Latest / The Expert Method / Your Story is The Strategy

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Your Story is The Strategy · The Expert Method

• speaker-0: Welcome back to Systems of Scale. I'm Ian Gatsky. Today I'm joined by Katherine Tuminan. Katherine is the founder of Catalyst Brand Strategy. What I found interesting about her work is that she's not just helping founders get seen, she's helping them figure out what they actually want to be known for, what in their story gives them a real point of view, and how to turn that into visibility that feels credible rather than performative. In this conversation, we get into what thought leadership actually is and why it has a lot less to do with posting more and a lot more to do with developing original ideas over time. We talk about how to find the thread in your own story that makes your perspective distinct, why marketing breaks down when every channel is treated like its own little island, and why better products still beat better promotion in the long run every day. We also get into the difference between short-term visibility and long-term credibility, which I think is one of the more important distinction founders can make right now. If you're new here and you get value from this conversation, hit subscribe and share it with a friend. And now here is my conversation with Catherine. Catherine, thank you so much for being here. speaker-1: Thank you for having me and it's pleasure. speaker-0: A lot of founders and business owners and people entering the content game talk about thought leadership, right? They talk about this idea of them wanting to become a thought leader. That phrase gets thrown around a lot. But when you think about thought leadership, what does it actually mean and what does it look like when somebody is doing it well? speaker-1: Great question, thank you. Yes, so when it comes to thought leadership, especially with the AI slop currently available, I think anyone who, you know, there's almost this way of wanting to hack it or make it shorter and easier to digest like these sound bites, but real thought leadership comes from cultivating unique ideas. And that's not necessarily something that can be easily formed by just kind of chucking it into AI. You really have to analyze a lot of data information and synthesize that in a way that's unique based on your personal expertise. And that's how you essentially create your keynote talk or the framework that you're known for. And that is not something that can necessarily happen overnight. It's usually through decades worth of research and studies and the clients that you've worked with face to face where you're able to unearth these sort of deeper insights that can't easily be Googled. And that's really the most precious. form of thought leadership because you're truly sharing something that is unique and it is a methodology that you've shaped through and through. And so obviously a lot of founders, it's easier said than done in the sense that they have so much wealth of knowledge and they don't know how to easily communicate this in a framework or a clear 60 minute talk. And that's where we come in to really consolidate what do they want to be known for and how can we pull this all together. speaker-0: AI is not going to help you get the seed of the idea. The seed of the idea is a precious magical thing that comes from the ether. Nobody knows where these ideas, where these thoughts come from. It's just a subconscious thing that arises after, like you said, decades of experience and wisdom that's piled up. That experience just culminates in some new idea that just comes from who knows where. It's pretty magical. But do you have a process that you guide your clients to help pull those ideas out of them and help them? shape them it sounds like. speaker-1: Absolutely, yes. So the biggest thing, we hear this a lot in the marketing space called UVP, so your unique value proposition, and it gets tossed around a lot as like a, I guess a buzzword in the marketing world. But I often say that it's often the unlikely aspects of their story that end up resonating most with the audience that they're trying to connect with. So a lot of the time, especially when you leave a role like in your former corporate role or you start a new position, there's this tendency to almost like shy away from your history and just focus on what you want to be known for in the current. path. But actually, I often find that there's a thread that has linked every single part of your life or career path. And when you can find that thread or that kind of correlating through line, kind like the hero's journey, that's where it's much easier to convey what makes you unique in this space and bring people along that journey with you to why you got here, where you are today. So we have to kind of start. at the very start and really kind of unearth as much as we can through a thorough audit, which of course we do throughout decades of work. And then that's when we'll be able to basically crunch all, we do use AI for this, synthesize the information. And that's how we're able to then figure out, ⁓ there's common keywords or common points or perspectives that's popped up every single time, even in completely different verticals. And that helps us really identify where that person's unique value lies. speaker-0: So everybody has a story. Everybody has an idea worth sharing, stories worth sharing. But if somebody's listening to this and they want to kind of do that reflection or that kind of retroactive exploration through their journey to kind of maybe uncover some of those threads, what are some questions or some prompts that they could consider in a quiet moment with a notebook to kind of try and uncover some of these threads in their life? speaker-1: