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Let's Get It On: Charging Your True Worth, PITA Clients, & Imposter Syndrome with Vanessa Ugatti · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I'm your host, Jared Correia. I'm the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For the monologue, we're diving deep into the life and career of one of my favorite singers of all time, the legendary and iconic Marvin Gaye. In the interview, it's Vanessa Ugatti, who is a legal pricing expert and the purveyor of the true worth methodology in the counter program. It's our newly retitled segment, The Internet Pricing Cavalcade of Fun and Danger. But first, let's get it on. (00:00:44): Just a note for listeners before we begin our monologue segment, this episode contains frank discussion of physical and sexual abuse and trauma and self-harm, which may be triggering for some. Listener discretion is advised. This podcast is presented for informational purposes only and does not substitute for professional mental health care or therapy. If you or someone you know has been or is being affected by physical or sexual abuse or mental health distress, please reach out for support. We're going to take a break from our regular music discussion centered around my picks for so-called perfect albums as I want to dive into another artist profile. We've done this once before and I'll do it every now and then from here on out when we first profiled Harry Chapin, a popular singer songwriter with an intense focus on social justice issues. Now, I didn't plan it this way, but this time we're going to talk about an artist who took one of the most famous social justice stances in popular music history. (00:01:49): Marvin Gaye is most often spoken of in terms of his relationship to Motown Records and his prominence is a soul singing sensation throughout the '60s, '70s, and into the early 1980s. But really, he is just one of the best singers of all time. Full stop. His musical career also featured an amazing number of twists and turns, genre hopping. When you consider that his career in popular music only lasted a shade over two decades, the amount and variety of the work he did is kind of staggering. That's why I've decided that I need to break this discussion up into parts to get after all of the different shades that Marvin Gaye represented. Thus, part one, the jazz singer. Marvin Gaye was a massively accomplished singer songwriter, which we'll definitely get into. But I think the first thing most people notice is the voice. He has one of the best, if not the best singing voices in the history of music. (00:02:48): It is like butter melting into a warm pan. Marvin Gaye has this tremendous quality when he sings and expressing deep emotion while also offering some recognizable restraint. His range was extensive, but he never overplayed it. He never seemed to overdo anything. In fact, he was very chill and he always remained as cool as the other side of the pillow. Neither was any of what he did technology aided. Marvin Gaye didn't need no fucking auto tune. If you want to get a sense of how great a singer he is, well, you can just listen to literally any of his songs of course, but definitely check out his isolated vocals from I Heard It Through the Grapevine, which you can find kicking around on the internet. They're just functionally perfect. Growing up as a child interested in music in the 1940s and early 1950s, it was probably no surprise that Marvin Gaye would have gravitated toward great jazz singers. (00:03:45): Gay's idol was Nat King Cole, the celebrated jazz pianist turned vocalist who is most well known now probably for his rendition of Unforgettable, which his daughter Natalie recorded a posthumous duet of with her late father. After spending a short period of time recording as a member of a couple of different groups, the Marquees, Harvey and the Moonglows, yes, before Gay and his mates joined, it was just the regular old Moon Glows. Gay embarked on a solo career by joining up with a Tamla Records, a subsidiary of Motown. Gay's career during the 1960s represented a push-pull mechanic between a few different versions of himself before he took on an entirely different direction in the early 1970s. The Marvin Gaye that Marvin Gaye seemed to want to be in the 1960s was a jazz singer, like his idol. He effectively wanted to be the new Nat King Cole, and his early solo records sort of flipped back and forth between recordings of jazz standards and R&B infused pop recordings. (00:04:50): Sometimes that's happening from record to record. Sometimes it's happening within individual records. This makes for sort of a schizophrenic early catalog. And the logic behind the picking of sides ends up being pretty obvious. Marvin Gaye wanted to explore the jazz singer version of himself and Motown wanted the hit songs which were more profitable. If you look at Gay's discography for the first half of the 1960s, he's essentially splitting his time between trying to be a jazz crewer and being pushed into becoming a soul singer. In 1965, after Cole died, Marvin Gaye released a tribute album on which he covered a wide range of Nat King Cole songs. That album did not sell well and was effectively lost to history. That also essentially ended the career of Marvin Gaye, Jazz Man. Personal confession here. I'm not that into jazz music. It's just not my thing, but I can appreciate the genre and that Marvin Gaye was an effective vocalist in this space. (00:05:52): Now, if Marvin Gaye had been born 20 years earlier, so 1919, the year Nat Cole was born instead of 1939, the year Gay was actually born, he might have been Nat Cole, but by the time Gay was reaching his ascendance, the popular interest in jazz was fading. So if Marvin Gaye wanted that Motown money, he was going to need to move along as well. And he did. But honestly, I think it would have been a travesty for Marvin Gaye to continue to record jazz standards rather than building his own extensive catalog because he would not have reached as many people with his music and his music would have been iterative rather than creative. (00:06:32): I find this hard to not say Marvin Gaye altogether. I'm trying out Marvin or Gay here and there, but I feel like he's one of those people where you just say both the first and last name together like Drake May or Bill Lee or Bob Dole. Anyway, that's my digression. Part two, Hittsville USA. Marvin Gaye is an accomplished songwriter in his own right. Marvin Gaye wrote many of his own songs, especially after 1970. But in the 1960s, his process, well, Motown's process was a bit more collaborative if somewhat undemocratic. He co-wrote and sang songs himself that he built from the ground up, yes, like Stubborn Kind of Fellow, Pride and Joy and Hitchhike. He even co-wrote songs for other artists that became hits, like the Marvelous Beachwood 4-5789 in 1962 and even Dancing in the Street. Yes, Marvin Gaye wrote Dancing in the Street: The Smash Hit for Martha and the Vandellas in 1964. (00:07:33): But as with his recordings of jazz standards, Marvin Gaye could sing the hell out of somebody else's songs too. Most of Marvin Gaye's biggest hits from the 1960s, in fact, emanated from the Motown machine. I heard it through the grapevine in the running for best pop song ever, just in case you only know it from the California Raisins version, was not authored by Gay. That song's composers, Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong also later wrote a number four hit for Gay, Too Busy Thinking About My Baby, which was his biggest solo 1960s hit. Non, I heard it through the Grapevine Division. Ain't That Peculiar is my favorite Marvin Gaye song personally, and it was quite obviously penned by the legendary Smokey Robinson, lead singer of the miracles. I mean, it hits all the notes of a Smokey Robinson song if you listen to it, and that was a top 10 hit in 1965 as well. (00:08:26): How sweet it is to be loved by you became a standard in the American Songbook and Gay's and James Taylor's versions are probably the most well known, but that song was written by the famous songwriting trio of Holland, Docier and Holland. So if you think of Motown as one big class project with the most talented singers and songwriters in the world, overseen by Professor Barry Gordy, who ruthlessly selected and released the songs for the most massive crossover appeal, which is certainly one way to conceive of the record label, it makes sense that Marvin Gaye would draw from various sources as he built his career. But as the 1970s loomed, Marvin Gaye would