and learning
25:48
Speaker 5: and watching what it's like. And often they're desperate for
25:51
Speaker 5: volunteers as well, because these aren't roles that people necessarily want.
25:55
Speaker 4: Because maybe those first roles aren't paid roles.
25:57
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, but I do think they're still with and
26:00
Speaker 5: you'll learn from operating on boards with other more experienced
26:04
Speaker 5: governors as well or directors, and yeah.
26:08
Speaker 4: Soak it up.
26:09
Speaker 5: And the other point I wanted to make because I
26:11
Speaker 5: think I gave the you know, the white men I
26:13
Speaker 5: had time before is that some of my best mentors
26:16
Speaker 5: have been white men, and that's exactly what's happened. I've
26:18
Speaker 5: got to sit around tables with them and watch and
26:21
Speaker 5: learn and ask questions of them outside the room if
26:25
Speaker 5: I think they're too stupid to say across the table.
26:27
Speaker 5: And I've been really grateful for that kind of you know,
26:30
Speaker 5: confidence and mentorship that they've given me.
26:33
Speaker 1: And I think that that's important as well, because I'm
26:35
Speaker 1: exactly the same, Like I work in financial services, like
26:39
Speaker 1: it's all white men. I went to a conference the
26:42
Speaker 1: other day and I was sitting around a bad room
26:45
Speaker 1: table and I kind of just put my head in
26:47
Speaker 1: my hand and I was like, oh my gosh, like
26:49
Speaker 1: this is everything that I.
26:50
Speaker 2: Tell my community.
26:51
Speaker 1: I dislike I was the only woman in the room
26:55
Speaker 1: who was a financial advisor, and I was just so
26:59
Speaker 1: shocked that that was circumstance. But then I reframed my
27:02
Speaker 1: thinking and I was like, actually, all these people champion me,
27:04
Speaker 1: all these people have my back, all these people want
27:07
Speaker 1: to see me flourish. All these people want diversity and inclusion,
27:10
Speaker 1: and they understand the difference between equality and equity, and
27:14
Speaker 1: that's so important, and I think too many times we
27:17
Speaker 1: give you know, white men a really hard time when
27:21
Speaker 1: so many of them want to champion us and push
27:23
Speaker 1: us forward. So I think it's about embracing that change,
27:27
Speaker 1: not crucifying what exists, because what exists has always been
27:31
Speaker 1: for the greater good as well.
27:33
Speaker 2: We just can do better.
27:34
Speaker 1: We now know that diversity is incredibly important. It always
27:38
Speaker 1: has been, but it's never been embraced, and now it is.
27:41
Speaker 1: I think we have a job to make sure that
27:43
Speaker 1: that happens. And I think so many of these people
27:46
Speaker 1: on boards see that as well. I've had conversations with
27:49
Speaker 1: people being like, if someone came along and they were
27:51
Speaker 1: better suited for my position, I would give it up.
27:53
Speaker 2: In a heartbeat.
27:53
Speaker 1: And I think that that's so powerful because often you
27:56
Speaker 1: think of board members as people who are there because
27:59
Speaker 1: it's the power trip, and some people are there for
28:02
Speaker 1: that reason, and that's absolutely the wrong reason to be
28:05
Speaker 1: on a board. So I think that you're right embracing
28:08
Speaker 1: it's really important, and I think asking questions of businesses
28:11
Speaker 1: to make sure that you know their boards are inclusive
28:13
Speaker 1: and diverse in when they're not asking why that's the case,
28:17
Speaker 1: because it could be for exactly the same reason as
28:20
Speaker 1: the conference.
28:21
Speaker 2: I was at the other day.
28:22
Speaker 1: It's that that is what the industry is saturated with,
28:25
Speaker 1: and there are so few female voices that all of
28:28
Speaker 1: us are jumping up and down about it. But we
28:31
Speaker 1: need the other roles to be filled too, So I
28:33
Speaker 1: think it's important to not just crucify and go, oh
28:36
Speaker 1: my gosh, I cannot believe they don't have a fifty
28:38
Speaker 1: percent female board, Like, let's understand why that's the case
28:41
Speaker 1: first before crucifying it, and then if there's good reason
28:45
Speaker 1: understanding that, and how do we move forward?