I would definitely suggest going through your more of the, what's known as psychographics rather than demographics. What this means is basically you need to be asking the deeper kind of questions around if you chose to leave somewhere or if you chose to pivot, what was that breaking point? So we can go back to Joseph Campbell's work, The Hero's Journey, that's always such a great framework. So it's basically like the hero lives his normal life and then something happens that disrupts him. And suddenly he's like, I cannot continue living my life this way, something needs to change. And so that is often a really great starting point. If you look at those pivotal moments in your life where you've considered a change, whatever that may be, whether it's location, work, partner, etc., you'll often notice that there is this through line with why you decided to go down that path. And it does often tie into your core values. There's another exercise if the Hero's Journey map isn't helpful, which is, Bernie Brown kind of coined it. It's basically where you look at like. you list all the different values that exist. could be like freedom, loyalty, et cetera. And then you pair it down to just your top three and you ask yourself, why is that one more valuable to me than the other one? And eventually you'll come down to the kind of core three. And you'll notice that the more you live within the three values, the more happy and aligned your life will feel because of course it's unique to you. So I would say those two exercises are very helpful when you're kind of starting to unearth your story and what you want to be known for. speaker-0: I'm going to try and pull on a thread here, pun intended. But I think the idea of going back in that first exercise of looking at the moments of change, moments of transformation, moments of disruption in your own story, to really sit in those moments and really just reflect on why, what happened, why did I choose this certain direction, is really interesting that it works to help you uncover your unique ideas, your unique values. Because I think these unique ideas that people are trying to communicate and teach other people, are designed to create change in their life. So if you want to create change in other people, you have to look at the moments where you changed and then understand why or what happened. That's an interesting kind of thing there where it's like, OK, if you want to create change in others, look at the things that created change in you and how you handled that and then how can you teach others. Maybe that's a simplified way of saying it, but there's something interesting there, I think. speaker-1: Absolutely, I appreciate that simplification. think it's very true and also it's kind of like as humans we're not, we don't like change. We always like look for ways to kind of go back to routine in some way. So it makes sense that in these moments of disruption, that's where it often reveals the most about who you are at your core and how you handle that. speaker-0: You know, I'm trying to take my own stab at speaking, right? And ⁓ creating ideas worth sharing and whatnot. But I found in advice that I've heard from others and also in my own anecdotal experience, like the more vulnerable you can be in what you're sharing, the more that that resonates with other people, right? You try to put on this facade, it just doesn't resonate. Like people can just sense that you're putting something on, right? Like you just have to be you, be authentically you, be vulnerable and being vulnerable and doing that is hard. Right? it means you put yourself out there, you're exposing yourself up for the world. what I've seen in other people that have been successful in building a presence, building a brand, or building a following, being a thought leader, right? They didn't necessarily do it. They didn't really start being the main objective, right? They just wanted to share their ideas. They just wanted to be out there, right? Just help people. Right? So starting with that idea of like, want to get a million followers. Like that's just not going to be the right North Star. Would you agree? speaker-1: Absolutely, through and through, well said. And I think on that as well, ⁓ it's almost like going back to that conversation around cringe and maybe this is more of like a next generation thing, but people don't want to kind of show up and share in case they're judged for it. But actually, I think that often it's when you are authentic where that's where people relate to you most, even if it isn't necessarily like what's perceived as cool or whatever. So going back to kind of like how to kind of break through and actually show up authentically, that's a whole other thing because it's just involves a level of bravery that I think people aren't yet used to because we're so conditioned to kind of like. code switch and be in a different mode when we're at work. So my advice to someone who's kind of struggling to show up on camera or, you know, to share their story in a way that might feel very vulnerable, but maybe require to truly connect with their audience is to, I mean, what I did was shadow prompts or journals where you're just really like confessing the hard moments and going deeper into stuff that you haven't really sat with or wanted to address. And I think when you can do that for yourself, it becomes so much easier to then do that publicly. Whereas, you know, could get a journalist ask you a question out of the blue, and suddenly you're nervous and you don't know what to say, and you might just go for like a kind of standard response. And it's a missed opportunity to really connect and go deeper. So it has to start from within for sure. speaker-0: Speaking of starting from within, I would imagine that in order for