Latest / The Growth Class with Phil Masiello / Scaling Creative Businesses: Building a Tattoo Brand That Lasts with Clay Montgomery

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Scaling Creative Businesses: Building a Tattoo Brand That Lasts with Clay Montgomery · The Growth Class with Phil Masiello

• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Growth Class.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: And today we're diving into scaling in non-traditional markets.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: How do you take a highly localized creative business and scale it across 17 different footprint locations in multiple states without destroying quality or culture?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: And our guest today, stop that exact puzzle, and you're going to be surprised.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's Clay Montgomery, is the founder of Atomic Tattoos, a leader in the alliance of professional tattooists, founder who turned a single street shop concept into an enterprise level brand.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Clay, welcome to the show.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to get into this because to me, when we first started, I thought, how can somebody have a chain of tattoo parlors?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: But again, you you do.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, thanks for having me.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to be here.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um looking forward to this.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um for we were not the first tattoo shop to have multiple locations, uh, but I think we are probably the first to do it on the scale that we've done it.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um there has been multi-location business models like this in various cities around the country in the past, but we've we've expanded into multiple states and multiple distinct metro markets.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I I hear you on that.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen uh some multi-store tattoo shops.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I've seen regional multi-store tattoo shops, somebody that stays like in the Washington, D.C.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: market or the New York metropolitan market, um, Los Angeles.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: But first of all, not not all of them survive.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: They all sort of expand and contract when when they get to a certain point, uh, they wind up you know going back to either one or two stores, shops.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I've really not seen anybody who can go from Florida uh to Wisconsin to other areas.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's pretty uh it's pretty cool, especially trying to build a brand in tattoo around tattoos.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that uh that's the thing that I think intrigued me the most is how can you build that brand around tattoo shops.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I we we did it by building a culture in our stores.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um we wanted to have the kind of place that we would want to work at if we were looking for a job.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we were we were very conscientious about the environment um that we provided for the for the staff and for the consumers.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And when we first started 25 years ago, um tattooing was still kind of on the edge of acceptable society.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that was one of the things that attracted me to it in the first place.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I think we kind of intuitively knew that it was going to evolve into a bigger thing than it was at that time.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, obviously we didn't know that the TV shows and the internet would have the impact on it that it has.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And um we've been able to kind of pivot with these new new forces that have um you know had an influence on tattooing and and the market in general.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we we we really focused on the culture in in the stores, and that's really what was allowed us to grow and and sustain you know our business for for 25 years now.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: But how do you find people to to to work in those stores?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's sort of uh an art, and at the same time, um it's a service, right?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's you you've got these tattoo artists, and how do you find them to staff a store and you know, do they want to work for, let's just say, do they want to work for the man?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Or you know what I mean?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy for somebody to to want to work for like a tattoo shop that's you know cool and hip downtown and they want to be there.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: But when you start getting multiple stores, do they look at you different and say, oh no, man, that's just the man.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: We we've been called corporate and all this other stuff.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it, you know, um I'm I'm a tattoo artist myself.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Before that, I was a welder.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I'm I'm not college educated.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: My my my wife has a degree in like history, but you know, we just built the business on, you know, integrity and dedication.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and we had to really ignore the critics because if we listened to them, you know, we'd we'd probably be as broke and miserable as they are.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we just, you know, kind of just ignored it and did what we thought was the right thing to do.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we attracted the people that belong with us, you know.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if somebody comes and works with us and they don't fit in, they don't last long.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not a big deal, you know.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: At this point, we're like, hey, you know, it's not for everybody.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: The way we do things is the way we do things, and we're not changing it.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: So the people that work for us, we have a a really good retention rate, which is unusual in tattooing.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it it could be the stability, it could be the benefits, it could be the culture.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's any number of things that influence that.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we uh we definitely have been called, you know, a lot of bad names from people in the industry, especially people that don't know what we're doing.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we just keep keep doing what we're doing.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And after 25 years, people, a lot of people have just been like, well, they're still around, they must be okay.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I used to not like you, but now that I've met you and kind of see what you're doing, it's okay.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: And for whatever reason, in tattooing, once you've made it as long as we have, people just accept you.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we've we've moved into that acceptance.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, they're not as resistant to us anymore as they used to be.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, it's it's fine.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's um because it's not I I I looked at it and I thought to myself, well, is it like haircutting where you can take a concept such as Floyd's barbershop and and roll it out, franchise it, do whatever.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: You have this look, you make it rock and rollish, young kids want to go there to get their hair cut because they're always playing good music, you know.