begin to chafe at his own lack of creative control over his career as he began to drive against the Motown establishment. Part three, it takes two. But it's not like Marvin Gaye wasn't a team player under the right circumstances. (00:09:20): At the same time that he was building his reputation as a solo artist from Motown, he was also releasing multiple duets albums with female singers, not single songs, whole ass collaborative albums, a lot of them. In 1964, he released his first album of duets called Together with Mary Wells, who is mostly now known for her number one single, My Guy. You'll know that song if you start to hum it. This album contained mostly covers and was actually meant to prop up Gay's notoriety given Wells' recent success with The My Guy recording. In 1966, his second record of duets was released with Kim Weston and cleverly titled Take Two. This album was more successful than the last and gave rise to the popular song It Takes Two, which remains a banger. At this point, you'll notice that Marvin Gaye had recorded two duet albums with two different singers, but if he was going to record a third, he would need a new partner. (00:10:24): If you were a female Motown singer in the '60s, teaming up with Marvin Gaye for an album was kind of like rating King Tut's tomb. Both Mary Wells and Kim Weston exited Motown following the release of their albums with Gay. Fortunately for Marvin Gaye at Motown Records, his next duet partner would have a little more staying power. Gay recorded three albums in three years, United, Your All I Need and Easy with Tammy Terrell, who had had success in various duos at that point and was also just beginning to establish herself as a solo artist at Motown. This partnership yielded some all time elite recordings. Gay and Terrell sang together on Ain't No Mountain High Enough. Yeah, you may have heard of that. Ain't Nothing Like The Real Thing, Your Precious Love, and other massively impactful pop recordings. Gay had the longest partnership and the most success with Terrell as a duet partner. (00:11:17): The two produced these collaborative elements right through the 1960s, and Gay only returned to the format once afterwards with Diana Ross for 1973's Diana and Marvin album, which has some really good songs on it, particularly My Mistake Was To Love You. That album had been the work since 1970, but was put on pause probably so that Ross could establish her solo career poster work as the lead singer of the iconic girl group, The Supremes. Marvin Gaye had initially been resistant to record another collaborative album, but though Ross's broad popularity might increase his own fandom. But this all begs the question, if the Terrell Gay partnership was so successful, why did it come to an end? Tammy Terrell was an almost unbelievably talented young woman, but it didn't start out that way. She was actually named Thomas Cena because her parents though she was going to be a boy. (00:12:12): Her father was named Tommy. Come on, Tammy Terrell's parents. Let's put in a modicum of effort on choosing a girl's name. Anyway, she would later change her own name when she got old enough and was similarly grind for her musical success. She actually recorded the first version of the Isley Brothers later hit song, This Old Heart of Mine. Unfortunately, Tammy Terrell's story is one of the saddest and popular music and many people don't even know about it. It's even darker than the Marvin Gayes. When she was just 11 years old, she was raped by three boys when she was walking home from school. And afterwards, she reported experiencing severe migraine headaches, which recurred for the rest of her life. Tammy Terrell was discovered by musician and notable piece of shit, James Brown, who sexually and physically abused her. Terrell was later in a relationship with David Ruffin, the lead singer of The Temptations and also a real piece of shit who proposed her live on stage, even though he was already married with children and had another girlfriend at the time. (00:13:16): You're not going to believe this, but he physically and sexually abused Terrell as well, which served to further exacerbate her migraine headaches. Her partnership with Gay was probably the most stable professional relationship of her life, maybe the most stable relationship of her life. (00:13:35): Now, Marvin Gay didn't really enjoy performing live, in part because he was extremely laid back, but Terrell helped to get him out of his shell when they toured together to support their albums. And Gay seemed to have a real bond with Terrell, but just as Tammy Terrell was starting to achieve widespread success with this collaboration, she collapsed into Marvin Gaye's arms on stage on October 14th, 1967 during a live concert. Soon after, she was diagnosed with a brain tumor and over the next two plus years underwent eight unsuccessful surgeries to try to remove it. Despite her health struggles, she recorded her two final albums with Marvin Gaye. Terrell died on March 16th, 1970. She was only 24 years old. During her last public performance at the Apollo Theater, she and Gay sang a duet together. You're all I need to get by. (00:14:33): Par four. What's going on? At the end of the 1960s, Marvin Gaye was an insanely successful pop singer, the so-called Prince of Soul, who seemingly had everything you could ever want, but he wasn't satisfied with his own career. He was tired of taking orders from Motown CEO, Barry Gordy, and he was distraught over the death of Tammy Terrell as anyone would've been. So Marvin Gaye was about to take his music in a whole new direction. Gay's second album in 1970s, 1971's What's Going On was a monumental achievement and what he's most known for in a career featuring all sorts of switchbacking successes. Gay produced the album and had a hand in writing every song. What's Going On is the most, hey, I've got something to say album ever made. It's sort of a concept protest album where Marvin Gaye tackles all sorts of social ills from police brutality to the environment to racism. (00:15:35): It's maybe the most overtly progressive record album ever made. There's not really a whole hell of a lot of subtlety in what's going on, and that's sort of a good thing. It was probably necessary at the point at which the album came out. And just in case you're interested, all the themes on what's going on represent issues we are still struggling with in society into the present day. Not a goddamn thing has been solved actually, and we've probably backslid. What was going on is still what's going on. Honestly, things would be a whole lot better now if more musicians and celebrities with wide platforms were willing to speak as plainly as Marvin Gaye did back then, though What's Going On almost never happened. Gay conceived of the album after his friend told him about police beating student protestors in Berkeley, but was also affected by his brother's letters home from the Vietnam War. (00:16:34): He got into the recording studio with a new song and the Motown session musicians, the Funk Brothers, as well as some of his own handpicked players. Here's a piece of trivia for you. Professional basketball player Dave Bing and some Detroit Lions football players contribute backing vocals to the album. When Gay was trying to figure out what he wanted to do with his life post Terrell's death, he thought he might play for the Detroit Lions, which the Lions wanted no part of in case he got hurt, but he did meet some of their players. Instead, he decided to fight social injustice with his music after teasing such a streak by covering protest song Abraham, Martin and John a couple years before. But Barry Gordy was initially very much not down with Gay's new approach. He did not want Marvin Gaye to record a protest album, and when he was delivered the title track What's Going On, he purportedly called it the worst thing I've ever heard in my life, okay, potentially speaking for his wallet more so than his musical taste. (00:17:37): But Marvin refused to record any other music from Motown until the song was released. Eventually, the single was released without Gordy's knowledge by another Motown executive and it became a massive hit. When that happened, Gordy was turned around and told Gay to finish the whole album as quickly as possible and essentially also gave him continued creative control over his output for the rest of his career. The plaintive and soulful musical conversation around society's ills does not necessarily sound like fodder for a successful album, but What's Going On remains the most impressive