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Lawyers: Ditch Hourly Billing & Get Paid! The Fidu Subscriptions Playbook (Kim Bennett) · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. First I talk to you about two really shitty reality shows and two really great movies. Come along with me. After that, Kim Bennett of Fidu joins the show. We talk subscriptions, legal tech, the white bread legal industry, and I found another generational hater of the Trump regime. Let's get it on. Finally, the Wheel of Justice is back. It's the summer edition. Now then, let's fandango, I'm not sure if I've ever shared this with you before audience, but I hate reality television. This isn't a new thing for me. I've always hated reality television. I remember when Survivor came out and people were fucking locked in on that shit. I was in law school, there were parties. Every bar I went to had Survivor on tv and my position was like, this is dumb. (01:11): If I want to see people acting like assholes to each other, I will simply step outside. But now I'm stuck watching this uniquely horrible reality show. Maybe you've seen it. It's got the guy from the Apprentice on it, except he's older. Stupider makes worse decisions about hiring and has somehow been given additional responsibilities. I'm not sure what's happening here. Oh wait, I'm being told that Donald Trump is actually the president and was once before and was reelected despite the fact that he tried to overthrow the government. It seems like some questionable decisions have been made. This whole Teleplay I've devised here kind of reminds me of the great scene and back to the future where 1955 Doc is trying to figure out whether 1985 Marty is insane instead of being a time traveler. And Marty tells him that Ronald Reagan is the president and Doc goes the actor. (02:16): Yeah, that's me right now, except I'm like the Dipshit game show host who bankrupted a casino. I swear to God, I'd rather have 2015 Biff Tannin as president. He used Les Bronzer and actually applied it evenly on Saturday night. Trump started an illegal war with Iran and I thought to myself, that's enough internet for today, Jared. So I turned to one of my guilty pleasures. You see, I have a Fandango at home account formerly Voodoo, and if you don't know what that is, that's where you can buy movies right after they leave the theater for like 20 bucks. I'm really cheap, but I decided I would spend 20 bucks on said movies sometimes if I felt like it as a form of retail therapy, and I'm not going to lie, it's been pretty fun. I've watched a lot of good movies that producer Evan Cheri would scoff at, but he's a snob. (03:09): So Saturday night I rented Sinners the new Ryan Coler, Michael B. Jordan Joint. Now I like both those dudes. Ryan Kugler's movies are usually excellent, including when he gets shoved into the marble machine to make Black Panther movies. And I've been a Michael B. Jordan fan since Parenthood. How about that? Also controversial but true. Take the Creed movies are better than the original Rocky movies. That's right, I fucking said it. Those are Ryan Coogler productions as well, starring Michael B. Jordan. Now, I love when people try new things, try to build new content that's not derivative or based on ip. That doesn't happen enough anymore, frankly, and sinners was mostly a totally new thing, so I think that's cool. However, I was concerned for one thing, I feel like period movies are hard to do for another thing, Michael B. Jordan, the B stands for Badass like ba Barus in case you're wondering. (04:07): He plays twins in the movie and I don't love the history of the same actor playing twins, non-parent trap division, both parent Trap movies, by the way. Plus, I think vampires suck, not Blood, they just suck. Well, I guess they suck blood too, but vampires are the main antagonists in this movie. I can happily report however that was pleasantly surprised. Sinners was fucking awesome. Michael B was great, one of the best movies I've seen in a long time. Spoilers follow. That's a warning. Spoiler warning, skip this part and move to the Kim interview if you haven't seen sinners yet and you don't want to be spoiled. So Michael B. Jordan playing twins. Phenomenal job. He played the characters differently enough that they seem like different people. Suspension of disbelief achieved. Also got a really good supporting cast. Haley Steinfeld has actually been in a lot of good movies, is one of the twins, girlfriends if we can pass for white. (05:12): Then you've got Wmi Maku whose name I probably butchered terribly, but she's the other twin's girlfriend and she's a voodoo priestess basically. She's great. We got a Delroy Lindo appearance in this movie. He's a blue singer and he's got some really funny lines, but the breakout star of the film was probably Miles Caton, who plays an aspiring blues singer and he really drives applause. So he's a cousin of the twins and they're trying to protect him so he doesn't become criminals like they have become. They just have come back home to Mississippi from Chicago where they were working for the mob basically when the movie starts. So they come back home, they're trying to start a juke joint and they're raising up resources for that project at the start of the movie that involves a Shopkeeping family who helped them and they're also very fun. (06:02): Another relative becomes a bouncer. He comes into play and a whole host of friends and neighbors gather together at the start of the movie. There are some really unbelievable tracking shots and the cinematography across the whole movie is awesome. Now, once the Duke joint starts going and they get a bunch of people there, probably the best scene in the movie is when Sammy the Blues singer plays so well that he raises different generations of singers who physically appear in the barn and play alongside him, including a Jimi Hendrix coated rockstar. This is really well done. You kind of have to see it to believe it. So things are going great, everybody's having a good time, but then shit gets real, real. There's