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um or is it more uh do you have to like how I guess my my when I was looking at it, I'm thinking, you know, how do you scale something like that without losing the soul?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that tattoo shops have a certain um I don't know, a certain expectation of what it's gonna be like in there.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's kinda, you know, uh uh a little edgy and maybe the music is very uh you know relevant and I don't know.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Just the ones that I've that I've been into.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, that I think that's a fair assessment.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think we were able to maintain you know authenticity because that's who we are.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we just put ourselves into this and um we we we just encourage you know that that kind of experience for everybody.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's kind of a mix too.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like we had these processes and systems that allowed us to scale, but at the same time, we've given the the artists enough freedom to you know make art and be creative and that kind of thing.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a it's a tricky balance.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's an art element to tattooing.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: There is a technical aspect of of applying the tattoo, there's a sales aspect to it.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we we we don't neglect any of those aspects, I think.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and um that's been one of the keys to our success.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um we we we are very supportive of the people that work for us.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, we we care about them on a pretty personal level.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's been another thing.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that that may have hindered our growth to some degree because at some point, you know, you you can't deal with more than a certain number of people.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we maybe could have gotten bigger if we were a little more uh detached, I guess.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, we're we're happy with with the way things function right now.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's you know, I think it's good.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think that it's you know, it's sort of to get to 17 locations, and I don't care, you know, how how uh strong the revenue is, how weak the revenue is, it doesn't matter.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the ability to get 17 locations, staff them with the right people, have them be profitable and and have the customer uh enjoy it is a testament to something, right?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's it says because I don't think that people you know going for tattoos want it to be sort of this you know, sterile corporate environment, I guess you know uh they don't want it to be some sort of a cookie cutter thing.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think the you you're 100% right, like the systems are important, the processes are important, but the rest of it it has to be uh, I guess, um a reflection of the art and the artist that's happening in within that the four walls.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: We I think that it might be counterintuitive, but the systems and processes that we have to to make the business function allows the artist to focus on making the art.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have to worry about any other aspect of the business because we've done all the groundwork and you know, built the foundation for that for them.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, even even the people that we partner with, we handle a lot of the back office stuff, you know, bill pay, lease negotiation, insurance, stuff like that.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that our partners can, you know, if they want a tattoo, they can tattoo.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: If they want to run the store, they can run the store.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's that's you know, been, I think, one of the keys to our success.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think that's really smart because, and I'll tell you why.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I spoke to a person who um does franchising, and he was he he had several concepts that he franchised that he owned.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And he he one of them was dog grooming.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And he said it's so difficult to be able to franchise this because what happens is, especially mobile dog grooming or even stationary dog grooming, said dog groomers think, okay, I want to be in business for myself.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm in business for myself, all I have to do is I'll be happy, I'll groom dogs all day.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: But the flaw in the model is that once they become a franchisee, they have to run the business.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: They have to be responsible for accounting and marketing and operations and all those things.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: So then they become miserable with it because all they really want to do is groom dogs.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And this is sort of similar.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: People who want to do tattoos, they want to be the creative force to drive that tattoo.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you've taken that back end and said, you don't have to worry about any of that.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: You just we just need you to take care of customers with their needs, be the artist that you are.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and it something similar, like another person that I spoke to who has a concept for doing men's wedding bands, and he created the technology, the everything about it for the back end, and all the artist has to do on a regional level is create the ring that the person coming in wants.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't have to deal with buying the gold or buying the silver or the platinum or any of that stuff, doesn't have to worry about the supply chain, doesn't have to worry about the payment systems, just has to do what they're good at.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that that's a pretty smart way of going about it.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it it works for us.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: We have a whole, you know, back end logistics for supplies and everything else set up.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we we have all of our systems standardized and you know, all the stores have their own kind of vibe and feeling and personality, but the systems that run it are all the same.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So any any artist at one of my stores can go to another store and and the the process is the same for customer intake, checking out, you know, all these things, but the the the store aesthetically might be different and the team has got a different vibe.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we've we've been able to keep that kind of unique experience and and allow the artist to continue to enjoy tattooing, you know, if that's what they choose to do.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I I think that that's an important component because it becomes almost a relationship, right?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: You you're you're gonna go to the person to do your tattoo that you trust and that you like and that you've gone to several times and you want to recommend them when somebody else is, hey, uh, you know, I want to get a tattoo, go to go to see Bob, you know, whatever.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because it you build a long-term relationship because I I don't know anybody who's got tattoos that only had one.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they may start with one, but they wind up with multiples.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, and you know, at 25 years we have repeat business at this point where it's like um people are bringing their children in that you know, I got tattooed here, I'm gonna bring my kid in and get tattooed, and they're gonna get if I ever brought a kid in for a tattoo, my wife would punch me in the head.