you to be able to help others do this, you had to do this work yourself. But like what are the final outputs that we're driving towards, right? What are those things that we need to establish or define that kind of serves as the foundation of your brand or of your platform that you're looking to build or the ideas that you're looking to communicate? So I'm curious to know what... Did you kind of discover where your threads like what is like and what were those? What did those outputs look like? Right? Was it a set of values that you've uncovered for yourself that now are like the foundation of everything that you talk about, the ideas that you communicate or kind of what is that final output that you got to for yourself when you did this work? speaker-1: I would say it's best described as my pivotal change moment was when I left a very toxic workplace and it was because they fundamentally went against my values where they basically pit women against each other just for the sake of entertainment and views and all the rest. It taught me a lot around the power of storytelling and what happens when, was before and after me too, what happens when women come together and openly speak about things that they are passionate about and advocate for their rights. And so it also taught me about, you know, well, what would a healthy workplace look like and how would I build that for myself? so Catalyst very much is about that first and foremost. I want to make sure the team is truly thriving and loving their role as best as possible and living that value through and through. And this kind of core sentiment is something that our clients are often attracted to because they understand much like myself, they've been through that aha moment where they were. pushed to the limit or they reached a breaking point and they thought enough is enough. How can I do this differently even if it hasn't been modeled yet in the way that I was taught or sold or once believed? And so there is almost this like inner rebellion that I've noticed clients approach us with wanting to change systems or change frameworks for something better that they truly believe in. And that's very much at the core of what we do. speaker-0: And I think a lot of what you're saying reminds me of this idea that once you find that authentic version and that vulnerable version, you start putting it out there, it's going to attract people like that. And you're only going to really get that, like make that happen. Like your marketing or your message is really only going to convert once it's one authentic to you because people are going to be able to, again, sense that and then that's going to attract those kinds of people, which it sounds like it did with you and Catalyst. speaker-1: Exactly, yes, much like the name implies, you know, we're not necessarily going to go with status quo. speaker-0: Sweet, it sounds like this is the kind of work, like these exercises, this finding the threads, finding the seeds of the unique ideas that your clients have is, I would imagine, the first thing that you do with them. That kind of lays the foundation of their message, of their brand, to use a very overused term in brand. But what do you put together for them? Is it like their brand blueprint? What do you create for those clients? speaker-1: Once we've done the audit, we can then come through with a more clear strategy of, we've noticed some gaps, this is how you're being positioned in comparison to competitors, all the usual marketing stuff. And then we're able to put together a more clear story. So that usually comes together in a media kit. And this is very valuable for those who want to get further press or coverage in some capacity, because it's basically like a CV for journalists who are too time-consuming to look at your full website and go through the full audit. So they just want a quick reference point where they can look at what your story is, what are some high level numbers and stats, what's your brand story and how is that different, and then some key assets like visuals, just to make sure that it truly aligns with their publication. that very much becomes the core of ⁓ what we do for more of the media space. And that storyline can be repurposed across socials, their website, etc. So we wanna make sure that the communication is consistent. speaker-0: Love it. A lot of marketing still happens in silos, right? Like the ads have one message or one team doing it, then the PR is over here and they're not really communicating, right? They're operating in silos. So when you're working with a founder, how do you think about designing the whole communication ecosystem instead of just plugging in individual tactics for like the different silos of marketing, I guess? How do you, how does it all work together? speaker-1: So we call this holistic marketing, which also sounds like a buzzword, but it basically just means that we believe that it can all compound together. So instead of working in silos, like you mentioned, there is ways that we can basically build off of what already exists. So to give you a few examples, there's a lot around content repurposing right now. And it's the idea that you can show up once, do a long form content like this, 40 minutes, and then that should become at least 30 other pieces of content. So it means that you as a founder only show up for maybe like an hour for the month, but then you've created... daily content that goes out so it looks like you're showing up every day on those platforms. And there's so many AI tools that allow us to do this these days, but it could include ⁓ getting the transcript, turning that transcript into a newsletter, turning that transcript into multiple blogs that kind of flesh out the idea, creating lead magnets that then link to the blogs so you