record produced out of the Motown orbit. The album brings a musical realism to the soul genre that hadn't really existed before. Marvin Gaye himself even dropped his clean cut image as he began work on the record, now sporting a beard and his signature, Nick Cap. There's really something for everybody here and very few important cultural problems remain uncovered. (00:18:35): What's Going On could have just as easily been called what the fuck are we doing here? Musically, the vibe is just delete and the chatter contributes to the, hey, we're all just people theme, which the song carries with it. It's the rarest combination of a protest song and a love song. You'll know when you listen to it. What's happening, brother, is about Vietnam War veterans attempting to return to society. The ecology song, Mercy, Mercy Me is about the environment and it's probably the only popular song ever to ask the question, just what the fuck is in the fish we're eating? Flying High in the Friendly Sky is about heroin addiction, really light topics here. Inner City Blues Make Me Want to Holler is probably my favorite track on the album. Honestly, not only does What's Going On feature elite parenthetical usage in the song titles, it's probably a perfect album. (00:19:26): I just wanted to speak more broadly about Marvin Gaye's effect on popular culture at large beyond one record, so that's why I didn't cover it that way. Part five, sexual healing. After changing the world with a record album, what do you do with yourself? Well, Marvin Gaye decided that he wanted to get his fuck on. Right after What's Going On, Marvin Gaye wrote and produced a soundtrack for the 1972 film, Trouble Man. The title track is quite good, but this is some Paul McCartney shit from Marvin Gaye who never reentered the world of the soundtrack, probably because he wanted to get his dick wet. Okay. In 1972 comes Let's Get It On, the horniest album ever committed to wax. The title song, Let's Get It On is a fucking amazing track, just next level. It's about having sex in case you missed that part. You're not going to believe this, but there's a song on this album called Keep Getting It On, a separate and different song, a reprise, round two as it were. (00:20:32): I fucking love it. It's never enough for Wissful Marvin Gaye. Somebody put this motherfucker in horny jail. Other standout tracks include Come Get To This, I'll let you get what this refers to, and You Sure Love to Ball. Yeah, that's the name of the song. I'm not making any of this up. I swear to God, this is all true. Check the track listing. Now, I'm teasing out the sexy bits because I'm immature, but this record is actually dope and probably the first and best entry in the Barry White ain't shit phase of Marvin Gaye's career. The sexual tyrannosaurus version of Marvin Gaye would continue to crop up over the remainder of his career. His final album from 1982 was titled Midnight Love and featured his last great hit single, Sexual Healing. While Marvin Gaye never again hit the high notes of what's going on or let's get it on, his late period albums allowed him to enjoy the creative control he'd earned from Motown before eventually signing with Columbia Records. (00:21:33): 1976's I Want You album and title track has been very influential to both 80s and 90s artists as well as being heavily sampled to this day. His 1978 album, Hear My Dear, which is a double album about his divorce, was a commercial failure, but has since been critically reassessed. 1981's In Our Lifetime was less disco infused in his prior two efforts and many critics saw it as a return to form for Gay before his last album came out. In Marvin Gaye's lifetime, he achieved some staggering musical successes across all kinds of genres and via various modes for measuring success. Part six, trouble man. So if there's one thing that seems clear after the acquisition of so much evidence across the history of pop culture is that fame can really fuck people up and fame fucked Marvin Gaye up pretty good, along with the fact that he had a very difficult upbringing that in part likely factored into his drive to become a successful musician. (00:22:36): So fame fucks people up and also probably attracts fucked up people. Like Michael Jackson, Marvin Gaye had a notoriously difficult relationship with his father, which was mostly on his dad, entirely on his dad who beat him regularly. Marvin Gaye suggested that if not for his mother and his music, he would've killed himself when he was just a boy. Throughout his career, Marvin Gaye had money problems. He moved to Europe in the early '80s living as a tax exile and drug problems, which exacerbated the money problems. He was addicted to cocaine and PCP at various points and personal problems. He was said to have fathered a child with a 15-year-old niece of his wife who could not conceive, and Gay did attempt suicide more than once, including throwing himself from a moving vehicle just days before his death. Finally, without money and with serious drug problems, he ended up moving back in with his parents living at their home in Los Angeles. (00:23:43): At this point, he was significantly depressed. His parents were in regular verbal altercations in the home and Marvin Gaye would intervene on behalf of his mother. One evening after such an intervention, which purportedly included Marvin Gaye physically attacking his father, Gaye's father shot Marvin with a pistol that his son had bought for him, killing him. Marvin Gaye was murdered by his own father the day before his 45th birthday. His brother claims that his last words to him were about their father. "I got what I wanted. I couldn't do it myself, so I had him do it." Par seven, reprise. Marvin Gaye's death was perhaps the most tragic moment in the history of popular music. Although he died in his mid - 40s, Marvin Gaye lived the equivalent of at least six different musical lives, any of which might surpass the single careers that most artists who stay in their lanes can conceive over. (00:24:41): His exquisite vocals were matched by his soulful songwriting, which was matched by his funky instrumentation, which was all supplemented by the tremendous variety of his catalog. Marvin Gaye passed into legend, I think in part because he has achieved that rarefied state of subconscious sublimation into the culture. As I was putting this all together, I was talking to my son about Marvin Gaye and I was like, "Do you know who that is?" And he said he didn't think so, so I played some songs, all of which he recognized and he said, "Huh, I guess I do know Marvin Gaye, don't we all?" If you want to know what's going on, we're about to interview our guest, Vanessa Ugati, the true worth expert. Don't miss a beat. Stay with us. It's all next. Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast, so I'm just going to concentrate really hard until everyone disappears. (00:25:43): It worked for that kid on the Twilight Zone, but it didn't work for me. Shit, everyone's still here. Okay, let's do the podcast interview. Our guest today. Vanessa, I never asked you how to pronounce your name before we came on. Can I try it? Vanessa Ugatti (00:25:58): Go on. Jared Correia (00:25:58): Live? Vanessa Ugatti (00:25:59): Yeah, go on. Jared Correia (00:26:01): Vanessa Ugatti. Vanessa Ugatti (00:26:05): Not too bad. Close. It depends on where you come Jared Correia (00:26:07): From, doesn't it? Vanessa Ugatti (00:26:09): It's an Italian name, so it would be- Jared Correia (00:26:10): How far off was that? Vanessa Ugatti (00:26:12): I mean, you're American, the Brits will say Ugatti, as some people even say Ugatti, and I'd want to cut their heads off because there's no R in it. If you were Italian, you'd say Ugatti, but nobody's Italian here, so we'd just say Ugatti or the American equivalent Jared Correia (00:26:31): Of that. I never pronounce my Rs. I'm from Boston. Okay. I'm going to screw that up again guaranteed, but Vanessa is a legal pricing expert and the creator of the true worth methodology. We'll find more out about that in a second. Vanessa, welcome to the show. Thank you for appearing. Vanessa Ugatti (00:26:51): You are very welcome, Jared. Looking forward to it. Jared Correia (00:26:55): So Vanessa, I don't have a lot of British people on the show, which I would be happy to remedy if you have any friends or neighbors who are interested. So can we go way back to start with? Yeah. Yes. I was on your LinkedIn. You attended something called Purebrook Park County Grammar School. Presume I know nothing about Perbrook. Presume I know nothing about the