a very Irish vampire for some reason, but it's cool because he can sing Irish folk songs really, really well as it turns out, and he gets wind of what Sammy can do. (06:58): So he starts to bite some people in the area and he says that he wants Sammy to raise some of his friends from the dead. So he basically says, give me Sammy, turn 'em over to me, or I'm going to turn you all into vampires. By the way, I love this angle. It's definitely a nod to AP Carter co-opting black music to kick off the country music genre. Well done, of course, because this is partly an action movie, there is this third choice, which is that most of the people are turned into vampires, say for Sammy and one of the twins whose name is Elijah, his nickname is Smoke. He apparently kills his twin brother, Elias, whose nickname is Stack Smokestack. Well done. I like that. But there's one other problem. If the vampires don't get the last remaining twin, who lives the clan will. (07:56): So it turns out that the guy who rented the barn to the twins to hosted Juke joint is secretly the local KKK leader, and his plan was to come out in the morning with his buddies and kill everybody, only smoke the twin who's still alive, predictably, instead kills all of them like 30 clan members, just laces them up before he dies from a bullet wound himself. I got to tell you, it's always satisfying to see KK K members getting just slaughtered like that. Just like the Nazis in Inglorious bastards just all time losers now as his second to last act smoke, send Sammy off to Chicago to become a blues singer, and he ends up being played by Buddy guy in the final scene. Yeah, I was surprised too that happened 60 years later when the other twin who everybody thought was Dead Stack comes back with his girlfriend for a visit. (08:51): Yes, they're alive. They're both vampires, and he tells Sammy his twin brother, let him live if he promised not to fuck around with Sammy an scene, end of the movie, excellent film, check it out. Really good part at the end of the movie where they talk about their last day at the Jupe joint stuff and how that was the only time they were free. Really, really good movie. You should check it out now, that's not quite enough for you and you're looking for a double feature. Another one of my favorite movies, which I still own on DVD actually is the Cohen Brothers old brother Wear Art Thou, which is sort of a companion film to sinners. The main difference is being that there are no vampires in O Brother and they softed the race issues of the Depression era south a bit. But the three escaped prisoners in that movie do fuck up a clan rally. (09:44): They launch into a musical performance and they also pick up a talented musician who sold his soul at the crossroads to the devil, which is basically the old Robert Johnson myth. Of course, it's also different. It's set about five years later in time, deeper into the Depression, and instead of being based on vampire myths, it's based on the Odyssey and there are exceptional themes on that trope, especially John Goodman's performance as a crooked bible salesman named Donald Trump. Oh shit, I'm sorry, that's big. Dan Teague is the character's name. My bad. There's more of a political angle at play as well where there's an ongoing election side plot and the ending is kind of a Deus X macina when there's just a giant flood that wipes everything out. And the finale of ris, I think is wrapped up and better executed, to be honest, although most of the rest of Oh Brother were out there was fantastic, but the two movies pair nicely on many levels, and you could spend a worse four hours than watching these two films back to back. In fact, I may just do that this weekend. Now I just got to find my DVD player and fire it up. Now as Penny says to Ulysses, I've spoken my piece and I've counted to three, well, four. (11:06): Next up, it's Kim Bennett of Fidu. Let's tear some more shit up. Welcome back. Unfortunately, I've run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast. So I'm just going to paint the wall behind me and then we can all watch it dry together. Are you ready? Now I'm bullshitting you. That sounds terrible. Let's interview our guest instead. How about that? My guest today, I don't know if we've ever done a podcast together, which is a damn shame, frankly, is Kim Bennett, founder of du. How are you, Kim? Welcome. Kim Bennett (11:46): I'm good, thank you. I don't think we have. I'm trying to think. I don't think so. Jared Correia (11:51): Yeah, I mean that's totally my bad. So feel free to internet masses throw vitriol my way. We should have done this a lot earlier. So you're known for several things, obviously, aside from being a badass, generally speaking, but Kim Bennett (12:08): Thank you. Jared Correia (12:08): Let's start with Fidu. So tell me if I fuck up the elevator pitch. That's a subscription management software for law firms. How did I do? Kim Bennett (12:21): Yeah, that's pretty decent. Yeah, I would say we do that, but we're focusing on the client experience side, so managing what you think about the payments, but that is to me the easiest part of this. It's really like the delivery, the retention, repeat client work, and how does that actually build from just a payment to a Jared Correia (12:40): Model. Okay, cool. So anything else you want to say about the software operations features are available? And then I'm also interested to know how did you come to join the company? I think that's an interesting story too. Kim Bennett (12:54): Yeah, so we do all the features, some new and exciting things are coming. Tell Jared Correia (12:59): Me the new and exciting stuff if you can. Can. Kim Bennett (13:02): Okay, well, I will tease it a little bit. So we do everything from engagement to disengagement. So we support that entire lifecycle and we really focus on the client's experience. So from the time they sign up, so you can build a subscription inside of du, then you can manage it, you could do upsells, you could do managing your usage, Jared Correia (13:22): You Kim Bennett (13:23): Can communicate. So think about all the things you could do right now if you had a very level one portal, and then take that to a platform experience where you can do the full 360. And so we have some more clearly AI related features. We've released some AI stuff before, but we want it to be more thoughtful about how we did it to make sure it isn't just a one-time thing or just for the sake of saying you have AI and really allow for it to support the business model of running a subscription and a flat fee business. So I'm really excited about that and some of the things that we're doing and some of the integrations that we're dialing up. So we integrate with things like Clio and confio and LawPay and all the things that you can think of and just continuing down. But we have a new version of our service builder that's coming out. So probably by this time it won't quite be released, but that's coming. Jared Correia (14:13): What's the old version of the service builder? So Kim Bennett (14:15): It's a little more how does Jared Correia (14:15): That work? What does that mean? Kim Bennett (14:16): More manual? (14:17): So before you could still come into FIU and do it, but really our goal is to allow for you to bring your knowledge and let us take your knowledge, leveraging the theory that we know that I've done with practicing that I've done with coaching. Now that we have the platform and allow for you just to have a conversation with the platform so that it can design your version one subscription that you can then refine from there. So we really want to take some of the lift out of it. The biggest thing that I've always said that keeps someone from launching a subscription is just getting the crap out there about to curse, getting it out there. Jared Correia (14:51): This is a show where you can swear if you wish. Kim Bennett (14:53): Okay, well thank you. But yeah, but you just have to get the crap out. People don't do it. They tell me all the reasons why it doesn't work, and at the end of the day, it's just because you're getting stuck. And I'm a perfectionist in recovery, still trying to work through it. We're talking about it before we even went live. But yeah, so that's what it's about, getting people out of perfectionism and getting them to have their version one subscription. So right now you could do that in video, but you do need to kind of build it out. And so what this will do is allow for you just to visualize it, talk through it, and not worrying about building all the things from the start. Jared Correia (15:28): Gotcha. Okay. So it's a jumpstart for a lot of attorneys. Kim Bennett (15:31): Yes. Jared Correia (15:31): That makes Kim Bennett (15:32): Sense. Yes. Jared Correia (15:33): So you came about this, honestly, you were an advocate for subscription pricing for a while before you jumped onto the Fido train. Kim Bennett (15:44): Yes, Jared Correia (15:45): That's Kim Bennett (15:45): Right. Jared Correia (15:46): You used it in your own law practice, which I think is still active at this point. Kim Bennett (15:51): Technically it's there. Jared Correia (15:54): So we surely have attorneys listening to this who don't use subscriptions or any kind of alternative billing, just straight, hourly, Kim Bennett (16:02): Sad, sad, sad. Jared Correia (16:04): Beyond the description of how the software works. It's like, give me the pitch for subscriptions in general. Why would I do that if I was a lawyer? Kim Bennett (16:14): Yeah, you want to have no accounts receivable. How many people like to be the bank for your lawyer, for your clients? I mean, I ran a subscription for almost 15 years and I mean counting today still, and I didn't have accounts receivable when I moved over. So I think that is your number one reason to stop being the bank. But all on beyond that, then it gives you time back, it gives you freedom, gives you flexibility, it gives you what worked for me. So if you like chasing money, if you like to not get paid, if you like to have the friction between your clients that comes from hourly billing, then stay where you're at. It's amazing. I get it. You like it feels good, but if you like to get paid on time all the time, if you like to remove the friction of having payment conversations, if you like to be very transparent about your pricing and not let it be a barrier to a client, but let them make an informed decision and so that you can bring forecastability and predictability to your revenue, not just today, but for the next couple of months and beyond. (17:11): Well then yeah, come to our world fluffy and Jared Correia (17:14): Subscriptions. I feel like you set up a straw man there. I don't feel like anyone actually wants any of that stuff stuff. Kim Bennett (17:19): I hope not. I dunno. Jared Correia (17:23): So you've got the subscription builder, you've done it yourself. I think the biggest problem lawyers have in terms of subscription is what is it based on? Can there be hours involved? Do you have to totally unplug from the hourly model? And then how would you do that? Is it project based? What are the broad outlines people should be thinking about? Kim Bennett (17:46): Definitely project based. I think ours are a metric for your productivity, not a metric for billing. It just moves you in the wrong direction. If you wanted to trade time for money and you want it to be on someone's clock, be an employee, but instead you're a provider of a service, of a product or whatnot. So instead be good about having internal metrics to help you understand what you need to get to your deliverables, get to your, of course, we can't promise things, but get to at least what you talk to and your deliverable may not be what they liked, but it's at the end. And I think for the most part what the issue is, is that we just don't treat ourselves like businesses. I mean, this is going to be nothing new, right? People say it all the time. But the reality is when we are designing law firms and legal businesses, we're just thinking, well, I'm just going to help you solve this thing. (18:35): No, what's