can capture those emails, and then sequences that kind of go through that. And then likewise, social media, could turn into little clips that you could put on the different channels or captions. So that's just one very brief example, but you can see even from that, that is one communications piece. Maybe it was a live broadcast they did on a huge network, and that has now become a full month's worth of content across all these different touch points. And so I really think that the more you can kind of unite your team under that core message and high quality pieces of content or media coverage or whatever that can be distributed, the more you save obviously, and the more clear it is. what your message is so you can connect with clients and customers easily. So yeah, that's one of the examples I would give. speaker-0: Yeah, repetition is persuasive. People need to be hearing a similar kind of tone, similar message, similar. It needs to sound like you. It needs to sound the same, whether it's an ad on a website, know, an ad on Instagram, a blog post, a podcast, like kind of needs to just work in harmony, right? It can't just be isolated. speaker-1: Yes, and then obviously, you we consider different phases of ⁓ customer journey and we align that there as well. But I think there's also something to be said for at the very end when you do a reporting and looking at that analysis of how something actually performed or the way the public perceived it, then going back and reiterating. And there's no point in just one team, for example, meta ads discovered this ad performed better, and they don't share that with the PR side, even though actually would probably be useful information for everyone to know. I just think transparency across the board. obviously just is a better use of resources. speaker-0: Absolutely. Honesty is the best policy. Transparency, visibility, I had numbers don't lie. One thing that I heard that really blew my mind at the end of last year is I went to a workshop with this guy who's been in the marketing game for a long time and he's worked with some big names like Alex or Mozi, just a lot of like big players, right? And it was just like, okay, I'm gonna listen to this guy. There were two things. First, the number one goal of marketing, all marketing, number one objective of all marketing is growing the business. Right. Everything in marketing feeds that number one core objective. And I'm like, Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Right. When he asked the room, everybody's like, I'll generate leads, branding, whatever. And it's just like, no, it's grow the business. Number one objective of marketing is to grow the business. Second question that he asked was what is the most powerful lever in marketing, right? Or in turn powerful lever in growing the business. And he mentioned that it was improving the product, right? A lot of the high level CMOs, large companies. you ask them like, Hey, what do you spend most of your time focused on? They say product, right? Because a better product creates more happy customers and there's nothing more valuable to growing a business than more happy customers. Cause they leave better testimonials. They refer others, they buy more of your stuff in the future and they stay on your program for longer. So that's an idea that I've taken and ran with. I'm like, okay, how can I focus just more on product before anything else? So how do you and the team at catalyst spend time thinking about product and working with your founders, with your clients, on improving the product? speaker-1: As marketers, we can sell anything, so to speak, but ethically, that doesn't always mean we want to or should be selling anything. But also, like you said, there are things that are much easier to convey to the customer and better for retention, ⁓ long-term value, all that kind of stuff. So it just makes sense to, obviously, focus on the core value that you are delivering and making sure that that really follows through on every end. And then there's a ripple effect where that then means press is easier to get and all the rest. So internally at the moment, we're very focused on the full customer life cycle. again, not to get too into the buzzwords or the speak, but what this looks like in practice is we're very mindful of the use of AI these days and we're creating better agentic AI systems where instead of needing to retrain it every single time there's a new piece of information or a new client coming through, instead it actually reiterates based on the reports that we do and continues to optimize and improve. So this just means that obviously we're saving time on our end and the team is able to spend more time in their zone of genius with the high level strategy and coming up with unique ideas and less getting bogged on like making small changes, tweaks here, copy things that can be automated. And so basically we're spending more time on solving smart problems instead of solving things that could be easily outsourced to AI and tools. So that's a big thing that I'm currently focusing on, like many marketers in this space. It'll mean it's an easier ecosystem for the customers to really see their end-to-end experience, and instead of having these kind of like bottlenecks or blocks at certain touch points. speaker-0: I love it. Is there any work that you and your team do with your clients on product improvement? Like, hey, based on like, hey, we're going to add some kind of conversation with our customer. We're going to hear from your customers, what they love about the product, what they don't like about the product. now, hey, we're a marketing agency. We're here to help you grow your business. One of the most powerful things that you could do is improve your product. We got this feedback from your