British educational system, which is true. What is that like? Vanessa Ugatti (00:27:27): Gosh, that is an awful long time ago. Pearbrook Park County Grammar School. So in those days, we had grammar schools and we had secondary modern schools, and secondary modern schools were a lower level than grammar schools. So it was a very good school, and we had a very kind headmaster, and it was a long time ago, say how long, but it was a very kind headmaster, and they had some really great teachers, and we were all so well-behaved. There wasn't really much in the way of corporal Jared Correia (00:27:59): Punishment Vanessa Ugatti (00:27:59): Going on by then, and it was quite a good experience for me, although I didn't go there till I was 13 years old, and other people had started at 11. It's a complicated story, and I don't know that you really want to hear all of that, do you? Jared Correia (00:28:15): Well, how does a British educational system work? Here in the US, we have elementary schools, and we have middle schools, and we have high schools. Is it different over there? Vanessa Ugatti (00:28:25): No, no, it's similar to that, and probably the language has changed since I was at school, but yeah, it's the same sort of thing. Jared Correia (00:28:32): So you graduated from Perbrook Elementary, and then you fell into this role of a pricing advisor, and there's some time in between. So how did you get into doing this? Vanessa Ugatti (00:28:47): Okay. So although my LinkedIn profile says pricing expert, that's because a LinkedIn person said, "You need to put this on the end," I'm really about the mindset, about the self-worth and the confidence, about the psychology of charging. So I almost avoid that whole word pricing because I don't want to be lumped in with all the pricing training people who do the mechanics of charging or the mechanics of pricing and not what I do. So I see myself as standing on my own. So I was already, say 13 years or so ago, coaching professionals around confidence and mindset, helping them feel more confident in what they were doing. But there was a niggle in the back of my mind, Jared, that says something was missing, but I didn't know what it was. So I was on the computer looking for inspiration and I found it. By some quirk of fate, I stumbled across a marketing program for coaches and it said, "You've got to have a niche." And I though, "Well, I've heard about this niching thing, but I have no idea what my niche is, and I certainly don't know how to create one." Anyway, lots of trepidation and fear after quite some time, too much thinking. (00:30:00): Analysis, paralysis and all that. I signed up for the program and in the first workshop they said, "Write down all your interests from your least interest to your greatest." So I scribbled away, can't remember what any of them were, apart from this one subject which appeared on the piece of paper, which was something about charging your worth. But Jared, I had no idea how it had appeared there, but they said to me, "Vanessa, that is marketable." And I said, "Okay, you are the experts. Take a leap of faith." Jared Correia (00:30:29): It was meant to Vanessa Ugatti (00:30:30): Be. (00:30:31): Networking. And who did you see networking? Lawyers and accountants. So I literally, it's quite a long story, so if you want to interrupt me, then do. I literally asked them, "What are your challenges around charging?" They told me. Underestimating, discounting, over servicing. And I though, wow, that's my first bit of evidence. I'm on the right track. But I was literally knew nothing at that point. I was just uncovering it. You know when you're in a car at nighttime and you're driving and all you can see is the little bit of road in front of you with the headlights. That's how the journey was. That's how it started. Jared Correia (00:31:07): Oh, interesting. Yeah. It's a good thing you didn't write something random on that sheet like turtles because we could be having a whole different conversation right now. Vanessa Ugatti (00:31:20): We could. We could. Jared Correia (00:31:22): I think that's interesting. So you actually went out before you started a business and you were just talking to service professionals and trying to figure out their challenges. That was step one for you? Vanessa Ugatti (00:31:34): Yeah. Yeah. I've always done things through the back door. It's never been straightforward. And I think the thing is, because I follow my heart and my intuition, if you like, it just had to be that way. So the next thing was I looked at some clients I'd been working with and I'd already been helping some of them with charging, but I wasn't consciously aware of that. And I talk about consciously and subconsciously a lot because that's a big part of my work, but also is what my journey's been like. And it makes complete sense to me now, of course, if they lack confidence in one area, they're almost bound to lack confidence having those conversations with clients about money because lots of people are uncomfortable with that. And then I decided to shine the spotlight on Numero Una, and guess what I found? Guess what I found? Jared Correia (00:32:26): I'm guessing you didn't think you were charging enough on your own. Is that right? I was Vanessa Ugatti (00:32:31): Utterly clueless. I was utterly Jared Correia (00:32:33): Clueless. I fucking knew it. Vanessa Ugatti (00:32:35): And utterly clueless. And the thing is, Jared, I put that in all my marketing. I was utterly clueless at charging because I didn't understand my value. I'm an empath and empaths just love to help people. And I was embarrassed talking about money. I had everything against me, everything against me. (00:32:57): Yeah. But the thing is, who's the best person to help somebody with something? Somebody who's been through it themselves because they understand the process, don't they? They understand the pain, the emotional pain and all the drama and the trauma that goes with it. So that was like a wake up. Yeah, yeah. A wake up call, if you like. And I realized that my subconscious mind had this niggle, what should we be doing? And this was it. It knew that I needed to solve the problem for myself clearly because it wasn't going to work for me being like that. And so it made complete sense to me. And then there's one. Well, there's a couple of little bits more, both of which are important. Go ahead. You know when you're in bed and you're half awake and half asleep, that sort of time when you feel really drowsy, it's really nice. (00:33:46): Where it's when your conscious mind is asleep, but the subconscious mind is still awake and a formula appeared in my mind and I could see this formula and you perceive it. I don't quite know what the best word is. And it was UV, understand your value plus CV, communicate your value, plus CD, confident delivering fees equals CW charging what you're worth. Oh, Jared Correia (00:34:12): Look at this. This is like Einstein. E equals MC squared. I know. Very Vanessa Ugatti (00:34:16): Nice. I know, but I knew what it meant and I knew it was right even though I couldn't tell you how. I have no idea. But that was how it started. And then I wrote a little with some help. I wrote a little 5,000 little booklet for Amazon called How to Charge Wat Your Worth and Get It. But then when time went on, I discovered that some people weren't even getting paid, which I thought was ridiculous because actually - Yeah, Jared Correia (00:34:45): It's crazy. Vanessa Ugatti (00:34:47): I'm quite a logical person, even though I'm quite emotional, I'm also quite logical. And I though, how can you not get paid? A lawyer's not getting paid. That's ridiculous. So I changed the book to how to get paid your true worth and then created the true worth methodology out of the true worth bit where each letter stands for part of the sales process. Jared Correia (00:35:07): Oh, cool. It seems like you're very accepting of the universe. I am. You're like, I just came up with this and I'm going to go with it. Attorneys don't generally do that is my understanding. Vanessa Ugatti (00:35:18): I'm not an attorney though. Jared Correia (00:35:20): I know. I'm not an Vanessa Ugatti (00:35:20): Attorney. Jared Correia (00:35:22): This is tough for them to understand, I feel like, because a lot of attorneys, I think they would be like, I'm going to logically push through this. I'm going to think about it. But you're just like, "This sounds good. The universe has delivered this to me. Let's roll with it." And that's how you did this true worth thing. Vanessa Ugatti (00:35:39): Yeah. But