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it's no, it's it's funny.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I mean, uh what so what's the what's the future hold for you?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna continue to try and roll out stores strategically or are do you think that you're just happy with where you are?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think I would expand if the opportunity presented itself and you know, the right person came along that that wanted to expand with me.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I feel like I'm at the point in in my life and my career that I'm like, you know, I I I don't I'm not actively looking to expand, but you know, if the opportunity presents itself and it makes sense, I can do it.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've had shop owners reach out to me and try to sell me their store.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, situations like that can turn into an opportunity, obviously.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: But um I'm I'm I'm pretty frugal about you know uh what people, especially in the tattoo business, what people think their business is worth.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's a usually emotional decision for them.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like that in any business.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's in any business.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: The asset list, and we'll start there, you know?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a it's a it's like that in any business.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's yeah, it becomes emotional.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of tattoo shop owners don't really own a business.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: They own a job.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when they try to sell it, they don't understand that without them it's really not worth much, you know, and that's that's sad.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a um it's a difficult thing to come to terms with when you pour your life into something and it's just a job.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's unless you own the building and the real estate, it's really uh it's really all about you.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've seen it with you know guys that have barber shops that they've they've worked in for that they've built for 20 years and then they're ready to retire and you know there's nobody to take it over and and uh they think they can sell it for a million dollars, and you go, dude, you can't.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna happen.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I will tell you this though.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, go ahead.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh my daughter ha is an employee of the company, and her and her husband, who's a tattoo artist, are are you know preparing to take the next generation?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I'll probably just move into more of an advisor role.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if they want to grow some more, they're able to.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And if they want to just maintain, they can do that too.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's you know, we're kind of at that point now.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I I have um I have a question for you.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: So um have you thought about uh creating brands of products around your company Yeah, um I'm not a retail expert, so that's you know, I'd have to really kind of learn a lot about that or maybe hire somebody to help me with that.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we have a little bit of branded merchandise, you know, like clothing and stuff like that.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it it it's mostly internal, you know, the the staff likes it and a few of our customers, but we're not a big, you know, retail.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's not really our focus.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I I think it could be good, you know.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we we we have the resources to produce some unique stuff, um, but on a on a scale that, you know, would be profitable and worth it.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know much about doing that.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: So um you know.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm talking more about the um you know, tools and ink.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'll and I'll tell you why.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: I read uh I I read a couple of articles lately uh in in our neighborhood where in our area where uh a couple of tattoo shops got um in trouble for using ink that was not tattooing.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um had some real problems.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought to myself, you know, there's no like branded certified tattoo ink.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is real tattoo ink, it's certified, it's branded, it's not carcinogenic, it's you know, whatever it is, right?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and I, you know, and I equate it to I have a friend who uh is a famous uh colorist, uh hair colorist in uh in LA.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And hair color, when you when women you know color their hair, there's a it it gets processed and and you have to be able to have products that fix that hair.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because you could the way he explains it to me is you think about when you think about a road, and when you color that hair with all the processing, it's like you put a bunch of uh potholes in that hair, in that road.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And what you you need something to put on there to almost fill those potholes.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so he created products around it.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: And because he know he knows he doesn't want to have more than one shop, he just can't deal with it.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: But he created processes, uh products and you know, sells them all around the world, sells them all around the country.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it makes it easy to to almost scale because now all of a sudden, you know, well, we become the brand within the the industry, you know.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Everything we have is considered, you know, whatever.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then when people that are going for tattoos know, okay, well, they're using, you know, they're using, you know, clay zinc, you know, whatever it is.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, that that was more.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just because I'm a I'm a I'm a product guy and I think about branding and I think about products and I think about e-commerce all the time.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just thought, I wonder if that's possible.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I was wondering if you're um well there's there's currently some regulations going on with uh tattoo pigment coming from the government.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: So um once that kind of happens and gets gets implemented, then it it would that would be the time to explore that.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: But trying to launch a pigment line right now with with the um the impending regulations that you know I don't fully understand yet would would be a little bit difficult.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm always wary of government regulations in any industry because you know they they as good intended as they might be, there's always some uh you know, consequences of those regulations.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And no question about it.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, just like it's just like anything, you know, there can be regulations like with beauty for for example, or skincare, there's regulations out there.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: But if you followed them, you'd be making garbage.