customers, maybe make this change the product and prove it. I don't know if that is, is that anything that you guys are working on? speaker-1: Yes, I think it's important to be co-creating, obviously, and improving with the customers or clients, whether they be directly or indirectly. mean, surveys, there's back and forth as to whether people do them, but that's a great starting point because at least there's an incentive there and it can be really insightful in terms of what they truly believed could be improved on. But I think a lot of it is, you know, we're working one-to-one with these people. It's not like a distant thing where we have to to see the feedback or read the review necessarily. So we can tell when something's dropped the ball, when things haven't worked as smoothly. And it's always good to hear that from their perspective as well. But often, you know, it is that kind of like gut or face-to-face connection where we can easily see this is where things could be improved. I think we're that far removed that we're detached from seeing the output, which is kind of nice because it means that it becomes easier to kind of tweak and reiterate as we go. speaker-0: What kinds of clients are you typically working with? speaker-1: Yeah, we specialize in the health and wellness industry. So we typically work with founders who have reached their first million. They're slowly climbing up to the first 10 million and what was working is no longer working. And they are also eventually looking at succession or an exit strategy and they haven't yet got the kind of systems in place and they would like to be a well-known thought leader. So they can essentially work more on the business development and less on... weeds of the day to day. So it's a very fun space to be in because ⁓ they've kind of achieved great results for the early stages and they're really looking at, what can we do to kind of really make this a more established business both in terms of client perception and customer perception as well as internally. speaker-0: If you know anything about marketing, know that polarization is a real nice tool to have in the bag for effective marketing. And not many industries like health and wellness that people have strong opinions on like, no, this is right. Nobody's got to figure it out in that world. But there's a lot of amazing stuff coming in that industry. So, fun brands to work with. So with these health and wellness clients that you're working with, is there any communication that you're having with them? Not so much about your product, improving your product and the service that you deliver to them. but any conversation around how they could improve their product. Because them improving their product is the most powerful lever to them growing their business too. If we agree on the premise that improving product is the most powerful lever in marketing, you as a marketing agency, are you spending any time having any conversation with those clients beyond just the PR, the ads, the content that you're putting out with them, but any conversation around their product and maybe improvements that they could make to that. speaker-1: The short version of this is I really want to create something where, especially for health and wellness, right now when you look at marketers, we look at like the landing page, open rates, whatever, like all these generic numbers, but actually wellness products can change lives, right? I mean, it's someone who's sleeping better. It's someone who is supporting their mental health. There's actual life-changing results that come from this, and there's no tool that currently exists that I know of where you can actually measure that person's life improved, and because their life improved by X measure. they ended up purchasing X times more or they ended up becoming a long-term client because of why. And so there's this gap between actually measuring that second step that isn't marketing per se, it's actually the product or the wellbeing aspects like the outcomes. And that doesn't get traced. We just know that this customer came back. So we assume they liked it. Maybe they left a good review, but we don't actually know how did that really impact their wellness. So I would love this to exist because I think if we're starting to measure impact in this way, it would really change the way businesses. start to think of what they're truly making and putting out in this world because we now have a new metric for success that is more focused around impact. It's something I would love to build, but obviously it's not a simple thing to build in the sense that there are so many variables and how would you even begin going about this process? But it's in the back of my mind that I'd love to explore this and at least start the conversation because especially as founders, a lot of us are impact driven and we aren't always just thinking of the bottom line. And so it's nice. a nice way to measure the triple bottom line and see the direct correlation between someone's wellness improved and that actually meant that they came back and became a repeat customer. And so there is value in offering better quality products. speaker-0: Right. Yeah. And while that's not maybe a straightforward bottom line metric, it really is what drives the bottom line at the end of the day is solving a problem, providing value, creating an impact and others. But yeah, someone listening who wants an idea that would be incredible if somebody could build a system like that, that could measure the impact and the value received of products beyond just like somebody leaving a review and being happy and whatever. like something that could somehow capture that data and that information would be. pretty amazing. So somebody go vibe code that and let me and Catherine