I'm not going to say it was all plain sailing or easy because it's not being plain sailing and easy at all. And actually it was an emotional rollercoaster, but it was just that, I mean the fear was always there and very strong, but that part was also equally strong and has had to push through. But yes, I'm very much into the universe because the universe is listening. And I see the universe as an extension of the subconscious mind really, because the subconscious mind's incredibly powerful and it knows more about us than we do consciously. Jared Correia (00:36:16): This is going way deeper than I thought it would go. How do you access the subconscious mind? Just in that twilight period or do you have other methods that you use? Vanessa Ugatti (00:36:26): I think it's just been more of a natural, gradual thing. So I don't specifically do something. I don't think, oh, now I'm going to connect with my subconscious mind. I just think it's a way of being where I've understood or I understand that the subconscious mind knows more than I do, and then I work on my intuition. So if something feels good, then go with it. If something doesn't feel good, then don't. And that usually works. I also think that everybody gets gut feelings. Everybody does gut feelings or intuitions, don't they? So the only thing I would say is that when I get a gut feeling or an intuition, I will even say thank you to my subconscious mind for it because I think it's about developing that relationship with that part of yourself. Because if you think about it, we live in a world where we probably, I know we're in different countries, but we probably had similar things taught to us and facts and science and all the rest of it were made more important than intuition and what have you. (00:37:42): But intuition's incredibly powerful. It probably saved people's lives. Jared Correia (00:37:49): I think I need to get more in touch with my subconscious mind in the interim. Yeah. Vanessa Ugatti (00:37:54): Let Jared Correia (00:37:55): Me ask you, why service professionals? Is it because they have the most trouble setting pricing? Why not software vendors? Why'd you settle on those folks? Vanessa Ugatti (00:38:08): Because I don't know anything about software. It took me, well, I don't know anything about software vendors. I mean, really, I don't, but I gravitated towards the law. Obviously they seem to be everywhere on LinkedIn and networking, what have you. But it is a very good question because a few years ago I realized that I have an incredibly strong sense of justice. I don't like things that are not just. And therefore that being drawn to law was a subconscious thing again. And there are a lot of lawyers. I know you say attorneys more, but you use the word lawyer as well, don't Jared Correia (00:38:48): You? We can use them interchangeably. Yeah. We don't use barrister probably as much as you guys do. No, Vanessa Ugatti (00:38:53): No, no. Or solicitor because that's a British thing. Jared Correia (00:38:56): Or solicitor, yes. Vanessa Ugatti (00:38:57): But anyway, attorneys or lawyers, there are an awful lot of them actually who are really heart-led people who went into the law because they want to help. Jared Correia (00:39:05): Yeah. Oh, definitely true. Yeah. Vanessa Ugatti (00:39:07): And so I tend to look for and gravitate towards those people that I see as genuine people. They really care and they're warm, usually warm people. I'm not into cold people. I don't do cold fish. I don't do stiff and starching. I don't do cold fish, Jared. So I think we probably get on. Jared Correia (00:39:31): Lawyers, they're so fun traditionally and historically. All right, let me ask you this. So a lot of lawyers I feel like have imposter syndrome, which they don't have to talk about. Do you find that as well? And do you think that is related to this price setting, fee setting issue? All Vanessa Ugatti (00:39:49): Of it is connected. And I see imposter syndrome as connected with self-worth. And I say self-worth is at the heart of my work and it's at the heart of everything we do, and that's what drives people's behavior. And self-worth is also subconscious. There we are. We're back to that again, aren't we? Beautiful. I see how you Jared Correia (00:40:07): Brought that Vanessa Ugatti (00:40:07): Back. Oh, very clever, isn't it? So people who are very highly technically intelligent people, doesn't mean to say they've got great emotional intelligence, and it doesn't mean to say they understand themselves. (00:40:25): And as human beings, I say we're complex, irrational, and emotional, and that's on a good day. So you could be a brilliant lawyer, and at the same time, you can be a bumbling idiot when it comes to talking to your clients about fees because it's a different skill set and it's a different part of the person. And it's almost like they're not joined up. And I know for myself as a human being that I could come across as really confident in one situation and another situation be thinking, "Oh my God, I don't want to do that." Jared Correia (00:40:54): Something simple. Yeah. No, that's a good point because lawyers are never trained to do any of the pricing stuff. They're just trained to practice law. That's the world they're comfortable in. That's a good point. Vanessa Ugatti (00:41:08): Yeah. Jared Correia (00:41:08): They went to Vanessa Ugatti (00:41:08): Law school and they studied law. They didn't study business, did they? Jared Correia (00:41:13): Lawyers also, some lawyers, not all lawyers, have a knack for taking on really shitty clients. How do you avoid that? Is that just a pricing thing? Is that getting better, generating red flags? What does that look like? Vanessa Ugatti (00:41:29): Yeah, red flags, definitely. So I don't know if you looked at my TrueWorth methodology, but the E part of - Briefly. Jared Correia (00:41:37): You're going to love it. I'm attached to my subconscious mind. I like to experience this stuff in the moment. Just let it wash over Vanessa Ugatti (00:41:44): Me. Yeah, absolutely. So letter E from True Worth stands for eliminate piter clients, which is pain in the A. Do Jared Correia (00:41:58): You? Pita. Yes, pain in the ass. Eliminate, I call it Vanessa Ugatti (00:42:03): Pita because there's only one T. Eliminate. Jared Correia (00:42:06): Maybe that's the British version. I don't know. Vanessa Ugatti (00:42:10): Who cares? I mean, that's what I say. And funnily enough, I have a coaching client at the moment who's Irish, lovely lady, runs her own practice in Ireland, and we've been working together for a while. And one of the characteristics I see a lot of, not just in lawyers, but other people I've worked with too, is people pleasing. Jared Correia (00:42:31): And Vanessa Ugatti (00:42:32): People pleasing is part of the problem of people taking on Paiter clients. There's a lot of Ps in all of that. It's one of the problems. It's part of the whole process of people taking on peiter Jared Correia (00:42:44): Clients. Oh my God, look at alliteration. It's just flowing. I Vanessa Ugatti (00:42:47): Know. Alliteration gone crazy, isn't it? So I help my clients see that those Paiter clients are not good for them, not just financially, but not good for them emotionally because they're the ones who just want to take everything, pay as little as possible, drain energy, and also erode self-confidence and self-worth. And this particular client of mine who I get on with really well, she's dropping all her Pita clients. And the funny thing is when she first started doing it, she felt nervous. She's going, "Oh, I don't know whether I'm going to get any clients now." But then (00:43:33): Good ones started coming in, people who didn't even want to try and push her down on her fees or anything. And she's really getting the hang of it now. And I help people understand what is going on for them and why they're doing it, and then help them guide them towards a new way of doing something. And then they see for themselves actually, they don't need to work with those people. And I'm an idealist, so I say, Jared, wouldn't it be wonderful if everybody who was really good at what they did stop working with Peita clients because where would those Peita clients go? That's a good question. They'd have to start learning, wouldn't they? Jared Correia (00:44:12): Do we care? Vanessa Ugatti (00:44:14): No. We Jared Correia (00:44:16): Don't. You bring up something interesting here because the other side of this coin, I think, is that attorneys are afraid to lose clients. And (00:44:27): That thing you just