the end goal? What does it actually mean for the client? What are they trying to achieve? And then build systems and processes and products and projects around it to move them closer to that outcome. Even if they don't get to the end result, you've moved them. We don't promise things, but you should be moving people closer to the journey and to the outcome that they're looking to achieve. And if you're not, then that's a problem with your business. And what I would say is yes, if you're doing hourly today, if that's what you need to do to start transitioning, do it. Let that be your initial metric. But as you build the model, you'll stop making hourly be the thing you're thinking about and thinking more about how do I accomplish this? How do I think? How do I use better systems and technology and be more creative and more curious about how I show up for my clients? Jared Correia (19:19): You really are doing a good job not being a perfectionist. Just start regardless. Throw some hours in there. Kim Bennett (19:25): Yeah, just start mean if you have to, Jared Correia (19:28): Let me ask you this. So it's not just subscription services necessarily. Like you see lawyers adopting flat fees more regularly products, do you see people using fdu or people that you talk to adopting these alternative models? Kim Bennett (19:44): Sure. I mean, so FIU support subscriptions, but subscriptions are just flat fees on steroids is how I talk about it. So essentially that just means if you do a flat fee today, you can do a subscription. It's re-imagining how you package that flat fee into something that is both some level of strategy components plus some level of execution components. And if you can start thinking about how you show up to give advice in one hand and then you show up to do action items on the other, you can really start re-imagining how you just put together something. So absolutely flat fees. We support that in the same way we support subscriptions, because if we didn't, we wouldn't really support a subscription model. But I see people using interesting ways, which is always fun. The type of person, when I tested a bunch of tech, I stretch tech, so we see people stretching it to their needs, but it's built for a subscription of fluffy businesses. Jared Correia (20:36): I feel like it's really what you're trying to cobble together is a different value proposition for clients. And you could do that in a whole host of ways if you're creative. Kim Bennett (20:44): Yeah, and I think we're in this space now where a lot of us have focused on the high net worth or the very nuanced part of the law, or we're such in a small subsection of the law. And then the other end is the do it yourself side, which is needed and it's going to continue to grow. But there's this middle segment, we all talk about it, but what is the reality of the middle segment to the people who need to actually get legal services that happen day in, day out, and they need somewhere in between a little bit of DIY with a little bit of done for you, and that's where DU comes in. Sure, we can do the completely high value, high net worth stuff that people do today and du sure. But I think the bigger gap, the thing that we've yet to solve that we are really working on is giving that middle ground, which is like that number we all talk about, 80% or whatever. Let's solve that and be more interesting and stop saying you can't price in interesting ways you can, and the technology supports it today, and you might as well start freaking doing it. Jared Correia (21:44): Yeah, that's a good point. There's a lot of, when I talk to people about remodeling their pricing structure, I can't do that. Well, you can do fucking anything Kim Bennett (21:51): You just don't want. People always say to me, oh my God, be thoughtful about people. Sorry about that. I was like, people would be like, I don't know what I would want to get paid. And I'm like, well, you do. So okay, let's put it in a timeframe. Let's give it a month. How much do you want to make this month? And if somebody said, Hey, do X, Y, and Z and they'll pay you $50,000 for the month, could you figure it out? I'm sure you can figure it out a hundred thousand. So find your number and then work and figure out how to build a business around that. And just be honest, I think people don't know because we've been quite frankly, lazy with the hourly model to just default back versus saying, no, how much time should this take me? Or how much? I only have 24 hours in a day and I'm not, well, if you want to work 24 hours more power to you, not me. So if you want to work like a normal person and be healthy and be sane, then you're not going to work that many hours in a day. So how can you figure out a way to think about what is realistic, what is pragmatic, and then what do you need to do to be able to get the results that your clients are hoping for you to achieve with Jared Correia (22:52): Them? Yes, it's cool to build something out, test it, iterate on it. That's all. Okay. That's what business people are supposed to do actually. Kim Bennett (23:01): I mean, as long as you think of yourself as a business as you're running a firm, because we are, but Jared Correia (23:05): Which is step one. Okay, so talked about AI stuff, everybody for years it's been like, okay, now this is the thing that's going to kill the billable hour. It's over, but it's never fucking over. So is AI the thing or is it something else, or is it a combination of factors? Kim Bennett (23:27): I think AI has one of the biggest, it's a big momentum. It has a big opportunity to change. And I think it's not simply because of our access to it, but I think it's the public's access to it and then their expectations from it. And I think perception of the law and the legal industry continues to shift, whether that's in corporate or individual personal level of interacting with the law. And I think when knowledge becomes less of a barrier and lawyers hate, well, someone can draft a contract on Chacha. Bt, you may not like the contract, but unless they have a