28:47
Speaker 5: Can I too, you that a few head listeners who
28:50
Speaker 5: are on board and that example you just gave, you know,
28:53
Speaker 5: where there aren't other men about and in a space
28:57
Speaker 5: opens up and we get another woman or or somebody
29:00
Speaker 5: who's voice hasn't been heard there to make sure that
29:03
Speaker 5: they feel supported and I'm mentored as well by you,
29:06
Speaker 5: because that's been something I found a little bit difficult
29:10
Speaker 5: over time, because there was always the young one in
29:12
Speaker 5: the room is realizing that in some spaces, I've got
29:14
Speaker 5: more knowledge than others and can act to better mentor
29:17
Speaker 5: and help other people feel comfortable, and that's how you
29:20
Speaker 5: kind of keep.
29:21
Speaker 4: The ladder down and keep pulling everyone up.
29:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so important.
29:27
Speaker 1: I could talk about mentoring for ages, and I will
29:29
Speaker 1: talk about mentoring on the podcast at some point because
29:32
Speaker 1: just like you, I went to use your name, Money Diarrest.
29:36
Speaker 1: Just like you, I'm a very firm believer that mentoring
29:38
Speaker 1: isn't about age or tenure. It's actually about skill sharing
29:41
Speaker 1: and if you've got a skill, then you can be
29:43
Speaker 1: a mentor. Like it's absolutely not about how old you are.
29:46
Speaker 1: In fact, I've learned so much, especially in my online business,
29:50
Speaker 1: from people who are significantly younger than me, and it
29:52
Speaker 1: humbles me every day exactly. But I think that this
29:56
Speaker 1: has been a really powerful chat. Definitely hasn't gone down
29:58
Speaker 1: the route that I thought it Money Diarist, but I'm
30:02
Speaker 1: really grateful for it because I feel like these are
30:04
Speaker 1: the conversations I want to be having with our community
30:07
Speaker 1: so that they understand that roles like yours exist and
30:10
Speaker 1: what that does and how that works, and how important
30:12
Speaker 1: it is for companies to have a board of governance
30:15
Speaker 1: to make sure that companies are doing the right thing,
30:18
Speaker 1: because ultimately it's for you, like it's for the community,
30:21
Speaker 1: like it's to keep you safe and secure and happy,
30:24
Speaker 1: and yeah, I'm just I'm really passionate about this area.
30:27
Speaker 2: So I'm glad we got to have this chat before
30:29
Speaker 2: we go.
30:29
Speaker 3: I just wanted to ask you mentioned that your last
30:33
Speaker 3: role was your dream role, and obviously you've stepped away
30:35
Speaker 3: from that.
30:36
Speaker 2: What's your plan going forward?
30:38
Speaker 3: Are you planning on taking a bit of a significant
30:40
Speaker 3: leave of absence. Are you setting yourself up to kind
30:43
Speaker 3: of do that hybrid six month in six month out?
30:45
Speaker 3: What are you looking to do now?
30:47
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, the six month and six month out was
30:50
Speaker 5: longer time plan for twenty years or so. I think
30:53
Speaker 5: I will have to get back into full time work.
30:55
Speaker 5: It's some sage or will want to. My son's three,
30:59
Speaker 5: and he's had health issues over his life so far,
31:02
Speaker 5: short life, so I'm really happy to take the rest
31:05
Speaker 5: of the year. So I planned from March till November
31:07
Speaker 5: without work and just to sort of take that time
31:09
Speaker 5: to figure out what to do next and just feel
31:12
Speaker 5: so just so happy that I'm in the position to
31:15
Speaker 5: be able to do that. You know, it's a bit
31:17
Speaker 5: of a dream just to say I'm going to take
31:18
Speaker 5: some time out and sit back and see what comes
31:21
Speaker 5: or what drives me after that.
31:23
Speaker 4: But every day is a bit different.
31:25
Speaker 5: At the moment, I know it's going to be something
31:27
Speaker 5: that relates to social justice, and that is for the
31:30
Speaker 5: good of the environment, for women, for people, and for
31:34
Speaker 5: economic justice. Probably, I know that that's what drives me. However,
31:39
Speaker 5: what shape or format takes, I don't know. I work
31:41
Speaker 5: up a few days ago and decided I wanted to
31:43
Speaker 5: go to.
31:43
Speaker 2: Med school, so oh my god.
31:46
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, I dismissed that after I realized
31:48
Speaker 5: I'd be like fifty by the time I was in
31:50
Speaker 5: general practice.
31:51
Speaker 2: So that's that's all right, No such things too late.
31:55
Speaker 4: I'm just having some wild ideas about what I'm not
31:57
Speaker 4: doing next secually.