said, which is like, if I start losing my bad clients, if I start being restrictive about the clients I take on, what if I never get another client? Catastrophic thinking happens all the time in business. And I don't know about you, but whenever I'm like, "I haven't had a new lead in a few days," whenever I have that thought, I have 10 new people that reach out to me. So do you have to stop yourself from having feelings like that? How do you get over that? That feeling of if I reject this person, I'll never get another client, my business is going to fail. Vanessa Ugatti (00:45:06): Yeah. I mean, obviously we've all got that self-talk going on and (00:45:09): We do have to curb it, otherwise it will drive the behavior. And it's the fear because lawyers are very fearful as well, Jared, and I'm sure you know this anyway. So that's what drives the behavior. And this thing of there's a fear of losing clients, there's a fear of work drying up and them never have any work. If they're not really, really busy, then oh my God, I haven't got enough work. And so it's actually about getting them to say, "Can you just stop that for a moment and step back and think, do you want to be a busy fool and doing all this work, but really just landing up stressed at the end of the week or tired or exhausted and having no time for your family? Or would you rather step back and think, actually, I only need this number of clients as I'm charging this for and doing this kind of work, and I'll be better off, but I'll be doing less work. (00:45:57): I won't be quite so busy and I'll have more time to actually reflect on what I want to achieve." So it's about helping them. I guide them. And I'm not a bully, so I'm not bullying people or beating them up or making them feel bad. I do the opposite. I actually make them feel good about who they are and get them to see who they really are and the value they have for their clients. And then they start wanting to actually be more discerning and actually treat themselves better because ultimately it is all about how they treat themselves. And their focus is often on the legal work at the expense of the business coming second and they Jared Correia (00:46:32): Come Vanessa Ugatti (00:46:33): Third. Jared Correia (00:46:34): Without a doubt. And this Vanessa Ugatti (00:46:34): Is where a lot of the problems with mental health, which I presume they have the same sort of things going on in the states Jared Correia (00:46:42): As we Vanessa Ugatti (00:46:42): Do in the UK in the legal profession. Jared Correia (00:46:45): As you know, lawyers have more mental health issues in the general population by a wide margin. And this probably has something to do with it. I like what you said there though about thinking about how many cases do I actually need if I charge at these prices? How many can I slot in? That's a good practical way to think about it. Can we drill down on this a little bit in the sense that, so part of this is taking on the right clients, but part of this is even with the right clients setting boundaries, right? Oh Vanessa Ugatti (00:47:16): God, yes. Jared Correia (00:47:18): Without feeling guilty about it. So beyond having an engagement agreement that says, "I'm going to do this," how do you actually do that from a psychological perspective? Vanessa Ugatti (00:47:29): Yeah, it's about, again, the boundaries thing is totally and utterly connected with people who don't charge properly because they don't usually have boundaries either. I've worked with clients who had zero boundaries. The client could contact them anytime, including when they were going on holiday. I mean, this is nuts, isn't it? Jared Correia (00:47:50): Oh, you see that all time. Vanessa Ugatti (00:47:51): Yeah. Jared Correia (00:47:51): It's crazy. Vanessa Ugatti (00:47:52): Senior people, seriously senior, experienced lawyers who let the client dictate how they operate. But actually, if I'm working with them, I come along and it's like, "Really? Do you really want to be doing that? Well, why didn't you try doing this?" And then they try it and they realize the client isn't going to leave them if they're providing an excellent service. And the boundaries, putting the boundaries in place just allows them to be even more professional with the client. I think the paradox is that the way they behave is causing them a lot of problems, not just financial problems, but problems in general. And actually, if they behave properly, if they have the right conversations, put the right boundaries in place at the right time, et cetera, et cetera, they'll have less problems and they won't lose clients either because the clients will just see them as being more professional anyway. Jared Correia (00:48:49): Can I try something and then just tell me if I have my geography entirely wrong? If you are at the beach at Dorset, you shouldn't be letting your clients ring you. How is that? No. Is there actually a beach there? Was that good? Vanessa Ugatti (00:49:02): Yeah, absolutely. Jared Correia (00:49:02): Okay. Okay. I'm very proud of myself. Simple. Vanessa Ugatti (00:49:05): Several. Jared Correia (00:49:06): Well Vanessa Ugatti (00:49:06): Done. Several beaches. Jared Correia (00:49:09): Beaches Vanessa Ugatti (00:49:10): Everywhere in Dorset. Jared Correia (00:49:13): That was a total guess. Okay. Should attorneys compare their pricing to other lawyers or is that like looking at someone's Instagram posts and seeing how wonderful their life is? Vanessa Ugatti (00:49:29): Well, I don't know. They can. If they want to, they can. But what's better to do is to think, actually, who do I want to work with? What market am I in? What level of service am I providing? And what's the right pricing for that level of service? So the people I work with tend to want to go for premium pricing, but also providing that higher level service. And it's always challenging obviously for people who are doing a service because you say, "Well, we're all doing the same thing, but are you? Are you providing the same service as the Joe Blogs down the road who might be doing it cheaper than you?" So how relevant is the pricing if you don't know really how the person operates? Because clients that I work with, they always seem to be providing an excellent service. I don't want to work with people who are not providing a great service. (00:50:21): I don't want to help people make more money if they're providing a rubbish service. That's not who I am and I'm not going to do that. But if they're providing a superior service to the average people around, they should be charging more. So do they actually, the only reason they need to compare themselves with others is to say, "I need to be higher because my level of service is better." Jared Correia (00:50:42): Oh, that's super interesting. So the first step is figuring out like, "Yeah, I wouldn't have thought of it that way." So you want to figure out if you can provide a premium service that requires a premium price. Would that be fair to say? Yeah. Vanessa Ugatti (00:50:54): Yeah. Okay. If I think about another coaching client who's in commercial property, but she's a consultant sister, I don't think you have consultant solicitors in the US unless you tell me otherwise. So a consultant Jared Correia (00:51:07): Solicitor - What are they called? A consultant solicitor. No, what is Vanessa Ugatti (00:51:10): That? So that's a self-employed attorney, Jared Correia (00:51:15): But Vanessa Ugatti (00:51:16): They're under the umbrella of a firm that is self-employed, a lot of self-employed attorneys under an umbrella. Jared Correia (00:51:24): We have some similar, it's called Enough Castle in the United States. Vanessa Ugatti (00:51:28): Okay. So the firm provides all the compliance and the back office and that kind of thing. So the lawyers themselves are self-employed and they share part of the fee that they get. Jared Correia (00:51:40): Oh, sure. Yeah, that's cool. Vanessa Ugatti (00:51:43): Yeah. And she's only been a consultant solicitor for 12 months and she's utterly flying, but I've been working with her for the last few months. Jared Correia (00:51:52): Well, that's why she's flying, obviously. Yeah, but Vanessa Ugatti (00:51:55): She's also got a lot of good skills. She's got a lot of good interpersonal skills. And one of her key things is let's get the job done quickly and well for the client and not. Sometimes people say they can't get hold of their lawyer or they're too slow responding. Jared Correia (00:52:12): They're probably at the beach in Dorset. Vanessa Ugatti (00:52:14): Yeah, probably