freaking issue, they're going to use that shit and keep on going. And we have to start actually being realistic. I started my career in business. I didn't start in a firm and every day inside the business, people are doing things that you would call legal, but the business operated it's billion dollars, it's still moving and shaking, and it didn't fall apart. (24:23): I think AI will be a big transformation or transformative, what's the word? I'm trying to think. It will power the change much faster than I think a lot of things could because it's not something that we only have access to. And I think because the public has access to it, because there's so much momentum behind it and that it has us reimagine what time actually means, and the way that we've built for this expertise that now 80%, 70%, 50% can get started. You have to figure out another way to show up. So yeah, I'm someone that doesn't think it's going to kill law. It's just going to reimagine how we do law, and it's going to tell us that unless you want to bill a thousand dollars an hour, 2000, $5,000 an hour, which sounds stupid, come with a better pricing structure that actually helps people get to an outcome and keeps you profitable. So it's not to say, I think actually if lawyers and law firms embrace this more with all the right checks and balances, I think actually we have the opportunity to make even more money, which is, Jared Correia (25:33): I would agree, $5,000 an hour sounds bad. I agree. Especially to legal consumers, but I dunno about your experience. Most of the clients I've worked with who do subscriptions or non-traditional billing, they actually make more money and they work less. So Kim Bennett (25:51): I'm Jared Correia (25:51): Not a paid shill. That's what I see out there. Kim Bennett (25:55): It's true. And I think it's because you've built in systems and processes to get things done and you're trying to get a similar outcome. You're trying to figure out, well, how can I, and that's what we're all doing in this thing, right? Okay, my client comes to me with this issue. How do I get them that similar great, amazing result I got for the next person? Well, you got to put some process and systems, some qa, some qc. So I feel like we've always touched on such a small segment of the law that this gives us the opportunity to touch on all the crap. We never ever touch on that. We never hear the things that touch the people's daily. What we impact are things that high net worth and high value companies really interact with. The other things we leave to pro bono, to justice pieces is just not right. And I think this will allow for us to expand and impact more people. Jared Correia (26:46): Yeah, it's interesting. I think it's funny, the ethics opinions on AI are like, well, you can't charge made up hours if you're using ai, but like wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Maybe you should try flat fee billing. How's that for a novel concept? Kim Bennett (27:01): Yeah. Jared Correia (27:02): When that's creeping into the ethics conversations, I think that's it. It's time to really consider it. Kim Bennett (27:07): I think they're like, well, the only way this works is if you stop billing by the hour and you go back to how we used to as a profession and just come up with a better pricing structure. Jared Correia (27:16): Now, I don't want to alarm you, but you may have noticed there's a lot of old white dudes in the legal profession. Have you seen Kim Bennett (27:23): This? I did not. Jared Correia (27:24): Yeah, it's true. I don't know. I just thought I would let you know, spoken as middle aged to aging white dude myself. And I saw you post on LinkedIn a little while ago about black founders, female founders. Not only are there not a lot of them unfortunately, but there's also not a lot of spaces where maybe those founders feel comfortable. So I want to ask you a little bit about your thoughts on that. Kim Bennett (27:49): Sure. Yeah. I think we are in a space, first of all, and being black in the legal industry as a lawyer, as someone who was in the IP space, I decided to be in interesting spaces in the law, first in traditional labor and then in ip, which you see very few black people in either of those practice areas. And I think that it's no different in legal tech, but what does that mean? What does that mean when you're a founder trying to push the industry and trying to do things different? It means that you're asked stupid questions. It means that you are looked over. It means that your funding doesn't get the same. It means that someone with half ass baked idea versus your years of experience, the half ass baked idea gets the notoriety and the funding really what it boils down to and not the exposure or the funding that is needed. (28:44): And so I think what ends up happening is I think a lot of black people in this space and black women in this space. And then the same could be said in other places. I think we've had to be creative. I had to be creative to grow my business. And so building a subscription business, I was like, oh, I'm going to build a subscription business was I wanted to get paid on time. I didn't want to chase clients. I wanted to figure out how I can grow in my career post a market crash in oh eight. And so for me, it was a necessity that brought out how I got here. And I think a lot of times we're being overlooked when we actually have real solutions that can move needles that aren't just fluff in a great for show. Or then what also happens is you have people who are maybe newer in your space that get notoriety and you're like, you want to have the conversations, but you also want to not be forgotten in the conversation, right? I think that happens a lot. And it's frustrating and it's irritating. And you see whether it's in the funding, whether it's in conferences, whether it's in just like it looks like, like we said, it's mainly white men that are speaking on a particular topic do better. I don't care what this (29:59): Administration is saying, do better find more Jared Correia (30:02): People. I'll