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you gotta go one step above to say, this is the this is great stuff, and here's why.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you sort of have to understand what the consumer wants.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: What the consumer wants, I would imagine, again, I don't know your industry, but I would imagine what the consumer wants is is safety and colors that don't fade fast and you know, things like that.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you create that, forget about the, you know, whatever the regulations are, it doesn't make a difference because they're never going to be good enough to say all that.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's usually somebody, it's usually some big money company that's pushing something that they want, right?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh but it what made me think about it was that there's all these stories about, you know, bad uh uh I guess pigments that go into people's skin that shouldn't be there.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I was thinking, boy, you know, I wonder if if Clay could could come up with that.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you don't have to produce it yourself.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: You get somebody to produce it, but you put your brand on it, you've got 17 stores that you can sell it in and then you know, you can sell it across the country.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, just a thought.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Just just the kind of kind of person I am.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah, clothing and and things like that, that's always sort of the first place people go.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh t shirts and and all that.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think there's you know, when you start looking at tools and people who want to get into it I I had somebody on who makes looms and sells them around the world.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Looms.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, and and she it's she's been doing it for 20 years and it's amazing.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I thought, oh my god, small personal looms all the way up to big looms.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: They manufacture them in Wisconsin, actually.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Where you have stores.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's funny.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess something's going on in Wisconsin with people.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: How do you manage that?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: How do you manage Florida and Wisconsin?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's quite a leap.
• 22:56
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: We have the company divided up into regions, and each um region has a managing partner, and you know, they're the kind of key person in that area, and they have a vested interest in the business.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, it the the business success equates to their success, and you know, they're in the stores handling the operational aspect of it.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And all the stuff that we can do remotely, we we do, you know, um, all the back office stuff.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's just, you know, easy for them to all they have to do is just show up, tattoo, maybe settle a dispute between the staff, um, you know, handle a complaint from a customer, that kind of thing.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, normal operational management type stuff.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, you know, we we try to standardize everything as much as possible.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: How do you here's something that I just thought about, and the reason I'll tell you why I thought about it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: But how do you how do you know if a if a tattoo artist is qualified to be in in one of your locations?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, how you know, how do you know that they're just not somebody who does bad, like gives bad haircuts, so to speak, you know?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so most artists have a portfolio that you can look at, you know, an example of their work.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um a lot of times it's online.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: So before I even talk to somebody, I can just go on their website or Instagram or whatever and see the kind of work that they do.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um the tattoo industry, as big as it is, is still kind of small.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can make a phone call and say, hey, have you ever worked with this person?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know this person?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then you, you know, you kind of vet them like that.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I'm more apt to hire somebody that's less experienced and maybe not as refined as an artist that has a really good attitude.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'd like to um help them get better at tattooing if I can, if they have the right attitude, if their you know, disposition fits in with our culture, if um they they are good at sales and interacting with people, you know.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's that's the the hardest component in in hiring people is is finding people that understand that it's a service that you're providing to consumers and and that's you know as good as a tattoo can be, if you're if you mistreat somebody, they're they're not gonna like it.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so yeah, that's that's our focus.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can I can make I can make a nice person into a good tattooer.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's harder to make a good tattooer into a nice person.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's the that's the truth.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's a guy with a uh YouTube channel.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: I forget his I forget his name, but he's a tattoo uh he I guess he owns a tattoo shop somewhere.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he always does these videos of people's outrageous requests for tattoos, some of which uh can't be it just can't be done.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and uh I don't know if you've seen it.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we we spend a lot of time on uh on social media just because of the work we do, but uh it was cracking me up because you and I were talking about it last week and I looked at his at his channel and I was thinking, man, that's just that's gotta be rough with people who come in with these designs that they drew on a on a piece of paper and said, Hey, can you do this?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: People can just say any idea into AI and get some rendering of it.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: And AI is not generally set up to make tattoo-ready designs, and they'll bring us stuff that's just absolutely untattooable.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the concept might be good, even the layout, you know, that there's aspects of it that are like usable, but we'll we'll just have to say, hey, look, we need to turn this into something that's tattooable because the medium has its its restrictions.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: And um some people are okay with that, and some people are like, well, just make it like this.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, that's not possible.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like there's the the laws of physics apply to tattoos as well.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're we're limited.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's unfortunate that a lot of artists now, um, tattoo artists are are really anti-AI.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're resentful uh of it and stuff, and um, it's not going away.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, more and more people are gonna adopt it.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that there's a generation under 40 that reject AI in a lot of ways.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I happen to agree with them.