31:57
Speaker 3: To be honest, the world is your oyster, though, and
32:00
Speaker 3: I think that that's something that's really good to see,
32:02
Speaker 3: is being like, there's not an age limit on deciding
32:05
Speaker 3: that you want to change your path. You could be
32:07
Speaker 3: seventy years old and go, oh, actually I want to
32:09
Speaker 3: learn a new skill or I want to try something different,
32:11
Speaker 3: and we get really set. I think in the idea
32:13
Speaker 3: that your career path is direct and linear, and I
32:16
Speaker 3: know for me personally that hasn't been the case at all,
32:19
Speaker 3: And I think it's really refreshing to be like, oh
32:21
Speaker 3: my god, I woke up one day and I wanted
32:22
Speaker 3: to do this thing and that's valid, Like that's not
32:25
Speaker 3: a whim. Maybe it just means that you've awoken a
32:28
Speaker 3: passion that you hadn't recognized before, and now that you
32:31
Speaker 3: know that it's there, why not pursue it?
32:34
Speaker 2: Why not?
32:35
Speaker 5: H thank you, thank you for not saying it's my
32:36
Speaker 5: midlife crisis.
32:38
Speaker 4: No.
32:40
Speaker 1: No, I think that it's interesting as well, because you
32:44
Speaker 1: were probably looking at that and going all right, well
32:46
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be in practice until I'm fifty, and you go, wow,
32:50
Speaker 1: like imagine how many years after that, Like you will
32:52
Speaker 1: probably still be in practice another twenty years after that,
32:55
Speaker 1: plus like if you've got your health now, like why
32:58
Speaker 1: would that not be the case? Like that's twenty years
33:02
Speaker 1: of really impactful work that you would be doing.
33:04
Speaker 2: That it's absolutely worth it.
33:06
Speaker 1: But I'm very much embrace what you want to do,
33:08
Speaker 1: because there's no such thing as too late.
33:10
Speaker 5: Stop at you all encouragement to do it, do it,
33:12
Speaker 5: go to medical, go to meds.
33:14
Speaker 1: But it's one of those things where if that's your passion,
33:16
Speaker 1: do it, follow it because it's not about what you earn,
33:20
Speaker 1: it's actually about how you feel. And there's a lot
33:23
Speaker 1: of research to say, you know, as much as we can,
33:26
Speaker 1: you know, loop back to what you said before, like
33:27
Speaker 1: you had a really high income, that's not the thing
33:30
Speaker 1: that sparks joy. There's research to say that that actually
33:33
Speaker 1: caps out after about eighty thousand dollars, your happiness doesn't increase.
33:38
Speaker 1: So what can we do to fulfill our lives in
33:41
Speaker 1: every other way? And obviously we didn't get time to
33:43
Speaker 1: talk about your son today, but like if you're saying
33:45
Speaker 1: he's not well, like, it's really important to be embracing
33:48
Speaker 1: the things in our life that really spark joy and
33:50
Speaker 1: that make us happy and make us feel like we're
33:52
Speaker 1: having an impact. And I just think that you're doing that.
33:54
Speaker 1: And I'm really proud to say that you're a part
33:56
Speaker 1: of our community. So thank you for sharing your story
33:59
Speaker 1: and hanging out with us today and ranting about boards
34:02
Speaker 1: with me.
34:03
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure.
34:05
Speaker 3: It's been incredible. And if you want to have more
34:07
Speaker 3: of those conversations, you can join our Facebook group. We
34:09
Speaker 3: have conversations like that every week. Search She's on the
34:12
Speaker 3: money and we're on Instagram and TikTok now as wow.
34:14
Speaker 1: Gosh, don't talk about a day. Dan still on TikTok
34:17
Speaker 1: the other day in that.
34:18
Speaker 4: Ce fantastic, thank you, thank you.
34:21
Speaker 2: So it was terrible. It took a lot of shots
34:23
Speaker 2: and then it wasn't even right.
34:24
Speaker 1: I was like, we're just calling it, We're just putting
34:26
Speaker 1: it out, we're calling it.
34:27
Speaker 3: So so she's on the money, aus. But don't forget, guys,
34:30
Speaker 3: that the advice shared on shees on the money is
34:32
Speaker 3: general in nature and just not consider your individual circumstances.
34:35
Speaker 3: She's on the money exists purely for educational purposes and
34:38
Speaker 3: should not be relied upon to make an investment or
34:40
Speaker 3: a financial decision. And we promise Victoria divine and She's
34:43
Speaker 3: on the Money. Are authorized representatives of Infocused Securities Australia
34:47
Speaker 3: Proprietary Limited ABN four seven oh nine seven seven nine
34:50
Speaker 3: seven oh four nine AFSL two three six five two three.
34:54
Speaker 2: See you on Wednesday, guys, Bie
35:00
Speaker 1: The Sea