put a pin in that. We can talk about that, Kim Bennett (30:06): Get more perspectives. Because I've been pushing subscriptions and flat fees for a long time. And in fact, I did it for many years when people told me it wouldn't work, and they kept on being naysayers, but I kept on still doing it. If you want to have the gumption and the grit and all that to be a good founder, well find the people that had to go through that. A lot of times it's not going to look like the people that are always being lifted up in an industry that's kind of, I can go on and on days about it and it gets frustrating, but also then it becomes the battery in my back to be like, well, you know what? I'm going to prove you wrong. But you don't always want to have to operate that way. You want to be able to be like, yes, this works. Let me show you. Give me some funding. So yeah, all those things. Jared Correia (30:51): I mean, my big joke is when people are asking me to do panels, I'm like, oh, I'll bring some diversity. I'm a middle-aged white man as opposed to an elderly white man. Here I am. So it sounds like some of this is access to funding, but it sounds like some of this is platforming and visibility more than anything else. So if you're a legal organization, is this just about finding people? How would you go about trying to provide more platforms for founders from different backgrounds? Kim Bennett (31:27): I do personally, I try to lift people up as I grow and try to bring people along, try to push back when I see a panel that doesn't look very diverse and like, Hey, what's happening? If you're running a summit, if you're running a conference, Jared Correia (31:41): You Kim Bennett (31:42): Have to ask Jared Correia (31:42): Yourself. So it's okay to say something is what Kim Bennett (31:44): You're saying? Yeah, say something. You have to say something, right? Otherwise, I mean, I was on the board of conferences and we said something and it had to keep on saying things. It had to keep pushing back and had to push that needle because, well, you don't think it's happening, but if your default is to go to your friends and your friends all look like you, then you're not going to bring different perspectives no matter what that is. And even if you meaning have the best meaning. So I think saying something, bringing other people with you for all diverse founders, apply to the things because you do get, it feels like it's a lot of work to continue to apply to get turned down, but apply, put yourself in the game because it is what it is. We can't change everything. But I do think for those that have the access or the platform is to platform more people, push yourself. There are organizations, go to the National Bar Association, whole entire black bar. You can find people, you can go to see where there are diverse founders doing different types of tech and legal and beyond to support what we're all doing. Jared Correia (32:57): And this is a larger national issue too. Kim Bennett (33:00): It's a tech issue too. It's not just legal tech. Jared Correia (33:03): Well, it's definitely a tech issue for sure. And then we've also got this national environment now where, I mean everyone, I think everyone probably knows my disdain for Trump, who's like the shipper of all shippers, just a terrible human being on every level. And now he surrounded himself with hateful assholes in administration version 2.0. So one of my big problems is now you get these dickheads who feel like they can say whatever they want to anybody at any time, anti-women, anti minority. And this is becoming more and more acceptable. I see it. My kids in school, some of the shit kids say to each other in the last few months is nuts. So that's a huge problem. Do you want to say anything about that? I think people probably know my feelings Kim Bennett (33:48): About this. Yeah, I mean, I co-signed filled the same way. I think this is the sad part is I remember being in law school thinking, oh wow, you jerk that came to our Halloween party in blackface. You're going to be a lawyer. And these are the people who are now probably at somewhere in this administration, the Supreme Corps. Well, hello and doing, supporting and drafting these things. And so I will say growing up you hoped that things would get better. I would say back when Obama ran, I saw it shifting, (34:24): Particularly with people that I was like, really? And now I think we're in a space where we have to get out of this idea that we can't talk politics. That's uncomfortable conversation. Yeah, I feel good dinner table conversation. We need to be comfortable with having disagreements on topics, but actually be based in fact. And so we're in this weird, non, non-factual lie kind of situation where we have an administration that keeps on pushing really horrible, unconstitutional workarounds because they're not policy, I guess. And we have a lot of unfortunate people in our industry that are supporting the crap. And I really feel like, how can you be the top lawyer in this country and be stating things that are blatantly unconstitutional? And the bar, particularly the Florida party, needs to get their shit together to call her on account. Because if any of us did what she did to a court, to any of that, we would have a hard time standing up and keeping our license. (35:31): And so I think right now it's sad because yeah, you're seeing it with kids. You're seeing people being emboldened to be hateful versus say, how do we figure out how our diversity makes us better, how our different ways of thinking makes us better? And I'm very vocal, I think at this point. It doesn't change who I am. I'm always going to be who I am. I get people say, well, you're raising money or you have a tech app. What happens if someone doesn't want to fund you? You're like, well, do I want to raise this funding me? I mean, that feels like you probably didn't like me anyway, right? And if probably you are guided by money and we do what we're supposed to do, your lack of value self is still going to probably invest. So I think for me, that