at the beach at Dorset. So she'll pick the phone up and she'll be talking to them and running through things and spending time on it and then sending thing in writing. So she's providing a better level of service than most other people. And when she gets referrals from estate agents and what have you, the estate agents might give a referral to a client with three people and her included, but they'll say she's the best because they know that the service she gives will be better and therefore it make them look good. Jared Correia (00:52:47): Gotcha. Vanessa Ugatti (00:52:48): So I think service is really important. Speaking to their clients, picking up the phone, not letting things drag on forever. Yeah. Some really basic stuff can make a huge difference. Well, Jared Correia (00:53:02): That's a good example and I would not necessarily have tackled it that way. Okay. I got two more questions for you. How often should an attorney or a law firm look to reset their pricing? Is that an annual thing? Is it just when it makes sense? Vanessa Ugatti (00:53:18): It's definitely got to be a minimum of annually, especially Jared Correia (00:53:21): Now. Vanessa Ugatti (00:53:22): I mean, cost of living, same everywhere, isn't it? Where's it going up, up, up, up, up? It's nonstop, isn't it? Do you know what I have to - Jared Correia (00:53:31): Not helping. Vanessa Ugatti (00:53:33): No. I have to share with you, one client I worked with years ago, he hadn't put his prices up in 10 years until I came along. Jared Correia (00:53:43): I see that all the time. It's crazy. Ever hear of inflation? Vanessa Ugatti (00:53:48): Yeah, Jared Correia (00:53:49): Exactly. Annually at least. As a minimum, I Vanessa Ugatti (00:53:52): Would say. Jared Correia (00:53:53): Last question for you. This has been very instructive. Let's say somebody's like, "This all sounds good. I'm a little overwhelmed. I don't know where to start." Is there something somebody can do who's listening today to kind of get back on track? Vanessa Ugatti (00:54:07): Buy my book. Jared Correia (00:54:10): Oh, well played. We haven't Vanessa Ugatti (00:54:11): Even talked about that. Jared Correia (00:54:11): Well played. Tell me about the book. Tell me about the book. Vanessa Ugatti (00:54:15): How to Get Paid Your True Worth Ethically Without Selling Your Soul. This is 13 years since I started. It's a proper book. It's full of practical information. Jared Correia (00:54:26): It's a physical book that you're holding. Vanessa Ugatti (00:54:28): It's a physical, Jared Correia (00:54:29): Physical - Not subconscious in any way, like an actual paperback. Vanessa Ugatti (00:54:33): Yeah. Yeah. And it's a hardbacker version as well. I saw the hardback version the other day. It's absolutely beautiful. And I mean, I've written it, but it's 13 years of experience down into this book. It's very easy for people to read. It's not heavy duty or anything like that, but it's also very valuable. So Jared Correia (00:54:57): I would say - That will definitely be in the show notes. Pick that up, everybody. Yeah. So pick up the book, read through the book. The ethical part of it is interesting to me because I - Yeah, me too. When attorneys talk to me about they don't want to be salespeople, I don't want to be a used car salesman. I don't feel right about that. Is that kind of what you're getting at? Vanessa Ugatti (00:55:19): Yeah, because the ethical bit for me is you are providing a great level of service and you are charging according to that. That's, to me, ethical. You're not trying to rip clients off. You're not trying to do anything underhand. And actually, I know lawyers don't like the word selling and you don't have to be a used car salesman. And let used car salesman be that, but you are an expert, you are a trusted advisor, you are somebody who has something of value to give to your clients, and you need to charge for that accordingly. And the ethical bit is making sure that the level of service you provide warrants what you're charging. So for me, the word's in there because I like that, and I use that word a lot in my marketing as well. I would not work with somebody who I didn't think was ethical or a firm that I didn't think was ethical. (00:56:16): I wouldn't. Jared Correia (00:56:17): Vanessa, this was fun. Thank you. But we're about to have more fun if you'll stick around for one more segment, will you? Vanessa Ugatti (00:56:25): I will too. Yeah. All Jared Correia (00:56:26): Right. We'll be right back, everybody. Welcome back, everybody. It's the counter program. Vanessa's already laughing. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics. I want to explore a greater death than I guess. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Vanessa, welcome back. Vanessa Ugatti (00:56:50): Welcome back to you too. Oh, you make me laugh, Jared. Jared Correia (00:56:56): I appreciate that. No one ever welcomes me back to my own show. I like it. Okay. Vanessa, as the world's foremost expert on value, that's what I'm telling you, that's what I'm calling you, we have literally the perfect game for you. I don't like the name we've been using for the segment, so I'm changing it. I'm calling it the Internet Pricing Cavalcade of Fun and Danger, which sounds a lot better than what we were doing before. But the rules are simple, the same as they've always been. I'm going to show you a picture of and read you a description from something you can actually buy online through a website called thisiswhyimbroke.com. You just have to guess the price correctly from three options. Oh Vanessa Ugatti (00:57:44): Gosh. Jared Correia (00:57:45): Are you ready? Vanessa Ugatti (00:57:46): I'm ready. Jared Correia (00:57:47): Vanessa, we have a British twist on our first question. The building you are seeing right now is called Villa Sky Fall. Here's the description. Snag this newly built and James Bond inspired Delray Beach, Florida compound. And you'll also receive the actual Aston Martin from the Sky Fall movie. Daniel Craig would be so jealous because a 309 inch TV screen and a hidden poker lounge apparently weren't enough commitment to the bid. Nine bedrooms, zero subtlety, one very expensive fan theory. How much is the James Bond mansion in Delray Beach? 27 million, 56 million or $85 million? Chump change. 27, 56, or 85. What do you think? Vanessa Ugatti (00:58:44): Oh, let's go for 56 million, Jared. Just pick the middle one. Oh, Jared Correia (00:58:51): My trick worked. It is $85 Vanessa Ugatti (00:58:54): Million Jared Correia (00:58:57): For this, which I think is nuts. It is ridiculous. For real estate prices. I feel like it should be lower than that. That's nuts. Good guess though. And you've got plenty of time to redeem yourself. Vanessa Ugatti (00:59:09): I was tempted with the 85 and I though, no, that's ridiculous. There you are. Same thinking as you really. I Jared Correia (00:59:16): Thought it was crazy. I was shocked when I saw that number. Let's do something a little bit more reasonable. We'll do one for the people. These are Twister bedsheets, just regular bedsheets with a Twister pattern on them. I don't know if Twister's a popular game in the UK or not. Vanessa Ugatti (00:59:35): I don't know. Jared Correia (00:59:36): Have you played Twister before? No. (00:59:39): Okay. Let me explain the game to you. You spin a wheel and it will tell you to put either your right or left hand or your right or left foot onto a certain color circle. And so you play this game with multiple people so everybody gets tangled up. This This is a slightly different version. Here's the description. Turn bedtime into playtime with Twister bedsheets. These sheets gloriously transform your mattress into a naughty full size Twister play mat so you can enjoy the classic game, the way it was truly meant to be played nude. I don't know if it was truly meant to be played that way, honestly. If one were to buy Twister bedsheets, would the price be $79.90, $99.90, or $129.90? 79.90, 99.90, or 1.29.90. What do you think? It's a tough one. Vanessa Ugatti (01:00:51): Yeah, it's tough for me because it's dollars as well. Jared Correia (01:00:56): And you're like, "I've never played this game or even heard Vanessa Ugatti (01:00:58): Of that." I've never played this game. It's the same dollars. And if I go for the largest Jared Correia (01:01:02): One - And it's in dollars, that's right. I should have done past. It can't Vanessa Ugatti (01:01:04): Be the largest one again. So I'm going to go for the 99. Jared Correia (01:01:10): Oh, 79. 