know. Yeah, amazing. So it sounds like you're working with businesses, right? They're doing a million. But if you were working with a bit, that was let's say the hundred K mark, right? You know, you're the classic line of one product, one niche, one channel to a million, right? Just focus on one channel. I know there's no right answer to if you could only pick one channel, like, but if you were to decide speaker-1: reason. speaker-0: because there's no one size fits all for anybody, but how would you go about deciding what the number one channel to focus on for generating leads should be for your business? Like how would you kind of navigate that process? Like if somebody was starting their business and they wanted to decide what's the channel that's gonna yield the highest results for me, how would you kind of go through and make that determination? speaker-1: there's two sides to this. So one, I would ask them, you know, what channel are you actually spending any time on? Which one do you prefer? Because that will just make it a bit easier for them to understand. I kind of consider all the channels like different countries. They all have different cultures. They all have different kind of like social codes. And so you kind of need to have at least a general idea of what that is to be able to then show up in that capacity and make it a little bit easier. So it's the first question I ask. And then of course, it always comes down to where their ideal clients are, where their customers are. They're everywhere, right? Like everyone uses all the platforms to some degree, but there are some where they might use them more heavily. And so what we actually do is we scrape all the forums, like reddits, anything open, and we look for kind of key terms or words that come up based on their ICP or ideal customer profile. And then we're able to better determine like, ⁓ it seems like this is who they are from that psychographic perspective, and therefore they're likely to be spending more time on these following channels. So we're able to kind of compare that with what they prefer and then figure out a balance there. I think it has to be, like you said, it really is worth going all in on one instead of spreading yourself thin. Sure, you can always repurpose, but it's so much better off to just like hone in on the preferred channel. speaker-0: It's going to take a while to learn how to be effective on one channel and it's going to take a while to get traction on one channel. And it just requires a level of focus, right? And when you're starting a business, you don't have a huge team. Maybe you could contact somebody like Catherine and the catalyst team and they can take it off your plate. Yeah. You just got to focus on one thing, just like nail one thing, get a repeatable process, get proven results, get traction on one channel and then build that out like that. One channel should take you to a million and then you can start to spread out from there. And then. That's when you hit up Katherine, because that's when she's going to want to work with you when you hit that million mark. Actually, I already take you there. So what's the vision with Catalyst? Let's kind of take a minute to dream, I guess, a little bit. But what's the vision for Catalyst? Where do you want to be with the biz? speaker-1: A big part that I'm currently working on is more of the thought leadership for myself, much like founders in this current phase, showing up on podcasts, going to more events, just getting the ideas out there in a way that I haven't yet been able to as I was very much focused on the business building. So it's nice to kind of get familiar with stepping away and outsourcing and giving it to the team and all the rest of the things we hear about regularly. And of course, there's a whole bunch of inner obstacles that come with that, letting go to some degree, delegating all the rest. So it's been a nice phase to be entering into, and I'm just enjoying the journey so far. But in terms of our bigger vision, yeah, I would love to potentially look at the platform I mentioned and seeing if there is a way to bring this to life. I think there is so much value in that, especially in terms of not just the founder, if they were looking for investors, because then they could clearly measure, hey, this is another metric that indicates this is going to really work, but it works extremely well for marketers who may be wanting to quantify the quality of the work they've done and how this all ties together and also communicate back with the client, hey, you your product also can be improved and here is why. So it just is a win-win for everyone involved. And I think that ⁓ there is a need to have this conversation around what we're putting out in the world, why, and how it helps in a greater capacity. That's a big piece of what I'm currently working on in regards to the ethical marketing side of things. speaker-0: ethical marketing, I love that. Yeah, I mean, that would be another one of the insights that I didn't even consider with that platform is here is the feedback from your customers, is how you can improve your product. If you could get that real time feedback and a system could spit that out to you, my goodness, that would be insane. And you could build an AI that would have context on your supply chain, full context on your product. So not only could it say, hey, if you could get your product to do something like this and improve it this way, but also here's how to do that. That would be pretty freaking cool. That sounds possible. Doesn't sound like impossible. So that's pretty good. speaker-1: think it's just that we haven't valued it yet in the way that we would think. So it's kind of like, it seems obvious once I say it, but it's just, it's just not necessarily. speaker-0: Because there's a lot of thought leaders talking about how important your funnel is and how important your landing page copy and everything is out there. it hasn't really been prioritized, but truly I do. It makes so much sense ever since I heard it and I brought it up in most of my conversations with any fellow marketers. Like what is the most important lever in marketing? It's make a better product. Just focus on making a better product and everything else will come from that. Just make more happy customers. If you make more happy customers, your business will grow. Right? Just focus on that. Don't worry about the headline on your list. speaker-1: Yes, true. speaker-0: Right, obviously it's still important. Over the years of building Catalyst and working closely with founders, what's something that you've come to believe about building visibility and credibility that you didn't fully understand when you first started? speaker-1: The biggest thing that I've realized, which I didn't fully understand when I started, is the quality of things developing over time. So I think that also comes with kind of retrospect. But what I mean by this is if you've been doing something for a year, sure, you can build a certain amount of credibility and you can build an audience and hype and buzz around that. But there's something to be said for actually being in an industry and being in that field or known in that for decades on. So I think like Tony Robbins is such a great example of this. It's like... it's a giant in terms of that legacy that you're building and that can only come with time, right? It compounds and I think that's something maybe as I've gotten older that I've continued to appreciate more and more. And so instead of making kind of like just quick wins, I've really thought more about for ourselves and for clients, well, what can you be doing that's actually supporting your long-term legacy building and how it's that message different from just producing a quick win or a landing page that converts for the sake of it to sell something that's just like a one-time offer. So I think that conversation has changed obviously who we work with, but also how we approach decision making and problem solving. And it really does set founders up in a way that is more supportive for sustainable business in the long run. And that's something that I wouldn't have necessarily known even just a few years back. I would say time has a great compounding value, both in the PR space as well as just in general. speaker-0: That's wisdom right there, right? Just to play for the long term, be patient, build for the long term, optimize for the long term, right? Don't just focus on short, quick wins, but if you focus on the long term and you allow compounding, you tap into that, you lean into that, that's the most powerful force in nature. But if you had a giant billboard that everyone in the world could see for 10 seconds, what would it say and why? speaker-1: you're not alone and a total stranger genuinely cares, reach out or something like that. Because even though it's nothing to do with marketing or anything, it's something I genuinely believe in. And I have been in instances where I have met a total stranger online and she was suffering terribly with her mental health. And she was like, I wouldn't be here today if you hadn't reached out and even just offered a gentle note of kindness. So I would say something like that if I was billboard speaking to the world. I would just remind them that there is hope. speaker-0: Yeah, just care for each other. We're all we got. Catherine, thank you so much for the time. speaker-1: Thank you so much for your time, J.E. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. speaker-0: Thank you for listening. Here are my three main takeaways from my conversation with Catherine. Number one, thought leadership, the idea of being a thought leader, starts before you even publish any content. One of the clearest ideas in our conversation is that thought leadership is not a game of content volume. It starts with having a real point of view, and that usually comes from looking back at your experience, the moments of tension, and the moments that changed how you see the world. The content matters, but only after there's something worth saying underneath it all. Number two. Fragmented marketing usually reflects fragmented thinking. Catherine made a strong case that when messaging, PR, content, and distribution all operate separately, the brand starts to feel very disjointed because it is disjointed. Strong communication systems compound because they are built around one clear idea and one coherent story. They're all working together. That's true marketing. And honestly, it is the true in more operations that you can work on broadly. So good systems tend to get stronger when the parts actually talk together and work with one another. Number three, credibility compounds slower than most founders want, but that is exactly why it matters. Visibility can be manufactured in the short term, but credibility is something that's built through time with consistency, quality, and staying close to the real value that you're delivering. It is a long game and like most things, the hard part is the patience and the consistency required to see it through to get results. If you want to get connected with Catherine, you can find her links to her business and her other resources in the description of this episode. And if you run a coaching program course or mastermind and your clients aren't completing the work, download the free program execution system toolkit in the description. It shows you how to install what I call execution infrastructure, so clients actually follow through and get results. Thank you for listening and I'll see you in the next one.