we have to be in a place where we're going to, particularly as legal professionals, we are trained in this shit. (36:23): We need to speak up. And if we're afraid to speak up, the people that aren't trained, of course, they're going to be afraid and it just trickles down to the kids and the kids are just pouting. What unfortunately, some ridiculous, racist, homophobic, sexist, transphobic, individual in their life is saying. And if we don't protect people at the child and beyond ages, if we don't protect people who are people, then what the hell do we have to do here? I'll say, just to wrap, the due process conversation is driving me nuts when people are like, should we all have due process? Should we not? I'm like, damn, our basic education needs Jared Correia (37:03): To improve. Totally work for 250 years, whatever Kim Bennett (37:05): I know, but it, it's just like we're in this place where we need better civics education. We need at elementary, middle, junior high school, we need to do better showing up in the adults. That lack common sense today. So Jared Correia (37:22): You got a lot of dumb motherfuckers out there who have no ability to think critically, Kim Bennett (37:26): None Jared Correia (37:26): And just lie upon, lie upon lie. One thing I do want to say is I thought that was very well said. The other piece of this is I would like to see some of these boards of our overseers start to get more aggressive about penalizing the attorneys who are working for the Trump administration. Kim Bennett (37:43): Agree. I agree. Jared Correia (37:43): They are full of shit and they're breaking tons of ethics rules and no one's calling them out on Kim Bennett (37:48): It. And if they're not, you cannot hold any other lawyer to any other ethics rule. I'm sorry. If you're allowed to break the constitution, if you're allowed to just bypass, if you are allowed to call for judges to be arrested and just do things, how are you then going to challenge a lawyer that Oopsie did a little something on the side. What's the line here? Right. I agree. I think, and I've said it, I actually have said it. Where are the bar associations? Where are you? Why are you quiet? It's unacceptable, right? Jared Correia (38:22): Too much. Too much silence on this. The social contract is falling apart, and this is not even a party based issue at this point. This is like fascism versus non fascism. I'll be on the non fascism team. Kim Bennett (38:34): Thank Jared Correia (38:34): You very much. Kim Bennett (38:35): Hello. You could be a non fascist conservative, a non fascist Democrat, the two non fascist, independent, non fascist green party. Like, hello, let's all come together and agree that fascism doesn't work. Every time we get tagged in the first, we're on a tangent, but this first Trump administration, I was traveling and every time I would check into a hotel, they're like, is this real? Is this going to happen? I'm like, unfortunately it's real. And unfortunately, very well might happen. Jared Correia (39:06): Fascism doesn't work once again for the 50th time. So we take a quick break, do something a little fun. Sure. Alright, let's do that. And we'll be back with our last segment, everybody. Welcome to the counter program, everybody. Welcome back. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Kim, you've got a little preview of this, but we have a new recurring segment called The Wheel of Justice that I'll turn to Now, this is based on the wheel of drinks at Bakowski Tavern in Boston where you spin the wheel and you buy whatever drink the wheel dictates because the wheel is wise as well as just so Kim, we're literally going to spin a wheel and I'm asking you questions based on what comes up. Kim Bennett (40:04): Okay. Jared Correia (40:05): Oh, and by the way, this is the Wheel of Justice Summer edition. Summer edition. So it's summer questions. Kim Bennett (40:13): I'm like looking to see Uhoh. Okay, here we go. Jared Correia (40:16): Evan, hit it. Please. Spin the wheel of justice. Yeah. Alright. The wheel is spinning. The wheel is spinning. And we have Oh, beach bums. Beach bums is the first topic. Oh, this is a good one, Kim. Multiple choice. What's more annoying at the beach? A young lady in a tiny thong or an old man in a tiny thong. I know my answer. This could be a French beach or a beach base in the United States. Kim Bennett (40:54): Do I have to choose one or can I be like neither? Jared Correia (40:57): You can choose neither. You could choose both. I am anti old man in a thong. Let me just come out and say that. Kim Bennett (41:03): Yeah, I mean, I feel like if you feel comfortable, more power to you because you were able to get to that age in life that you should be able to do what the hell you want. I will just say random. My grandpa is 99, so Oh, really? Pray for him. Yeah, he's He's really good. He has very coherent and everything, although now he's having some health issues, but Jared Correia (41:27): 99, Kim Bennett (41:27): He's Jamaican. He likes Ray and nephews and one of my aunts was like, no, don't let him drink. And I'm like, he's 99. Let him out the fucking drink. If he wants a drink, let him drink his ray and nephews. So I'm four. Do what you need, Jared Correia (41:42): Drink, throw that thong on whatever you need Kim Bennett (41:45): To do. That's right. That's right. Live your best life. Jared Correia (41:49): Sun's out. Buns out. Alright. Kim Bennett (41:51): That's right. Jared Correia (41:53): Suns out. Let's the wheel. Let's see what else we got here on the wheel. That might've been the raciest question we had. So let's see what we got this time around. I got some good ones on here. Cone heads is our next topic. Kim, this one's very simple. Kim Bennett (42:08): Okay. Jared Correia (42:08): Summertime fucking hot out there. What is your favorite ice cream flavor type Kim Bennett (42:18): Ice cream. My favorite ice cream flavor is right now, I like Jenny's, but what is it called? Jared Correia (42:30): I feel like the right now is the right part of this because ice cream is Kim Bennett (42:33): Delicious. You can have different flavors at any point time. Yeah, right. So right now it would be some kind of a birthday cakey thing, but I don't think it's really what it's called. It's some type of crunchy thing that's really good. It's like a vanilla with a little cake in it. Also with a side of a cookie dough, like a mixture. I like to have two different types Jared Correia (42:54): Together. Oh, you mix two ice creams together? Yeah, because it's Kim Bennett (42:56): Great. Yeah. Well you have one scoop and the other scoop and it's inside of a waffle. Jared Correia (43:01): I like that. Kim Bennett (43:01): Yeah, it's just, yeah, I should know that flavor. Jared Correia (43:04): I don't, I am was in Cooperstown, New York a couple weekends ago and I want to give shout out to Cooper's Barn, this ice cream Kim Bennett (43:13): Place. Cool. Jared Correia (43:14): And they do sauce serve with mix ins in a waffle Now that was my jam they had, so you could get your ice cream and then mix in mix chocolate chips Kim Bennett (43:25): And stuff. Yeah, free sleep. The one out here comes with, they have different flavors. I like that. I like to bring two together. I can never choose. Jared Correia (43:36): I got you. That's fair. Well, yeah, so I think we have a theme here, not opposed to anyone doing whatever they want on the beach. Get whatever ice cream you Kim Bennett (43:44): Want. That's probably my normal way of life. Do you? I'm here to support you. Doing you. Jared Correia (43:50): Alright, good. We're supporting freedom here on the show. Let's spin the wheel again. Let's see what we got on the Wheel of Justice. Summary edition. Kim Bennett (43:56): Freedom over fascism. Jared Correia (43:58): Just saying there's our theme. Alright, so we got picks or it didn't happen. Picks or it didn't happen. Kim Bennett (44:06): Oh no, I'm afraid. Jared Correia (44:09): No, this is not too bad actually. What's the worst summer vacation photo you ever took and why? Kim Bennett (44:14): Oh, the worst summer vacation photo I've took and Jared Correia (44:17): Why? Kim Bennett (44:18): Yeah. Huh? What's the worst? I just came back from vacation. So what would be a terrible picture? I just took, it would probably be me trying to take, this is terrible, worse, but recently I just tried to take a picture and it was like I couldn't actually get it, so it wasn't me. It was the ground. So that's not really bad. You thought you were doing it and it wasn't Jared Correia (44:41): Right. Oh, that's pretty bad actually. Kim Bennett (44:42): Yeah, or it's like that's not too much. Yeah. So what's my worst? I wish I took a picture of someone falling out of something. Like when you were doing, but I was holding on. That Jared Correia (44:52): Was, I feel like that's a, oh, have you ever taken a picture where you've fallen out of something before? Kim Bennett (44:57): No, but I wish I would've Jared Correia (44:59): Taken of someone else. Kim Bennett (45:01): Is that terrible? That's my dream because when they were trying to hold on and then they flew off, I did save someone Jared Correia (45:07): More Kim Bennett (45:07): Time from drowning. He doesn't like that story, but it's true. Jared Correia (45:11): Do you want to share it? Kim Bennett (45:13): No, it was just don't. Jared Correia (45:14): They Kim Bennett (45:14): Couldn't really swim that well and they fell off and I jumped in because I thought it was a lifeguard Jared Correia (45:19): And you saved someone. So that was actually a thing that happened. Kim Bennett (45:23): He would, you're a lifesaver saving though. I would call it saving. Jared Correia (45:28): My favorite thing is going to Disney World and watching the new dads like face plan with their strollers trying to get off the buses. I could literally do that all day long. It's one of the best things ever. Kim Bennett (45:41): That feels Jared Correia (45:41): Great. Hi, let's spin the wheel. Next question. Oh, I think we got rent free. Next question is rent free. Kim, for those folks out there planning vacations, where do you prefer to stay on a summer vacation? Airbnb, hotel Resort, Kim Bennett (46:05): Airbnb, you is a hell no. I'm a germaphobe, so no, thank you. I just don't think they're cleaned. I like a resort, but I like it to be really nice. So if I probably had to choose, it'd be a hotel that had access to things I could do off hotel grounds, but if it's resort, it should be nice with a great beach. So resort a hotel. Hell no to Airbnb because it's just not clean enough I don't think. Jared Correia (46:35): Yeah, I'm not an Airbnb person myself. I think the whole reason going on vacation is so that other people can take care of your shit. Yeah, I don't want to do all the crap, which is, yeah, I'm very much on your wavelength there. Kim Bennett (46:48): I'm not a jerk when I go places. I definitely like to leave it tidy when I'm gone, but I'm not trying to do all the Airbnb rules. No. Plus that's a whole kills all types of industries, so nah, Jared Correia (47:01): I'm right there with you. Kim, I had a real pleasure chatting today. Thank you for coming on the show. We've got more wheel of justice questions if you come back and we'll talk soon, I'm sure. Kim Bennett (47:13): Thank you for having me. Jared Correia (47:14): Thanks to our latest guest, that was Kim Bennett of Fidu. To learn more about fidu, visit fidu legal.com. Lemme spell that for you. It's a made up word. FIDU legal.com. FIDU legal.com. Fidu legal.com now, because I'll always be a nineties kid just bumping hat away in my 1980 Mazda 6 2 6 with the idol kicked up to 11, whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every podcast episode that I record where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. This week's playlist is a smattering of old timing music, so turn up the Victrola and is sponsored by Dapper Dance Pomade. It's not, fuck God Damnit. I'm just kidding. By the way, dapper Dan is not real, not even an actual company, and it hasn't sponsored shit. Join us next time when I see if I can get up to the second knuckle.