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: I look, I'm an AI advocate.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: We've been using AI in our business for about seven years, agentic for about three years, but um we use it in a different way, right?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: We we we're an advertising, primarily an advertising and marketing e-commerce agency, but you know, we don't use AI to create the content.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: We don't do videos, we don't do images with it.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: We may come up with ideas for videos and ideas for images, but we don't do it because we work with consumer products.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're talking to the consumer, you're trying to be authentic.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: You can't say I'm authentic when you're giving them AI slot.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it just doesn't work.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: We use AI for analysis of advertising results.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: We use AI for um find for strategy, we use AI for all kinds of different things.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's just when it's consumer-facing, we don't.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and and again, uh primarily because we deal in the personal care, the beauty, food space, uh, some some technology.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: But um, does it work in real estate?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably it works in real estate better.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Works in industrial, probably you could get away with it.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think when it comes to uh my daughter is an artist uh and um she hates AI.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And she thinks that it's just it's terrible what people are doing with it, trying to claim that it's art and it's not art because you didn't really do it.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so there's this generation under 40 that that despises it, and I can understand why.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I could I could see because this this person's channel that I was talking about, he he points that out a lot.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: People come in with these outrageous AI-generated designs, like you said, that are just impossible to do, and people get annoyed about it, and he's trying to show how you know you can't do it.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I could see that as being an obstacle.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: It it is what it is.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, artists that are confident in their abilities, um, they don't complain about it.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: They just go, okay, yeah.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I see, I see where you're going with this.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Let me let me turn it into a tattoo for you.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, they're they're not resentful of it.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but yeah, consumer facing for for tattooers, if you if I were to post something that's AI, like I would get roasted, you know.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's happened.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I did it, I did it inadvertently, you know.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was um offering some uh business consulting to to tattoo shop owners, like, hey, if if you're struggling with with um you know business processes or something like that, I'm I'm I want to help you.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I made a little infographic with AI, and man, I got cooked, you know, and I I left it up and I I responded to people and I didn't like quickly remove it, but then I made a a hand-drawn, you know, crude version of it, like really like crude, and and replaced it with that.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And people like it was kind of endearing, you know.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was like, that's gonna, I think I'm just gonna kind of go that direction, just make it as simple as possible by hand.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I make content uh almost every day for you know for what I do and my coaching business and things like that.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and I don't I don't use AI, I just do it.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um and I make mistakes, but I leave the mistakes in because then people know that it's real and yeah, I don't have nothing to hide.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: If I make a mistake or I fumble over a word, I'm not trying to be perfect.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care about being perfect, you know.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I I get the point across.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: But people know that at least it's really me and not you know some some some AI generated piece.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I may get the idea from from AI.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I do love I I do love what what the possibilities are with AI.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I I don't think it's gonna kill me in the next 10 years, but we'll see.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: So well.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're pretty much uh out of time.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I appreciate you coming on.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, it's uh it was a great conversation.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: I like the business.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: I it got me thinking because I do like I'm you know, we do a lot of traditional types of businesses on the show, and we have when you look back at the history, it's like, you know, normal businesses, e-commerce and beauty and fashion.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I love finding something that's a little bit unusual.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: It gets me thinking about how how a person can expand that business and how you can turn that brand into something bigger.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And is there an opportunity for it?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think you're on the you know, you've done a heck of a job because you're on the it it's it's extremely important.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: You don't scale the brand, you scale the process, you scale with processes and systems.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, but uh I think you got a huge, huge way to go.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think you could make this into something really, really big.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I'm I'm I'm happy with it, but you know, if the opportunity presents itself, we can we can continue to grow.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I appreciate you coming on, and uh we uh we're just about out of time.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Any any last words?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Anybody who's looking for tattoo work in in your markets, where can they go?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have uh do you have you have a website, right?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the website's atomictattoos.com.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we're in the Tampa Bay area, the Orlando market, and uh Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: We have you know various various stores in each of those markets.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, everybody's welcome to come and get a tattoo.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're not, you know, the we're not the entry level, we're not the super exclusive, high-end custom only.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: We're you know, a nice hybrid mix.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we have all different kinds of uh artists and um you know we we just love tattooing and every every aspect of it.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: All right, man.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I appreciate you coming on, and uh, we will see everybody with the next show.