79.90. I liked how you were using logic here Vanessa Ugatti (01:01:15): Though. I was thinking, I'll go for the lower one now I was thinking, oh no, that's too low. Shouldn't change your mind. This goes to prove that you shouldn't change your mind about your price. So when you decide on a price - Your subconscious. You should stick with it. Yeah. Jared Correia (01:01:30): Right. Vanessa Ugatti (01:01:30): Yeah. Jared Correia (01:01:31): I think that's really expensive for Twister bedsheets. Here's what I'll do. I'll send you a copy of Twister out your way, the traditional game so you can experience it. All right. Our next one - Oh, another one. Is called. We've got six of these. God. This is the life - I've got to get one Vanessa Ugatti (01:01:53): Right surely. Jared Correia (01:01:55): Oh yeah. I'm sure you will. Famous last words. This is the LifePod survival capsule. Look at that thing. It's glorious. Survive the inevitable apocalypse with a few friends with the W01. This floating marine grade aluminum capsule shrugs off tsunami's floods and dam failures with a self-writing hull that keeps you upright when mother nature rains on your parade. This could be right in your front yard for when the flood comes. 46,000, 88,000, 121,000. 46, 88, 121. Vanessa Ugatti (01:02:41): God. I mean, I couldn't even imagine what was involved in all of that. I haven't made any - I'll tell you what, this looks - I haven't made any lately. Jared Correia (01:02:54): This looks safer than the titan submersible thing that they were going down to the Titanic on. You're just floating above the water. It looks very comfortable. 46,000, 86,000, 121,000. 121. Any price of bargain. 46. What a deal. You could go out and grab this tomorrow. If it starts raining really heavy, you don't even have to worry at all. Vanessa Ugatti (01:03:16): I'm a third Jared Correia (01:03:17): One Vanessa Ugatti (01:03:18): Wrong. Jared Correia (01:03:20): You've got three more chances here. I got three more chances. I believe in you. I believe in you. Vanessa Ugatti (01:03:23): I've got to get one right. Otherwise, I Jared Correia (01:03:27): Might cry. Our next. Oh, don't cry. We've never had anyone cry at a show before. Our next item, up forbid, is the denim print swim briefs. This is a little something we derive from the American South. Keep it country. When you visit your local watering hole by hitting the water in these denim print swim briefs, these fashionable briefs are styled to look like a pair of impossibly short shorts, which we call Daisy Dukes here in America, that leave little to the imagination. Look at this dude. He looks very comfortable. Are those real jeans? Who knows? Perfect for the swimming hole. What would one pay for these denim short shorts? A special as possible. Right. To match the amount of fabric used. Is it 13.99, 69.99 or 89.99? Vanessa Ugatti (01:04:23): What was the first one? Jared Correia (01:04:24): Swimming trunks, 39.99. God, Vanessa Ugatti (01:04:26): That was too much. Jared Correia (01:04:27): 69.99 or 89.99. I'm going Vanessa Ugatti (01:04:30): To go for the first one because that's even too much anyway. Jared Correia (01:04:33): Ridiculous. Oh, look at this. Look at this. Your subconscious has guided you to your first correct answer. Oh, good. Congratulations. I wish I had an air horn or something I could utilize to celebrate. Vanessa Ugatti (01:04:49): Well, I still think they're Jared Correia (01:04:50): Being ripped Vanessa Ugatti (01:04:50): Off if you'd pardon the pun. I think they're being ripped off at 39.99 for that. Jared Correia (01:04:55): I agree. I think it's a little expensive. Vanessa Ugatti (01:04:58): But I'm giving myself a tick. Jared Correia (01:05:01): You can rescue yourself here, and if you get these last two right, you will have gotten half of the questions right. I'm personally impressed. Okay. The next one is unpoppable bubble wrap. Here's the description. Unpoppable bubble wrap? What kind of joyless bastard could have come up with such a cruel thing designed in the deepest pits of hell? This new type of packing material features bubbles that are connected by chains, making them nearly impossible to pop. This is just the destruction of joy right here. Can you get impossible to pop bubble wrap for $50 per roll, $150 per roll, or $250 per roll, 5150 or 250? Oh Vanessa Ugatti (01:05:56): God. I mean, who's ever heard of such a thing? Who makes this stuff up? Jared Correia (01:06:01): Just me. These are actually used in packaging now. This is a new thing. I learned this yesterday myself as well. Vanessa Ugatti (01:06:09): Unpoppable bubble wrap is just ridiculous. Jared Correia (01:06:15): It is. 50, 150, 250. What do you think? No pressure. Vanessa Ugatti (01:06:25): 50. Jared Correia (01:06:27): Close, 150. Vanessa Ugatti (01:06:28): Can you believe that? I was going between the two again, would you believe? Jared Correia (01:06:34): 150 just to give yourself probably a terrible headache and just feel terrible about yourself trying to pop this bubble wrap and unable to. All right, we got one more for you. I don't know if I saved the best for last, but I enjoyed this one, which are the dinosaur chicken nugget throw pillows. This is the real deal. Decorate your couch with a dinosaur chicken nugget and feel absolutely no regret about it. The super soft plush pillow comes in small, medium, and large and works as a cuddly buddy or room decor and is genuinely impossible to explain to guests. I know. Are dinosaur chicken nuggets popular in the UK? People fucking love them out here. Oh. Vanessa Ugatti (01:07:20): Never heard Jared Correia (01:07:21): Of them. All right. We're going to have to ship you some stuff post-show. We've got unpoppable bubble wrap. We've got dinosaur chicken nuggets. You're going to want to move to the US. All right. Can I snag a set of dinosaur chicken nugget pillows, small size for $50? I get all three. I get the T-Rex, I get the Stegosaurus, I get the Brontosaurus. 50 bucks, 100 bucks or 150 bucks for a set of small pillows, 50, 100 or 150. What do you think? Vanessa Ugatti (01:07:58): It's Jared Correia (01:08:01): A good point. Good point. Vanessa Ugatti (01:08:04): But Jared Correia (01:08:04): People Vanessa Ugatti (01:08:04): Are so daft, aren't they? But I'm going to go for the 50 and be wrong again, no doubt. Jared Correia (01:08:09): Good choice. Good choice. 50 bucks. What a deal. Vanessa Ugatti (01:08:13): Oh, so I was Jared Correia (01:08:14): Right Vanessa Ugatti (01:08:15): Then. Jared Correia (01:08:16): You were. Vanessa Ugatti (01:08:17): Oh, well, two out of six then. Jared Correia (01:08:19): I'll take it. That's not bad. So I have to say, I didn't even consider this when you came on, but now I feel bad because I didn't put this into euros or pounds. Whatever is being used in the UK. We Vanessa Ugatti (01:08:31): Use pounds still. No, we're still on our own. Jared Correia (01:08:35): Brexit is still a thing? Vanessa Ugatti (01:08:37): Oh, well, it's too late now, isn't it? We've done it. Jared Correia (01:08:42): Okay. Vanessa - No happy, but what can we Vanessa Ugatti (01:08:44): Do? Jared Correia (01:08:46): It's been a real treat. You've been a great sport. You have some gifts coming your way and we'll have to do this again sometime. Vanessa Ugatti (01:08:54): Yes, I would love to. That was just so much fun. In fact, that's the most fun podcast I've ever done. Jared Correia (01:09:01): Oh, oh my God. All right. Clip it, Evan. All right. Thank you. We'll talk again soon. Thanks everybody. Thanks for our guest today, Vanessa Ugatti, who is a legal pricing expert and the creator of the True Worth Methodology. To learn more about Vanessa and her work, visit vanessaugatti.com. V-A-N-E-S-S-A U-G-A-T-T-I, all one word.com. VanessaUgatti.com. If you spell it wrong in Google, it'll pick up the right site. Now, because I'll always be a '90s kid who checked into hotels under the pseudonym Jesus Jones, but whose true passion is Burning CDs for anyone who would listen, I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every podcast episode that I record where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. For this week's playlist, of course, it's some of my very favorite Marvin Gaye songs, from standers to soul, to baby making music. (01:10:02): We've got a lot to choose from, and it's all sponsored by the California Raisins. Actually, those wrinkly pruned fucks didn't sponsor anything. That's one thing about a raisin. They're for sure always out for themselves. They forget what it's like to be a grape. Join us next time when I bet you're wondering how I knew.